Guns & Roses III [Game over]

[Menalque]

He would have been an easy mislynch if I hadn’t been calling his lynch shit ever since the wagon on him started

[Menalque]

It was such a lhf lynch bc he wasn’t here and now it’s persisting in spite of him coming back

That’s a shitty lynch

[Menalque]

Anyway I gotta have lunch I’ll prob be around for a bit in ~1.5 hrs to try to convince you to lynch scum instead

[Menalque]

I think you’re joking but if you’re not I think the arguments against a scum lynch D1 only have any validity when you’re at 4 scum+ in the game

[Menalque]

wow creature was town s u r p r i s i n g

[Menalque]

Is Iconeum talking that much in the scum thread?

Define a lot

More than here but less than in micro 900

[Menalque]

Why do you think sally might be scum?

[Menalque]

Salamence ran away as soon I was hammered

Bc this?

[Menalque]

No, I’m on mobile

[Menalque]

Why do you think sally might be scum?

[Menalque]

weren’t you in pfup SS?

[Menalque]

I mean I find it weird that you’re phrasing that as an open question bc I think that was a pretty major point of discussion in pfup

[Menalque]

As in I said very explicitly there a lot of times that the fact FL wasn’t dead was town!indicative for me

So I kinda feel like you already know that FL is a good scum kill for me and that I have enough history with him to make that kill and it’s off to me that you’re choosing not to say that directly

[Menalque]

Pret is the weirder kill tho

[Menalque]

Oh, are we gonna get the DDL case today?

maybe i need to consider if ddl is still scum in light of flips

[Menalque]

Find it weird that I’m not dead in a world of ddl scum

[Menalque]

Yeah I think so

Are you saying you’d forgotten the whole thing of me going on about how scum!me would 100% of the time have killed FL N1?

[Menalque]

I thought you weren’t TRing me bc you thought something was off?

[Menalque]

Are you saying you didn't completely block the fiasco that was pfup from your memory?

(I remember it now that you mention it but mostly all I could think of was that FL was obvscum and nobody wanted to kill him but me.)

Not as hard as I blocked the fiasco that was AvP from my memory

I still remember pfup bc it was instructional to me about when I shouldn’t let myself be talked out of a SR

[Menalque]

menal weirdly defensive of an open question

I don’t think this is being defensive but ok

[Menalque]

Find it weird that I’m not dead in a world of ddl scum

this is just wifom though

Well yeah but it’s still kinda bold seeing as I think that it’s p likely I could get him through today and he’d know that

[Menalque]

I thought you weren’t TRing me bc you thought something was off?

Tonally yes but independently I townread your DDL push which was a vastly more substantial reason for a read.

Okay, this makes sense

[Menalque]

Are we sure that Pret was a scum kill though? Because Salamence was mostly townread from what I remember so I think scum was more likely to kill him.

Interesting. You think that Boon was a vig shot because Salamence was the scum kill?

Possibly, but probabaly unlikely with how little town guns there are

Yeah but this probably implies a scum cross-shot unless scum chose to stack shots for late game

[Menalque]

@dats what do you think about the pret kill?

[Menalque]

I think it’s prob mechanically optimal for guns to not trueclaim unless they can corroborate a rose claim, and even then this is prob not ideal before lylo

[Menalque]

Bc if guns trueclaim then scum know where they can shoot for a guaranteed kill

So probably only worth claiming if it outs a rose claim that’s a lie bc someone was shot on a night and didn’t die but is claiming rose for a different night

[Menalque]

I hate mechanics and they’re not my strong point but I think that makes sense

[Menalque]

I mean fakeclsiming a future night

[Menalque]

Also scum is almost certainly going to claim rose?

[Menalque]

Oh right wait you mean bc scum is unlikely to choose rose it means that probably someone lying to stay alive is still prob town?

[Menalque]

Idk if scum would take all gun tho, didn’t fb take a rose last game?

[Menalque]

Idk u tell me

[Menalque]

I need to sit with this game for a bit,

I need to reread ISOs and a lot of D1 with the Creature/Pretentious flips in mind,

and frankly that's not gonna happen for the rest of today so expect real stuff from me tomorrow

can more people engage with my DogWatch reasoning and her thoughts in 1425 and 1426? idk if scum would suggest that no scum were on the Creature wagon, that's a little out of left field

Same tbh

Okay, I’ll think about it

[Menalque]

I'm

not so convinced scum was on that wagon tbh

. It was the amrun wagon that felt more scummy to me, not creature's.

Okay, why?

tex and menal ping me most currently. I don't know what to think about SS yet but he is a possibility. If there's any scum on creature's wagon, I'd lean towards Icon. I don't think DDL is scum fwiw.

Why am I pinging you

Why is tex pinging you

Why don’t you think DDL is scum?

What makes SS a possibility?

[Menalque]

VoteCount 1.10

GuiltyLion [1] - texcat
DrDolittle [2] - Menalque, Pretentious

Creature [8] - Salamence20, GuiltyLion, Datisi, Amrun, AaronFrost, Dogwatch, Iconeum, alimdia [LYNCH]

AaronFrost [1] - Something_Smart
Amrun [2] - Creature, DrDolittle

Not Voting [0]

-

With 14 alive it takes 8 votes to be chosen.

Countdown to deadline: (expired on 2019-12-11 13:35:31)

Okay, I’m thinking most probable is 2 on 1 off

That gives 2 scum in (GL, dats, amrun, AFF, dw, icon, alim) if right

And 1 scum in (tex, ddl, SS)

I think I’d rather hunt off wagon bc of that, as it makes for a 33% chance of hitting scum assuming 2 on 1 off is right

I think the resistance on the creature wagon now that he’s flipped town implies that scum were not all on. I think that would only make sense if scum were on early and pushing it, but we know sally is town

So prob 2 on 1 off, possibly 2 off 1 on given the level of resistance which would mean a 66% chance of hitting scum lynching off wagon

[Menalque]

Tex needs to post more content tbh

[Menalque]

Like there isn’t enough there for me to have a solid read yet

I have some paranoia around SS mostly bc I felt like he was resisting everything I was trying to do D1 and I think normally we’ve worked quite cooperatively together? But still think he’s prob town

So that just leaves ddl but again, idk if scum!him leaves me alive after my D1 push

[Menalque]

Hmm, I was waiting for you to ask that. Not much.

I don’t love this answer btw datisi

[Menalque]

Okay, I’m thinking most probable is 2 on 1 off

That is statistically the most likely possibility (probably, haven't done the math).

I doubt it's any more likely than statistics say it is.

[Menalque]

I have some paranoia around SS mostly bc I felt like he was resisting everything I was trying to do D1 and I think normally we’ve worked quite cooperatively together? But still think he’s prob town

Cooperation does not mean agreeing on everything

Yeah, I agree with that

But idk I felt like you were sort of consistently resisting my pushes or asking questions that were critical of them rather than asking me about why I wanted to push there

[Menalque]

Idk I need to reread you, it just felt different to what I remember of you disagreeing with me in the past

[Menalque]

Had you already had the thought about 2 on 1 off?

[Menalque]

I mean the level of opposition I'll hold against things people say varies from game to game based on several factors, primarily whether I actually disagree with what people are saying, lol.

Not sure if I do it more or less as scum. In fact I honestly have no idea what my scumgame would look like right now because my last scumgame was way different from any other one I've played.

Am I right in thinking that was A2TGC?

[Menalque]

Had you already had the thought about 2 on 1 off?

No, I

think that kind of unsupported VCA statement is garbage and a distraction.

I may read a specific player because I think their reasoning for being on or off the wagon did or didn't make sense, but trying to specifically hunt the scum who was off the wagon is a recipe for disaster.

This, btw, is exactly what I’m talking about

Are you implying that my VCA was garbage and a distraction? Is this separate to my VCA?

Also I hard disagree with this point, I think that unless you believe it’s likely scum were all on or off, it makes sense to split into PoE pools that give you the best odds of hitting scum unless you have a very strong individual scumresd that overrides that

[Menalque]

Subject: Pokémon Fusion U-Pick [Game Over]

VC 1.43

Emperor flippyNips (9): Menalque, Katyusha, Alchemist21, Dr Easy Bake, itlepip, Avengers, book kid, RCEnigma, Pink Ball
Avengers (3): Flavor Leaf, Emperor flippyNips, mastina
RCEnigma (2): [hated], MariaR
MariaR (2): jibril, Gamma Emerald
jibril (1): [hated]
Chemist1422 (1): [hated]
Not Voting (2): Something_Smart, Chemist1422
With 17 players alive, it takes 9 to reach a lynch. Day 1 ends in (expired on 2019-07-21 21:20:00).

So on the wagon there are 3 confirmed town in myself, Kat, book leaving (Menalque, Alch, Deb, itle, Avengers, PB)
Out of this pool scum likelihood is avengers/Menal/Alch/Deb/itle/PB. It's possible there are multiple scum ON wagon but more likely there are multiple scum OFF wagon.
Flippy is confirmed town Via flip and Mastina is town leaving FL, Maria, Gamma, Jibril, SS, Chemist.
Jibril is spewed town via oversouls replace out though I was reading town there beforehand. FL could be scum but I doubt it. It's also less important to catch FL as scum than his partners, FL will be tied to them on flips regardless.
Don't have strong reads on either non voter so Maria/Gamma/SS/Chemist is also a reasonable pool, all of which have some equity for scum.

This is actually close to my own analysis.

Katyusha, you, Pink Ball, and book kid are all pretty locktown; leaves probably 2 scum (could be as low as one or as high as three; I very sincerely doubt all four scum piled on to the mislynch) in {Menalque, Alchemist21, Dr Easy Bake, itlepip, Avengers}. Honestly I'd lynch any of those names though by gut I still feel like Menalque is less likely scum and generally don't feel strongly that itlepip would be scum (basically I think that the highest chance of finding scum is in the Alchemist/DEB/Avengers trio--I'll trust the townread on Alch tho to not focus on him as much).

Off the wagon, we know Avengers was all town but there's probably 2 scum (could be as low as one but probably not as high as three) in {MariaR, Gamma Emerald, Something_Smart, Chemist}.

In that pool of four, I'd rate them most scum to least scum in actually exactly that order, but I fully confess/admit that I don't really have good reads on any of them.

Basically I think that we have two pools; I'd most want to lynch in {Avengers > DEB > Alchemist21}, {MariaR > Gamma Emerald}.

I'm not sure those five contain the entire scumteam, but if I had to venture a scumteam guess right now, a scumteam composed among those five players would be my best educated guess.

Like I’ve been using the choice to hunt on or off wagon ever since mastina did this in PoE and kicked out the names of 3/4 scum with it, with 3/5 in her pools

If that can be aided by reasonable assumptions (namely, the wagon was too hard to have had 3 scum on it) then it makes sense to play within the group (on or off wagon) where you have the best odds of hitting scum

[Menalque]

A2TGC

What does this mean

Added to the group chat

[Menalque]

So that just leaves ddl but again, idk if scum!him leaves me alive after my D1 push

Pret was the only person besides yourself who actually ended up voting DDL, and he's dead. Any reason you don't mention it/take it into account?

Plus, not like your DDL push was that hard (or working). S'there a reason to think scum!DDL fear-kills you like that?

I forgot about that, but I still think ddl would want to kill me over FL bc I think FL was more preoccupied with you than with him

Also I think ddl probably knows me enough to know that a push not gaining ground is something I’m likely to double down on pushing rather than forget about, and also bc he knows I can get pushes through

What’s your ddl read?

What do you think about my argument for why we should lynch off wagon?

[Menalque]

Are you implying that my VCA was garbage and a distraction? Is this separate to my VCA?

Your statement that it was probably 2 on 1 off, while true, was a distraction, because then you go on to say there's a 33% chance of hitting scum in {texcat, DDL, S_S}, which is not supported by math, and you've given no evidence for it.

Are you being intentional dense?

There are 4 unflipped players off the creature wagon

Me, you, ddl, tex

If it’s 2 on 1 off then fmpov there’s a 33% chance from lynching in (SS, ddl, tex)

It’s probably 2 on 1 off because of the wagon resistance on creature, maybe even 2 off 1 on, which is a point I’ve made about 3 times now so saying I’ve given no evidence for it is ???

[Menalque]

Do you think all 3 scum are on wagon @SS

[Menalque]

If all 3 scum are on wagon when we know it was being pushed by town (sally) then why was it so hard to get through

[Menalque]

3 scum on wagon makes no sense from a gamestate pov

[Menalque]

So that just leaves ddl but again, idk if scum!him leaves me alive after my D1 push

Pret was the only person besides yourself who actually ended up voting DDL, and he's dead. Any reason you don't mention it/take it into account?

Plus, not like your DDL push was that hard (or working). S'there a reason to think scum!DDL fear-kills you like that?

I forgot about that, but I still think ddl would want to kill me over FL bc I think FL was more preoccupied with you than with him

Also I think ddl probably knows me enough to know that a push not gaining ground is something I’m likely to double down on pushing rather than forget about, and also bc he knows I can get pushes through

What’s your ddl read?

What do you think about my argument for why we should lynch off wagon?

You've played with DDL before?

Same as yesterday, disinterested nullish-Town.

I'm still thinking about it, I've never played a game that wasn't a Micro, I'm not yet familiar with VCA in this setting. Plus I'd like to revisit a couple of things from D1 properly, and I probably won't have time for that until Monday.

Yeah, although actually we haven’t played together where I’ve been town but I thought he meta’d me for C9++ although maybe I’m remembering wrong

Also, hmm

[Menalque]

No I'm not being intentionally dense. The strongest wagon resistance to Creature was Creature himself, me, Pretentious, and you whom I townread. It was, by and large, TOWN resistance.

The fact that the wagon went through despite heavy town resistance should make it more likely than random that all 3 scum were on it, no?

Hmm, maybe

The only thing I’m not sure about is you being town and the fact that scum!you has a strong incentive to angle for a 3 scum on angle

Then again idk why scum!you doesn’t go with this when I didn’t wanna lynch you out of the off wagon trio anyway

What do you think of ddl and tex independently at this point?

If all scum is on wagon who do you think it is?

[Menalque]

If all 3 scum are on wagon when we know it was being pushed by town (sally) then why was it so hard to get through

How was it hard to get through? The wagon only sprung up because Creature wasn't posting, and the he started posting, and nobody batted an eyelash and he was lynched anyway.

Just because it took a lot of time doesn't mean it was hard. There was no counterwagon and almost nobody on the wagon made any effort to create one, pretty much sealing his fate.

It felt like it was hard to get through, and I think generally wagons stalling out is indicative that they’re not easy wagons

Also I think there was at least one effort to create a counterwagon on ddl and I thought on someone else too?

[Menalque]

Also, hmm

hmm?

Hmmm

[Menalque]

My stomach feels really weird so I won’t be doing anything other than memeing if I’m here today

[Menalque]

I’m gonna try to reread tonight to see what I can get from that

I still think lynching offwagon is correct for today

[Menalque]

I really don’t like that we went for a lucky slot yesterday and it flipped town and despite that you wanna follow the exact same strategy again today @GL

[Menalque]

VOTE: GL

[Menalque]

your reaction was massively over defensive and I don’t really see why town!you would be worried about it

You seem off as well in that you’re choosing to throw quite subtle shade at me instead of trying to work with me

You’re making a really weird semantics point while simultaneously saying that it’s not so much to influence the game as it is for you to look back at later despite that it’s obviously influencing the game by throwing shade at my slot

Your immediate reaction to being voted is also really defensive “how could you possibly be scum reading me” and again trying to throw shade at me which isn’t what I think you do with someone who I’m pretty sure you were townreading before

But mostly you’re trying to direct lynches onto the unproductive slots while trying to keep your distance from it by talking about how “I personally don’t have any good reason not to lynch them” which is super awkward phrasing that I don’t think is likely to come from town who I think would just say “I wanna lynch tex/DW for being lurksacks” rather than feeling such a need to justify it

It would also make sense from a gamestate point of view in that scum have probably been relatively happy with things and letting the game tick over rather than highly contesting it which makes me think the most likely slots that looked like they were lynchable today were all town (DW, tex, maybe ddl)

[Menalque]

Lynching off wagon is still mechanically correct and I need to re-ISO you for D1 alongside everyone off wagon but haven’t gotten to it yet

[Menalque]

Oh also makes sense with why I’m not dead after N1 bc I was TRing you

Although tbf i need to double check what sally thought too

[Menalque]

quick hot takes:
1) I like Menalque's argument about lynching off wagon, I doubt all three scum were on the wagon.
1a) however what if Menalque is scum I'm not sold on him being town yet
2) DoLittle's reads aren't bad
3) I don't love Datisi's Aaron push, in fact I kinda hate it

I'm about here I think:
Town club: {alimdia, Aaron, Iconeum, Smart}
conditional members: {Menalque, Amrun}
lynchpool?: {DoLittle, texcat, Datisi, DogWatch}

however I don't think it's likely that all three scum are in that lynchpool block either so there are some knots in my game state view I need to work out

if we want to lynch off wagon then texcat is my current choice. I agree with Amrun's assessment in 1589

like this is me literally trying to work with you, and instead you shade me, and then say

I'm

the one not working with you?

You’ve literally been shading me since here and I’m p sure I remember you shading me D1 as well I’ll try to go find it tomorrow

And then when I do actually try to work with you (following up on dogwstch after you asked people to) you ignore it and then get overly defensive when I push you for going after a lurker lynch AGAIN

[Menalque]

And frankly, I don’t think you have actually done that much today because you’ve been so focussed on DW

If we lynch DW and she flips scum then okay you’re probably town but if not then you’re pushing 2 lurker lynches in a row wtf am I supposed to think of that

[Menalque]

There is a point about you being more relaxed as scum and I’ll think about that incl as I read your ISO tomorrow, but on the other hand you literally just lost as scum with me so why would I expect you to play the same way as opposed to playing more intensely

[Menalque]

Menalque your GL case is primarily projecting what you expect a townie ought to think onto him.

Go on

[Menalque]

like, I actually think my point about Menal just seeing me as scum in Nomination Mafia is really strong here. I'm not over defensive as scum, I worry so much about being perceived as over-defensive that instead I act super chill and cool with my own lynch all the time. I was playing Nomination accounting for my own Lynch to contribute to POE solves.

Whereas as town I'm far more picky about people scumreading/voting me and I dive headfirst into battles all the time, which I avoided as much as possible in Nomination, other than 1v1ing with pisskop a little bit. Me reacting to being shaded in a one-liner is not scum!indicative from me at all, especially given Menal's direct and immediate experience with how I play as both scum and town.

And I mean again, very explicitly:

You’re aware of your scum meta which means you can manipulate it

You just lost a game playing to that scum meta

I just played a game with you where you were in that scum meta

What possible incentive is there for you to not intentionally manipulate your meta this game as scum?

[Menalque]

I think I want to lynch ddl the most out of offwagon

What makes me a better deepwolf than SS?

Idk I don’t remember the datisi point

Right and I’m waiting on answers from DW to sort there myself but why are you calling for more votes/pushing harder when the problem is the exact same thing of the person just not being around

I dislike the amrun tex push for the same reason, namely lynching no/low content slots is lynching slots that it’s hard to have an accurate read on and for that matter makes it hard to read in the later game esp if the person who dictated those lynches is still alive and has killed off sceptics. Like I think that’s a solid scum strategy and it’s why I think lurker hunting is bad vs hunting in the active players

There is a difference between saying that YOU are coasting scum, and saying that scum is costing — you can be engaging and managing so long as you’re pushing in a direction unlikely to meet resistance which then let’s your partners coast to avoid drawing attention to themselves, and, as mentioned, I think that if the lynch was trending towards scum it would have been more strongly resisted rather than apathied towards a DW/tex lynch

[Menalque]

So no, I don’t think you’re scum coasting but I think you could be scum managing the gamestate therefore allowing the scumteam to coast

The frustration thing is actually a good point tho

[Menalque]

But like if you’re frustrated I don’t understand why you’re angling towards two slots who just aren’t here and therefore by definition aren’t going to produce any more content rather than aiming at people who are here and who are sortable if you’re dissatisfied with your reads

[Menalque]

Why do you think lurkslots have > avg scum equity?

[Menalque]

VOTE: ddl okay let’s do this then

[Menalque]

Like my objection to you trying to metaclear yourself is that self aware scum is very able to intentionally break their range a number of times to increase the odds of winning and I don’t see why it’s unlikely that you wouldn’t /try/ to do that because otherwise you’re sandbagging your scumplay for the benefit of your townplay

[Menalque]

But yeah I need to sleep but my bigger concern is less to do with any of that and more to do with your approach on what I think are slots with very low content instead of trying to read people with more AI shit in their ISOs

[Menalque]

I should have done this a couple of days ago tbh but

mod, VLA pls

flying back to the UK tomorrow organising things the last couple of days and saying goodbye before the holidays has been occupying

[Menalque]

I have very briefly skimmed since talking to GL but I'm not caught up

icon is probably town

I need to interact with datisi more but I'm sticking with lean town there for now

I'm still mixed on GL but I think SS may have had a good point although if either of them is scum I think the other one has +scum equity

dogwatch is prob town

if ddl flips scum then bussing isn't a bad thing to look at but it is a terrible thing to look at re:me given the fact that I am an outspoken proponent of not bussing and on a more meta level: why do I choose to break that as scum rn when team mafia is coming up in all of 2 weeks or so

on the other hand, I don't think amrun is scum really

ddl scum is probably AFF scum too and is probably clearing for amrun as I think that's a scum push

[Menalque]

haven't really read gamma since he repped in, can't remember the last time alim did anything

that's all I have time for tonight

[Menalque]

I will eventually be answering everything that gets asked of me so if you have Q's throw them

ddl votes are good but honestly smh that it's taken this long

[Menalque]

p sure I'm already voting ddl but just in case VOTE: ddl

[Menalque]

if you think that scum is off wagon then can you just fucking lynch ddl with us so I can get the towncred I need to lead this game

[Menalque]

Back in the uk now

Going to sleep

Pls don’t lynch while I’m asleep as I wanna jam tomorrow with anyone who’s online/around before deadline

[Menalque]

alright fuckers, I'm back in the UK, I'm well rested, I have a larger laptop screen

who's online

[Menalque]

we're gonna hard solve this game

[Menalque]

excellent, gimme a sec, I'm reading

[Menalque]

I keep expecting S_S to explain that naked vote on me, but nope. Just hangin out for presumably no reason.


I strongly townread GL now, fwiw. On day 1 I could not follow his train of thought in a genuine way. D2, with the realization that he was comparing it so specifically to high noon, I do.

Menalque, why are you categorizing DogWatch as a lurker? I don’t.

because she has the lowest posts of everyone in the game aside from alim and tex/gamma!slot

I just checked and she had only 3 more posts than alim at the time that you posted this and he hasn't posted in 3 days so my question back to you is why don't you think that's lurky?

[Menalque]

I keep expecting S_S to explain that naked vote on me, but nope. Just hangin out for presumably no reason.

I'm sheeping Creature, and I believe Aaron townslipped.

where was this? because I looked through your ISO and I couldn't find you talking about it anywhere before you include it as a justification for your vote here

[Menalque]

You aren’t making a genuine attempt to sort me at all, though. :/

I did, but didn't get very far. I'd rather trust Creature's attempt to sort you, at least for now.

Creature didn’t attempt to do shit, with anyone, which is why his dying reads were clearly a garbage pile on fire. He couldn’t have been more disengaged with this game.

I mean he made 80 posts in a day which I'm not rereading right now but I don't think it's fair to say he couldn't have been more disengaged with the game when he was posting that much, even if he had been disengaged before that point

[Menalque]

so actually I did reread creature's ISO and I think he was very clearly engaged and trying to get reads on multiple players by the end of day

would you disagree with that assessment @amrun

[Menalque]

@SS what is your opinion on Pret's play? not specific to this game but in general

[Menalque]

because you mentioned in 1666 that part of the reason you were sheeping creature was that he was more confident but I was looking at pret again and I think he was p confident too

[Menalque]

also, what's your opinion on datisi when you get here?

[Menalque]

Why did Creature make 80 posts in two days if he was disengaged?

Have you met Creature?

I know enough to know that post count is meaningless for him

.


I don’t really have a ton of experience with him so maybe I shouldn’t be talking like that, but,

perhaps Creature and I have different definitions of “engaged,” too.

I myself have had a very difficult time engaging with this particular game, but I’m getting there.


My point is, though, that I try to take into account dead players’ reads, as referenced up thread, but I have never, ever been tempted to let them supplant my own reads. Not once.

okay so how do you define being engaged and why do you think post count is meaningless for creature?

[Menalque]

I think SS v amrun is probably SvT but idk which side the scum is on

[Menalque]

I don't like amrun's diminishing/dismissal of creature's reads but I also don't like SS's reasoning for just straight sheeping there, and the fact that he's the second highest poster and has been asking a lot of questions from a glance but is still having more faith in creature's reads over his own considering how much additional content there's been since the creature Lynch

[Menalque]

also, what's your opinion on datisi when you get here?

Absolutely nothing.

meaning null?

[Menalque]

where was this?

1390

why do you think it's a townslip?

[Menalque]

I was looking at pret again and I think he was p confident too

I don't think so? He had some confident townreads but was hunting scum in a pool.

I mean he expressed confidence in his datisi scumread multiple times

[Menalque]

meaning null?

More than just null, I can't remember a single thing she's done.

okay, so what do you think that says about her alignment?

[Menalque]

Spoiler:

Is there really no other reasoning you've kept your vote on GL, @texcat? Nothing else from him you find AI one way or the other?

VOTE: Creature

I don't wanna flip GL. I'm still okay going back to Amrun if possible, but I'm definitely not impressed by Creature so far either.

This is scum

Okay.

VOTE: Daitsi

The posts are saying a lot of nothing, they were the first on Amawesome, they immediately went to creature.

And they’re asking fluff questions and staying under the radar.

I used my heat seeking scum directed lance and it brought me to datisi.

Dogwatch
Iconeum
DrDolittle
alimdia
Texcat
AaronFrost

Probably in this list. Not exactly sure where.

Datish
Amrun
DrDolittle
AaronFrost

Pick one to lynch

Fire list, Creature. Fire list.

Join DDL.

I’d rather Datisi lynch, and that last post of them makes DDL-Datisi likely

Join on DDL, Creature.

If a couple more come on, we can transfer the wagon

pret being confident on datisi scum

[Menalque]

@SS what is your opinion on Pret's play? not specific to this game but in general

also can you answer this please

[Menalque]

If you couldn't tell I'm not playing a very good game, playing mafia around the holidays is always hard.

well apparently neither am I given that people are somehow thinking that me catching scum will be scum!indicative for me if ddl flips scum

[Menalque]

it is deliberately a little vague because I want your opinion rather than indicating to you what I want from you as an answer if you're scum

[Menalque]

ah fuck it, okay, my point is what do you think of FL's play vs creature that you've been much more focussed on creature's vs Pret's reads despite pret having been similarly confident in datisi!scum vs creature's confidence in amrun!scum

[Menalque]

incidentally I'm beginning to have doubts about ddl!scum

I'm not sure if scum!ddl does this little to try and avoid his lynch now that it's looking likely

[Menalque]

@ddl what was your last scum game?

[Menalque]

I understand both SS and amruns perspective and they come from so different mindsets that it shouldnt be theatre

can you explain what you meant by this @ddl

[Menalque]

UNVOTE:

[Menalque]

also where tf is icon

[Menalque]

I see where you're coming from, of course. It does give me an EXCUSE for if you flip town. But then again,

(a) that's not an excuse that's likely to really be convincing to anybody

, and (b) I could certainly come up with other excuses for my own read was wrong-- a favorite of many people is "it's their own fault they were mislynched, they shouldn't have played so scummy," which I personally hate (it often amounts to victim blaming).

if you don't think this is likely to be convincing to anyone why did you spend 1683 laying out reasons for why this is as valid a reason to vote someone as voting them off your own back

also your point B seems to just be avoidant to me

[Menalque]

Mena, I don't think you've ever answered, what made you think DDL was the scummiest slot in the game, and how is his disengagement here changing that?

I think his D1 was scummy and I still think his D1 was scummy -- I think he was posting around the average amount, staying in the middle, but his content was significantly not geared towards actually solving or sorting which is more often scum than not

his disengagement here is enough that it's at least making me question my SR because idk if scum does this little to prevent their lynch/if his scum buddies would also be doing such little to prevent his lynch

[Menalque]

Mena, I don't think you've ever answered, what made you think DDL was the scummiest slot in the game, and how is his disengagement here changing that?

I thought his D1 was scummy and I still think his D1 was scummy -- I think he was posting around the average amount, staying in the middle, but his content was significantly not geared towards actually solving or sorting which is more often scum than not

his disengagement here is enough that it's at least making me question my SR because idk if scum does this little to prevent their lynch/if his scum buddies would also be doing such little to prevent his lynch

ebwop

[Menalque]

I keep expecting S_S to explain that naked vote on me, but nope. Just hangin out for presumably no reason.


I strongly townread GL now, fwiw. On day 1 I could not follow his train of thought in a genuine way. D2, with the realization that he was comparing it so specifically to high noon, I do.

Menalque, why are you categorizing DogWatch as a lurker? I don’t.

The more this day goes on, the more I'm townreading Amrun. Natural progression in reads, willing to look outside the box, feels like trying to solve the game.

Amrun do you think I'm mis-reading you or reading you in bad faith

Also, I'm not comfortable with Menal pushing DDL. I didn't like the DDL wagon on D1, and I don't like the push on DDL now.

This particular post also comes off extremely townie to me.

I've got bad vibes on the Datisi slot, but nothing I can bring to words further then I've already done. Yeah sure this might come off as shading, but it's just what I feel this game.

why, at this point did you not like ddl and what precisely about that post makes it extremely townie?

[Menalque]

1694 is so contradictory it's actually one of the main reasons that I'm TRing icon bc I think he tries to be more consistent when he's scum and I don't really think scum!him decides that calling me town and scum in the same post is the best way to get my lynched, I think he'd focus more on creating a narrative of how he ended up SRing me

main concern around icon!scum is that I know now that he'd consider me someone to get rid of and this does have "leaving the door open" vibes to it

[Menalque]

Any thought about DDL being bussed?

I'm not there yet

[Menalque]

if you don't think this is likely to be convincing to anyone why did you spend 1683 laying out reasons for why this is as valid a reason to vote someone as voting them off your own back

I mean it is a valid reason. It's also a reason I chose. That doesn't absolve me of responsibility for the vote.

my point is that saying "the real thing to look at is someone's reasoning for why they voted is the important thing and not the outcome" seems off to me

I think that's a great cover for scum to fall back on after a mislynch because while, yeah, I do think your reasoning around sheeping creature makes sense, the point is that scum!you already knows what amrun would flip, which means you could deliberately display a reasoning that makes sense as to why you voted there

[Menalque]

Hmm, I was waiting for you to ask that. Not much.

I don’t love this answer btw datisi

But no further attempts on your part to sort Datisi?

I haven't been around icon, why is this AI for me?

If all 3 scum are on wagon when we know it was being pushed by town (sally) then why was it so hard to get through

This one and the next really give me a feeling that Menal is town trying to sort through the wagons

3 scum on wagon makes no sense from a gamestate pov

Like, not impossible to fake as scum, but still.

VOTE: GL

your reaction was massively over defensive and I don’t really see why town!you would be worried about it

You seem off as well in that you’re choosing to throw quite subtle shade at me instead of trying to work with me

You’re making a really weird semantics point while simultaneously saying that it’s not so much to influence the game as it is for you to look back at later despite that it’s obviously influencing the game by throwing shade at my slot

Your immediate reaction to being voted is also really defensive “how could you possibly be scum reading me” and again trying to throw shade at me which isn’t what I think you do with someone who I’m pretty sure you were townreading before

But mostly you’re trying to direct lynches onto the unproductive slots while trying to keep your distance from it by talking about how “I personally don’t have any good reason not to lynch them” which is super awkward phrasing that I don’t think is likely to come from town who I think would just say “I wanna lynch tex/DW for being lurksacks” rather than feeling such a need to justify it

It would also make sense from a gamestate point of view in that scum have probably been relatively happy with things and letting the game tick over rather than highly contesting it which makes me think the most likely slots that looked like they were lynchable today were all town (DW, tex, maybe ddl)

Realllly dislike the GL case. Dislike to the point where I think this is the game we catch scum!Menal.

why do you dislike it so much? can you be more specific instead of just generally saying "I don't like it"

Menalque your GL case is primarily projecting what you expect a townie ought to think onto him.

Go on

But your interactions sometimes like this give town viiibes

Ur hard to read this game, dude

I mean, yeah, because I haven't been around enough to obvtown

VOTE: ddl okay let’s do this then

Can you try and sort Datisi for me? I know you know her pretty damn well in game, and I'd love for you to give a more 'full' opinion on Datisi slot.

I'm in the process of doing this now. what do you think of datisi atm?

[Menalque]

I've kinda skimmed both MenavGL and S_SvAmrun will probably reread it more in depth later

Has the day finally come where we will get a DDL case?

was this question to me

also did you reread those two interactions in more depth yet?

[Menalque]

I don't like Mena's GL case either. The entire thing is full of misreps of how GL is actually playing here.

okay, what were the misreps

[Menalque]

I am genuinely getting annoyed at this game
We have less than 3 days
I don't feel like I have any strong SRs
And half my TRs have questionable moments

Aaron is again starting to remind me of myself in 1949
VOTE: Aaron

can I get a readslist dats

what is AFF doing that reminds you of you in 1949

I don't think you're that similar here really, and I think you were p much a universal TR in that game whereas AFF isn't here

[Menalque]

yes, and no

ur so helpful as always

[Menalque]

GL, you've mentioned High Noon a couple of times wrt reading Amrun. Does my play from that game influence your read in any way?

were you in the hydra btw? I had wondered about that

[Menalque]

I knew which post you were replying to lol

[Menalque]

VOTE: menal
your ddl push is gross and your GL push is gross

okay why are those pushes gross and why do them being gross make me the most likely player to flip scum fypov

[Menalque]

I'll lynch anyone below the line today.

Amrun
DDL
Icon
Aaron
alimda
GL
____

menal
texcat
ss
datisi

why are datisi and SS in here

[Menalque]

TRs: {GL, Icon, S_S, alimdia}
TRs

but what was that push:

{Mena, DDL}
PoE: {Aaron, DW, Tex, Amrun}

This is where I am ftr

And I think I called you Town once, which was after the first wagon on you that I felt emerged for BS reasons.

wrt to readslist, I think this still more or less stands
though I'll have to relook S_S

this is talking about my ddl push D1, correct?

[Menalque]

and I think regardless of your alignment he would make sense as scum

How does DDL make sense as scum if menal is scum? That would be some pretty hard bussing.

+1

[Menalque]

I'm

not so convinced scum was on that wagon tbh

. It was the amrun wagon that felt more scummy to me, not creature's.

Okay, why?

tex and menal ping me most currently. I don't know what to think about SS yet but he is a possibility. If there's any scum on creature's wagon, I'd lean towards Icon. I don't think DDL is scum fwiw.

Why am I pinging you

Why is tex pinging you

Why don’t you think DDL is scum?

What makes SS a possibility?

dogwatch did you ever answer this cause I don't think u did

[Menalque]

tbh this game is a lesson to me on why I should never let myself fall behind

[Menalque]

Posts like these from Aaron:

Spoiler:

TRs: {GL, Icon, S_S, alimdia}
TRs but what was that push: {Mena, DDL}
PoE: {Aaron, DW, Tex, Amrun}

This is where I am ftr

And I think I called you Town once, which was after the first wagon on you that I felt emerged for BS reasons.

Can't really PoE though when no one here is confirmed town. Why not just say you're scumreading them?

Ok first thing I'm not sure what you mean about the PoE, Aaron? Yeah nobody is conftown but those are people that I was to some extent TRing so... ?

I don't really like the use of the phrase because it doesn't really apply to the situation. Like when you use it it sort of implies that you don't have any strong scumreads, but like you've also made it clear you're not TRing anyone in that group. Why not just say you're scumreading them?

Doesn't PoE literally refer to the group of people you're not TRing?

Yeah I suppose, but I think the phrase is more applicable when you can rule out conftown players to find the remaining scum.

hmmmm

Aaron why did it seem Townie to you that Amrun did an Ico meta check?

I just seems like sort of a bizarre thing for scum to do or even bring up. Like you could argue that she's doing it for townpoints, but it didn't read that way to me and I don't think that's something scum!Amrun would do to try and get town points.

remind me a lot of myself in 1949. The discussion about what PoE means reminded me a lot of my shading of your Korina case because it was "spread across multiple pages and hard to read". The reason for giving Amrun Townpoints struck me as so weird and therefore kinda forced

Because I can kinda sorta maybe see what Creature was going at because Aaron doesn't ~feel Town~, but in the game like half the slots don't ~feel Town~ and I'm not sure what to make of it

regarding 1918 I mean I think a big difference is that arguing about PoE is very different from arguing about presentation

like I don't agree with AFF that poe doesn't work without conf!town (although it is obviously less efficient) but I think that's still really different from "person is scummy because they presented what they were saying in an unclear way" so I don't get that similarity

who are the slots that don't ~*feel town*~?

[Menalque]

this is talking about my ddl push D1, correct?

yes, your D1 DDL """push""", and immediate dropping of said push for you being alive even tho 50% of the people voting DDL ended up dead

and also DDL barely mentioning you and having this sorta weird TR on you throughout the game that he handwaves as "townies are wrong"

and now you stopping his lynch again

well yeah exactly, I never really got the chance to push it D1 and when I did people stayed glued onto creature despite the reasons for SRing him being bad

also I don't think I dropped it today, I just said I wanted to reconsider? why is me saying I want to reconsider scum!indicative? esp when I was the strongest advocate for a ddl Lynch and the easiest way to control whether you're getting pushed or not is using the nk as scum to remove people who are likely to be problematic for you and ddl had plenty of reasons to believe I'd be problematic for him today (as in he didn't have good reasons to think I would consider my not being dead in this way)

I haven't got to that point yet but are you not also TRing me? so why is ddl TRing me weird? do you think he should be omgusing regardless of alignment?

also tbh if he is scum at this point then him continuing to TR me makes sense because somehow this "mena is bussing ddl" theory has gained traction

which also doesn't make sense because how are you reconciling my constant anti-bus position with me deciding to bus on D1?

and I'm pausing his lynch because I'd ideally like him to answer my questions without anyone being able to lolhammer, I'm only stopping it if his answers are enough to persuade me he's not scum

[Menalque]

GL, you've mentioned High Noon a couple of times wrt reading Amrun. Does my play from that game influence your read in any way?

were you in the hydra btw? I had wondered about that

and yes, I was Logic
I thought it was obvious by my post-game comments to birb (and to anyone who knows what "datisi" means khm)

ngl I didn't read the whole thing

[Menalque]

Doing an ISO on DDL... his entire Amrun tunnel is shallow as hell tbh

why

[Menalque]

okay my head is starting to turn to mush so I'm taking a pause to have some lunch I'll prob be on this evening if people are still around/if other people are around

[Menalque]

we still have like 24hrs tho so there's no need to rush a lynch

[Menalque]

u called?

[Menalque]

this is talking about my ddl push D1, correct?

yes, your D1 DDL """push""", and immediate dropping of said push for you being alive even tho 50% of the people voting DDL ended up dead

and also DDL barely mentioning you and having this sorta weird TR on you throughout the game that he handwaves as "townies are wrong"

and now you stopping his lynch again

well yeah exactly, I never really got the chance to push it D1 and when I did people stayed glued onto creature despite the reasons for SRing him being bad

also I don't think I dropped it today, I just said I wanted to reconsider? why is me saying I want to reconsider scum!indicative? esp when I was the strongest advocate for a ddl Lynch and the easiest way to control whether you're getting pushed or not is using the nk as scum to remove people who are likely to be problematic for you and ddl had plenty of reasons to believe I'd be problematic for him today (as in he didn't have good reasons to think I would consider my not being dead in this way)

I haven't got to that point yet but are you not also TRing me? so why is ddl TRing me weird? do you think he should be omgusing regardless of alignment?

also tbh if he is scum at this point then him continuing to TR me makes sense because somehow this "mena is bussing ddl" theory has gained traction

which also doesn't make sense because how are you reconciling my constant anti-bus position with me deciding to bus on D1?

and I'm pausing his lynch because I'd ideally like him to answer my questions without anyone being able to lolhammer, I'm only stopping it if his answers are enough to persuade me he's not scum

Where? You made an actual case on Amrun. All you did wrt to DDL was ask people to vote and make some arguements about inactivity or whatever. Like when you get the time I'd like you to kinda go a bit more in depth there and wrt your Creature TR

okay cool you wanted to reconsider but the only person who gave you any consideration for voting DDL ended up dead and you don't comment on that part at all, like if there was absolutely nobody listening to you except for that 1 person then removing that one person could do a very good job of stopping the wagon and I found it really weird you didn't even seem to consider that?

I'm TRing you yes, but it's shaky, and I'm very not sold on it yet. DDL TRing you wouldn't be as weird if he tried to actually engage with you about your SR on him and maybe try to get you to untunnel or anything? Like don't Townies getting pushed by someone they TR like try to interact with that slot? Instead he gives it p much zero thought and keeps TRing you regardless because "not in danger of getting lynched" or whatever

And I called it "theatre". In scum!Mena and scum!DDL world, that wasn't bussing. The way you "pushed" him, then dropped it gave a vibe of you not wanting to lynch him in the first place.

so, I think I put in a fairly minimal amount of effort casing amrun, and also there was more there to case -- with ddl, the case is the lack of activity. I can do this, and will, same for my creature TR but if we're about to chat in real time then I'm prob gonna focus on being here and participating in that rather than posting something that's 5 pages behind the conversation

you actually make a v good point on the pret kill potentially being to rob ddl wagon of support while not being as much of a red finger pointed that way as killing me directly would be after calling for him to be lynched. however, still depends on whether scum!ddl believes I could get a wagon going on him bc if he does then I would still expect him to be somewhat worried about leaving me alive for D2 to push him

I mean if ddl is scum then him choosing to TR me without talking to me that much makes a lot of sense,

especially

since you started floating the idea of it being theatre, bc then it looks bad for me if he flips scum as opposed to what it should do which is make me borderline conf town bc again, I DON'T BUS unless it's strictly necessary and you know this is true because I hard fought you on whether we should bus even when it was becoming strictly necessary

you can also look in C9++ scum thread and see that I'm strongly against bussing throughout while it's not necessary

me being unsure isn't me saying I don't want to lynch him, it's saying there are things that are giving me pause and that I'd ideally like to give him a chance to respond to me before we lynch him

[Menalque]

Because it provides town plenty of insulation? Why do you think town having many guns is good?

I don't think having

many

guns is good, as evident by last run

But with one Town gun being dead before he got to shoot and with hell knowing what's the status of the other one, this game might be getting close to mountainous? And i don't like Town's chances there

Also Gamma, I kinda think the problem of your catch-up is speed? You've only done 5 pages, and the game has over 70, with the Day ending in a bit over two days. Your slot has done jack shit this game, and unless we get p lucky with our roses, tomorrow is most likely LyLo/MyLo if we mislynch.

So would be good to have some substance to read your slot I guess? Rather than waiting for the long catch up that's half just fluff.

Eh it’s still not mountainous because there are still Roses to stop kills, beyond that your point is somewhat fair regarding performance in mountainous, but what has happened that makes you doubt town’s abilities?
And yeah I’ll be working on more catch-up today, yesterday ended up unexpectedly super packed with other business. I hope to get to like Page 25 today.

can you stop focusing on catch up and try to be around to interact in real time bc as someone already said that's probably more useful at this point

[Menalque]

his disengagement here is enough that it's at least making me question my SR because idk if scum does this little to prevent their lynch/if his scum buddies would also be doing such little to prevent his lynch

why does town do this little to prevent their lynch? when I'm town and at L-1 I'm making gigantic wall posts of all my last reads and thoughts, both to try not to get lynched as one desperate last measure and to help town after my flip

I think you're doing to ddl what I did with regard to you, i.e. reading him not doing what you would be doing as meaning he's scum

I think giving up is slightly +town, esp when you still have multiple buddies left who could help steer the wagon away

if you're scum and getting lynched, it counts a lot more against your faction than if you're town and you get mislynched so scum are more incentivised to try to stop the lynch whereas I think town are more likely to decide it's not worth the effort to hard fight it

I think this doesn't hold up so well when scum are (1) already committed to bussing the member so they're already defeatist about going down or (2) they're the last one left so they know they'd have to try and dig themselves out on their own which can seem like a waste of time when it's probably just gonna result in your lynch anyway

[Menalque]

Menalque let's say you're town and DDL is scum, any guesses as to who are his partners?

AFF is prob one of them

[Menalque]

maybe SS too? I'm not convinced scum is bussing atm, the wagon is generally townie

could be icon/alim/gemerald too but I'd lean most confident on AFF followed by SS

[Menalque]

What do you want me to respond to? I gave all my reads and whatnot so

err 2 secs lemme find it

[Menalque]

@ddl what was your last scum game?

I understand both SS and amruns perspective and they come from so different mindsets that it shouldnt be theatre

can you explain what you meant by this @ddl

@ddl

[Menalque]

I keep expecting S_S to explain that naked vote on me, but nope. Just hangin out for presumably no reason.


I strongly townread GL now, fwiw. On day 1 I could not follow his train of thought in a genuine way. D2, with the realization that he was comparing it so specifically to high noon, I do.

Menalque, why are you categorizing DogWatch as a lurker? I don’t.

because she has the lowest posts of everyone in the game aside from alim and tex/gamma!slot

I just checked and she had only 3 more posts than alim at the time that you posted this and he hasn't posted in 3 days so my question back to you is why don't you think that's lurky?

Eh, she’s been present for every major game state IIRC. Whenever she posts, it’s content. Not everyone is a spammer. That aspect doesn’t bother me.

eh, I'll reread, I'd say she's had a very low thread presence imo which is lurky

do you consider lurky to be inherently scummy?

[Menalque]

so actually I did reread creature's ISO and I think he was very clearly engaged and trying to get reads on multiple players by the end of day

would you disagree with that assessment @amrun

He picked it up, yes, but Creature is a high post rate player no matter what he’s playing. I find post count irrelevant. I also think all his reads at the end when he “seemed” more engaged were really, really bad.

well no, I don't agree

I think that creature being lurky isn't really AI for him, but I've consistently only seen him put down big numbers as town with one exception

so I do think that him hyperposting 80 posts is certainly enough to not lynch him on D1 based on his meta and I think that scum would definitely want creature dead if they could plausibly mislynch him and no-one acknowledging that creature is a great mislynch for scum to get if possible is bad

why were his reads really bad?

[Menalque]

I just disagree with 1939 tbh, I think that was creature playing normally and trying to sort

[Menalque]

Also, I don’t buy tinfoil on this one. One at most of DDL/Menal is scum.

I also do not read his giving up as a town thing

.

why, ideally giving voice to why you think my logic in 1956 is wrong

[Menalque]

Like I'm not doubting that Amrun is a strong player or anything, but the case 'she isn't playing to her meta, must be scum' is shallow and surface level.

No you are right AF. Shes not playing to her meta. I should town read her

I'm not saying that you have to TR her, I'm saying that if you are SRing her, then you should attempt to make a case on her that isn't meta.

@dats I really didn't like the timing on this, it happened right after I voted ddl and GL indicated a willingness to vote there and I think that their recent interactions (one SRing amrun and one Thing her) makes sense as scum distancing plus I don't think he really wanted to get involved in the ddl wagon until it was end of day and so I can see the willingness to hammer thing being a bus bc driving a new wagon onto town very likely gets ddl lynched tomorrow anyway and the person responsible for redirecting would look terrible

[Menalque]

otoh I think AFF is basically locktown if ddl!town, there was a post he made that made me think very strongly that it's not SvT even if it can be SvS

[Menalque]

I keep expecting S_S to explain that naked vote on me, but nope. Just hangin out for presumably no reason.


I strongly townread GL now, fwiw. On day 1 I could not follow his train of thought in a genuine way. D2, with the realization that he was comparing it so specifically to high noon, I do.

Menalque, why are you categorizing DogWatch as a lurker? I don’t.

because she has the lowest posts of everyone in the game aside from alim and tex/gamma!slot

I just checked and she had only 3 more posts than alim at the time that you posted this and he hasn't posted in 3 days so my question back to you is why don't you think that's lurky?

Eh, she’s been present for every major game state IIRC. Whenever she posts, it’s content. Not everyone is a spammer. That aspect doesn’t bother me.

eh, I'll reread, I'd say she's had a very low thread presence imo which is lurky

do you consider lurky to be inherently scummy?

I guess it depends on your definition of lurking. If you’re simply comparing number of posts down a list, no.

I guess my answer is still no, either way, though.

I think lurking is inherently antitown, but it’s a behavior town frequently engage in too. I just recently tried to stop a mislynch in LUV (chronic lurker) upon replacing into a game because I think his play, while antitown, made most sense to be town motivated. (I was right, fwiw.)

For me, it depends on HOW a player is lurking. What junctures do they choose to pop in? What do they say, when they do?

A lurker probably has better than random chance at being scum

, so I guess that kinda makes my answer yes, but... Context really does matter.

The shit texcat did, beetlejuicing and deliberately avoiding commitment on most major gamestate changes, THAT is lurking I find tremendously scummy. Gamma’s, however, is NAI because he’s catching up so he’s in a grace period for me.

yeah, I'm talking pure amount of posting happening in the thread

even if someone is putting out a big content post once every 48 hours, I still think they're being lurky even if they're not scummy for it

I agree that how a player is lurking is important to assess when deciding if it's scum!motivated lurking or not, I think people who lurk and then only appear when they're getting called out are likely to be scummy but with tex I just don't think there's anything like enough content there to say if it was just incredibly lazy/disengaged town or scum intentionally lurking it out and I don't see how the posts they did make are enough for you to be confident enough to call it "tremendously scummy"

[Menalque]

oh, and datisi is town @anyone wondering

[Menalque]

I also recently anti-spewed as scum that was clearly going down, and not the last scum, specifically to protect my partner and not make any of his mislynches unviable. It was radja’s recent micro and my partner was gamma. So I definitely know scum could and would do that.

hmm okay I do forget that some people worry about spewing partners instead of taking the opportunity to create bad associative for town when they're going down

[Menalque]

how did you arrive at that conclusion

menalque

well you're not in the scum pt with me so it was kind of an inevitability

[Menalque]

its not even the leadership role, its blatantly sticking his neck out when he's clearly wrong. i don't think menalque-style-scum plays like that you know - he would give himself some form of out

idk

This is the reason I don't think Mena is scum. I think scum!Mena would've backed off of the DDL push by now because if it goes through, then he knows it'll look bad on him and he'd want to avoid that as much as possible.

I think the only scenario where Mena is scum here is if he's scum with DDL and this is his attempt at getting towncred.

like I just think that this is a really weird line to be trying to set up if you're scum!AFF thinking town!ddl is going through bc it makes it really hard for him to push me on a ddl!town flip but he's made other posts which could be him setting up to push me if ddl!scum

so basically I don't see the scum motivation in pointing out that you're thinking this as scum when you could just ~*not*~ say it

[Menalque]

hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm

you're relaxed, and specifically you're being relaxed around me in a way that I think you struggle to emulate when you're scum and I'm town

and I don[t really see any scum!motivation in you trying to push people for reads and to make the game productive right now regardless of ddl's alignment because you're not using that effort to try to redirect away from him you're just trying to force a more productive gamestate and I don't think that's coming from scum you

[Menalque]

mostly the you not being in the scum pt thing tho

[Menalque]

@Menalque: Part of it is that I keep waffling on my reads of other players, but I was internally discounting my read on tex for the same reason until I re-read day 1. In context, it came off as active lurking and the phrasing of his posts made me feel like he was avoiding associatives, and one that he was setting up mislynches, which I noted in thread.

It is rare that my top scumread is the lurkiest player, but alas... I’m in that sad position.

However, also voting DDL, etc etc

I'm still about 5 pages behind and have other people to respond to but I'll try to take another look at tex's posts

I just still don't think there's literally enough there for me to feel like I have a confident read on the slot, so I also think I wanna shelve gamma for today and see what he comes out with

prob won't hurt to have a fresh pair of eyes either, if the slot is town

[Menalque]

I think there is few scum on my wagon as they are content sitting back right now waiting out the deadline because there is no counterwagon threat.

on AF, I think this is maybe town?

if you think that scum is off wagon then can you just fucking lynch ddl with us so I can get the towncred I need to lead this game

hate to break it to you but a DDL scumflip is not how you're gonna get towncred from me

Seconding this, a find it strange that he thinks that'll get him towncred. At the same time, I think Mena knows that a DDL townflip would look bad on him so I don't think Mena is scum pushing a mislynch on town!DDL

Hmm, Datisi might be right about her tinfoil theory

although ss and alimedia are afk so idk

Pls lynch amrun day 3 after 2 town flips calling for her head. That is all

These are DDL's last posts at L-2 and under serious possibility of lynch. hasn't posted yet since intent to hammer. you really think this is all a townie cares to say as they're about to be rung up?

Last game I played with DDL where he was town he was a D1 Lynch in a Micro. here's his ISO from that game. Notice how much more aggressive he is giving out last thoughts/reads, and in general throughout.

Plus this post is fun:

"

I am meek as hell when I play scum what are you talking about

. I literally said in my last scum game, gosh people have scum agendas and plans and I'm just barely able to stay alive.

I want an appology from you after this game when I flip town if you are town too. what you are doing to me this game is entirely in bad faith."

this isn't the same DDL from that game.

okay yeah, I'll grant you this isn't great for him but have a look at the scum game he linked -- I don't think that's very similar to here either and I think he's being more aggressive in that than in here

on the flip side in both of them there are excuses to do with production of content, only in the one he linked it seems to be more to do with irl factors whereas here he seems to talk more about not feeling invested in the game

but yeah I'm not convinced that the whole "do you really believe this is all a townie says" thing is scum!indicative, I think there's p much just as many reasons for him to do that as town

[Menalque]

wait isn't Menalque saying they could be scum together tho, it's never scum!AF and town!DDL

yes

[Menalque]

i read 1980 and 1987 like 5 times each and i still don't get them but it's okay i'll reread them later

and Mena when I was the initiator of the Mena/DDL theatre theory your scum PT jokes are odd

y tho

[Menalque]

more the why are my scum PT jokes odd when I do this in I think nearly every game now

[Menalque]

in 1980 I'm saying that for me lurkiness is to do with frequency of posting not amount of content. amount of content is what I think is a more useful barometer of scumminess: lots of posts and no content? scummy? very few posts but lots of content? towny

the former is scummy but not lurky, the latter is lurky but not scummy

in 1987 I'm saying that scum!AFF knows what alignment ddl is i.e. if it'll be a red flip or a green flip. some of AFF's posts make me feel he could be setting up to vote me. however, he specifically says that he thinks I'm only scummy really if I'm scum with ddl. so this could make sense in a scum!ddl, scum!aff world. they're distancing, and AFF is setting up to push me tomorrow. HOWEVER if scum!aff knows ddl is town, there's not really a good reason to say that I'm prob town if ddl!town, because then it makes it actually p difficult for him to vote me as it would mean he'd have to flip around his explanations for why ddl!town makes me scum. and there was no pressure on him to make that statement about me, meaning that he would have had to have chosen to just make a post that makes his life harder as scum for absolutely no reason or benefit, making me think town!AFF if town!ddl

[Menalque]

more the why are my scum PT jokes odd when I do this in I think nearly every game now

See dude, I told you in the scum PT you shouldn't be making those

well next time you gotta post in in ALL CAPS otherwise I miss it with icon spamming so much in there

[Menalque]

I only remember you making those jokes in Secret Hitler actually

someone doesn't stalk my games anymore

[Menalque]

i may be a bit behind yeah sorry

also thank you for explaining those posts I am Tired

I forgive u I'm like basically Jesus

and u r well c o m e

[Menalque]

Here's a breakdown of why I don't like your GL case Mena.

your reaction was massively over defensive and I don’t really see why town!you would be worried about it

I don't think his reaction was over defensive. And even if it was, is being defensive a scummy trait? Town players have every reason to defend themselves as much as scum players do.

in hindsight I think it wasn't as over defensive as I thought it was at the time. but I read 1600 as pretty defensive, and I thought him making an entire post (1601)entirely based on semantics possibly implying I'm scum was an effort to make me look worse which seemed more like someone feeling worried about a changing read and not the way I would expect someone to react to one of their TR's reconsidering them (where I would expect there to be an attempt to reassure). going from me being town to "if you think this is my scum game then you're probably just scum" also felt like a super charged way to interact with a slot you were TRing up until that point (he says this isn't true -- I think that's probably fair, but at the time I thought he was TRing me so the shift felt much more abrupt) in 1607

You seem off as well in that you’re choosing to throw quite subtle shade at me instead of trying to work with me

Where was he throwing shade at you?

1600, 1601, and 1553 which we discussed on literally the next page of the thread

You’re making a really weird semantics point while simultaneously saying that it’s not so much to influence the game as it is for you to look back at later despite that it’s obviously influencing the game by throwing shade at my slot

Again where was the shade?

already answered

Your immediate reaction to being voted is also really defensive “how could you possibly be scum reading me” and again trying to throw shade at me which isn’t what I think you do with someone who I’m pretty sure you were townreading before

Again I don't think GL has been overly defensive in the way which you're painting this to be.

as noted, this is probably fair. but instead of asking me at the time why I thought he was being overly defensive (ie that he shifted from a hard TR on me to going "if you dare think I'm scum you must be scum") you just called my push bad and didn't pursue it which is ehh

But mostly you’re trying to direct lynches onto the unproductive slots while trying to keep your distance from it by talking about how “I personally don’t have any good reason not to lynch them” which is super awkward phrasing that I don’t think is likely to come from town who I think would just say “I wanna lynch tex/DW for being lurksacks” rather than feeling such a need to justify it

Fair point about tex/Gamma, but I think there's plenty of other reasons for lynching DW other than them just lurking.

okay, which are?

It would also make sense from a gamestate point of view in that scum have probably been relatively happy with things and letting the game tick over rather than highly contesting it which makes me think the most likely slots that looked like they were lynchable today were all town (DW, tex, maybe ddl)

GL's become one of my stronger townreads today because his attempts to solve feel genuine and he's showing a townie mindset. I don't think he's been overdefensive or 'shading' your slot, but rather trying to sort it.

feel like I've already answered the points on over defensiveness and shading. why does me pushing at GL indicate that I'm scum just because you disagree? esp now that I don't really think GL is scum

[Menalque]

you reading the last 3-8 pages would probably be infinitely more useful than you voting based on page 8 @gamma

[Menalque]

oh yeah another point on ddl/AFF scum was I thought they were both kind of positioning on DW to be the compromise lynch

[Menalque]

yeah I think I'm probably overthinking this

VOTE: ddl

[Menalque]

would rather this didn't get hammered overnight so I can jam a bit more in the morning esp with icon who has been disappearing a bit, but outside of thinking there's scum in amrun/SS I'm still most confident here and I think the wagon is town motivated

[Menalque]

Err no we should not be claiming

Claiming literally just tells scum where they can shoot for a guaranteed kill

[Menalque]

If I had to like take a stab at the gamestate I think I'm still townreading Datisi, Ico, and Amrun, but I don't feel great about it. My gut scumreads are Smart and Menalque but I don't feel great about that either. Gammas slot is bad and I still want to lynch it, but we just lynched two bad slots that flipped town, and I don't have a confident read on Dogwatch or Alimdia. I kinda want somebody else to try to take charge for a little bit because I think somewhere along the way I've been buddied and I don't see it.

Why am I a gut scumread for you GL

[Menalque]

The only time where there should be a claim is if the last gun is looking like they’ll be lynched

[Menalque]

Hmm

I’ve also been going wrong somewhere I’m just not sure where yet

[Menalque]

I think datisi and GL are still town but I’m not really sure about anyone else

Can I get a readslist from everyone pls

[Menalque]

I mean having a conftown today would be good depending on who it is

If it’s someone who thinks they can townlead then it would be good to have direction

But if not then all you’re doing is giving scum information preemptively which could be revealed at L-1 instead if that’s we look like we’re lynching

Do you think it’s likely scum has 2 guns left?

[Menalque]

Right but I’m saying I think that’s a relatively small likelihood and the flip side to it is giving them a guaranteed place to shoot tonight

[Menalque]

Again, what is the benefit to them claiming now (so scum definitely finds out who they are and gets a guaranteed kill) vs having them claim at L-1 if needed

[Menalque]

We need to move faster todsy tho so that in the case of that happening we can redirect without rushing/deal with any CCs

[Menalque]

What concerns do you have about me @datisi

[Menalque]

Again, what is the benefit to them claiming now (so scum definitely finds out who they are and gets a guaranteed kill) vs having them claim at L-1 if needed

Any scum at L1 would also claim gun then, can they be trusted at this point?
If they're one of the scum looking people they should claim now. If they are in no danger of being wagoned, then sure, keep quiet.
But I much prefer if its one of the scummy looking people that claims now so we either get a 1v1 or we stop a mislynch earlier.

Who exactly are the scum looking people? Claiming it at L-1 still stops a mislynch and if scum were to claim gun then the real gun would CC and we’d either lynch scum or have a guaranteed scum lynch tomorrow

Whats the benefit to having a 1v1 now esp when that’s likely to draw focus away from sorting other slots

[Menalque]

Explain all of those and respond to the other point in that post about why we shouldn’t massclaim

[Menalque]

@datisi well yes but do you have actual reasons or is this just ~*paranoia*~

[Menalque]

Explain all of those and respond to the other point in that post about why we shouldn’t massclaim

We won't have a 1v1 if the town gun claims NOW before theres a wagon. Its unlikely scum claims a town gun here and initiates a 1v1? Thats what I think at least. Once we have a cleared, we can re-evaluate based on that new info.

We don't know if the extra kill on N1 was town or scum.
If it was the town gun on N1, we need to know that, because it means the scum are stockpiling guns for later and this could be LYLO or MYLO potentially....

I mean if scum have been weighting guns towards late game then yeah they probably just CC because it’s winning if they can get the actual gun lynched

Regarding the extra N1 kill: unless we full massclaim then it doesn’t really help bc we won’t know if scum shot N1 or N2 roses and missed so we’d still be working in the dark. The only case we’d know they didn’t miss on N1/N2 is if basically everyone claims late game roses (N3+)

Overall I don’t see the advantage of giving scum extra information about rose night distribution vs not doing that?

[Menalque]

I think datisi and GL are still town but I’m not really sure about anyone else

Can I get a readslist from everyone pls

Gonna pop this here as a reminder

[Menalque]

We don't claim what night roses we are obviously...

Yes but if we don’t then we’re not actually learning anything that useful about whether scum have weighted their guns towards later nights making your second point worthless and again, so long as scum haven’t got their guns weighted towards later then pre-emptively having the gun claim is just giving them additional information earlier than we need to given that the gun can just claim at L-1 if necessary

[Menalque]

Alim I want a readslist from u

[Menalque]

ty dats

[Menalque]

What about your TRs

Is that your SRs in order?

[Menalque]

Letterbomb

by Green Day

.

I didn’t know you were an RC alt

[Menalque]

SS what’s your current readslist?

[Menalque]

Why is datisi so low and when did I get so high?

[Menalque]

Why gamma > SS, dw?

[Menalque]

Why is datisi so low

Because I don't have any kind of townread on her but she's been in the game long enough that I very well could have.

when did I get so high?

...like D1?

Okay lemme check something, hang on

[Menalque]

also, what's your opinion on datisi when you get here?

Absolutely nothing.

meaning null?

More than just null, I can't remember a single thing she's done.

okay, so what do you think that says about her alignment?

Probably > rand scum but not by much. I don't know Datisi well enough to say with any confidence.

So what changed to cause her to shift over into being your joint top SR?

Just the fact you still aren’t TRing her?

[Menalque]

Err no we should not be claiming

Claiming literally just tells scum where they can shoot for a guaranteed kill

I never suggested night be claimed, just Gun/Rose

Ffs what I said about claiming specifically was in reference to a particular point alim was trying to argue

And claiming gun/rose still gives scum a guarantee on where to shoot bc there’s only 1 gun left

[Menalque]

Why gamma > SS, dw?

Partly to pressure that slot into providing some actual content, also because I'm really having a hard time understanding SS in this game. I REALLY don't get his Creature sheeping but I also read his 1v1 with Amrun as TvT, so my head is kinda spinning with his slot.

What was it about that exchange particularly that made you think it was TvT?

[Menalque]

I never suggested night be claimed, just Gun/Rose

Which tells scum where they can shoot for a guaranteed kill...

But I would think scum would want to possibly kill off Roses over Guns

why?

[Menalque]

why would scum not just take the kill that they know will go through every time?

[Menalque]

SS I'm really struggling to get a good read on you this game

[Menalque]

which I think may actually be town indicative for you bc the only time I personally played against scum!you I was TRing you very hard