Baton Pass [Game Over!]

[Oh]

Hi, you may call me General Edmund Duke of the Aloha Squadron. I have defended Tarsonis from over thirty major battles, so I know it's defenses inside and out.

Any questions?

[Oh]

There's a lot we can learn from the zerg if we don't die first.

[Oh]

Game time!

VOTE: Something_Smart

Very good!

VOTE: Something_Smart

[Oh]

I'm ready to hammer.

[Oh]

I'd be okay hammering myself, yes.

[Oh]

Tldr the last 6 pages?

[Oh]

Lmao I'm already getting paranoided

Nice

[Oh]

Wait has Oversoul even seen my scumgame???

[Oh]

This is already shaping up to be a game I will lose interest in pretty quickly

[Oh]

I'll be back when enter decides its time for me to put the analysis goggles on ty

[Oh]

This is already shaping up to be a game I will lose interest in pretty quickly

I feel like you say this every game

I think this plist is one I won't have any success with if I throw my weight around

[Oh]

If Oh doesn’t make their avatar Professor Oak saying “Oh?” in Pokémon Snap I will never townread them.

Thank you for volunteering to find one!

[Oh]

Here's a pro tip.
To draw Anka in we have to play this game as suboptimally as possible
She'll rush in here pulling her hair out!

Also wtf

[Oh]

I think I don't want any of my slot, Gay Dance, or wisdom baton passed so far

[Oh]

Kinda don't want Shoshin voted either

[Oh]

Sakura is probably an inefficient vote

[Oh]

As an additional note, if we're not planning all the baton passes as a group together we're wasting the potential town equity of this setup.

Let's not do this please

[Oh]

How does it give more info exactly?

[Oh]

And no I'm not going to be leashed to a target, I will choose someone I think is town because I'm not interested in the entire game being about the setup

This shit is how towns get to endgame and realize that there really isn't enough there to reliably fish out the last scum.

It's a TRAP.

[Oh]

Best case scenario, build a townblock and all agree to pass to each other first, then free for all

[Oh]

Ok RC leave us out then, I'm not letting you leash me.

[Oh]

Ok RC leave us out then, I'm not letting you leash me.

if all the other players who understand how mafia works agree with me that it's incredibly anti-town not to have a lynch chain agreed on support me will you go along or are you just refusing to play this in the optimal way for town

Yeah and what happens when it inevitably doesn't get followed

Even if you leave me out, SOMEONE will break the chain and then it just fucks everything up, and you can't even really call them scum since town are more likely to do that than scum is

Even barring that, I've seen so many towns fall apart from focusing almost entirely on mechanics that I really can't stand behind strategies like this even if it's "optimal"

Just play mafia and build strong townblocks, then use the information from that to narrow down the scumteam

It's better for my sanity that way

[Oh]

It would be easier to coordinate if we just agree on 3 "universal scumreads" today.

3 instead of 2 because fun reason

Can we at least agree to this then?

Consensus on how to treat the pass is better imo but this is fine

[Oh]

Ftr I have no reads yet ama

[Oh]

Btw Dann it's because I think Sakura is more readable depending on who she chooses towards the middle

She's one of those people that I think will be predictable towards the front

[Oh]

Idk yet

I'm more interested in going through that backwards

[Oh]

Idk yet

I'm more interested in going through that backwards

and what do u think about Wisdom?

I kind of don't like his slot that much

I'll get back to him when I have analysis goggles on

He's readable over time though

[Oh]

I lied I actually do have townreads!

[Oh]

Is it a hot take that wisdom is one of them?

[Oh]

VOTE: nacho

Obvtown

[Oh]

Oversoul feels way different from starry night and that zaph game I skimmed from my coffin

[Oh]

Yukz are you an alt?

[Oh]

I don't althunt until I'm given a reason to care

[Oh]

Why

[Oh]

When did the feeling start

[Oh]

I think I understand what she's getting at and it's an interesting take

I'll have to double check some stuff

[Oh]

Nancy can too unless you suspect RC will be writing her posts for her.

Fun fact, in magical girls if i rolled scum i was planning on letting RC write my posts for me.

Fair enough.

I do believe Enter has the capability though, and I don't think Ank has the ability to ghostwrite him.

Nor would I let her do that.
Nor would she do that of her own volition.

People I will never support for first round baton:
RC hydra
Ankamius hydra
Nacho
Wisdom

People I will support for baton:
Myself
Shoshin

I also support myself for Baton.

I also support Shoshin for the baton (at least at page 7, where I am)

Why is every single game onsite about people with 2 games of meta thinking they're pro at reading each other now

Dont make me be grumprir this game I dont want to

I like your posts up until now. Including this one. To be clear, I'm quoting this because I agree with it and I also wanted to say that you have several +town points form me at this point.

I'm going to sheep someone on Cephrir, just need to figure out who knows him best.

I'm going to sheep RC on Shoshin.

That's probably a good idea.

I would... wait until RC is town first.

I'll be back when enter decides its time for me to put the analysis goggles on ty

I don't need you yet, just keep doing what you're doing.

This is already shaping up to be a game I will lose interest in pretty quickly

I feel like you say this every game

She'll be back later, dw.

Gay Dance is now my strongest scum read. AMA.

I like a lot of your posts as well.

I have to go do other things, so I'm stopping here for now, but I'll be back later.

[Oh]

Btw Dann why do you feel like scum this game?

[Oh]

What about me feels like scum, Enter?

Not me.

[Oh]

As an additional note, if we're not planning all the baton passes as a group together we're wasting the potential town equity of this setup.

Let's not do this please

Why wouldn’t we? As long as one person isn’t just overriding everyone it potentially gives more information + greater accuracy.

Leashing people is a good way to remove responsibility for the action from the player making the action.

It’s not about leashing it’s just about everyone voicing their opinion.

I think regardless of how we play this game, we will have more than enough opinions voiced.

Best case scenario, build a townblock and all agree to pass to each other first, then free for all

if you're going to do this then you're out of the chain.
this setup is ludicrously townsided if we play it properly: town essentially only needs 5 correct townreads to win the game if we play it mathematically.
we give scum a billion times more maneuvering room if we allow them to control who lives and who dies and essentially give them control over more nightkills

Sure. But do you trust the aggregate town reads?

i think this entire question is really stupid because we're going to get shot n1 if we're not the original baton and as a result the baton is a meaningless question and we're better off deciding which 3 players we're removing in the first phase.

Not entirely sure what you're getting at here, but I refuse to recognize "we will be shot n1" reasoning as any sort of viable argument.

Basically what RC is suggesting is that instead of passing based on our reads we use baton pass mechanic as a way of having 2 additional lynches.

I don't think anyone is opposed to this?

Yeah universal scumreads are never town

That's a silly counterargument. The real question is whether universal scumreads are more likely to be right than the aggregation of a bunch of individual townreads.

Considering mafia is a viable game for either town or scum, the latter seems to be a better shot than the former.

And it's not a silly counterargument.


================================================

Alright, I'm confused and I'm not sure if anyone else is either, so I'm taking a break from catching up and I'd like to clear this up:

Is the proposition that we aggregate reads lists, agree on several universal scum reads, and pass the baton to everyone else? If so, I am opposed to this.

Is the proposition that we all voice our opinions and discuss each player in turn, but leave the decision ultimately to the player with the baton? I am not entirely opposed to this, but I think I have a third (maybe better?) proposition;

Does anyone feel strongly reading another player? If so, how viable would it be to make a chain of players by having all post which players in this game they feel comfortable reading (and if some feel comfortable with none, then give them certain players who have a tendency to spew). Then we build a chain, where each player in the sequence is responsible for reading the player after them -- if they trust them as town, they pass the baton, if they do not trust them as town, they skip that player in the chain, and we will come back at the end of the day. Responsibility, obviously, would not solely rely on the player with the baton, I expect everyone will continue to voice their opinion throughout the game and assist the baton holder (regardless of what I say, but also I think this is beneficial to the game).

[Oh]

I don't think Shoshin is a likely nightkill.

Who are the likeliest nightkills in your eyes? Celestial and Nacho?

If no one protects us, we are very likely getting killed. RC is almost always targeted N1. YGM was an exception.

A town player will die N1.

What about me feels like scum, Enter?

Not me.

Oh, interesting.

I assume neither of you are ever going to sign your posts?

Where are your reads at currently?

This was an awkward place to ask this question.

Are you trying to talk to me, Dann?

[Oh]

Does anyone feel strongly reading another player? If so, how viable would it be to make a chain of players by having all post which players in this game they feel comfortable reading (and if some feel comfortable with none, then give them certain players who have a tendency to spew). Then we build a chain, where each player in the sequence is responsible for reading the player after them -- if they trust them as town, they pass the baton, if they do not trust them as town, they skip that player in the chain, and we will come back at the end of the day.

You want to make this game about everything that I hate about the state of this website.

Not one solitary person is as much of a meta genius as they think they are. This is the worst suggestion I have read in a mafia game this year.

I think you don't fully understand my suggestion, then?

I'm not trying to take advantage of MS players as "meta-geniuses," I'm trying to apply greater responsibility to players. This isn't a ploy to make town find town, this is outing scum by making them take responsibility for their actions in greater regard than usual.

I think that OH has a fairly high probability of being scum trying to push town to do basically anything besides the obvious correct thing.

At the very least I think it's a fact that they have been pushing scum wincondition harder than anyone else has to the point that we're currently at.

Do explain.

[Oh]

how do those of you who aren't unreasonable about this issue not get frustrated every time you see it happening?

i just want to play mafia and not Meta Connect Four.

Because they actually see the post for what it is instead of just skimming and then assuming it's their worst nightmare?

Ankamius you feel like a caricature of yourself.

Not Ankamius.

[Oh]

Not just any town, we will die tonight like nearly every game RC isn’t protected. You guys should know this. Do I really need to list examples?

Only way we possibly won’t is of our reads are really off but RC also gets targeted when he’s wrong, like in Arch where RC tribute hydra allowed us to die.

I don't need examples, I'm telling you that if you're town, you're town. Which is just like everyone else here. One of the town players will die night 1. If we protect you, then there is WIFOM about whether or not you're scum tomorrow, and then we have to waste a lynch on you when it could be used on someone better.

This was an awkward place to ask this question.

Are you trying to talk to me, Dann?

I don't know who you even is.

I am trying to talk to Enter.

Answer the question instead of commenting on awkward placement.

You're aggressive this game.

Why are you pushing for reads from me right now?

Are you not interested in the conversation at hand?

I think you don't fully understand my suggestion, then?

I'm not trying to take advantage of MS players as "meta-geniuses," I'm trying to apply greater responsibility to players. This isn't a ploy to make town find town, this is outing scum by making them take responsibility for their actions in greater regard than usual.

It's exactly the same as playing the setup naively (i.e. pass to your townread) except that you've assigned everyone a meta padawan for some reason

Explain, please, how the way you want to play the game is executively different? Give me examples of how your idea of how the game goes down differs from my idea of how the game goes down/

[Oh]

That's even worse?

Since when have you been an information slave to the point of knee jerk sacrificing massive chunks of town equity at the altar of information?

Please quote me being an information slave. What are you even talking about here?

I'm not supporting any of this.

[Oh]

We can't do rigid chain creation. Someone with an ego will break it and then we'll waste the entire rest of the game arguing about whether to lynch them for it.

Ok. Fair enough.

I guess what I'm saying is I don't understand how different people's proposals are different.

Everyone will voice their opinion about who is scum and who is town. Leashing people is a good way to keep them from actually having to make solid decisions and this is one game mode where your actions matter a lot and can say a lot about you.

I have no problem voting to lynch two players at the end of the day, but who the baton gets passed to is in the hands of the baton holder regardless of what everyone agrees on. And to continue this line of thought, regardless of what we agree on, we will still disagree on whether or not we should lynch individual instances of players breaking what the players agree on.

I made a mistake making a suggestion, I should have stopped before I wrote that line. At this point I believe that regardless of what we discuss and agree on, the execution doesn't matter.

[Oh]

Like, I was pretty clear that I wanted town consensus scumreads (that i would obviously contribute to, probably disproportionately, but) and you knee jerk were like NAH NOT LETTING YOU LEASH ME RC.
Every time the argument about how protecting a player that isn't someone scum wants to nightkill comes up you keeping being like 'NAH BUT TOWN ARE GONNA DIE ANYWAY.'

That wasn't me.

Also, that doesn't coincide with the statement you made earlier. You can't just use big words aggressively and expect everyone to trust you're saying something smarter than you understand.

and then we have to waste a lynch on you

You

have

to?

Yes.

We can't do rigid chain creation. Someone with an ego will break it and then we'll waste the entire rest of the game arguing about whether to lynch them for it.

Or we could lynch them. We're lynching 10 players anyway during this game. I have no problem with potentially having to lynch a townie to make sure that scum have no special control over the lynches.

Anyone with any mafia experience knows this won't go through in execution no matter how much everyone agrees to it.

Please quote me being an information slave. What are you even talking about here?

I'm not supporting any of this.

You were the one saying dumb shit about how we need to let scum control the direction of the baton pass for 'information'

Here's a link to the game you're posting in: viewtopic.php?f=3&t=81030

You seem to be unaware of it.

(To be less snarky -- No, I'm not saying any of that. I haven't even mentioned "information" or said that word once. What are you talking about?)

[Oh]

Ank, aren’t you forgetting, I’m in this game too?

For the third time, this isn't Ank. Ank doesn't type like this. I expect you to know the difference by now, considering you're talking to us like you know us?

Not sure what you're getting at here:

Iow, you spec argument about WIFOM wrt RC scum would make that pretty much a non-issue, so that’s not great reasoning.

Because it makes no sense whatsoever. Like the words are ones that I don't understand in that sequence.

[Oh]

Nice observation.

Because I scum read you currently and that's a read I want to examine more closely.

I am not. I've stated my thoughts. I err on the side of town discussing and deciding the baton order together before night.

Ok, good.

I like your process here. I'll get to reads in a little bit, I do have a few but they're about as solid as jello right now. I'll get back to this after I clear up some other stuff in the thread, but I definitely want to talk to you more.

[Oh]

That's even worse?

Since when have you been an information slave to the point of knee jerk sacrificing massive chunks of town equity at the altar of information?

Please quote me being an information slave. What are you even talking about here?

I'm not supporting any of this.

I can’t speak for RC but you do tend to hard push info lynches. Are you disputing this?

Yes, I'm disputing this very much so.

Please quote where I did any of the "information slaving" you're accusing me of.

[Oh]

I'm really unhappy if OH is anything but scum. Hopefully they're just scum.

It sucks to have to realize that in the end you carry no more weight than most other town players, I know.

[Oh]

Anyone with any mafia experience knows this won't go through in execution no matter how much everyone agrees to it.

i don't think it would be especially hard to make it happen.
in fact i think in most lobbies it would be easy, just that this game has a lot of people who have big ideas

Yes.

So, what? It's against code to ever let my slot go to endgame is what you're saying and this entire argument is coded you refusing to let me influence the game at all because I might be scum?

Find three lobbies where this went through in practice not theory and I'll dismiss my thought of you as someone who plays a lot of mafia but has no clue what is actually viable as far as player agreement.

And no, it's not against code to let your slot go to end game, it's against code to insta-bulletproof your slot because while RC's reads are good, your slot has been toxic and egotistical this game and more of that is not going to push a solid town together.

[Oh]

Yes, I'm disputing this very much so.

Please quote where I did any of the "information slaving" you're accusing me of.

Your slot is arguing against the obvious correct play of having 3 lynches in favor of 'having more information and knowing who chose who.'

that's information slaving.

Quote me saying this.

Quote me saying "in favor of having more information" somewhere. Anywhere.

Also, quote how my style of playing the game removes the ability to have 3 lynches. Please explain that as well.

You're grossly misrepresenting me right now which is why I'm asking you to quote me. I think you're seeing what you believe to be opposition to everything you're doing and then you're assuming the stance I'm taking instead of legitimately trying to understand it.

[Oh]

I'm really unhappy if OH is anything but scum. Hopefully they're just scum.

It sucks to have to realize that in the end you carry no more weight than most other town players, I know.

Funny that you make a dig at my weight in the lobby right after making a post about how I

ABSOLUTELY MUST

be lynched before endgame because I'm the true endboss of mafiascum.net

I don't want you lynched before endgame because you're good at scum.

I want you lynched before endgame because the way you're playing the game is generally toxic, counter-productive to any semblance of approach to Socratic discussion, and overall anti-town.

[Oh]

it may be boring but establishing that we're going to actually lynch certain scummy people as opposed to let scum make sure that the lynches fall on town is more +town equity than any amount of sorting

I, also, want to lynch certain scummy people and intend to do everything i can to make sure scum get lynched? I'm not sure how your idea is so polar to any other idea in practice?

Find three lobbies where this went through in practice not theory and I'll dismiss my thought of you as someone who plays a lot of mafia but has no clue what is actually viable as far as player agreement.

And no, it's not against code to let your slot go to end game, it's against code to insta-bulletproof your slot because while RC's reads are good, your slot has been toxic and egotistical this game and more of that is not going to push a solid town together.

I literally can't come up with an example where we had an organized approach to the game from the start and people fucked off and did their own thing without being scum pretending to be town.
There was FG's dance game where we decided the lynch order before any lynches went through and won because of it.

I'm not contesting what you agreed on. I'm contesting the "we will lynch anyone who varies from consensus."

your slot has been toxic and egotistical

clarify this

You've already made multiple posts about how you need to be protected day 1 to prevent you from dying night 1 indicating you believe your slot carries more weight than any other slot. You have accused people of game throwing for disagreeing with you. You've claimed you hope we're scum because we disagree with you.

[Oh]

Guys, is it possible to avoid a MG Krazy/RC redux?

Oh is just very wrong in not assuming we are the most likely N1 NK.

I haven’t confidently sorted them yet but I don’t want this to wind up in a battle of egos.

I am suspicious that Oh wouldn’t want us protected but Ank doesn’t sound here like she did in Timeshift, so still a null for me.

I'm not assuming you are not the most likely N1 NK if you are town. Please quote me assuming this or saying this.

[Oh]

Oh, do you or do you not think that we have the highest NK equity as town? Forget the ego thing and your issues with RC, just answer that please.

I think you don't understand how protection in this game works.

Also, what "ego thing?"

[Oh]

Are these both Ankamius?
You're arguing against having set baton pass lynches: true or false?

Those are both Ankamius.

I think it doesn't matter if we agree on lynches or not and the discussion of such is pointless. I think of regardless what we agree on as "how we will play this game," people will offer their opinions, people will build town blocks, and people will reach a consensus on who is scum and who isn't. I think saying "we're going to lynch scum and pass the baton to town" is silly because that's what everyone is trying to do.

Please cite a post that's toxic or anti-town.

Spoiler:

If people are going to knee jerk refuse us for round 1 baton then I'm going to hold off on playing until the round 1 baton is over.

i think we can agree on who passes to who and who is left out and lynch anyone who deviates from it.
if we can't do that because town are playing anti-town then this game is functionally unwinnable for town anyway.
this game is balanced off of the assumption that the day phases balance as 3 lynches.

I don't think Shoshin is a likely nightkill.

Who are the likeliest nightkills in your eyes? Celestial and Nacho?

If no one protects us, we are very likely getting killed. RC is almost always targeted N1. YGM was an exception.

Oh, just read the setup. Oof no town protectives.

We're voting for who is going to be bulletproof tonight, Nancy.

I realize that Dann and we’ll almost certainly be the N1 NK unless bp. You should know that.

Nancy's town
VOTE: CC

RC has a reputation for being killed on N1.

I don't.

Sakura, Shoshin are my top tr.

If the baton doesn’t get passed to them, you all are gamethrowing.

[Oh]

Alright.

I can work with RC.

RC - Ank and I had a discussion prior to the game - Nancy has a relatively large resume of misreading Ank because she thinks she had a strong meta on her regardless of on multiple occasions reading her improperly. Partially for that reason, I wasn't signing, because I wanted to help get the idea out of her head that she could read Ank.

Sorry for calling you toxic, the swap between RC and Nancy threw me for a loop and I was only half-aware when y'all swapped - Trying to respond to RC posts over Nancy posts got difficult. Our slot is honestly just trying to deal with Nancy as soon as possible and then ignore her after we both grudgingly accept that we aren't likely to get along. As for which posts are mine -- pretty much everything after the second catch-up post is mine, and after the original scuffle this morning between you and Ank, she hasn't responded to your slot yet.

[Oh]

TIL that Nancy saying im obvtown and i should be passed the baton is toxic or anti-town.

Are you implying that saying everyone else is gamethrowing for disagreeing with you is pro-town?
I think you missed the reason I quoted that post.

[Oh]

I have NO intention of butting heads w/ RC. He's relatively reasonable and I intend to be civil w/ him like I am in every other game.

[Oh]

I have NO intention of butting heads w/ RC. He's relatively reasonable and I intend to be civil w/ him like I am in every other game.

Obviously things went awry. We'll fix this, though.

[Oh]

I don't see your problem with this.
I don't care who gets the round 1 baton pass if it's not us because if we don't get it we're dying.
I instead wanted to talk about scumreads because those actually matter.

Alright, I follow.

Sure, let's talk about scum reads, then.

[Oh]

Everything between 414 and right now is me.

Starting now I'll start signing.

RC I have nothing against you. Bring up anything you have against me, let's get it settled and move on.

-E

[Oh]

Reads:

So far I like Shoshin, and she brings up a good point against Wisdom.
I haven't been a particular fan of some of Yukz earlier posts - specifically his responses to Wisdom ~287 and his post about S_S in 305 was specifically untrue.
Nacho has been good this game.
Sakura Hana has been leaning on the town side of NAI.
GDGW hasn't done anything I liked (as far as I've seen) and his town reminds me of my own during Anuket.

[Oh]

Reads:

So far I like Shoshin, and she brings up a good point against Wisdom.
I haven't been a particular fan of some of Yukz earlier posts - specifically his responses to Wisdom ~287 and his post about S_S in 305 was specifically untrue.
Nacho has been good this game.
Sakura Hana has been leaning on the town side of NAI.
GDGW hasn't done anything I liked (as far as I've seen) and his town reminds me of my own during Anuket.

-E

Also I like Cephrir and gameplay hasn't done anything I like yet.

[Oh]

Alright, Dann, ball's in your court.

What are your reads?

Nacho has been good this game.

I thought he was underwhelming so far. What did you like?

I like Nacho the same way I like Cephrir - their posts are +town gamestate. There's nothing that scum couldn't relatively easily replicate, but it would be suboptimal for a mafia aligned player to try.

[Oh]

I swear this site makes my grammar and spelling worse.

I used to constantly use big words and talk down to people before I played MS enough to learn how to interact with people properly.
@OH it's fine I felt like you were taking jabs at me for being me wrt wanting a policy lynch on me while refusing to take my reads at all seriously and essentially just setting me up to be nightkilled in a bad way. Not, like, I want someone else to be protected more but it felt like you just specifically wanted me to be a viable kill.

I understand. I'm not trying to prevent you from being bullet-proof. My fear was that the game would quickly become overrun by discussion of defending you above all because you provide +town equity if you are town, and I wanted to squash that argument before we reached that point. It turns out my fears were invalid, and I apologize. I don't mind you being protected first, but I would like it to be because people legitimately think you're town and not some overall meta argument.

[Oh]

Alright, Dann, ball's in your court.

What are your reads?

Nacho has been good this game.

I thought he was underwhelming so far. What did you like?

I like Nacho the same way I like Cephrir - their posts are +town gamestate. There's nothing that scum couldn't relatively easily replicate, but it would be suboptimal for a mafia aligned player to try.

I swear this site makes my grammar and spelling worse.

I used to constantly use big words and talk down to people before I played MS enough to learn how to interact with people properly.
@OH it's fine I felt like you were taking jabs at me for being me wrt wanting a policy lynch on me while refusing to take my reads at all seriously and essentially just setting me up to be nightkilled in a bad way. Not, like, I want someone else to be protected more but it felt like you just specifically wanted me to be a viable kill.

I understand. I'm not trying to prevent you from being bullet-proof. My fear was that the game would quickly become overrun by discussion of defending you above all because you provide +town equity if you are town, and I wanted to squash that argument before we reached that point. It turns out my fears were invalid, and I apologize. I don't mind you being protected first, but I would like it to be because people legitimately think you're town and not some overall meta argument.

These were both -E

Gameplay was my secret scumread but since Nancy and Dannflor already expressed that as well, I'll out it as well.

...Enter and Dannflor?

I don't mind you being protected first, but I would like it to be because people legitimately think you're town and not some overall meta argument.

If that's true, why aren't you voting for them?

Don't read "I think you should be protected first," read "If you're protected first because people are legitimately town reading you, that's ok with me. I'm not opposed to it."

TBH I'm not really sure how you can read it the former way anyways?

-E

[Oh]

Isn't Shoshin echoing my sentiments on Wisdom with the addition of her self awareness point?

Oh, who do you want to baton kill and who do you want to be BP?

directed @OH

Somewhat? I didn't like how you responded to Wisdom originally. Not sure how to describe it, this part in particular was more gut than anything. I'm not sure agree with that part of the argument against wisdom anyways, TBH.
BP Shoshin
Kill gameplay probably

-E

[Oh]

Don't read "I think you should be protected first," read "If you're protected first because people are legitimately town reading you, that's ok with me. I'm not opposed to it."

TBH I'm not really sure how you can read it the former way anyways?

This implies you townread the Cici hydra, right?

No.

[Oh]

I don't understand where you get the idea that I'm townreading CiCi?

-E

[Oh]

...Enter and Dannflor?

You as well but Nancy sent me a discord scumreading them at about the same time.

Oh, alright.

Sakura's the universal townread I'm struggling with

I don't

scumread

her. I just don't think I've seen enough to be like gung ho yeah she's town.

She's my weakest town read in my lean town tier

Yeah I'm about the same place y'all are.

-E

[Oh]

Oh would you baton kill Wisdom?

Under what circumstance?

-E

[Oh]

I don't understand where you get the idea that I'm townreading CiCi?

-E

I don't see how you can be ok with town giving Cici the BP ability if you're not town reading Cici in the first place. Even at null, I don't think

I

would be ok with town giving Cici the BP ability.

I'm not saying I'm ok with town giving CiCi the BP ability right now.
I'm saying as a general overall rule in any and every game I only want CiCi made bullet proof after there is legitimate reason to think they're town, and not based on the argument that "RC provides a lot of +town equity if he is town, therefore we should save him regardless of alignment."

[Oh]

I don't understand where you get the idea that I'm townreading CiCi?

-E

I don't see how you can be ok with town giving Cici the BP ability if you're not town reading Cici in the first place. Even at null, I don't think

I

would be ok with town giving Cici the BP ability.

I'm not saying I'm ok with town giving CiCi the BP ability right now.
I'm saying as a general overall rule in any and every game I only want CiCi made bullet proof after there is legitimate reason to think they're town, and not based on the argument that "RC provides a lot of +town equity if he is town, therefore we should save him regardless of alignment."

-E

[Oh]

Oh would you baton kill Wisdom?

Under what circumstance?

-E

If you're asking if I'd do it right now if given the opportunity with no further gameplay, no. I wouldn't.

[Oh]

Oh would you baton kill Wisdom?

Under what circumstance?

-E

Right now if you could decide which two players would be flipped would one of them be Wisdom? Other one is gameplay if I'm not wrong.

And if a majority of people want to have Wisdom flipped, would you argue against that?

I wouldn't argue for it or against it. I don't feel certain enough with my reads to feel comfortable with BPing Shoshin and killing gameplay right now, TBH.

[Oh]

This line of questioning is another thing I don't like from Yukz.

[Oh]

Oh would you baton kill Wisdom?

Under what circumstance?

-E

Right now if you could decide which two players would be flipped would one of them be Wisdom? Other one is gameplay if I'm not wrong.

And if a majority of people want to have Wisdom flipped, would you argue against that?

I wouldn't argue for it or against it. I don't feel certain enough with my reads to feel comfortable with BPing Shoshin and killing gameplay right now, TBH.

This line of questioning is another thing I don't like from Yukz.

-E.

Also in case I forget to sign for a bit, most of these posts are probably me. I don't think Ank plans to engage the game until things have calmed down a little and there's a little more strength to reads.

[Oh]

This line of questioning is another thing I don't like from Yukz.

Why?

They are trying to get you to take a stance on Wisdom

that seems like an attempt to sort to me

Because I've already stated my reads are weak at best
Because it's trying to force players within 24 hours of game start to take strong stances.
Because it seems like an attempt to sort.

What are your reads, Dann?

[Oh]

I like Nacho. I don't know if this is alignment indicative.

how so?

The way he approaches the game is very similar to me.

This is the first post I've seen from S_S that makes me lean town on him ever so slightly. I don't understand the other people town reading him at this point and especially not the vote on him.

[Oh]

What are your reads, Dann?

I... literally just posted them?

My bad, I missed it.

-E

[Oh]

VOTE: Shoshin

[Oh]

-E

[Oh]

RC, if you're townreading Shoshin, why are you opposing her getting the baton?

[Oh]

RC, if you're townreading Shoshin, why are you opposing her getting the baton?

._.

joke post pls don't kill me
-E

[Oh]

I would think that my postcount would be more relevant than either.

But no matter which metric you use, this is not out of the ordinary.

For a regular game, sure.

[Oh]

Oh

VOTE: Celestial Coordinates

-E

[Oh]

I don't think Ceph/Shoshin are lynch pool material though. Pretty sure there are possibly better candidates unless RC wants to forcibly strong arm a Shoshin lynch. And I'm sort of not seeing the Shoshin scum right now.

I mean, if you want to just go after a bunch of lynchbait who will flip town you can. There's nothing really scummy about Pmysterious and Gameplay isn't actually all that bad.
But they'll flip town and we'll be back here tomorrow.

Can you give your general reads and feels of the whole/majority of the playerbase? I don't know if you gave reads since you were arguing with Ank for like 5-10 pages.

Not Ank.

-E

[Oh]

I think you've just forgotten how to deal with players who dont worship you

I'm sorry, who are you accusing of worshiping him?

I can happily assure you I dont get along with egos under any circumstances

One of the sure signs of an ego is not being able to get along with one.

Mmm tunnel me daddy it feels so good

... What tunnel.

He made a couple posts about why he thinks you're scum. How is he tunneling you?

Why are you misrepping this?

[Oh]

-E

Ceph you can't just say words like "tunnel" to try and dismiss arguments against you just because you don't like being the target of a push.

[Oh]

-E

Ceph you can't just say words like "tunnel" to try and dismiss arguments against you just because you don't like being the target of a push.

Yeah this seems like the type of thing that's gonna just get dropped and I'm sure he wont be shoving it down everyone's throats for the next 40 pages

Oh you're right. My bad, please do tell me more about RC's meta in recent games - especially link me to recent games where he's shoved it down people's throats for 40 pages.

I do like your meta analysis of RC, though. I'm glad that you're good at meta'ing him enough to not only read him accurately, but also tell me what he's GOING to do.

I do admit I was a bit confused by you earlier, I thought you were saying no MS player really knows how to meta other players as well as they think they do, but now I realize you were talking about every player except yourself.

[Oh]

I'm sorry, who are you accusing of worshiping him?

A considerable percentage of the site

Nice! I do prefer it when you make vague statements you can't back up and then back it up with more vague statements that have no reference on the game at all!

[Oh]

Did I do something to you? Buzz off.

Are you surprised that snark returns snark? Quit saying stupid crap, making half-witted jabs, and play the game. You're not above the standard you hold everyone else to. Don't just say things without expecting to back it up.

[Oh]

In case anyone thinks Ank is the kind of person to make the last post, it was Enter.

So is this one.

[Oh]

Yeah still have no idea why you're so upset

Presumably, Enter is upset because you responded to an in-game case with a bunch of shade directed towards my personality, reputation, playstyle, etc instead of responding to it.

Partially this.
Also throwing baseless accusations around.
Also misusing terminology to fit your agenda.

If you don't understand the words you're saying don't say them. The way it looks to me is that you respond to teh game by seeing how other people react when they're angry and then use the same words to justify your own frustration regardless of their applicability. You look like you don't know what you're talking about and you're throwing a words around because someone brought up a (debatably) legitimate argument against you.

[Oh]

Oh would you baton kill Wisdom?

Under what circumstance?

-E

Right now if you could decide which two players would be flipped would one of them be Wisdom? Other one is gameplay if I'm not wrong.

And if a majority of people want to have Wisdom flipped, would you argue against that?

I wouldn't argue for it or against it. I don't feel certain enough with my reads to feel comfortable with BPing Shoshin and killing gameplay right now, TBH.

This line of questioning is another thing I don't like from Yukz.

-E.

Also in case I forget to sign for a bit, most of these posts are probably me. I don't think Ank plans to engage the game until things have calmed down a little and there's a little more strength to reads.

ayyyyyyyyy enter gets me

[Oh]

ok I've caught up and my only response is that I'm going to proceed to let enter have the reins until the circlejerking is over

good luck

[Oh]

Oh

That's our name

Enter is town

Just... out of curiosity and a little bit of fear, what makes you think that?

[Oh]

i mean, he can just go to bed and effort tomorrow or whatever

this just isn't what i expected from cephrir with what i knew of him if he's town

FTR

This isn't tunnel.

[Oh]

I'm going to lol so hard if the game turns to a gigantic pile of shit and then we get n1ed

That would make my year I think

[Oh]

UNVOTE:

-E

Not unvoting because I don't trust CeCo but I've been talking with my partner about... things and I'm rearranging the way I approach the game due to certain... realizations.

[Oh]

i mean, he can just go to bed and effort tomorrow or whatever

this just isn't what i expected from cephrir with what i knew of him if he's town

FTR

This isn't tunnel.

-E

I'm going to lol so hard if the game turns to a gigantic pile of shit and then we get n1ed

That would make my year I think

-Ank

[Oh]

I think wisdom is town???

[Oh]

Also Dann is still scummy

Ty see you all next time

[Oh]

Yeah well I think the gamestate is being warped so I don't really trust any of those reads anyways

[Oh]

Oh

That's our name

Enter is town

Just... out of curiosity and a little bit of fear, what makes you think that?

Your righteous anger (sass) towards Cephrir reads genuine. I liked how you engaged Cephrir and called him out on his hypocrisy. Despite the sass it felt like you were legitimately trying to get Cephrir to engage in a more pro-town way regardless of his alignment.

Why would you be afraid of me town reading you?

I'm not, just curious about my tells and I like hearing about myself... forgive a little bit of ego?

[Oh]

Oh. I see what you mean.
The fear isn't that you're town reading me, it's that I do something bad and that's why you're townreading me.

[Oh]

tunnel is a word that should not be used for the way rc is approaching shoshin.

stop doing that

[Oh]

-E

This isn't difficult. The way people use it now is effectively misrepresenting the person you speak about.

[Oh]

lolwat

how is it called when you feel a person is scum and all you do in the game is push them until theyre dead

im one of the most guilty of this in ms, id know

......

That's why I expected more from you.

He made ~3 posts about why he was scum reading her before he was accused of tunneling the first game

The game has not even been live for 24 hours and he's pushed her for MAYBE 4 of them.

How on earth is this "all he does in the game?" or even how does it look like he's pushing them until they're dead? He even made a post reconsidering his read?

You can't call him pushing Shoshin for a couple hours a tunnel.

and usually with arguments only you understand because theyre related to feelings or experience and not logical things

That's often a cause of tunneling but that doesn't necessarily constitute it

You're going after him for "tunneling" because he brought up his scum read and said maybe we should lynch it.

[Oh]

It takes a real spin doctor to turn the 3 hour push into an "all game until they're dead" push.

Quit exaggerating things out of proportion because you disagree with them.

[Oh]

and even further, you then attempt to sort everyone else while having your tunnelee as flipped scum in your mind

namely what rc is doing

That's not tunneling, that's hunting for associatives, and if you think that's what RC is doing, call it that instead.

Also bringing up that you think someone is scummy and then also presenting a possible solve with that argument is not scummy. That's what RC did. He brought up his read, defended it, and presented a possible solve. The game hasn't even gone on >24 hours. Are you just going to say that whenever anyone brings up who they think is scum and starts pushing them that they're also tunneling? Are we supposed to sit around sipping tea and make off-handed comments about how we think one or the other player MIGHT POSSIBLY be scum until we just happen to get enough agreement to get a lynch because directly calling a player out as scum is considered tunneling? Because that's significantly easier for scum to manipulate.

[Oh]

All of this is -E

[Oh]

Iirc, back when I started we didn't consider a player to have tunnel vision until they'd pushed a player for several days and refused any alternatives to that push (often refusing to acknowledge other players whatsoever with the exception of begging their assistance with the lynch).

-E

[Oh]

TBH, I could make a better argument that you're tunneling RC than he's tunneling Shoshin. You started out the day making negative comments about him (especially as far as not saving him), a significant number of your posts are about him (in a negative fashion), you exaggerate his posting by accusing him of tunneling, and you doubled down when presented with the alternative that he wasn't, in fact, tunneling. Frankly, you seem almost obsessed with him.

[Oh]

-E

[Oh]

That's not tunneling, that's hunting for associatives, and if you think that's what RC is doing, call it that instead.

this is a pedantic argument, please disengage.

Noted.

Where are you at so far?

[Oh]

did I miss anything important

-Edmund Duke, Alpha Squadron

[Oh]

you're mean

[Oh]

In the games I've played with RC and Shoshin simultaneously, he's been wrong on her in both of them. Granted, one of those times he was scum, but just bringing this up in case anyone cares.

[Oh]

Also I think the townreads on RC due to Nancy this early off of the minimal relevant posting Nancy has done (and knowing that she has won games as scum before) are a bit... hasty.

[Oh]

Link?

BoP and FotM

[Oh]

viewtopic.php?f=84&t=79095
viewtopic.php?f=3&t=79045

[Oh]

My problem isn't that you're townreading RC or that you're sheeping his reads, it's that you're presenting doing so as objectively the best course of action <24 hours into a game with reads that probably should not be strong enough (unless you're not town, I guess) for you to be presenting anyone's non mod confirmed alignment as a factual and un-counterable basis for argument, nor should RC's history with reads be the sole reason you sheep him ever.

[Oh]

Everything is still -E, BTW

[Oh]

Also I would like to point out that RC did have a similar initial spat with Shoshin in BoP (where he was town) and he scum read her correctly there, but a relatively short while afterwards he dropped the scum read of her and moved to a more neutral position.

[Oh]

RC
is a human being who plays mafia and is better at reading people on average than most other people who play mafia.

He's not so perfect/consistent that you can base an objective logical argument around him, nor should he always be the night 1 kill.
He's also not so good that it's worth wasting your time directly opposing/disagreeing with him in one way or another so that you feel better about yourself because "RC has flaws too." or because you managed to find the one time RC was wrong and you were right therefore you're a better player than RC.

Can we all just relax? I'm pretty sure a majority of this thread hates it when people worship RC, I've seen far too many comments about it to really believe otherwise. Please just treat him like another player and let's move on with the game.

[Oh]

gif without even looking im positive rc hasnt read anyone 100% correctly

Well he states so, so you'll have to prove that it's false or my thing still stands.
So far Enter's links did not prove the contradictory.

You must not have read very far.

[Oh]

Can we all just relax? I'm pretty sure a majority of this thread hates it when people worship RC, I've seen far too many comments about it to really believe otherwise. Please just treat him like another player and let's move on with the game.

You know that ain't happening.
That's why I'm trying to see if anyone can break my logical proof.
They can say all they want in terms of reads and all that.
But they can't invalidate correct logical proof.
And so far, it stands.

If only you provided a correct logical proof that was based on viable assumptions.

[Oh]

Wisdom is discrediting me because he wants to shit on me and is playing to an agenda.

I didn't say that literally at no point in any game did I ever incorrectly scumread or townread her. I said I've had the same pattern wrt being damn sure that she was scum early and in 1 case I decided to try to hunt her partner, then succeeded but was unable to lynch her partner because the other two town scumread each other and in the other case I had a bunch of idiots attacking my ability to read her and calling me anti-town to the point that I stopped wanting to play.

Neither of these describe BoP?

[Oh]

Nevermind.
For some reason I remember you town reading Shoshin in BoP, but you scum read her through all of it. My bad.

[Oh]

did I miss anything important

-Edmund Duke, Alpha Squadron

[Oh]

Neat

VOTE: Gay Dance

These are my flirting eyes

-Edmund Duke, Alpha Squadron

[Oh]

I'm really confused what you're trying to say there

-Edmund Duke, Alpha Squadron

[Oh]

I think it's obvious that anything I do isn't going to matter until people start flipping so I honestly don't really care either way atm

-Edmund Duke, Alpha Squadron

[Oh]

I haven't ran through anything in analysis mode so anything I have is surface thoughts

If I'm going to be left alive for a couple days because there's better nks and my partner is town enough to avoid lynches, then it's probably better for me to bide my time entirely to avoid making the thread even more clogged

We clash enough that it's just better for me to take that approach unless I see a lose condition

-Edmund Duke, Alpha Squadron

[Oh]

Better you than me boyo

I like not being dead

-Edmund Duke, Alpha Squadron

[Oh]

Whos me and who's pienyan in that game

I assume RC and Shoshin

-Edmund Duke, Alpha Squadron

[Oh]

itt half the playerlist thinks they're being N1ed this game

-Edmund Duke, Alpha Squadron

[Oh]

If anything needs hesitant because I'm ignoring her

-Edmund Duke, Alpha Squadron

[Oh]

He's hesitant*

[Oh]

Hi dann are you town yet

-Edmund Duke, Alpha Squadron

[Oh]

Kirari replaced out of gay dance because Robster and I partnered with each other

-Edmund Duke, Alpha Squadron

[Oh]

Gay Dance for president let's go

-Edmund Duke, Alpha Squadron

[Oh]

If anyone needs a distraction... talk to me later and get me caught up ty

-Edmund Duke, Alpha Squadron

[Oh]

This entire argument is the most ridiculous thing I've seen in a long time holy shit

-Edmund Duke, Alpha Squadron

[Oh]

Shoshin you realize that you really have no reason to push your role PM thing.......... at all ever, right

Literally all you achieve by mentioning it is alienating people which just makes it harder for people to take you seriously elsewhere since it just makes you seem like you only put yourself in your own shoes

Just a drive by... idk light warning I guess

-Edmund Duke, Alpha Squadron

[Oh]

Ceph what are you feeling atm?

-Edmund Duke, Alpha Squadron

[Oh]

I think town is already on a lose trajectory

And it's not because of Shoshin or RC being scum

-Edmund Duke, Alpha Squadron

[Oh]

What's wrong with it?

It feels like because Nancy managed to fool people for most of HW, people like me, should take longer to TR the slot, that's just paranoia, nothing more, and I decided that I'd stop falling to paranoia every single time a strong scum player is in the playerlist, It's not fun when people decide to not TR you out of paranoia, i've experienced it before, and I hate it.

What.


I was trying to tell GDGW that he couldn't base a solid logical argument off of assumptions like the one above. I don't particularly CARE if you're townreading RC right now as far as this post is concerned, I want people to not take RC is town as a fact and then try to base a logical argument off of it based on a day 1 town read on Nancy who hasn't done anything particularly towny at all.

CONTEXT.
MATTERS.

[Oh]

Speaking of that, Wisdom going now out of his way to prove this wrong is kinda weird.

um
gif kept asking for it

Oh yeah, i forgot he asked specifically for at least a single instance of T-T where he scumread her.
However, you keep pushing it as a "he read her wrong once so he's wrong here too." after that (i think?)

I think you missed the part of the game where GDGW tried to take day 1 reads and present them as objectively unassailable assumptions to build a logical argument off of. You should go read those pages again because you're taking a lot of stuff out of context.

[Oh]

gameplay s_s yukzuk

who opposes killing those three

I do.

S_S is town.

Why?

Sorry I was gonna respond to that Sakura but I got really distracted

Paranoia can be justified; particularly, I think if Enter himself has misread Nancy in the past he'd be right to be hesitant to townread her here.

Every game I've played with Nancy I have read her correctly for the entirety of the game.

I was scum in every game I've played with Nancy, though.

Yes, correct. The fact that I'm playing this game is a town-tell. It might not appear that way to you, because you don't know me, but that doesn't change the reality of the fact that it's very unlikely I would have confirmed my role if I was scum. I've said this before in other games where I was town, for context, so this isn't something I'm making up. This is my last game for the next two years, and I definitely wouldn't be spending it playing scum. That's just a fact, yes it might seem unethical, but I wasn't even sure I wanted to play more mafia because I was scared of getting a mafia PM. I only signed up for this game because NSG invited me and it seemed like a fun setup to play.

Do you realize that trust tells are bannable offenses and prone to modkill?

I've never used a trust tell, and like I said, this is my last game on the site for over two years. Just for context, I'm leaving in two months -- I'll be serving in the Peace Corps in a small village in Africa and I don't expect to have internet. This IS my last game on here, and if I get banned, then so be it, but I can assure you I wasn't going to play scum for my last game. I'd rather be banned than waste my time doing something I hate.

TBH every time you make an argument like this it makes me want you out of the game just that much more. This kind of argument is not one someone makes who is semmi-competent at mafia and can defend themselves via in-game play, but instead must rely on external factors to plead with people to excuse their screw-ups.

Yeah sorry RC, I changed my mind i dont think Shoshin is scum here.

Why?

GIF head is gonna step out for few days.
Forward all questions to Bitty tyvm

That's unfortunate.

GIF is the one who has been in this specific spot before twice -- RC trying to lynch town me. I'd like to think GIF might have learned from these experiences & might have some insight to contribute. Maybe not.

So have I. So has Ank (somewhat). I think Dannflor was there too.

I disagree with anyone who think angleshooty reasons are bad. They're a fine way to read other players, in my experience. And NSG sometimes uses them in her play, as far as I can tell, so why shouldn't I be able to use them in her game? If you don't like the reasons, then ignore them. But don't tell me not to offer them when I think they're a useful piece of information.

Shoshin if NSG jumped off a bridge would you do it to?

Angleshooting about whether someone is likely to break site rules is not. We should always assume people are playing the game in good faith and that means obeying site rules.

I don't think it's against site rules to not confirm a scum PM & then not play any mafia games for over two years? Like, I dunno. Something about that seems acceptable to me.

Are you actually arguing that it seems acceptable to dodge a game you signed up for because you don't want to play that role, trying to use that as an external advantage because your in game play apparently isn't even good enough for yourself? The "not play mafia games for over two years" is irrelevant unless you're referring to a ban you expect to get. Why would you not having internet access for two years excuse you from having to fall under the same standard as everyone else?

I felt nothing town from RC, Yuk. His early discussion about mechanics is how he starts games as scum when mechanics are relevant -- it's not Ai. His disagreement with me about Wisdom was bad, especially since it wasn't explored at all; he didn't make any attempts to interact with me or understand where I'm coming from, which is very unusual for town him. I don't see anything towny about his play. Do you?

yeah im lil sus on him but idk if anyone else agrees w me

hey can u answer me this

u think that town can get a scum rc lynched? or do you need to be alive for that to happen

...
I'm not sure there's anything towny about this question.

aight chill ima dip now and think about things

I also find it easier to lurk when people call me out for being scum.

{Gay Dance}
{CC, Wisdom, SS, Sakura}
{Shoshin, Nacho, gameplay(?, can't remember anything he's posted)}
{Oversoul, Goodies, Dannflor}
{PMysterious, YukzYuk}

Oh

[Oh]

Is this you faking with your reads or you speaking honestly because I want to use Ceph as a proxy flip before considering flipping shoshin

The second proxy flip Yukz has proposed today.

-E

[Oh]

Shoshin scum definitely does not post the ultimatum that she did. Plus she is very much playing to her town meta of not lurking. NSG is a player with the same type of meta. Transparently scum by activity alone.

Shoshin was very active in BoP

[Oh]

What's wrong with it?

It feels like because Nancy managed to fool people for most of HW, people like me, should take longer to TR the slot, that's just paranoia, nothing more, and I decided that I'd stop falling to paranoia every single time a strong scum player is in the playerlist, It's not fun when people decide to not TR you out of paranoia, i've experienced it before, and I hate it.

What.


I was trying to tell GDGW that he couldn't base a solid logical argument off of assumptions like the one above. I don't particularly CARE if you're townreading RC right now as far as this post is concerned, I want people to not take RC is town as a fact and then try to base a logical argument off of it based on a day 1 town read on Nancy who hasn't done anything particularly towny at all.

CONTEXT.
MATTERS.

Speaking of that, Wisdom going now out of his way to prove this wrong is kinda weird.

um
gif kept asking for it

Oh yeah, i forgot he asked specifically for at least a single instance of T-T where he scumread her.
However, you keep pushing it as a "he read her wrong once so he's wrong here too." after that (i think?)

I think you missed the part of the game where GDGW tried to take day 1 reads and present them as objectively unassailable assumptions to build a logical argument off of. You should go read those pages again because you're taking a lot of stuff out of context.

Because you seemed to miss these earlier

[Oh]

So if we assume
1. RC is town (Nancy makes reading the slot easier I heard) = p
2. If RC is town and RC says shoshin is scum, then Shoshin is scum. (Apparently he was never wrong on Shoshin before!) = p*q -> r
3. RC says Shoshin is scum (Believe me this is a true statement) = q

Then we can prove that Shoshin is scum (r)!

1. p Given
2. p*q -> r Given
3. q Given
4. p * q Conjunction
5. r 2, 4, Modus Ponens

Simple logic really

[Oh]

Oh that?, I dont get what's the issue either, I TR CC, and... that's it? I dont think I said shoshin had to be scum because of it, im not gonna be held by paranoia on RC or Nancy, if you want to be held up by paranoia that's on you.

I don't know how to explain in more clear terms than I already have. I don't understand how you still manage to misinterpret my post.

Whatever. I give up.

[Oh]

FTR I'm town reading CC and I was town reading CC at the time of that post.

[Oh]

The fact that you want me dead so you don't have to read me isn't a concern for every player in the game in the same way it is for you.

...

I don't want you dead.
I'm town reading you. I've been town reading you for a while now.

I support you getting the baton first.

Can I just point out the irony of me calling out another player for taking my post out of context resulting in yet one more player taking my post out of context?

[Oh]

Oh that?, I dont get what's the issue either, I TR CC, and... that's it? I dont think I said shoshin had to be scum because of it, im not gonna be held by paranoia on RC or Nancy, if you want to be held up by paranoia that's on you.

I don't know how to explain in more clear terms than I already have. I don't understand how you still manage to misinterpret my post.

Whatever. I give up.

Maybe you're misunderstanding mine? idk.

Alright. I think you think that I'm not townreading CC and that you think I'm saying other players should be hesitant to townread them, is that correct?

[Oh]

Why is my lollogic being discussed still?

I'm pretty sure we're at 5 now.

[Oh]

Oh that?, I dont get what's the issue either, I TR CC, and... that's it? I dont think I said shoshin had to be scum because of it, im not gonna be held by paranoia on RC or Nancy, if you want to be held up by paranoia that's on you.

I don't know how to explain in more clear terms than I already have. I don't understand how you still manage to misinterpret my post.

Whatever. I give up.

Maybe you're misunderstanding mine? idk.

Alright. I think you think that I'm not townreading CC and that you think I'm saying other players should be hesitant to townread them, is that correct?

That's correct yes.

Ok, I'm not misunderstanding yours.

I'm also townreading CC and not saying that other players should be hesitant to townread them.

[Oh]

I'd rather save Dannflor than PM

-E

[Oh]

Are you actually arguing that it seems acceptable to dodge a game you signed up for because you don't want to play that role, trying to use that as an external advantage because your in game play apparently isn't even good enough for yourself? The "not play mafia games for over two years" is irrelevant unless you're referring to a ban you expect to get. Why would you not having internet access for two years excuse you from having to fall under the same standard as everyone else?

I don't want to spend more time on this so I'm dropping this discussion with you after this response. I don't care about upholding some standard that you believe we all have to adhere to. The only thing I care about is the integrity of the game, and me dodging a single game once before taking off for two years doesn't do any harm to the game or to anyone in the game as long as nobody knows what I'm doing. This applies in my case because I have dodged town games before when they have started weeks after signups, so me doing so in this game with that excuse would not have raised any suspicion. I'm only talking about it freely because it's actually my last game & there's no reason to hide this. You don't have to believe it, this piece of information isn't meant for everyone.

Tactically replacing out is not a standard you care about - understand all. You have my official permission to spend as many years off this site as you'd like. Preferentially a longer period of time vise a shorter one.

Enter

[Oh]

sus
gameplay
yukz


less sus still kinda sus
wisdom
gdgw
s_s
ceph

who
goodies
pm

less town still kinda town
oversoul
dann
hana

town
cc
nacho

-E

[Oh]

Why aren’t people considering SS for one of the baton kills?

He's likely town.

I have yet to see someone give a good reason why he isn't.

give me a good reason why he is

Dann is just unremarkable
Probably the fewest hints of towniness in his posts out of everyone because they're all boring

This hard to explain to anyone who doesn't experience his play from my perspective, but I get the sense he's genuinely trying to understand my play instead of playing with an agenda. The stuff he's concerned about, at the moments he shows those concerns, feels very towny to me. I can give some examples if you'd like.

How much experience do you have with dann?

[Oh]

The expressed scum reads on me are largely for wooden posting if I understand correctly. Ankamius can tell you that's not a scum tell for me.

I'm hurt

[Oh]

Shoshin what experience do you have with Dann?

[Oh]

give me a good reason why he is

I've been over this already but apparently people aren't reading my posts because they are boring.

Have you played with S_S before? I don't like using meta as an end all be all but his play is strongly reminiscent of the game I've played with him before, all as town. His questioning early game had a consistent line of thought that I could follow, he didn't seem to be questioning for the sake of questioning. His more recent support of RC's read accuracy and following such a confident read is logical and I don't really expect that coming from a scum agenda.

He's not lock town but his play so far has been

not scummy

enough that I don't think a player like S_S can sustain for so long (no offense S_S).

The scum reads on him seem to be for fluff posting. That's generally a bad basis for a scum read to begin with and it's worse on his slot.

I'm bringing this up because I

have

played with S_S before. I read/played through a scum game of his recently and it wasn't remarkably different from this game. The game was so recent I still have notes from it. S_S being not scummy is not a good reason to call him town. His support of RC's read accuracy is especially similar to that game where he searched for the way other players were reading/playing the game and then excused his own play by trying to make others take responsibility for his actions. How do you think S_S is fluff posting?

[Oh]

I'm bringing this up because I have played with S_S before. I read/played through a scum game of his recently and it wasn't remarkably different from this game. The game was so recent I still have notes from it. S_S being not scummy is not a good reason to call him town. His support of RC's read accuracy is especially similar to that game where he searched for the way other players were reading/playing the game and then excused his own play by trying to make others take responsibility for his actions. How do you think S_S is fluff posting?

Link to this game?

I don't personally find S_S's questions to be fluff, but I think other slots have. Gameplay in particular was one of the first players to state that S_S's questioning felt like it was "trying too hard" or something. That's another tentative reason I'm town reading S_S because I heavily scum read Gameplay—I agree with Nacho's entire push and case on him and I think his last (fake?) hammer and "oh well if I die attitude" is scum still just trying to stay afloat looking like a lost townie. That's a pre-flip associative though so not really a big reason why I have a town read on S_S.

I'll have to go back and look at gameplay/S_S interaction you're talking about, do you have link/post number?

Do you think S_S' play pushes a town objective? Do you think a majority of his questions are helpful to the game/necessary or reasonable questions?

as for the game:
viewtopic.php?f=83&t=80586

I'd just like to point out that my read on SS this game was accurate.

Spoiler: my notes from that game if it helps

Group chat 1
SS -
17 uncomfortable and over the top
23 uncomfortable
28 still nervous
FA-
53/54 trying to take advantage of situation?
Pine
63/64/66 - fake townslip :/
74-RR agrees
78 - lynch menalque or just untrusting?
82 - points towards lynching ss today
92 is true - ss/elsa?
98 is wrong - because mafia pt in mafsilver is purple - as long as it’s actually a PT
~115 pp waiting before adding looks good, elsa wants to be ded, ruby, me, and sky are on the same page. Too bad ss killed ruby
130 - where has pb been
Xyzzy on same page as me
Oh wait - both of them are ded. :/
150/152 - awkward… i like ss/pine for scum - fits narrative
155 menalque is pushy
159 - ruby come play w/ me sometime
161 - wk pine?
167 - not seeing anything i like from menalque and i dislike that
Or elsa. Haven’t seen anything i like from elsa yet either
+current lynchpool -elsa, ss, pine, menalque
198 menalque isn’t helpful
218/219 - menalque and i wouldn’t get along
223 - pine is th eonly person pointing out menalque is weird
231 seems honest enough menalque good
236 pine describes menalque’s scum game as being different and town game as being similar to the game we’re in and then calls him scum - minus town points for pine
239 seems contrived
244 pine builds cases out of thin air on thin air with less basis for existing than the flying spaghetti monster
246 exactly, pine should know better than that
253/254 are townposts from elsa
Lynchpool menalque, pine, ss
264 is cool, 265 & 266 aren’t
270 is bad
Every time ss talks i want him lynched
311 is manipulative bad elsa
314 i’m reminded that every time ss talks i think he’s scum more
317 is bad bad elsa
Lynchpool again menalque pine ss elsa
318 is good post from pp
325 is bad and overreactive and forced
331 contrived
Elsa flip flops on where she wants to get picked and I don’t like it
350 bad as well as everythign SS posts. I think it’s cuz of the way SS is approacing the game


@post 400
Scum
Elsa/Pine
SS
Menalque


PP
Skygazer
Ruby
Town
-----
Read a couple pages into the second pt to see what was going on in there while game was happening and i don’t like pine for scum anymore
Let’s do :
Scum
Elsa
SS
Menalque


Pine
PP
Skygazer
Ruby
Town
435 is very very very bad from elsa - just established that ss is scum and she wants to make him last pick
Between 435 and 495 - menalque and pine arguing about dumb stuff that doesn’t matter and it leads to nothing, surprisingly. :/ minus points for both of them
493 - something smart and elsa keep trying to add the other last
504-508 seems genuine between ss/elsa
516 was good - i liked it a lot
545 makes me sus of menalque pine
589 that’s why it’s hard to play scum
618 is bad


End of day 1
Elsa looks better
Pine looks meh
Menalque looks bad
Ss doesn’t look good
Everyone else is town

========
Group chat 2

Second read through of first couple pages doesn’t leave pine looking as towny as I remembered
Also pb death is indicative of pine scum i think
94 is good from ss
167 is why PB died N1
196 confirms it
237 is awkward, but so is pine flipp on PP
241 isn’t scum points necessarily, but bad reasoning for putting someone in your lynch pool unless you’ve got strong reads on everyone else
266 is awkward
Reread 306
311
Ugh
324
359 is pretty much just OMGUS with almost no other “explaining” whatsoever, with the exception of post 42, which contains a reference to a newbie game I’ll read later. Also he quotes almost every post twice to make it look longer.
364 contains 3 cases - the one for Elsa, the one for Ruby, and the one for S_S. The “reasoning” for penguin and the reasoning for sky look remarkably similar, but one is orange and the other is green. There isn’t really a case for menalque other than “he’s feels different than the newbie game and he’s pushing me and I don’t like it.” the reads list feels bloated and fake and two of the confirmed town (by being dead) players are conveniently located by some of his iffier reads where players typically put their “nullish” reads, seemingly to give the appearance of having more depth to his reads list. I would have expected a town player to have explicitly separated those players and themselves from the group to maintain the clarity of the information rather than the illusion of it.
367 is fence-sitty
376 - how is scum setting up menalque also why make the comment about the other thread
390 - :/
488 makes ss town?
~500 people are pushing S_S to kill gobble instead of Pine - which is why I think S_S was hesitating yesterday, he was trying to get someone else to take full responsibility for Gobble kill
I don’t like Elsa trying to cash in on tracker cred it’s like she got lucky and wants to get everything she can out of it
There’s more “if” than I like in 554
563 - no rage from pine for being contested as the tracker, really weird pushes that change, almost no thread presence
569 displays disappointment that pine wasn’t added
574 why is menalque so obsessed with himself getting lynched?
599 - results are required from Pine
Pine and Elsa posts are remarkably sparse
At this point there are two players with relative continuous inconsistencies - elsa and S_S but i don’t wanna call them scum w/ anyone but Pine
618 elsa townpoints?
635 is contradictory, like a lot of S_S’s other stuff



========
Group chat 3
23 penguin backtracks the “save pine” push - seems like something only newbie nervous scum would do, though
Whole chat, SS seems to be trying to excuse his choice either way. Would push SS/PP just due to both reactions seeming more… raw, PP more experienced, comfortable player.



=========
Push Pine as lynch for today, worry about PP/SS for tomorrow

We should only add when we’re certain they’re town, because 1 scum will be invincible tonight
There's an inconvenient correlation between the people I trusted on my read-through of the thread and the people that are dead right now.
I don’t think Pine kills PP as scum
I think that makes SS look less scummy
Jay/Menal?
viewtopic.php?p=11213214#p11213214 is why PB died N1

Elsa’s response to RR gambit on D1 looks faked - I’d expect a lot more relaxed response from her as town, maybe even to completely ignore it, especially since there are forum moderators playing in the game, but instead as soon as PP points it out, she plays it up because she doesn’t know how to react and he wants to push for towncred. As town, Elsa ignores it, as scum, she tries for town points.
In addition, the awkward commentary around the beginning of day 2 reveals an uncertainty as to how town will respond to the kill while simultaneously confirming her awareness of what had been said in the thread the day before - see 167 of that day.
Elsa particularly likes to make players like her and push for her as town and then kills them - ask dunnstral about “nobody reviewed this game” by xyzzy

I don’t think Menalque is cleared on a Pine red flip
Pine thinking Menalque is scum doesn’t make sense with a JK in the game because scum can’t use rolecop and kill simultaneously

[Oh]

The part at the end wasn't entirely up to date, I made it at the beginning and updated it as I went on and forgot to update at certain parts. At the end of the game when Elsa threw, I was at Pine/SS and Pine/Elsa, leaning towards the former.

[Oh]

OH can you guys make a joint readslist for me

Ank mostly follows my reads, I think, with GDGW as more town for her than anything.
She thinks there's at least one town between you and Shoshin but the way you were playing when she checked in earlier makes her think both of you are going to lose us the game. I'd prefer if Shoshin was just replaced for that awful ploy earlier, but I'm not going to push it.

Ank's (and mine, partially) main objective is to get the game back on track and work from there. She's a bit behind as far as reads other than what I've updated you on (and some other stuff that's still in development) but we'll catch up later after we have a more amiable game state.

Do you think S_S' play pushes a town objective? Do you think a majority of his questions are helpful to the game/necessary or reasonable questions?

I think he is forming micro-reads based off of them, as he does as town. I think they are helping him sort and are generally reasonable questions. There's been not much he's asked where I'm like... uh what's the point of that, that's stupid?

I can't promise I'll read the game you linked but I'll try to get around to it tonight if I have the time, since it seems to be heavily informing your read.

Hold for gameplay interaction post numbers.

His play also isn't much different from marathon weekend a couple months ago (iirc).

Asking questions is something anyone can easily do. It's probably the most easy game related content to produce as scum, because none of it comes from you. It's (like you said about the micro-reads) about the product. Have you seen anything from him in the form of micro-reads that makes you think he's town? I haven't seen much product in general, TBH.

[Oh]

Every time ss talks i want him lynched

Lmao.

Do you feel this here?

Not really; I got a hint of it in the first couple posts you had this game, and that's part of why I'm not pushing your lynch right now, but it's a large and I'm gonna be honest I'm paying a lot less attention to your posts right now than I was in Group Chat.

It's that I'm posting naturally, and I'm not forcing myself to take stances or have opinions.

This actually explains my read on S_S pretty well.

Then gameplay said this:

Ye ok good
Honestly from what we've had so far I have more negative then positive reads atm
It might be that the other large theme magical girls was pretty jokish for the first 10-15 pages or so but SS, wisdom and SH posts just seem a little out of place

Esp SS and his questions which just seem like overdoing it a bit

Alright. I see that. It's still a pretty weak argument until gameplay flips scum, but I can understand where you're coming from on that aspect a bit better now.

Sakura Hana, why are you so eager to put me in the first lynchings when you

just

just quick lynched me as town. Especially with your town read of Shoshin town reading me.

I haven't seen anything from you that looks like pushing a scumread.

Also there's a lack of kitties

Dann has been a bit more aggressive this game than usual, actually.

[Oh]

What are your scum reads right now?

Aside from gameplay:

Hmmm
Im fine with Dannflor dying.
Im also fine with Yuki dying.
Im also fine with PM dying.

After all this i realize that my reads and Wisdom's arent very different.

I think everyone on that list is town.

She thinks there's at least one town between you and Shoshin but the way you were playing when she checked in earlier makes her think both of you are going to lose us the game. I'd prefer if Shoshin was just replaced for that awful ploy earlier, but I'm not going to push it.

Crazy assertion: isn't this the exact same thing that Giggles and Schadd said about me in the game where I was pushing on scum!her?

Not sure, I didn't play in that game with her.

since when did ank not really play D1?
is this a recent development, or...?

@Oh

Last few games I've played with her she's been very distant/noncommittal for the first part of day 1.

I'd rather kill Oh than either of Dann or Yuk, just to put that out there.

Big surprise: The player who uses external factors as a crutch for mafia play also wants people lynched in game for external factors.

FTR I'd rather you were force replaced and banned.

[Oh]

Oh's reaction to me feels way over-the-top & fake.

Funny you say that, I was actually restraining myself a bit.

[Oh]

I guess what I'm saying, RC, is that it's usually scum who get upset when a strong townie gets confirmed town. And that's what I'm feeling about Oh.

And I was right that the emotion was fake, he's "restraining" himself. Town woudln't be this upset, scum would be even more upset than he's letting on.

1. You're not confirmed town and even if you were, I don't want to play or win a game of mafia because I have an advantage because some player was so incapable of playing the game properly that she had to break the spirit of site rules to further prevent her lynch. I would much rather play a fair game and lose than have an unfair advantage and win.
2. You broke the rules and then said you don't care about the rules because for some reason you think they don't apply to you.
3. I don't think you recognize what "restraining" means. Let me explain it for you: I was only giving you a little bit of the whole lot more that I've got.

[Oh]

Just look at his crusade against self-voting earlier in the year for evidence.

I guess? I remember he was upset about my self-vote but not to the point of force replacing & banning. It's a different level.

You self-voting doesn't break the rules, it's just bad play (generally speaking). And I enjoy being able to argue my stance.
There's no argument to be made here. You effectively cheated. I don't need to prove you wrong or try and get my point through so that other people won't do the same thing in the future, because cheating is enforceable by site moderators and objectively bad.

Earlier this year was me fighting with you over something subjective, now I'm telling you to not be here anymore because you've made an objective mistake.

[Oh]

There's no argument to be made here. You effectively cheated. I don't need to prove you wrong or try and get my point through so that other people won't do the same thing in the future, because cheating is enforceable by site moderators and objectively bad.

This is only true if you believe that she wouldn't bring this logic up as scum. I'm not so sure that's true, so I don't see it as cheating. /shrug

Fair enough, I wouldn't put it past her to bring up as scum, I guess. :/ I'm not really reading the slot anymore, which is why she wasn't in my reads list.

[Oh]

Just look at his crusade against self-voting earlier in the year for evidence.

I guess? I remember he was upset about my self-vote but not to the point of force replacing & banning. It's a different level.

Also want to point out that I told you that I would quickhammer you at a moments notice regardless of alignment that game because of your play there.

[Oh]

Nice I'm 20 pages behind

On a scale from 1 to always, how pointless is it for me to read those 20 pages

-Edmund Duke, Alpha Squadron

[Oh]

Oh I'm seeing it's still a waste of time for me to do anything

Ok cya

-Edmund Duke, Alpha Squadron

[Oh]

The crux of the Oh read is that there are a number of small things that I like and nothing incredibly problematic. So, maybe town?
This doesn't have much bearing to Oh's alignment, but it's silly. Towns get to endgame and don't have enough to fish out the last scum because they rush day phases without enough from everybody or they don't hold lurkers accountable or they spend day phases sorting personal drama as opposed to playing the game - even if everybody agrees on universal scumreads (or a universal scumread), there's still information gained from the obscene amount of heavy lifting that results in agreement.

I've seen people rely on PRs and mechanics almost exclusively and end up losing because scum just outplay them mechanically

I've seen it enough times that I can't be bothered to care about mechanics in most games anymore

-Edmund Duke, Alpha Squadron

[Oh]

VOTE: Nacho

-Edmund Duke, Alpha Squadron

[Oh]

ank

btw

last time I played in a game that both RC and Shoshin were both in, they completely took over control of the game and I was expected to make waves almost immediately despite the game functioning in a way I can't read

then there was a call to end the day within hours after I had replaced in, when I was still at work

I ended up halfassing a catchup and being a scumread for the rest of the game because there wasn't anything there I can actually read, yet I had enough effort BoP that I was expected to get something from it anyways

this has been a trend that is most noticeable in RC/Shoshin games, but it happens a lot in RC games in general or really any game with plenty of egos, I inevitably either don't ramp up in the first place or ramp up immediately and then step back

I don't see a point in throwing my weight around day one or really even getting into the game at all; I learned from fallout last year what happens when I try to do it anyways

it's lose/lose to put that effort in when I don't have any real agency to do anything and I have potential to save the game if shit goes sideways when I bide my time and my sanity for when the game has that power vacuum after egos start dying

it also doesn't help that I'm kinda known for being able to brute force towns onto a winning trajectory so I can't even be sure I'll be alive by the time that happens so that's even another reason not to put the effort in

-Edmund Duke, Alpha Squadron

[Oh]

since when did ank not really play D1?
is this a recent development, or...?

@Oh

[Oh]

I want Shoshin dead for in game and external reasons.

Ank agrees that Shoshin should die (paraphrasing) exclusively for in-game reasons.

[Oh]

do I get a choice?

-Edmund Duke, Alpha Squadron

[Oh]

if I don't really have any choice, then asking me is a waste of time

-Edmund Duke

[Oh]

I'm not, I worded things in a way that confused him

I don't have any real read on you

-Edmund Duke, Alpha Squadron

[Oh]

I want Shoshin dead for in game and external reasons.

Ank agrees that Shoshin should die (paraphrasing) exclusively for in-game reasons.

Shoshin is literally never going to die ever if you let me die.

Not particularly relevant since I think we intend to protect you anyways (I guess I make this comment solely for the purpose of ego), but I think that if I had never said anything about my frustration with Shoshin's inability to play mafia and made it clear I have reasons >wincon to see her lynched I would have had very little difficulty doing so.

-E

[Oh]

@RC how much better is a Wisdom BK (Baton Kill) over a YukzYuk BK?

[Oh]

-E

[Oh]

I will not deviate, Yukz.

@Oh/Sakura, why are you choosing Nacho over Cici?

We're working on something.

Ank wants to engage the game a different way and we're trying to stall the hammer. We have a couple more things we want to get done first.

[Oh]

Ank agrees that Shoshin should die (paraphrasing) exclusively for in-game reasons.

This was wrong because I incorrectly took separate parts of our discussion and merged them. I apologize, I'll work to prevent this in the future.

-E

[Oh]

Ank doesn't have any real read on Shoshin atm.

[Oh]

I feel like that doesn’t make sense. I feel like people scumreading Shoshin are sticking their heads in the sand about the real implications of that ultimatum post.

Do you have something against sand?

[Oh]

On a more serious note, Shoshin lies a lot as scum. In Burden of Proficiency she regularly did things as scum and then told us that she would never do that thing as scum. Considering that she might be the type of player to stoop as low as to make the ultimatum she did as town, I wouldn't put it past her to stoop so low as to make the same ultimatum as scum. Because she isn't replaced/modkilled for it, I'm taking it as NAI (because if something really caused a player to be read undeniably one way or another due to external influences with the intentional way this does, I believe/hope that player would be removed from the game).

[Oh]

Also I need to be gone for ~32 hours w/o access and such so please don't end day while I'm gone