Star Wars Mafia (Game Over)

[ReaperCharlie]

Hi guys (and gals), I am replacing Konowa.

/tips hat

[ReaperCharlie]

Sorry Kast, I'm interested in finding scum, not debating every element of an argument.

Scumhunting and debating every element of an argument are often one and the same. Because eventually, someone will slip up and try to cover their previous lies with false logic or a circular argument, and when they do, an experienced scumhunter will be ready and waitin' with a hammer and nails.

I'm rather new to this neck of the woods and have not been able to fully read through the topic yet. But I have skimmed the last few pages, and imo you are looking rather suspicious! But I'm leaving Konowa's/my vote as it stands until I have time to catch up and read everything.

Cheers

[ReaperCharlie]

FYI, a C-3PO nameclaim is insufficient to change my mind. Also, if your posts are intentionally mimicking 3PO's speech patterns, kudos, you've been remarkably effective.

...and... Sam, cue the 'Oh my!' and 'We're doomed' sound bytes and stand by.


Btw, kinda random, isn't it? To roleclaim this late, after people have already been calling you 3PO for what... eight or nine pages?

[ReaperCharlie]

And thus, the plot thickens. Now I have to re-read everything. Curse you all.

[ReaperCharlie]

I agree with wolframnhart on his assertion that Wreck Star missing a page isn't exactly grounds for an OMGUS vote on him by 2HC. Especially when he unvoted after he realized his mistake. (And doubly because of Vegas. btw, did you run into Alan or any tigers?)


After a re-read of the thread, I noticed the following things:
- hp [leaves] has posted only seven times, three of them votes: K-7 (policy lynch), WreckStar (random), and Kast (for not voting on anyone yet).
- AlmasterGM's posts have had little to no content (though he has promised to catch up and post by tomorrow),
- Toon Fighter has only posted 4 times. That's even less than bv310... -_-
- ScottBrosius is faux-lurking, only posting fluff, and not really adding anything to the discussion. Possible scumtell?

However, if I had to call anyone out on lurking it would have to be DragonsofSummer.
He has only posted twice, and one of them was a promise to catch up, which he doesn't appear to be following through on (or is he?).


Also, it was Konowa who originally voted for FC Groningen, not me. But as I read posts from wolframnhart

(152)

, DragonPhoenix

(159)

, and totallynotmafia

(160)

, they certainly made FC look a lot more guilty to me. In response, FC posted 161 and 162. This helped him out a little bit in my estimation but I still think he is one of the guiltiest looking. And if the TwoHeadedCyclops bandwagon ends up fizzling out due to the Mason claim with wolframnhart, I suggest more hop onto the FC Groningen wagon and let's learn some more from this fine gentleman.

[ReaperCharlie]

He basically just checked in to throw shit at us without even reading. How is that excused by his state of mind? It says something about his priorities imo, especially if he did it reflexively without much thought.

Often people do things they wouldn't normally do when they are under a certain level of intoxication... but I see what you mean. What I

meant

to say was: that your vote seems more like an omgus/random than something that's clearly supported by either logic or evidence.

Either way, I provided WreckStar with my reasoning for thus far leaving Konowa's original vote on FC Groningen.

----

But now I have some questions for you (both), TwoHeadedCyclops.
- Why should I believe that you're actually a mason role?
- What can you give us to prove that you aren't lying, without breaking Kdub's rules?
- What's to say you aren't just scum, claiming a mason-ish role, and hoping we all believe you because we don't know how many of each kind of role there are?

Can you claim more than your rolename only, plz, C-3PO?

This. Please. ^^^


If, and ONLY if, you can answer these questions to my satisfaction -- and that of the rest of the other townies -- then you can certainly count on my vote and voice to help you from here on out.


However, I would also like the opinion of the following people, none of whom have weighed in since the wolframnhart/TwoHeadedCyclops mason claim, especially those who are

bolded

:

- d3x
-

farside22

- CryMeARiver
-

Dragon Phoenix

-

Wreck Star

- killa seven
- Vel-Rahn Koon
- AlmasterGM
- Scott Brosius
- danakillsu
- totallynotmafia
-

FC Groningen

- semioldguy
- DragonsofSummer
- bv310
- hp [leaves] & ooba have both danced around whether the mason claim verifyable, but have really only posted fluff... please post something more substantial.

----

Also, TwoHeadedCyclops has pointed out that Kast is playing like a lone predator, and has called him out as possibly being Boba Fett, which might in some odd way make sense with the Day Vigilante trait Kast claims to have (?). Either way, I am not sure whether that is a pro-town role or not, so I don't know what to think of that yet...

And either way,

Kast

, if you

are

indeed Boba Fett or a similar role, what gain is there to claim your role during Day One, unless you intend to also

use

your power before night falls? Aren't you just revealing yourself to the scum, to be uselessly picked off? ...Unless of course your power is only good for one day only, or only on Day One. Otherwise, it would be quite pointless to reveal yourself, unless there's something I'm missing, or something that I don't know about your (possible) role.

----

@ hp [leaves]

: How is any mason claim easily verifiable? Especially in this: a totally themed, flavored game. How do we know there aren't multiple mafia teams, multiple mason teams, etc? 2HC and Wolf could easily be a scum duo just trying to screw with our minds.

----

And also, I assume that

IF

TwoHeadedCyclops is in fact C-3PO, that would mean wolframnhart has to be R2-D2! Haha!
"Beep boop beep!" Now

that

would be a funny posting restriction!

[ReaperCharlie]

I guess if I was "role-fishing to the extreme I was doing so out of paranoia. Honestly, I have never played a game with masons before, so I am not familiar with the intricacies of dealing with a mason claim (esp on day 1 when pretty much nothing is set in stone).

I basically just stated what I thought, and asked players (who haven't talked much and/or whose opinions I respect) to weigh in who I thought would have something substantial to say. Sorry I must have missed ooba's non-fluff post, didn't mean any offense by that.

And as you can see, I still haven't changed my vote, so obviously I am just waiting for something to go by and I'm trying to drag things out of others before making up my mind. I feel like I have made my sentiments quite clear in saying that if THC/wrh are in fact masons, that they can count on my vote.

[ReaperCharlie]

Like I said, I haven't really played with a mason role in the game before, so I don't know how a mason would prove their claim or if they'd even have to. I'm not necessarily rolefishing OR rolehunting, I'm just saying,

we don't know what's out there at this point, so it's completely retarded to counter-claim anything, since we don't know what roles exist.

So I wasn't role-fishing/hunting... but since I've never been in this kind of situation in a mafia game before, there may be (and there probably is) something I'm overlooking about it.

I don't feel like I need to justify my questioning of the mason claim. And of course I am interested in/suspicious of the whole Kast issue. Mostly because of the way you've called him out, TwoHeadedCyclops. You say he is acting like a lone predator and have alluded to him being a Boba Fett-ish role. If this is pro-town, it could definitely be of use to us.

And whether it is or not, what does it benefit him to reveal himself? I'm leaning toward Kast not having any special ability, and I think his train of thought was if he tried to put himself out there as possibly killing someone, it would force the masons to claim. This would be useful to scum because now they know who to lynch/NK. And it was useful either way because now we know about the masons, right?

Just trying to stimulate more discussion.

[ReaperCharlie]

Sure any of us can lie about our abilities or lack thereof but it's better to give everybody a chance to prove themselves(Kast's easily can) or just be NKed. Even if that doesn't happen, we're gonna have more information later from claims, meaning more accurate speculation. So basically you should keep your speculations to yourself and save them for later, when it's more advantageous to town than scum.

I hadn't thought of it that way; I will keep that in mind. Thanks, I have never played a game completely blind like this before.

[Reck]

...okay, I don't get the FCG wagon. Can someone explain it to me?

Oh hey, nobody explained the FCG wagon to me. I want to lynch every one of you on it. Okay, perhaps that's a tad bit exaggerated, but seriously... I asked a question, I want an answer.

If I'm not mistaken, the reasoning is basically his one post was full of contradictions, right? But I think his response post does a pretty good job of explaining those contradictions. Plus, the quickness in which his wagon built up speed is quite worrisome.
Essentially, we've been derailed by the mason claim because much of the wagon-building was based around THC's play. Since we're basically

ignoring

that now, I can only look at the FCG wagon and shake my head. While his play has been...lackluster...it's hardly enough to warrant a wagon of this size.

Yes, I somewhat agree... but as I posted earlier, I still get some weird vibes from him.

But along that line, I think I may have just been focused on FCG too much because 'my' vote was already against him when I /replaced into the game.

Unvote

btw, did you run into Alan or any tigers?

No and no. Though I

did

give an Alan-esque speech while standing on our 51st floor wrap-around balcony overlooking the strip =D

Wow, nice digs. Make sure to invite me next time, eh?

[ReaperCharlie]

FC - If you scroll to the top of the page, there's a nice link up there entitled Wiki. Click it on it.

It will change your life.

Haha. +1



...but what's the point of being a hydra if you're just gonna use your real name anyway, Starbuck?

[ReaperCharlie]

FoS: DragonsofSummer

For saying he was going to catch up and post tonight (4 days ago), and never doing it.

[ReaperCharlie]

PS,

Mod, please prod the fuck out of bv310.

bv310 has been prodded.

Please also prod DragonsofSummer.

[ReaperCharlie]

[quote="hp [leaves]I'm not claiming. Me not claiming is way better for the town.

I don't think I can convince Kast to not shooting me (obviously because he wants to shoot a townie) so expect these to be my last words. Good luck town, win this and lynch Kast the SK.

I won't be posting after this so it would make no sense to delay the daykill. Do it now.[/quote]
Ok I'm confused by your reasoning here. If you die, won't we know your role anyway? If so, how is you NOT claiming better for the town in any way?

Scenarios:

1. [GOOD] You don't claim. Kast kills you. We find out you're scum. Yay

2. [BAD] - You don't claim. Kast kills you. We find out you're town. Sh*t

3. [GOOD] You claim (unconvincingly). Kast kills you anyway. You're lying scum.

(Kudos to Kast for not believing you.)

4. [BAD] - You claim (unconvincingly). Kast kills you anyway. You're actually town.

(What the @#$^, hp! Learn how to claim better!!)

OR

5. (?) You claim (convincingly). Kast doesn't shoot you. You're alive but 'in the open' (as whoever you claim to be).

According to your assertion that claiming would be bad for the town, fine, we'll say that option 5 would be bad.

But it's still better than you dying,

AND

Kast wasting his kill on a townie (you).

And if you claim and then Kast kills scum, then good, you are freeing Kast to shoot scum instead of you. Either way, claiming seems like the best option at this point, unless there's something about your role that totally trumps everything I just said, in which case, ignore me entirely.

But somehow I don't think that's the case.

[ReaperCharlie]

I'm not claiming. Me not claiming is way better for the town.

I don't think I can convince Kast to not shooting me (obviously because he wants to shoot a townie) so expect these to be my last words. Good luck town, win this and lynch Kast the SK.

I won't be posting after this so it would make no sense to delay the daykill. Do it now.

ebwop - This was what I was quoting for last post. mb

[ReaperCharlie]

Either he flips town and then I trust he had reason not to do it, or he flips scum and then all of this doesn't really matter because the claim would be false anyway. Again, this sort off looks like rolefishing to me, but since HP will probably die anyway (unless Kast changes his mind again) I don't see how it would benefit you, even if you'd be scum.

Exactly. And sometimes even though I miss the blindingly obvious, I still don't understand if he had that important of a role why he wouldn't reveal it not to get Kast to kill him. Yes, he'd still die, but it'd free Kast up to kill someone equally as guilty, thereby not wasting hp's sacrifice.

Maybe hp's win condition is only met if he's lynched or something, IDFK. Ignore me if this all sounds psycho and over-paranoid to you. But it's what I'm thinking atm. I must be cursed with over-analysis. FML

Either way, I'd like to throw my two cents in here. Scott Brosius in iso has as many posts as me, and has contributed even less. A rolefishing accusation is the only scumhunting he's done so far, and it's an easy claim for scum to make.

Unvote, Vote: Scott Brosius

Uses history to support Reck being scum, but votes elsewhere.

Hmmm....

This is the weakest defense I have ever seen, and yet you don't even back it up with your vote. Sorry but that seems particularly scummy to me.

Unvote, Vote: Scott Brosius

[ReaperCharlie]

Hopefully not. I want to see his alignment, re-read the last 5 pages, and then lynch whoever looks the most evil based on their support/non-support of hp!

[ReaperCharlie]

OMFG WTF? My mind is trying its best to blow up. Remember that part in Cloud City where Han Solo tries to shoot Vader like 6 times, only to realize that he's no longer holding his blaster, Vader's holding it? That's exactly what this reminds me of. Who could do something like this but some crazy Jedi/Sith role? Makes no sense otherwise.

[ReaperCharlie]

This is the weakest defense I have ever seen, and yet you don't even back it up with your vote. Sorry but that seems particularly scummy to me.

Unvote, Vote: Scott Brosius

Why are you apologizing as you vote? It's like you don't believe what you are saying.

GTFO I'm not apologizing there! Let me rephrase: Sorry,

nice try,

but that seems particularly scummy.
lol @ you thinking I am apologizing while voting for you.

SO are you trying to say he is scum reaper?

I'm saying I think he's either a town PR reluctant to reveal his character name because we might figure out other things from that, OR he's a powerful scum PR who can't get dayvigged. I just don't know. This is me thinking in terms of Star Wars though.

What I

did

notice that he seemed to be rather at peace with his supposedly impending death, like he knew he wasn't gonna die or something. Which would also explain why he didn't claim immediately to get Kast to not vig him. But the way he seemed calm didn't seem like a scummy calm, just an impatient calm like Yoda or Obiwan always gets with Luke or something. IDFK I'm a Star Wars geek. lol

[ReaperCharlie]

Kast fired prematurely, without waiting for a majority's approval. A town vig wouldn't act the same way. He also didn't have a strong case against me. Just some OMGUS. He also kept strawmanning that I had no interest in developing/discussing my case. In addition, I don't think a town dayvig would out himself so early. A town vig with limited kills (which I expect a dayvig would have) wouldn't shoot on day 1.

Kast is scum and needs to die.

Unvote, Vote Kast

Vote hp [leaves]

I don't buy it.

I am interested to know why you claim to think a scum-aligned dayvig would reveal himself on day 1? And since we know you're bulletproof already, what's the harm in claiming? I would say you're acting almost stubborn enough for me to believe you're just a terrible player who's a townie, but I think that's a pretty long stretch.

And besides, you are

definitely

not acting 'town' enough to make me think you're

not

scum.

It's likely that you're just desperately trying to use the fact that you're bulletproof as a blind, to trick us into thinking you're have some powerful town role, when in actuality you're just the opposite.

I agree with DragonPhoenix and ooba: I don't buy this charade either.

Vote hp [leaves]

[ReaperCharlie]

Noob question here: Does "one shot cop" means he can more or less act as a vigilante once in the game? If so, he can at least prove his ability.

No to my understanding "one-shot" cop is more equal to "one-time-use" cop ability. Like he gets one investigation in the game.

[ReaperCharlie]

We're playing in Episode 4-6. In this time period, Lando isn't a smuggler (and that's never really an integral part of his character even in the extended universe).

Holy crap. I didn't even think of that. You're right.

Remember that part in Cloud City where Han Solo tries to shoot Vader like 6 times, only to realize that he's no longer holding his blaster, Vader's holding it?

QFT! I remember that. It's possible the mod set it up so that the only person Han COULDN'T shoot was Vader. And if hp has a good chance of being Vader, he has a good chance of having a powerful evil NK. And if he has a powerful evil NK, he should NOT be allowed to survive the day.

I seriously doubt he's the only person Han/Kast couldn't shoot and kill... this sounds like you're reaching too hard for something extraordinary to believe here...

Maybe he didn't want you to OUT ANYMORE PRs.

Yeah but hp[leaves] obviously should have realized that he

would

be effectively outed by Kast trying to kill him, and him not dying. Now he's only wasted one of our shots at killing scum during the daytime. Kast ASKED everyone who he should shoot.

[ReaperCharlie]

Yeah but hp[leaves] obviously should have realized that he

would

be effectively outed by Kast trying to kill him, and him not dying. Now he's only wasted one of our shots at killing scum during the daytime. Kast ASKED everyone who he should shoot.

What I am trying to say is: hp[leaves] should have claimed before Kast attempted to dayvig him. Then we'd have an extra shot at killing scum today. FFS

[ReaperCharlie]

@ReaperCharlie
Even if he claimed before he was shot he would have likely been shot anyway.

Why? Because his claim was unconvincing? Or because you think Kast is a loose cannon? Or both, perhaps?

Maybe I'm just comparing the HP situation too closely with the THC situation, where he and wolf claimed, Kast backed off, and POW, we have two people that we don't have to worry about stabbing us in the back. Three, if you count Kast. And for those saying Kast can't be trusted, sure I understand, I don't entirely trust him yet either, but I'm at a loss as to WHY a scum-day-vig would claim, and then try to nail a guy who everyone agreed was pretty scummy-looking. That is completely beyond me.

Unless, of course, Kast and HP are BOTH scum, and are just playing us all masterfully, which seems 99.9% patently ridiculous.

[ReaperCharlie]

From hp [leaves]

claimed

PoV, that he thinks Kast is an SK, he should expect me to leave a claimed bulletproof alone. If he really thought I was an SK, then he should think I don't care as long as I kill anyone (

he actually posted something to this effect

).

So then why did(/does?) he think you're an SK?

Neither of those is the reason why (though his claim is unconvincing, that isn't why. A convincing claim wouldn't have stopped me from shooting him). It is what I would have done and I don't think Kast is a bad player so I'd think he'd be inclined to act the same as I would. The fact that it was bulletproof that he claimed would have made me want to test it. Otherwise scum could just claim bulletproof when they aren't to get town to look the other way.

The same situation would occur if someone claimed unlynchable. In order to prove the claim, you'd have to try lynching them.

Ok, granted; and even moreso because Kast just confirmed that he'd have dayvig'd HP regardless of his claim.

However, now I am interested to know what you think about HP's allegiance, SoG. Do you think he is scum? If so, why, and if not, why not?

[ReaperCharlie]

Back from V/LA. I had a great weekend!

@Slicey:

I am interested to know why you claim to think a scum-aligned dayvig would reveal himself on day 1? And since we know you're bulletproof already, what's the harm in claiming? I would say you're acting almost stubborn enough for me to believe you're just a terrible player who's a townie, but I think that's a pretty long stretch.

And besides, you are

definitely

not acting 'town' enough to make me think you're

not

scum. I agree with DragonPhoenix and ooba: I don't buy this charade either.

Vote hp [leaves]

Also,

post 335

influenced my decision somewhat. Kast seemed to have thought his vig attempt through pretty thoroughly, and so much pointed to HP being suspicious: his active lurking, apathy shown to pressure from votes/dayvig threat, refusal to claim (even if only to save himself from dayvig); all of this factored into my decision to vote on him later. There was no reason not to claim BEFORE the attempted dayvig, and even less reason after. And further, the claim he presented was far from believable. Why in the heck would Lando be bulletproof?

Once we found out that Kast's daytime kill was unsuccessful, everything seemed to indicate that HP was either scum with some kind of immunity, or a third-party role with the same. At this point, it seemed very clear to me that he was Darth Vader or some rogue Jedi (if third party). As it turned out, he was Boba Fett. Like you, I was also initially confused as to how Boba Fett could survive a dayvig attempt, but reading his lynch flavor (about the Mandalorian armor, and that he was a JOAT, which commonly have a save ability), it cleared this up for me.

Since I was only a one shot, I didn't want to risk investigating a scummy person as it wouldn't help us later in the game and an actual investigative role might investigate them as well. Investigating someone who the town could learn to depend on is only going to be better in the endgame to know SHE is town.

I suppose this makes sense, and I may even be willing to believe you, at least until you or someone else gives me a reason not to. Mostly because I don't think it makes sense for you to so strongly link yourself to farside if you are both scum.

More later, g2g for now.

[ReaperCharlie]

wait, CMAR, you investigated someone you thought was town?

From what I gathered, he investigated someone he hoped just might be town, in order to create another mason-ish-type pair with her, if she

was

in fact town. Like I said in my post directly above, it doesn't really make sense to so strongly link yourself to someone at this point in the game as scum, so I think it's safe to reason that they are both very likely town.

[ReaperCharlie]

In iso, you read as even scummier than normal. Trust me on this one.

You are being as useless as D1.

Vote: bv310

In terms of setup, I agree with farside about the 2 kills more likely being SK/scum rather than 2 scum teams.

Ok, wait a second. So even after all the talk from wolframnhart (confirmed townie) and CMAR (likely townie) about farside's bounty probably being placed by Jabba the Hutt, you

still

just think its mafia/sk instead of 2 mafia? How could that be? Since this is Episode 4-6, it seems pretty obvious that the scum faction would obviously be the

Empire

, in this game. But they don't place bounties on people's heads like smugglers would. And

why

would the Empire and Jabba be on the same side? They weren't in the movies! Your logic regarding this matter makes no sense at all.

The only other explanation IF the two kills last night were by one scum group and an SK, would be that the bounty had been placed by a third-party role of the smugglers (Jabba included) and they had no kill power at night (or one of the three had been blocked/protected). This seems unlikely to me, and though I'm not willing to rule it out, it seems like you are convinced something like this (which is quite a stretch) is the only possible solution.

This also makes me look sideways at farside22, who said:

With only 2 deaths I assume Sk/Mafia till something comes up otherwise. I do agree the bounty on me is something ala Jabba the hut.

Then do you suspect Jabba the Hutt is the serial killer? or a townie role? This doesn't make sense. Besides, other than Boba Fett, I cant think of any good SK roles, flavor-wise, can you?

Can we stop with these soft claims? If you are a role and feel its time to claim, then claim.

This is definitely role-fishing. I was criticized for doing this earlier but mine was to find out how Kast's role could be utilized to help us out, and to keep an (at that time) possibly innocent HP from getting dayvig'd. But this is different. This is definitely the scummy type of role-fishing.


Your logic totally seems like scumlogic, and I think you were trying to launch the bv310 wagon in a hurry before attention gets put on you or your scumchums.

Vote: Scott Brosius

[ReaperCharlie]

it seems pretty obvious that the scum faction would obviously be the Empire, in this game. But they don't place bounties on people's heads like smugglers would.

[nerd hat]Umm... Point of Order. ESB- Vader hires bounty hunters to find the Millenium Falcon.[/nerd hat]

Lmao yeah I remember that... maybe you're right, but I'm not convinced at all. Especially with the whole vibro-blade thing, that reeks of Outer Rim colonies like Tatooine, like somebody said.

Also, I thought I had said that setup speculation isn't going to take us anywhere. Do you disagree?

Yes, I disagree. Knowing for certain (or pretty close) whether there are two scum factions, or one scum faction + sk, can speak volumes as to how people consciously or unconsciously link themselves together. That being said, it makes scum hunting a whole heck of a lot easier.

To be completely fair, flavor can amount to jack shit in games like this... as in, there was a Harry Potter game run where Harry, Ron, and Hermoine were the scum. Flavor can fit however it needs to... so don't just assume the Empire are the baddies.

Uhhh... I am taking from what I know of Kdub to mean that he's not gonna make some broken arse setup like that. That's retarded. You are making less and less sense the more you post.

FoS: Wreck

(Note: I am not changing my vote to Wreck because I believe the Scott Brosius wagon has more potential to reveal scum, and I definitely believe that SB is scum)

This is definitely the scummy type of role-fishing.

I disagree. Scott Brosius's "rolefishing" will not help scum in any way. All I want, and I think all he wants, is to get enough about CMAR's role PM to confirm whether it makes any sense at all. This is what town did D1 and it worked perfectly.

It was only 'necessary' on D1 because of Kast's threat to HP, who at the time we thought that IF he was town, claiming would probably save him. It doesn't make nearly as much sense now.

I agree with Scott. CMAR, if you're going to claim that much of your role, you should give us the name of your role so that we can confirm whether that fits. Until then, I'm suspicous of you for claiming without any real pressure.

vote: CMAR

. And bv310 always does this, so no one should be voting for him.

Are you defending bv310?

[ReaperCharlie]

I'll read more later, just checking the few new posts for now (Starbuck is right, DragonsofSummer, VRK, Toon Fighter, Scott, bv310, and quite a few others need to post more often)


ToonFighter, what sense AT ALL does it make to claim townie PR as scum? It doesn't. It brings you way too far out in the open and into the center of attention. I don't see CMAR as scum for the simple reason that he's obviously not that ballsy, especially after the way he 'got his dandruff up' at wolframnhart's questioning. Unless he is playing us masterfully, he is LIKELY a townie.

Not to mention, it'd be a waste of a townie, a waste of a lynch, and a waste of discussion time (our deadline is May 22, no use lynching before we use at least a good portion of that).

FoS: ToonFighter

[ReaperCharlie]

@mod:

Btw, here is DragonsofSummer's ENTIRE iso:

vote ooba

just cause.

Sorry I have been absent guys, will read the game and post later tonight.

sorry about absence after promising a post, will post tonight.

He just comes back every 5 days and says 'Sry I'll post more.'
I don't think prods will work. Just replace him, please. Thx.

Love,
ReaperCharlie

[ReaperCharlie]

I request more votes on Dana right now.
Doesn't say why he doesn't believe the claim and asking others for affermation on his "reasoning" to not believe the claim even with a bread crumb attached.

If you looked closely, you'd have noticed that

post 574 (CMAR)

and

post 575 (dana)

happened within seconds of each other and there's no way dana could have read post 574 before posting 575. Also, it happened during the switch to another page, giving dana even a little

more

excuse to not see the breadcrumb post until

after

posting 575. And to boot, in

post 577 (dana)

, after shown the evidence of the breadcrumb, dana immediately unvotes.

This could just be danascum looking desperately for a reason to get out of a hot spot, don't get me wrong. But from the conviction with which dana is arguing, I am

somewhat

more inclined to believe that dana and CMAR are BOTH townies. CMAR has admitted that he's never liked dana, and that's a reason I think he's tunneling. It didn't really make sense for danascum (if in fact that's what he is) to THIS prominently push for a roleclaim (after he'd already been called out on it), and that's one reason why I think he's town.

So I have some questions:

@ dana: CMAR rings clear town to me, and HAS ever since coming out as an investigator. The claim only helps confirm it for me. WHY do you think his unsolicited initial claim was scummy? Other than the reason d3x(?) gave for wanting to clear farside from a lynch to , which I feel has been sufficiently rebutted. What makes you think CMAR is scummy?

@ CMAR: why have you 'never liked' dana? is it because of the way he has been acting in this game specifically, or does it go beyond that?

And one more question for dana:

*headdesk
I didn't want you to reveal the Alliance JOAT thing yet, CMAR. I just wanted your rolename.
As a side note, who believes him? Should Yoda be a JOAT in this trilogy? And if there is a real Yoda, he should probably counter-claim, because I don't really believe CMAR.

Well, why not? CMAR's claimed role coupled with the claimed abilities seems definitely believable... after all, Yoda was pretty much a gangster at everything force-related. CMAR also hinted at the fact that he never said he wasn't still a PR, in response to Toon Fighter's random (and

scummy

) call for a CMAR lynch, quote is below (found hidden in the murky depths of his

gargantuan post 564

):

2) I never claimed. Nor did I ever say I was now vanilla.

Imo, that fits right in with what CMAR claimed afterwards, saying he was a JOAT.


[steals d3x's nerd hat] And btw, 'Force Sensitivity' definitely sounds spot on, flavor-wise. [/gives d3x's hat back]

Ugh I always hate voting Dana as someone previously mentioned because he is always scummy regardless of role.

Your defense of dana is noted.

Note:

I have a sneaking suspicion that lies elsewhere, with something that is perhaps far more menacing than either party in this 'spat' (if you'd call it that), and though one could say it applies to this situation somewhat, it doesn't apply to the main individuals in this confrontation. That being said, I'll save this thought for a later date, when I've had more time to iso the person(s) in question and formulate a more concrete opinion and argument, at which point I will reveal my suspicions and reasons for my suspicions at a more opportune and less distracting moment.

[ReaperCharlie]

@ DoS: Thanks for posting. Finally.

ReaperCharlie has an extremely convoluted post with one good reason for voting Scott, and that is rolefishing.

Really? Maybe if you paid attention to the thread instead of just lurking for weeks and coming in with some halfway-reasoned post because you haven't read the topic yet, you'd see more of what I was talking about. Scott has been acting scummy since Day 1, and only now are people noticing. Actively lurking for weeks, rolefishing, relying on meta references in defense of other players, crummy-sounding arguments. I am almost convinced that Scott is scum; and I'll eat my hat if he's not. ...I'll eat ALL of your hats. I'm not the only one who sees it.

ReaperCharlie's defense of dana is noted. But the point about timelines is valid.

I wasn't

defending

dana in my post, I was merely pointing out the timelines, like you said, and noting that once she read everything, she unvoted CMAR. I have seen many cases in previous games where two townies think they have a case against each other, and

As a matter of fact, before CMAR's yoda claim and breadcrumb reveal, dana was acting

quite

suspicious, pushing a lynch for someone who's obviously claimed town without much pressure at all. And now, she is lurking. How convenient.

So either CMAR is a freakin' rabbit, where one or two people exert so much pressure in his mind that he somehow can't wait to bust his load and reveal his Yoda claim,

or

he's scum (with a similar modus operandi). Obviously, I tend to think it's the former, because it makes no sense for him to reveal so unexpectedly, otherwise. So I asked questions to them both (CMAR/dana) and I am still waiting for an answer.

---

@Scott

587

- Thank you Scum.

Yep. I noticed that too. If either the Scott or dana bandwagon takes off, and one of them flips scum, we should lynch the other the following day - hopefully killing two birds with one stone.

@RC- What's teh deal with the 'Note'? I'm not asking you to give the details, but why are you making vague Notes for us to read without any information in them?

Just letting people know that I'm not tunneling on the CMAR sitch; I have my eyes and ears elsewhere as well. Happy scumday btw! <3

---

Semioldguy is beginning to ping on my scumdar... brightly.

---

@ mod: VRK also hasn't posted for 2 weeks. Prod/replace him, please. I can't get a proper read on someone if they lurk to the point of invisibility.

---

I also need to appologize for my lack of activity. Sorry everyone.

Apology accepted... for now. Disappear again, though... *shakes fist*

[ReaperCharlie]

Yep. I noticed that too. If either the Scott or dana bandwagon takes off, and one of them flips scum, we should lynch the other the following day - hopefully killing two birds with one stone.

Setting up tomorrow's lynches doesn't sit well with me. Seems like scum-planning more than anything.

Um. No. Listen to yourself. You are straight up refusing to explain how your actions could be pro-town in any way. Nearly every time someone says you are scummy, you just respond back with a post that ignores their point, and make a comment about why

they

are scummy! Why not quote the part of my post that listed the scummy things you've been doing:

Scott has been acting scummy since Day 1, and only now are people noticing. Actively lurking for weeks, rolefishing, relying on meta references in defense of other players, crummy-sounding arguments. I am almost convinced that Scott is scum; and I'll eat my hat if he's not. ...I'll eat ALL of your hats. I'm not the only one who sees it.

...and actually

address

the accusations brought against you? Stop beating around the bush.

As for my defense of dana, I am simply saying (as someone else said as well) I offered that in my experience, dana always acts very scummy regardless of role.

Dana seems more

frantic

to me than anything. whether that's scumfrantic or townfrantic, I don't know at this point because she isn't trying to nail CMAR to the wall any longer. I don't know her reasons for bulldogging on that for so long, but I am still very suspicious of her for not letting it go earlier. It makes no sense for CMAR to claim that much if he were scum.

But you are defending her because of... her meta?! That's basically pointless! Any half decent Mafia player can act differently from one game to the next. The only reason

I

spoke up at all for her is because she was getting nailed for not believing CMAR's breadcrumb. This was obviously a false premise, because as soon as she saw the breadcrumb she unvoted.

If

you have any

valid

defense for any of this (which I don't think you do)... speak up now.




@ CMAR and dana: You should still probably answer my questions. Preferably sooner than later. Thanks a mil.

[ReaperCharlie]

ReaperCharlie's defense of dana is noted. But the point about timelines is valid.

I wasn't

defending

dana in my post, I was merely pointing out the timelines, like you said, and noting that once she read everything, she unvoted CMAR. I have seen many cases in previous games where two townies think they have a case against each other, and

Whoops, forgot to end a sentence in my post at the top of the page, it should be this:

ReaperCharlie's defense of dana is noted. But the point about timelines is valid.

I wasn't

defending

dana in my post, I was merely pointing out the timelines, like you said, and noting that once she read everything, she unvoted CMAR. I have seen many cases in previous games where two townies think they have a case against each other, and

they are at each other's throats so long that most of the town ends up believing one of them are actually scum. Then, the real scum take this opportunity to wagon and/or hammer them.

Not actually saying this is happening in this particular circumstance, but it's relatively common.

My apologies.

[ReaperCharlie]

And in response to everything else, hold those thoughts. Huge essay due midnight last night and big presentation tomorrow. Will answer everything in a day or two.

... *sigh* ... Good luck.

When you return, feel free to look up my questions for you, and answer them.

Just don't forget... because I

won't.

[ReaperCharlie]

Posting in response to prod. And since you brought it up Farside, the "read" on Wreck is more of the "Guilty investigation" variety. Not sure why I didn't say it before.

Um... pretty sure this is an all-around WTF. Please start explaining any time now.

[ReaperCharlie]

I am able to sense a player's alliance to the force. I determined wreckstar to be evil.

Your result used the word "evil"? And what does alliance to the force mean? I think "Dark side", "Light side" make more sense as a result .. Need a bit more clarity on this ..

What ooba said. ^^^ Need more clarity on this please. 'Evil' or 'good' is not enough for me to believe you at this point. I'm not sure, but I think you were you trying to breadcrumb your investigational capabilities in post 432, without actually telling us that you had hidden reason to suspect [all of his/her posts in iso]. Am I right?

Also, like wolf said, I have

no

idea why you claimed! WTF? The only reason I can conceive is that the current bandwagons appear to be going slightly nowhere and are stagnating with time. I honestly hope you have a good reason for revealing yourself, if you are in fact town.

[ReaperCharlie]

[Starbuck]

Posting in response to prod. And since you brought it up Farside, the "read" on Wreck is more of the "Guilty investigation" variety. Not sure why I didn't say it before.

Elaboration would be awesome, especially because of what you said earlier today in this post.

In iso, you read as even scummier than normal. Trust me on this one.

So if it was an "investigation", why would you hold back and not push this "information" sooner? Right now, I disbelieve bv because of the conveniency.

Uh, wait a second... just read this.

How can you

disbelieve

bv310? He's either right, or he's lying, but YOU don't have an opinion on that! Whether you're town or you're scum, you know for

absolute sure

whether he's lying! My scumdar is

shooting sparks

... I think it's about to

catch fire 0_o

Unvote; Vote: Wreck Star

[ReaperCharlie]

Ok, here is what I've got for a re-cap on the main stuff we know right now:

Knowns:

-

wolframnhart (

R2-D2

)

and

TwoHeadedCyclops (

C-3PO

)

are

Alliance Masons

(confirmed by THC flip on Night 1).
-

Kast

used a Day Vigilante power on Day 1.

Semi-Knowns (claims):

-

CMAR

claims investigation on

farside 22

. Result: 'determined to be

good

'.
-

bv310

claims investigation on

Wreck Star

. Result: 'determined to be

evil

'.

Both investigation claims are unconfirmed, but results are similar enough, and both claims are believable enough. This could be an elaborate scum attempt to capitalize on an appeal to probability, but (again, an appeal to probability) that scenario is pretty unlikely. Take what you will.

Role Claims:

wolframnhart

-

R2-D2

(Alliance Mason)

. Role is

confirmed

by THC flip night 1.

Kast

-

Han Solo (Day Vigilante)

(no alignment specified, Alliance alignment assumed based on rolename claimed).

Day Vigilante power is confirmed.

CMAR

-

Yoda

(Alliance Jack-of-All-Trades)

.

bv310

-

Luke Skywalker

(unspecified investigative role) (no alignment specified, Alliance alignment assumed based on rolename claimed).

Flips

:
hp [leaves] flipped as

Boba Fett

(Neutral Survivor/Jack-of-All-Trades)

.
totallynotmafia flipped as

Crix Madine

(Alliance Townie)

.
TwoHeadedCyclops flipped as

C-3PO

(Alliance Mason)

.


Anybody have anything to add to this that I missed?

[ReaperCharlie]

Waitwaitwaitwaitwait... whoa.

*brain turns inside out*

...


Ok... Wreck Star,

after reading back, I realize that bv310 hadn't claimed Luke Skywalker when you posted the 'I disbelieve you' thing, but why didn't you straight up say he was

lying

in the first place? That still sounds super scummy that you said that at all, and especially

how

you said it.

And another thing. I don't see AT ALL how LUKE SKYWALKER could be a fake claim. Ironically, it was you yourself who remarked (pages and pages ago, not gonna find it) that in Harry Potter mafia that Harry, Ron, and Hermione were the scum group, and not to base anything on a flavor judgement and assuming the mod won't be a bastard. Well, here I am, basing my opinion on a flavor judgement again, against your sage words of wisdom.

I simply don't see how Luke Skywalker could be told that Chewbacca is evil, unless he's either LYING (about his role AND his result) or whether he is telling the truth about both, but the result was just redirected or blocked or something.

@WS:
I object 10 folds! If you tracked X player to Y house and he was found dead that night why the hell would you not at the very least fos him at the start of the day and not many pages later where I am arguing with him?

Um... my first inclination would be...

maybe

because that'd be pretty obvious to do it randomly right off the bat, and then the scum would just have ANOTHER PR to target. And since I think Wreck (respectively) are both a lot smarter than CMAR, I wouldn't think they would reveal themselves that obviously.

@ WS again:

I

do

agree with farside though, I don't exactly understand why it took you so long to claim, other than that . I understand you'd rather hint at it and hope the smart ones of us would pick up on it, but... well... actually, yeah I probably would have done it like you did, too. You are definitely not off my scumdar, though.

Speaking of my scumdar, I recall saying in my

post 625

that Semioldguy was beginning to ping brightly. This whole chain of events either shows that I wasn't wrong about Semioldguy and that he IS scum, or that WS is randomly making a wild accusation. But somehow I don't believe that.

@ semioldguy:

I didn't target TwoHeadedCtclops last night.

Really.

Ok, so are you saying you DID target someone last night? You are the one in the spotlight now. Time to shine or die. This seems like a very similar way to battling accusations that Scott Brosius has, i.e. giving the least possible info, making (purposefully?) nebulous statements, and leaving us to try to figure out all the possibilities of all the things that you

could

mean. With a defense that weak, I am having trouble disbelieving Wreck Star's claim. You're gonna have to give me more than that.

And that's not all...

Vote: Wreck Star

Trying to slip a vote in under the radar?

Where is your reasoning?

I don't see

any.

Unvote; Vote Semioldguy

[ReaperCharlie]

Also... wtf?

Farside, what changed from your

post 675

to your

post 681

? Seems like a rather quick turnaround. I know you're supposed to be a confirmed townie and all (according to CMAR's investigation) but I don't see how you just changed your mind that easily.

It almost seems like you are talking in another private place to someone else, and THEY changed your mind. You are looking very suspicious TO ME at this point, I don't know if anyone else agrees with me. It'd also make sense, because if CMAR's investigation was redirected, you could actually have been scum and he would have been town.

$#1+! I don't know which investigation claim to believe or disbelieve now. Though I agree with your vote, obviously.

[ReaperCharlie]

Reaper Charlie stop the rolefishing please.

I'm not. I'm asking semioldguy to explain what I interpret to be an apparent scumslip.

@ReaperCharlie
Is it somehow important to know who I did target or if I targeted anyone at all? Are you trying to get excess claims out of the day? Wreck Star is lying, because I didn't target TwoHeadedCyclops last night. I voted them because there is a claimed guilty result.

What?! You're doing the same thing that Scott Brosius keeps doing: trying to use my own argument about why YOU are scum to suggest (albeit feebly) that

I

must be scum! To answer your question, YES it's important to know whether or not you are LYING or not!

I'm not trying to get excess claims! Our PRs are outing themselves left and right, so it's already WAY too late to try to protect all of them!

I personally think they're morons (especially CMAR) for outing themselves. But that aside, you must admit that there have already been quite enough claims already to deduce that

someone

is lying. So who is it?

Here is my train of thought:

Wreck claims he tracked you to THC, and THC is obviously dead. You could either be an investigative role, or you could be scum and have killed him. I completely fail to see why you would have

investigated

him, since he and wolf were obviously masons. After the mason claim, I doubt that there was

any

reason to investigate THC, so I am assuming that

if

Wreck Star is telling the truth, therefore you must have killed THC last night.

The reason I believe WS over you at this point is because he/she did not previously seem especially scummy to me, like you DID, other than they were just acting like a hydra and not even really trying to post like each other. That read as scummy to me because he/she seemed two-faced. But I wrote that off according to them being a hydra.

So... is Wreck

scum

? Quite possibly. I believe bv310 is telling the truth about being Luke. However, due to:

1. Wreck's strong counter-claim to bv's accusation,
2. Wreck calling SoG out (with a story that seems way too calculated to be random, and IS backed up by his past posts),
3. me already thinking SoG was scum previously (

post 625

),
4. ESPECIALLY because of SoG's your laughably feeble defense of Wreck Star's accusation,

I'm therefore

inclined

to think that bv310's result was phony. If it wasn't for all those things,

I would obviously still be on the Wreck Star wagon!

Bonus:

I actually trust you surprisingly.

You were also a convenient target for any framer so it makes sense.

Unvote; Vote: SOG

Frankly I didn't like Semi's comment about not targetting THC. He was too cool of a customer being accused by someone.
I know if someone would accuse me of something I didn't do I would be all like oh hell no you lying sack of scum.
As well as telling everyone to please lynch scum.

This seems like exactly what Wreck is doing. And exactly like what SoG is NOT doing. Which is

ABSOLUTELY

why my vote is for Semioldguy and not Wreck.

Another part of me is starting to wifom things due to some discussion on 2 mafia groups (still unconfirmed) bv's results and WS's claim.

I agree with you, the thought of multiple scumgroups keeps coming up in my head too. All of the sides are pretty heated, and it seems pretty certain that at least one of them are outright lying. I am reasonably convinced of bv310's honesty, however. He just might have been redirected. But out of Wreck and semioldguy, obviously SoG is the one who I think should be lynched first, because that tells us more.


Ok, I think I've calmed down now... *deep breaths*...



... And I still haven't forgotten about you, Scott Brosius. It's almost like you decided to try keep his nose clean and not post anything until my attention of you died down. Post your opinions NOW please. You are still a prime suspect in my mind.

[ReaperCharlie]

[Starbuck]

On bv310

Also, notice how bv has faded back into the shadows again? Like him and SOG were trying to play a gambit.

I have definitely noticed. SoG, Scott, and bv310 all seem to lurk and unlurk whenever it's convenient for them.

On ReaperCharlie

after reading back, I realize that bv310 hadn't claimed Luke Skywalker when you posted the 'I disbelieve you' thing, but why didn't you straight up say he was lying in the first place? That still sounds super scummy that you said that at all, and especially how you said it.

And another thing. I don't see AT ALL how LUKE SKYWALKER could be a fake claim. Ironically, it was you yourself who remarked (pages and pages ago, not gonna find it) that in Harry Potter mafia that Harry, Ron, and Hermione were the scum group, and not to base anything on a flavor judgement and assuming the mod won't be a bastard. Well, here I am, basing my opinion on a flavor judgement again, against your sage words of wisdom.

I simply don't see how Luke Skywalker could be told that Chewbacca is evil, unless he's either LYING (about his role AND his result) or whether he is telling the truth about both, but the result was just redirected or blocked or something.

I said it that way on purpose. Why? Because I knew that he was lying, but I wanted to see how far he could trip over his own feet.

I don't think Luke could be a fake either. I don't understand why he could be told that us (as Chewbacca) is evil. BUT I've played in other Kdub games (namely The Lion, The Witch & The Wardrobe) where one of the siblings was a fakeclaim for the scum.

I disagree that such a prominent character is used as a fakeclaim in this game. I just disagree. However, I somehow believe your claim, like CMAR already said. And the only explanation for bv310's results then would be either they were tampered with by someone in a scumgroup, or he could be lying as town in order to lynch someone he tried to start a bandwagon on, on Day 1. I sort of also think that's really unlikely (yes, I know, appeal to probability, sue me), so I either conclude that SoG is lying through his teeth, or YOU are lying through your teeth.

And you are definitely the more believable out of the two, and SoG is completely avoiding the topic and active-lurking like noobscum. Which, again, is ABSOLUTELY why my vote is for him and not you.

On semioldguy

Is it somehow important to know who I did target or if I targeted anyone at all? Are you trying to get excess claims out of the day? Wreck Star is lying, because I didn't target TwoHeadedCyclops last night. I voted them because there is a claimed guilty result.

If you believe this about our accusation, why would your defense be

I didn't target TwoHeadedCtclops last night.

instead of "I didn't target anyone last night"?

QFT. ANSWER THIS, SoG! My scum-o-meter is bursting into a

mushroom cloud

about you.

@ Kast: when you come back tomorrow, DAYVIG Semioldguy, plzthx

In the mean time, more people vote for SoG... FFS!

[ReaperCharlie]

Ooba is so very right. Although I wouldn't mind a Reaper Charlie lynch, I mean it's so blatantly obvious he's trying to save his scumbuddy (this is if Wreck flips scum, which I believe they will). But yeah, killing Wreck is such a good idea. Cuz even if he's town, we'll pretty much know there is a mafia framer due to bv getting a guilty on them and that Semi is liar and we lynch him. If Wreck is scum, and a tracker scum, then there is a chance that semi is lying and did target THC. My gut is telling me semi is telling the truth, and thus I'm much more inclined to a Reaper Charlie lynch.

I can't believe I'm saying this, but hurry up and get here Kast. >_>

What?!?

Never

have I defended Wreck Star. In fact, quite the opposite!

Read here:

Posting in response to prod. And since you brought it up Farside, the "read" on Wreck is more of the "Guilty investigation" variety. Not sure why I didn't say it before.

In iso, you read as even scummier than normal. Trust me on this one.

So if it was an "investigation", why would you hold back and not push this "information" sooner? Right now, I disbelieve bv because of the conveniency.

Uh, wait a second... just read this.

How can you

disbelieve

bv310? He's either right, or he's lying, but YOU don't have an opinion on that! Whether you're town or you're scum, you know for

absolute sure

whether he's lying! My scumdar is

shooting sparks

... I think it's about to

catch fire 0_o

Unvote; Vote: Wreck Star

and here:

I don't see AT ALL how LUKE SKYWALKER could be a fake claim. Ironically, it was you yourself who remarked (pages and pages ago, not gonna find it) that in Harry Potter mafia that Harry, Ron, and Hermione were the scum group, and not to base anything on a flavor judgement and assuming the mod won't be a bastard. Well, here I am, basing my opinion on a flavor judgement again, against your sage words of wisdom.

I simply don't see how Luke Skywalker could be told that Chewbacca is evil, unless he's either LYING (about his role AND his result) or whether he is telling the truth about both, but the result was just redirected or blocked or something.

and here:

@ WS again:

I

do

agree with farside though, I don't exactly understand why it took you so long to claim, other than that . I understand you'd rather hint at it and hope the smart ones of us would pick up on it, but... well... actually, yeah I probably would have done it like you did, too. You are definitely not off my scumdar, though.

and here:

Here is my train of thought:

Wreck claims he tracked you to THC, and THC is obviously dead. You could either be an investigative role, or you could be scum and have killed him. I completely fail to see why you would have

investigated

him, since he and wolf were obviously masons. After the mason claim, I doubt that there was

any

reason to investigate THC, so I am assuming that

if

Wreck Star is telling the truth, therefore you must have killed THC last night.

and here:

So... is Wreck

scum

? Quite possibly. I believe bv310 is telling the truth about being Luke. However, due to:

1. Wreck's strong counter-claim to bv's accusation,
2. Wreck calling SoG out (with a story that seems way too calculated to be random, and IS backed up by his past posts),
3. me already thinking SoG was scum previously (

post 625

),
4. ESPECIALLY because of SoG's your laughably feeble defense of Wreck Star's accusation,

If it wasn't for all those things,

I would obviously still be on the Wreck Star wagon!

Like you said, Ooba IS right. I very much believe that one (or both) of SoG and Wreck are scum! I've said that multiple times, and I stand by it.

I am suspicious of you saying that I am trying to defend Wreck Star, because I am obviously not... Think about it: If I was scumbuddies with EITHER Wreck or SoG, the best option would be to completely and totally

bus

them, which is exactly what I

would

have done, and WOULD be doing, right? Would you not agree that as scum it would be smarter to sit back and watch how this plays out silently?? That is exactly what Scott Brosius is doing!

I am trying to help the discussion along and figure out who the bad guys are, that's the only way I can win in this game! If my trying to jump in and help figure stuff out makes you think I am scum, you are completely wrong.

---

In case my posts haven't been clear until this point (which is quite possible because I obviously post large posts compared to many of you guys, due to my obsessively thinking way more into these things than most guys would), here is a small sum up of what I am thinking at this point about each individual in the game.

Scumlist:

semioldguy - very likely scum (behavior)
Wreck Star - very likely scum - claimed investigation results
Scott Brosius - very likely scum (behavior)

Suspicious of:

d3x - Seems very wily, posts in spurts but lays low when things flare up. Possible scum.
Toon Fighter - Seems like he's lurking. Possible scum.
danakillsu - Tried too hard to crucify CMAR a few pages ago. Possible scum.
Slicey - Seems surprisingly like me, eager to contribute and scumhunt. Getting weird vibes though, don't know why.
FC Groningen - Still suspicious of him from Day one. Has gotten very quiet, possibly to avoid another wagon.

Neutral read:

ooba - Seems well-intentioned enough, and seems townish to me.
Dragon Phoenix - Ditto ooba, but needs to post more.

Near-confirmed (claimed) town:

farside22 - shows as townie by claimed investigation results (though some things she's done have really rubbed me the wrong way)
Kast - claimed town, known dayvig ability
CryMeARiver - claimed townie, claimed investigation results
bv310 - claimed townie, claimed investigation results

Town:

wolframnhart

Too Inactive to read:

Vel-Rahn Koon
AlmasterGM
DragonsofSummer

---

In conclusion:

Here, see for yourself. (This is assuming there are two scum groups and that at least one IF NOT BOTH of Wreck and SoG are scum)

Scenario 1:

Vig Wreck first, with a possible lynch of SoG.

Option 1: Wreck flips town

- We won't know anything about SoG, but we'll know that bv310's investigation results were wrong.

Option 2: Wreck flips scum

- We won't know anything about SoG, but we'll know that bv310's investigation results were right.

Scenario 2:

Vig SoG first, with a possible lynch of Wreck.

Option 1: SoG flips town - We'll know Wreck is lying scum, and bv310's investigation results were right. Lynch Wreck.

Option 2: SoG flips scum - We'll know Wreck is telling the truth, and bv310's investigation results could EITHER be right, OR have been interfered with.

Either way, I feel that Kast killing SoG first will reveal more information. Cuz if Wreck is vigged and flips scum, it won't tell us

anything

about SoG. But if SoG flips scum, due to Wreck's claim we'll have to at least believe that part.

My vote is still for SoG to get vigged

first

, and

that's

why. Not because I have any special feelings for Wreck, but because

we will learn nothing

by vigging Wreck first.

I would rather lose someone who is scum/VT (SoG) than someone who is scum/PR (Wreck) first. If Wreck is a town PR like he claims, then we would be boning ourselves by killing him first.

To put it simply, in my eyes it's better to kill off a VT

and

find a scum (score one for the good guys), then kill off a town PR and have inconclusive evidence about the

other

possible scum (score one for the bad guys).

Either way, this is a great situation for us because I am dead sure that one if not both of them are scum... so... score one for the good guys either way.

Anyway, these are my reasons. I'm probably not gonna post again about this subject until after Kast shoots someone and they flip, cause I have other games to catch up in and I have been severely neglecting those =\


P.S. I promise to post shorter posts from now on.

[ReaperCharlie]

Ok, first off, apparently I wasn't thinking clearly last night. In my defense it was late and I was tunneling somewhat on SoG and certain aspects of Wreck, instead of seeing the big picture. I think I just tunnel on whatever I'm thinking at the moment, even if it's too narrow-sighted. I swear, the most obvious things miss me sometimes. Apologies.

Moving on, to address ooba's response to my case-by-case analysis:

- Given that there are two scum groups,

Scenario 1:

Vig Wreck first, with a possible lynch of SoG.

Option 1: Wreck flips town

- We won't know anything about SoG, but we'll know that bv310's investigation results were wrong.

If Wreck flips town, we know SoG is scum. Why would a town Wreck lie about his result?

... Apparently I didn't even

think

of Wreck's tracking results being true if he flipped. I think I was thinking (for some odd reason) that he false-claimed to be a tracker just to try to shift the blame elsewhere, instead of relying on his name claim to save him. Which would make sense as scum. But you're right, it certainly doesn't make sense as town. ooba 1, RC 0

Option 2: Wreck flips scum

- We won't know anything about SoG, but we'll know that bv310's investigation results were right.

What about the case where Wreck flips tracker scum? You know that SoG is opposite scum for sure.

Didn't think of this possibility either. Which makes me realize in hindsight (as I'm somewhat dyslexic sometimes) that I was thinking that Wreck would be lying about his role if he was town, but I didn't even think about the possibility of him telling the truth about his

abilities

as scum. ooba 2, RC 0

So both option 1's of Scenario 1 and 2 give the same amount of information. I think option 2 of scenario 1 gives more info due to the possibility of Wreck turning up tracker scum.

Ok it should be apparent by now that I didn't think about Wreck flipping tracker scum. Which thinking about it, would make a lot of sense.

[ReaperCharlie]

I don't like Scott's vote at all.

Me either. Scott has stunk of scum to me from Day 1. He still hasn't answered my questions either.

What's with all the votes? We have a day vig to take care of the main suspect!

True. Either scum trying to avoid the dayvig getting a shot off or impatient people. Either way, we should really hold back until Kast gets here.

Um, you're voting too, bv310. lol

[ReaperCharlie]

Kast was V/LA until May 2. It's now May 3.

Just throwing that out there.

[ReaperCharlie]

V/LA

until 7/5

sorry guys, got a project in Germany.

If you're gonna be gone that long, why not just ask for replacement?



Or... wait... are you from one of those backwards countries where 7/5 means May seventh? *sigh*

[ReaperCharlie]

Well Slicey, I think I (and ooba) explained pretty clearly earlier that no matter which of them flips scum or town, that they're both likely scum.

And NO, by NO means did I say I thought Wreck was town. If you thought that you must either have not read the last few pages, or you have severe comprehension problems. And I definitely hope it's the latter, because if you have not read the last few pages, I would expect you to not have a vote down on either Wreck OR SoG.

Based on you voting for

both

parties in the dana/CMAR spat, where both are likely town, and then NOT voting for

either

party in THIS debacle, where both are likely scum... it seems like you are trying to protect someone, but eventually have realized that you have to bus them in order to not look scummy. But it's not working. Your blatant misrepping of me (saying I was defending Wreck when that is the opposite of what I was doing) also makes you look like opportunistic scum in the midst of a situation where you don't know what to do when one of your scum partners is catching fire.

FoS: Slicey

[ReaperCharlie]

For everyone asking for SOG's death, please note (1) we have no claim from him (2) I feel like those pushing on having him killed first are scum trying to save their scum buddy or know something about SOG and WS as fact. It bothers me more and more.

Every time I see someone faux-defending either of these parties, it makes me believe THEY are scum.

It should be obvious why BOTH of these parties are very likely scum (apparently, most people agree with me on that), but I have already outlined why I want SoG to be killed first by Kast, so that we can have more discussion time on Wreck after SoG flips:

To put it simply, in my eyes it's better to kill off a VT and find a scum (score one for the good guys), then kill off a town PR and have inconclusive evidence about the other possible scum (score one for the bad guys).

Take it or leave it. That's just the way I see it. There are other possible interpretations, as have obviously been intimated previously.

I just think Wreck warrants more discussion as he has claimed a town PR. The only thing that'd change my mind would have been if Wreck had claimed VT and SoG was claiming town PR.

I still think SoG should be vigged first, giving us time to talk about Wreck and the possibilities of a redirected investigation result. And there is no way I'd stand by saying Wreck should be killed second, if we were scumchums. That should be blatantly obvious to anyone with half a brain. I'd be bussing the @#$& out of Wreck if he was a scumchum.

I just think it's suicide for us to kill off claimed PRs when there is a legitimate possibility of bv's result being wrong. Also, semioldguy's statement here in

his post 680

:

I didn't target TwoHeadedCtclops last night.

...

totally

rubbed me the wrong way.

Off-topic:

On a side note, I think it's interesting to note that out of all of the killings that have happened thus far or will happen later in this game...
...one thing is very important to note.

HAN SHOT FIRST.

[ReaperCharlie]

charlie: Why do we need more discussion on WS over SOG?

Because Wreck is a possible town PR if they are not lying.

SoG needs to talk more either way though, he is aggressively being argued as scum and has said little to nothing in his defense.

Good to see you back, Kast.

[ReaperCharlie]

Every time I see someone faux-defending either of these parties, it makes me believe THEY are scum.

You realize you are guilty of this as well.

Your blatant misrep of Slicey's misrep of me is noted. Read:

post 718

To put it simply, in my eyes it's better to kill off a VT and find a scum (score one for the good guys), then kill off a town PR and have inconclusive evidence about the other possible scum (score one for the bad guys).

Take it or leave it. That's just the way I see it. There are other possible interpretations, as have obviously been intimated previously.

What would be inconclusive about me if Wreck Star flipped town? I am claiming that her result that I targeted TwoHeadedCyclops is wrong

STOP with the misreps, and STOP avoiding

the

point

!

Let me break it down for you, or for anyone else who is looking for an easy summation:

-If Wreck flips town first, SoG is obviously scum.
-If Wreck flips scum tracker, Sog is obviously scum.
-If Wreck flips scum (other than tracker), SoG may be TOWN, but there is NO reason to believe he are NOT scum, so SoG will likely be lynched anyhow.
-If SoG flips town first, Wreck is scum.
-If SoG flips scum first, Wreck may be TOWN and bv310's results could have been redirected. Unlikely, but possible. Wreck would still probably be lynched.
Either way, by dayvigging/lynching Wreck, we could possibly be lynching a town PR.

Wreck claims to be a town PR and you haven't even claimed, even in the face of almost certain death. And the only reason you're not claiming is because you feel it would only hasten your demise, and might put Wreck Star in a better light, and you're determined to take Wreck down with you. Which is great if they are scum. I tip my hat to you. I really do.

Wreck Star is not a possible town power role unless they are a role that gets both false results and is investigated as guilty.

Another fallacy; this is assuming you are

innocent

, which you're not. This has been hashed and rehashed.

It is blindingly obvious that you are only trying to bring others down with you when you die.

Die, scum... Die.

[ReaperCharlie]

@ Wreck: Shut up, there's only like a 5% chance that you aren't scum, too. Stop acting so innocent.

@ everyone: Lame. Wanted to kill SoG first, but since we don't get two daykills today, lynching one makes just as much sense as lynching the other. Meh.

Curse you and your purposeful nebulosity Kast, I would have switched my vote back days ago. haha

Vote: Wreck

HoS: Semioldguy

HoS: Scott Brosius

[ReaperCharlie]

I don't feel that I've been in the face of almost certain death.

I think it's pretty obvious that a lot of people know you're scum, but since Kast doesn't have any more shots, we're just lynching Wreck first. You are obviously next on a lot of people's lists.

[ReaperCharlie]

Here's the deal guys:

I'm scum tracker. But I absolutely 100% did track SOG to THC last night. I implore you to lynch him. It will help both town-wincon and my own wincon.

You lying bastard. I take back everything that I said about you possibly being town.

For what it's worth, I kinda believed your claim somehow, I felt somehow like there was some truth hiding in it...
I guess the finger on SoG was the part that made me believe you, because I was already suspicious of SoG.


And thanks for showing up, AlmasterGM. Means a ton, really. Especially the much-needed hammer+1. *sarcasm*

[ReaperCharlie]

Well, looks like nothing more needs to be said, you guys have said most of it already. I will give more of a read over tomorrow, I've had a busy weekend and haven't really had time to check. Glad you guys finally came around though, lol.

And there may indeed be only one scumgroup... but if there is, then who is putting the bounties? Yes, the Empire certainly used bounty hunters in ESB, but I think the bounty that was the most focused-upon in the series was the Han Solo one, which was put out by Jabba.

Anyways,

Vote: SoG

[ReaperCharlie]

I have both semioldguy and Scott Brosius down as likely town in my analysis - what am I missing?

Couldn't let this go: I think you are missing a lot. But your defense of both of them is noted. I have had Scott nailed as scum since Day 1 but nobody listened to me.

[ReaperCharlie]

Regarding the Scum Group{s}, I find it interesting that both of the Scum that have thus far flipped are bounty hunters {although one is 3rd party and one is Scum}. I'm not willing to write off 2 Scum Groups, but I'm not down for more speculation. It only serves to distract the Town and we'll hopefully find out soon enough anyway.

1. Ok, please explain how are you gonna have a Star Wars (ep IV-VI) game and NOT have Vader and the Emperor be THE bad guys? lol

2. How do you explain the differing kill types (stabbed in the back, chopped in half, etc), esp when vibroblades are from tatooine as someone said. unless vader is an SK and the only scumgroup is bounty hunters (which I don't believe), then that doesn't make sense. Chopping people in half fits Vader, he chopped Obi-Wan in half in Episode IV. Wreck says he tracked SoG to THC, and THC was chopped in half. Therefore if Wreck was telling the truth at ALL, then SoG is likely Vader, and I don't see why you aren't voting for SoG.

FoS: d3x

It seems pretty obvious to me... and I think to a lot of other people too. You seem to be stalling (poorly), which is pretty suspicious especially at this point.

[ReaperCharlie]

The main reasons I think there are two scum groups are as follows:

1. After Wreck Star/Greedo was lynched, there was yet another vibroblade killing. This does

not

mesh correctly flavor-wise with the Empire. See link for vibroblades below. This would indicate another member of Wreck Star's scum group making the killing, which

would

make sense flavor-wise.

2. bv310 identified Wreck Star/Greedo as 'evil'. Nothing about being a tracker is in and of itself 'evil' so I would say either Greedo was able to NK as well, or had a wincon that was somehow evil. This would not make sense with his after-death post of 'this helps both town wincon and my own wincon', so the only explanation that I see is that he was on an opposite scum team, and that killing SoG (who he thinks/thought is scum) would help both his (faction's) wincon and the town's wincon, because SoG was in the other scumgroup. Take this for what you will. Thus is my train of thought.

Those are my reasons. But then... I keep going back to thinking of that Obi Wan line in A New Hope where he is talking about Mos Eisley:

"you will never find a more wretched hive of

scum

and villainy"

, and that makes me wonder whether flavorwise/setupwise it makes sense that Greedo was alone, and was able to kill by himself. That would definitely explain the 'scum' part of his flip, but due to the second vibro-blade killing, I think any speculation evaporates because there are apparently still Tatooine killers out there. This would make total sense if there was a Jabba faction, and the bounties would make sense too.

Reference:

http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Vibroblade

I think anyone who throws out the possibility of two scum groups is either dumb, blind, or scum.


@ d3x: refusing to admit that setup speculation is useful is scummy. Scum

know

way more about the setup than town, therefore they are likely to try to dissuade people from setup speculation. This is the reason my FoS is on you.

@ SoG's claim: If we believe Wreck Star (and we have no reason not to, he was apparently being honest after he was lynched), and we believe that he tracked you to THC, you would have died in place of TwoHeadedCyclops, according to your Bodyguard ability claim. That is,

if

you targeted THC, which you said you didn't. In that post where you said 'I did not target THC'. Therefore we are forced to conclude that either:

a) you're lying (you have every incentive to), and that is a bogus claim;
b) Wreck's lying (he had NO incentive to, he was already dead); or
c) you're both telling the truth, but Wreck's result on you was redirected.

And with my two-scumgroup theory, perhaps the Empire (non-vibroblade/chopped in half flavor) tried to kill whoever was protected last night. You said you targeted bv310 last night, which would make a likely scum target last night, as would CMAR, unfortunately. But again, this would have KILLED you. Who is lying here? I am still inclined to think it's you.

[ReaperCharlie]

I think anyone who throws out the possibility of two scum groups is either dumb, blind, or scum.

I'm confused. Are you saying there IS a two scum group? When you say anyone who "throws out the possibility" do you mean

any who dismisses the possibility

or

anyone who suggests it

.

Sorry about the confusion. I guess I tend to write things in a poorly articulated way sometimes (maybe even often). Kast's 814 only confirms that things I write are often nonsensical to others. Sorry, at least it makes sense in MY brain! Feel free to request clarification on anything I post; often I post in a hurry because I am in multiple games at once, and I have to juggle work, play, and self-employment. Oh, and a family as well.

Posting at work as we speak =P

[ReaperCharlie]

Sorry, I forgot to mention: LMP: I answered your question by bolding the correct interpretation of what I wrote and striking out the incorrect one.

[ReaperCharlie]

http://mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopic.ph ... 3#p2389673

[ReaperCharlie]

Check the scummies thread!

[ReaperCharlie]

No, we are not giving it out. I already said don't ask again.

[ReaperCharlie]

RC I was right about you. <3

Yeah, you were! lol

But you lost in a 7v1 to LynchMePls... so... you FAIL!!!!!

[ReaperCharlie]

I think we could have won this game is Blaze or Vezo weren't complete idiot's.

I think you could have too. LOL

And if I'd have bussed Reck and counter-claimed Chewbacca, instead of pushing for the SoG lynch, I bet I would have coasted through until the endgame on bv310's 'good' result on me.

Operative word: if

Great game, y'all. I am happy knowing I took down Darth Vader and Yoda before going out myself

[ReaperCharlie]

Yeah I must say I was kind of disappointed with how little effect my ability actually had, especially compared to the Emperor's ability. I would have much rather had something like that.

[ReaperCharlie]

Bounty's probably better than Vote too

I disagree. Bounty probably would have been cooler if it didn't immediately incite WIFOM about 'yep, that's probably a scum ability'... which made it basically useless except to town planners trying to get the item to a towny townie.