Labyrinth Mafia (Endgame)

[Shoshin]

Btw I think Shoshin could be gambiting specifically because it's entirely possible she's a full doctor, we don't actually have any proof that she is a bodyguard.

Anything is possible. It's also irrelevant to making good decisions.

what does this even mean

It means anything is possible but the basis of decisions should be probabilities, not possibilities.

[Shoshin]

I'm going to make a final case on Random and then I'm done. You guys do whatever you want after that, I'm too frustrated with what people are saying at this point to keep playing this.

The case on Creature:

On D1, he defends Creature while refusing to townread Creature (see e.g. D2 where he says he never townread Creature). When pressure builds on both Creature and Renais, he votes Renais over Creature. When Nancy expresses paranoia about TPF at end of D1, as the lynch appears to be heading towards Creature, Random switches his vote to TPF, preventing a lynch on Creature and all but assuring a no lynch. In short, Random effectively stopped any possibility of lynching Creature on D1. This is about as strong of an associative connection to Creature as you could have on D1.

On D2, when the worst questioned Random's behavior re: Creature, Random says he didn't vote Creature because Creature was "playing to his scum meta." This is scummy because that's the sort of observation that leads townies to scumread a player, not to defend them. Random's logic - that he didn't vote for Creature because scum Creature wouldn't play to his scum meta - is convoluted beyond belief and suggests that Random's behavior re: Creature has nothing to do with a genuine read on Creature and instead is about pushing a scum agenda (i.e. defending a partner, and/or securing a no lynch).

On D2, Random votes Nico at a point where it's already pretty clear that Nico's probably town, and then there's a sequence of unnatural hostility/aggression towards Nico, based entirely on Nico's playstyle rather than anything alignment indicative. The hostility is fake.

After D2, he's been actively lurking. He's not making any effort to move things in a pro-town direction.

His role isn't town or scum by itself, but there's evidence that he lied about how he used the role, which is scummy.

The nightkills pointed to Random. Nico voted Random on D2 and thought Random was scummier than Creature. Shepard expressed a strong scumread on Random on D2 in my Masquerade PM with him, and he listed Random as the scummiest player in the game after Angel on D3 (Angel flipped town, meaning his next scumread was Random). According to Shepard in our PM, Random is playing to his scum meta.

Finally, in terms of plausible teams, Random could be scum with any of the other players who could be scum here. Lynching him has been very difficult. Chick says he's scummy but not her top choice for lynch. Wisdom says he's scummy but wants to lynch Chick and/or me over Random. Wheme says he's scummy but wants to vote someone else. Reality votes him but then votes off him quickly. the worst suggested he was scummy on D2 when he pressured Random about the no lynch, but then magically starts townreading him later in the game, suggesting a plausible connection.

In short, everyone has distanced themselves from Random at some point in the game yet nobody actually wants to see him lynched. So, yeah, plausible connection with anyone else who could be scum in this game.

[Shoshin]

I'm not relieved about Shep's death. I just had no intention of dying in his place

[Shoshin]

One thing that I don’t get is why she voted for Angel and is so angry at both CS and me for Angel lynch. If she really felt it was a bad lynch, then why did she go along with it?

She says if she was a doc, she would have saved him but for someone who claims to be this upset about a mislynch, she seems quite relieved about his death.

Also, why didn’t she use her NA on Sajj? He was adamantly opposed to Angel lynch. or Wheme? I initially thought her reaction was villagery but for her to be this upset about a lynching that she participated in makes no sense.

She is also aware of how anti-town Angel was, it’s not like we lynched Nico or even GIF. I could understand her being upset if either one of them had been mislynched because Nico - self-evident - GIF - sketchy but 0 threat to town but she’s not mad at Sajj for shooting GIF but CS and me are somehow evil people for wanting to eliminate a highly toxic player from the game. Why?

I voted for Angel at the end because the lynch was inevitable and I wanted to move on. I'm not even that upset about Angel's lynching, what actually upset me is the fact that you keep saying it was a good lynch when it obviously wasn't. Mislynching should be a cue to reevaluate, not a cue to keep doing what you're doing. That's what bothers me about how you've responded to the lynch.

I'm not relieved about Shep's death. I didn't want to die in his place. There's a big difference between the two.

Yes, I'm aware that Angel wasn't playing pro-town. I also strongly opposte policy lynching of any kind. You said you did too, except that's not what your actions or reasoning shows.

I never said you or Shep are "evil people." Again, you keep taking this personally even though I keep telling you it's not. I want you rethinking the game, specifically Random. That's all.

[Shoshin]

the worst, why are you voting me?

[Shoshin]

because shes scum maybe?

All of the contradictions are pinging me. She trashes CS for being bad at finding scum OOH then keeps referencing his reads on Random as a basis for her to tunnel him.

I would think if she really wanted random lynched, she would have absolutely saved the one player who was not only scumreading him but had the best chance of persuading others to lynch him, since she has pretty much positioned herself as a broken record about him.

*tin foil* theory: Shoshin is w/w with random?

Shep isn't a good townie. I know who Shep's main is, I've played with him before, and we've talked in PM about how we play the game and our strengths and weaknesses. He's bad as town, good as scum. And he admits this openly.

I reference him re: Random to point out that I'm not alone in suspectnig Random - two other townies also did, Nico and Shep - but I'm the one who caught Random and explained why he's scum to Shep - Shep just agreed, in part because he trusts my scumhunting skills.

Yeah, I get that you keep saying I would have saved Shep. I didn't. I chose not to. Get over it.

Would you have died in place of Angel if Angel was confirmed town? I'm guessing not, since you keep saying her play was anti-town. Just because someone is confirmed town doesn't mean it's worth dying in their place.

[Shoshin]

Wisdom, why can't it be Random?

[Shoshin]

Wisdom, why can't it be Random?

[Shoshin]

oh come on tw
Its chick and her, it cant be anyone else

My question is in reference to this. Why can't it be Random?

[Shoshin]

besides why the hell would random send a message to nico
And why would he lie about doing it
Doesnt make any sense

If random is scum here, why wouldn’t he lie?

He hasn’t confirmed it yet and I don’t like how you’re giving him an out based on you assuming the mod derped. We don’t know that and either do you.

Your defense of random is kind of pinging me because it’s too over the top.

He may still be town but I don’t like how you’re automatically assuming a mod derp. Until RC tells me otherwise, I believing there wasn’t one.

Good analysis. Well done, Nancy!

[Shoshin]

Sho, why did you claim your protective to CShep?

We spoke in the PM, we townread each other, he trusted me so he claimed his role to me, and I eventually claimed mine to him because we got into a discussion about how he wanted to use his role on Nico but needed Nico to live, and I let him know that I was a bodyguard and I'd be on Nico that night.

[Shoshin]

The fact that nobody has claimed a communicative targeting Nico means that scum is lying. And that means one of two things: either scum didn't expect Reality's result, which in turn suggests that Reality/Wheme are town, or both Reality/Wheme are scum making a gambit.

I doubt they're scum because their result sort of cleared me, so overall they're probably town.

[Shoshin]

Wisdom, why can't Random be scum?

[Shoshin]

Reality, you think I'm scum pulling some elaborate gambit?

[Shoshin]

That's fine, Wisdom. Why can't Random be scum?

[Shoshin]

That's fine, Wisdom. Why can't Random be scum?

because its you and chick
No matter how many times you repeat youre achieving nothing

That's circular.

You just said it's me and Chick because it can't be Random, and it can't be Random because it's me and Chick.

Again, why can't Random be scum?

[Shoshin]

What I am trying to say is that I'm more confident in scum in {chick, random} than in chick/shoshin

So, are you willing to lynch Random?

What're your thoughts on Wisdom?

[Shoshin]

VOTE: Wisdom

[Shoshin]

Reality, on D3 you said someone did something very towny on N2. You weren't referring to both the protective and communicative result. Which were you referring to?

[Shoshin]

Hey Sajj, why not lynch Random?

[Shoshin]

Or Wisdom?

[Shoshin]

Either way, if you're going to lynch between me and Chick, Chick is the better lynch because I can still try to prove my role tonight.

[Shoshin]

Wisdom's scum, Nancy.

His certainty re: mod derp = knowing too much.

[Shoshin]

It's Random/Wisdom.

[Shoshin]

Maybe Chick. Maybe.

[Shoshin]

Wisdom's certainty that I'm scum doesn't make any sense either from a town perspective.

[Shoshin]

if we lynch chick on red flip i shoot sho, on green i shoot random

same if we lynch sho.

UNVOTE:

This sequence feels like Random doesn't want to die when I inevitably flip town.

[Shoshin]

check literally any town game of mine then try again

What's the difference between your town and scum game?

[Shoshin]

Alright, cool.

I'm glad I figured this out.

Random/Wisdom.

Nancy, I don't really mind dying anymore as long as you lynch those two when I flip town. Please promise me this.

[Shoshin]

I agree that it's a weird way to resolve night actions.

[Shoshin]

Random's plausibly scum with Chick.

[Shoshin]

Sajj better not shoot me, I should at least have an opportunity to prove my role tonight.

[Shoshin]

Reality, why are you so sure I'm scum?

[Shoshin]

Wisdom doesn't want me to prove my role, lol...

[Shoshin]

Hey Sajj, why not lynch Random?

Or Wisdom?

I'd be fine with random, too.

I don't really see reasons to lynch wisdom.

You think he's town here?

[Shoshin]

Wisdom doesn't even want to let me try proving my role... how is this not pinging anyone?

[Shoshin]

Reality's obsession with me is ridiculous at this point. She has a result that strongly suggests I'm town, and instead of going with what's probable, she decides to make up a convoluted theory about some crazy gambit?

This is comically absurd.

[Shoshin]

Nancy, can you explain how Chick/Sajj can't be aligned with each other?

[Shoshin]

Please let me prove my role. Please. There's no harm in allowing me to prove the role.

[Shoshin]

You cannot prove shit

What's the harm in letting me prove it?

[Shoshin]

Please let me prove the role.

[Shoshin]

There's literally no harm in letting me prove the role.

[Shoshin]

This game is solved.

I'm town
Wisdom is obvtown
Random is obvtown
I strongly believe the townread on the worst is sheepable.

That leaves three slots. Either there is two scum left and it doesn't matter which order, or there is three and it still doesn't matter.

What the fuck?

Wisdom is obvtown?
Random is obvtown?

Are you serious?

[Shoshin]

Sajj, please let me prove role. Please.

[Shoshin]

You can just lynch me the next day if I don't. It's better than shooting me.

[Shoshin]

Something is off about Reality.

[Shoshin]

You cannot prove shit

What's the harm in letting me prove it?

how do you think you will prove it?

By dying in place of the nightkill.

[Shoshin]

There's literally no harm in letting me prove the role.

You shaded me for daring to sort out Sajj because I can’t read “honesty”; now you you’re suddenly scumreading her?

Scumread who? Sajj? No, I strongly townread Sajj.

[Shoshin]

Sajj isn't scum.

Chick might be, not sure.

[Shoshin]

There's literally no harm in letting me prove the role.

You shaded me for daring to sort out Sajj because I can’t read “honesty”; now you you’re suddenly scumreading her?

I didn't even shade you at any point in this game. WtF? I'm at a loss here. Like, you keep misinterpreting my posts in the weirdest ways.

[Shoshin]

So Chick's dead?

[Shoshin]

Reality's obsession is about the most hilariously absurd thing I've seen all week.

[Shoshin]

I hope Chick is scum.

[Shoshin]

I feel sorry for Nancy.

[Shoshin]

So cluelessly manipulated.

[Shoshin]

I was on Nancy.

[Shoshin]

Who do you think the last scum is, Sajj?

[Shoshin]

I'm town, Sajj.

[Shoshin]

There might be two scum left, I dunno.

[Shoshin]

I thought I was dying last night to you Sajj... so not sure what you mean by "impressive," I was trying to avoid a townie needlessly dying...

[Shoshin]

I protect Nancy because that's who I thought scum might kill.

I thought scum would leave Sajj alive to kill me.

I thought Reality would be left alive to mislynch me in the event Sajj failed.

I think Wheme, Random, Wisdom, all would be left alive because they're a potential mislynch, and I wasn't sure either of them were town.

I'm not protecting the worst because I'm not convinced he's town.

So that leaves Nancy as likely nightkill.

[Shoshin]

I tried to prove myself.

I should at least be given the chance to prove myself until we're at LYLO.

[Shoshin]

Why do you think there are two scum?

And why are we lynching you?

[Shoshin]

Why'd you shoot GIF?

[Shoshin]

Well, then, this game is going to be lost.

[Shoshin]

If you're town, Sajj, you should be looking at the people trying to lynch you, not the ones trying to figure this out.

[Shoshin]

Why not?

You think if I'm town I should lynch you?

[Shoshin]

You're telling me I should be lynching you...

[Shoshin]

I hate this line of thinking. The whole "it makes no sense for X mechanic" assumes knowledge of what roles the scum have when we just don't know.

[Shoshin]

If it's 4 scum, town would need a lot of power to counterbalance the numbers.

[Shoshin]

Yes, our roles are confirmed. That doesn't tell us anything about what mafia have...

[Shoshin]

If anything, Wisdom's role kinda makes sense as scum when combined with Chick's role.

[Shoshin]

Like, why would mafia care what anyone's flavor is, unless they had to find (or avoid shooting) specific players (e.g. Sarah?).

[Shoshin]

I think scum redirector opens possibility for scum to redirect the vig, hence why vig is limited to 1-shot. That makes sense.

[Shoshin]

Jailkeeper/enablers plus bodyguard plus macho cop is a very reasonable amount of protection for town to have. Jailkeeper can't protect without also blocking. Jailkeepr can be disabled by killing enabler. And bodyguard can't protect without dying in the process. On top of all that, nobody can protect the macho cop. And scum have a strongman.

You'd be crazy not to believe that town has this much protection in light of scum redirector, scum strongman, and a macho cop.

[Shoshin]

Just think about it for a second, Sajj. Why do scum have an identity cop?

[Shoshin]

Reviver isn't protection though I wonder if redirector could theoretically cause scum to be revived?

Also, strongman is specifically about getting through jailkeeper and bodyguard.

[Shoshin]

I'm guessing Wisdom used a fakeclaim and I'm guessing his fakeclaim is related to his actual role just like all the fakeclaims have been. And I'm guessing his real role has a connection to Sarah just like the fakeclaim. And that explains why scum are looking for Sarah.

[Shoshin]

Sajj, why didn't you just claim 1-shot vig to begin with?

[Shoshin]

Yes, Sarah is dead. Correct.

[Shoshin]

Chick was a scum identity cop.

What benefit do scum get from an identity cop? It helps them identify characters.

Why would scum need to do that? It doesn't tell them what role the characters have... so maybe scum benefit from actually knowing the characters themselves.

Wisdom claimed a role tied to Sarah. If Wisdom is scum, the value of his role to scum would be based on knowing who Sarah is.

If Wisdom is scum, he's probably fakeclaiming. But we know that the fakeclaims bear some similarity to the actual roles that scum have. So even if he's scum, he probably has a role tied to Sarah.

And if scum Wisdom has a role tied to Sarah, it explains why scum benefit from an identity cop.

[Shoshin]

Sajj, think about why you weren't nightkilled.

[Shoshin]

You also need to think about the Nico protection.

If I'm scum, why would I protect Nico?

Scum don't seem to have had any knowledge that Nico was macho.

In what world do I protect Nico while a partner uses the nightkill on Nico?

[Shoshin]

Fuck, Sajj, you're going to lose us this game.

I'm not asking you questions. I'm trying to get you to think about the game because you're not listening to the answers I provide.

[Shoshin]

Sajj, I protected Nico on the same night that scum killed Nico. That's an undeniable fact.

I want you to think about why scum would ever use protect a cop from being nightkilled. The answer is, they wouldn't. My action makes sense

ONLY

from a town perspective.

[Shoshin]

I'm not providing possibilities, I'm providing probabilities.

It's highly improbable that scum protect a cop from being nightkilled. That's a fucking fact.

[Shoshin]

I'm not talking about maybes. You konw who is talking about maybes? Everyone who thinks I COULD be scum when the evidence says I'm PROBABLY not.

[Shoshin]

Sajj, the people voting you are the scum who need to be lynched.

My appeals will be to you, Nancy, and Wheme.

[Shoshin]

Probability, Sajj. Fucking probability.

You're talking about these very remote possibilities when I'm talking about what's probable.

[Shoshin]

Sajj, I protected Nico on the same night that scum killed Nico. That's an undeniable fact.

I want you to think about why scum would ever use protect a cop from being nightkilled. The answer is, they wouldn't. My action makes sense

ONLY

from a town perspective.

not if:
you are scum protective and you knew that nico was going to check either random/reality (and there was no lynch d1) so it was worth gambiting
+
if wheme is scum with you that gives you even more reason to do that.

So, for me to be scum, I would have had to known that Reality was going to check Nico and that Nico was macho cop. As scum, how could I know either of those facts?

[Shoshin]

no, when the NK is missing you just claim that it was because of you

I claimed bodyguard before the night phase.

[Shoshin]

Random, I claimed bodyguard to Shepard. And Shepard claimed it to whoever was in a PM with me. I was locked in to a bodyguard claim.

[Shoshin]

Both Shepard (who survied N2) and someone else (whoever was in a PM with Shepard) knew I was bodyguard.

[Shoshin]

Don't know if the person was Nancy or the worst. I can't keep track of what's going on. But someone else knew I was bodyguard.

[Shoshin]

Shepard was a neighborizer. He was in a neighborhood with someone. That person knows that I claimed bodyguard on D2 before protecting Nico.

[Shoshin]

Sajj, anything is fucking possible. Anything. You could be scum vig. Nancy could be scum jailkeeper who visited you and Nico was redirected to town. Who the fuck knows? Anything is possible in mafia.

You win by lynching based on probability, not based on what's possible.

Scum use what's possible to push mislynches. Don't let them.

[Shoshin]

Shepard claimed I was bodyguard on D2 to someone. He told me. He said someone else knows I'm bodyguard. On D2.

[Shoshin]

So when I went to protect Nico, I was 100% locked in to die if scum shot her. The only way I do that as scum is if I know that Nico is macho cop. And there's no way I know that unless you think scum have an identity cop and a role cop and that scum used their role cop on Nico on N1. Unlikely.

Very unlikely. On top of that, you'd have to believe that I knew Reality was targeting Nico. I mean, the number of unfounded assumptions you have to make is staggering. It's just really really really unlikely. Look at the probability, please.

[Shoshin]

there's town consensus on what to do with you, Sajj? Really?

[Shoshin]

Scum aren't pushing your mislynch?

[Shoshin]

I mean, fuck it, maybe Sajj is scum. I don't see how a townie in your spot doesn't suspect the people pushing her lynch and calls them a "town consensus."

[Shoshin]

From my perspective, a town 1-shot vig always claims to have multiple shots to keep scum on their toes. I've seen it before. More than once.

[Shoshin]

Besides, there's no scum strategy behind saying you're going to kill me and then me being alive the next day.

[Shoshin]

If I claim bodyguard on Nico and then nobody dies, I can't claim to have stopped the nightkill.

That's why the bodyguard claim matters.

[Shoshin]

give me a solve shoshin

not me, not you then who and why

I don't know if it's not you because you keep telling me I should be voting you. That's making me reconsider. But assuming you're town, the scum are among Random, Wisdom, and the worst.

Why?

It's not Nancy (because of Nico and because her role is likely town). It's not me (for all the reasons I've mentioned). It's not Wheme (because he's been pro-town and his role connection doesn't seem to come from scum).

That leaves Random, Wisdom, and the worst.

I've already discussed why Random is scummy based on his interactions with Creature and Nico.

Wisdom is scummy because he replaced a scummy slot (Taly didn't do anything all game and eventually replaced out), and he's mindlessly pushing mislynches on you and me, and his certainty about anything (Chick, you, or me) doesn't square with what he's read of the game. I also don't believe he srongly townreads the worst based on only reading D4 (it's fine if you townread the worst for the reasons Nancy does, but not for the reasons Wisdom has given). His role also makes sense as scum, especially in light of Chick's flip.

the worst is scummy for blindly pushing mislynches on you and me, because he couldn't explain why he townread you earlier in the game, and because he's just been going with the flow the entire game. His turn on Random (initially pushing him, then defending him) doesn't make any sense, either.

[Shoshin]

I'll add that Wheme is probably town because he's actually still thinking about the game critically, unlike Random, Wisdom, or the worst.

If we still have one or two mislynches available, our best shot at winning the game is lynching Random, Wisdom, and the worst (one of whom will be a mislynch).

[Shoshin]

Random, why do you think I'm a doc when I claimed bodyguard to Shepard on D2?

[Shoshin]

Think this through.

[Shoshin]

What's the scum motivation for Sajj lying about shooting me?

[Shoshin]

Cool, the worst is making a case for himself as town. Let's see what he does.

[Shoshin]

I want wisdom

To lynch him?

[Shoshin]

Probably a good call.

[Shoshin]

Where is Nancy? Does she know the day started?

[Shoshin]

Everyone suspected Chick.

[Shoshin]

Wheme, any results from last night?

[Shoshin]

Uhm no?

Aren't you like a voyeur or something?

[Shoshin]

tw i don't fucking bus chick when game is full of scummy people
I don't kill reality whom i have in my pocket
I don't make any sense as scum
Pls dont be bad

Those defenses are mostly WIFOM.

But I'll address the situations you bring up.

Why bus Chick? Because she was getting lynched. Nobody thought she was town. She was a consensus lynch that basically everyone agreed on. Wheme wanted her dead. Reality wanted her dead. Nancy wanted her dead. Random wanted her dead. the worst wanted her dead. She was going down. The right move for scum to make in that situation is to bus Chick.

Why kill Reality? A couple reasons. As scum, you think I'm dying to Sajj so you know Reality's going to reevaluate her reads. You also know I'm probably protecting Nancy or Sajj, so those are bad kills. You also know Wheme is a plausible mislynch, so that's a bad kill. Like, Reality's that obvious kill there, especially in light of the fact that scum thought I was dying and that meant Reality would be reevaluating things.

[Shoshin]

And if reality is "the obvious kill" you wouldnt target nancy, would you?

WIFOM.

[Shoshin]

Wisdom, if I'm town, who are the scum?

[Shoshin]

Why Sajj?

[Shoshin]

Wheme, why do you think I'm scum? What changed from yesterday when you said I was town?

[Shoshin]

If Sajj is scum, why not kill me?

[Shoshin]

And if you think I'm a scum doctor partnered with a 1-shot vig, why the fuck would town have no killing roles and scum a 1-shot vig?

[Shoshin]

The idea that I'm partnered with Sajj is just wrong, blatantly wrong.

[Shoshin]

If Sajj were SK, she would have killed me last night.

[Shoshin]

We're probably going to lose this game.

[Shoshin]

I'm fairly sure there's two based on the way this is going.

I'm not even sure what to do at this point. What can we do here?

[Shoshin]

Nancy is our only hope.

[Shoshin]

Random, Wisdom, Wheme, and the worst - among that group are at least two very misguided townies.

[Shoshin]

Wheme has been pushing Chick's lynch all game so he's probably town.

[Shoshin]

Random called Chick slightly townish and he wanted me lynched over Chick. So, still probably scum.

[Shoshin]

I still don't buy that Wisdom enters the thread on D4, reads only D4, and from that decides that the worst is obvious town. What was obvious town about the worst on D4? Can anyone explain? Anyone at all?

[Shoshin]

Random, when Chick first started posting you said she was townish. That's what I was referring to.

[Shoshin]

"reads only d4"
lol'd

That's what you said... did you read more than D4?

[Shoshin]

VOTE: Wisdom

[Shoshin]

If you've read the whole game, how can you still think I'm scum?

[Shoshin]

You know that I'm a protective role because of Reality.

You know that I claimed bodyguard on D2 to Shepard before N2 when I protected Nico, which means I locked myself into that claim. If I were a scum doctor, I could not protect Nico without dying, becuase that would call my claim into question.

As a basic matter of probability, it's unlikely that scum would prevent themselves from killing a cop by protecting the cop the same night they try to nightkill the cop.

It's also unlikely that scum knew Nico was a macho cop. For that to be the case, they would have to have both an identity cop and a role cop, and they'd have to have used their role cop specifically on Nico on N1.

[Shoshin]

Sajj is likely town because scum redirected Nancy to Sajj on N1.

Think about that from scum's perspective. If Nancy had been cop investigating scum, scum appear innocent. If Nancy had been cop investigating town, town appears innocent (no difference is made). If Nancy had been vig shooting scum, town dies instead. If Nancy had been vig shooting town, no difference is made. If Nancy had been a protective role, scum guarantees protector isn't on their nightkill.

It's very unlikely that scum redirect Nancy to one of their own. Thus, Sajj is town.

[Shoshin]

then who is scum shoshin? I refuse to consider Nancy and tw and wheme are unlikely

Nancy is not scum, agreed.

That leaves TW, Wheme, Random, and you. I don't know who the scum are in that group, but that's where they are.

[Shoshin]

you make the most sense as scum with chick and in general
I dont particularly care about why you claimed bg

The fact that I'm a protective role was proven by Reality... Like, how do you explain the fact that I protected Nico on N2?

[Shoshin]

As for the hood, why are we assuming that Chick and Random didn't fake being in a hood together? Why couldn't Chick be in the same hood with Reality/Wheme? And Random just be scum who isn't even in a hood?

[Shoshin]

That's much less of a stretch than saying that I'm a scum doctor who claimed bodyguard and then protected Nico the same night that scum tried to kill Nico...

[Shoshin]

I guess it's not impossible but don't think it's likely

I'm glad that you've started to think in terms of probability.

[Shoshin]

other than the fact we dont know sajj didnt make up her "oh i just got the loud thing", i thought that was a decent point

]If Sajj made it up, who did scum redirect to? It wasn't Nico. It wasn't TBG. It wasn't Shepard. So who?

[Shoshin]

I don't think reality and wheme would lie about being in hood with chick

Reality and Wheme don't know who is in their hood.

Reality thought that I was in the hood but had been lurking to get information. Or something like that. Like, there's no reason to believe their hood is exclusive to Reality and Wheme.

[Shoshin]

If Wheme flips scum, then I'd agree that Random is probably town. Otherwise, I'm not counting Random out.

[Shoshin]

ok if nancy is town vig directing to someone who is scum is bad
if she's a protective or investigative, it's good because it could take her off of town onto scum creating a false positive or stopping a protection onto their target

Random's spewing nonsense.

Scum don't redirect a random townie to themselves. They just don't.

[Shoshin]

Sajj isn't lying about being targeted. Like, if she were lying, who did they redirect to? We know with absolute certainty it wasn't any of the dead townies. TBG died. Nico wasn't blocked. And Shepard wasn't blocked. So it was Sajj.

[Shoshin]

I don't think reality and wheme would lie about being in hood with chick

Reality and Wheme don't know who is in their hood.

Reality thought that I was in the hood but had been lurking to get information. Or something like that. Like, there's no reason to believe their hood is exclusive to Reality and Wheme.

???
I don't remember reading about it?

The entire reason that Reality thought I could be scum is because she thought I had access to their neighborhood. If she thought that, it means she thought it was plausible that scum had been lurking in their hood. And that means the scenario I've just outlined above is possible.

[Shoshin]

Who did Shepard target on N1? I can't keep that straight.

[Shoshin]

Was it the worst or Nancy? Can't remember.

[Shoshin]

Also, a scum/scum hood is possible. That way, if one flips scum, the other appears confirmed. It's not even bastard modding, though it's certainly something I could see our mod doing...

[Shoshin]

Alright, this is what I'm thinking.

I've been trying to figure out why scum killed Nico on N2 despite knowing that Nico was probably protected and despite losing their strongman.

What if scum knew that I was a bodyguard targeting Nico on N2? In that case, they have reason to kill Nico. Worst-case scenario, scum kill me. Best-case scenario, they kill Nico.

If the worst was in a PM with Shepard, the worst knew that I was bodyguarding Nico on N2.

If the worst is scum, scum would have known that targeting Nico for a killl would at the very least lead to my death and possibly lead to Nico's death.

And that would explain why scum killed Nico on N2.

[Shoshin]

I know most of you think he's town via behaviors but I've disagreed with that all game. I don't think anyone has actually pointed to any good reasons to townread the worst. His role isn't inherently town or scum. And circumstantially, the fact that he was in a PM with Shepard offers a compelling explanation for why scum killed Nico on N2.

[Shoshin]

Also, the fact that scum had a 1-shot strongman makes it unlikely that scum thought Nico was a macho cop.

[Shoshin]

Why not flip the worst first?

[Shoshin]

You still think I'm scum, Sajj? I was seen protecting Nico on N2, and I literally stopped a mislynch on you from happening. How the fuck are you still scumreading me?

[Shoshin]

Sajj, do you think the worst is town? If so, why?

[Shoshin]

Sajj, do you think the worst is town? If so, why?

playing too bad to be scum

Are you kidding me? This is why the worst is town?

[Shoshin]

Wait, I just realized something.

[Shoshin]

the worst said he was neighborized on N3?

[Shoshin]

I know with absolute certainty that Shepard neighborized someone on N1.

It wasn't Nico.

According to Shepard, it was someone I townread.

The only player I clearly townread was Nancy.

It's possible that Shepard mistook me for saying I townread the worst but there's no way he thought I townread anyone else because we discussed other players.

Nancy says she wasn't neighborized on N1.

Either Nancy is lying or the worst is lying.

One of them is scum.

[Shoshin]

the worst said he was neighborized on N3. I found the post.

So, either the worst is lying or Nancy is lying.

[Shoshin]

So, we're fucked.

Becuase nobody is ever going to lynch those two.

GG scum.

[Shoshin]

Can I copy paste what Shepard told me?

[Shoshin]

Is that allowed?

[Shoshin]

Okay. Can't copy paste. Here's a paraphrase:

Shepard claims friendly neighborizer to me because he trusts I'm town.

I claim bodyguard because I trust him at that point.

He tells me he is in a neighborhood with someone he trusts is town.

I ask who.

He says he doesn't want to tell me to be safe, that it's best to leave one person off. He says it's someone that I'm townreading.

Then we discuss night actions. We're both targeting Nico.

Then he tells me that he told his neighbor my claim.

I get upset that he told someone else my claim, especially when I don't know who the person is.

He says it's good for that person to know just in case he dies, at least someone can confirm I'm telling the truth.

[Shoshin]

So Shepard neighborized someone on N1.

It wasn't Reality because of the discussion between Shepard and Reality on D3.

It wasn't Random because Shepard and me discussed the fact that Random was scum in the neighborhood.

It wasn't Nico because he was targeting Nico on N2.

It wasn't Sajj because Shepard thought Sajj was scum.

It wasn't GiF because Shepard thought GiF was scum.

That leaves Nancy or the worst.

Nancy says she wasn't neighborized.

the worst says he was neighborized on N3, not on N1.

One of them is lying.

[Shoshin]

I wanna lynch scum.

alright I'll give you a clue
I was actually neighbourised by CShep last night

the worst saying he was neighborized on N3.

you already claimed bodyguard to CShep so changing your claim would be risky. why would I care why you used it as your fakeclaim? it's probably the one RC gave you. it's not provable until your literal death do it's a great fakeclaim.

the worst confirming that I claimed bodyguard to Shepard.

[Shoshin]

Shepard was not roleblocked on N2 because Nancy's role failed.

[Shoshin]

hmm I guess maybe CShep targeted me last night

Maybe?

the worst blatantly lied to us.

[Shoshin]

Yeah, it failed because of your kill.

[Shoshin]

Why did you say you were neighborized on N1?

[Shoshin]

I mean, N3?

[Shoshin]

the worst, how are those comments from D3 when Nico and GiF had already died at that point?

[Shoshin]

Also, in my PM he was saying Random was scum via meta, independent of any reasons I gave. So I have a hard time believing that he didn't suspect Random.

[Shoshin]

Either way, should be obvious why I didn't mind him dying if that's what he thought... Shepard's not very good as town...

[Shoshin]

Alright, I guess it makes sense that joral didn't neighborize anyone N1.

[Shoshin]

Nancy is town, then. Shouldn't have doubted.

[Shoshin]

It's odd that Shepard targeted the worst over Nancy, though I'm guessing it's because he thought Nancy might die and he needed to confirm himself to someone.

[Shoshin]

Common sense doesn't suggest doing that.

[Shoshin]

It defies common sense to believe that I'm a scum doctor who protected Nico the same night that scum tried to kill her.

[Shoshin]

It also defies common sense to believe that I'm scum trying to avert a mislynch on Sajj when I could have easily let that go through.

[Shoshin]

the worst, why is your "common sense" so wrong?

[Shoshin]

Wheme, did you not see my explanation as to why Sajj is town?

[Shoshin]

Well, Sajj is town.

[Shoshin]

Please look at my explanation as to why Sajj is town.

[Shoshin]

the worst, we've been over this already. Bodyguard isn't a doctor, so the idea that I should automatically target the nightkill isn't correct.

[Shoshin]

Like, I understand that you're upset that you don't have a confirmed town in Shepard, but also understand that Shepard probably would have died on N4 if I had saved him on N3. So it's not like he'd be around today. And as a result, Nancy or Sajj would probably die before LYLO.

In this situation, I'm making sure the right people stay alive (Nancy, Sajj) much past the point where they should be alive, all the way to LYLO, so I'm actually having a pretty strong pro-town effect on the game despite choosing not to sacrifice myself for Shepard.

Also, think about what's going through scum's mind here. They don't want to kill me because they think what I did might get me mislynched. But at the same time, they don't want me to die in the night phase, so they're going to be forced to kill players outside of Nancy and Sajj if they want to keep me alive all the way to LYLO. And that's going to make it much harder for scum to win.

As long as you don't make the mistake of ignoring all the evidence that confirms me as town, you'll realize that the actual effect of what I'm doing is super pro-town.

[Shoshin]

Hai, been away, just got back. So Reality NK is interesting. Why her over Sajj, me, Shoshin? Reality wanted Sajj dead and wh did she lie abour being 1-shot? That makes no sense.

Why would scum kill me when half the players were pushing for my mislynch?

Why did scum kill Reality? The most likely reason is that scum didn't want to kill the person I was protecting because they wanted Sajj to kill me or they wanted to leave me alive to be mislynched. Scum know that I'm probably protecting you or Sajj, so they don't kill either of you. Instead, they kill a townie who I'm probably not protecting (i.e. Reality).

Do we really believe that RC took not one but two nights to inform her of redirect?

Why would Sajj lie about that? Even if she were scum (she's probably not), she has no reason to lie about that.

Shoshin’s argument is entirely based on what Sajj is/has claimed.

It's based on more than that. I know with certainty that you were redirected because I didn't receive any sort of indication that you targeted me. And we can assume that scum redirected you to town for the reasons I explained earlier (I can go over those again if you need further clarification). We also know that scum didn't redirect you to TBG, Nico, or Shepard, and nobody countered Sajj's claim. So, Sajj was telling the truth that you were redirected to her and that means Sajj is likely town.

It’s also interesting that Chick claimed to have investigated Sajj.

That's probably true. She was an identity cop, after all.

If Sajj were town, she should be dead not Reality.

As I've already said, scum would not kill Sajj because of the chance that I was protecting Sajj. Again, think about this from scum's perspective. Scum thought that Sajj was going to kill me or they wanted to leave me alive for a mislynch, so they wanted to avoid killing the person I was protecting. The worst-case scenario for scum is killing the person I'm protecting, because if they kill me they lose a mislynch opportunity.

I’m trying to determine if Shoshin is w/w with Sajj or just clueless.

Neither of us is scum. I've explained exactly why all the evidence shows that we're town. Please review.

At this point, I'm doing my best to get you to LYLO. I hope you live up to your reputation and make the right call about this. But please please go through all these pieces of evidence I'm bringing up and think about them.

Town!Sajj would have absolutely come clean before D5, if only for fear of NK. Soshin said that Sajj or me would be the NK.

Why would scum Sajj lie about this? What's her plan when I don't die?

[Shoshin]

Wisdom, I'm not saying Reality lied about anything... Reality was the one who suggested that scum had access to their neighborhood...

[Shoshin]

Anyway, I'm not sure about Random anymore. I'm certain that scum are among Random, Wisdom, Wheme, and the worst. But I have no clue who the scum is among them.

[Shoshin]

Wisdom, I'm not saying Reality lied about anything... Reality was the one who suggested that scum had access to their neighborhood...

quote?

Why do you think Reality thought I could be scum? I'll find the quote but I thought you had read the game...

[Shoshin]

It requires neighborhood access though, otherwise there's no motivation to protect Nico as scum.

[Shoshin]

why are you locktown on Sajj I don't understand

1. Scum don't redirect a random townie to scum, they redirect a random townie to town. Scum redirected Nancy to Sajj. Thus, Sajj is town.

2. I don't think scum have a 1-shot vig along with a 1-shot strongman and redirector.

3. Sajj has been playing townish since D2, especially the way she was responding to Reality's case on me from D2 and her play afterwards. The way she was critical of the Angel lynch was townish. In general, town via behaviors.

4. I don't think scum lie about being a 1-shot vig and then choose not to kill me, because that needlessly exposes them. If Sajj were scum, she would have killed me last night.

[Shoshin]

Random wanted Shoshin dead

I said no to that in the pt

What are you talking about?

[Shoshin]

hold on scum redirected Nancy to Sajj? I thought she targeted Sajj...

I've been saying this multiple times. Why aren't you reading? Holy fuck this is annoying.

[Shoshin]

Wow.

Nancy targeted me.

Sajj received the message.

[Shoshin]

What a joke of a game. Nobody reads. Nobody pays attention. Like wtf.

[Shoshin]

Can you unvote?