House of the Dragon - Game Over!

[VP Baltar]

What up psychos! I'll read this game later, but we all know VOTE: datisi for justice.

[VP Baltar]

andante twon yes?

Maybe. I'm not minding the votes at the very least.

I considered voting andante king, but andante is also LOL loose cannon sometimes as town, so idk.

Still catching up, but also making a note if dann ever flips scum, there was probably a coordinated effort by scum in the king nominations. The dann is boring/rationale, ergo king logic is a little flimsy for my taste given idk if he had even posted yet at that point?

I kind of liked mastina's post, but they're like good and shit

[VP Baltar]

i have a very silly and probably very wrong reason to townread baltar

now I get the feeling that Andante is town cuz I can see where they are coming from, and UNO could be mafia spotting LHF?

Carrots are good for putting in holes.
Hi we haven't played together. Do you usually just shitpost in games?


They also grew in one.

[VP Baltar]

Classic MS working real well

[VP Baltar]

Carrots are good for putting in holes.



They also grew in one.

Hi, we haven't played together. Do you usually shitpost as town?

[VP Baltar]

so i think at the very least, those two would be able to tell the difference, even if there is nobody else immediately familiar with it.

And you want us to put you through that again?

[VP Baltar]

I think I should be king because I'm old

[VP Baltar]

This is why i want a middle management position.
Warden of the South and Master of Coin.
How bad can i fuck those things up

What do you think of Andante's argument saying scum are more likely to want those spots?

[VP Baltar]

right now I'm feeling Dann and Datisi are okay

What about dann specifically gives you good vibes?

[VP Baltar]

I agree with andante. Idg the dann townread.

[VP Baltar]

watching house of the dragon for first time now. will post my reviews of each episode.

Maximum incest. 10/10

[VP Baltar]

I agree with andante. Idg the dann townread.

so you both sscumread dann then?

I don't scum read dann. I'm a little suss of the outpouring of support before he did anything notable in the game, but whatever on that. He could be town who is a safe choice for scum to hide behind and get in support positions.

[VP Baltar]

@baltar, how come you did not comment anything about me yet?

Just watching you for now to see if I can catch a vibe.

If you want to talk though, whyd you town ping me?

[VP Baltar]

If you want to talk though, whyd you town ping me?

you usually rvs vote to yeet me

you also rvs voted me here

but we're not voting to yeet, we're voting for kinging

does baltar not know what we are voting for?

so he probably doesn't have access to a scum pt where they probably talked about it

I actually thought this was your reasoning, so that's probably good.

Fwiw, yes I had not read the rules. I might be chill with you king if I can get to feeling good about you D1 (which is a challenge probably because I'll get paranoid soon)

[VP Baltar]

Call me a dumbass.

Ok

Just post normally and save us the hysterics though for real.

[VP Baltar]

So, feeling less like my original thought was actually valid.

I actually don't think your point about IC is terrible. Wouldn't being king put you in Elo potentially too?

[VP Baltar]

UNVOTE: datisi
VOTE: dwlee

[VP Baltar]

lukewarm and baltar are overlooking the key difference between guardians and this game - an ic is always going to be a townie, the question is just whether it's gonna be me or another townie. here, king isn't guaranteed to be town. i know i'm town.

---

In post 200, VP Baltar wrote:
VOTE: dwlee

why dwlee? i was starting to feel they're kinda scummy

On the IC part, idk, feels like you're splitting hairs. King is going to be a lot of responsibility I assume, and the feeling seems like it would be similar since, as you confirm, you know you're town.

Are you advocating for yourself to be king now seriously?

On dwlee, voted there because I felt like it. I don't have a scummy vibe there at this point, and I think it's pretty unlikely I follow Mastina's proposal.

[VP Baltar]

"townread him if he does not do something that i know scum-him would do"

What did I not do that you were expecting if I was scum?

[VP Baltar]

Also, I’m like offended mastina doesn’t think I’m competent enough to be King. Not that I want it, mind you - but definitely offended.

Why don't you want it?

I'd think town andres would see the utility in being king, and is a logically stable player who would be a benefit to the town.

Fmpov, the determining criteria for a king should probably be:

-towniness
-reliability
-willingness to adjust opinions based upon feedback from the town when necessary.

Andante is pretty obv town, but probably fails in the other two criteria so I can't vote there. Was hoping maybe andres might fulfill these notes, but I guess not.

[VP Baltar]

Still catching up, but also making a note if dann ever flips scum, there was probably a coordinated effort by scum in the king nominations. The dann is boring/rationale, ergo king logic is a little flimsy for my taste given idk if he had even posted yet at that point?

I have a hard time imagining you think this would be an actual scum strategy ??

Why exactly do you think it wouldn't be a strategy? Seems very safe from hard criticism/can be played off and is worth a shot.

[VP Baltar]

and eliminate any King that goes rogue.

I'll admit I haven't spent much time reading the rules (but I will at some point)... I thought the king can't be limmed if the kingsguard is town or whatever?

Thought someone said that

[VP Baltar]

On face everyone will agree a townie needs to be king, but actions aren't lining up with intent. We're on path to select a king from the most active most friendly face, I think, which is likely to be a recipe for disaster.

Don't think I agree that's the path we are on. I appreciate your urgency, but also think you're trying to control the outcome a little bit...plus UNOwen as king seems kind of LOL, frankly.

[VP Baltar]

To be clear. The choice of King or Queen is important. I think the Scum have an important incentive to take control of the role. I think a King or Queen playing optimally should want to devolve power to more players, layered with their own personal views,

King shit right here. Andres might be town?

[VP Baltar]

VP lacks reads too.

Not really true. No one has asked me about my reads, though I'm always happy to give reads when asked or I feel confident about something.

I'd probably townbin andante and andres at this point. Dann and datisi are maybe in town lean territory for me. Dwlee I could see as town who hasn't had a real chance to engage yet.

You and mastina are maybe giving me slightly bad vibes, but that could be my internal objections to anyone trying too hard to shape the day.

Off the top of my head, I think I would null pile everyone else.

[VP Baltar]

Like, fuck, your stance being more explainable as you not knowing VPB and giving him the benefit of the doubt is way more likely than your stancing being "I know this player is experienced and competent but I think that they're just lost and confused and sidelining and asking questions".

Fwiw, I didn't take andres' comment as saying I was any of those things.

I'm neither lost, confused or sidelining. I simply have spent my mafia time engaging with people rather than researching optimal mech strategy. Do you think that makes me confused and sidelining?

[VP Baltar]

And btw, if you’re giving this really wish washy view (I don’t know whether they’re Town or Scum) I’m amazed you’re this offended about me arguing that I have them as Slight Town. Yeah they’re experienced. But I wouldn’t actually agree that they’re difficult to read when Scum. I mean they had me fooled for half of a game as Scum, and then I teased them out. Otherwise, I think I have been able to read them relatively well. I don’t know if VPB would agree or disagree.

I'd probably put you in the same category as datisi where I think you've played with me enough that you'll get a bad vibe from me if I'm scum.

Idk if my meta is really clear, but people who have lots of experience with me tend to have better than average ability to scumhunt me on nuances I do not understand all the time.

[VP Baltar]

Don't think I agree that's the path we are on. I appreciate your urgency, but also think you're trying to control the outcome a little bit...

plus UNOwen as king seems kind of LOL

, frankly.

Explain this slander?

I really have no read on you and I don't see how anyone could at this point unless they are like the UNOwen whisperer. Which, maybe LLD is, but I haven't seen anything compelling to call you town and you're maybe kind of faffing off a bit.

Open to being convinced otherwise. Why should you be the monarch?

[VP Baltar]

This is a slimy post. The accusation of "not having reads" is very rarely a literal claim that you don't have reads on people, but rather that you don't seem to be trying to acquire them.

I think you've played enough mafia to know that generally its not strong town play to just sit around thinking things and then not sharing them until someone explicitly asks for you to.

I think you've played enough games with me to know I post what i feel like and rarely post every single read or thought i have in the thread. I think it's a pretty vacant thought within like 24 hours of a game starting to be like "X Player doesn't have reads!" without even asking for said reads.

I very frequently form reads on people and think about them before I post them in thread. I don't think this is unusual at all.

[VP Baltar]

It mirrors exactly my thoughts about why I think LLD would be a bad king. She's obviously incredibly good at mafia, and incredibly good as both alignments, so while I trust her reads if she's town, I know from first hand experience that she could probably dayvig an innocent child in public in a lot of games and still live another 3 game days. I want a king who I can more easily hold accountable if they do anti town shit.

Do you think LLD should be kept off the small council too?

[VP Baltar]

vp baltar is a bad vote

why's that exactly? (also, I don't think there is any chance I get consensus king read on D1, so a bit weird you'd waste a post on this)

[VP Baltar]

I agree that LLD wants to control who gets the crown but does not want it herself, but I also kind of think thats how LLD would approach it as either alignment.

She wants on the small council. I think that's very clear and something we should probably avoid.

[VP Baltar]

idk I think if you think about it for a little longer I don't know why scum strategy would ever involve hard boosting a buddy who hasn't posted yet. like I don't think this is something scum players ever actually would think about, think is a good idea, and do

never played with me as scum lol.

Being bullish with the right group of scum is both fun and effective. See KTANE where I took tons of risk being in the hot seat and got two scum defusals almost immediately in that game. Didn't pan out in the end, but that's Datisi's fault obv.

[VP Baltar]

I'd probably townbin andante and andres at this point. Dann and

datisi are maybe in town lean territory for me

. Dwlee I could see as town who hasn't had a real chance to engage yet.

can i get a why on the bolded?

actually was just thinking maybe you're pocketing me now, so hold that thought.

I liked your that your intuition on me not reading the mech matched up with where i thought you were heading, and I think your defusal of dann-andante is +town, because if I was scum, I'd absolutely be pushing that to be a shitshow of misunderstanding.

Datisi reading me correctly early though does give me tinfoil and I don't think think I'd want you as king at this time.

[VP Baltar]

I guess what I’m saying is that I’m confused as to what benefit LLD is deriving from pushing certain slots in the way that they are.

This is a fair paranoia and vibes with where I'm at trying to figure out LLD. I have a pretty natural aversion to people openly seeking power, so the bully play doesn't make a lot of sense to me as scum.

I do think part of my bad vibes are based in LLD giving pretty uncharitable reads of yours and others' statements so far.

If I had to guess, LLD doesn't care about being king but does want to be seen as a good strategist who would be useful on the small council. I need to separate myself from my natural aversion to the bully approach to the game and see if I actually find LLD's control complex scummy or not.

pedit -- has it actually blown up in your face datisi? I think you used that strat to some success in that one game you snowed me if my memory isn't complete swiss cheese.

[VP Baltar]

I'd probably townbin andante and andres at this point. Dann and datisi are maybe in town lean territory for me. Dwlee I could see as town who hasn't had a real chance to engage yet.

Um... if these are your reads, why are you voting for dwlee?

living my life. shooting my shot.

Just wanted to move it for funsies before I went to bed last night. it didn't generate much interesting.

I do have a for real for real vote coming up after I finish my catch up though.

[VP Baltar]

UNVOTE: dwlee
VOTE: andres

Sorry andres, you're the first person to fit my criteria for king. I think I'm unlikely to change my vote unless someone really wows me at this point.

Andres is very clearly town here and would be a good king because he is thinking through his positions clearly and listening to others.

[VP Baltar]

why do you want mastina to be king, rhae?

Because she is a competent scumhunter, and also because I know her best, and also because I think she and I can work well together, and also because I want the Hand of the King position.

bad bad bad
can't even keep my vote on you for memes anymore
VOTE: Datisi

Andres is a better, less risky vote.

[VP Baltar]

pedit -- has it actually blown up in your face datisi? I think you used that strat to some success in that one game you snowed me if my memory isn't complete swiss cheese.

ok, bad news - viewtopic.php?p=12600763#p12600763 - that is the closest thing i can find that constitutes as you having a bad reaction to a townread from scum-me

i did read a bit of our relevant dual isos in the go large theme (lol, hipshots), and i was not townreading you there actually, i was actually spewing some nonsense on why i was paranoid of you because ??? idfk lmao

and my early read on you in frienemies was also a scumread

so, what did we learn:

(1) source for 515: i made it the fuck up

(2) i was so traumatized by baltar saying "we are in uncharted territory here" in mini 2195 that i decided to always scumread him early as scum, and therefore i am locktown this game because i towread him early

tl;dr - scumfuck trying to cute their way out of this one. GOT IT UNCHARTED TERRITORY

[VP Baltar]

And do you know what I do to such beans? I oppose them, purely out of spite. Screw your kind and shoving your personal opinion down our throats like it's the only one that matters!

You trying to look intimidating, but no one cares.

I assume Rhaenyra is leaning into the role play by being as ineffective at controlling the Iron Throne as her character on the show.

Echant, you should vote andres as king. He would be wise.

[VP Baltar]

I think Rhaenyra is probably scum trying to burn through their posts so they don't have to participate later today. Prove me wrong by not posting.

[VP Baltar]

LLD, are you opposed to andres king?

[VP Baltar]

wasn't there one game andres was scum in not that long ago? I should probably glance at that to check myself. Help me out datisi since your the encyclopedia of mafia

[VP Baltar]

wasn't there one game andres was scum in not that long ago? I should probably glance at that to check myself. Help me out datisi since your the encyclopedia of mafia

at your service

viewtopic.php?t=88600

Thanks. Feel like your D1 read of andres here was better than mine that game actually. Also, andres' WIM was very high that game due to him actually rolling scum for a change.

I *think* I'm still right in my andres town read. He is a bit more opportunistic as scum, trying to get into shit fights a bit and taking less logical/reasonable approaches to the game. He also kind of lurked D1 that game until things were more settled, which might have been his scum instinct this game during the mech phase potentially (though I could see him motivated to mix it up if he had a good engaged scum team).

[VP Baltar]

Rhaenya is town. Nothing to discuss there

Actually would like to hear more on this. I don't think I have experience with Yume, and I have a bad tendency to want to just remove players from the game if their playstyles annoy me.


I'm also curious on what you're saying about LLD and Shea. Can I get some kind of gut read out of you on each of those slots since you're a little rambling in your thoughts post.

As far as no one having a scum read on you, I personally think you're a hard player to read because you're always chill. My gut kind of says town but I don't think I have enough experience with your meta to just trust that.

[VP Baltar]

You seem to think my opinion is the worst opinipn imaginable, so do tell me why.

Not addressed to me, but the problem isnt your opinion about mastina. Multiple people have said that. Its that you complain (alot) about not getting your way and wasted no less than 30 of your posts and probably many other people's griping about it. I'm not a person who worries about post restrictions, but you're wasting a lot of real estate in a large over nonsense and making it harder for the less active players to participate.

It's to the point where it seems like you're intentionally spamming the thread. If you're town, cool off and move on.

(No, I won't be responding to any empty complaints about this because im not contributingto this cycle. Just take it as some impartial advice.)

[VP Baltar]

Master of coin do be baller tho

[VP Baltar]

Titus, you going to play this game when?

[VP Baltar]

Andante, I think at some point today I'll try to make a full list of players so we can start to work through some of this jam. I do agree that those 9 need to contribute more this IRL day to help if they are town.

How do you feel about andres?

[VP Baltar]

Most hilariously, they also call people scum for voting self.

Did someone call you scum for self voting?


@andante - it's fine if you scum read me. I'll protect you from yourself

[VP Baltar]

@baltar, no thoughts on my andres thoughts?

Oh I have thoughts, but he should respond first don't you think?

[VP Baltar]

Hi what have I missed

We need your ideas for who should be king and who should never have power in this game.

[VP Baltar]

Skip the TSQ/Rhaenyra debate about whether Mastina should be monarch. Not worth your time.

[VP Baltar]

I could vote Andante I think she's town

I think andante is town. You think she's better Queen or on counsel. Like maybe Queen makes some sense because it really might be less power than the council.

Anyone you'd like to see in any of the other PRs specifically?

[VP Baltar]

There's more than monarch and council? I'd prefer andante monarch > council just cause it seems more important to get town in that spot than council

There's also kingsguard, which seems very important to make at least 50% town. So I think we have to get the head of that right too.

[VP Baltar]

Or where the idea that she couldn't replicate this as scum comes from?

I don't think it's that she CAN'T replicate it as scum, I just go on vibes with andante. I try to look at if I think she's generally moving in the right direction, though she's bound to have bad takes and reads. It's just a question of her holistic viewpoint, which i still feel OK enough with right now.

I think I townread andres more tbh because I don't like andante's whining about low activity to some degree (even if I agree I'd like to see those bottom 9 post more), but overall I still think she is net advocating positions I agree with.

[VP Baltar]

I think Rhea's posting from a motivational standpoint seems like a really good way avoid talking about literally anything else that's happening in the thread and I think that people tend to town read crazy also so like its possible this is genuine but I think it is also definitely possible its a scum tactic.

I agree with this.

[VP Baltar]

also, i swear i never understood the "this person is being widely townread, must be town that mafia is afraid to challenge". like, why can't they be scum that mafia has no intentions of challenging?

Weren't you just arguing andante town? Not sure why you're making this point.

[VP Baltar]

i am not saying their conclusion is wrong

i'm arguing with the premises

Why tho?

[VP Baltar]

Dann, do you have like a top three and a bottom three right now?

I may be open to your pitch for GL as king, but want to see if we align elsewhere.

Do you have any PR you'd be interested in?

[VP Baltar]

I also did not feel like her methodology even made me, someone who landed on this being more likely to be a town approach from her, more inclined to name her king

Where would you want LLD if you could decide?

[VP Baltar]

can you talk to me more about town!Andres?

Yeah, I was a bit wary at first of how fast he was townbinning GuiltyLion, but the more andres talked about his thoughts around who should be king and his desire to NOT be it, the more I felt like he was coming from a town place.

Also, I’m like offended mastina doesn’t think I’m competent enough to be King. Not that I want it, mind you - but definitely offended.

Why don't you want it?

I'd think town andres would see the utility in being king, and is a logically stable player who would be a benefit to the town.

Fmpov, the determining criteria for a king should probably be:

-towniness
-reliability
-willingness to adjust opinions based upon feedback from the town when necessary.

Andante is pretty obv town, but probably fails in the other two criteria so I can't vote there. Was hoping maybe andres might fulfill these notes, but I guess not.

I can’t come out and say I want to be King when the ability it confers is one I see only as negative utility. The problem we have is that if it’s not handed to Town, it’ll create a lot of instability, and Scum definitely want to be able to possess it. I don’t agree that the Scum would pass on it just because it brings a lot of attention to you - I can definitely see the incentive Scum have to take early control of the game.

And bedsides, I’m a believer in democracy.

In all seriousness, I would use the ability as a hammer, and nothing else. I would not short circuit the conversation ever, and I certainly don’t think anyone that wants it should try and supplant their logic for the wider group unless something absurdly obvious is going on that’s being missed.

I also kind of liked that he was getting into a fight with LLD early over her math post because that seems like a thing you probably wouldn't do if you're scum trying to cruise along during MECH TALK MANIA. Could be they are both scum theatering, but that's an outlier chance.

I also find myself OK or aligned with his reads.

I will say, after rereading some of that andres!scum game Datisi dug up for me, andres can be pretty smooth as scum if he's really trying hard, so I'm less locktown perhaps than I was initially, but my gut still gets good vibes from his slot.

[VP Baltar]

Ok, so here is where my head is at:

King: andres
Prince of Dragonstone: GuiltyLion (maybe?)
Hand of the King: (IDK, should this be a scummy person we force to give a result?)
Lord Commander of the Kingsguard: VP Baltar (LLD, I will put you on the kingsguard with me so we can find the traitors)
Master of Coin: Dannflor
King's Justice: TSQ

What other roles do we need to assign? Are we taking risks with the kingsguard appointments by not putting any scummy people on the small council?

[VP Baltar]

I have thought about this for about 3 minutes total, so you know it's an impervious plan.

[VP Baltar]

Ok, so here is where my head is at:

King: andres
Prince of Dragonstone: GuiltyLion (maybe?)
Hand of the King: (IDK, should this be a scummy person we force to give a result?)
Lord Commander of the Kingsguard: VP Baltar (LLD, I will put you on the kingsguard with me so we can find the traitors)
Master of Coin: Dannflor
King's Justice: TSQ

What other roles do we need to assign? Are we taking risks with the kingsguard appointments by not putting any scummy people on the small council?

Maaaaafiiiiiaaaaaa

If you're good I'll let you in the king's guard on a temporary basis.

[VP Baltar]

Mom Baltar is acting scummy again

Maaaaafiiiiiaaaaaa

Good posts.

y'all are cowards, and that's why you should not have power.

We need people with OPINOINS to be leading Westeros. HOT TAKES even.

[VP Baltar]

I think it’s weird you would even assume I would just take VPB’s suggestions and make them my own with no edits.

I don't assume that you would do that, but VPB's post looked to me to be trying to shift the small council decision to a popular vote rather than the Kings responsibility. Specifically: "What other roles do we need to assign? Are we taking risks with the kingsguard appointments by not putting any scummy people on the small council?". I don't interpret it as a list of trust since he obviously trusts himself but he's still assigned himself a specific role and suggested how he would use it.

A king should always take their subjects' desires into decision making. It's why we need a to follow my criteria for choosing a king.

I also just think we need something new to move discussion forward and I don't really care if people level zero attack me over it.

Do you have issues with my list generally other than I made it? who on there do you think shouldn't have power and who would you put in their place?

[VP Baltar]

Mom Baltar is acting scummy again

Maaaaafiiiiiaaaaaa

Good posts.

y'all are cowards, and that's why you should not have power.

We need people with OPINOINS to be leading Westeros. HOT TAKES even.

I always have opinions!!!

You can be in my kingsguard. The precursor to Brienne of Tarth.

[VP Baltar]

so don't have an issue with the list in those terms - with the exception of you, who is suspicious to me.

why are you suspicious of me? Have you expressed this before?

[VP Baltar]

Also felt good to see him point out the same Datisi post that I did.

Let's be clear, I don't think Datisi is necessarily scummy for this. It just didn't make sense to me. I think you're off on your own on where you've taken that.

[VP Baltar]

Why advocate Andres to be king if you're going to try to undercut him before he's been crowned?

How exactly am I undercutting him?

[VP Baltar]

Shea, what do you think of my king/council pitch? Good, bad, indifferent?

[VP Baltar]

@VP u didn't ask me, but i don't like ur small council. Theres no Firebringer in the master of coin position. And i swear ur trying to break me and dannyboi apart with giving it to him. Rude as fuck, and scummy.

oh good you noticed.

Count seashells peasant

[VP Baltar]

Mastina is like an apparition of life long past. You want to say hello, but you know it's useless.

Rhae, how would you feel about Mastina in my Kingsguard?

pedit- TSQ, it's really not worth responding. It is clear you two cannot move that convo in a productive way. I asked you a question though that you could weigh in on.

[VP Baltar]

Ok, so here is where my head is at:

King: andres
Prince of Dragonstone: GuiltyLion (maybe?)
Hand of the King: (IDK, should this be a scummy person we force to give a result?)
Lord Commander of the Kingsguard: VP Baltar (LLD, I will put you on the kingsguard with me so we can find the traitors)
Master of Coin: Dannflor
King's Justice: TSQ

What other roles do we need to assign? Are we taking risks with the kingsguard appointments by not putting any scummy people on the small council?

[VP Baltar]

GL would be in line for the throne.

[VP Baltar]

How would you feel if someone repeatedly says that you are worthless as a player for being yourself or because your opinion is different from theirs? Answer honestly.

I've literally never said that. Fucks sakes.

You implied it about both mastina and me. I mean you implied she's worthless and thus shouldn't lead. I told you you're wrong because I experienced her being a good leader with scumhunting skills. You repeat that you dislike her playstyle. I say we should have a good leader as king regardless of whether you like it or not. You then say that her playstyle is heinous without even asking why I think she would make a good leader.

23 posts left.

[VP Baltar]

I have noted the GL post about luke recently as something that bothers me a lot.

Did you say after that post that you wanted GL to be king?

[VP Baltar]

Enchant's play this game pretty much exactly matches enchants play in pictures which just finished where enchant was town, so I'm happy enough leaving them alone for now personally.

Enchant's play doesn't seem that townie actually. It's not super engaged in poking people enchant finds scummy in a real way, which they do in my experience.

I can think of one reason why maybe that's the case, but also enchant is better than this as town.


Free bonus take: Titus might be scum here.

[VP Baltar]

Yeah I'm still voting him. I still town read him, I just didnt like that post.

Doesn't seem like it "bothers you a lot" then.

[VP Baltar]

It does though. Why would I lie about conflicted feelings in my read as either alignment?

As scum, you might be sensing a softening of GL sentiment from andres and seeing you might need to hedge eventually. I think what you're saying doesn't make a lot of sense, especially since you just insisted after this that GL *has* to be king in your view, but whatever

[VP Baltar]

Do you not have opinions on the post I'm talking about?

Idk, I just went back and read it and I don't think the luke scum read was out of left field. GL had kind of indicated prior to that he was suss of Luke.

And later GL backs off a bit and is expressing some of the self doubt you seem to be saying is characteristic of him. I don't think GL's read there bothers me much. Could be a little paranoid, but luke is also a good player, so paranoia is reasonable to me.

[VP Baltar]

and I think we should talk a bit more about Andres cause from a birds eye view I didn't like 673 that kinda maybe feels like a time and place where scum needs to undercut town!Andres being universally TR'd and made king or some other high power position, so the agenda is a bit eyebrow raising.

I think the thing for me, and this answers your earlier question to me Datisi, is that that read seems very particular to the point of being something only Datisi can interpret. Andres should be having a solid Datisi read sooner is kind of like...OK? Maybe he just hasn't gotten a vibe on Datisi yet. I didn't find it super compelling as a case or even a reason to doubt andres right now. Maybe I'm just dumb. Like I said, Datisi had a better read of andres in that scum game of andres', but the read just seems to be making a lot of assumptions around 100% play consistency (which datisi does sometimes).

Overall, I think they're both probably town, but my confidence is lower in Datisi.

Dats, if you don't get king, is there another council role you feel like you definitely want?

[VP Baltar]

@Junko - Have you played with andante before?

[VP Baltar]

Could someone give me reasons why mastina would be a bad King? Preferably ones that don't boil down to 'her playstyle is bad' or any variation thereof?

She would probably give you power, which is unappealing (though probably has been your interest the entire time).

I also think her reads so far are mediocre. Appreciate her catching up yesterday though.

[VP Baltar]

I see Fire's obsession with being a master of coin to be town indicative. My argument is that scum wouldn't really want to limit themselves to a certain position as long as they make it to the council.

I can understand Rhaenyra's annoyance with everybody sus-ing her. Everybody has their own thought process and calling something scummy because it's different from your perception is either narrowminded town or scum acting like narrowminded town. It's easy to say comment A is bad and point fingers. Scum don't post stuff if they are aware the logic is flawed right?

Baltar is a jerk. Don't like him deciding the whole roster of who gets what position, feels powerwolfy.

I know Andre didn't ask me to comment on Enchant, but meh. I don't see scum choosing Enchant as their pick to run for king; Forgot who said it but Enchant is an ultimate meme choice. How many people want a good king, and how many want a meme king? There is a possibility of him going awol though.

Fire commented twice about him being scum in #1000 and #1080, i don't understand what he wanted to achieve with this.

#1097 @Rhae: Normally speaking, people don't want someone alien to them(As in incomprehensible reads) to be their king. That's the main reason people don't want someone like ou, mastina or enchant to be king. Logically i agree with this, but personally i want it to happen.

If there are any questions about specific posts that need commenting on feel free to ask.

This post is...not great.

Master of coin is actually a very powerful position because it dictates if the other positions can act or not. If you can't see the scum benefit of that, well..

I'll skip over your comment about me because that's level zero thinking.

On Rhae...I think very few people are sussing her actually. Many are saying she's simply difficult to interact with this game and they're ignoring. I've personally felt she might be town because this is extremely short sighted scum play, though could be an act idk.

As far as questions, I'd like to hear some reads on your top 3-5 and bottom 3-5 players.

[VP Baltar]

Baltar - who should be king?

Andres or GL imo. I think the king position needs someone reliable, even if it's slightly less powerful than the council overall.

We are handing over a vig, so I'd like someone who is deliberate, personally

[VP Baltar]

Datisi, can you bullet point your town read on me again? Am I your strongest townread?

[VP Baltar]

@lukewarm That's mean

I don't want this people as town or heir: Baltar Enchant Rhae mastina Penguinpower Andres UNO

Can you explain andres and Uno to me?

[VP Baltar]

LLD, I wouldn't mind having more interaction with you today if you're around. I'm curious which council position you'd want if you're seeking power here.

Pedit - ok good to know. If you were king, who would be your preferred appointments?

[VP Baltar]

Like i said to Guiltylion I don't sr Andres, just don't feel like having him as king

Why's that?

[VP Baltar]

LLD, I wouldn't mind having more interaction with you today if you're around. I'm curious which council position you'd want if you're seeking power here.

Pedit - ok good to know. If you were king, who would be your preferred appointments?

My preferred council position is Captain of Kingsguard, actually. But given things as they are... I think I need to be king because things are progressing in ways I'm not wholy certain on.

As for appointments it will be my town reads top to bottom in roles I think will suit them and be able to catch them if I am wrong.

I vibe with the instinct to be kingsguard cap. After reviewing the positions, that seems the most essential spot to put a town to avoid disaster, and why I also would like this spot since I know my alignment.

I will say that if you want my vote for king, you need to be more transparent about who you want where and why. Maybe you have a tendency in games, as Luke says, to hide your town read reasons. I'd say that doesn't work as well here because of the nature of the setup and town needing to cooperate well for best chance of success.

[VP Baltar]

Tell me I am wrong.

You're wrong.


Anyhow. LLD - can I get an updated reads list from you. Also, has your thinking changed at all on the essential nature of the king being the most important decision?

[VP Baltar]

Tell me I am wrong.

You're wrong.


Anyhow. LLD - can I get an updated reads list from you. Also, has your thinking changed at all on the essential nature of the king being the most important decision?

Said person who already states king to appoint self at kingsguard.

The king can do whatever they want.

It seems odd that you'd take issue with me trying to advocate myself to be in an essential town position. I know my alignment and captain of the kingsguard is really key to be town.

Just earlier this game, you were making a stink about people not self voting because they know their alignment, right?

I have a hard time seeing how this is consistent for town!Enchant, who in my experience is actually quite reasonable.

[VP Baltar]

I won't give you a list but I can comment on some players you want to know about.

ok, sure.

I think I'd most like to hear from you about:

Mastina
Luke
Shea
Guilty Lion
Andres
Datisi
Owen
Titus
Dann
and myself.

Just a general town/scum is fine, and y/n to council if you can manage.
------------------------

In other thoughts, I've been trying to think about general scenarios I see playing out right now, especially since I gathered some votes last night, which frankly I find a little unexpected given I usually don't hold a ton of sway (read: much of any) on D1s. I usually get sussed for bad reasons and gain a little more authority as town later in games if my reads aren't complete shit.

I've been trying to figure out where the scum are mostly.

Scenario 1: Scum are getting negotiated out of power

This is kind of an ideal scenario fmpov. This would be a world where the people who appear fairly towny actually are, and they are driving the conversation. To me, this would be like GL, andres, andante, datisi, Dann, TSQ all as town, and hopefully LLD. This is a very solid town and would put scum in the group more out of power: Enchant, Uno, Dwlee, Titus, Rhae, etc. Luke would probably also be scum in this scenario.

This is a pretty rosey scenario and seems unlikely to some degree, though I do think at least one of the people who got in a twist about me suggesting a council is probably scum (leaning toward UNO, but Enchant is trying).

Scenario 2: My reads are fucked up and scum think I would take town down a bad path

Honestly, I'm very paranoid about this. I don't always have good early game reads, and I tend to be OK with that because I sharpen over time typically. In this world, scum want me as king to make some bad early calls and get them into positions of power. Most likely wolves in that scenario to me would probably be Datisi or GL with an outside chance of andres. Dann I think could be town in this scenario given I don't think he particularly thinks I should have power (unless I'm forgetting something). Luke I'm undecided on. Maybe he could be scum in this world too and is theatering with Datisi/GL? Or maybe he's town off to a slow start.

TSQ could still be town in this scenario too. But he feels like he's kind of on the sidelines not trying to do much to shape the power outcome.

This scenario means we might benefit more from Mastina and LLD having some power. Maybe Junko, but ugh I am unlikely to want that. I'm more inclined to trust mastina/LLD in some type of coalition govt.

Remaining scum in this scenario would likely still be in the low info/lurker pile.

(pedited to hell, I'll catch up on that stuff later)

[VP Baltar]

VPB I'm voting you largely because I'm most confident you are town and you have momentum, and I'm really curious to see who is really actively against you being King because we are getting to a stage where I find scumreading you somewhat implausible on the whole. personally I've seen you as scum twice now and your vibes are different to me this game. I would also keep in mind there's only 4 players

actually voting you

right now, talk is cheap, votes are what matter.

I do kinda like your coalition idea because scum are going to have to acquiesce to a King at some point and it's a bit dangerous/naive to assume the rosy scenario esp in people supporting you that you think may be town but aren't voting you yet. I've been lazy and haven't thought a ton about Council Mechanics but I don't think a scum councilor is the worst thing in the world because whoever is in those spots (especially thinking like, the cop, master of coin, jailkeeper roles) is going to be forced into playing pro-town to some degree, going rogue to advance scum agenda early would immediately get flagged as scummy. I'd be fine with LLD or Mastina in council positions for that reason, I think in some worlds where we get out weak scum that actually might make the game harder for them if they're deep scum.

Yeah, I think scum can be boxed in a few ways on council, including just not funding their actions if we get really concerned.

So it's probably important to have town in King, Kingsguard, and Master of coin positions I think. Beyond that we can be a little flexible. Putting at least one scummy person in the kingsguard is probably helpful too because then that person needs to hood with more town players and prove their town credentials. Same would apply to council positions.

It's kind of why I want LLD to talk to me more because if she's town she's an asset to have some power, but I'll see if she responds to my last post.

[VP Baltar]

I agree that spot should be held by a strongarmed town. The problem is that i have never played with you and your desire to control the flow of the game strikes me as sus.
Your logic is sound tho, a kind candidate needs to be transparent about the people he plans to give the roles to. Who exactly knows the members of the council? If it includes the kingsguard there is no chance of scum not knowing who has what position.

I think we all know who is on the council? I mean, the king appoints, so the king can just tell us. I suppose that could be kept secret, but all the council members know because they have a hood. Any scum who gets in there will blab, so it probably means everyone should just know.

FWIW, I'm really not trying to strong arm who should be where. I understand it could come across that way. I just think someone needs to propose something rather than us debating king merits for 7 days. I absolutely invite people to shoot holes in my logic and thinking. I'd rather we are all talking and proposing ideas to move us in a solid direction. There is a benefit to seeing where people's heads are at (though LLD might disagree with that, I find transparency very important for games that require town agreement).

I also think as town, I'm decent at organizing people to move in a semi-unified direction. For example, in Guardians of the Fortress I made it a point to make a concrete proposal on where I thought all the players should go for the minigames there. I don't take my word as final at all, but making a pitch and building is better than spending D2 trying to figure this stuff out from scratch instead of scumhunting.

[VP Baltar]

>am i to assume theres ways for master of coin to make more money?

Gamestonk.

UNVOTE: andres
VOTE: GuiltyLion

I won't vote myself unless we're at deadline and need to make a decision. I generally agree with GL's thoughts on council. Interesting Datisi wasn't on there.

I also think he's town here and I know I am, so LOL have fun picking scum.

[VP Baltar]

For Baltar, since he asked but I don't wanna quote the long post.

Mastina - Scum, her reads list makes less than 0 sense in its fabrication.
Luke - town
Shea - Town
Guilty Lion - ehhhhhhhhhhh. Really not sure. Some posts look town and other posts make me flinch.
Andres- Probably town.
Datisi - Not confident, but not confident in them being town.
Owen - Town.
Titus - Not on my town list currently, none of their catchup has sold me on what I need to see from them.
Dann - Dann... probably town, despite my first instincts. The UNOwen turn and way they discussed that sold me a bit.
and myself (VPB) - Don't trust you or your current approach to the game, feel very much like you're sat in a place scum would sit. Trust your skill enough to make you Hand of the King to cop people, not enough to trust your alignment, however.

This is the list of names you requested, my reads on them, and a bonus of the only slot I would consider putting you into my cabinet, Baltar.

Thank you for the list, I appreciate you humoring me even if you don't trust me. If elected king, I'll probably give you a cabinet position as well.

I definitely find it interesting you've taken Luke's side in the GL-Luke fight. Seems like a bold take to me. Are you reading that pretty thoroughly or relying a bit on your past instincts there?

anyways in funnier news, rhaenya is out of posts and can only naked vote.

I also laughed and am waiting for people to realize there is a nonzero chance she was doing this intentionally.

[VP Baltar]

VOTE: junko

Would love an explanation of why you think junko would be a good king choice

[VP Baltar]

It’s funny cause I don’t see Luke Talking about VP in this post nor Junko and just GL.


So Luke I ask you why are you against my proposal to have Junko as Queen?
Even if they are a wolf they aren’t capable of applying much thread manipulation where as VP is.

I think this take of wolf monarch actually has little effect is out of this world dumb, especially when it's already been stated that some appointments to the council give scum special powers --- and I'm assuming they know this and are angling for them.

Scum also know that making a scum kingsguard makes them NK immune.

Just blatantly scummy angling here.

[VP Baltar]

On the Luke-shea argument, I actually agree with Luke.. though that's probably unpopular.

Shea does this all the time imo (in mafia and outside), where he makes assumptions and then strictly applies them to people's thinking as if that were the only way to see it. Maybe it's a pressure tactic, but I don't find it super convincing to be like "scum and town both have agendas!" when very clearly those types of "agendas" are not the same thing.

I'm not sure I buy Luke's argument for why Titus is town, but I don't find him making it inherently scummy.

[VP Baltar]

Small council positions in the hands of the mafia faction may unlock special "bonus" abilities that are not known to you but will be known to the mafia faction - a king must choose his advisors wisely.

[VP Baltar]

This is like pretty clearly well poisoning

lol I have you as a town read and would probably put you on council if elected, but I understand how every disagreement is clearly a personal attack on you. I truly hope you're OK.

[VP Baltar]

Like maybe he dislikes me personally outside of the context of this game and that's coloring his reaction to me as either alignment, the comment on what I do "out of game" sure does imply that

It's not really that I dislike you. I just find the way you make arguments to be pretty questionable a lot of the time. I find you often work backward from a conclusion and then are unwilling to consider other possible ways of thinking about things. It's fine, I could be wrong! You don't have to agree with me. I can reread what you said to Luke about his Titus read. I just found it to be a pretty narrow view point. I believe that you believe it. I just don't think it's a good point.

[VP Baltar]

What about "you are assuming that titus is town because she is not doing x but titus not doing x is more adequately explained by her being disengaged" is a narrow viewpoint?

Right, but Luke cited a specific game he sees as similar to this situation. You don't think that potentially influences his viewpoint on a titus read? This is how so many people play mafia. "In past experience A, X person acted this way. I would now expect them to act similarly in experience B." I understand that you disagree with Luke's conclusion that Titus is town because of that. Hell, I AGREE WITH YOU.

The part I think is bad is that you then stretch that into shading Luke (and maybe this wasn't your intention, but it's how I read your post), which doesn't make sense to me and seems to be working backward from a conclusion you wanted to reach. Luke could just have a personal experience that is influencing his read there, IDK. It's pretty weak as I see it. I also don't like that andres jumped on this. That's probably sketching me out more than your view, which I see as a type of viewpoint flaw I think you're prone to. This is not a personal attack, and again, feel free to call me bad or mean or whatever, but it's how I see it.

[VP Baltar]

Slight Lean Scum
{UNOwen, Enchant, Titus,

Andante

, Dwlee99, Datisi}

Interesting. Did you explain this earlier? I might have missed it.

[VP Baltar]

Datisi and GuiltyLion, would you mind giving me your take on Luke's play this game versus his play in KTANE, and what you see as similar or different as far as motivations? Thanks!

[VP Baltar]

Slight Lean Scum
{UNOwen, Enchant, Titus,

Andante

, Dwlee99, Datisi}

Interesting. Did you explain this earlier? I might have missed it.

Yeah I did - it’s basically a natural extension of 1405.

Can you explain your read in your own words for me? Bullet points are fine.

Why is andante scummy, and bonus Q, why is drapion in your town core?

[VP Baltar]

Can I ask something of everyone who has me in their scum/unknown pile? Can you ask me a question about something you think is important in the game: a post, a VC, a convo, whatever. I need some pointers to get engaged and I like talking one on one

I'm going to start going into post conservation mode, but I'm staying up to date reading everything. I can put some questions to you, but I may not respond to everything.

Can I get your take on how from the viable King candidates you'd like to see and why? It might be good for you to weigh in on everyone. (Junko, myself, GL, and I think andres seem like viable candidates.) Bonus points for a convincing case on who you want to be king outside of that, if that's the case.


Who are your top scum reads and why?

What do you think are the most essential seats on the council for town to control?

What's your read on Datisi and Titus, and why?

[VP Baltar]

I reread Junko's ISO. Probably town, though it seems like the play is within anyone's scum range too. I don't have Junko meta, so I'm basing this town read solely on "faceless mafia player" instincts. I think my issue with Junko king is they seem to have a bit of a looser understanding of the council, and maybe feel a little yolo to me when it comes to decision time, but I could be slightly biased because they joined in the shitting on me for trying to propose a council , even though Junko had also proposed a council (just without specific positions).

We can do worse than Junko king if that's the way it breaks, but I do think I'd be a better option.

[VP Baltar]

why do you ask about ktane specifically - is there anything you see?

I asked because it was another game where Luke came under scrutiny early in the game (from Bell there), to the point where fireisredsir likely got D1 limmed because of people's issues with Luke. I, as scum in that game, remember being happy about that because they were very misguided attacks. I am pulling from memory a bit, but I think Bell attacked him for not playing to meta or something like that.

I asked you and GL because you had more impartial/uninformed viewpoints on that game than I did. I wanted to know if you saw parallels or not. I've definitely been nodding more to GL's posts this game than Luke's, but I think my last experience with Luke was in Guardians where he was scum trying to be a lot more game controlling.

When I was giving this game my all, it was just like "whatever" and now a bunch of yall are like "andante aint town" whatever... can't wait for King!Junko to vig me cause I'm "universal SR" then "omg andante was town???" "andante just sucks, it's ok, junko still lock town!"

This might be an overreaction. I don't think a lot of people are attacking you. But if you're worried, you can vote me king.

I saw VPB request that I do a reread of KTANE where I remember scumreading Luke, I'll try to do that as well as Shakespeare cause I feel like I vaguely remember Luke being Townie in Shakespeare. add it to the pile of meta homework

On the plus side, he wasn't in that game too long. You don't need to do a deep dive, just curious if you see any differences here.

sir???

Datisi altering posts again. smh. mod ban.

You seemed like a 'personality' vote, from my understanding.

lol fucking ouch

[VP Baltar]

like here, if you actually went through my iso with the intent to read me and not just shade me you would have said something like my council options are questionable or you disagree with them because so far I've said that I can remember now:

Lady Lambdadelta: commander
Firebringer: keeper of coin
Rhea: tracker

which to be honest are up for debate, and are way far from your non-democratic list

where does this "junko's loose understanding of the council" come from by the way? and what's so hard to understand about it?

I'm not 100% following what you're saying here. Are you saying I'm shading you? Is that what you took away from my post?

With regards to your council, this is what I took as your council positions (which does not include Rhea)

here is my small town:

Junko the Prinzessin der Verurteilung
Andante
TSQ
Firebringer
Lady Lambdadelta
Dannfloor

Obv you've changed on andante. I don't hate the rest of that list, even if it's not what I would necessarily do completely.

As far as your loose understanding of the council/game mechanics, you've needed help a few times.

@Andante could you point me to where it says we have 7 days yo pick a king?

I think we got a candidate for first execution

Ah it does Say seven nvm

The successor should also be picked by popular vote. I mean we can clearly command the King to make logical choices and eliminate any King that goes rogue. Like I wouldn’t just leave every decision to them - that amount of concentrated power is usually a horrible thing in the hands of almost any Town.

Are you bad at math or intentionally dense?

Allow me to do the math for you.

21-> 16:5

15:5
14:5
14:4
13:4
12:4
11:4
11:3
10:3
9:3
8:3
8:2
7:2
6:2
5:2
5:1
4:1
3:1
2:1
2:0

That means, if every king came out and HARD CORE forced an execute, and obv scummed it up while doing it, we would end the game one elimination ahead of a loss, in ELO.

So all any king needs to do is obtain one successful miselimination, say on day 1, pick whoever the fuck they want as their replacement, execute day 2 and the chain begins for a town loss.

It's... possible some of the roles in this game that are obtainable might be able to mitigate this, but given we're seeing role powers be public... and the numbers are as they are, if a scum is king can't they just fill small council with their team to Prevent that?

Like... this game is on a much tighter leash than people realize, I think.

ma lady, king cannot execute 2 days in a row

nvm I see what you mean

you know I was under the wrong assumption that the council was the same thing as the kingsguard,

I think you'd be a more chaotic choice for king, but I think you're town so whatever.

[VP Baltar]

I'd be willing to back TSQ for King.

Mastina is almost certainly scum because this is delusional level posting.

GuiltyLion, I'll ponder your Junko tinfoil. The Rhaenyra switch did strike me as odd given that Junko was antagonizing Rhaenyra into burning up her extra posts, but I also kind of feel town vibes from Junko more broadly.

Andante, you too crazy to be king. Would never vote for you.

The datisi-andres fight I think is TvT.

Dann is weirdly background after being very out in front at the start of this game. This seems weird since he said he gets better as games go on.

Back to post preservation mode.

[VP Baltar]

UNVOTE:
VOTE: TSQ

[VP Baltar]

he is arguing that Firebringer was scum for pushing for master of coin

No, I was not. I'm slightly annoyed I have to waste a post explaining this, but clearly you're having a hard time understanding things that seem pretty self explanatory.

Char said scum wouldn't lock themselves into a spot like master of coin. I said, well master of coin can control the other power roles, so definitely seems to have some scum benefit.

I have zero clue if Firebringer knew this, but I wasn't even arguing he did. Literally all the roles have some benefit to scum if possessed by them, therefore the argument that scum wouldn't want to be locked into a role doesn't make a lot of sense from a general perspective.

[VP Baltar]

I'm actually Pooky. Mod god scum slip. Try to stop me now, town.

[VP Baltar]

i think drapion's approach to the game is kinda townie but i think he also should not be within the 10 foot radius of the council

hit me with your abbreviated scum list again: luke, andres, ??, ??, ??

[VP Baltar]

i think drapion's approach to the game is kinda townie but i think he also should not be within the 10 foot radius of the council

hit me with your abbreviated scum list again: luke, andres, ??, ??, ??

luke, dwlee, less certain on charloux and bellaphant

and then a fun meme choice in andres/enchant/penguin

(i am not actually as certain on andres since it feels like everyone thinks i'm wrong so i'm gonna not try to kill him for the time being and hope that i get enlightened later)

So you basically think the scum are getting rolled hard here and essentially have no influence? Seems a little optimistic.

@enchant - You think both datisi and I are scum now. Seems improbable. Why should I read you as town here when you're doing less than usual (surprising!) and your reads seem extremely fabricated?

[VP Baltar]

if you have a scumcase on someone who's loud and influential and widely townread, i am listening; but i don't

I think I'm back to feeling dann is scum. I don't have some massive case, but the way he disappeared when the king talk became more dynamic and chaotic screams scum unsure of what to do.

I'm also not sure if mastina is delusional town or refuge in audacity scum.

Enchant is probably scum here, so I agree on that. Less sure on the rest, but I am constantly worrying there is a scum in (andres, datisi, GL) and I'm the targeting of pocketing.

Pedit - Enchant, do you really think I'm calling for incompetence? Or that I, myself, am incompetent?

[VP Baltar]

Also, since a few people are getting limited on posts now, myself included, I think it is a good idea for us to move forward with TSQ king asap. If someone is opposed to this, they should make a clear case for someone better. If you're not opposed, vote Shea and let's get to voting scum out. I think we have pretty thoroughly explored the avenues in the king discussion at this point.

[VP Baltar]

Ok, so here is where my head is at:

King: andres
Prince of Dragonstone: GuiltyLion (maybe?)
Hand of the King: (IDK, should this be a scummy person we force to give a result?)
Lord Commander of the Kingsguard: VP Baltar (LLD, I will put you on the kingsguard with me so we can find the traitors)
Master of Coin: Dannflor
King's Justice: TSQ

What other roles do we need to assign? Are we taking risks with the kingsguard appointments by not putting any scummy people on the small council?

Updating these.

Prince of Dragonstone: GuiltyLion
Hand of the King: Datisi
Lord Commander of the Kingsguard: VP Baltar
Master of Coin: Firebringer
King's Justice: andres
Master of whispers: LLD
Grand Maester: Andante

[VP Baltar]

Maybe you are prioritizing differently which slots feel most important to have town in, but I feel like Master of Coin is likely the most important, followed by Prince, and then Leader of the Kingsguard third.

Maybe that is wrong for some reason, but that was my impression.

So I would kind of prefer you in one of those two slots. (especially over GL and firebringer )

Similarly, I feel like Grand Maester does not matter as much, since if any scum get into the council at all , they should know who the maester is being told to target, so it kind of feels not all that imporant / likely to actually ever save anyone, so less inclined to put andante there.

And probably least important, imo, is the two invests. Since forcing scum to claim results on who ever they are told to invest each night seems semi-useful. Like, obviously not as good as having town there, but not like actively harmful compared to coin or prince (once it becomes king)

Prince is kind of important to be town for sure, and I know we disagree about GL. I feel confident there, but I'm not actually sure GL and I have both been town before? Still, I think his play doesn't seem fake to me.

Master of Coin is kind of important, but also seems like something town can easily fact check and hold in line. "Fire, pay for us to have a cop tonight." D2: "Where the fuq is my money?"

I think Kingsguard is more important because that role has exclusive power to select the guard. As Datisi notes, if any scum get in there, that's bad and poses major threats to the King/heir/council down the line.

The one other thing I think we should be careful about actually is the Grand Maester. Someone earlier speculated something about that role maybe getting poison abilities or something similarly bad if scum have it. That kind of fits with the flavor of the show, and doesn't seem that crazy to me. Could be like a bonus scum kill and I'd like to stay away from that.

That's my thinking. I highly doubt Shea even puts me on the council, to be frank, but I can only note the strategy from my point of view.

[VP Baltar]

VOTE: dwlee

[VP Baltar]

feels odd that now vpb wants me here, but okay i guess. first time vpb said something that made me go thats weird.

Been feeling OK about you for a minute, and you're very enthusiastic. Plus the more I thought about it, master of coin kind of has to be pretty transparent because other council members can just call you out if you don't Venmo like you said you would. So how much damage could you actually do if you are scum?

[VP Baltar]

Dwlee, in KTANE you had the fire of 1000 suns when we fought to the death over bombs, and here it is very meh. I want to be convinced you're town. Who should we lim today if not you?

[VP Baltar]

Baltar, Datisi, GuiltyLion, Rhaenyra, Dannflor, PenguinPower, Junkochan, Firebringer, Unowen

Scum:
Datisi
Dann

Frustrated but not necessarily scum:
Guiltylion

Town:
Baltar
Rhae/unwnd

Leantown:
Fire

Idk:
Penguin
Junko
Unowen

Where's TSQ fit? And andres?

[VP Baltar]

And why am I town?

[VP Baltar]

I find it interesting that there's an uncontested wagon without Shea on it. Not sure if Shea approved (haven't read) but vote patterns d0 suggest it's largely a town driven wagon. I'd like a counter for data purposes though given the fact Shea doesn't endorse. The king is in one of those positions where they're likely ignored because they can do what they want.

Titus made a town post.

Fwiw, I don't think Shea is fully sold on the dwlee scum theory. We are talking in the supporters PT.

I'd be willing to help Shea with an LLD wagon, and I actually hate her emotional manipulation here. But I do think dwlee has a high chance of flipping scum, and that is certainly my preference.

[VP Baltar]

@andres - I think Shea is town. I don't pick up any kind of agenda from his posting. I don't have a good meta of him, but I've found his takes understandable, even in some I've disagreed with. I probably should do a reread of him at some point while trying to ignore my instincts there and just see if anything strikes me as odd, but for now I'm fine just trusting he is town and focusing elsewhere. Not really dedicating brainspace to a shea!scum world.

[VP Baltar]

I've decided that I don't like voting off Dwlee. This is partially based on Meta. I believe Dwlee is someone who is affixed to their own quirks, and what I like about Dwlee (on the surface) is that they're not reliant upon them. I also find that Dwlee will use their quirks to navigate an argument, which is mostly just trying to dodge suspicion. Their thoughts (while limited, and a bit fragmented) seemed real to me. They weren't overly expressive and more considered about being matter-of-fact. Datisi's angle is that Dwlee should be more emotionally invested in their claims, but nothing to me suggests this is a scum trait. I would even say emotional investment favors their scum play more, as it is a quirk. Dwlee as scum will apply quirkiness to create potential what-ifs, but here I think their posts are pretty easy to follow. I like them and I think this wagon is bad.

UNVOTE:

What are dwlee's "quirks" here exactly that you're referencing?

My PoE
Lukewarm
VPBaltar
Charloux
Andante
Maybe Lady
Maybe unwnd




Also @Titus you realize town can push town wagon right? Especially day 1.
It’s called town not figuring out correctly who a wolf is and voting a town.

I'm slightly curious how you see that group of people functioning as a team here when I, in particular, have been at pretty extreme cross purposes with several people on that list.

Where's TSQ fit? And andres?

Lean town and town respectively

And why am I town?

I forgor

You forgot? I can't say I love this. Like I said about KTANE, you were really on point that game and here it's like you can't call up anything for basic reasoning. I'm not trying to shit on you for not being motivated. I get that happens. But if you're town, I'd suspect you could at least remember your basic thoughts.

Overall, I see two people who believe the other is scum. Right now I'm leaning on it being TvS but I digress

Why is Datisi scum again? Bullet point version is fine.

Part of my lingering doubts on GL Datisi and VPB et al is I would expect this to give them pause, and it doesn't seem to have done so. I feel like that group of players should have enough mafia experience to see the things I'm seeing here and at least consider them, but I haven't seen much evidence of that, really. GL says that part of the way he considers scum reads is by compiling a list of town pings and then asking himself who is the least town. I do think there's probably some truth to that, which is why I asked him to point out him saying so in another game, which he did do, but I think it lacks nuance. I agree that dwlee hasn't done anything affirmatively townie, but I would expect GL to be considering context outside of the direct actions of dwlee themselves, and it makes me feel kind of squicked out that he doesn't appear to be doing that very much. Same with Datisi. Same with VPB.

To this point Shea, I think you're saying "I don't see the benefit of dwlee playing this way as scum"....but I also don't see the benefit of them playing this way as town either. I've sort of specifically been trying to engage with them to do SOMETHING and pull back the thought curtain in the slightest. That's not happening.

I also just fundamentally think you're wrong that there's not benefit to scum hunkering down and waiting for a storm to pass. That does often happen D1. With any wagon that arises, you're going to have people that favor it and those that oppose. You being king gives you probably some added authority in opposition. Given you immediately did not vote for a dwlee wagon, it's not unreasonable to assume your counter vote gives some validity to a wait-and-see strategy. Further, I think people just naturally have a negative reaction to speed wagons a lot of the time and assume they are usually wrong. In my experience, it can be very hard to get speed wagons over the hump.

You certainly overuse fact that you don't need provide anything to push me.

If you want to throw game further okay, it's not like you ever listen to me.

Another point that actually bugs me about enchant is his use of emotional manipulation this game. You're "game throwing." Or fine, "don't listen to me ever." I don't recall games of enchant doing this recently as town, but if someone has counter evidence, I'm open to hearing it. Some players certainly do this as either alignment (LLD, I'm told), but I do find some people try it more often as scum because it's an easy tool to reach for and fakeable.

This is what irritates me in mafia.
I just wish for one mafia game people start thinking more like me.

lol join the club

our PT had rae fight with peeps, me doing my own thing, mastina responding, and that's about it tbh, it's a dead pt now I believe

The fact the PT is dead makes me a little suss there is a decent amount of scum in there, especially if you all largely townread each other. Like, our PT has a number of people who town read each other and it is a VERY active discussion. People are solving and throwing ideas out and relieved they have a space to post where they aren't limited by a post restriction. It seems concerning to me that your PT is dropped off.

you supposed to create council, not circus

Bite me.

Bite me.

Execute someone already

Most townie enchant has been all game.

re 1949 - i actually searched "mm" throughout my iso for this and i don't get it. i have said "hmm" and its equivalents a few times this game, but they have always been in the middle of posts, not at the end. it's hardly stalling between posts when i continued the thoughts in the same post. if there's a better example, and if you have actually done meta research and i didn't do this in prior towngames, then i can sort of see where you're coming from, but this seems like nonsense currently.

If people don't wanna consider this though I'm down to just kill Drapion or Enchant you almost always flip a scum there

agree on enchant, but why drapion?

I've decided to drop it. It's not an excuse, but I think my [[advanced]] diplomacy skills are a tad rusty. I'm going to try and simplify my arguments from now on.

That being said..

You just move up to null

I mentioned this in the PT, but I think your point was kind of bunk. I don't disagree that scum can stall sometimes when getting pressed. I think scum datisi did this a bit in Frenemies, a game I was doing some meta looking at earlier. But that's just not present here in datisi's play at all this game. I don't love that you just back off here when slightly pressed either. It reads like you made up some bullshit, got called on it and now you're retreating.

kingsguard picks: mastina/penguinpower/enchant/VPB/GL/Dannflor

I question the pengiun, enchant, dann picks, and I think mastina would not be willing to interact with me in a way that is useful to andres. I haven't thought through a kingsguard selection, but this one seems not great.

UNOwen do you think Follow the Cop works? If there's scum somewhere in the chain we can work out who it is, otherwise we get a check every night

I don't care at all. Someone else can think about mechanics to figure it out.

This seems like a scummy reply from Owen. Being so salty you didn't get on council that you're not even thinking about the mechanics? As town who didn't get on the council, I find this an unreasonable and unlikely stance.

[VP Baltar]

This seems like a scummy reply from Owen. Being so salty you didn't get on council that you're not even thinking about the mechanics? As town who didn't get on the council, I find this an unreasonable and unlikely stance.

Did you not hit "preview" before posting this?

Yeah, what you're saying is antitown, and probably just bullshit.

You don't think you cam help town win by being VT?

[VP Baltar]

Yeah, what you're saying is antitown, and probably just bullshit.

You don't think you cam help town win by being VT?

How is that statement/question relevant to this post:

Extremely bitter yes, especially since I was cruelly led to believe I would be on the council.

But actually I'm just not really interested in trying to break or otherwise optimize a set up. Mechanics talk is always dull to me.

?

Am I not clearly saying I don't care about mechanics talk? That has nothing to do with whether I think I can contribute to a win as VT.

Furtiveglance asked you an extremely simple mech question and you kind of had a little boo hoo party that you didn't get a PR and then didn't answer the Q.

I don't believe a person who wanted a power role has no desire to talk at all about mechanics. It's not like it was some wide ranging question that would require in depth thought. It was "what do you think about follow the cop".

So let me put this a different way: if you were on the council, would you have the same statement that you don't like to talk about mechanics? If yes, why did you want on the council?

[VP Baltar]

VP Baltar, is UNOwen scum?

Possibly. Owen remains in my PoE.

[VP Baltar]

I mentioned this in the PT, but I think your point was kind of bunk. I don't disagree that scum can stall sometimes when getting pressed. I think scum datisi did this a bit in Frenemies, a game I was doing some meta looking at earlier. But that's just not present here in datisi's play at all this game. I don't love that you just back off here when slightly pressed either. It reads like you made up some bullshit, got called on it and now you're retreating.

Counterpoint: I make shit up all the time as either alignment. That's how you get reactions from people? Datisi isn't going to pay attention to me making a vague/observational statement. It just so happened that I recognized the way I've been phrasing my concerns hasn't been effective. It got his attention sure, but once I got it he pretty much said 'idgi.' That's not helpful to me and I'm not gonna continue with the same approach. That's why I dropped it.

Why did you want his attention? What did you learn from that interaction?

As far as us having more back and forth, I'd love to, but I'm also very limited on posts (17 or so left for me today). I would be ok with you in andres' kingsguard along with me, so if that happens, I look forward to talking more in depth.

I will gladly answer questions you have as efficiently as I can, and maybe I can find an envoy to relay messages from the PT for smaller things.
--------

Pedit - Owen is not my preferred kill. I do feel like limming dwlee is optimal today. They are scummy causing, imo, and their lim is decently informative about some players pushing there.

I'm not really surprised I didn't get a PR. Honestly, I'm surprised I came as close as I did to being king because I usually get sussed fairly hard D1. Some towns are just naturally suss of my playstyle because I can be direct in what I'm thinking/want to happen. Scum usually pick up on some of that natural suspicion and can push me D1 too. So I didn't have high hopes of getting a PR, and that's fine.

I would like to be in the kingsguard. I know my alignment and wanted to be Commander. I think I'm pretty good at organizing towns to move in clear directions, so I think k being able to talk to a group of players is helpful for me to figure out who is moving in protown directions and who is not.

[VP Baltar]

Titus, can you tell me why you aren't really pushing for an alternative elim today so we have a competing wagon? It kind of seems like you're coasting and won't have a ton of material to analyze tomorrow.

[VP Baltar]

Enchant [3]: unwnd, GuiltyLion, Andresvmb
VP Baltar [2]: Enchant, mastina
Datisi [1]: Dwlee99
Titus [1]: Andante


not voting [4]: Titus, Lukewarm, Charloux, Lady Lambdadelta,

Vote one of the leading wagons pls so we can yeet and I can get more posts.

[VP Baltar]

Did we establish who firebringer is funding and why?

[VP Baltar]

Enchant [3]: unwnd, GuiltyLion, Andresvmb
VP Baltar [2]: Enchant, mastina
Datisi [1]: Dwlee99
Titus [1]: Andante


not voting [4]: Titus, Lukewarm, Charloux, Lady Lambdadelta,

Vote one of the leading wagons pls so we can yeet and I can get more posts.

Why did you choose this vote count and not the one that includes the recent shift to charloux?

It I'd the one with charloux. It's just the bottom of the list, which is all the people with vanity/no votes.

[VP Baltar]

no one is even doing anything

Also andante

Titus [1]: Andante

[VP Baltar]

in the supporters pt, luke has been asking gl for some reads on lld for a bit now. which like, okay. then, a few hours ago, lukewarm made a mini-case on guiltylion. he posted that case in the council pt - where gl cannot read it nor respond to it. i think this is disingenuous and doesn't make sense from a town-perspective. the case hinges on a contradiction from gl, which i think would be beneficial for luke if gl could see it and potentially respond to it; he can't right now.

I agree this is kind of BS. I, for one, am already unlikely to vote GL today, so Luke has some major convincing to do. It's kind of a cowards move to not let GL respond and seems to be targeted to get pressure votes on GL....for what?

I don't really care if TSQ doesn't want a dwlee yeet. His reads seem a little hit or miss this game so far. Dwlee is very objectively the best move today, because it is relatively high information based on reactions, and if dwlee flips scum, Luke probably is too.

[VP Baltar]

I mean, call it BS if you want, but to show up right as you're getting voted? and your "defense" is like "let's vote Charl!" like, excuse me? why is that the best vote here? yeah idk, I'm pretty sure GL is a mafia

What's he supposed to defend? What's the case? Oh wait...

Also, I LOVE that you camped on a nowhere vote, mischaracterize the dwlee wagon, and show up to vote this trash. Very town stuff.

[VP Baltar]

1 in DW/Datsi for sure. Rev those slots down with a chainsaw in w/e order tbh but I'm more scared of Datsi wiggling their way out of a vote against me (AGAIN) then DW so B)
pedit: Oh has the king just sat there and done nothing? PERFECT just as I expected.

Why are you voting guilty lion if you believe there is scum in DW/datisi?

[VP Baltar]

Do you think if I click the iso button on DWlee he'll be extremely wolfy? I just saw two posts from DW in a hood I share with them and GL's backtrack on this page so I voted GL. I could iso them that's probably optimal but ehhh
pedit: That should be extremely self-explanatory

I don't think this is self explanatory. You basically said you were voting to save your ass (which is fine as town), but then voted the lesser wagon when you're saying dwlee has 50% chance of being scum. Idgi

[VP Baltar]

In this game it just seems like a lot of his reads just spring out of the air and he seems completely married to them as opposed to ever going back and reevaluating. I think this post is pretty interesting:

I am reevaluating. My read on Lukewarm went scum->town. My reads on junko & Mastina went town->scum. Several of my other reads have bounced around the place. This is categorically untrue

We're at a point now where I have townreads and people i don't townread and I'd like a flip, and have been at that point for a few days. This is how I play every D1. You don't have as good of a sense for me as a player as you think you do.

VOTE: GuiltyLion

Call this as opportunistic as you like

but how hard do you need to backtrack and scramble in one post? Like, does the rest of the context matter and make this better? I'm curious.

Just saw I'm a leading wagon so I either can slam dunk a wolf or get a free ticket out of the game?

Oh my goodness what a goated rep slot.

idk what game yall are reading cause not once did I say I am voting him to save my ass I just think the dude is wolfy af maybe I need to speak in dr. Seuss rhymes and that'll make more sense

How the hell else can someone read what you wrote? You absolutely did say you were voting to save your ass. Why are you denying that now?

[VP Baltar]

UNVOTE:
VOTE: maria

[VP Baltar]

Furtiveglace's reads list is wild, but not in a way that I think makes him scum.

Like, reading through it, I actually think that on the whole, it makes me more inclined to think he is town then probably anything else that the slot has done.

VOTE: Dwlee

Can you explain this a bit? you said earlier you were sketched out significantly because of the speed of the wagon, right? Why dwlee now after resisting earlier?

[VP Baltar]

I was never against the Dwlee wagon. They were kind of my second most preferred elimination.

Who was your first preferred elimination at that time? You weren't voting, I believe.

[VP Baltar]

Is the other group PT (non-council) still dead?

[VP Baltar]

UNVOTE:
VOTE: dwlee

We absolutely should lim here. TSQ has a deeply unexplained townread here and plans to use his execution if we don't move off, or so he says in the supporters thread.

If dwlee flips scum, I'm deeply concerned to say the least. E-2. More votes gogogogo

[VP Baltar]

Ok that’s a really weird kill considering I thought that dude was a likely wolf.

skeeviest day opener goes to...

I still agree that GL and VP made really questionable choices.
Funny though if Mastina never said what they said I was actually planning to Thunderdome VP today cause of their actions towards Maria.

What questionable choices were those? And if you'd like to come at me, feel free.

Gonna restate these posts from Mastina:

>Shea said he had a strong townread on Dwlee.
>Shea said he would ONLY execute to save a strong townread (per the above, this includes Dwlee).
>Shea said he was considering MariaR for the execute. (Per the above, he would only pull the trigger to save a strong townread, so while considering her, he wouldn't actually execute her needlessly.)
>GuiltyLion and VP Baltar, knowing the three above, voted Dwlee up to L-1.
>Per the above, where Shea said he'd execute to save a strong townread, and had a strong townread on Dwlee, and was considering executing MariaR, he executed MariaR to save Dwlee.

Did mastina also mention that I absolutely dismantled her bullshit in the kingsguard thread last night? Her and Shea can cry me a fucking river about how Shea's hand was forced. Those facts don't line up with the fact that Shea began threatening to execute only after I said I was ready to move forward with the day and lim dwlee. Then Shea magically gets mega-townread on a slot that has yet to do much remotely town.

Speaking of which, it doesn't make a lot of sense to me that Shea and Mastina were pushing extremely similar lines of argument when they were not in any shared threads together last night.

Anyway thoughts on what happened, I think Shea Made a poor decision, he admited that the kill on Maria was because he was annoyed by her last posts, but still now that it wasn't an elim but a execute we got hardly any info

I agree with Drapion I would vote Baltar or Guiltylion today

So lemme get this straight. Shea has garbage reads, Mastina is just spam posting the most incoherent shit, drapion is SHEEPING mastina, and you think that's a good route to follow today?

Luke's PR was the best PR to check for scum on the council. His death points to Junko scum IMO

how does it point to Junko? I'm not fully following here.

I'm new here

How about some reads immediately? I'm very interested in your take on the game.

Firebringer did not give datisi money, apparently.

This is scum.

VOTE: firebringer

Are you really making the claim that the best play for town almost always is just lim the lurkers over the people they think are scum?

Like is that seriously your argument?

We should either a) eliminate Dwlee or b) eliminate MariaR scumreaders.

I'm fairly sure Titus is town. This is the line of approach I'd expect from her today. (And what we should have done yesterday!)

Is there valid and reasonable reason for Fire to not give datisi money?

Its called a bank account.

To who you gived money?

i gave it all to luke so that town has no money.

Who did you actually give money to? We know Junko got some because they're claiming to have handed out a potion.

Ugh.
I will follow Lukewarm belief in this:
VOTE: GuiltyLion
don't believe in it, but i was wrong on luke. Sorry luke.

Also a scummy post. The luke kill reads to me like it was intended to shade GL. There's no way anyone should be sheeping Shea after that fucking game throwing bullshit on D1.

The wolves made that kill out of fear of others and needed to go for a desperate play and sorry but “killed because of role” is an absolute fucking joke lmao.

Per my post above, this is exactly what I'd expect scum to say after a Luke kill. If you really think Luke was obviously gunning for GL, why in the hell would GL ever want that kill. It's instantly shading him today. It's also not like Luke would have been a threat last night to scum most likely. So what's the rationale here?

Personally, I think there are scum on the council, and this is thinning the heard to get more scum on there potentially.

Someone doing absolutely zero re-evaluating simultaneously says I'm not reevaluating someone while not reevaluating them himself and then tries to take a shot at my real time evaluation of a person I've been strongly town reading.

lol says the guy who shoots town because he is having a fit he isn't getting his way D1, then doesn't change his reads after it's FACTUALLY CLEAR YOUR READS ARE BAD.

so, literally every read you've had this game?

your reads are fucking trash this game. And then you cry about how people are bullying you when they tell you that. You sound like a clown in this argument with GL.

For example:

I very clearly explained my dwlee read is based on the wagon formation, lack of counter wagons, and my experience that slots that look like this and react like this flip town way more often then scum.

This is the dumbest shit in the world to say as your reason for 100% locktowning dwlee when 10 other players wanted to lim there. What wagon information? You know what people's alignments are? There was no lack of counter wagons. In fact, we followed your lead on several counterwagons yesterday that never got critical mass to reach an elimination. And then generally applying "your experience" of a very vague meta of all scum everywhere is nonsensical. None of these are reasons to townread dwlee in a hard way.

You were a terrible selection for king because you're either scum or so far up your own ass that you're useless.

[VP Baltar]

Scum team in my estimation is something like:

(Shea or Fire), mastina, dwlee, ????, (junko or andante)

[VP Baltar]

@dwlee -- I'd like to hear your take on whether you think people should be hard townreading you for your play in this game so far.

[VP Baltar]

I have never said I was lock town on him.

Oh yeah? neat.

so you mislimmed town for an alleged lean town read. And people should townread you for this? awesome.

[VP Baltar]

And its extremely funny because you're the person who caused me to shoot so go off I guess.

I like to imagine I was Patrick Swayze and you were Demi Moore, and I held that gun in your hand while whispering sweet nothings in your ear.

[VP Baltar]

You tried to ram through the lim.

Did you mention that you never brought up you were likely to use the execution until I said in supporters thread that I was ready to move forward and end the day? You even at one point earlier in the day tried to reassure Maria that it'd be extremely rare circumstances where you'd execute. Mastina was silly enough to bring that post up in the kingsguard thread, so I have to thank her for that.

You never said anything about planning to execute when Dwlee was the top wagon with other competing wagons, but as soon as the momentum was shifting definitively in their direction, you suddenly drew a line in the sand in Supporters.

I came to the thread to tell people the bullshit you were spouting and to encourage us to move forward with the consensus D1 lim, and then you executed.

Now you're saying your dwlee townread isn't even locktown. Your thought process makes zero sense, and if you were town, I'd expect you to take some kind of responsibility and adjust your reads accordingly. Instead, you're harping on the same nonsense you were yesterday, and trying to AtE everywhere about how badly I'm mistreating you.

[VP Baltar]

Luke was the number one proponent of this in the PT.

Was the number one proponent of what?

[VP Baltar]

Shea, if you think I, an adult who is much older than you, gets mad about a game on a low trafficked internet forum, I can assure you that's not the case.

Can you answer any of the several questions I've put to you? You're not engaging with any of the giant holes and contradictions in what you're saying, and instead responding with whatever AtE you're trying to do here.

[VP Baltar]

I don't even care if you take digs at me. That's fine. It's a game and people get passionate playing it. I'm having fun this game, and I think this is a really fun setup.

I don't have anything personal against you, though I do think you're playing very anti-town. I think I've made my point about the issues I have with what you're saying, and you can choose to respond or not. I think the GL wagon is weak, and definitely not where we should lim today.

pedit - "I don't agree" isn't really a response, but whatever. I'm also fine moving on from this conversation because it's clearly not productive. Maybe someone else can ask you the same things and you can answer them.

[VP Baltar]

In other news, I don't see why fire wouldn't fund cop Datisi N1 when fire was, from what I can tell, townreading datisi.

I would like to hear an explanation of the thought process there.

[VP Baltar]

I see no reason for Firebringer and GL not to be mafia together

This ain't it champ.

Datisi or junko, what's up with the night actions? Junko says they got money from fire and sent a potion to datisi. Datisi didn't get anything last night.

I do think fire needs to make this explanation that looks townie in thread please.

[VP Baltar]

I see no reason for Firebringer and GL not to be mafia together

This ain't it champ.

Datisi or junko, what's up with the night actions? Junko says they got money from fire and sent a potion to datisi. Datisi didn't get anything last night.

I do think fire needs to make this explanation that looks townie in thread please.

Datisi didn't get money
Datisi got a potion

Oh my bad. I misread datisi and thought he said he DID NOT get a potion.

Ok, that makes me feel better about you. Datisi, did you drink the potion?

[VP Baltar]

My view of the game has dramatically evolved

Can you walk me through what changed for you overnight?

[VP Baltar]

Has Johnny posted anything anywhere since replacing in?

[VP Baltar]

UNVOTE:
VOTE: dwlee

Pedit -- LLD, can we get some actual participation from you at this point? It would be greatly appreciated

[VP Baltar]

Execution Vote Day Two

With nineteen players alive - it will require ten votes to eliminate a player.

GuiltyLion [5]:

Junkochan, Thestatusquo, Firebringer, mastina, ProfessorDrapion

Dwlee99 [5]:

GuiltyLion, Titus, Datisi, Andresvmb, VP Baltar

Firebringer [2]:

Enchant, furtiveglance,

not voting [7]:

JohnnyFarrar, PenguinPower, Andante, Dannflor, Unowen, Lady Lambdadelta, Dwlee99


Execution Deadline: (expired on 2022-12-02 22:58:35)

You see, my problem with this situation is that every single playera on the Guiltylion wagon has presentes why guiltionlion's actions and overall engage with the Game could come from scum, GL has interacted with many of us and has a clear cut group of people backing him up

While Dwelee's wagon is based on him just lurking and being tunneled on Datisi

What do we learn from killing dwelee? I can't see that

So unless someone comes here with good reasons I'm not changing my vote

First, reminder that dwlee uses they/then.

Second, I feel absolutely a million times more comfortable with the people on the dwlee wagon than I do with a bunch of suspect as fuck people on the GL wagon right now. You're probably the least problematic person on that wagon rn, and that's saying something

[VP Baltar]

Shea needs to pick a new person for laws. Then i need to submit my actions, so yes pls no rush.

Oh pick me Shea!

[VP Baltar]

we should just kill the monarchy and start over.

[VP Baltar]

Weird question, did Andres get his role or was it like, gifted by Shea or something?

Johnny since you’re the Prince, you might want to get a clue on how the mechanics work.

What a boring and non helpful way to answer this question

Yes, Shea as king selected all the council members. Andres is also correct that it would be helpful if you read the setup/rules post, as it's pretty essential to contributing to this game.

[VP Baltar]

1161 and 1193 are MORE bad. And then much later in the game, GL drops 2156 which is a total gem. Given the strength of the read expressed consistently when the choice of King was being made, I’m just flabbergasted that this comes out later in the same day. It’s totally unrealistic.

Your posts made me go back and ISO GL and Luke in the supporters thread because I feel like a lot of their direct interactions were there as well.

I wish I had asked Luke why he got cold feet about GL toward mid-to-end of day. He said it was despite not liking GL's posting about LLD. I had started asking some questions there but it fell off my priority list because it was getting stretched out as a discussion. Kicking myself now.

I mean, maybe you're right on GL looking bad with the Luke interactions, but for me it's almost like "does scum really go THIS hard against a townie D1 and then flip them N1?" That's some very bad scum play if so. That flip made it inevitable that GL faces some level of a serious wagon today.

One other issue that's sticking in the back of my mind is the council questions you raised. Obviously scum want to target town on council so they can try to get their team on there. Luke seems like a weird person to take out if I'm scum thinking about the seats I want. So what's the deal there? Was Luke a safe kill? Maybe. Are scum in a good position in some of the other higher priority seats? That's what I'm being paranoid about.

I don't personally think GL flips scum here and that dwlee would be a much better yeet. I'm starting to think we might have to compromise though because I'm not sure either wagon has enough votes to make it over. I think I'll spend some time at some point this weekend closely reading the GL-Luke interactions to see if it changes anything for me.

[VP Baltar]

Titus, I'm not sure I follow why you think andres is scummy here. You think he has done scummy things or you're just PoEing him?

[VP Baltar]

If GuiltyLion wants to pull what they did then so be it.

They can be aligned and I’ll consider their flip, VP’s Flip.
If I’m wrong on GL I can accept I’m wrong on VP.
But I think both are wolves.

You think scum!GL makes a giant ass exasperated post advocating that I'm town rather than just coming into today like "maybe I'm wrong on VP" and shifts people in that direction, gets me limmed and then claims "see, I'm town because VP is town"

I can understand some paranoia on what I consider the towncore because we don't actually have a scum flip yet to direct us, but I find GL's posting to be very far out of scum range. I'm like 90% confident he's town here and you're not being very honest (with yourself if you're town) about the material before you.

[VP Baltar]

Shea would not be hard to convince to lim me, so I don't see why GL scum would 1) kill Luke and face scrutiny 2) take an unpopular position at that point to defend VP.

GL is very smart and those both seem like losing plays as scum.

[VP Baltar]

i don't think that would work really, because if gl walked in here arguing you're scum, he would not hear the end of it from me.

I mean, if I was scum wanting to mislim me here, I wouldn't argue for it really. I just mean express uncertainty, prop up some of the bad arguments floating out there (such as mastina) and let town do the work.

In my experience, shading town!VP is pretty easy work because some people naturally don't like my style. Then you just need one loud mouth townie to do the dirty work (ala Nero in that one game).

I would definitely be sussed too of GL if that happened, but there is probably a subtlety in approach I might believe is town paranoia. Hard defending me is just like, what is his angle here if he's scum? People already think we are buddies. If he flips read, I'll be eating my hat for sure. So why keep selling it?

[VP Baltar]

can we also talk about Dannflor

the times he's been around I haven't felt bad about his posts but there's starting to be a feeling that he's just profoundly detached from this game in a way that I haven't seen from him as town, idk if the holiday weekend is affecting his availability at all but it feels like he hasn't tried to steer the game in a Dann direction since like mid D1 yesterDay and that's starting to feel off to me

Yeah, I am also waiting for dann to do something. Feel like a number of people were pretty convinced of dann town D1, so maybe they can weigh in.

[VP Baltar]

@Firebringer - do you really think it's an all-town council? why?

Yes, I don’t have the most words for u.
Give me who u doubt outside of Shea
Cause I explained why I won’t have doubt of him

Why is Johnny slot town?

[VP Baltar]

If dwlee flips scum, I will advocate for killing Shea tonight, Math.

[VP Baltar]

What's that mean, Titus?

[VP Baltar]

counters to it have been factually wrong

lol ok sure thing. You didn't even respond to my counters with anything coherent. You cited some posts that you clearly were taking out of context because you were just skimming ISOs looking for anything to back your point, and then when I presented the full context of those posts and how they didn't actually say what you thought they said, you disappeared for the rest of the night. Happy to recreate that for anyone who is even remotely buying your nonsense.

[VP Baltar]

Drapion and Mastina mentioned in the non-supporter PT that this looks like a major scum/perspective slip. From what I understand, GL has been a major player and influence in this game...yet he claims that town is not in control of this game. It feels like there's some cognitive dissonance here and I don't think it can come from town.

GL has not really been influencing the game much since Shea became king. I would say GL has faced resistance on almost every post he's making. Same for me. The rabble rousing crowd just continually makes bad arguments and is trying to outweigh that with volume and noise.

Drapion and Mastina and Shea can sit there and cry wolf (literally) all day long, dwlee is still the correct yeet for today. It should have happened yesterday, but Shea took unilateral action on a town read he's claiming isn't even locktown, and then he and mastina (in separate threads where they couldn't be communicating mind you) each claimed Shea actually had no choice because I was advocating we lim dwlee. Shea did have a choice though. He could have done nothing, which would have been the proper play for the king, instead of mislimming a town.

Those three can tell whatever conspiracy theories they want, facts are facts.

[VP Baltar]

VOTE: Dwlee
Thats E-1 on dwlee.

For clarity sake, can you remind me of your stance on dwlee? Is this a scum vote or a "let's end the day" vote?

[VP Baltar]

Gonna have to disagree that you and GL don't have any influence though, you're both very clearly getting what you want so far.

What have I gotten specifically?

[VP Baltar]

Like, I can agree with Roden that I am having some influence, but that's only through me being very transparently town to people who know my scum game reasonably well. It's not that I have some vast majority handing me things or just dogmatically deferring to me for no reason.

The dwlee flip would be the first thing I could potentially get that I think is a good move in this game. Though I backed Shea for king, that was me compromising given the alternatives. I didn't want Maria executed yesterday, and I did not get a PR.

So I don't think you should confuse me advocating for my point of view with getting my way. I've had to invest probably more political capital into this dwlee flip than i feel confident about because i have not been getting tangible actions going my way. If they flip green, thats an easy vector for scum to attack me. But i have to take some risk to get us moving in what i hope is a better direction. Just my 2 cents.

[VP Baltar]

Dwlee is town because they are engaging in a way that is specifically town for them. Their thoughts aren't on the entire playerlist, but Dwlee has still given more thoughts than they give as scum, in greater detail than they give as scum. Their stances aren't on the entire playerlist but every read Dwlee has given has had nuance to it beyond the level Dwlee can fake as scum. Dwlee's level of activity is town because Dwlee has been actively engaging.

I'd really love to know if Dwlee agrees with this assessment of their scum game. If people thought scum!me couldn't produce an ISO like Dwlee's this game I'd be insulted

I've been skipping Mastina's posts so didn't see this. That's obviously bs

What does that say to you about mastina's alignment?

[VP Baltar]

This is what I have right now: {Titus, VPB, Dannflor, UNOwen, furtiveglance}. Since I don’t know the flip, it’s hard for me to put GL in there, though honestly I probably would otherwise.

i can get ur trying to fill this council with town reads but u realize VPB is gonna vote shea out of game right. If GL gets on he has already said he would too.

Eh, not necessarily. I do think we need to seriously consider it if dwlee flips scum. It is weird to me you have a scum lean on dwlee but think kicking Shea out should not be considered.

[VP Baltar]

Oh hey, GL and I disagree on something

[VP Baltar]

if shea turbovig tomorrow he can literally be killed by kingsguard then.
In what world do u think scum!shea does that. I

The world where his time was already limited. Do max damage as scum and then let your deep wolf buddies carry.

Literally was my scum strategy in KTANE

[VP Baltar]

It is weird to me you have a scum lean on dwlee but think kicking Shea out should not be considered.

How so? Shea can be town and have incorrect reads.

Yes, he definitely could be. Despite what Shea has said, I don't hate him and continue to treat his actions with a level head. If dwlee flips scum, I'd expect him to give his thoughts to andres, who can relay those to the kingsguard and we should discuss accordingly. But to say there was no scum benefit to shea's actions on a dwlee red flip is pretty hard for me to understand

[VP Baltar]

Also if you guys didn't want a king who used the vig, yall should have voted me.
I said i wasn't gonna use it and wouldn't have.
Yall voted for Shea, not me.

I am lierally the only person here who should be discontented with his choices to want a new king, but i don't.
Yall are bad king makers.

Shea was not my ideal. I just didn't want junko and was willing to compromise. I'm not even opposed to a king executing D1, but it was the way it was done that bothers me. Not to mention the target. There is a lot about it that does not make sense from a town pov

[VP Baltar]

i think dwlee trying to point that they planned to interact with stuff as it happens when they are present. The facct they haven't been present means they haven't literally interacted in any meanginful way. Take for instance last pop in, was just asking for interactions but clearly not looking for things to engage with.

already agree with u dwlee is scum. Just think this isn't so much a contradiction as dwlee saying won't participate that much and basically following through with it.

I literally just asked dwlee a question while they were here and got no response.

[VP Baltar]

Dwlee, if you think datisi is scum, why are you not going after him like you did with me in ktane? We had an epic battle there that you won as town. I feel like town you would care about not getting flipped here because it could have bad consequences for town.

I know you're very capable of WIM

[VP Baltar]

if anyone is interested in my responses to something, let me know. otherwise i'm not engaging in this thread muddying.

Why take this stance when you wanted dwlee to post more, and then they finally did?

There's nothing there you wanted to respond to?

[VP Baltar]

Interesting on the Math kill. Datisi, gib cop result.

[VP Baltar]

VOTE: Johnny

Also, get recked, wolf.

[VP Baltar]

good check. we can stop worrying there.

Mastina, play better.

[VP Baltar]

t would be best for Shea to make mastina Prince, right?

GuiltyLion day drinking is highly concerning.

[VP Baltar]

Ace strategy I kept in my pocket last night. So scum couldn't plot.

I think we lim Johnny today, who is LOL OBV SCUM. I assume Shea must install an heir immediately? If so, we have him put our second most likely suspect into that slot and then the Kingsguard overthrows tonight so we disperse power again on the council and kill a potential scum slot.

Scum's plan is very clearly to condense and eliminate PRs, based on the two NKs so far.

[VP Baltar]

i do not agree at all johnny is scum.

who is scum there bud

[VP Baltar]

Ace strategy I kept in my pocket last night. So scum couldn't plot.

I think we lim Johnny today, who is LOL OBV SCUM. I assume Shea must install an heir immediately? If so, we have him put our second most likely suspect into that slot and then the Kingsguard overthrows tonight so we disperse power again on the council and kill a potential scum slot.

Scum's plan is very clearly to condense and eliminate PRs, based on the two NKs so far.

You do know that TSQ has to sacrifice for this to happen right?

Yes, I'm fine with that.

[VP Baltar]

Ur saying that RHAE who thinks so highly of mastina, as scum wants to put MASTINA in charge of this town. We know mastina is town now, you guys don't have excuses for this shit.

Rhae was scum trying to pocket Mastina, who is clearly incapable of having good reads this game.