Fallout Mafia - Commonwealth Edition (Day 8)

[Ankamius]

VOTE: Impossibear

[Ankamius]

Good morning

[Ankamius]

UNVOTE: Impossibear

Vote: verylazy

[Ankamius]

Unvote: verylazy

VOTE: Wikly

[Ankamius]

You're just jealous that you're not one of the cool kids.

[Ankamius]

VOTE: Ankamius

I know the "do little until later" is kind of your thing, but I would think by now you'd have at least commented on something worthwhile. So got any thoughts to share?

Yes, I don't think the miller claim conversation is going to get anywhere.

But really, I'm waiting on something specific before I start analyzing things. I want to test something.

[Ankamius]

VOTE: Ankamius

I know the "do little until later" is kind of your thing, but I would think by now you'd have at least commented on something worthwhile. So got any thoughts to share?

Yes, I don't think the miller claim conversation is going to get anywhere.

But really, I'm waiting on something specific before I start analyzing things. I want to test something.

Was the Wilky vote part of what you're testing?

Nope, it's unrelated to my votes.

[Ankamius]

Ok, tomorrow I'm going to get myself caught up in this game.

I promise.

[Ankamius]

Also, wheeeeeeeeeee

UNVOTE: wilky
VOTE: verylazy

[Ankamius]

This looks like one of those games where I'll read through and realize I have reads on two slots.

[Ankamius]

BTW I'm catching up as we speak

I'll have something a bit later on

[Ankamius]

UNVOTE: verylazy
VOTE: Ventriloquist

I'm still catching up, but I'm far enough to have a strong enough townread on Ouroboros that I'm comfortable sheeping them for right now.

[Ankamius]

I'm caught up. Let me merge all my thoughts together and I'll have my results out shortly.

[Ankamius]

Kaede Akamatsu

MariaR
Ouroboros

Wraith
Nero Cain
hebichan
Impossibear (EspeciallyTheLies + Jingle)

Dunnstral
davesaz

REALMEN ONLY JUNGLE
Ventriloquist

verylazy
Wilky

Alchemist21
Tchill12
Ramcius

ManWithNoName

UNVOTE: Ventriloquist
VOTE: ManWithNoName

[Ankamius]

MariaR + Ouroboros I have a hard time seeing as scum this game.

The {Wraith, Nero Cain, hebichan, Impossibear} set are close enough together in read strength that they might as well be right on top of each other.

Dunnstral + davesaz are slots that I either can't really read or have conflicting thoughts on, but I see as more likely town than not.

REALMEN + Ventriloquist are the null line.

verylazy + Wilky are slots I've had stronger scumreads on, but they've improved over time.

Everything below those two slots I can easily see being scum this game.

[Ankamius]

Also, ETL, just as a quick note because this is directly relevant to me: how do you generally get your reads? I remember you being a fairly strong player but I want to get an idea as to why our general thoughts have been polar opposites this game.

I still lean townish on the overall analysis, but I want to get this sorted out sooner rather than later since it would do a lot to prevent me from gaining paranoia on your slot later in the game.

[Ankamius]

RC

All I really want to know in light of that is how much weight you put behind the points on him you've already stated.

I might be willing to go back to sheeping, but I want to be sure that it's worth not gunning for a slot that I think is highly likely to flip scum.

[Ankamius]

Kaede Akamatsu

MariaR
Ouroboros

Wraith
Nero Cain
hebichan
Impossibear (EspeciallyTheLies + Jingle)

Dunnstral
davesaz

REALMEN ONLY JUNGLE
Ventriloquist

verylazy
Wilky

Alchemist21
Tchill12
Ramcius

ManWithNoName

UNVOTE: Ventriloquist
VOTE: ManWithNoName

MariaR + Ouroboros I have a hard time seeing as scum this game.

The {Wraith, Nero Cain, hebichan, Impossibear} set are close enough together in read strength that they might as well be right on top of each other.

Dunnstral + davesaz are slots that I either can't really read or have conflicting thoughts on, but I see as more likely town than not.

REALMEN + Ventriloquist are the null line.

verylazy + Wilky are slots I've had stronger scumreads on, but they've improved over time.

Everything below those two slots I can easily see being scum this game.

This is pretty underwhelming. You could have explained at least some of these reads. I wasn't expecting too much but for all I can tell this could be a list that was just RNG'd.

VOTE: Ankamius

Why do I need to explain them?

[Ankamius]

Either you don't remember me as well as you think you do or you're purposely ignoring the fundamental core of how I play the game.

[Ankamius]

ETL, I don't have time right now, but I'll have time later today.

[Ankamius]

Can we chill out with the 1v1? I'd like to catch up today, thanks.

[Ankamius]

I'm not scum reading manwithnoname that hard right now, he seems to be scumhunting, which I don't think many scum players try to play up this early day one.

I dunno, I feel vent more at the moment, but you could case him if you like. I could probably be swayed.

Hebi, who specifically are you referring to here?

[Ankamius]

And by referring to, I mean asking.

[Ankamius]

@Ank

I remember you having it in your sig where someone said you're the only person they knew who could do nothing all game then solve it out of nowhere, but I didn't think it was so literal.

At the very least I want an explanation for why you're voting who you're voting.

here you go

[Ankamius]

Hey Ghost, while you're here:

I'm hard-townreading your slot due to RC, but why do the posts in

your

half of the hydra feel so weird to me? Is there something about your combined play that I'm missing or am I sensing playstyle clashes?

[Ankamius]

Happy Scumday Ank!

While I appreciate the long-overdue attempt at content, there wasn't actually much "content" there, tbh. I'm gonna need more explanation on those reads, not just how strong they are.

I'm actually not willing to go into every single read I have here right now, but I'm open to discussing specific ones if you have a preference.

Also, ETL, just as a quick note because this is directly relevant to me: how do you generally get your reads? I remember you being a fairly strong player but I want to get an idea as to why our general thoughts have been polar opposites this game.

I've actually posted about this in mafia discussion, but basically I prefer to townhunt first as scumreads take much longer for me to develop. The other reason is because being able to work together with your town reads makes for a very strong town that is tough to breakup outside of straight killing the members of the townblock, and can spell doom for the scumteam.

Which thoughts in particular are we "polar opposites" on? Let's talk about them.

Reference Post

Early Alchemist Posts: A big source of my scumread on Alchemist came from these posts, actually. I'm not liking the way he came out onto the miller point so fast after the game started; I especially do not like his answer to Ghost regarding davesaz' play since I don't remember him ever being particularly active or a big player in the game he's in; him specifically focusing on him not being scum pings in light of that. I really didn't like #21 either.

Early Kaede+MariaR Interactions: Opposite reaction here too; this is where my MariaR townread started, specifically #35; something about the early miller talks feels way off and I liked the attempt to push discussion away from that.

Alchemist #63: This is a big one; Alchemist hit a huge scumvibe with this post, although primarily combined with his #55 (which I independently found scummy). Alchemist hasn't felt genuine in these posts at all, I've been getting posturing vibes off these posts if anything.

Ouroboros #71: This is the beginning of the Ouroboros townread for me; this happens a

lot

throughout the game so far, but there's been a lot of instances where I have a reaction to a specific post and see an RC post detailing that exact same thought 1/3 down the page. In this particular instance, RC misspoke; he was referring to the multitude of people having him claim first after the second miller claim, and the post RC is referring to looks like a huge backpedal, like he's realizing he just fucked up.

What the shit is this...: This is a playstyle quirk I use; it has a very specific purpose that pays off very well when I get the reaction I want from it. It mostly didn't this game, sadly. There's another subpoint in here that achieves the same thing, but I don't want to reveal exactly what it is because then it won't work anymore.

Post 101 VC: Up to this point, of the four people on the wagon that aren't me, one is conftown and the other two are the people I have strong townreads on. As an aside, I wasn't scumreading Wilky at that time.

Post 163: I 100% agreed with RC here. The votes weren't necessarily there, but MWWN's trajectory onto the wagon, Ramcius' one-liner shading the claim, and davesaz suddenly hopping on all within a very short window raised some eyebrows with me too.

Overall, I think the issue you're having with RC is the same one I'm having with you; I think the analysis looks townish because I don't really see any scum motivation from it... but I don't understand the points you're making themselves.

Post 171: I agree with this assessment, all I can really add is that I think all of Ramcius' posts around this spot look really bad.

MariaR 259: I agree here too, but I actually think it's just her falling into the Nero-is-wrong-therefore-scum trap. I can't follow like 80% of what Nero posts in every game we play and I've probably fallen into that same trap before. I've mostly learned to read him through other ways but I'm suspecting MariaR doesn't have a whole lot of experience with him.

Post 266: I think this entire exchange between the two has been pretty pointless. I don't see why Nero's posting there is any more sensical than MariaR's, honestly.

Post 301: One of the instances where I disagreed with RC; I've generally agreed with his scumreads and not his townreads this game.

[Ankamius]

Also, thank you ETL!

[Ankamius]

And how exactly do you play the game?? You asked me about my process, I think it's only fair you discuss yours.

My playstyle is really difficult to explain, but I'll try my best.

If I can generally grasp what scum is trying to do pretty easily, then I try to pair people's actions against that and see who most consistently matches it.
If I am seeing scum influence throughout the game but can't piece it together very well, then I do the same, but it's a lot more jagged and my reads usually shift around a lot.
If I can't tell what scum are doing at all (or there's so much noise that it's completely hidden), then I'm probably either deathtunneling random slots or lurking for weeks on end.

I don't want to go into too much more detail; I have a lot of tricks I use to help brute force people to give me more of the above, but they're the types of things that become a lot more difficult to use once they're directly known.

Generally though, I withhold information because it's a lot easier to fit actions into a narrative if you know what the narrative is. I've found that I tend to get the lynches I want much more often when I dance around the perimeter of my reads and prod at it; I don't usually make cases or go into scumreads too often outside of gut or similar because generally that's all I have; anything more than that just gives them more possibilities to find an out.

[Ankamius]

Alright, I think the huge 1v1fest starts shortly after that. I skimmed it before, but is it worth reading through again? I don't want to spend all day reading through this if it's going to result in a lot of nothing.

[Ankamius]

I just got home.

What's up?

[Ankamius]

Ok, while I go through the rest of these, here's the first bit:

Early Alchemist Posts: A big source of my scumread on Alchemist came from these posts, actually. I'm not liking the way he came out onto the miller point so fast after the game started; I especially do not like his answer to Ghost regarding davesaz' play since I don't remember him ever being particularly active or a big player in the game he's in; him specifically focusing on him not being scum pings in light of that. I really didn't like #21 either.

Ok, so, my impression of Alchemist's first vote was RVS-ish. He'll have to confirm that or not. The fact that he moved it to Ouroboros pretty quickly tells me he wasn't that committed to it in the first place, especially after thinking about it for a bit, which it looks like given the explanation in 9.

Regarding the bit about Dave being active or not, I'm confused because Alchemist's response says that Dave

doesn't

post as much. Did I miss something there?

What didn't you like about 21?

Lemme put all of Alchemist's early posts here before I go into it:

Spoiler:

Hmm...

To trust the miller claim or not? I feel like Dave is one of the few people I could hear that from and be highly inclined to believe him. I've seen him deliberatley withhold his SK kill to look like a 1-shot vig in a game, so claiming Miller as scum doesn't seem like his brand of gambit.

VOTE: Ouroboros

I can always come back to Dave if necessary.

There we go! It's not often I break out this avi.

Miller claims in first post are pretty standard.

VOTE: Alchemist

I know they're standard for when you are actually a Miller. I also know scum can gambit the Miller claim. I'm basing my belief of which this was based on what I know of Dave, which is that he likes to stay under the radar and avoid detection, and a Miller claim does the opposite of staying under the radar.

@hydrae: Signing your posts would be much appreciated.

Consider it done.

Ghost

@Alchemist

- I, personally, have never played with Dave before, so I have to ask, is his preference for staying under the radar something he does regardless of alignment?

@Dave

- Can you attest to this behavioral preference as something you do, regardless of alignment?

He's not going to post as much as most regardless because he's busy a lot irl, but I'm saying that he would claim Miller as scum because it puts all eyes on him and as scum he's the type of person who would hold back on his own killing power to keep himself hidden. I don't think his scum gambits would be of the attention grabbing sort.

Ooh a Miller claim right out of the gates.

I vote to policy it.

If there absolutely has to be a policy lynch on Dave I think it would be better to be on D2. If a vig exists they can shoot Dave tonight and save us the lynch.

A lot of my issue with these posts is that a lot of what he posts doesn't look really necessary.

My issue with Alchemist's posts here is that I don't understand why he would need to post what he has.

I didn't actually catch onto this until I read #18, but I found it really weird that he is putting in the extra effort to explain why he doesn't believe the miller claim is scum.

In #9, he makes a show out of explaining that dave is unlikely to make this kind of play as scum; the extent he goes to is unnecessary for how early it is.
#14 reinforces that; he did get blowback from Ouroboros about that exact same reason, but otherwise he is going to an unusual level of detail in explaining this read when it hasn't come up in any way by any other slot so far.
#18, again, reinforces that. Ghost asked if dave is a low-key player as both town and scum, and alchemist answers that question... right before once again justifying the reason he doesn't think davesaz would do it as scum.

It's a total dissonance from #21, where he's already compromising on having to remove the slot after literally

one

person brought up the idea.

It's most likely not super indicative unless one of them flips scum, but the way alchemist goes about this looks really posturey. #21 is independently scummy outside of it, though.

[Ankamius]

Early Kaede+MariaR Interactions: Opposite reaction here too; this is where my MariaR townread started, specifically #35; something about the early miller talks feels way off and I liked the attempt to push discussion away from that.

Jingle is actually in agreement with you on that, and since my first post on the interaction, I have her as pretty null. I like your point about trying to push discussion elsewhere. I do think if both millers are town, scum would benefit greatly from using it to justify votes/lynch options.

Alchemist #63: This is a big one; Alchemist hit a huge scumvibe with this post, although primarily combined with his #55 (which I independently found scummy). Alchemist hasn't felt genuine in these posts at all, I've been getting posturing vibes off these posts if anything.

I think 55 is pretty null... Talk to me about what pinged you on 63. Is it just the speculation re: scum miller or is there something else?

ETL

I know you didn't specifically ask for my opinion on it, but I scumread #55 mainly because of the tone shift compared to the davesaz claim. It read like he was completely thrown off by this second miller claim, which is reinforced by #63 where it feels like he's trying to look at it from square one again. It looks like he was prepared for a miller claim by davesaz, but wasn't expecting two.

[Ankamius]

I understand what you're seeing here and I want to gutread Alchemist scum but meta very strongly indicates that this is his townplay.

Can you substantiate this for me?

[Ankamius]

Ok, which games clearly show the difference most easily?

[Ankamius]

I'm here if anybody needs me specifically for something.

I'll be catching up in the meantime.

[Ankamius]

Also updated readslist when I done because changes etc.

[Ankamius]

Also maybe an attempt at grammar

That might happen too

[Ankamius]

I dunno, still gut feel is that there's something weird in your read trajectories...
If i could with certainty say that means you're scum I'd have voted you by now.

Oh while you're here and I'm reminded;

If you are who I think you are, it's strange you haven't interacted with me at all (unless the anonymity is the reason why). Are you willing to discuss reads at all?

[Ankamius]

Hey Ghost, while you're here:

I'm hard-townreading your slot due to RC, but why do the posts in

your

half of the hydra feel so weird to me? Is there something about your combined play that I'm missing or am I sensing playstyle clashes?

Huh. I reached this point in the game again and I don't have that feeling anymore.

That's probably an indication that my overall read has shifted and I need to flesh out where that places everyone again.

[Ankamius]

MANread of the day:

ankamius is town

Serious question: Do you have prior experience playing with me?

[Ankamius]

Ok, maybe. I could see this line of reasoning. I personally didn't get that when I read his ISO. I'll re-review I guess. I'm trying to figure out why people are so gung ho about this wagon. Like, is it something you'd need to look really deeply to find? Because.. nothing stood out to me the way it apparently is for you and Ouro.

For me, I've seen scum trying to directly engage with the person scumreading them and try to discredit the validity of the read or try to reason their way out of it. My memory might be a bit hazy example that came to my mind reading Vent's posts was SerraPaladin's posts in the 2016 Team Trap Mafia where he said the player who was scumreading them was doing it for reasons other than the content of their posts. I know Vent's not making that same exact argument but the nature of their defense feels like it comes from that same kind of mindset.

Wrt to my Ank vote, I've seen more content from them as both alignments tbh. It's been a while since I've played with them iirc, but how they're approaching this game doesn't sit right with me and the lack of any explanations makes it harder to actually solidify the read. I'll admit it's a read subject to change but if I have to strongarm some content from them I will.

Serious question: Why me specifically?

[Ankamius]

See this is the kind of post I've been wanting. It also looks like you only refused my demands for content because you're scumreading me since you're willing to give them to Impossibear in your Town reads. Anyway, more like these please.

VOTE: Ventriloquist

I've been very cold towards your demands because of not only my initial read on you, but parts of your engagement on me reads manipulative.

This post in particular is very difficult to quantify in any sense, regardless of context from your other posts or not. It factors into my other question from you, but why did you completely drop this after spending so much of your time and effort trying to brute force info out of me?

[Ankamius]

Kaede Akamatsu

MariaR
Ouroboros

Wraith
Nero Cain
hebichan
Impossibear (EspeciallyTheLies + Jingle)

Dunnstral
davesaz

REALMEN ONLY JUNGLE
Ventriloquist

verylazy
Wilky

Alchemist21
Tchill12
Ramcius

ManWithNoName

Kaede Akamatsu

MariaR

Nero Cain
Impossibear (EspeciallyTheLies + Jingle)
Ouroboros

hebichan
Ramcius
Wilky

REALMEN ONLY JUNGLE
verylazy

Wraith
Dunnstral
davesaz
Alchemist21

ManWithNoName
Ventriloquist

Tchill12

I think this is roughly where I'm at now; I'd kind of like to hammer more of these into place since this game has gotten really hard to read over the past ten or so pages.

[Ankamius]

Are we going to tunnel Vent for the rest of the day?

[Ankamius]

Ok, I'll prod dodge until day two then.

[Ankamius]

I think a few of Vent's posts after this whole tunnel started were icky, but that's... pretty much it.

I'm against the tunnel because I think it's going to be a net negative for the rest of the game. Scumflips by themselves are useless and could even benefit scum in the worst scenarios.

[Ankamius]

Oh I should probably clarify this:

My scumreads condensed down; Tchill is actually in the same spot in my reads as he was in my first one, but everyone else shifted around to push him to the bottom.

[Ankamius]

Do I need to show you examples of when I abused an early scumflip to my advantage as scum?

Trust me, that's not even close to a weird statement for me to make.

[Ankamius]

I think day 1 scumlynches are a net negative for town unless they're way ahead of where they're supposed to be relative to the amount of information they have.

This is not that type of situation at all because this Vent-push has drowned out 80% of the game. Even if Vent does flip scum, where does that get us, exactly? Limited information based on associations towards that slot and very little else directly, and less indirect information because this push was brute forced through.

[Ankamius]

Do I need to show you examples of when I abused an early scumflip to my advantage as scum?

Trust me, that's not even close to a weird statement for me to make.

So, you think this town is easy to abuse for scum?

I misread the question, but it still applies. One very loud voice and a lot of quiet or moderate voices is a very weak town, yes.

[Ankamius]

I think day 1 scumlynches are a net negative for town unless they're way ahead of where they're supposed to be relative to the amount of information they have.

This is not that type of situation at all because this Vent-push has drowned out 80% of the game. Even if Vent does flip scum, where does that get us, exactly? Limited information based on associations towards that slot and very little else directly, and less indirect information because this push was brute forced through.

What you suggesting then? Flip someone else? Who have enough associations and is scummy enough for it?

I see you complaining how bad Vent scumflip would be, but i don't see you doing something substantial to change it, do you really need RC permission to push someone else?

Also, little known fact, but you there are other methods to find scums than just rely on postflip associations

Oh, really.

I dunno, still gut feel is that there's something weird in your read trajectories...
If i could with certainty say that means you're scum I'd have voted you by now.

Oh while you're here and I'm reminded;

If you are who I think you are, it's strange you haven't interacted with me at all (unless the anonymity is the reason why). Are you willing to discuss reads at all?

Hey Ghost, while you're here:

I'm hard-townreading your slot due to RC, but why do the posts in

your

half of the hydra feel so weird to me? Is there something about your combined play that I'm missing or am I sensing playstyle clashes?

Huh. I reached this point in the game again and I don't have that feeling anymore.

That's probably an indication that my overall read has shifted and I need to flesh out where that places everyone again.

MANread of the day:

ankamius is town

Serious question: Do you have prior experience playing with me?

Ok, maybe. I could see this line of reasoning. I personally didn't get that when I read his ISO. I'll re-review I guess. I'm trying to figure out why people are so gung ho about this wagon. Like, is it something you'd need to look really deeply to find? Because.. nothing stood out to me the way it apparently is for you and Ouro.

For me, I've seen scum trying to directly engage with the person scumreading them and try to discredit the validity of the read or try to reason their way out of it. My memory might be a bit hazy example that came to my mind reading Vent's posts was SerraPaladin's posts in the 2016 Team Trap Mafia where he said the player who was scumreading them was doing it for reasons other than the content of their posts. I know Vent's not making that same exact argument but the nature of their defense feels like it comes from that same kind of mindset.

Wrt to my Ank vote, I've seen more content from them as both alignments tbh. It's been a while since I've played with them iirc, but how they're approaching this game doesn't sit right with me and the lack of any explanations makes it harder to actually solidify the read. I'll admit it's a read subject to change but if I have to strongarm some content from them I will.

Serious question: Why me specifically?

Kaede Akamatsu

MariaR
Ouroboros

Wraith
Nero Cain
hebichan
Impossibear (EspeciallyTheLies + Jingle)

Dunnstral
davesaz

REALMEN ONLY JUNGLE
Ventriloquist

verylazy
Wilky

Alchemist21
Tchill12
Ramcius

ManWithNoName

Kaede Akamatsu

MariaR

Nero Cain
Impossibear (EspeciallyTheLies + Jingle)
Ouroboros

hebichan
Ramcius
Wilky

REALMEN ONLY JUNGLE
verylazy

Wraith
Dunnstral
davesaz
Alchemist21

ManWithNoName
Ventriloquist

Tchill12

I think this is roughly where I'm at now; I'd kind of like to hammer more of these into place since this game has gotten really hard to read over the past ten or so pages.

Yes, I've done nothing substantial to change it

because I don't have strong enough reads

, which I've been

trying

to change. That's been the entire point of my play up to this point and I'm getting really annoyed that I'm having to sift through 2-3 pages of just the same Vent stuff every time I want to catch up and try to reach my own conclusions. Most of it is useless to me and despite the fact that I independently think Ventriloquist is scum, his flip either way is not going to shift anything or give me a better idea of what we're working with.

I've already hit the point where I almost just want to vote Ventriloquist now just so we can get to a day phase where this push isn't a distraction anymore.

[Ankamius]

I don't think you actually understand what I'm trying to get at here.

[Ankamius]

>have caught scum
>let's not lynch scum
>???

Ok

Yeah I'm prod dodging the rest of the day

Have fun

[Ankamius]

I mean, despite the fact i've been scumreading ram most of the day I also agree with what he has said on the situation. That being that ank is trying to dispel a wagon on vent whilst also trying to cover tracks when his buddy flips scum.

That really worked out pretty well, didn't it.

UNVOTE: ManWithNoName
VOTE: Ventriloquist

[Ankamius]

See you all day two, looking forward to being proven right.

[Ankamius]

I hammered in contempt for the shade comments, basically a challenge for them to put their money where their mouth is tomorrow.

If the gamestate improves tomorrow, I'll start trying again. As it is, it's a waste.

[Ankamius]

worst wagon ever. what analysis can even be done with no counterwagon? completely scum motivated. actually starting to think ouroboros might be scum the way this day went down.

really really.. just gross.

ETL

Also ETL basically said the same thing I did in different words.

This wagon is never going to help town regardless of flip.

[Ankamius]

Minus the Ouroboros scum part, I think RC is just in a death tunnel and unaware of how awful the tunnel is.

[Ankamius]

RC, any idea why Ghost felt weird to me for a while?

I've never actually played with her before so I don't know her style myself.

[Ankamius]

RC, any idea why Ghost felt weird to me for a while?

I've never actually played with her before so I don't know her style myself.

curious why you don't immediately assume that's because she's scum and go off on me for that.

I didn't immediately assume scum because I'm already strongly town reading your slot and I am well aware that I scumread certain playstyles regardless of alignment.

[Ankamius]

JFC what? I've seen this type of thing ruin towns and abused it myself as scum before. Multiple times.

What's the problem there?

[Ankamius]

Wrong.

My first game on the site was a scum game where I got lynched day one and that had a huge part in the scum win.

I won another by budding a scum member and using the town mindset shift from that to get free mislynches before gutting the strong voices for an easy coast.

There are situations where scumflips are antitown.

[Ankamius]

Bussng*

[Ankamius]

Thank you for agreeing with me, except town play was bad for a lot of the day and not just later.

[Ankamius]

I'm legitimately confused why you are arguing with me when the initial post you quoted basically says the same thing.

[Ankamius]

Mistake what?

[Ankamius]

Well, ok.

VOTE: Dunnstral

[Ankamius]

Ugh I need to go over my notes again, I'm not actually sure where my thoughts are now that one of my biggest scum reads are dead.

[Ankamius]

Oh before I forget

Thanks for falling for the bait, Ramcius. You can hang day three.

[Ankamius]

Sorry, I'm never getting lynched this game.

Maybe you'll have to shoot me after I find out who the rest of your team is, though. I already have a decent idea who the fourth is.

[Ankamius]

Nah, I'll reveal it when I care enough to. Not before then.

[Ankamius]

Congratulations on identifying my town game, I guess.

[Ankamius]

Oh before I forget

Thanks for falling for the bait, Ramcius. You can hang day three.

why not day 2?

Because Dunnstral is hanging day two.

[Ankamius]

Hey REAL, what do you think of this post?

guys, if you want PL lurker, lynch Wraith/Tchill, Dunn/very is just daed weight and not much info to gain from them

Are we

really

still going to fucking call me scum after that Vent flip? Fucking really?

And frankly while I'm certain Ouro is town now it's rather bizarre behavior that they pushed so hard for a Vent lynch and then once they finally got it

immediately

turned against the people who had pushed for it with them the most.

VOTE: Ank

This or TChill. But Ank's insistence that town should not lynch Vent because "D1 scumlynches are bad" is insanely suspicious.

[Ankamius]

Really?

Ramcius' vote on me looks stiff and preplanned, but that one from Wraith looks like he actually believes I'm scum for that.

[Ankamius]

Really?

Ramcius' vote on me looks stiff and preplanned, but that one from Wraith looks like he actually believes I'm scum for that.

isn't that a good thing? that he actually believes you're scum. that makes wraith town from your testimony

Yes, I think Wraith is town for that.

[Ankamius]

You know what's interesting Ank?
After Vent flipped scum one of the things that crossed my mind was to enter this game voting you.

I've been thinking about it tho, and I dont think scum quickhammers their partner in that situation, it's more likely for vent to just self-hammer, gives less information overall.

I'm not afraid to bus.

[Ankamius]

Question for you RC:

Do you think Ventriloquist's response to you was still coached?

[Ankamius]

Hebi, why does this matter.

[Ankamius]

The train of thought from Impossibear on Wilky and Ram is a lot like my own. Can you talk to me more about the Maria/Nero interaction? Because we're seeing opposite things there.

I'm giving Ank a few hours to deliver on that promise for content and if they don't I'm moving my vote back there.

Maybe I'm getting tunnel vision, but considering Ank did come back with a flood of posts about an hour and a half after this one from Alchemist gives me more bad vibes about Ank.

Agree with the Alchemist TR as well

You are tunnel visioning. Look at my posts around that time.

[Ankamius]

I might have to really comb my notes again and see if my perspective on any have changed because I'm kind of not feeling it with this game right now.

[Ankamius]

And this is the mod that put 2 scum neighbors, so yeah.

But also one who's apparently done multiple Town Millers in multiple games and never deviated from that.

The two scum neighbor thing was done to make a point.

It's not remotely weird for GIF to make one of the millers scum in this game.

[Ankamius]

Actually, weren't you in that game? I kind of remember hard-pushing you in that one.

[Ankamius]

Look in the dead thread, that's where he posted it.

[Ankamius]

That is weak as hell, plus I disagree about the CC. But truly, I don't care anymore. Do what you want without me.

Fallout 2 came out in 1998. I've been a fan ever since. Obsessed. I've got over 500 hours into FO4 alone. My fiance and I go as vault dwellers for Halloween frequently. We own all the games for xbox 360/One and PC, plus FO Shelter on iPad, mobile and steam. When I saw GIF made a large theme for the latest game, I was beyond excited. I had no idea there'd be a player who would make the experience so distasteful.

This is not "Let RC walk all over everyone", but that's what's happening. It doesn't even matter if he's right or not. The fact that he has no notion of how to speak to people or help others understand his point of view without ramrodding his own opinion over everyone else's makes this completely un-enjoyable.

For someone like me who is a huge fan of the series and a huge fan of GIF's games in general, this is a massive disappointment, and honestly makes me question my decision to come back in the first place. I've already let Jingle know I'm not interested in continuing, so please speak to him if you absolutely must address this slot.

ETL

:/

Well... I'm still willing to work with you, ETL, I'm just a bit lost since I'm disconnected from the gamestate.

[Ankamius]

It feels like the scum that were pushing me in twilight yesterday were instructed to back off during the night just by the way it shifted at the start of the day.

Only issue with it is... why? I don't understand why anyone here would do that.

[Ankamius]

Because I want to save you for a LyLo mislynch Ankamius

I want to recreate the great majesty of NY184 by bussing my entire scumteam then lynching you in 3 way when you're the cop inno in a setup with confirmed no godfather

You won because you brought two heavily apathied players into LyLo. You very likely wouldn't have won that game if I hadn't apathied out so heavily.

[Ankamius]

Holy fuck what have I missed

[Ankamius]

RC you need to back off and talk through Ghost

dead serious

[Ankamius]

RC

I was already on the way to checking out of the game but I'm pretty damn close to checking out completely and just purposely not joining any push you ever make for the rest of the game because you're causing a lot more damage than not by acting this way.

I guarantee you that you're far more likely to be listened to if you stop posting in the game and have Ghost relay your thoughts to the rest of us. I get the having to be loud to get what you want thing but if the game state is as precarious as you are saying it is, then you're driving the final nail in the coffin by alienating everyone like this.

[Ankamius]

Oh I completely forgot about this until reading through matt's catchup

Alchemist I still want answers to those questions

[Ankamius]

@alc:

See this is the kind of post I've been wanting. It also looks like you only refused my demands for content because you're scumreading me since you're willing to give them to Impossibear in your Town reads. Anyway, more like these please.

VOTE: Ventriloquist

I've been very cold towards your demands because of not only my initial read on you, but parts of your engagement on me reads manipulative.

This post in particular is very difficult to quantify in any sense, regardless of context from your other posts or not. It factors into my other question from you, but why did you completely drop this after spending so much of your time and effort trying to brute force info out of me?

Ok, maybe. I could see this line of reasoning. I personally didn't get that when I read his ISO. I'll re-review I guess. I'm trying to figure out why people are so gung ho about this wagon. Like, is it something you'd need to look really deeply to find? Because.. nothing stood out to me the way it apparently is for you and Ouro.

For me, I've seen scum trying to directly engage with the person scumreading them and try to discredit the validity of the read or try to reason their way out of it. My memory might be a bit hazy example that came to my mind reading Vent's posts was SerraPaladin's posts in the 2016 Team Trap Mafia where he said the player who was scumreading them was doing it for reasons other than the content of their posts. I know Vent's not making that same exact argument but the nature of their defense feels like it comes from that same kind of mindset.

Wrt to my Ank vote, I've seen more content from them as both alignments tbh. It's been a while since I've played with them iirc, but how they're approaching this game doesn't sit right with me and the lack of any explanations makes it harder to actually solidify the read. I'll admit it's a read subject to change but if I have to strongarm some content from them I will.

Serious question: Why me specifically?

[Ankamius]

yeah projectmatt is town.
scum would be too happy letting all this infighting continue.

Could that be a reason why neither of the hydras were NK'd? Ignoring PRs for a second, I can somewhat see this being a strategy, especially if neither hydra was on them. Mind you, the latter part of this half assed WIFOM theory is the key.

Ghost

Either you, me, ETL or tchill were the scum NK. OR ETL scum shot MWNN

Hmm...

I'm turning up a blank on possible scum motive for Bear to shot such a scrutinized player (not fact checked). The last time I played scum, our team coordinated the night kill to purposefully avoid 3 players who were primed to go at each other's throats, in order to help town push a mislynch.

Ghost

That's because it's a really bizarre gambit to do when you've just lost one scum on day one, the type that has a high risk of backfiring unless they're really damn sure that RC is not going to be pushing another scum today.

Even then, it's probably still too risky.

[Ankamius]

[Ankamius]

I dropped it because when you responded to Impossibear and not me, in line with your Town and scumreads on our respective slots, it sent a strong sign to me that you're Town and didn't need more content from you because I had the read.

As to why you specifically, it's because I thought I could pressure the content from you. Others' lack of content might have been due to laziness or inactivity, but yours was the only one that struck me as deliberately holding back, plus a part of me figured you would be a good player to work with if Town.

mmmmmm

Ok, I can accept this answer.

[Ankamius]

Well

To me, that just indicates scum probably has 1-2 high priority roles that they NEED to have or they just autolose the setup (and/or have mostly passive roles). I don't understand why that specifically means godfather.

[Ankamius]

um

Why did they allow Ventriloquist to die wiith it then?

[Ankamius]

Like

You even mentioned at some point (I think? I remember it anyways) that you think scum has someone that knows what they're doing very well.

Why would they just let that die d1 without pulling it onto somebody else?

um

Why did they allow Ventriloquist to die wiith it then?

Unless Vent wasnt the one who initially had it.
OR he was already voted out by you when he died and didnt have a chance.

There was plenty of time to shift things around. I'd expect that any half decent scumteam would be moving roles around based on the gamestate to avoid this kind of situation entirely.

[Ankamius]

Btw I'm also assuming that scum either has innate daytalk or an encryptor because that role kind of necessitates it.

[Ankamius]

um

Why did they allow Ventriloquist to die wiith it then?

because the roles have already been dealt out..

Do you think scum has a full list of high priority roles or what?

[Ankamius]

Jingle can you requote it for me?

[Ankamius]

alright I'm heading out for the night

gl with the game while I'm gone

[Ankamius]

Is it just me... Or are the people we're all arguing about convientlly NOT here e.g. Wilky and TChill mainly. But where's everyone else? It feels like 10+ pages since I haven't seen some of the other players.

Ghost

well

10 pages was about... three hours?

legit leaving for the night now good night everyone

[Ankamius]

btw

I have that same problem in that I usually have good reads when I can get them, but those same games are the ones where I have no ability to push them through

I get past it by pushing scum to build up a case on themselves until other town notice and push them for me. Then I get nightkilled for random reasons

But I also need a lot more time to catch scum unless I can get an instant bead on the game, in which case my gut generally catches half the team at least anyways.

so

[Ankamius]

Ouroboros has just under 27% of the game's posts in an 18 player game.

Just throwing that out there

[Ankamius]

I somehow am at #5 of the game's posts and apparently based on screenshots of this game's activity overview, this has been a thing for a while

Yet I can't remember more than like a couple things I've done

Am I dreaming this game?

[Ankamius]

MariaR isn't that far below and I kind of remember being pretty certain she's town but I can't remember anything she's done either.

idk maybe I'm going senile

I'm not too young to be going senile am I?

[Ankamius]

RC

That's part of the reason I'm disengaged as hell today

[Ankamius]

The other big reason is because I was expecting to have a scumkill to analyze from because the way you've been driving the game day one made it impossible for me to read the gamestate and that's literally the first clue I ever would've gotten

And the only shot we have is from a vig.

[Ankamius]

Well I guess a tertiary reason was because I was trying to drive a wagon on myself for most of the game but I guess I obvtowned instead?

[Ankamius]

Oh I guess I should talk about this because it's kind of relevant:

I'm still scumreading Ramcius pretty significantly from their push on me today but I'm not planning on hammering him as long as the quest is ongoing. Yesterday's hammer was situation-specific.

I'll be on the wagon beforehand if that's not trustworthy enough, idc

[Ankamius]

idk RC

I'm not exactly the type to just sheep unless I'm literally doing the barest minimum to stay in the game

Give me a few posts to look at and I'll see what read I can get from it.

(not setup spec posts because those aren't readable to me)

[Ankamius]

anyway

I'm in a mood

going to bed for real now

good night

[Ankamius]

I was going to say that projectmatt redeemed the slot a bit, but then I realized that projectmatt replaced Nero Cain and is therefore town anyways.

Kokichi isn't giving me the same vibes as he did in Necromancer so he's probably town.

[Ankamius]

MariaR isn't that far below and I kind of remember being pretty certain she's town but I can't remember anything she's done either.

idk maybe I'm going senile

I'm not too young to be going senile am I?

Btw even after a sleep and not being in a mood anymore, this is still completely true.

Even the senility part.

[Ankamius]

If wilky is alive to day 5 for whatever reason you should autolynch him

I'm scumreading Kokichi off of meta so ? at that

tbf I've only ever played with him once

But I also caught him immediately so

[Ankamius]

Like, just a quick look at his ISO and I'd normally be scumreading it.

But I was told that's playstyle and to stop scumreading playstyles so.

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

[Ankamius]

If he was obvscum, then why did nobody but me notice it for half of the game?

[Ankamius]

I'm here to help with swaps too

for a bit

[Ankamius]

Am I needed to vote?

[Ankamius]

VOTE: Kokichi Oma

[Ankamius]

Torture yourself by by reading it anyways.

[Ankamius]

Realmen who's scum

[Ankamius]

I was going to say that projectmatt redeemed the slot a bit, but then I realized that projectmatt replaced Nero Cain and is therefore town anyways.

Kokichi isn't giving me the same vibes as he did in Necromancer so he's probably town.

Like, just a quick look at his ISO and I'd normally be scumreading it.

But I was told that's playstyle and to stop scumreading playstyles so.

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Convince me?

I'm only voting him right now because of his threat, not because of any scumread.

[Ankamius]

I should probably look into a reads list. I think my head is clearing enough to be able to handle that.

[Ankamius]

@alc:

See this is the kind of post I've been wanting. It also looks like you only refused my demands for content because you're scumreading me since you're willing to give them to Impossibear in your Town reads. Anyway, more like these please.

VOTE: Ventriloquist

I've been very cold towards your demands because of not only my initial read on you, but parts of your engagement on me reads manipulative.

This post in particular is very difficult to quantify in any sense, regardless of context from your other posts or not. It factors into my other question from you, but why did you completely drop this after spending so much of your time and effort trying to brute force info out of me?

Ok, maybe. I could see this line of reasoning. I personally didn't get that when I read his ISO. I'll re-review I guess. I'm trying to figure out why people are so gung ho about this wagon. Like, is it something you'd need to look really deeply to find? Because.. nothing stood out to me the way it apparently is for you and Ouro.

For me, I've seen scum trying to directly engage with the person scumreading them and try to discredit the validity of the read or try to reason their way out of it. My memory might be a bit hazy example that came to my mind reading Vent's posts was SerraPaladin's posts in the 2016 Team Trap Mafia where he said the player who was scumreading them was doing it for reasons other than the content of their posts. I know Vent's not making that same exact argument but the nature of their defense feels like it comes from that same kind of mindset.

Wrt to my Ank vote, I've seen more content from them as both alignments tbh. It's been a while since I've played with them iirc, but how they're approaching this game doesn't sit right with me and the lack of any explanations makes it harder to actually solidify the read. I'll admit it's a read subject to change but if I have to strongarm some content from them I will.

Serious question: Why me specifically?

I dropped it because when you responded to Impossibear and not me, in line with your Town and scumreads on our respective slots, it sent a strong sign to me that you're Town and didn't need more content from you because I had the read.

As to why you specifically, it's because I thought I could pressure the content from you. Others' lack of content might have been due to laziness or inactivity, but yours was the only one that struck me as deliberately holding back, plus a part of me figured you would be a good player to work with if Town.

Ok, what do you think of this?

My issues are mostly pedantic, I'm not sure if there's anything more to them or not yet.

[Ankamius]

BTW just for clarification, 'deliberately holding back' is a reasonable assessment since... well, I was.

[Ankamius]

Well... if it helps, that's a quoted answer for two questions I had, both of which had a quote I was referring to. The impossibear one doesn't matter I don't think.

[Ankamius]

I'm assuming that's an admission that you knew me when I had my pronoun set as male?

[Ankamius]

Impossibear vigshot them, they claimed it.

[Ankamius]

Read through a bunch of the game, at least up until the Vent tunnel starts.

[Ankamius]

If one post is scummy, it's scummy. I mean, I base my reads on what is here. If someone is not posting much, I base it on what they have posted.

I did not like the posts from Vent earlier today, so if my vote wasn't there they would be now.

The way I read it, he's saying the Ouroboros, Realmen and I are a scum team because we voted together. I'm the only one he even bothered to do a half-assed case on.

If it takes me getting lynched for people to actually lynch Ventriloquist and verylazy, so be it. I don't have an ego too big to take a mislynch day 1.

I wanna lynch very lazy. Page one seemed all town except that slot.

VOTE: Unvote

lmfao

Oh wow I didn't put two and two together

Yeah, I can support an OTM lynch.

[Ankamius]

Ank is a because I know her read.

This is true btw, OTM and I know each other.

Still more likely scum than not, but I'll need more time to sort for sure now I think.

[Ankamius]

Like

I'm really confused about the lack of a mafia kill too, but I don't see how this train of thought is going to help solve it or even help us.

[Ankamius]

OTM, maybe you just claim? Cause it's really painful to look how hard you try soft your role, yet people don't get it...

No.

I don’t want to claim unless necessary.

Besides people don’t believe me so that is their problem not mine. I have a role and I am not being lynched for it. Ever. If people wish to think I am fake so be it. The valuable information we get from scum pushing me is worth it.

Why you think it's scum, who push you and not dumb town?

Because it happened immediately after I crumbed flavor and is a direct counter to a majority of people’s reads on the slot. Furthermore there is no ingenuity behind the pushes. It’s all a damn tape recorder. Some of them may be genuine but without the original thought there is almost certainly a scum influence.

What? hebichan was a pretty popular scumread before you replaced in.

[Ankamius]

Ghost, I think you're overestimating how seriously I'm taking this game right now.

[Ankamius]

Well

I'm voting for non-read reasons, so...

[Ankamius]

No, I want to drag out the day on this nonsense until we only have two days left so we can try to scramble for a lynch on someone who nobody really wants to lynch anyways and then spend day three being mad because the entire day was a waste of time since someone hammered instead of allowing ETLgle to.

[Ankamius]

Yay! I'm being noticed!

[Ankamius]

I was looking forward to Ghost going into my dissonance but that seems less likely now.

[Ankamius]

I don't see this fixation on analyzing an apparently failed NK.
What is the point?

Yay someone gets it

[Ankamius]

I don't see this fixation on analyzing an apparently failed NK.
What is the point?

There is a reason. I assure you. I can’t explain why right now. However it is extremely antitown to explain why.

@Kaede assume ETL was shot who did it?

Wait

So the lack of a nightkill is relevant to the game and we're being forced to go into a huge discussion about it... but it's anti-town to go into why we're discussing it.

So... why are we discussing it?

[Ankamius]

hebi you got replaced

[Ankamius]

OnTheMark replaces hebichan.

[Ankamius]

VOTE: Tchill

I don't care about composition or w/e anymore, just get this finished and over with so we can play.

[Ankamius]

So I see some concerns. This is me telling you that I have made an action. So, please continue.

May we please have a VoteCount? I suck at arithmetic.

[Ankamius]

A hammer on Tchill is a scumclaim. Do not vote Tchill.

[Ankamius]

VOTE: Kokichi Oma

[Ankamius]

Ooh pick me pick me

Do I make you hate mafia?

[Ankamius]

UNVOTE: Kokichi Oma
VOTE: Dunnstral

[Ankamius]

ehhhh

I'll rethink tomorrow.

[Ankamius]

Where's Ghost? I'm still waiting on the dissonance thing

[Ankamius]

RC I think you need a breather

[Ankamius]

If you are town and do not vote the person most likely to be scum fypov and actively work to derail it you are scum.

uhhhhhh

I independently think voting the person who is your biggest scumread is not always the best vote, but I don't understand the derailing point at all in this context.

[Ankamius]

I think this black and white way of looking at things is the reason I struggle to read you.

I understand there's a good reason you have that mindset, but not everyone has the same reads you do and your optimal vote is the one that's on the strongest scumread that you can push through. This is not necessarily your strongest scumread.

and tbh I don't want to bother with working through the setup because I really don't think it will improve chances of town winning, but I do think that if scum has a competent setup-styled player, it can be used to strangle town to death.

so

[Ankamius]

I'm going to scumread via play like I usually do

[Ankamius]

I'm going to

scumhunt

via play like I usually do

why am I awake again

[Ankamius]

Scum are most likely in the sheep by the way. Other than one possible WK the ones displaying some backbone are more likely town.

Why? I don't think there's necessarily a correlation.

[Ankamius]

Well... in that context, davesaz has a point. He's an easy bus right now.

[Ankamius]

Well

Now that the quest is done, I might start taking the game seriously again.

That also depends on how much I get grilled for not voteparking davesaz or general anti-town nonsense, so.

[Ankamius]

Kaede Akamatsu

MariaR ----- Probably way lower now, I honestly don't remember where the strength came from now that I haven't seen anything of her in forever (even as far back as the last 1/3 or so of day one)

Nero Cain

projectmatt ----- Matt hasn't changed this readstrength at all, very likely town
Impossibear (EspeciallyTheLies + Jingle) ----- Still town
Ouroboros ----- Still town

hebichan

OnTheMark ----- Down a bit, some of their posting has been scummy
Ramcius ----- Scummier for early-day posting
Wilky ----- ...not sure

REALMEN ONLY JUNGLE ----- Feeling a little better about this slot? Not super confident about it

verylazy

Kokichi Oma ----- Moderate town or so

Wraith ----- idr, his early posting was very good but he's went downhill since then
Dunnstral ----- scum
davesaz ----- idk, roughly same I guess
Alchemist21 ----- light town

ManWithNoName

Ventriloquist

Tchill12 ----- who the fuck

I think this is roughly where I'm at now; I'd kind of like to hammer more of these into place since this game has gotten really hard to read over the past ten or so pages.

[Ankamius]

Ank I feel you arent being as aggressive as you were as town last game, so I'm just gonna change you to slight town lean for now

I'm not aggressive this game because I'm not playing to obvtown.

[Ankamius]

Kaede Akamatsu

MariaR ----- Probably way lower now, I honestly don't remember where the strength came from now that I haven't seen anything of her in forever (even as far back as the last 1/3 or so of day one)

Nero Cain

projectmatt ----- Matt hasn't changed this readstrength at all, very likely town
Impossibear (EspeciallyTheLies + Jingle) ----- Still town
Ouroboros ----- Still town

hebichan

OnTheMark ----- Down a bit, some of their posting has been scummy
Ramcius ----- Scummier for early-day posting
Wilky ----- ...not sure

REALMEN ONLY JUNGLE ----- Feeling a little better about this slot? Not super confident about it

verylazy

Kokichi Oma ----- Moderate town or so

Wraith ----- idr, his early posting was very good but he's went downhill since then
Dunnstral ----- scum
davesaz ----- idk, roughly same I guess
Alchemist21 ----- light town

ManWithNoName

Ventriloquist

Tchill12 ----- who the fuck

I think this is roughly where I'm at now; I'd kind of like to hammer more of these into place since this game has gotten really hard to read over the past ten or so pages.

Kaede Akamatsu

projectmatt
Impossibear
Ouroboros

Kokichi Oma

Alchemist21
REALMEN ONLY JUNGLE
MariaR - ?

Wilky - ?

davesaz
Wraith - ?
OnTheMark - ?
Ramcius

Tchill12 - ?
Dunnstral

I think I can work with this. Question marks are PoIs that I'm not entirely sure about.

[Ankamius]

Honestly?

I kinda don't.

[Ankamius]

I literally took my lasting impression of slots and fitted them to my day 1 reads when I cared more, so

[Ankamius]

Ank you’re making me doubt my original townread.

The only way I can be scum is if hebichan did some horrible shit. The fact I am that low is concerning and makes me think you’re just wanting to shade me and don’t have reads chica.

btw

I just told you I'm discounting setup stuff in reads and going by play

[Ankamius]

Honestly?

I kinda don't.

You’re giving me sads. Ank goes in the needs to be sorted pile.

Well

1. The game went to hell right after I got invested into the game
2. I tried to bait a wagon on myself going into day 2 to get stronger reads since the Vent-tunnel kind of fucked me over with that
3. I wanted to cross-reference that with the nightkill to see if I had an accurate (or at least semi-accurate) read on how scum are playing the game
4. The scum nightkill never happened, one of my strongest townreads was vigged, and the wagon on me never happened.
5. The day was spent dealing with the quest, anti-town nonsense, and claim things which I literally can't get reads on

So yeah, all my reads are stale. None of my current ones are final. I'm really hoping the game can settle down a bit so I can get reinvested and start caring again.

[Ankamius]

Ugh

Undertale took years off my life, I don't want to think about that travesty ever again.

[Ankamius]

Do I need to get undertale quotes

[Ankamius]

Also Mark I'm confused why you mentioned scumchat in this game being among the longest on mafiascum?

[Ankamius]

Ugh

Undertale took years off my life, I don't want to think about that travesty ever again.

And I was right and caught Maxous.

You also know how determined I can be yes.

So you know how determined I can be.

You know how this plays out yes?

So let’s all speed along and vote Dave.

You remember how adamant I was for the entire game how clears in that game weren't actually clear, right?

I was adamantly against trying to game the setup to a win, which turned out to be true.

The game just drove me so insane that I ended up falling into the trap of using it myself.

I still have nightmares about Narna in that game.

[Ankamius]

Yeah but, do you understand how overwhelming you can be at times Mark?

It's one thing if the loudest voices has the entire game solved and never gets nightkilled.

But the problem is that loud voices tend to stifle everyone else and that's a huge detriment if that voice suddenly vanishes and everyone else has a vacuum of 2-3 empty day phases to try to catch up with.

[Ankamius]

???

What's wrong with that? It's consistent with the flips we already have.

[Ankamius]

Hell, MANWITHNONAME had an abilities section and he's a

vanilla townie

.

[Ankamius]

Yeah but, do you understand how overwhelming you can be at times Mark?

It's one thing if the loudest voices has the entire game solved and never gets nightkilled.

But the problem is that loud voices tend to stifle everyone else and that's a huge detriment if that voice suddenly vanishes and everyone else has a vacuum of 2-3 empty day phases to try to catch up with.

It’s overwhelming to people who don’t want to vote scum yes.

And if that voice disappears then town moves on.

If we continue to lynch scum then does it really matter if I am overbearing and force scum to work with me?

Scum don’t do what you want because you ask nicely. You drag them.

And as I said before if Dave is town I have zero qualms about RC and we can discuss what he wants tomorrow.

I think a few of Vent's posts after this whole tunnel started were icky, but that's... pretty much it.

I'm against the tunnel because I think it's going to be a net negative for the rest of the game. Scumflips by themselves are useless and could even benefit scum in the worst scenarios.

I think day 1 scumlynches are a net negative for town unless they're way ahead of where they're supposed to be relative to the amount of information they have.

This is not that type of situation at all because this Vent-push has drowned out 80% of the game. Even if Vent does flip scum, where does that get us, exactly? Limited information based on associations towards that slot and very little else directly, and less indirect information because this push was brute forced through.

[Ankamius]

I think we've done it

I think we've made a second undertale

Can I opt out of that

[Ankamius]

And if we get scum lynches every day it 100% doesn’t matter if it’s brute force or not.

You’re reeking of scum who can’t breathe here

The problem

Is that those lynches aren't natural

Brute forcing lynches creates a vacuum

That vacuum makes flips give less information
That vacuum makes everyone's reactions unnatural and harder to read
That vacuum

makes the game difficult for everybody else.

[Ankamius]

There's a fucking reason I was trying to bait a wagon on myself going into day 2

[Ankamius]

oh ffs

[Ankamius]

I'm going to fuck off before I go full bitch mode and then replace out

see you guys tomorrow

[Ankamius]

btw matt don't bother

Mark and I had this back and forth for literally like 2 months in undertale

The only reason it ever stopped was because they got lynched

[Ankamius]

I don't sheep pseudo-guilties unless I independently have a scumread on that slot.

My scumread on davesaz is not strong enough to qualify.

[Ankamius]

yeah

and the other game we played together

I correctly called out that the mechanical lock on the game was bullshit and scum-led

correctly lynched one scum that was heading it

and had a correct scumread on the PR that was integral to it

How did I catch those two slots?

I READ THEIR PLAY INSTEAD OF THEIR ROLES AND MECHANICS

[Ankamius]

It's too late to try to sleep now so I guess I'm stuck here.

[Ankamius]

And yet

When I tried to consolidate my reads and get my head back into the game

I'm being told that I'm literally anti-town for not blindly sheeping instead

ok

[Ankamius]

like

OnTheMark is one of my favorite people from the site in general, but this shit is exactly why I don't follow mechanics unless it results in an ironclad 100% without any shadow of a doubt guilty.

I don't have a scumread on davesaz strong enough to warrant my vote on him regardless of the fact that he got blocked or not. I would much rather use my time getting... well, any reads I can be confident in.

Otherwise once things calm down, I'll be so apathied out that I won't give a shit no matter how easy the game would be for me to read otherwise.

pedit: ok

Do you want me to quote my reads list again?

[Ankamius]

Kaede Akamatsu

MariaR ----- Probably way lower now, I honestly don't remember where the strength came from now that I haven't seen anything of her in forever (even as far back as the last 1/3 or so of day one)

Nero Cain

projectmatt ----- Matt hasn't changed this readstrength at all, very likely town
Impossibear (EspeciallyTheLies + Jingle) ----- Still town
Ouroboros ----- Still town

hebichan

OnTheMark ----- Down a bit, some of their posting has been scummy
Ramcius ----- Scummier for early-day posting
Wilky ----- ...not sure

REALMEN ONLY JUNGLE ----- Feeling a little better about this slot? Not super confident about it

verylazy

Kokichi Oma ----- Moderate town or so

Wraith ----- idr, his early posting was very good but he's went downhill since then
Dunnstral ----- scum
davesaz ----- idk, roughly same I guess
Alchemist21 ----- light town

ManWithNoName

Ventriloquist

Tchill12 ----- who the fuck

I think this is roughly where I'm at now; I'd kind of like to hammer more of these into place since this game has gotten really hard to read over the past ten or so pages.

Kaede Akamatsu

projectmatt
Impossibear
Ouroboros

Kokichi Oma

Alchemist21
REALMEN ONLY JUNGLE
MariaR - ?

Wilky - ?

davesaz
Wraith - ?
OnTheMark - ?
Ramcius

Tchill12 - ?
Dunnstral

I think I can work with this. Question marks are PoIs that I'm not entirely sure about.

[Ankamius]

Why is MariaR so up there compared to Dunnstral?

What do you mean by this?

I remember thinking MariaR was town for very early stuff mostly, but I don't remember why I had her at

that

strong of a read.

It's mostly lingering from that impression that she isn't down to null yet, tbh.

[Ankamius]

Organizing people in a list isn't scumhunting or pushing reads, all you've done is complain about the current game state

Happy Scumday Ank!

While I appreciate the long-overdue attempt at content, there wasn't actually much "content" there, tbh. I'm gonna need more explanation on those reads, not just how strong they are.

I'm actually not willing to go into every single read I have here right now, but I'm open to discussing specific ones if you have a preference.

[Ankamius]

What specifically?

I don't know if I've ever played with Dunnstral before, so I can't really comment on how other people can read him or not.

[Ankamius]

I don't remember a single thing she's done (other than telling me that you're town) since her fight with Nero Cain.

[Ankamius]

Her early posting was really town

And then the Nero Cain fight happened, which was lightly town on her.

And then nothing she ever posted again stood out in any way. It makes me wonder if my original townread was too hasty and/or if she was losing her ability to put on an effective town guise over time.

[Ankamius]

Kokichi was obvscum in necromancer; unless that was unusually bad play from him, he's probably town here for not displaying a lot of the same mannerisms in this game.

[Ankamius]

Although to be fair, I also had an unusually good read on the gamestate very early on after replacing in, so that by itself might not be very strong.

[Ankamius]

ehhhhh yeah I guess

I'm hopefully not going to be around much tomorrow though, I literally gave up having any sleep for this shitfest and I'll probably be too cranky because of it tomorrow.

[Ankamius]

How many more pages of this 1v1 is there going to be?

[Ankamius]

Where's Ghost? I'm still waiting on the dissonance thing

Sup.

Can I get an answer as to why you were scum reading OTM but not voting for him (page 87 for reference)?

Ghost

Was I voting Kokichi? If so, then I wasn't taking the game seriously. If Dunnstral, the read there is stronger.

[Ankamius]

Mark

You understand that your case on Dave isn't very good, right?

[Ankamius]

Idk RC

I can speak for myself in saying that I don't like effectively being forced to either sheep or get entirely drowned out. I expect this mindset isn't unique to me either.

All I can suggest is specifically reaching out to townreads and trying to convince them or doing my trick of engaging my scumreads and making them build a case on themselves until town finally catch on on their own.

[Ankamius]

Mark

You understand that your case on Dave isn't very good, right?

Nope. Sure don’t.

It’s actually pretty damn good.

It's bad.