Community

[The Bombay]

Hey the game started.
Don't mind if I do.

VOTE: The Bombay

OMGUS

VOTE: Bell

~Luke

P.S. Gonna go ahead and apologize to the mod for the inevitable posts that I forget to sign. I generally don't sign in a hydra, but will try my best given the rule.

[The Bombay]

I don't think that Furtive would fake claim miller as scum, so he can go to the town pile

[The Bombay]

I don't think that Furtive would fake claim miller as scum, so he can go to the town pile

Wow. I made it 1 post

~Luke

[The Bombay]

Hello everyone! I am here, ready to be a shining light against the delegation!

VOTE: DeasVail

JUST the delegation?

I am kind of thinking that StarPower appearing to not know that there is a 3rd party makes them more likely to be town.

Seriously doubt that the actual 3rd party would not be too self-conscious to frame it that way, so imo town>scum>3rd party

[The Bombay]

Hello everyone! I am here, ready to be a shining light against the delegation!

VOTE: DeasVail

JUST the delegation?

I am kind of thinking that StarPower appearing to not know that there is a 3rd party makes them more likely to be town.

Seriously doubt that the actual 3rd party would not be too self-conscious to frame it that way, so imo town>scum>3rd party

I am so sorry.

~Luke.

Forced signing is going to kill me.

[The Bombay]

Then simply...don't?

Hydras will be permitted as long as they sign consistently.

[The Bombay]

Hello everyone! I am here, ready to be a shining light against the delegation!

VOTE: DeasVail

JUST the delegation?

I am kind of thinking that StarPower appearing to not know that there is a 3rd party makes them more likely to be town.

Seriously doubt that the actual 3rd party would not be too self-conscious to frame it that way, so imo town>scum>3rd party

But mafia can't collaborate with the 3rd party in this game. Everybody losses. So,

makes sense mafia would be as interested in this 3rd party as the town.

Or not that interested yet as the game just started.

This feels like you misunderstood. My point was that the mafia would be

more

cognizant of the existence of the 3rd party, while StarPower's post reads like someone who was not thinking about the existence of a 3rd party.

Therefore, town being the most likely alignment to make such a post.

Not the basis for a strong read, but as far as page 1 posts go, it is nice to have an inkling on someone

~Luke

[The Bombay]

VOTE: kokabiel



-Marci

[The Bombay]

I'm trying to make posts made so far AI in my head, but I'm not really coming up with much.

rcan you please explain what you mean by “make posts AI in your head?”

I tend to think that most posts are probably NAI, at the end of the day. But particularly in the early game I think it’s helpful to think about whether particular posts are more likely from town, and to push on anything that might be from scum. For the posts made thus far, I had some thoughts along the lines of “this could be from town”, but then also counter-arguments in my head about why what I thought was town, wasn’t necessarily.

For example, I agree that Star Power’s post isn’t particularly indicative of scum, but I also can’t townread that post. In the end it’s just a colourful way of saying “let’s kill scum!”

IMO I don't think you are a dull player so if you haven't seen anything suspicious yet then I think you should reread and be more open to being skeptical and critical of others. I think the idea of whether or not most posts are NAI is tricky. In this particular game I believe that a lot more AI content than usual has been created.

can you vote kokabiel

-marci

[The Bombay]

I'm trying to make posts made so far AI in my head, but I'm not really coming up with much.

rcan you please explain what you mean by “make posts AI in your head?”

I tend to think that most posts are probably NAI, at the end of the day. But particularly in the early game I think it’s helpful to think about whether particular posts are more likely from town, and to push on anything that might be from scum. For the posts made thus far, I had some thoughts along the lines of “this could be from town”, but then also counter-arguments in my head about why what I thought was town, wasn’t necessarily.

For example, I agree that Star Power’s post isn’t particularly indicative of scum, but I also can’t townread that post. In the end it’s just a colourful way of saying “let’s kill scum!”

IMO I don't think you are a dull player so if you haven't seen anything suspicious yet then I think you should reread and be more open to being skeptical and critical of others. I think the idea of whether or not most posts are NAI is tricky. In this particular game I believe that a lot more AI content than usual has been created.

can you vote kokabiel

-marci

Why didn’t you ask me?

can you vote kokabiel?

[The Bombay]

Stuck on mobile atm, but I did see multiple people refer to Marci's vote on Koka as an RVS vote, when it wasn't.

My vote on Bell was our RVS vote.

Marci said she wanted to vote Koka because her iso was "beyond useless"

I opened the iso and agreed that it was weird that the only thing she had commented on up to that point was the "just the delegation " thing, and absolutely nothing else. Seemed like she was overly cautious of voicing opinions.

~Luke

[The Bombay]

I'm trying to make posts made so far AI in my head, but I'm not really coming up with much.

Must be scum out of ideas.

Also, saw 2 different people taking this seriously.

I am pretty sure that this was a sarcastic/ joke post from Bell. Which made passenger latching onto it as an excuse to vote DeasV pretty bad.

[The Bombay]

Vaguely leaning town on:

Bell
Furtiveglance
Frogster
Johnny

These are Luke thoughts, not really talked with Marci about these yet.

~Luke

[The Bombay]

Random or serious?

Bit late for random. I guess you want more explanation then. I think 21 comes to the conclusion that I'm trueclaiming a bit too quickly. 33 as well. Feels a bit "meh, not sure" which Bell was like as mafia in The Turing Test.

If it makes you feel better, Bell's reactions to your claim were my exact reactions too.

[The Bombay]

It is not a matter of having a ton of reads, which is what they seem to be trying to turn it into, it is a matter of scope.

The entirety of Koka's iso prior to our vote (3 posts)

Spoiler:

Hello everyone! I am here, ready to be a shining light against the delegation!

VOTE: DeasVail

JUST the delegation?

Smart penguin.
Would be funny if two people come to replace him.

Hello everyone! I am here, ready to be a shining light against the delegation!

VOTE: DeasVail

JUST the delegation?

I am kind of thinking that StarPower appearing to not know that there is a 3rd party makes them more likely to be town.

Seriously doubt that the actual 3rd party would not be too self-conscious to frame it that way, so imo town>scum>3rd party

I can also see it as a 3rd party slip because he got excited and wrote his raw thoughts without thinking. Agree that it's less likely to come from scum tho

Other then jumping on a single thing from StarPower, who are they trying to sort? Who are they asking questions to?

Just some examples off the top of my head: Did they have thoughts on furtive's claim, did they have a reaction to Bell's reaction? Did they have thoughts about me in light of my response to their only stated suspicion? No clue, because the only thing in the entire game that was apparently worthy of comment on was exactly 1 star power post.

-----

The fact that their reaction to our vote was to attack, instead of asking any kind of questions (like I don't know, "why are you scum reading me?" or "was that a serious vote") shows that they are more interested in attacking / discrediting us, then sorting us.

I am even more happy with our vote then before tbh.

[The Bombay]

It is not a matter of having a ton of reads, which is what they seem to be trying to turn it into, it is a matter of scope.

The entirety of Koka's iso prior to our vote (3 posts)

Spoiler:

Hello everyone! I am here, ready to be a shining light against the delegation!

VOTE: DeasVail

JUST the delegation?

Smart penguin.
Would be funny if two people come to replace him.

Hello everyone! I am here, ready to be a shining light against the delegation!

VOTE: DeasVail

JUST the delegation?

I am kind of thinking that StarPower appearing to not know that there is a 3rd party makes them more likely to be town.

Seriously doubt that the actual 3rd party would not be too self-conscious to frame it that way, so imo town>scum>3rd party

I can also see it as a 3rd party slip because he got excited and wrote his raw thoughts without thinking. Agree that it's less likely to come from scum tho

Other then jumping on a single thing from StarPower, who are they trying to sort? Who are they asking questions to?

Just some examples off the top of my head: Did they have thoughts on furtive's claim, did they have a reaction to Bell's reaction? Did they have thoughts about me in light of my response to their only stated suspicion? No clue, because the only thing in the entire game that was apparently worthy of comment on was exactly 1 star power post.

-----

The fact that their reaction to our vote was to attack, instead of asking any kind of questions (like I don't know, "why are you scum reading me?" or "was that a serious vote") shows that they are more interested in attacking / discrediting us, then sorting us.

I am even more happy with our vote then before tbh.

~Luke

[The Bombay]

I'm trying to make posts made so far AI in my head, but I'm not really coming up with much.

Must be scum out of ideas.

Also, saw 2 different people taking this seriously.

I am pretty sure that this was a sarcastic/ joke post from Bell. Which made passenger latching onto it as an excuse to vote DeasV pretty bad.

I wasn’t using it as an excuse to vote DeasVail, I thought that DeasVail’s post was weird before I even saw Bell’s post, and then when I turned the page and saw his post it clicked in my mind.

Also how do you even come to the conclusion that I’m using Bell’s post as an excuse to vote DeasVail? I add on to Bell’s post and provide my own reasoning on top of it.

Maybe "as an excuse" is the wrong word, but you definitely framed your vote as you agreeing with Bell

I'm trying to make posts made so far AI in my head, but I'm not really coming up with much.

Must be scum out of ideas.

This is also what I thought. It seems like DeasVail is playing from the point of view of someone who is looking over posts with a checklist of tells to appear useful, rather than engaging in actual solving.

VOTE: DeasVail

Like I said, I think I used the wrong words when I said "as an excuse."

Dumbing down my reaction to the post to make it more clear what I am saying that I saw, is I felt like I was reading "Yes, I agree with you, fellow townie, this *is* scummy. Lets vote this"

Framing your suspicions as agreeing with someone else feels like an approach that scum would take. It was compounded by the fact that I don't think that Bell was serious, so it felt like you were not closely reading either Deas or Bell's posts there.

Anyways, I am more interested in in Koka atm, but that was my gut reaction to reading your vote post.

~Luke

[The Bombay]

I think that Flavia's recent pop in (160 and 162) is incredibly scummy.

Like, the fact that when she came back to the thread, the thing she had to comment on was furtive's miller claim and bell's response from page 1, and then flashed forward to the current page to defend against a scum read pointed her way, and then left the thread with no comment on anything else.

It makes it feel like she wanted to make a comment on *something* but also did not want to touch any of the current discussions with a 10-foot pole.

~Luke

[The Bombay]

The difference is that Marci invited you, whereas Dease invited himself. Marci can invite anyone, so how would that make it SvS?

I do agree with you that it felt weird when deasnails invited himself to your wagon like that, it felt like he was a pick me and just wanted to be on my side lol, but I didn't really pay that much attention at the time since I was more focused on you.

can you vote kokabiel

-marci

This, on the other hand, is NOT cute at all. I fail to see how calling acquaintances to join a... RVS? vote is town behavior

Why do you think it’s scum behavior?

The vote itself isn't bad, it's the fact that she is calling other people to join it. Pushing someone without any reason is dumb and anti-town.
While anti-town doesn't necessarily mean scum, it's the best thing i have right now and getting rid of people like this in absence of better alternatives is a great move.
I decided to scumread this instead of seeing it as bad town because i doubt she would make such a blunder as town.

pUsHiNg sOMeOnE wItHoUt aNy rEaSOn iS dUmB aNd aNtI-tOwN
first off, I did have a reason although it wasn't super solid. not sharing ≠ no reason. if you really cared enough you could've asked... instead you jumped to defensive lol
second, who are you? "i doubt she would make such a blunder as town." is a personal statement that implies you know a bit about me and how i play.... but thing is i've literally done this before so what bullshit tree are you trying to plant?
i'm willing to back down, but you aren't really showing me any reason at all as to why you could be town right now. Right now how I view you is kinda survivalistic.. like in the way I think 3p would be. It looks like you're just trying to shut

me

up since it seems like you scumread only me and not luke. The fact that your only real reads are on people who've voted you isn't a good look. I think you overreacted for the amount of votes you

did

get.

S
Marci said she wanted to vote Koka because her iso was "beyond useless"

Marci please enlighten me with the amazing reads you got from pages 1-3. Luke has been doing all the lifting for you so far and i can't say i'm impressed even as a joke.

This reads snarky for...no reason..? I haven't even posted all day while being at work.. It did give me a moment of doubt ngl, but give me something to actually tr you on, anyone can do this as any alignment.
Maybe you should think about giving reads first before asking for them.

Originally I was going to vote for Flavia instead of you actually, but I thought more about it and decided it was more just playstyle differences.
Originally I didn't like froggie (for 11) but after thinking about it and talking to luke I've decided to wait a bit on that before deciding. Though is still not best vibes IMO
Bells alright so far. Penguinpowers prob alright? I like Passenger the most.
^ These don't limit only to the first few pages, though looking at it reminds me of it.

Luke is right, it just seems like you aren't trying to get a better understanding of anything.

-Marci

[The Bombay]

Not sure if Luke is being too generous here with me.

I kinda hip shot you town based off of your interaction with Furtive. It was a combo of the tone feeling right, your conclusions on furtive being identical to my own, and you also immediately spot checking the flavor to match it with the claim.

Have not really circled back to looking at you since then.

I can pretend to scum read you though it you want

[The Bombay]

My alleged "psychoanalysis" indicates Flavia is the type of player who doesn't feel confident in faking SvS interactions or making up reads on scum buddies. I think almost all of the above are Town, if not all. I also don't think Flavia has interacted with their partners very much if at all. My "pychoanalysis" extends deeper however; Flavia feels isolated and Flavia is the most active groupscum.

Frog, if you are getting the feeling that Flavia is scummy, while also getting the feeling that she feels isolated. Why is your conclusion "she is the most active groupcum" and not "she seems like 3p"?

Even looking through your post, I am not seeing much that indicates scum except for the way you worded this point:

Spoiler:

Hello everyone! I am here, ready to be a shining light against the delegation!

VOTE: DeasVail

JUST the delegation?

I am kind of thinking that StarPower appearing to not know that there is a 3rd party makes them more likely to be town.

Seriously doubt that the actual 3rd party would not be too self-conscious to frame it that way, so imo town>scum>3rd party

But mafia can't collaborate with the 3rd party in this game. Everybody losses. So, makes sense mafia would be as interested in this 3rd party as the town. Or not that interested yet as the game just started.

Insight into Flavia's point of view: they think a lot about scum win con and not much else.

But, even then, it feels like you are defaulting to a Group Scum answer, instead of considering the 3p thinking about the win state for the 3p (in which everybody losses) vs win state for the mafia (which requires the elimination of the 3p)

[The Bombay]

Hey Pengy, while I appreciate your support on the Koka wagon, before that you were voting for us.

Was there a reason behind this vote?

VOTE: Bombay

[The Bombay]

Luke head VLA until Monday

[The Bombay]

UNVOTE:

At least until Koka gets in here and explains the Advocate thing.

~Luke

[The Bombay]

I am finding Frogs and Mastinas posts to be unreadable, and I am just kind of skimming past them. Anyone else find something of note int here feel free to quote and @ me with it lol

~Luke

[The Bombay]

Koka, how does your flavor of advocate get to q moonlight dancer?

Like, in my mind an "advocate" is [someone] who is doing things for [someone or something else].

How is that getting to "you can have your own pr name revealed?"

[The Bombay]

Random or serious?

Bit late for random. I guess you want more explanation then. I think 21 comes to the conclusion that I'm trueclaiming a bit too quickly. 33 as well. Feels a bit "meh, not sure" which Bell was like as mafia in The Turing Test.

If it makes you feel better, Bell's reactions to your claim were my exact reactions too.

Bell just said I probably was telling the truth. Considering that 1) there are 2 possible reactions to my claim (townread or scumread) and 2) anyone who scumreads a Miller claim will immediately look desperate (scum motivation for townreading me), this kind of 'mindmeld' is not at all improbable. So it has far less value than a mindmeld usually has, which isn't much even then.

I was mainly responding to where you said he came to "the conclusion that I'm trueclaiming a bit too quickly." I was trying to tell you that I came to the conclusion just as fast.

But also, it was not just that he landed on your being town.

I think you probably are a miller since I don’t see much point of you coming up with that on your own.
Rather it doesn’t seem to be part of your wheel house.

Do you like to fake claim? Have you fake claimed before?

This implies thoughts about you as a player wrt claiming Miller. I agreed with those thoughts about you as a player.

There are other people that I would see a Miller claim, and call it nai. But I think you in particular are more likely to be town for it. That was the conclusion that felt good to see Bell also have
----
Also, as I said before, I also liked That he asked for your flavor. Feel like a town pov would be more inclined to investigate that.

Versus the alternative. Which is him being scum, deciding that he was just gonna town read the claim, but also (despite the town read) dig more into the claim

~Luke

[The Bombay]

I think I still want Koka to be the elim today, but need to talk it over some more with Marci. (just sent her A LOT in the hydra chat that needs responding to lol)

~Luke

[The Bombay]

I suppose it's time to come out with my modifier.
When i get modconfirmed the government receives a notification that the delegation will find out their identity during the next night phase(N2 in this case) unless i get killed.

Your role is that, you, as a

townie

, activate your ability.

And then the

3rd party

gets a mod pm, saying that the

scum team

will be informed of their identity, unless you, a

townie

, are eliminated this day phase.

Meaning, if you live, then

the scum team

gains information?

[The Bombay]

So the moon light dancer who is an advocate used an ability that does not confirm their alignment but does out "The Government" in 2 turns unless they die now.
Is the government town or scum?

Residents = town
Delegation = scum
Government = 3rd party

[The Bombay]

I also think that locktowning Bombay this early reads like possible tmi to me because while I do think Bombay is very likely town, a locktown read this early seems kind of suss.

Nancy just called Mastina scum. Nice. It sure does help when they just admit to being a scum slot.

MASTINA'S PERSONAL READSLIST (no consulting hydra heads):
LOCKTOWN:
{The Bombay, furtiveglance}

Spoiler: @Nancy

(Nancy, this is a joke. I don't actually have a read on your slot yet)

~Luke

[The Bombay]

I suppose it's time to come out with my modifier.
When i get modconfirmed the government receives a notification that the delegation will find out their identity during the next night phase(N2 in this case) unless i get killed.

Your role is that, you, as a

townie

, activate your ability.

And then the

3rd party

gets a mod pm, saying that the

scum team

will be informed of their identity, unless you, a

townie

, are eliminated this day phase.

Meaning, if you live, then

the scum team

gains information?

Given they don't get the result until Night 2, what stops the government from just... killing you tonight?

Also, if you ability only works if you live, why did you earlier describe it as:

an additional on-death trigger, and no it's sadly not a vengeful.

[The Bombay]

I didn't say anything so i could watch the votes on me and their reasonings and Catguin looked like he had an eureka moment right after i got Modconfirmed. And AFTER that he asked what the hell a moonlight dancer is.

I find it hard to believe that the 3P's reaction to getting a PM that says "if you don't get Koka killed, then you will be outed to the scum team" is to immediately naked vote you and then call you scum.

Like, even if your role is real, this is not what the 3P does immediately after getting that info.

VOTE: kokabiel

it be scum

And it would be fairly immediate, seeing as how the advocate reveal is post 256.

Pedit: The plot thickens

[The Bombay]

Roden, want to enlighten us

~Luke

[The Bombay]

It's not immediate. Penguin already scumread me even if he didn't state it. He broke character with his comments right after the announcement which is a pretty big tell. And now he is lurking because he doesn't feel pressure

Have you ever played scum before? lol

You don't just... throw yourself out there after getting a PM like that.

Even if it he knew he needed you dead, it would also be a goal for him to not look terrible when you flipped with a role that says "on Fri Nov 11, 2022 5:43 pm, the 3p player got a PM that said that your win condition now requires the death of Koka" ?

[The Bombay]

Regardless, now we just wait for Roden.

He should be able to shed more light on the situation.

[The Bombay]

Are you claiming that your role name, and not just the ability, is Advocate?

~Luke

[The Bombay]

Because the same game having one player

Flavor name: Proponent
Ability: Advocate

And another player

Flavor name: Advocate
Ability: Advocate

Feels really wrong.

If not, what is your flavor name and why did you hide it before, when I was specifically asking how your flavor lined up with your ability?

[The Bombay]

Ngl, if no one confirms roden's message, my reaction will be to assume that his target was scum. Not that Roden was scum. Even if his role did not confirm him, this entire play is dripping in towniness.

But also, doubt that happens, because that outs his target as scum, because he can just... tell us who he targeted.

So I am just skipping the waiting and living my life as though who ever his target is has already confirmed him.

[The Bombay]

@Luke

I'm not going to resort to ad hominem this game because I don't want to be that kind of player and overall I think you're playing quite well, but I think you're propensity to trust Roden right now might be the death of us all because I think Passenger/Bell/Roden is an extremely tight team solve.

You claim to scumread Passenger and Townread me but most of your ISO looks motivated to shade my slot and cause the Kookaburra wagon to go through instead of the Passenger wagon.

Frog, I think that you are not re-evaluating Roden's actions in light of his ability reveal. Roden having an Advocate ability explains his focus on Koka over Passenger.

Further more, look at how he reacted to the claim

How did you activate your ability?

This looks like it was a trap question laid by a townie with that ability. His activation phrase was "Represent Residents," and he is checking to see if Koka's also has the word Resident baked into it.

----

Then there is the question of why activate at all here, if he is scum? He is not in any danager, and Koka is already building pressure. Scum him can just... let it play out.

Then there is the question of why would he lie to add a fake clear onto himself? Like, if he is scum, then that is a pure lie. I refuse to believe that he, as scum, is risking his slot on the chance that a townie would just believe him when he sent a message saying "Play along, and confirm me as town." I also don't think that he would tie himself so strongly to a buddy. Because if he does ever die, and that is not part of his role, down goes his buddy.

This plan has so much danger with both options, with very little benefit. He gets an elim on an already scum read slot, and he either tanks himself or ties himself to a partner.

I am sure that you are going to say that he was saving Passenger, but you are world building a scum team that is putting all of their eggs in one basket, where if even one of them ever dies, the whole team goes down, which is just... not how scum play.

[The Bombay]

Then there is the question of why would he lie to add a fake clear onto himself? Like, if he is scum, then that is a pure lie

To reword, even if he is scum with passenger, trying to save passenger, then he just... does not include the self clearing part.

He says he is an advocate. He says that Koka is lying about their flavor name since his flavor name is not advocate. And he says that Koka's flavor should explain why they have an advocate, and the fact that Koka checked a wiki means their flavor looks bad.

That is already enough to kill Koka, and does not need the fake "oh, and I also IC myself" lie that can immediately fall apart. AND this version lets him walk away from it. He just says "oh... wow, I really did not think that the mod would put proponent and advocate both in the same game"

[The Bombay]

VOTE: Koka

[The Bombay]

I just attempted exactly what you're saying scum would never do and it caused my team to win the game. Please read 555 and 554 again and consider that your own skill as a scum player is causes you to make different choices than someone like Roden or I would

The issue here is that I think of Roden's playstyle as more similar to my own then to yours, but I am gonna look more at the game you just posted

[The Bombay]

Why are we considering Roden when they literally just said they would confirm themselves.

Frog is claiming that it could be a gambit where he either:

Sent it to a townie, hoping the townie would just back him up, OR sent it to his partner.

I am saying that that does not seem like something that scum!Roden would do.

[The Bombay]

Frog you have 4 posts left, so maybe hold off until after someone has or has not confirmed Roden's alignment

[The Bombay]

Y'all kids with your fancy power roles don't have an appreciation no more for good old-fashioned scum huntin'

To be clear, before Roden's PR activated, I was already scum reading Koka, so this is not really a situation of me trusting the PR stuff over the reads.

You just have a whole team solve building out from a preflip of Passenger, which is not how I look at the game at all, and therefore, hard for me to put a ton of weight to the cases you are making.

When I look at koka's play, I see scum motivation.

Like their claim started as "If you kill me something bad will happen" to " wait, you guys are going to kill me anyways, turns out I lied, and really what happens is the 3rd party is outed so long as I live"

Both halves of that claim look designed to survive then actual, real claims.

If we imagine a world where Koka is true claiming, and their role is "I activate, and so long as I live a day, then the 3p is outed" then their play makes very little sense. Why would a townie not activate that immediately at the start of day? Why would they activate it, but then not explain what it did right away? Why would they lie about how it worked entirely?

If this is Koka's town play with such an ability, then I will be kind of baffled tbh.

My bad

[The Bombay]

Frog is now out of posts, and we have not even gotten to the point where we get to see who is the person who confirms roden

[The Bombay]

I’m catching up.

Same

Either of you get a mod pm about Roden?

[The Bombay]

UNVOTE:

Roden might need to claim their target then, not even sure who has not checked in at this point.

[The Bombay]

Either of you get a mod pm about Roden?

No?

For reference

the secondary effect from my ability let's me send a message to my target mod-confirming me as town. I'd like for this player to announce this, please.

[The Bombay]

@Mod, did Roden send a message to ANYONE?

It sounds like he’s claiming some day version of friendly neighbour.

Also

@mod can you prod Flavia?

@Bell, it’s possible but it’s more likely he didn’t send it. Mod needs to clarify this asap.

~Nancy

In what game ever has a mod been able to just... publicly confirm that someone used their PR? lol

[The Bombay]

I have a theory, but it is best to just let Roden answer atp.

[The Bombay]

I have a theory, but it is best to just let Roden answer atp.

For the record, my theory here was exactly that frog was the target for the message and then did not confirm lmao

[The Bombay]

I don't really think that's a fair question to ask of the mod

(@nancy)

Alright then you and furtive can tell me if what Frogs claimed qualifies as bastard or not? I’m not good at mech, so anyone who is, tell me.

Luke should know. I’ll probably sheep Bombay on this.

~Nancy

First, let's assume his informed claim is true

Something like "there is a gunsmith out there that can get false guilties on a vigilante or a false inno on a scum doctor" would not be bastard.

Something like "the mod will send you a pm saying that player X is town, when they are not in fact town" should be.

[The Bombay]

I'm unsure whether one scum is YOLOing, one town is *throwing* or if the Government is a type of Jester. The Gov didn't sound like a Jester though.

He's not throwing scum by the way: he's gambiting in order to redirect the wagon off of Passenger and to potentially get a mislim on me. Most likely Roden's role provides utility to the scum team and Roden himself is no longer needed to be alive after his abilities activation, whereas scum need Passenger alive in order to activate his ability at night.

Frog, to be clear, I read this post, and I just strongly disagree.

This implies he is killing his slot, and killing his partner slot, just to activate each of their PRs once on the hope that their other partner can end game.

No one plays that way.

[The Bombay]

If anyone actually believes I publicly telegraph saving scum buddy Passenger in order to auto lose by Day 3 for literally no reason, I'm kind of at a loss for words

Did you see my question about scum!Frog's motivation to lie? Surely they could just confirm you and Passenger would get voted

I can link you to a game where catboi was in a hood with frog, and in that hood catboi claimed to be an IC that would be revealed the following day.

Frog did not believe him, and killed him that night. Frog was town, and killed a claimed IC, because his read was just that strong.

When catboi died, and flipped as an IC, frog's response was to say that catboi must be a scum!changeling that just *flipped* as a town IC.

Until someone can confirm to me that role-changers are illegal in large themes, I believe catboi is a one-shot changeling-type role

On the surface, this looks eerily like that situation to me.

Town frog got convinced that Roden was scum. And then was so convinced, that even mod-confirmed information was not enough to change his mind.

[The Bombay]

VOTE: Koka

[The Bombay]

The mod confirmed that "being informed that there is at least one role that provides misleading results" is not bastard.

That confirmation says nothing about Roden.

"Misleading results" almost certainly means something like a gunsmith type role which can pull false innos/guilties

Not mod lies

[The Bombay]

If Luke is Town then this is strike two for me as far as Town play is concerned. I came into this game with an open mind and what I'm learning is that Town!Luke has <rand reads because they Townread people who kiss their butt, which scum are more likely to do.

The funny thing is that I am actually pretty happy with my play in the exact game you are referencing. I was actively pushing for the elimination of 4 out of 5 of the scum to die the day that they died. Which I certainly value over the day 1 hero solve approach.

Malcolm is the only scum who truly bamboozled me that game.

Like, yes, I was wrong on *you* but :shrug:

[The Bombay]

Is there some reason frog has gone over the post limit

There is a 25 post buffer, shared across all days, for going over the post limit.

And he thought it necessary to spend one of those to outline just how bad he thinks I am because my reads are not the same as his.

[The Bombay]

So either Roden or Frogster is lying.
Why aren't we killing one of them.

If we are killing one of them, I would kill frog. I am pretty sure that roden is town here.

I am fairly worried that Frog is town lying because of his informed ability making him doubt the message contents. And since he wants us to kill roden anyways, he is claiming it never came.

I think that Koka is scum.

[The Bombay]

I decided only to partially claim my role today:

#1 I'm informed that at least one player has a role which gets misleading results.

I already claimed it earlier before Roden claimed. I assumed it was referring to an investigative, but I was jumping to conclusions, I doublechecked my role PM just now because I was getting suspicious, and below is the exact wording:

MY ROLE IS INFORMED FYI IN CASE ANYONE MISSED ME CLAIM IT:

INFORMED: AT LEAST ONE ROLE PROVIDES A MISLEADING RESULT

I WONDER IF THAT HAS ANYTHING TO DO WITH HOW RODEN'S ROLE WORKS...

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

At least one player has a role who

PROVIDES

a misleasing result. I wonder what kind of mod given information Roden may have

PROVIDED

to someone with his

ROLE

via a

PRIVATE MESSAGE

. I wonder if Roden has a

SCUM PR

with the ability to

MISLEAD

as you now know

THERE IS AT LEAST ONE ROLE IN THIS GAME WHICH PROVIDES MISLEADING RESULTS

Like, he thinks this about Roden's role claim, has his informed status, gets the PM. I can see that leading to him doing this as town.

[The Bombay]

My experience with Luke in Lost was that he lacked any ability to Townread me whatsoever, so unfortunately it's in his Townrange to believe I'm scum to a level of delusion which equals my own delusion that catboi was scum in KTANE.

I am not arguing that you are scum.

[The Bombay]

My experience with Luke in Lost was that he lacked any ability to Townread me whatsoever, so unfortunately it's in his Townrange to believe I'm scum to a level of delusion which equals my own delusion that catboi was scum in KTANE.

I am not arguing that you are scum.

I also had you down as town in KTANE in my reads list right before I replaced out

You seem to be letting me [incorrectly scum reading you, really strongly, one time] color your entire view of me quite a bit.

Which... you do you I guess

[The Bombay]

Frog, I don't think that you actually care what my reasons are for my reads, and I have already put them out there, so I think I will just nor respond anymore and hope that enough other people log on and come to the same conclusion as I did, that Roden just... never does this as scum.

But I have to say that you sorting from a PoV of whether or not I have the same reads as you, or am willing to listen to your reads, is flawed, because

1)You and I think about games so differently that it feels like our conclusions are fairly alien to one another and
2)Even though I think you are town, I don't find your cases very compelling (likely in part because of the above)

[The Bombay]

Final thoughts on the Roden Vs Frog thing.

~Roden is always town.

That leaves 2 worlds.

Frog is also town. In which case I want to kill Koka.

OR

Frog is scum. If we are living in that world, Frog's play for the back half of the day seems hell bent on saving Koka. And therefore I still want to kill Koka first.

[The Bombay]

Like, here is Frog's path on Koka:

Koka is town because of he thinks Flavia is scum, and is preflipping Flavia to clear Koka (197)
Koka is town because of he thinks Passenger is scum, and is preflipping Passenger to clear Koka (252)
Koka is town because he doesn't trust Roden and Bell (459)

Each time he has explained a reason to think Koka is town, it has been because of preflipping his scum reads, BUT it literally did not matter who his scum reads were. It always landed on Koka town.

Despite that he has jumped on Herta for voting Koka (270)
Bell for voting Koka (441)
Roden for voting Koka (562)
Me for voting Koka (repeatedly)

I found 562 interesting

Spoiler:

VOTE: kokabiel

Spoiler:

[/sp/oiler]

-Marci

Awww how cute~

can you vote kokabiel

-marci

This, on the other hand, is NOT cute at all. I fail to see how calling acquaintances to join a... RVS? vote is town behavior.
I doubt scum would blatantly call their buddies like this so thats one association down.

Why didn’t you ask me?

can you vote kokabiel?

Yuck. Can totes see this as a scum theater.

The scumminess in this post's tone is out of this world lmao. This is how you scum post when you want to appear like you don't care about getting scum read, the confidence is just too misplaced.

VOTE: Kokabiel

Roden making up a motive to vote Kookaburra "the scumminess is out of this world." Trying to discredit an obtown player for bad reason

Because now Koka is obvtown, despite his reason for town reading them at all points prior to this to have been because of preflips.

And finally, frog did not go off the rails until Roden activated his ability, claimed his role, and then explained why we should then kill Koka.

Like, here is frog's last post before the Roden reveal. Compare that to every thing he has done since

I decided only to partially claim my role today:

#1 I'm informed that at least one player has a role which gets misleading results.

#2 Protectives don't go on me. I'm paranoid this advice won't get followed.

__

#3 Scum team read is

moderate

certainty:

Passenger/Roden/Bell

Government reads are

low

certainty:

2nd choice Flavia (my case applied to gov instead of groupscum), 1st choice Penguin (Kookaburra's theory)

I townread everyone not mentioned above except for Johnny, who I null read. If I die we're Probably Gonna be Okay

He was level headed, and reasonable appearing.

And his play has done nothing but spiral since that happened.

Even if Frog is scum, he is trying desperately to keep Koka alive, so we... probably should not keep Koka alive in that world either.

[The Bombay]

I'm an Advocate for the Community itself, meant to bring attention of our plight to the wider world. I reveal my alignment to the Government because flavor-wise I become a political target.

Koka, how does your flavor of advocate get to q moonlight dancer?

Like, in my mind an "advocate" is [someone] who is doing things for [someone or something else].

How is that getting to "you can have your own pr name revealed?"

I pm the mod "Represent Residents" and the mod confirms my role in the main thread.
It makes sense since an advocate is "a person who publicly supports or recommends a particular cause or policy." according to wiki

Another point that I thought about Roden v Koka was that when comparing the two of these, one reads like they got a mod description of their role flavor that they are sharing to the thread, and one looks like they are making up an explanation (even looking things up on a wiki to make sure it makes sense).

[The Bombay]

Morning Tweet replaces Frogsterking. Please welcome her!

Hey!

Can you confirm if you received a mod pm about Roden?

[The Bombay]

[The Bombay]

No. We’re literally just going to wait because a friendly neighbor hybrid is too big of an advantage to squander.
Morning tweet needs to be specific about how it was written and if they received it. Almost anything else is just guessing.

Yeah. I am just glad we dont actually have a timer counting down right now

(since Flavia is also getting replaced)

~Luke

[The Bombay]

Unexpected.

[The Bombay]

My role name is Advocate. It's role is Advocate i'm assuming because an Advocate advocates. And when i pm the mod he confirms that i'm an advocate which is my role name.

But what is your ability? I am assuming it is not advocate as well.

One would think that

Are you claiming that your role name, and not just the ability, is Advocate?

~Luke

Because the same game having one player

Flavor name: Proponent
Ability: Advocate

And another player

Flavor name: Advocate
Ability: Advocate

Feels really wrong.

If not, what is your flavor name and why did you hide it before, when I was specifically asking how your flavor lined up with your ability?

My role name is Advocate. It's role is Advocate i'm assuming because an Advocate advocates. And when i pm the mod he confirms that i'm an advocate which is my role name.

[The Bombay]

I saw all of that but I'm not satisfied because that makes no sense

Agreed, and my conclusion is that they are...

Spoiler:

lying

[The Bombay]

I am like so incredibly sure that Koka is scum here.

[The Bombay]

Roden still didn't confirm to me

Yeah. I saw your post.

And I am not 100% sure what to make of that tbh.

I was pretty sure that Koka was scum before Roden even activated his Advocate ability, and I wanted it before that even happened.

[The Bombay]

I'm an Advocate for the Community itself, meant to bring attention of our plight to the wider world. I reveal my alignment to the Government because flavor-wise I become a political target.

Koka, how does your flavor of advocate get to q moonlight dancer?

Like, in my mind an "advocate" is [someone] who is doing things for [someone or something else].

How is that getting to "you can have your own pr name revealed?"

I pm the mod "Represent Residents" and the mod confirms my role in the main thread.
It makes sense since an advocate is "a person who publicly supports or recommends a particular cause or policy." according to wiki

Another point that I thought about Roden v Koka was that when comparing the two of these, one reads like they got a mod description of their role flavor that they are sharing to the thread, and one looks like they are making up an explanation (even looking things up on a wiki to make sure it makes sense).

Roden could be bending the flavour in their scum lore. But I can follow your reasoning.

I don't follow why Koka needs to make up an explanation when they're both confirmed to be Advocates. They both can read from their PMs here
. t

My guess was that the flavor read as "bad guy."

"You the Advocate for the delegation, the chosen legal counsel to argue on behalf of their agenda. Doing so will make you a political target"

Kind of thing. And because of the delegation flavor baked in, Koka had to make up an answer to my question that did not out themselves, so went to a wiki to try to make a plausible explanation that didn't do that. (While also, not expecting there to be another advocate out there to call them out for it.)

~Luke

[The Bombay]

I would actually be kind of surprised if "it will make you a political target" was not common to their role pms, seeing as both have claimed that their ability outs their role to the thread and additional information to the government.

But Koka did not say anything like that when asked

[The Bombay]

I disagree.. describing it as a moonlight dancer makes a lot of sense. Your question of "how did you get to moonlight dancer from advocate" doesn't make sense to me.

Why would Koka need to answer as to why they described it as a moonlight dancer rather than as an "Advocate for the people" or whatever

I am not sure you understood what I was trying to say. Calling her role ability a moonlight dancer is accurate.

My question was how her flavor name lined up with her getting that ability. Basically, asking her to describe her role flavor to me.

Her explanation relied on a wiki, whereas roden's explanation was "as an advocate I will become a politcal target" ie being an advocate = a moonlight dancer ability.

[The Bombay]

so

roden claims advocate
koka claims advocate
both of them got mod confirmed as an advocate, but they disagree on role flavor/text/details(?) how is this an issue if they both got mod confirmed to have the advocate role? clearly it is in both of their role PMs, what does it matter if koka was trying to be tricky and fish for the 3p?

but roden also is a friendly neighbor who sent a message to morning tweet, and morning tweet didn't get it?

Am I misunderstanding any of this? Because if I'm not, you just kill roden for being in conflict with 2 slots, right? Assuming the first conflict even makes sense because it doesn't to me, and if the first conflict isn't even real then you can kill in roden/morning tweet, but tweet has 0 votes. ??? what is going on

Order of operations:

Koka was being kinda scummy, and started getting some pressure.

Koka activated their advocate ability, and the mod posted they were an advocate, and Koka claimed

It's a Moonlight dancer with an additional on-death trigger, and no it's sadly not a vengeful.

Because koka was still kinda scummy, they got some more votes. And Koka then revealed that they lied when they said that they had "an additional on-death trigger" like, they have completely dropped that, and instead changed their claim to be

When i get modconfirmed the government receives a notification that the delegation will find out their identity during the next night phase(N2 in this case) unless i get killed.

The way their claim shifted from "if you kill me something bad will happen, so don't kill me" to "if you let me live, the 3p will lose, so don't kill me" made it seem to me like both of those were lies just hoping to survive.

At the same time, I ask them to explain their flavor to me, and in order to answer, they had to reference a wiki instead of their own role pm.
----

After all of this, with Koka already in a fairly bad spot, and Roden with 0 votes, Roden activated his Advocate ability.

He claims to have done so because he feels like Koka is scum who messed up their claim, and based on his own Advocate role pm, he is sure that Koka is scum.

The issues he outlines were:
-Koka claimed that their role name is Advocate, BUT that is not how his Role PM worked. His role name is Proponent and his ability is Advocate. So he thinks that Koka is lying about their role name.

-He also claimed that his role PM made it very clear why his flavor did the thing that it does, and so Koka looked like they were lying about their flavor.

-------

Looking at these two, Koka looks way more like scum.

Like for Koka: they claimed while under pressure, lied about their claim to discourage their elimination, and then changed their claim to a new claim to discourage their elimination. Additionally, their current claim is that their ability just... outs the 3p. But then they just... did not use that ability until after they were under pressure... for some reason.

And Roden: claimed while under zero pressure, in order to reveal "evidence" that Koka was scum, when Koka was already a leading wagon. So he could have just... not done that lol. His actions line up more with someone thinking they have caught scum then with scum entering into a forced 1v1 for seemingly no reason.

[The Bombay]

I will also say that Koka's role, as currently claimed, is actually pretty bad game design.

The claim: I active my ability, the entire thread is told that I have activated my ability, so long as I live to day 2, the 3p (functionally) LOSES THE GAME

That is a pretty fucked up thing to throw at the 3p, and I don't even know what the 3p could do about such an ability if Koka had activated at the start of the day, and then said "If there is a protective out there, it better be on me tonight, can't say more until tomorrow"

[The Bombay]

Koka was being kinda scummy, and started getting some pressure.

Koka activated their advocate ability, and the mod posted they were an advocate, and Koka claimed

It's a Moonlight dancer with an additional on-death trigger, and no it's sadly not a vengeful.

Because koka was still kinda scummy, they got some more votes. And Koka then revealed that they lied when they said that they had "an additional on-death trigger" like,

they have completely dropped that, and instead changed their claim to be

When i get modconfirmed the government receives a notification that the delegation will find out their identity during the next night phase(N2 in this case) unless i get killed.

The way their claim shifted from "if you kill me something bad will happen, so don't kill me" to "if you let me live, the 3p will lose, so don't kill me" made it seem to me like both of those were lies just hoping to survive.

What do you mean that Koka lied about the additional on-death trigger? That's the SK thing, no? All of the bolded doesn't accurately describe what happened as far as i can tell

Their current claim is that something happens if they live until Day 2. That is demonstrably not an "on death trigger"

But you don't even have to take my word for it when I say that the first claim was a lie. They admitted that they lied with their first claim

Also, if you ability only works if you live, why did you earlier describe it as:

an additional on-death trigger, and no it's sadly not a vengeful.

I wanted to spite you all for a bit without going anti-win condition. My flip would just inform you that government needs to kill me to not get outed instead of me just telling you verbally.

[The Bombay]

I don't see where this occured. The on-death effect didn't come off as a "don't kill me", and neither did the SK-baiting part. Scum throwing shit at the wall to see what sticks maybe but 'lies hoping to survive' is way too far.

If you don't see how

"If you guys kll me something will trigger - not telling you what it is tho"
and
"If you let me live, the 3p will lose"

Can be attempts to survive, without them literally saying "

and because of the pr I just claimed, I should not be killed right now

," I don't know what to tell you.

[The Bombay]

I'm down to kill a botched claim, how long do we have until DL? Is it unfrozen now that i replaced in?

Mod said that he would add 12 hours after the replacements were found.

[The Bombay]

Just as an aside, because I want to kill Koka still, but as a "just in case I don't make it to tomorrow"

Tweetie's posting has felt fairly motivated to try and find a way to poke around to find a way to reframe everything about Koka. Which I also felt from Frog. Which leave me feeling like that slot has an agenda different then my own.

I retract my town read of the slot.

I have no idea if it makes sense with a 3p out there, but I almost feel like the slot is a traitor for the delegation. Feels unlikely that a partner would actually go as hard as frog did and the 3p would actually be that motivated to save Koka, regardless of koka's alignment

[The Bombay]

Basically it feels unlikely that town frog and town tweetie would independently of one another both end up approaching the discussion from that direction.

It also seems unlikely that a partner would go that hard for another partner that botched their claim, and would just cut their losses.

It also seems unlikely that the 3p would be as invested as frog was in saving Koka, regardless of Koka's alignment.

Which leaves me in a weird position of thinking about other possibilities outside of those three. Or else there is some other piece of infomation that we are missing here. Maybe the flips enlighten us.

[The Bombay]

I think the first characterization is a stretch, the second is plausible I suppose.

They literally compared it to being vengeful, but not actually vengeful at first.

It sure read like an indication that "the thing that happens when I die is bad" to me.

[The Bombay]

Just as an aside, because I want to kill Koka still, but as a "just in case I don't make it to tomorrow"

Tweetie's posting has felt fairly motivated to try and find a way to poke around to find a way to reframe everything about Koka. Which I also felt from Frog. Which leave me feeling like that slot has an agenda different then my own.

I retract my town read of the slot.

I have no idea if it makes sense with a 3p out there, but I almost feel like the slot is a traitor for the delegation. Feels unlikely that a partner would actually go as hard as frog did and the 3p would actually be that motivated to save Koka, regardless of koka's alignment

I find it difficult to believe both Koka and Roden are scum. Put yourself in my shoes for a bit. Roden's claim is confirmed as untrue to me so there's a large chance there's a hole in the Koka case. Roden's reasons for Koka being scum were not compelling to me either.

I am just saying that it really stood out that your entrance to the thread (other then countering Roden's assertion) was

Koke's role sounds real

I don't think withholding how it works fully really necessarily is proscum, its more about how you wanna play it

This sounds like Kokabiel was using it to fish for the government agent, which seems like the intended use of the role

And then repeatedly countering all points against her.

It made it feel like you joined the thread already motivated to see if she could be saved.

But okay.

I am down to take stock tomorrow after seeing Koka's flip, because I feel like that will give us more info on who would or would not be willing to try to save the slot.

[The Bombay]

Day 1 Count X

Passenger (1) - Andresvmb

Not Voting

- furtiveglance, Passenger, N.Y. M

The

Day

concludes in (expired on 2022-11-18 07:50:00).

[/mech][/mech]

So uh....

@Andres
@furtive
@passenger
@NYM

we are down to 6 hours.

Please put your vote on one of them

[The Bombay]

VOTE: kokabiel

Ok, whatever. You're not my real dad.

This is 6 votes

Kokabiel (6) - Roden, DeasVail, PenguinPower, The Bombay, Bell, JohnnyFarrar, Scarfmanship

We are still 2 short of a hammer on Koka

[The Bombay]

<3

don't know which head you are but

<3

Luke

Marci has not posted since like 168

Jesus Christ

[The Bombay]

I don't think Kokabiel was the right choice really, Roden seemed to be in the middle of 2 1v1s but I wasn't around to say that so my bad.

ngl, 933 read to me like post hammer scum claim, so I will not be accepting your apology at this time lol