Star Wars Mafia (Game Over)

[LimMePls]

First I'd like to say that I wrote this entire post after a full thread re-read during
Night 2. All of these observations are before mod reveals N2's results. I feel that
these notes, while possibly out of date, can still be useful to the town, so I'm
posting it as is. I'll "advise and extend my remarks" if necessary once
I read up on the nights events .
I'll almost exclusively focus on D2 however, since not much needs to be said about day 1

That being said: Nerd Observation - Am I the only one that thinks its awesome that Han took a shot at Boba Fett.
Geek out much? Only thing better would have been Greedo. LOLZ

Now on to D2 analysis:

Post 432: bv310 posts very soon after day begins and says he doesn't like WS's iso, and to
"trust him on this"

Post 490: Scott Brosius comes to wreck star's defense, then rolefishes.

Post 505: danakillsu defends the role fishing. People start dropping
Scott in favor of dana.

Post 525: Slicey focuses on CMAR's investigation. More focus
is taken off Scott. CMAR bw leads to eventual CMAR role claim
(premature much?).

Post 573: There's the yoda role claim, with posts later to breadcrumbs. To note is
CMAR's "I officially dislike Scott, dana (I've always disliked you), Toon, and SoG."
Pretty much my thoughts.

Post 574+: Dana starts getting (imo well deserved) suspicion. However, Scott gets lost
in the shuffle.

Post 588: sog and farside start getting into it. sog looks a little scummy to me
at the end of their exchange, in part because of CMAR's
roleclaim and it's apparent clearing of farside.

Post 610: FCG claims dana-Scott connection due to Scott defense of dana.

Post 627: Scott seems nervous about being setup for the next days lynch by ReaperCharlie

Post 633: bv claims investigation as reason for "trust me" in 432. That was my read
before I even got here. Wasn't going to say anything in this summary
for fear of outing power role. Can we please stop roleclaiming,
you already made your point without outing yourself.

Post 653: And then he full name claims Luke. WAS THIS NECESSARY? Good lord.

Post 674: WS claims Chewbacca using terrible fluff explanation. Possible
safe claim provided by mod? No one CC'd the Chewie or Lando, correct?
Would a Neutral get a mod provided safe claim? (New to forum mafia)
I think we can assume scum have mod provided safe claims but not
full role claims, as there have been two terrible fake claims.

Post 688: WS claims to have tracked SOG and saw him visit THC. They say all good
lies have a kernel of truth to them. This might be it?

Post 755: Really unfortunate it was 1 shot vig. Vig on SOG would have straightened
everything out. Fortunately Kast sees the WS scum and gets the final ball
rolling on WS.

Post 760: The bolding here is EXACTLY what I would have done.

Post 771:WS flips scum tracker. Major flag in SOG's direction.

Wrap up: After all of this my major opinions are

Town - CMAR, farside, wolf, bv, kast
Likely town - Reaper Charlie
Possible scum - dana
Likely scum - Scott Brosius, SOG

Vote: Scott Brosius

HOS: semioldguy

Hope I'm of much more help than the previous player in my slot. That's it for now.
Thanks for the game invite kdub. Glad to be in the game!

**PREVIEW EDIT** Night's results match what I've said perfectly. CMAR is confirmed. This confirms farside. I stand by what I've posted. Sorry if the format of this message is bad, I cut and pasted from my text editor.

[LimMePls]

Reaper_Charlie is determined to be good. I was more suspicious of him than SOG after a reread.

You thought RC was scummy? Care to share why? I had the opposite read.

Vote: Scott Brosius

Next most suspicious to me.

Agreed, although sog is close up there.

[LimMePls]

You thought RC was scummy? Care to share why? I had the opposite read.

Can I ask why it matters? Do you disbelieve the Cop Claim?

No, bv is all but confirmed cop. I just had a completely different read, so I was wondering. I'm learning forum mafia, this is my first MS.net game.

[LimMePls]

Checking in for the day.

Regarding the Scum Group{s}, I find it interesting that both of the Scum that have thus far flipped are bounty hunters {although one is 3rd party and one is Scum}. I'm not willing to write off 2 Scum Groups, but I'm not down for more speculation. It only serves to distract the Town and we'll hopefully find out soon enough anyway.

1. Ok, please explain how are you gonna have a Star Wars (ep IV-VI) game and NOT have Vader and the Emperor be THE bad guys? lol

2. How do you explain the differing kill types (stabbed in the back, chopped in half, etc), esp when vibroblades are from tatooine as someone said. unless vader is an SK and the only scumgroup is bounty hunters (which I don't believe), then that doesn't make sense. Chopping people in half fits Vader, he chopped Obi-Wan in half in Episode IV. Wreck says he tracked SoG to THC, and THC was chopped in half. Therefore if Wreck was telling the truth at ALL, then SoG is likely Vader, and I don't see why you aren't voting for SoG.

FoS: d3x

It seems pretty obvious to me... and I think to a lot of other people too. You seem to be stalling (poorly), which is pretty suspicious especially at this point.

Look up a few posts and you'll note that d3x thinks we shouldn't quick lynch. If he feels that way then not putting his vote on SOG makes perfect sense. If he claimed he didn't want a quick lynch but then put his vote on SOG anyways THAT would seem scummy to me.

We have plenty of time, is there any reason we would want to speed things up?

[LimMePls]

The main reasons I think there are two scum groups are as follows:

**SNIP**

I think anyone who throws out the possibility of two scum groups is either dumb, blind, or scum.

I'm confused. Are you saying there IS a two scum group? When you say anyone who "throws out the possibility" do you mean any who dismisses the possibility or anyone who suggests it.

@SOG claim: Isn't doc claim like scum 101? I don't want to vote him yet since he is at L-2, but seems suspicious. Would like to hear from wolf/farside/bv on the roleclaim.

[LimMePls]

I still think Scott is scum, but I'm willing to help work out the bv hammer if necessary. For now my vote stays on Scott, I think he is the next best vote.

[LimMePls]

Wow, Scott B is innocent AND RC is(err was) scum? That is really surprising. Guess I'm gonna need to do some iso, my reads from day 2 were completely wrong. I thought RC was good and I thought Scott B was scum. I guess Scott B could still be scum if both teams have a GF.

[LimMePls]

So I'm doing some reading in iso, but first the following observation:

Yesterday according to the final vote count: danakillsu FCG kthxbye, ooba and SOG were all no-voters.

SOG's no vote is pretty obvious, and I'm pretty sure ooba had unvoted to try and help set up the bv hammer. So I decided to iso dana, FCG and kthxbye.

danakillsu: actually, after a re-read with current information, I'm moving dana off my probable scum list. May 3rd last post, and I don't see a V/LA. We did have a really quick day 3 though, which would explain the no vote or post on day 3. You still with us dana?

FCG: "V/LA until 7/5". This would explain the no post/vote. It's now May 14, would love to hear from FCG once you've caught up. Can we get a "hey gang, I'm here" post at the least?

Kthxbye: Replaces DoS, who lurked through 2 game days of play. Kthxbye then posts one post saying something to the effect of "thought I'd have time for this, but real life says otherwise. Will post soon". Nothing since. Impossible to get a read on a lurker who replaced a lurker. I've been in the game since Day 3 and I have more posts than these two combined. This slot makes me sad face.

I thought bv would turn up scum on SB, so I'm a bit at a loss on where to go from here. Until we get some more posting in here, that's about all I got.

[LimMePls]

Reading RC in iso I now see why bv suspected him. He drips of scum. I guess I just thought he was town because he suspected the same players I did.

[LimMePls]

In the interest of spurring debate, and hoping to prod some responses from the lurkier players:

Vote: Toon Fighter

FOS: Kthxbye

Toon, I'd like a better explanation for your Slicey vote. You also lurk way to much. You and Kthxbye need to participate please.

[LimMePls]

Wow, I wasn't actually expecting my vote on a lurker to actually cause an un-lurk.

I know I had no votes by the previous deadlines, but that wasn't beacuse of a lack of suspects. I suspected the lynch victims in days 1 and two, but wasn't online in time to vote.

I'm not sure I buy this. I find it much more believable that you didn't vote the lynch victims day 1 and 2 because you're a lurker who isn't contributing.

[LimMePls]

Well, I was attacked, can't I defend myself? I will scumhunt in the future.

I'll believe it when I see it. You've shown no desire to do so yet.

[LimMePls]

@dana what do you think of the ToonFighter bw? what do you think about kthxbye's post and vote?

I think Kthxbye makes some very good points although I still like my vote at the moment.

[LimMePls]

What is the best play if you think someone is VI? The game continues if they get lynched, right? If we lynched a VI and then the remaining scum, does that count as a victory for us, or just not a loss?

[LimMePls]

Yes VI = village idiot. dana suggests that ToonFighter is a village idiot. I'm wondering what the best play is when you have a VI in the game. Do you just lynch them anyways and get on with the game?

My mafia experience all comes from real life games, and we never had a village idiot, so I'm just not sure what the town should do about village idiots.

[LimMePls]

I understand SB's atitude against me, but there was something off in him. It seems he was pressuring and trying to quicklynch me.

Could you please point out where he is "pressuring and trying to quicklynch" you? I know I was pressuring you, although I certainly wasn't trying to quick lynch. It appears to be the only way to get you to participate.

Toon, when you are in a game, and a player lurks to the point of near null participation, do you think the town is justified in voting for that person in an attempt to stimulate participation? Do you think lurkers are more or less likely to be scum? If a lurker isn't scum, are they helping the town win with their lurking?

[LimMePls]

I'd really like to hear from d3x, but he hasn't been on since last Monday.

Mod, can we get a prod on d3x?

He has been prodded.

[LimMePls]

On a reread I didn't think dana was as scummy as I originally thought, and downgraded my suspicion of him. I agree with you however that the "I find that very townie people are joining the d3x wagon" line is really glaring, so I'm starting to lean back that way again.

@Kast What do you think about the ToonFighter bw?

I like my vote where it is for now.

[LimMePls]

Now he is claiming Grand Moff Tarkin, another very specific character, with a specific ability which is NOT what Tarkin was known for (Vader is probably best known for torture, interrogation droids probably next best, and after that it's pretty much a free for all with torture widely used by lots of imperials). I'm strongly suspecting that Dana and RC probably pre-game talked about Vader being in the game or someone on Jabba's team may have had some setup info about Vader/the Empire.

You know, I kind of thought the idea of Tarkin as torturer made sense, but because Kast just suggested his flavor doesn't fit, I went and found an online copy of the script. Tarkin is never directly involved in anyones torture, although Vader does come and report to Tarkin about Leia's "resistance to the mind probe". Tarkin also does sort of psychologically torture Leia with the whole "tell us or we'll blow up your planet" moment. Vader is in the scene of Leia's torture in Ep 4 (along with the "mind probe" droid thing) and has Han tortured in Ep 5. That being said, we know Vader is dead, so the torturing has to be someone else. It's interesting that dana made the leap to Tarkin, but I'm not sure that is damning. I was sort of thinking the same thing.

Is 6 mafia about right for this size game? If so, assuming an even 3/3 split, then Jabba's team only has 1 player left, and they clearly have the vibroblade killing. Vader is dead, so assuming the emperor is in the game, that leaves one other role which has a "tortured" kill flavor. Tarkin may not be a perfect fit, but lets look at this hypothetical setup from the mod's point of view. You've made a 3 person empire team with Emperor, Vader, and Tarkin. Emperor's kill flavor would likely be lightning, Vader's is the cut in half we saw earlier, and you need a flavor for Tarkin. Torture is probably about as good as any other flavor you could come up with.

@Kast Your post 849 says

I'm assuming Jabba's team killed FS and the Empire killed RC.

RC was tortured to death. You suspect the empire did the RC kill. Vader is dead. Who is the next most likely character to appear on the Empire team and use torture as a kill flavor? It's gotta be Tarkin, right? Unless it's the torture droid, I can't really think of a better fit.

Now that I've written this whole message, I'm not even sure if all this setup speculation is doing us much good, but I'm posting this anyways because I've gone through the trouble of writing it up.

[LimMePls]

after a re-read with current information, I'm moving dana off my probable scum list.

Why? What changed your mind about him?

I'll iso him and put up some of the quotes that struck me as more town on the second re-read. However, since my post saying I was moving him off my probable scum list he has said some scummy things, so he is now back on there.

{Lynch805 actually agreed that we should take our time with yesterday}

I still think D3 went way to fast. I'd have liked a lot more discussion, and some prods on people who are now getting prods. I also wasn't comfortable with how the bounty was steering our play. The only bad thing that could have come from taking our time is we maybe could have been convinced to not lynch him, but that seems HIGHLY unlikely. SOG was doomed when WS tracked him and then outted him before his lynch. Why did we need to rush it?

[LimMePls]

No, I'm making a general statement to the group. That was a rhetorical question. Sorry.

[LimMePls]

You know, I just did a dana iso to find posts that were why I said I was moving him off my scum list, and I honestly can't say why I thought that. I said it on Friday, and I know I did a bunch of iso reads that day, but I seriously can't find a single post that reminds me why I said that.

[LimMePls]

Lol at Lynch for his:
"Dana is leaning town"
"Oh, wait, I don't know why I said that"

danakillsu: actually, after a re-read with current information, I'm moving dana off my probable scum list. May 3rd last post, and I don't see a V/LA. We did have a really quick day 3 though, which would explain the no vote or post on day 3. You still with us dana?

On a reread I didn't think dana was as scummy as I originally thought, and downgraded my suspicion of him.

Don't misrep me please. I said I was moving you off my probable scum list, I never said you were leaning town. You were more of a neutral. I started thinking that your posts looked more like an aggresive town player who was skeptical of peoples claims. I also re-evaluated my opinion about your "fishing". It looked less like fishing and more like trying to catch someone in a lie. I tried to go back last night and see what quotes specifically made me feel that way, but my re-read of you last night didn't look very good.

Whatever it was I saw though, I did think you were less scummy than I originally thought, and I stand by that. I don't like your recent posts very much though. Pretty much everything you've said since I made that observation has been scummy.

Those who have some experience with dana, does he always come off this scummy? I'm getting a vibe like he is trying to help, but that some of what he says just seems scummy.

I still think Toon Fighter is the best lynch. He had two game days of no votes and then a strange Slicey vote that didn't make much since. He unlurked long enough to defend himself and vote on the easy d3x wagon and has now re-lurked. Whether he is scum lurking or just lurking, he is definitely not helping town. danakillsu is at least participating enough that we can try and get a read on him. And speaking of Slicey, is he still V/LA?

[LimMePls]

Lurkers are just as likely as participating players to be scum.

@Experienced Forum Players: Is this true? I would think that lurkers are more likely to be scum, since scum have an extra incentive to lurk. If they lurk they are less likely to make a slip and get caught by the town.

I ask the experienced players because I'm new to forum mafia. I have lots of experience in real life games, but lurkers aren't really a problem there. If Steve keeps going to the bathroom whenever its day time, we're gonna lynch him pretty quick.

[LimMePls]

I think the participation level in this game is a bit low. That's why I've been trying to push at the lurkers.

Wouldn't be surprised if Almaster is scum too, just pops in with a vote on the biggest bandwagon with no reasoning and then disappears.

I decided to iso AlmasterGM after this statement.

@AlmasterGM You have 17 posts in a month+ long game and almost half of them are one liners.

Would you like some moar?

If it's clearly an RVS wagon, then isn't the explanation that it was random?

Wow, this game really took off in the past couple of days. My bad for not posting. I'll get something up by tomorrow.

To be fair, he ALWAYS does this. As both scum and town.

+1.

+1.

And my person favorite:

LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL.

LOL.

I guess that's not really a one liner. I find this post interesting:

I don't see the benefits of refusing to speculate. The game is read entirely different if there are multiple scum groups. Doesn't ignoring that possibility and calling it a distraction make it more difficult to analyze interactions?

So you don't see the benefits of refusing to speculate, but then you never actually speculate, thus essentially refusing to speculate. I think it is helpful, which is why I discussed the whole Grand Moff Tarkin/torture thing with Kast. If you think speculation is helpful, would you care to share some thoughts?

And then there is your most recent post:

VI isn't usually an actual role. It just refers to someone who plays really poorly.

Kthxbye has a good case.

Vote: d3x

Do you have anything to add with your d3x vote, or just that Kthxbye made a good case, and its an easy bandwagon to get on?

Unvote: Toon Fighter
Vote: AlmasterGM
FOS: Toon Fighter

I think this is better.

[LimMePls]

@LMP-
-MafiaScum games tend to be much slower than RL mafia games. Large games tend to be even slower than Mini games. I'm all in favor of faster moving games, but you should realize that a majority of people on this site don't expect to need to post that quickly or frequently, particularly for Large Theme games.

Fair enough. I don't have a problem with people who make 1 contributive post every few days. I do want some substance from the posts they do make though. TF, until recently, had almost 0 substance in his posts. I do think he is getting better though, although that is likely due to the pressure.

The proportion of lurking scum to lurking town tends to be roughly the same as the proportion of scum to town. In the event of a mislynch, lynching from the lurker population can have the comparative benefit of not removing an actively contributing player. This benefit rarely outweighs the much higher chance of hitting scum by lynching suspicious players.

I agree 100%. That said I think TF and AGM are both lurky AND scummy.

@Slicey-
-Post 909 prompted a re-read of TF and I think the points are a pretty fair assessment of TF. It's definitely plausible, and I would look to TF as strongest lead on Imperial Mafia.

Given this, wouldn't TF actually be a better lynch than dana? You say yourself that TF is strongest lead on Imperial Mafia. Add the benefit of removing a lurker if it is a mislynch and it seems like a pretty solid lynch to me. Is it because you think dana is last Jabba scum and his lynch will prevent 1 NK a night?

[LimMePls]

There is also the factor the Scum GF (Jabba) has already been investigated and killed, so they no longer have a reason to let our cop investigate anyone else (ie. prior to RC's death, Scum benefit from BV investigating RC and "confirming" him). Imperial mafia may still have a GF which provides incentive to let BV keep investigating people.

I understand what you're saying, but I have to disagree a bit. If Imperials still have a GF, then isn't lynching someone who we strongly suspect of being an imperial scum really good? Eliminating the imperial GF before he gets investigated should be really important. The sooner we can 100% trust bv's investigate results the better. Also, someone who has been so scummy that you would say he is our best imperial scum read may be acting that way because they are relying on their GF power to save them.

That said, I agree 100% that eliminating a NK is a really good idea. With only 1 NK a night, I really like our chances.

[LimMePls]

Interesting team-up you have there. Is it just because they're your two top suspects, or is there an actual link? I think a gaping, but not likely possibility is bv310 and Scott. Think about it. Once again, I'm not trying to say this is the case, but if bv310 was GMT, he would have some sort of investigative role (which ties in with the "tortured to death" thing). He could have investigated farside the first night, found her to be innocent, and decided to reveal that information immediately. Why? Because when she died, he could immediately reveal another "result" that would be accepted by all. Namely, that Scott Brosius was innocent. But that's just me doing another wild speculation. Please do explain why you see this connection, though.

First off, CMAR (Yoda) is the one that investigated farside. And I seem to recall a lot of people jumping down CMAR's throat for investigating someone he said seemed town. You were heavily involved in the CMAR buisness, yet you don't remember that he is the one that investigated farside?

While digging through old posts to confirm that CMAR was the farside investigator, I found this gem of a post:

This is absolutely ridiculous. I am Yoda (Alliance Jack-of-All-Trades). I officially dislike Scott, dana (I've always disliked you), Toon, and SoG.

I highlighted this in my first post of the game, although I was more focused on Scott being on the list. However, I find it very relevant that dana is on this list. Two of our top suspects now are on that list, and one on that list is confirmed scum. Furthermore, the lynched scum on the list didn't kill CMAR because the kill flavor doesn't match.

CryMeARiver was Yoda (Alliance Jack-of-All-Trades),

stabbed in the back

Night 2.

@dana: Why would GMT have to have an investigate power? Once again you offer very detailed ideas about the setup. And why the accusation at bv? You seem to want to make the accusation, but then soften it with things like "Once again, I'm not trying to say this is the case" and "But that's just me doing another wild speculation". If it was just wild speculation, why bring it up? Are you trying to distract us from something?

Unvote: AlmasterGM
Vote: danakillsu

I'm on board now. I think this is absolutely the right vote and that you are the last Jabba scum. I still think one of TF or AGM are scum, but this wagon is now the superior wagon.

[LimMePls]

Looks like everyone else got there too. That post was just way to scummy. Looks like my vote is L-3 everyone.

[LimMePls]

Welcome BlazezRb. I hope that vote is going to come with some reasoning once you've had time to catch up with the game. Glad to have you.

sorry all, crazy busy schedule at work lately. Just sold an extra car I had too. Anyway, I'll try and post here sooner than later. I'm leaving my vote on d3x very much on purpose and I'll tell you why next post. Suffice it to say that it's basically due to me knowing him in real life (which he mentioned) and due to that connection seeing things you all dismiss as reasons to believe he's scum.

This should be good if your evidence is really enough to overcome the mountain of a case against dana?

[LimMePls]

I'd really like ooba and DP to get off the fence. Even if they both chose the same person, it wouldn't be a hammer, and I think they've both been "Not Voting" this whole day. At least a post saying "Waiting for Kthx's explanation" would satisfy me.

[LimMePls]

Wow, I'm anxious to see the rest of this analysis ooba.

Still waiting on Kthxbye's awesome case against d3x...

[LimMePls]

Orly? Care to explain? I think it matters. Even if they are both scum, getting the last Jabba scum is better.

[LimMePls]

I don't know where you got the idea that I was going to come up with some 'awesome' post, but I'd like to know where you got that idea from.

Are you kidding me?

I'm leaving my vote on d3x very much on purpose and I'll tell you why next post. Suffice it to say that it's basically due to me knowing him in real life (which he mentioned) and due to that connection seeing things you all dismiss as reasons to believe he's scum.

That was Thursday. Nothing contributive from you until this sudden dana vote.

Unvote

I don't want a quick hammer here yet, Kthx's post seems really scummy to me.

[LimMePls]

@Kthxbye I want to know what you're RL knowledge of him made you think he was scum. I want to know what "connection seeing things you all dismiss" you were referring to. I want to know why you made that statement and then suddenly switched without ever providing the post you said you would.

@dana I unvoted to keep you from being quick lynched. I'd still consider yourself L-1.

[LimMePls]

Sorry for triple post, but I'd also really like to give ooba time to finish his analysis, I think there is some really great stuff in it. No harm in waiting for that to finish before we settle on a lynch.

[LimMePls]

I'm not "freaking out", I'm frustrated by your sudden switch without the evidence you claimed you were going to provide. Did you not see me quote your statement? You said you wanted your vote to stay on d3x and you would explain why later. I assumed that this explanation would have to be pretty stellar since there is a monster of a case on dana.

It's not scum quick hammer I'm afraid of, its people (lurkers like TF in particular) voting between the vote counts and not realizing it's a hammer I'm afraid of.

I still feel gypped Kthx, but seeing as how I didn't want to lynch d3x anyways, I guess it's not a total loss. dana has until ooba's last analysis post to convince me, otherwise I'm back on the wagon.

[LimMePls]

Mod: I will be V/LA Wednesday 26th thru Tuesday 1st for Memorial Day weekend. I will check in as often as I can.

Noted

[LimMePls]

@TF: You'll forgive me if I assume otherwise. You may be following along perfectly well, but I'm not going to assume that from someone who posts so infrequently. While I have little experience with forum mafia, I find it highly likely that people who need multiple prods in a game may get lazy and just jump on a convenient wagon, especially if they are scum, which I still think you are.

His character is oddly minor, so it may be a fakeclaim, but, as mine is also very minor, I can believe it.

And while I have your attention, what the hell is with this soft claim?

I don't know where my FOS is right now, but I'm moving it.

UnFOS
FOS: Toon Fighter

[LimMePls]

Post 776: @LMP – Cannot determine from his post why he feels both Scott and dana are scum.
Post 778: @LMP - “You thought RC was scummy? Care to share why? I had the opposite read.”. Could be scum partner gloating about RC getting investigated

I don't think these are questions, but I guess I'll explain anyways. My 776 was after my very first read of the thread when I was replacing in. I remember getting pretty big scum vibes off Scott, and a few small ones from dana. I don't remember what specifically they were, and I thought my post (which was a wall of text) explained them. I'll let 776 speak for itself, unless you have any specific questions.

As for the "gloating", I was just surprised, I thought Scott was a better pick. Apparently bv thought Scott was a decent choice, since he chose Scott the next night, and defended me by saying it was a fair question to ask. I agreed with RC's voting and FOSing on D2, that's why I thought he was town. Now that I'm learning the ropes a bit, I see this is a bad reason to suspect someone is/isn't scum.

@ooba: The reason you vote AGM over dana is farside's opinion? If so, then why doesn't Toon Fighter make a much better lynch? Toon Fighter has been on pretty much EVERYONE's scum list, including CMAR and farside (in fact, farside's scum, not just leaning scum), but he doesn't appear to even make your list. Why do you think TF isn't scum?

I really like that farside post. Interesting that farside thought dana was not a scum buddy of WS.

[LimMePls]

This is likely my last post before V/LA. I'm buying the dana claim. Makes since both flavor wise and with the events of the game. I also think we have better targets, given recent analysis and events.

UnFOS: Toon Fighter
Vote: Toon Fighter
FOS: AGM

It looks like AGM will be replaced, so I'd prefer not to lynch without hearing something from him, particularly since I see TF as much scummier.

[LimMePls]

This will be one of my rare V/LA posts. vezo's 1035 seems scummy. What is up with reading 36 pages and then stopping? Wouldn't it be better to skip the first day and catch up than to skip the most recent events? And if he didn't read the recent stuff, why is his scum list pretty much everyone we currently suspect?

1042 seems VI or scum. We want fewer night kills. The fewer night kills there are the more lynches we get. We prefer lynches to night kills, since NKs by nature aren't good for the town. Yes we could get lucky and they could kill each other, but wouldn't we much rather lynch them ourselves?

Why are you voting me if I did a bad thing?

What? Why wouldn't we vote you if you did a bad thing? That's the whole point of the game, to vote people you suspect of being scum. One reason we suspect they are scum is they do/say bad things.

Unvote: Toon Fighter
Vote: Vezopiraka
UnFOS
FOS: Toon Fighter

Back to my V/LA.

[LimMePls]

Not necessarily. He had plenty of time, there was no reason to post 1061, so he could simply check. If anything, I would expect scum to be more careful.

If this is not a mod error (I once misspelled the name of a role in one of my games, although it was a small error - it got the recipient lynched) it IS extremely sloppy play one way or the other.

This is a pretty good point. We know the scum got fake claims, so either way he just had to check his PM. I would think scum would be really careful when using their fake claim.

Unvote: vezopiraka

This actually makes me think he is more newbie town than scum.

Vote: Toon Fighter

This is my next highest scum read. See earlier posts/ISO for my reasons.

[LimMePls]

Unvote

^due to d3x, TF, and dana all being on the wagon.

I'm going to go ahead and follow my gut on this and go back to

Vote: d3x

I still think my original thoughts and vote on him stand despite his reply to the case. I finally figured out why his reply was off-putting to me as well and is a large part of the reason I'm re-voting him. It is uncommon for him to mention that we have a history both on and off site. I believed he mentioned this in order to add the other point that I usually go after him at least once in most every game. I believe this is a tactic to throw dis-credit onto the reasons I voted him the first place. Sorta like "eh, it's just kthx going after me again guys...don't worry about it."

I now also don't like how on the 27th TF should be our lynch for the day, yet on the 31st, when it looks like vezo's going to be the bandwagon, he joins it. This is very unlike the d3x I know. I'd also like to point to the fact that even though 5 days ago d3x said TF should be the lynch today, he jumps on and puts vezo at L-1 even though TF is on that wagon as well...

Again, I may be off here, but I'm going to trust that I know d3x well and trust that my gut is right on this one.

Sorry guys, you're gonna have to find 2 others to lynch vezo today.

I get your unvote, but I don't get your vote. With less than 3 days left to the deadline you want to vote d3x. You say that you are troubled by dana, TF and d3x being on the same wagon, which implies you find them scummy, but you manage to vote the only one that has no wagon at all?

Your vote really troubles me.

FOS: Kthxbye

Why do you think starting a completely new wagon with less than 3 days left is better than joining a wagon against other players you find scummy? If you don't find dana or TF scummy, then why say that you unvoted due to them being on the wagon?

[LimMePls]

So, I attempted to investigate d3x last night, and got a result of "you are unable to determine his alignment". I gather from this that he is the Emperor, and as such needs to be lynched. I'll elaborate later, when I'm not on an iPod.

vote: d3x

Why do you assume d3x is a GF when you got a false positive on the last GF?

Reaper_Charlie is determined to be good.

This is a fascinating question.

[LimMePls]

I don't know what to make of the no result on d3x. Is it possible he could be immune to force investigation because he is a droid? What droids would be in EP4-6 beside R2D2 and C3PO? I know there is a bounty hunter droid? Could there be a group of bounty hunters in the game? We know that Boba Fett was a neutral aligned.

@wolf Does your pm suggest you may be immune to force investigation or something?

Either d3x is lying about his role (since there is no reason an ewok would be investigate immune) or bv got roleblocked. We know the empire lost a role blocker, so it would have to be Jabba team that roleblocked him. The empire scum team wouldn't have two roleblockers, would they? The only question is why bv hasn't been roleblocked before if the Jabba team were able to role block him. For now, absent any other evidence, Occam's razor makes me want to

Vote: d3x

I also am really frustrated by vezopiraka's play. I was convinced yesterday that he was just VI town, but here he goes again today saying strange/scummy things.

[LimMePls]

Unvote

I'd rather get d3x's opinion before anyone throws down a hammer.

Agreed. I was about to do this. I see no reason to rush this day. Since you unvoted, I'll stay where I'm at.

[LimMePls]

Might as well throw down the hammah

This statement troubles me.

[LimMePls]

You know what, on second thought, I'm not at all happy with this wagon. There are too many questions around the investigation.

Unvote

[LimMePls]

We have not had enough discussion. I'd like to hear from d3x, and I'd like to hear from Kast, and I'd like an answer to my question to wolfram. This is moving way to quick. There are clearly opportunistic scum on this wagon. From the very first day I replaced in I've been advocating taking our time, and this day is no different.

I'm happy to revote if I need to, but I do not like the way this is going. The posts/votes in particular that bother me: 1156, 1157, 1162. You also seem way to eager to make d3x the lynch. 1173 reeks of desperation to me. Are you afraid the conversation might turn to someone else?

bv310 getting a null result on his investigation does not mean we should quick lynch d3x. Two days into our three week game day is WAY to quick.

[LimMePls]

Unvote, Vote: BV310

Are you insane? You do realize he is our cop right?

[LimMePls]

Sigh, more softclaims. You may as well claim now.

Couldn't agree more.

[LimMePls]

and tell you guys the truth about last night

No special Powers though.

How does this in any way explain last night!?!?

Unvote (if I was voting)
Vote: BlazeRB

[LimMePls]

Blaze, you lied. Most people follow a policy of lynching all liars. They do that because lying is very anti-town. Now we don't know if we can trust anything you say. It would have been much better to make your claim and not do that stupid "I'll explain last night" shit.

We can't trust anything you say. You lied about explaining last night, you could just as easily be lying about your role. And you can't hide behind the bread crumbs you dropped because you could have just been bread crumbing your safe claim.

[LimMePls]

So you didn't just lie, you lied about lying... or something?

Sigh... this just seems so VI its insane. I really honestly don't know what to make of this. Can vezo and BlazeRB both be such huge newb-townies?

[LimMePls]

Just because I'm saying you're scummy for leaving the d3x wagon after someone else already did doesn't mean I want d3x quicklynched, and in fact I have said the obvious.

So you don't want a quick lynch, but you object to me leaving the wagon since bv had already unvoted? How is that not a contradiction? I can always put my vote back if I want, but that wagon is about as scummy as it gets right now. And with your talk today you are the scummiest member on it. Not a single person on it is a strong town read for me. Add to that all the talk of dropping the hammer, and I am uncomfortable on that wagon.

When I voted d3x early in the day, I felt good about that vote. The activity between that and my unvote is what caused me to unvote. And I feel really freaking good about that unvote right now. At the moment the d3x wagon is VI's and scummyness. Until I hear from d3x, and Kast, I'm not going anywhere near it.

FOS: danakillsu

You are are so desperate for a lynch right now it's scary.

@wolf I see you are back in the thread, but you never answered my question. Is that a "no comment", or did you just miss the question? If you missed it, the question is: Does your role say anything about being force investigate immune since you are a droid?

[LimMePls]

I agree completely with 1215. If dana is scum, I think he is Jabba scum, and I don't like 1213 much. I will say however, that dana has moved back up my scum list again. I was buying the claim, but his play today has seemed really desperate to me.

[LimMePls]

I've said before that I'm pretty sure they just have safe name claims. I'm pretty sure it's in my iso somewhere. Both HP and WS made awful claims, there is no way they had full fake roles.

[LimMePls]

Wow, fascinating developments last night. I've got some questions/observations.

Do not make the mistake of getting 3 VT Killed in one rotation, like me yesterday with TF, just don't do it.

3 VT in one rotation? I know TF was VT, but no one died last night. What does "one rotation" mean, like 1 night/day phase? No one died last night, how could it be 3? This could be a scum slip if Blaze's scum team targeted a VT last night.

Leah claim post here

The claim explains last night well, ESPECIALLY if anyone else out there was roleblocked beside bv. However, if you were roleblocked last night, I think you should only claim it if it was a 1-shot and it was your only power. I see no reason to out a PR over this.

Unfortunately, this doesn't mean Blaze is lying, as Kast points out. It does however, give us further information about setup. Check this out:

Role claims (players still alive):

vezopiraka - Derek Klivian
BlazezRb - Jek Porkins
Kthxbye - Princess Leah
danakillsu - Biggs Darklighter
bv310 - Luke Skywalker
wolframnhart - R2D2
Kast - Han Solo

d3x - Wickett

Flipped Townies role name:
Crix Madine
C-3PO
Yoda
Wes Jansen
Vanden Willard

One of these things is not like the others. (Hint, I've bolded it for you). Every single one of these roles has been a fighter or leader of the old republic/rebel alliance. I guess you could claim Wickett helped the rebel alliance, but frankly I think that is a stretch.

Um, no, you're not. You probably aren't even LEIA Organa, since you botched your claim. And let's say you are who you say you are. It doesn't prove Blaze is scum. He wouldn't have been told that he was roleblocked (as per E4, which the mod JUST POINTED US TO!!!), so as far as he knew, what he said was true. Homs: Kthxbye

First, what is with you jumping on the botched spellings as somehow proof they are lying? We've gone over this before, the scum clearly have fake claims. A botched spelling of a character name does not make a player scum, it makes them careless. You again seem really desperate. And what is "Homs"? Hand of minor suspicion? Doesn't that defeat the whole purpose of a HOS? Why not just FOS? Something bothers me about this "Homs". If you think something deserves a HOS, do this:

HOS: danakillsu

I'm not unvoting because I'm not yet convinced Blaze isn't scum.

[LimMePls]

I guess the masons are an exception, but that doesn't really hurt the analysis, after all masons are there own little sub-group.

[LimMePls]

I agree 100% with 1262, which seems to be the case whenever Kast is posting.

@Kast what do you make of the "3 VT" post that Blaze made? I quote it and discuss it briefly in 1258.

I do not think lynching d3x for a town flip is a good idea. I also find it interesting if your claim that your PM specifically mentions you being a fighter is true. Of course, now that I think about it, I guess my name speculation doesn't do us any good since the scum would probably all have safe claims that also fit into that subset of Star Wars characters. Chewbacca and Lando would both also qualify.

I really hate that ScottB got "cleared" and has since gone into turbo-lurking. He lurked bad enough before, but he seems to think that he is now safe to just coast.

Blaze still seems like the best lynch so far today.

[LimMePls]

How would his team know that their target is a VT?

They targeted a claimed VT like d3x? I dunno why they would target a claimed VT, I guess I'm just looking for evidence. It may be some confirmation bias too, because he just reads so damn scummy. I just don't understand his play. And I don't see a better lynch.

[LimMePls]

1291 seems perfectly logical. The only other possibility is that kdub made a mistake.

So, kdub made a mistake or one of those two are lying scum. I'm banking on the latter. Can't wait to see this flip.

[LimMePls]

I never learned to read.

LIES!

[LimMePls]

Now hold on a minute. When I posted 1292 I was arguing that one of the two of you had to be lying or the mod made a mistake. Technically I said "lying scum" but thats because I assumed that the liar would be lying because they were scum.

Blaze's flip showed he WAS lying, so that satisfies my point in 1292, although he wasn't scum. I still don't understand why he was lying so much, other than sheer newbieness.

I don't understand your attack on me though. I can't play anymore pro-town than I've been playing this game. Your post seems hyper defensive Kthx. Feeling guilty about something?

[LimMePls]

So we're looking for a Speed Lynch, then?

Not me. I don't much like Kthx's quick opening hyper defensive posts. I'd like to hear what Kast has to say about dana investigating innocent, as I'm not sure I buy it. I also am not wild about the mass name claim.

I'm suspicious of Kthx, Scott B, DP and to a lesser extent d3x. Scott B's most recent post illustrates once again his complete unwillingness in helping us hunt scum. I already made that case about the names, all he is doing is parroting and voting the only wagon that exists.

@Scott B: If d3x flips Empire scum, who do you think his scum buddy is?

[LimMePls]

^^ Care to explain?

[LimMePls]

Here are my problems with this entire post.
1. Only 2 of the 4 people you are suspicious of are on the list we should be lynching from.

I didn't say we have to lynch from that list today, I said those were the people I was suspicious of. I agree with you that we shouldn't lynch those who have been investigated yet, but I'm still suspicious of Scott. I'm guessing the other you don't think we should lynch is you, but I find your play today quite alarming. Dana screamed desperation yesterday, and now it's you that seems desperate.

2. What exactly don’t you buy about my claim given yesterday’s events?

Just because you had a mass roleblock doesn't mean your town. There was a bounty award of a stun grenade earlier in the game, and I think the Jabba scum might have gotten the bounty if no one collected it. Just a possibility. You are by no means confirmed town, and your behaviour today is really scummy to me.

3. Although there could be one more Godfather out there for empire, and it could be one of the 2 investigated people, how is it helping town to try and find that person?

I think being aware that we can't call the investigated players confirmed is very important. Do I think they are on the list for today's lynch? Of course not, but they shouldn't drop off our radar entirely. I never said that was my lynch today list, I said it was the people I'm suspicious of.

4. Why do you need to hear what Kast has to say about the investigation results? I REALLY don’t get this.

You really don't get why I want to hear what Kast thinks? He is both the most pro-town player this game AND the best scum hunter IMO. He also really thought that dana was scum, so I'm wondering if his opinion has changed. Again, questioning the investigation results while there is still an empire GF possible is not anti-town. I didn't say we had to lynch dana, I just was wondering what Kast thinks, because I'm not convinced dana is town. His play yesterday was pretty scummy. The only reason I (and I suspect many others) went after Blaze was his incredibly terrible play yesterday. Before that sideshow started dana was one of the players in the hot seat.

5. You of all people I would have thought would have been interested in a name claim for everyone left. You are the original creator of the names case after all.

After last night's no kill, since we obviously didn't have a mass block, I'm concerned that there may be an important town PR still hidden. Of those who have supported the name claim so far, I guarantee there is a scum. If the town wants it, I'll do it, but I'm not convinced it's a good idea.

6. Again, Scott is investigated and found not evil no matter how scummy and worthless his posts are.

I'm not taking my eye off him, whether you like it or not. He is worthless to the town, and I'm going to keep calling him out over it. If you don't like that, tough shit, but I can't possibly imagine how that is anti-town.

[LimMePls]

The only reason I (and I suspect many others) went after Blaze was his incredibly terrible play yesterday.

lol. the rest of us went after him because he lied about having a successful PR after I mass RB'ed. Please tell me LMP, why you don't think I am who I say I am.

This is what I meant by his terrible play Kthx, and I think you know that. I think we can all agree that him lying about his ability, then lying about the PMs he received from the mod is terrible play.

As for the name claim, it looks like 2 have already done it, so no point in arguing against it now. I'm Mon Mothma, an important political leader for the rebel alliance.

[LimMePls]

I think might not be who you say you are because of 1306, pretty much calling me and d3x out for being scum for a bull shit reason. The hyper defensiveness looks really scummy to me. Especially if you are who you say you are, you shouldn't feel the need to be so incredibly defensive. I can't speak for d3x, but I know that when I posted 1292 I thought that whichever of you was lying would only be doing so if they were scum. Clearly one of you was lying, and it was Blaze, he just didn't turn out to be scum. You definitely may be who you say you are, but you are massively over defensive in 1306.

You specifically came out calling me and d3x scum, and your reasoning (1291 and 1292) was obviously crap. Just because I thought either you or Blaze was scum? Anyone with half a brain thought that yesterday.

[LimMePls]

LMP's attack of Kthx is bad bad bad. Kthx is almost undoubtably town, how are you not seeing this?

Am I the only one that thinks Kthx's 2nd post today seemed scummy? Maybe I'm too defensive since he calls me scum in it, but that post was completely unnecessary. See my other posts for my explanation of 1292. We all thought one of Kthx or Blaze was going to flip scum there. The fact that he felt so hyper-defensive about it struck me as not compatible with being "undoubtably town". If he is so "undoubtably town" what was the need for his immediate defensiveness?

Yeah, with all the name claims now, d3x's seems very off. What's the flavor for Wickett? BTW, Kthx, Chewy was a fakeclaim used by Wreck Star.

This is why I made the original name case yesterday. I knew who I was and I was seeing everyone else's flips/claims and d3x's claim is very strange in that group. DP's unNKable claim while we're just name claiming seems strange. It also doesn't fit because all of the other pilots who have had powers have been 1-shot powers.

I don't like DP's claim, for obvious reasons. I really think we should lynch him or Vezo today.

I actually think today's lynch should be d3x or DP, and of the two, DP's claim seems worst to me.

Vote: DP

[LimMePls]

Empire members seems to have somewhat major characters (as far as their impact, not screen time) as their fake claims, and that's what Lynch claimed.

What are you smoking? How can Mon Mothma and Obi Wan be anywhere near the same thing impact wise? Mon Mothma is a really minor character.

[LimMePls]

"BTW, totally forgot to mention this earlier, but I have a pretty good reason to believe that Vezo is fakeclaiming." - you should share this info right now.

Agreed.

[LimMePls]

Well, I guess I was getting at who do you think is MORE likely scum? d3x or DP. Decide that and leave or switch your vote. I'm not getting why you feel you need to wait for others to tip the scales one way or the other before you make this stance. If you think d3x is more likely scum, you should be convincing others that this is the case, not waiting for others to decide which way they are going to go. It's slightly scummy tbh.

FoS: dana

I agree. Coupled with his play yesterday, and now you see why I wanted to hear Kast's opinion on bv's investigate result. dana keeps seeming scummy to me, although Scott B has mentioned that he thinks dana always seems scummy. Thus I want a confirmed and smart pro-town player's read of the situation. I bought dana's claim at first, but something isn't adding up.

[LimMePls]

Meh. I got that from Lynch's MisQuote above.

That's not a misquote, that is a direct quote of ooba. ooba wasn't clear on who the quote was from. Just sayin.

I'd also really like to hear from Kast before a lynch.

[LimMePls]

I think today's Lynch should be between myself, DP, and vezo. I'm putting myself out there because if I live through a few more Days, the practicality of me surviving into an EndGame scenario is really high. I think this would be

horribly

bad for the Town considering the amount of mistrust that's sitting out there on me atm. In fact, I might suggest that Scum are stalling my inevitable Lynch for this exact reason.

A combination of subtle psycological reinforcement with a constant barrage of truthiness. Basically when I flip Wicket VT, I will hold you responsible and I can't tell you that until postgame. Thus when you read back over my posts, a little dagger will cut into you every time.

These two statements are inconsistent. Either you think you should be a candidate for lynch today because you are being setup by scum for endgame, or you want us to feel bad if we lynch you and you flip VT. Why would you want us to feel "a little dagger" every time we read your posts, when you yourself say that maybe we should lynch you. I'm beginning to think you should be the lynch today over DP. You say so yourself that letting you live to endgame would be "horribly bad" for us.

What does this have to do with my claim? And I don't understand why you need someone else's opinion to establish your own. Isn't that what Kthxbye was just falsely accusing me of?

What it has to do with you claim is that I believed it, but ever since then you've been acting scummy, thus making me start to question it. I don't "need someone else's opinion to establish my own", I value another players opinion (specifically Kast) because they are confirmed town and they are smart. I stated my opinion earlier in this day that I'm not sure I trust bv's result on you. I want Kast's take specifically because he was suspicious of you and your claim for awhile. He was pretty sure you were the last Jabba scum, which means you wouldn't be a GF. So I'm wondering what he makes of the investigation result. I don't even understand your question about what Kthxbye was "falsely" accusing you of, could you please explain what you mean?

Hypocrisy=fos:Lynch

Please explain my "hypocrisy", cause I don't see it.

[LimMePls]

dana's hyper-defensiveness even after being investigated seems really scummy to me.

[LimMePls]

@dana Asking Kast for his opinion on the investigation results is not the same as being wishy washy about which of the two wagons you are going to be on based on who votes where. Once again, my opinion is already formed and I've put it out there, I'm simply asking another player what their take on the situation is. You say you'll vote on either one, once you see where others are voting. I'll even quote it so you can't claim I'm misrepping:

If more people want to lynch him, I'd be glad to help out.

That looks like blatant band wagonning. As Kthxbye pointed out, if you think one of them is scummier than the other, then vote that one. But saying you'll "help out" on another case you think isn't as solid seems scummy to me. The difference between that and me asking another player for their take on a position that I've already taken a firm stand on is pretty large.

As for Kast's towness, it isn't just that he has a confirmed ability, it is the totallity of his play all game plus his PR use that makes me call him confirmed. Apparently the players object to that, so fine, I won't call him confirmed, I'll call him "all but confirmed". You on the other hand have been scummy all game long. An investigation does not convince me you are town because of your play. We cannot dismiss the possibility that there is a scum PR that is messing with the investigation, and we have every reason to suspect another GF. Therefore, Kast's outstanding town play contrasted to your scummy play definitely weighs pretty heavy in my reads of the two of you. I also ask him the question because, as I've already pointed out, he was pretty sure you were scum, so I want to know how the investigation changes his opinion.

@d3x I still think there is an inconsistency. I don't get why you'd want us to "feel the dagger" if you admit you are a possible lynch, and you even say yourself that you surviving to end game would be horrible for us.

Tons of AtE in d3x's recent posts, much more than the last time he was at L-2 when he claimed. Not really sure what to make of it.

This was my point, it seemed like AtE to me, saying we'd be sorry if we lynched you, but you yourself said that you were a viable lynch candidate today. It seems inconsistent to me.

[LimMePls]

I've definitely said why I think vezo is scummy. I don't think doing an iso of somebody is working yet (I can't seem to find it), but if you can, check my posts from the previous day or two and you'll find it. The claim is just the icing on the cake.

To do an ISO, go to bottom and "Sort By: Author". It will then sort the post by player and in chronological order. Then just find the page for the player you want to ISO and you can ISO from there. Its clumsier than before, but definitely doable.

[LimMePls]

I believe BV's investigation; if Dana is scum I can't see him as Empire scum, and I don't really see a second Jabba scum GF.

I agree with him not being a GF. I don't think he is Empire either. I think there may be some scum power roles out there still, and that is why I'm suspicious of him. Well that and his play. Either way, he definitely isn't the lynch today.

My vote for today would go to DP.

vote: DP

I think it is interesting that scum finally tried killing BV. That could be a point against d3x who was a likely investigation target given that BV actually tried investigating him the previous night. At the least, it tells us there is a scum group who can still be caught and is worried about being caught (ie someone BV was likely to target).

This is a really good point. Other than d3x, who else would have been afraid of an investigate? DP?

[LimMePls]

Are you suggesting that the Scum team have multiple Investigation Immune Roles? With the potential of an Empire GF? Wha--?

You know what, I'm not even sure what I'm saying. All of this is pretty irrelevant to today's lynch, so I'm not sure the speculation is all that helpful. I guess we can debate this more when it becomes more relevant. I just keep getting scum vibes from dana, and I'm trying to explain it. Perhaps I'm getting a bit of tunnel vision, so I'll let it go. But later in the game, if we're just down to the investigated players, I'm coming back to this, because he just keeps setting off my scumdar.

[LimMePls]

GD it all. The only part of your last post that makes me want more discussion is the people on your wagon.....None of whom I'd call town and in fact many of whom I've called scum.

Unvote

till others get a chance to weigh in. I'd also like to hear ooba's promised post before we lynch today.

I don't get this. As I've said before, it shouldn't matter much who's on the wagon. Slicey's town, you're town, I've been confirmed town, and I believe d3x is Scum mafia. Why does it matter if Lynchmepls is also on the wagon? Just because some suspicious people are on the wagon, you're not going to lynch someone who almost everything else against them? As far as hearing ooba's post, fine, but I expect to see you back on the wagon if he says nothing important about DP, because I'm getting tired of the cold feet. Just remember, Scum mafia wants Empire mafia lynched just as much as town does, so let's take advantage of that instead of having misgivings about it.

Wow, dana sets off my scumdar once again. *remembers that he promised to drop it*. I'll at least point out that I got chastised earlier for calling Kast confirmed town, yet here dana is calling himself confirmed, which IMO is much scummier.

I'm against going to quickly, so I'm fine with his unvote until we're all ready to end the day. I'd like to hear from ooba as well.

One last remark: the suggestion that the jabba group could have recruiting ability is worth taking a second look at tomorrow.

@DP: Are you suggesting that Slicey's argument that the Jabba scum could recruit is a reason to suspect Slicey? If so, do you have any other analysis about Slicey you feel like you want to share. If not, then what do you mean its worth further discussion? You aren't lynched yet, you could actually contribute if you are what you claim you are.

[LimMePls]

Wait why is Slicey town? Also nobody is confirmed until they flip.

I wouldn't go that far. Wolf is confirmed, since he claimed mason and his mason buddy later flipped mason. I guess bv isn't confirmed, but it's so certain that I'm comfortable thinking of him as confirmed. That said I agree with your sentiment here.

[LimMePls]

- I am guessing symmetry of roles points to RC being an officer. (6 and 6) Therefore in case there is a last jabba scum, they should be in the pilots.

I'm not following why he assumes RC's role was an officer. We never saw an RC fake claim, so assuming this doesn't seem right. @ooba What is the reason for speculating this?

Other than that, I agree with his point that if we find an Empire scum amongst the pilots we should look for one amongst the leaders. SoG fake claimed Obi-wan, who is definitely in the leader camp. So, an empire scum amongst the pilots seems likely. Chwebacca is the only Jabba scum fake claim we know, and since Chewie would fit better amongst the pilots, that would mean we should be looking for Jabba scum amongst the officers. The only problem is that if RC's fake claim was an officer, as ooba seems to suggest, then that means that there was one Jabba officer and one Jabba pilot, so we should be looking where exactly for the third?

I think DP is the best lynch today. The reason based on his role is because his claim doesn't fit with all the other pilot claims, including confirmed pilot flip from farside22 being a 1-shot, and I'm assuming the Han Solo 1-shot is because he is a pilot too. dana claims a pilot PR and also says it is 1-shot. If DP had claimed 1-shot bodyarmor that would have seemed more fitting with what we've seen from the setup. Plus the fact that he offered the power even though we were only doing name claims. Add all of this to the fact that he hasn't been very helpful this game, I'd say pretty much lurking while at the same time saying we should lurker hunt, and even now in his post where he concedes his lynch he only offers a vague point about looking at Slicey's recruit suggestion. Couldn't he discuss what he means by this before his lynch if he is trying to help the town? Since we suspect there is scum amongst the pilots, he seems like the most likely candidate.

I'm not sure how d3x fits into all of this pilot/officer speculation, but DP seems the better lynch anyway.

[LimMePls]

@Lynchmepls: seriously, wtf is vague about that statement wrt the jabba group?

Is it worth taking a look at because you think it is possible? Is it worth taking a look at because you think the person who suggested it knows something we don't? Is it worth taking a look at for some other reason? What conclusions do you draw from the situation?

You know, you could actually help us with some discussion, instead of just tell us what to talk about tomorrow. At the least you could clarify what exactly about the suggestion of a Jabba recruit you think we should be talking about.

Again you are almost completely unhelpful.

[LimMePls]

SO we lynch d3x today and hope he's jabba scum ?

Scum-tastic. I think we've been letting your scuminess slide too long as VI town. You are really starting to creep me out.

The ooba NK is awesome. Check this out:

ooba was Wilhuff Tarkin (

Imperial Interrogator

),

So Vader flips Imperial Roleblocker and ooba flips Imperial Interrogator (some form of scum cop I guess). We still suspect the Emperor is in the game as some form of Imperial GF. That means the scum teams are super powerful. We know the Jabba team had a GF and a tracker (kinda an investigation/cop sorta role). This means, if the two teams are structured similarly, the remaining Jabba member is some form of manipulator/blocker. I have a theory that I'm going to develop, it needs some ISO to firm it up. To give you all a taste of what's the come:

HOS: danakillsu

[LimMePls]

Here's a little setup speculation that may or may not be useful. The kill flavor that was used on Jabba clearly indicates Grand Moff Tarkin (the only man in the Empire who ever attempts to use torture). Since the Emperor simply has to be part of the Empire scumteam, there are at least two buddies of SOG out there. Jabba has a few possibilities of scumpals besides Greedo, but none that would absolutely have to be in this game, so I'd say there's probably one, but maybe none left on that team. Also, I'm here to answer questions, so if there are any I missed in my read, please let me know.

Hmm, that's interesting. He seems to be well aware that Grand Moff Tarkin is in the game and has a kill flavor of torturer/interrogator.

I think I'm at L-1. I'll claim, then support my claim, then answer post 919. I'm Biggs Darklighter, Alliance Pilot (One-Shot Busdriver). I was able to switch any two players any one night so that the night actions that target one player instead target the other. (The reason it's one shot is because the Alliance is low on fuel, or so I am told). Anyhow, I didn't need to breadcrumb because SoG accidentally did it for me. He has a lot of posts on the subject, but mainly his iso post 31. He said he did not TARGET THC last night. Why did he put it this way even though we know for a fact that he did kill THC? Because that night, I switched THC and farside. I think anyone who believes it's between me and d3x should see clearly that he should be the one lynched, since all he has is a VT claim with no support.
And about post 919, it seems a bit ridiculous that you want me to say again that I was wrong. I was saying you calling my vote a blatant bandwagon vote wasn't backed up very well. I now think it was backed up well, although not well enough for it to be true.

Here's his claim. I'll spend the next few quotes explaining my observations. I admit that I bought his claim at first. I only started getting suspicious of him later when his play seemed desperate scum to me. With the ooba flip I'm now almost sure he is scum.

I was thinking that Farside was just a VT, and so I thought it would be best if those who wanted THC (a mason) dead just killed Farside. Instead it ended up being the other way around. You might ask why I didn't switch THC with a scummy player, but I really had no scum candidates at the time.

Two possibilites.
1) The bounty didn't count as a night action.
2) The bounty was placed on farside, switched to THC, and then switched back because THC died.
I don't really know how this happened, of course. All I did was choose my targets. If I claimed to know exactly what went wrong, I'd be lying scum.

So he wants us to believe he 1-shot bus drivered THC and farside, which in and of itself made no sense as others pointed out. But even worse, when someone points out that the Jabba bounty should have been bus drivered too, he has to concoct some crazy "it wasn't a night action" story, and even more absurd is "or it switched but then because of the kill it switched back". WHAT!?!? That is laughable.

Oh yeah, and this. I have enough fuel to fly to a nearby planet and return but that's it. So I draw the conclusion that the idea is that I'm transporting a player from my planet to a nearby one and returning with a different player that was on that planet. Is that what you were looking for?

As others have pointed out there are significant flavor problems with this description. None of the other pilots have said anything about low fuel in their flavor as a reason for the 1-shot power. Others have also pointed out that Biggs is a fighter pilot, not a transport ship pilot. Other 1-shot pilot abilities have made sense (Wes Jansen roleblock because he fired tow cables, Leia because of the "cease-fire", and Han because... well he's Han). X-wing pilots transporting players makes no sense.

Look. I could have chosen another player, but they could very well have been someone better than farside, someone with an actual PR, which I was pretty sure farside didn't have. I thought I would be able to downgrade the mafia groups' choice of THC, a mason, to a VT.

This is stupid. Why wouldn't the other player be on the planet I'm flying to? That's just the idea behind my Night Action. It's not supposed to be something that would always happen in real life. That's the point of flavor. It's supposed to be coincidental. If you were to try to say that I screwed up my claim, this would not be a great way to try to prove it. This is just like asking why a busdriver is able to switch two players during the night.

Here he even illustrates some of the flavor problems with his claim, when we've seen incredibly good flavor fits for all the other PRs. Leia's mass RB, Wes Jansen's tow cable, Luke's investigates, Yoda's JOAT, Wedge's bulletproof, Vader's roleblocking, Jabba's bounties, Han's vig, Greedo's tracking... help me out if I've forgotten anything. All of these abilities are perfectly fitting to the characters. Biggs bus driver is not.

Sort of, but not really. I wasn't actually planning on farside dying, although as I said in my claim post, I did want her dead instead of THC, if it came down to it. The difference is that if the scum tried to roleblock or do some sort of investigation on THC to see if he actually was a mason, they wouldn't accomplish anything. Also, I guess I didn't know for 100% sure that farside was a townie, since I didn't necessarily trust the investigation result. What all this is saying is that I didn't pull the trigger on farside, or even attempt to. I just realized that if worst came to worst, I didn't want THC dead, and I knew for sure that someone else would be better dead than THC: farside. Is it at all unclear what I'm saying, because it's obvious when you understand what I did that it had a very good chance of helping the town a lot. But the best laid plans of mice and men...

Here he flounders around for some excuse to his obvious terrible claim that he bus drivered farside and THC. Also, he suggests that he wants to throw off scum investigators. Why on Night 1 would he have suspected scum investigators? Did we have any reason to know that a scum investigator would exist? We didn't see Greedo flip until day 2. Also, with claimed masons in the game why would the scum have even targeted farside to get swapped to THC? THC or wolf would have been a more natural target for an NK.

I'm glad you thought about this, but I can't tell you any more than I have. Do you guys all have really complex flavor PM's? (It's rhetorical, don't answer if you don't want to) I sure don't. I'm not going to just make up something that's not in my PM and have it shot down by whatever people who know Star Wars better than I do.

Here he tries to wave off the flavor problems by saying he doesn't have a complex flavor PM. Well, I'll say it, my flavor PM makes perfect sense. Kdub did an excellent job with PMs, and they have a good amount of flavor to them. I now believe dana messed up the flavor because the scum have fake name claims, but not full fake PMs. Look at the WreckStar and hp flavor claims and how terrible they were.

3) Darth Vader and I both had roleblocking/redirection abilities, so I don't really see another roleblocker anyway.

Jackpot! Why is this so incredible? Because there WAS ALREADY ANOTHER TOWN CONFIRMED RB in farside. Why does dana lump himself with Darth Vader in this post, but leave out farside? I believe this was a massive scum slip. I remember observing it at the time, but I didn't register it as scummy, just being forgetful. Only now, with the current evidence from the ooba flip did this click into place.

Add all of this together plus dana's incredible scummy play, and I suspect that dana is not Biggs Darklighter 1-shot bus driver. I suspect dana is some Jabba character that is a redirector. He redirected bv to an innocent townie (most likely back to bv himeself, or maybe wolf), and thus got an innocent result.

ISO dana's play please, pay particular attention to the day when he was the lynch discussion. He was so scummy that day it was ridiculous. Here are a few of the gems. The only thing that saved his ass was Blaze's lying. Also note that earlier in the game he tried to insinuate that bv310 could be scum, and only retracted that statement when we pointed out how scummy it was. Then later, when he does get investigated, he wraps himself in the cloak of investigation as a reason we can't be suspicious of him, even though he continues to be scummy.

I'd like to hear everyone else's thought on this, but I'm convinced.

Vote: danakillsu

Time to die scum.

[LimMePls]

@Mod-

Do you allow a standard bus driver to select himself as one of his two targets?

No.

This is irrelevant. If he is a redirector, he doesn't have to target himself, correct? He just chooses someone to redirect and where it will go.

[LimMePls]

Ooba flipping Tarkin as an "Imperial Interrogator" once again rings all kinds of bells that Dana's conviction that Tarkin was an Interrogator responsible for Jabba's death by Torture is based on private information.

LMP's "theory" about scum team symmetry also just made me realize that if Dana is a Scum manipulator of sorts, his bus driver claim is probably true (but not one shot), and it unclears the investigation on him, since the obvious move for a scum busdriver under suspicion is to swap himself with a known townie. This depends on whether the bus driver could self-target.

For the Reader's Digest version of what I'm saying, read this^^!

Has anyone else noticed that Scott's Lynch candidates match ooba's almost

identically

?

I do notice that. If I'm correct, and I'm pretty sure I am, then it calls into question all of bv's investigations after WreckStar. I've suspected Scott scum since I joined.

One interesting thing to note that adds further credibility to my theory is that since his guilty on WS, bv has gotten nothing but innocent results. This would be explained by dana redirecting bv every night, since he couldn't be sure what night he would get investigated.

[LimMePls]

There was a Godfather on Jabba team, it is likely the scum teams are balanced. Since a Godfather has not flipped, it seems rather obvious that it is going to be the Emperor. Dana has been cleared by bv, therefore he is most likely not on the Jabba team. Therefore the only role is the investigation immune Empire player which is probably Palpatine.

I may or may not have internet until Friday for the record.

Scott, my point is that the Empire team had a roleblocker and an investigation role. The Jabba team had a GF and an investigation role. Thus we suspect the Emperor as a GF and a Jabba redirector/manipulator. That with dana's scummy play plus inside information plus by his own words comparing himself with Vader plus his implausible explanation for his use of his 1-shot redirection make us believe that he turned up innocent because he was redirecting bv. We're not saying he is a GF.

[LimMePls]

Says that I must be scum because I compared myself to Vader. That's stupid, because I didn't. Just saying that we had/have similar roles doesn't mean I'm saying I'm like him. I could say farside and Darth Vader had similar roles. Does that make farside scum? Let's all shake our head no...

But you DIDN'T say farside, that's the whole point. The idea was mentioned that there could be a roleblocker. You said there couldn't be another roleblocker (which turns out to be untrue, but is beside the point) because Vader and you were enough. You completely failed to mention farside. What do you and Vader have in common that you and farside don't? Why would you mention that Vader being an RB and your claim precluded other RB/manipulations? You are the one who associated your role with Vaders. If you were town your role would be much more comparable to farsides. Also, farside didn't just claim roleblocker, she RB'd SoG, which is the whole reason we knew he was scum. Your statement "Darth Vader and I both had roleblocking/redirection abilities, so I don't really see another roleblocker anyway. " looks like a scum slip to me. There was already 1 proven town role blocker, and Kthx has proved there was another.

Also note how you say "redirection" here, not "bus driver" or "switching"

. You have massively scum slipped and you need lynching now.

@Lynch
How do you know that I could make myself/others appear innocent if I was a scum redirector?

Is this a trick question? Because you are a scum redirector you would just redirect bv to someone obv town (like wolf who is a confirmed mason). Then when he checks you or anyone else, he'd really get the result from wolf, which is innocent.

You make a list nit picking my case, and then you don't even bother to comment on what you think about me for making the case, you just carry on with a d3x vote. You are so scummy now it's sick. I just called you Jabba scum, and you seem no more incensed than to wave your hand dismissively and carry on. If someone was calling me scum I'd be all over it. Hell, when Kthx did it yesterday I was all over it.

If you're not scum I'll eat my hat and post a pic in the end game.

[LimMePls]

Why would dana be jabba scum?
All he said until now makes me think that he's darth vader.
VOTE: danakillsu

He says GMT is in this game. He could have known this only if he was on the same scum team.
He says DV has a powerful night ability. I wonder how he knows that.
Maybe ooba switched bv target with dana knowing that the result will come out "can't be identified" essentially working like a RB.

Vezo please try and follow along, Darth Vader is dead already. semioldguy was Darth Vader.

Your vote is still in the right place though, even if for the wrong reason.

[LimMePls]

Ahh. Stupid me. I meant The emperor. That's why he flipped as town for the investigation. because he's the GF.

That seems like a possibility if you just rely on the information from now, but if you look at his earlier interactions with WreckStar, ReaperCharlie, and semioldguy it seems much more likely that he is the last Jabba scum. Add on the fact that he claim bus driver, but then later says

redirector

, plus the implausibility of his role claim, and he is absolutely Jabba scum.

There is a difference between bus drivers and redirectors, and it isn't semantic. Here are the links to the wiki for them:
Bus Driver - http://www.mafiascum.net/wiki/index.php ... Bus_Driver
Redirector - http://www.mafiascum.net/wiki/index.php ... Redirector

They are clearly different. He originally claims one-shot bus driver here:

I think I'm at L-1. I'll claim, then support my claim, then answer post 919. I'm Biggs Darklighter, Alliance Pilot (One-Shot Busdriver). I was able to switch any two players any one night so that the night actions that target one player instead target the other.

And then later he says he is a redirector, while comparing himself with Vader, here:

3) Darth Vader and I both had roleblocking/redirection abilities, so I don't really see another roleblocker anyway.

So which is it dana, are you a redirector or a bus driver?

[LimMePls]

@ Lynch
I do find your faulty attacks against me slightly suspect, but you already know that I find d3x unbelievably scummy.

Name one thing about d3x other than his wickett role name that you find scummy about him please.

Also, you have no good defense for your scum slip of posting redirector other than "oh I just forgot" or "I didn't want to type out bus driver", so naturally that's the only defense you are going to use. I propose it wasn't forgetfulness, and it wasn't that you wanted to type redirector instead of bus driver, but that you genuinely scum slipped. You are a redirector and not a bus driver.

Can you explain again for everyone here why you bus drivered farside and THC? Why wouldn't you bus driver THC with someone who was actually useless to the town, thus reducing the possibility of a scum actually targeting your choice, and better protecting THC, or even possibly causing a scum cross kill. Why did you swap THC with someone you admit you had a town read on? Why chose THC and not wolf, who saved THC by confirming their mason status?

[LimMePls]

Name one thing about d3x other than his wickett role name that you find scummy about him please.

Restated because it was ignored.

[LimMePls]

So I guessed Darth Vader?

RC (your probable buddy) guessed Darth Vader and you immediately backed him up fully on that and added that he has a powerful night action.

This is even more powerful evidence that he knew more about the setup than the rest of us. I didn't even spot this, I guess partially because I hadn't replaced in yet when this happened. This was on D1. How did he know Vader would have a power as well as a nightkill? We had seen 0 flips at this point, for all we knew the mafia were a don and goons. Why does he propose that Vader has a powerful night action? If he were townie like he claims, all he knows is that there are masons and he has a 1-shot. This is not compelling evidence that the scum must have powerful night actions.

With this much evidence it's all but assured. You can nit pick at individual pieces all you want, but the mountain of it is still there. The odds that all of these things happened and you are not scum is 0.

[LimMePls]

@Dana you just got caught up in too many strange circumstances/statements. Its possible any one or two of the situations we pointed out could have been explained away or circumstantial, such as your statements about GMT/Vader, but there were just too many things that added up to scum. I have one question that hasn't already been asked, why did you claim to bus driver THC/farside? That part just didn't make sense to me.

As for your list of d3x, me or Slicey, the only one I agree with is Slicey. I'm starting to think d3x is exactly what he claims. He started to convince me when he said his role PM said he was a fighter, as my original name observations was fighters/leaders, not pilots/leaders. He also hasn't done anything I see as scummy since.

From scummiest to least of the remaining players I've got:
Scott B
Vezo
Slicey
d3x
Kthxbye

I leave wolf off the list because his mason claim confirms him IMO, and Kast because you claim you redirected bv to Kast and we got an innocent result.

[LimMePls]

Given the flavor of the kill, it is obvious the Emperor remains and that Jabba's team is done.

Thanks Captain Obvious.

I am still up for a d3x or vezo lynch. We really need to hear from Slicey today though.

Why d3x? Can you name one good case on d3x that doesn't involve his role name or Kthx's gut read (which has apparently changed)?

I'd like to hear from Slicey also. Vezo is definitely near the top of my list as well.

As of right now, the players I'd support lynching today:
Scott B
Vezo
Slicey

I need to ISO these players.

[LimMePls]

Just finished that Scott B ISO. So the maddening thing is that there is little to really get a grip on. 49 posts, but they are all pretty small and don't really give much to read. Here are the highlights:

You are being as useless as D1.

Vote: bv310

In terms of setup, I agree with farside about the 2 kills more likely being SK/scum rather than 2 scum teams.

Can we stop with these soft claims? If you are a role and feel its time to claim, then claim.

So this post is D2, where all we've seen is hp neutral flip and two towns NK'ed. The speculation here seems premature to conclude that it isn't two scum teams.

@ooba- What Star Wars character would be tracker scum?

This is the only interaction I see with either ooba or SoG, and this can only very generously be considered an interaction, as its just a setup speculation question. I'd like to read some scum games from Scott B to see how he interacts with his scum partners. This also reminds me that those of us that have time should add ooba and SoG to our ISO lists for the day, to look for links to living players.

Lets look at the past 3 town lynches

Toon Fighter (8) -

Scott Brosius

, Slicey, LynchMePls, Kast,

ooba

, vezopiraka, d3x,

BlazezRb

BlazezRb (7) -

bv310

, Kthxbye, LynchMePls,

wolframnhart

,

ooba

, vezopiraka, d3x
Dragon Phoenix (7) - Slicey, LynchMePls, d3x, Kast, danakillsu,

bv310

, vezokpiraka

d3x and vezo have been on all 3 lynches. Both toward the end of all three wagons (except d3x for DP yesterday). This actually implicates vezo more than I thought as well.

This is one of your few posts where you contribute something helpful to the town. I'd like it if you followed it up with either some conclusions you draw from this analysis, or some questions to the players you find suspicious on these wagons.

@Scott: Can you post some links to recent town and scum games for you? The two most recent of each should be good.

Vezo, Slicey, SoG and ooba ISOs will have to wait for later.

[LimMePls]

Well, as I suspected, you have 0 interactions with your scum buddy in that scum game. As you and wolf point out, this is pretty much how you always play. I am not sure about you. Time for some more ISOs.

[LimMePls]

Finishing up ooba and SoG ISOs now. I figured I'd do them first before I do the Slicey and Vezo reads, so that I can see if there were interactions of note. SoG's stuff didn't really seem all that helpful, probably because half or more of his posts were all defending himself because he was caught scum. ooba on the other hand is a goldmine. Here are some interesting observations.

This post is really fascinating. ooba's play definitely strikes me as someone who is capable of bussing their partner. The following exchange between ooba and d3x is interesting. These two posts read to me like maybe ooba was bussing d3x, d3x responds, and then ooba drops it and goes elsewhere. ooba never votes d3x from here on out, although he continues to push the idea that d3x is possible scum, such as in this post. Another interesting ooba d3x connection is in this post. This really strikes me like ooba protecting scum partner. This would also explain why empire decided to off bv, if they felt d3x was unlikely to be targeted for investigation again (since bv didn't investigate d3x the following night, but investigated dana instead), then ooba would start worrying about getting targeted. And then there is this post where ooba again refuses to jump on the d3x wagon when it was nearing a lynch. Then here, and here again he mentions d3x scum, and once again never votes him. The Slicey vote in that last one could be a bus, but I find it more likely to be going for a mislynch, or a way to distance from d3x while voting someone else. That is 7 posts all pointing to a d3x/ooba connection.

Here and here ooba tries to subtly push for a vezo lynch. Doesn't read like bussing to me the way the d3x exchange did, I think he was genuinely trying for a mislynch on vezo. This looks like favorable evidence for vezo = VI town.

In light of my ISOs on Scott, SoG and ooba, I'm changing my top 3 likely scum to:
d3x
Slicey
Scott

d3x, Slicey, and vezo ISOs to come. I'm going to hold onto my vote until I complete these ISOs.

[LimMePls]

I think a mass claim is in order today. I'm not sure how much it will help though.

I'm ok with a mass claim. If half the town wants to do it, I will. I'd prefer we do it popcorn and since I think we can all agree wolf is town, we should let him pick who goes first.

BTW, Scott is not longer confirmed town obviously. I think he's the scummiest out of the unconfirmeds, mainly because of his coasting after being "confirmed" by bv.

I dunno about scummiest, but I agree with the sentiment here. Add on top of it his complete lack of interactions with SoG and ooba, and his only scum game showing the same pattern, and I agree that Scott is scummy.

Vezo I'm still unsure of because I don't think he's paying enough attention to realize Kast was confirmed town. Still could be a shot in the dark.

My ISO on ooba really makes me think vezo is just VI town and not scum. I still need to do a vezo ISO though, this opinion is subject to change.

Scummiest to least scummiest:
Scott
Vezo
LMP/d3x

Vote: Scott

I'm in support for a Scott or Vezo lynch today.

Take me off that list and we're pretty close to agreement on likely scum, although not the same ordering.

@Slicey: What do you make of d3x? Particularly after my post above this one pointing out the distancing/bussing from ooba?

[LimMePls]

Here are my thoughts during the d3x ISO.

In this post d3x says he finds Scott and SoG suspicious, but isn't for a quick lynch. Now, I was of the same mind, as I didn't want a quick lynch that day either, and I also voted Scott that day, but he follows that post with this one here which reads very much like "get your fake claim in here buddy". This is particuarly interesting given the following ooba quote:

- Plus another point which no one has brought up – SoG’s claim was the most plausible of all scum claims. (it convinced me and Kast). I am sure the empire team put in some effort into that since SoG was on the town suspect list. My point being – it was very good flavor wise – d*x had already claimed to be a star wars nerd earlier in the thread and his post of avoiding a quicklynch give me a vibe that he had a role to play In preparing that FC.

Even more interseting is his stating clearly that he is putting SoG at L-1. He claim later that he was orchastrating to make sure bv got the hammer, but I think it is more because he realized that the claim wasn't going to save SoG and he wanted on the wagon for town cred. He wouldn't fear the cop with a deflector shield as much since he is the empire GF.

Here he is happy to have someone else say he should be investigated, instead of dana, and even points out that if he had suggested it we'd have called him the GF. He then continues the ooba distancing that results in neither ever voting the other.

d3x in this post suggests we should maybe lynch him and that he is being left around because he is fodder for late game scum. At one point he says we'll need to apologize to him at the end of the thread, and here he says he wants us to feel a "dagger" for having doubted him. I called him on the inconsistency, and he replies here. His reply doesn't really address the fact that on the one hand he says he thinks we should lynch him, but on the other he wants us to feel bad afterword. I think he made the suggestion that we should lynch him to help deflect some of the negative attention he was getting. It also sets him up with a perfect excuse for why he is alive late in the game.

Also, if you're truly pulling for Town, are you the last of your team?

Empire scum wanting to know if he can focus on just surviving and end gaming the town?

After all of this plus the connections from ooba, I'm ready to

Vote: d3x

I'm still planning on ISO of Slicey and Vezo, but I think I've seen enough.

[LimMePls]

Just finished ISOing Slicey and Vezo.

Slicey is giving me a pretty strong town read. Here is something else to add to the d3x case though:

Ooba, I don't understand, you keep saying me and LMP are scum because of our connections to d3x. Yet you don't want to lynch him, which would help prove your wrong theory, but would rather lynch me or LMP? I don't understand.

As for Vezo, my read is very strong VI. I'm not sure how to distinguish VI town from VI scum. There seems to be a mix of both. Here are the posts that give me the VI impression. I'll note the ones that seem more scum motivated, and the ones that are more town/null:

Reads the first 36 pages and then stops, even though reading the last 10 pages would be much more useful than the first 36 from a catching up standpoint. Then claims VT. A bit scummy. Here he wants us to lynch Empire and let the Jabba keep running around NKing. It was a terrible idea, but makes the likelihood of him being empire scum lower. Here and here is the botched name claim. Others pointed out at the time, and I agreed, that the scum were much more likely to be careful with there fake claims. Why would scum risk getting lynched by making a careless mistake? It's also interesting because dana twice jumped on people who screwed up there claim. He attacked this, and he pointed out when Kthx said "Leah" instead of "Leia". This post and this post both really bug me. I don't like the "lets vote d3x and hope" business. I think it's either a language barrier problem or just plain VI.

Unfortunately there are almost no interactions with ooba or SoG that I saw, except ooba trying to push a lynch on vezo. I said in the post where I reread ooba that it looked to me like a legitimate mislynch attempt. I think there is a chance vezo is scum, but pretty unlikely.

My top 3 from worst to least is now:
d3x
Scott B
Vezo

[LimMePls]

@Mod: This game is in need of prods please

[LimMePls]

Sound good all? Claims then more votes d3x please.

I agree with pretty much everything you say here. I was waiting to do the claims popcorn style, but I guess since only 3 people need to claim there isn't much point in wasting the time to organize it. I'm Mon Mothma VT.

[LimMePls]

The above is on my assumption that SB isn't the GF for empire.

Why are you making this assumption? If it's not d3x (big if at this point) then I think SB is likely to be the emperor. Why do you think Slicey is more likely than SB, just the names? Don't forget that ooba is the one who brought up the pilot/officer business, and it could have been intentionally to throw us off.

Your response is that I wanted my buddy to come in with a Fake Claim. I contend that it's stupid to Lynch someone without getting a Claim. The potential to MisLynch is much more prevelant without a Claim and we had just caught hp and Wreck Star over botched Claims.

Of course we wanted a claim before the lynch, no one is suggesting we wouldn't want him to claim first. You felt the need to point out he was at L-2 and specifically ask for the claim. You didn't even say "he's at L-2 everyone, so hold the votes until he claims", instead you suggested to him that he should claim. "I would also recommend Claiming, sog. You're at L-2 atm." is much different from "no more votes until a claim". In one you are addressing your comment to the town, and in the other directly sog telling him he should use his claim. And ooba suggested that sog's fake claim had been well prepared, so the empire scum were probably eager to see if it would fool us. He might have known that you were the one who prepared it, which he even suggests in one of his posts.

[LimMePls]

Still nothing new to discuss. I've ISO'd everyone in this game (but KTB and wolf) and provided my thoughts. When I have free time I'm working on a full reread.

[LimMePls]

I guess I'll announce

V/LA until Monday

as well. Holiday weekend and all.

[LimMePls]

Back from my V/LA. I hope everyone who celebrated the 4th of July had a good holiday.

Please tell you're going to Lynch vezo tomorrow. I promise to go quietly.

I'm L-2.

This post concerns me. I think this might be a last ditch AtE to get us to lynch Vezo instead. I still like my vote.

[LimMePls]

vote: vezo

d3x getting lynched today or tomorrow doesn't matter to me much. d3x isn't/hasn't ever been one for AtE. His scum reads are usually very good. If d3x IS town, his read on vezo is probably good. I'm going to suggest we switch vezo and d3x for lynch order as demonstrated by my vote.

I don't like that plan. d3x seems way scummier to me than vezo. I don't even necessarily agree that vezo should be our lynch tomorrow if the game is still going.

@KTB: I understand that vezo isn't very helpful, but what about his most recent posts made him seem worse to you than d3x? d3x has a massive amount of connections to ooba, a few with SoG, and then there is the whole "I think you guys should lynch me... but I'm gonna taunt you for it" buisness. I've ISO'd vezo, and I just don't see anything nearly that scummy.

I'm getting Lynched today, LMP. You don't have to confirm the fact that you feel suspicious about me or my posts. I'd recommend that if you are Town, you refrain from actions that will make you look bad once I flip Town.

I don't understand this post. Because you are probably the lynch today I should stop pointing out any further scummy posts you make? That doesn't make sense at all. This is yet another strange post from you.

[LimMePls]

We are three days away from LyLo. (considering both scumteams have 3 members)

What is your point?

[LimMePls]

Wait. Aside from the IIoA...

considering both scumteams have 3 members

How do you know that both ScumTeams have 3 members? This is a small slip, but it is still a slip. From a Townie, this sentence should read "assuming both ScumTeams have 3 members".

Seriously, you guys are Lynching him tomorrow, right?

I'm starting to come around on vezo a bit. I want an answer to my question.

@vezo: Why does it matter how many days it is until Lylo, and even if it does matter, why do you feel the need to point it out? I think this is what they call IIOA. You are attempting to appear helpful to the town without actually providing anything useful.

[LimMePls]

MOD: Can we get prods on Wolf and Slicey?

They have been prodded.

@Wolf: This close to deadline it would really suck to have one of our confirmed players replaced. Could you please try to participate with us? What do you make of vezo's behavior since he returned from V/LA?

@Slicey: Anything new to add since vezo reappeared?

@Vezo: I've seen you post in other threads, I know you've been on since I asked those questions. Please answer them.

[LimMePls]

This close to deadline it would really suck to have one of our confirmed players replaced.

I disagree wholeheartedly with this. If we have a Confirmed Townie just sitting there Lurking through EndGame, that is a huge detriment to the Town. If he gets replaced, it will be with a presumably more active player. That is a good thing. Do I prefer wolf to actually participate? Yes. Is it a bad thing if he gets replaced because he won't? Not one bit.

I just meant it would suck to have someone have to catch up to the game this late in. Of course I'd rather have the slot participating that not participating, hence my asking for a prod. I agree with your point that the confirmed player should be more active, I just wish it would be wolf.

@vezo- Allowing that you're not lying about anything; what was the purpose of p1567?

This.

You say you were rushed and didn't get to finish your post. Then why post it? You were nowhere close to a prod. Your explanations aren't quite matching up.

And this.

[LimMePls]

I really have nothing new to add. Fine with lynching d3x or vezo. I'll wait to see if wolf does something and then vote for one of them.

This post seems strange to me. Why are you still voting Scott if you think either d3x or vezo should be the lynch? If you think d3x is scum, why are you waiting for wolf, he's already said he thinks d3x is scum. If you think vezo is scum, then vote him, and wolf can hammer either one when he gets back. If you think Scott is scum over those two, then why did you say this at all?

I have a pretty townish read of you, but the fence-sitting here seems strange to me.

[LimMePls]

This is really disappointing.

[LimMePls]

We're waiting on your hammer of either Vezo or d3x. Whichever you think is scummier. They are both L-1, and you're the only one not voting, so it's your call.

[LimMePls]

Ok, well, nevermind is confirmed. Of those remaining Slicey is my best town read. That leaves Vezo as idiot scum or Scott as lurker scum. I did ISOs of all these players yesterday and have provided pretty much everything I can about em. I'd like to hear from nevermind and Slicey.

[LimMePls]

Vote: Vezo

[LimMePls]

Vote: Scott Brosius

[LimMePls]

I'll help out with the images Kdub.



Oh no, I'm afraid it is you who are mistaken. About a great many things muahahahahaha!!!!

[LimMePls]

Bah, why'd my image go away? It worked in preview.

Something Something Something Dark Side. Something Something Something Complete.

[LimMePls]

[LimMePls]

News flash Scott, I hammered you.

[LimMePls]

I was a secret voter Scott. That's why there was 1 vote on you. My actual vote was a hammer.

GG Town, I gotta say, you were really hurt by a good number of anti-town players amongst your ranks.

[LimMePls]

Dead players QT:
http://www.quicktopic.com/44/H/ktpUcJ7kP98km

Good job Empire Scum.

@LMP-
If you didn't kill me, I was going to push for Scott's lynch first, then yours if Scott was town. I would have fought the d3x lynch (maybe that's why you killed me?).

When I pushed for the dana lynch, I saw you say something about my "theory". That worried me that you figured out that I knew because I was scum, so that's why I NK'ed you. I was going to wait another day, but of all the players in the game, you were the one I figured was mostly likely to connect the dots. By far you were the town MVP.

We knew dana was scum when he claimed bus driver, but we didn't want him dead yet because we needed his help thinning out the town. When he NK'ed ooba though I knew I couldn't leave him, as he was going after the unconfirmeds. We knew who SoG had really targeted, and it wasn't farside, so the only explanation was that he was a redirector. Ooba figured that one out.

[LimMePls]

LMP that was stellar. Really well played game! I had forgotten you had the secret vote - I thought you had gotten over-excited and lost the game

Thanks VRK! I gotta say I wouldn't have been able to do near that well without some very stellar coaching from my scum mates. I needed a lot of help entering the game from SoG and ooba, and ooba's analysis in scum chat made things really easy even after he was gone.

I'll post the scum chat if I don't hear any objections from my mates in the next 24 hours or so.

And massive props to Kdub, he did a heck of a job. The setup was a lot of fun, and he kept things running really smoothly. Almost an invisible presence, which I'm sure is really tough to do when modding.

Wow, good job LMP. Not once did I suspect you of being scum.

In actuality, I think town lost because of all the VI's this game (TF, Blaze, Vezo, Scott and to a lesser extent CMAR). Empire Mafia did well, but town was just so bad. XD

Also I told you guys d3x was town he literally did nothing scummy all game. Why were so many people pushing his lynch?

I think town definitely had more than its fair share of less than stellar players. The TF, Blaze and Vezo wagons were all way too easy. As for d3x, that was a gift from Kthxbye for his initial push on d3x, and then when his role was wickett, I just made that one hint that it didn't fit. Others took it and ran with it. I dunno if ooba was trying to buddy him on purpose to make a mislynch easier, or if it just happened that way, but ooba did a really good job of making a d3x lynch easier.

[LimMePls]

Says that I must be scum because I compared myself to Vader. That's stupid, because I didn't. Just saying that we had/have similar roles doesn't mean I'm saying I'm like him. I could say farside and Darth Vader had similar roles. Does that make farside scum? Let's all shake our head no...

But you DIDN'T say farside, that's the whole point. The idea was mentioned that there could be a roleblocker. You said there couldn't be another roleblocker (which turns out to be untrue, but is beside the point) because Vader and you were enough. You completely failed to mention farside. What do you and Vader have in common that you and farside don't? Why would you mention that Vader being an RB and your claim precluded other RB/manipulations? You are the one who associated your role with Vaders. If you were town your role would be much more comparable to farsides. Also, farside didn't just claim roleblocker, she RB'd SoG, which is the whole reason we knew he was scum. Your statement "Darth Vader and I both had roleblocking/redirection abilities, so I don't really see another roleblocker anyway. " looks like a scum slip to me. There was already 1 proven town role blocker, and Kthx has proved there was another.

Also note how you say "redirection" here, not "bus driver" or "switching"

. You have massively scum slipped and you need lynching now.

@Lynch
How do you know that I could make myself/others appear innocent if I was a scum redirector?

Is this a trick question? Because you are a scum redirector you would just redirect bv to someone obv town (like wolf who is a confirmed mason). Then when he checks you or anyone else, he'd really get the result from wolf, which is innocent.

You make a list nit picking my case, and then you don't even bother to comment on what you think about me for making the case, you just carry on with a d3x vote. You are so scummy now it's sick. I just called you Jabba scum, and you seem no more incensed than to wave your hand dismissively and carry on. If someone was calling me scum I'd be all over it. Hell, when Kthx did it yesterday I was all over it.

If you're not scum I'll eat my hat and post a pic in the end game.

Why should I eat my hat? He was scum! It was a statement I knew I'd never have to fulfill.

[LimMePls]

^I wanna second this, link pls!

[LimMePls]

When I pushed for the dana lynch, I saw you say something about my "theory". That worried me that you figured out that I knew because I was scum, so that's why I NK'ed you. I was going to wait another day, but of all the players in the game, you were the one I figured was mostly likely to connect the dots. By far you were the town MVP.

Farside's 1-shot block of SoG was pretty clutch for town too, although it would have ended up in no extra kills, it was still an awesome use of the 1-shot.

[LimMePls]

Stop, you'll make me .

I saw no objections, so here is the Empire scum QT.

http://www.quicktopic.com/44/H/8rtxNhHRpXpMW

[LimMePls]

Dang it all! I knew you were scum LMP. You really stepped up at the end to make me doubt myself. Great job.

Thanks. Read the Empire QT. I was sweating when you came after me the day after the Blazez lynch.

[LimMePls]

Yeah I must say I was kind of disappointed with how little effect my ability actually had, especially compared to the Emperor's ability. I would have much rather had something like that.

Frankly, not to be a jerk or anything, but I think you used it poorly. I have no idea why you bountied Farside, and I really have no idea why you would bounty SoG with a 1-shot BP as the reward, when the likely place the town would lynch was SoG already. Did it not occur to you that the town would want to get the already proven cop the BP? Wouldn't it have been better to give him the empire scanner thing instead?