Baton Pass [Game Over!]
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Oh Goon
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I think this plist is one I won't have any success with if I throw my weight aroundIn post 151, Dannflor wrote:
I feel like you say this every gameIn post 146, Oh wrote:This is already shaping up to be a game I will lose interest in pretty quickly-
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Thank you for volunteering to find one!In post 159, Oversoul wrote:If Oh doesn’t make their avatar Professor Oak saying “Oh?” in Pokémon Snap I will never townread them.-
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Oh Goon
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Also wtfIn post 153, Gay Dance Gone Wrong wrote:Here's a pro tip.
To draw Anka in we have to play this game as suboptimally as possible
She'll rush in here pulling her hair out!-
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Oh Goon
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Let's not do this pleaseIn post 190, Celestial Coordinates wrote:As an additional note, if we're not planning all the baton passes as a group together we're wasting the potential town equity of this setup.-
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Oh Goon
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Oh Goon
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Oh Goon
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Yeah and what happens when it inevitably doesn't get followedIn post 224, Celestial Coordinates wrote:
if all the other players who understand how mafia works agree with me that it's incredibly anti-town not to have a lynch chain agreed on support me will you go along or are you just refusing to play this in the optimal way for townIn post 223, Oh wrote:Ok RC leave us out then, I'm not letting you leash me.
Even if you leave me out, SOMEONE will break the chain and then it just fucks everything up, and you can't even really call them scum since town are more likely to do that than scum is
Even barring that, I've seen so many towns fall apart from focusing almost entirely on mechanics that I really can't stand behind strategies like this even if it's "optimal"
Just play mafia and build strong townblocks, then use the information from that to narrow down the scumteam
It's better for my sanity that way-
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Consensus on how to treat the pass is better imo but this is fineIn post 250, Gay Dance Gone Wrong wrote:
Can we at least agree to this then?In post 247, Gay Dance Gone Wrong wrote:It would be easier to coordinate if we just agree on 3 "universal scumreads" today.
3 instead of 2 because fun reason-
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Oh Goon
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I'll get back to him when I have analysis goggles onIn post 268, Gay Dance Gone Wrong wrote:and what do u think about Wisdom?
I kind of don't like his slot that much
He's readable over time though-
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Oh Goon
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Oh Goon
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Nor would I let her do that.In post 68, Dannflor wrote:
Fair enough.In post 67, Sakura Hana wrote:
Fun fact, in magical girls if i rolled scum i was planning on letting RC write my posts for me.In post 65, Dannflor wrote:Nancy can too unless you suspect RC will be writing her posts for her.
I do believe Enter has the capability though, and I don't think Ank has the ability to ghostwrite him.
Nor would she do that of her own volition.
I also support Shoshin for the baton (at least at page 7, where I am)In post 121, Shoshin wrote:
I also support myself for Baton.In post 56, Oversoul wrote:People I will never support for first round baton:
RC hydra
Ankamius hydra
Nacho
Wisdom
People I will support for baton:
Myself
Shoshin
I like your posts up until now. Including this one. To be clear, I'm quoting this because I agree with it and I also wanted to say that you have several +town points form me at this point.In post 122, Cephrir wrote:Why is every single game onsite about people with 2 games of meta thinking they're pro at reading each other now
Dont make me be grumprir this game I dont want toIn post 129, Gay Dance Gone Wrong wrote:
I'm going to sheep RC on Shoshin.In post 128, Shoshin wrote:I'm going to sheep someone on Cephrir, just need to figure out who knows him best.
I would... wait until RC is town first.In post 130, Shoshin wrote:That's probably a good idea.
I don't need you yet, just keep doing what you're doing.In post 149, Oh wrote:I'll be back when enter decides its time for me to put the analysis goggles on ty
She'll be back later, dw.In post 151, Dannflor wrote:
I feel like you say this every gameIn post 146, Oh wrote:This is already shaping up to be a game I will lose interest in pretty quickly
I like a lot of your posts as well.In post 181, Oversoul wrote:Gay Dance is now my strongest scum read. AMA.
I have to go do other things, so I'm stopping here for now, but I'll be back later.-
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Oh Goon
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Not me.In post 404, Dannflor wrote:What about me feels like scum, Enter?-
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Leashing people is a good way to remove responsibility for the action from the player making the action.In post 199, Dannflor wrote:
Why wouldn’t we? As long as one person isn’t just overriding everyone it potentially gives more information + greater accuracy.In post 195, Oh wrote:
Let's not do this pleaseIn post 190, Celestial Coordinates wrote:As an additional note, if we're not planning all the baton passes as a group together we're wasting the potential town equity of this setup.
I think regardless of how we play this game, we will have more than enough opinions voiced.In post 210, Dannflor wrote:It’s not about leashing it’s just about everyone voicing their opinion.
Sure. But do you trust the aggregate town reads?In post 219, Celestial Coordinates wrote:
if you're going to do this then you're out of the chain.In post 214, Oh wrote:Best case scenario, build a townblock and all agree to pass to each other first, then free for all
this setup is ludicrously townsided if we play it properly: town essentially only needs 5 correct townreads to win the game if we play it mathematically.
we give scum a billion times more maneuvering room if we allow them to control who lives and who dies and essentially give them control over more nightkills
Not entirely sure what you're getting at here, but I refuse to recognize "we will be shot n1" reasoning as any sort of viable argument.In post 220, Celestial Coordinates wrote:i think this entire question is really stupid because we're going to get shot n1 if we're not the original baton and as a result the baton is a meaningless question and we're better off deciding which 3 players we're removing in the first phase.
I don't think anyone is opposed to this?In post 238, Sakura Hana wrote:Basically what RC is suggesting is that instead of passing based on our reads we use baton pass mechanic as a way of having 2 additional lynches.
Considering mafia is a viable game for either town or scum, the latter seems to be a better shot than the former.In post 280, Something_Smart wrote:
That's a silly counterargument. The real question is whether universal scumreads are more likely to be right than the aggregation of a bunch of individual townreads.In post 274, Cephrir wrote: Yeah universal scumreads are never town
And it's not a silly counterargument.
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Alright, I'm confused and I'm not sure if anyone else is either, so I'm taking a break from catching up and I'd like to clear this up:
Is the proposition that we aggregate reads lists, agree on several universal scum reads, and pass the baton to everyone else? If so, I am opposed to this.
Is the proposition that we all voice our opinions and discuss each player in turn, but leave the decision ultimately to the player with the baton? I am not entirely opposed to this, but I think I have a third (maybe better?) proposition;
Does anyone feel strongly reading another player? If so, how viable would it be to make a chain of players by having all post which players in this game they feel comfortable reading (and if some feel comfortable with none, then give them certain players who have a tendency to spew). Then we build a chain, where each player in the sequence is responsible for reading the player after them -- if they trust them as town, they pass the baton, if they do not trust them as town, they skip that player in the chain, and we will come back at the end of the day. Responsibility, obviously, would not solely rely on the player with the baton, I expect everyone will continue to voice their opinion throughout the game and assist the baton holder (regardless of what I say, but also I think this is beneficial to the game).-
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A town player will die N1.In post 382, Celestial Coordinates wrote:
If no one protects us, we are very likely getting killed. RC is almost always targeted N1. YGM was an exception.In post 378, Dannflor wrote:
Who are the likeliest nightkills in your eyes? Celestial and Nacho?In post 374, Gay Dance Gone Wrong wrote:I don't think Shoshin is a likely nightkill.
This was an awkward place to ask this question.In post 417, Dannflor wrote:Oh, interesting.
I assume neither of you are ever going to sign your posts?
Where are your reads at currently?
Are you trying to talk to me, Dann?-
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I think you don't fully understand my suggestion, then?In post 454, Cephrir wrote:
You want to make this game about everything that I hate about the state of this website.In post 446, Oh wrote:Does anyone feel strongly reading another player? If so, how viable would it be to make a chain of players by having all post which players in this game they feel comfortable reading (and if some feel comfortable with none, then give them certain players who have a tendency to spew). Then we build a chain, where each player in the sequence is responsible for reading the player after them -- if they trust them as town, they pass the baton, if they do not trust them as town, they skip that player in the chain, and we will come back at the end of the day.
Not one solitary person is as much of a meta genius as they think they are. This is the worst suggestion I have read in a mafia game this year.
I'm not trying to take advantage of MS players as "meta-geniuses," I'm trying to apply greater responsibility to players. This isn't a ploy to make town find town, this is outing scum by making them take responsibility for their actions in greater regard than usual.
Do explain.In post 455, Celestial Coordinates wrote:I think that OH has a fairly high probability of being scum trying to push town to do basically anything besides the obvious correct thing.
At the very least I think it's a fact that they have been pushing scum wincondition harder than anyone else has to the point that we're currently at.-
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Because they actually see the post for what it is instead of just skimming and then assuming it's their worst nightmare?In post 459, Cephrir wrote:how do those of you who aren't unreasonable about this issue not get frustrated every time you see it happening?
i just want to play mafia and not Meta Connect Four.
Not Ankamius.In post 461, Celestial Coordinates wrote:Ankamius you feel like a caricature of yourself.-
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I don't need examples, I'm telling you that if you're town, you're town. Which is just like everyone else here. One of the town players will die night 1. If we protect you, then there is WIFOM about whether or not you're scum tomorrow, and then we have to waste a lynch on you when it could be used on someone better.In post 463, Celestial Coordinates wrote:Not just any town, we will die tonight like nearly every game RC isn’t protected. You guys should know this. Do I really need to list examples?
Only way we possibly won’t is of our reads are really off but RC also gets targeted when he’s wrong, like in Arch where RC tribute hydra allowed us to die.
You're aggressive this game.In post 464, Dannflor wrote:
I don't know who you even is.In post 456, Oh wrote:This was an awkward place to ask this question.
Are you trying to talk to me, Dann?
I am trying to talk to Enter.
Answer the question instead of commenting on awkward placement.
Why are you pushing for reads from me right now?
Are you not interested in the conversation at hand?
Explain, please, how the way you want to play the game is executively different? Give me examples of how your idea of how the game goes down differs from my idea of how the game goes down/In post 465, Cephrir wrote:
It's exactly the same as playing the setup naively (i.e. pass to your townread) except that you've assigned everyone a meta padawan for some reasonIn post 460, Oh wrote:I think you don't fully understand my suggestion, then?
I'm not trying to take advantage of MS players as "meta-geniuses," I'm trying to apply greater responsibility to players. This isn't a ploy to make town find town, this is outing scum by making them take responsibility for their actions in greater regard than usual.-
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Please quote me being an information slave. What are you even talking about here?In post 467, Celestial Coordinates wrote:That's even worse?
Since when have you been an information slave to the point of knee jerk sacrificing massive chunks of town equity at the altar of information?
I'm not supporting any of this.-
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Ok. Fair enough.In post 471, Cephrir wrote:We can't do rigid chain creation. Someone with an ego will break it and then we'll waste the entire rest of the game arguing about whether to lynch them for it.
I guess what I'm saying is I don't understand how different people's proposals are different.
Everyone will voice their opinion about who is scum and who is town. Leashing people is a good way to keep them from actually having to make solid decisions and this is one game mode where your actions matter a lot and can say a lot about you.
I have no problem voting to lynch two players at the end of the day, but who the baton gets passed to is in the hands of the baton holder regardless of what everyone agrees on. And to continue this line of thought, regardless of what we agree on, we will still disagree on whether or not we should lynch individual instances of players breaking what the players agree on.
I made a mistake making a suggestion, I should have stopped before I wrote that line. At this point I believe that regardless of what we discuss and agree on, the execution doesn't matter.-
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That wasn't me.In post 475, Celestial Coordinates wrote:Like, I was pretty clear that I wanted town consensus scumreads (that i would obviously contribute to, probably disproportionately, but) and you knee jerk were like NAH NOT LETTING YOU LEASH ME RC.
Every time the argument about how protecting a player that isn't someone scum wants to nightkill comes up you keeping being like 'NAH BUT TOWN ARE GONNA DIE ANYWAY.'
Also, that doesn't coincide with the statement you made earlier. You can't just use big words aggressively and expect everyone to trust you're saying something smarter than you understand.
Yes.
Youand then we have to waste a lynch on youhaveto?
Anyone with any mafia experience knows this won't go through in execution no matter how much everyone agrees to it.
Or we could lynch them. We're lynching 10 players anyway during this game. I have no problem with potentially having to lynch a townie to make sure that scum have no special control over the lynches.We can't do rigid chain creation. Someone with an ego will break it and then we'll waste the entire rest of the game arguing about whether to lynch them for it.
Here's a link to the game you're posting in: viewtopic.php?f=3&t=81030
You were the one saying dumb shit about how we need to let scum control the direction of the baton pass for 'information'Please quote me being an information slave. What are you even talking about here?
I'm not supporting any of this.
You seem to be unaware of it.
(To be less snarky -- No, I'm not saying any of that. I haven't even mentioned "information" or said that word once. What are you talking about?)-
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For the third time, this isn't Ank. Ank doesn't type like this. I expect you to know the difference by now, considering you're talking to us like you know us?In post 480, Celestial Coordinates wrote:Ank, aren’t you forgetting, I’m in this game too?
Not sure what you're getting at here:
Because it makes no sense whatsoever. Like the words are ones that I don't understand in that sequence.Iow, you spec argument about WIFOM wrt RC scum would make that pretty much a non-issue, so that’s not great reasoning.-
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Ok, good.In post 482, Dannflor wrote:Nice observation.
Because I scum read you currently and that's a read I want to examine more closely.
I am not. I've stated my thoughts. I err on the side of town discussing and deciding the baton order together before night.
I like your process here. I'll get to reads in a little bit, I do have a few but they're about as solid as jello right now. I'll get back to this after I clear up some other stuff in the thread, but I definitely want to talk to you more.-
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Yes, I'm disputing this very much so.In post 484, Celestial Coordinates wrote:
I can’t speak for RC but you do tend to hard push info lynches. Are you disputing this?In post 472, Oh wrote:
Please quote me being an information slave. What are you even talking about here?In post 467, Celestial Coordinates wrote:That's even worse?
Since when have you been an information slave to the point of knee jerk sacrificing massive chunks of town equity at the altar of information?
I'm not supporting any of this.
Please quote where I did any of the "information slaving" you're accusing me of.-
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It sucks to have to realize that in the end you carry no more weight than most other town players, I know.In post 500, Celestial Coordinates wrote:I'm really unhappy if OH is anything but scum. Hopefully they're just scum.-
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Find three lobbies where this went through in practice not theory and I'll dismiss my thought of you as someone who plays a lot of mafia but has no clue what is actually viable as far as player agreement.In post 494, Celestial Coordinates wrote:
i don't think it would be especially hard to make it happen.In post 489, Oh wrote:Anyone with any mafia experience knows this won't go through in execution no matter how much everyone agrees to it.
in fact i think in most lobbies it would be easy, just that this game has a lot of people who have big ideas
So, what? It's against code to ever let my slot go to endgame is what you're saying and this entire argument is coded you refusing to let me influence the game at all because I might be scum?Yes.
And no, it's not against code to let your slot go to end game, it's against code to insta-bulletproof your slot because while RC's reads are good, your slot has been toxic and egotistical this game and more of that is not going to push a solid town together.-
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Quote me saying this.In post 507, Celestial Coordinates wrote:
Your slot is arguing against the obvious correct play of having 3 lynches in favor of 'having more information and knowing who chose who.'In post 505, Oh wrote:Yes, I'm disputing this very much so.
Please quote where I did any of the "information slaving" you're accusing me of.
that's information slaving.
Quote me saying "in favor of having more information" somewhere. Anywhere.
Also, quote how my style of playing the game removes the ability to have 3 lynches. Please explain that as well.
You're grossly misrepresenting me right now which is why I'm asking you to quote me. I think you're seeing what you believe to be opposition to everything you're doing and then you're assuming the stance I'm taking instead of legitimately trying to understand it.-
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I don't want you lynched before endgame because you're good at scum.In post 510, Celestial Coordinates wrote:
Funny that you make a dig at my weight in the lobby right after making a post about how IIn post 506, Oh wrote:
It sucks to have to realize that in the end you carry no more weight than most other town players, I know.In post 500, Celestial Coordinates wrote:I'm really unhappy if OH is anything but scum. Hopefully they're just scum.ABSOLUTELY MUSTbe lynched before endgame because I'm the true endboss of mafiascum.net
I want you lynched before endgame because the way you're playing the game is generally toxic, counter-productive to any semblance of approach to Socratic discussion, and overall anti-town.-
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I, also, want to lynch certain scummy people and intend to do everything i can to make sure scum get lynched? I'm not sure how your idea is so polar to any other idea in practice?In post 521, Celestial Coordinates wrote:it may be boring but establishing that we're going to actually lynch certain scummy people as opposed to let scum make sure that the lynches fall on town is more +town equity than any amount of sorting
I'm not contesting what you agreed on. I'm contesting the "we will lynch anyone who varies from consensus."
I literally can't come up with an example where we had an organized approach to the game from the start and people fucked off and did their own thing without being scum pretending to be town.Find three lobbies where this went through in practice not theory and I'll dismiss my thought of you as someone who plays a lot of mafia but has no clue what is actually viable as far as player agreement.
And no, it's not against code to let your slot go to end game, it's against code to insta-bulletproof your slot because while RC's reads are good, your slot has been toxic and egotistical this game and more of that is not going to push a solid town together.
There was FG's dance game where we decided the lynch order before any lynches went through and won because of it.
You've already made multiple posts about how you need to be protected day 1 to prevent you from dying night 1 indicating you believe your slot carries more weight than any other slot. You have accused people of game throwing for disagreeing with you. You've claimed you hope we're scum because we disagree with you.
clarify thisyour slot has been toxic and egotistical-
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I'm not assuming you are not the most likely N1 NK if you are town. Please quote me assuming this or saying this.In post 525, Celestial Coordinates wrote:Guys, is it possible to avoid a MG Krazy/RC redux?
Oh is just very wrong in not assuming we are the most likely N1 NK.
I haven’t confidently sorted them yet but I don’t want this to wind up in a battle of egos.
I am suspicious that Oh wouldn’t want us protected but Ank doesn’t sound here like she did in Timeshift, so still a null for me.-
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I think you don't understand how protection in this game works.In post 532, Celestial Coordinates wrote:Oh, do you or do you not think that we have the highest NK equity as town? Forget the ego thing and your issues with RC, just answer that please.
Also, what "ego thing?"-
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Those are both Ankamius.In post 526, Celestial Coordinates wrote:Are these both Ankamius?
You're arguing against having set baton pass lynches: true or false?
I think it doesn't matter if we agree on lynches or not and the discussion of such is pointless. I think of regardless what we agree on as "how we will play this game," people will offer their opinions, people will build town blocks, and people will reach a consensus on who is scum and who isn't. I think saying "we're going to lynch scum and pass the baton to town" is silly because that's what everyone is trying to do.
Please cite a post that's toxic or anti-town.Spoiler:-
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Alright.
I can work with RC.
RC - Ank and I had a discussion prior to the game - Nancy has a relatively large resume of misreading Ank because she thinks she had a strong meta on her regardless of on multiple occasions reading her improperly. Partially for that reason, I wasn't signing, because I wanted to help get the idea out of her head that she could read Ank.
Sorry for calling you toxic, the swap between RC and Nancy threw me for a loop and I was only half-aware when y'all swapped - Trying to respond to RC posts over Nancy posts got difficult. Our slot is honestly just trying to deal with Nancy as soon as possible and then ignore her after we both grudgingly accept that we aren't likely to get along. As for which posts are mine -- pretty much everything after the second catch-up post is mine, and after the original scuffle this morning between you and Ank, she hasn't responded to your slot yet.-
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Are you implying that saying everyone else is gamethrowing for disagreeing with you is pro-town?In post 562, Sakura Hana wrote:TIL that Nancy saying im obvtown and i should be passed the baton is toxic or anti-town.
I think you missed the reason I quoted that post.-
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