Of Gods And Men (GAME OVER!)

[Iecerint]

I'm a bit amused that ABR is ABR on the player list. ^^;

Vote: dramonic

[Iecerint]

Uh. So it looks like everyone is voting for the player 2 slots below, with word wrap?

Unvote; Vote: Snow_Bunny

.

*This is actually a vote for Mina.*

[Iecerint]

^ Wat

[Iecerint]

Ah, I see what you meant, Niki.

So, I think we should indicate EXPLICITLY whether we're voting for our suspect, or for the player 2 slots above our suspect.

[Iecerint]

EBWOP: *2 slots below,* but ye know. <_<

[Iecerint]

OK, now we're reaching the limits of suspension of disbelief.

Apparently not. Look at the numbers themselves, Mina.

[Iecerint]

^ I assume that's correcting your failed DTM vote? O.o

[Iecerint]

Vote: DarkStalker

PLEASE ALSO SAY WHO YOUR VOTE IS *ACTUALLY* FOR WHEN YOU VOTE. FAILING TO DO SO CREATES UNNECESSARY CONFUSION.

@ all.

[Iecerint]

DS, who's your other half? Or, the half that isn't ani?

[Iecerint]

Look at the numbers.

[Iecerint]

Question to DTMaster and Ortolan: do you know why were you both added to the game? Were you recruited by a specific faction?

I have a few theories about the set-up, but I'm worried they'll lead to rolefishing.

[Iecerint]

That said, yeah, I feel for any hypothetical town Old Gods out there.

[Iecerint]

TRIPLEPOST

Why do you ask, ABR? What useful information do you think that would give you?

I second this.

[Iecerint]

Fate, you should unvote and vote SaintKerrigan if you want to vote DarkStalker.

Also, yeah, failing to pick up on it by now shows you aren't reading the thread.

Unvote; Vote: dramonic

. (This is on Fate.) Preview edit: This was before his OMGUS, even.

Dunno what to do with the Worship mechanic. I'd say the Old Ones are a priori scummy, or at least 3rd party, based on flavor, but, from a mechanics perspectives, all the groups are probably mostly equally scummy in the short term.

As for Els's idea...on the one hand, it's like an RVS on the worship votes, except that it's not really one that necessarily has anything to do with scum-town alignment (unless the Old Gods are all scum or something, but then they'd probably just lie about who they want to worship, anyway). It might be useful long-term if there are incidentally lots of scum in one of the other 3 godsets, but I'm inclined to believe that it's probably not a productive exercise. Explain why I'm wrong if necessary.

[Iecerint]

OOK, now you people are just baiting me. Are you guys scum feigning ignorance to look innocent, or are you just not reading the thread?

[Iecerint]

You said "I'm looking at you ani." I thought that indicated that your DarkStalker vote was meant for, ye know, ani. (Not Niki, which is who you apparently intended.)

What's awkward about RVSing the "right person"? Isn't that sort of the goal of all votes?

[Iecerint]

EBWOP: My sentence before the one you quoted makes it clear that I thought you were intending to vote DS.

[Iecerint]

Uh. Your argument is that Niki did that intentionally because he already knew about the vote mechanic? O_o

That. Um. Hmm. Well, I would never do that as scum, at least. <_<

[Iecerint]

I considered Mina to be rolefishing. I think rolefishing is almost always scummy, and I have no reason to believe that this is an exception. I'm think her explanation after I pointed out the discrepancy is OK for now, though, so I left it alone after that.

But I should note that, upon reflection, it's a little weird that this sequence of events would happen:

1. Mina considers whether she should ask about the late addition's alignment.
2. Mina decides it's OK and asks.
3. Mina says she's worried about set-up speculation leading to role-fishing.

I think I would've expected townMina to lampshade (2) in (3). It's in the back of my head.

Re: Fate, from his post, it looks like he's intending to vote ani (=DS). So it looks like he's voting his suspect rather than the fellow 2 above the fellow. Hence, not understanding the rules in some way. I did notice his second point, but interpreted it as like cosmic dramatic irony or some unknown mechanic due to his vote for DS appearing serious.

The only point of the vote mechanic ability (as far as we know) is to create confusion about vote targets. Up to a point, it is reasonable to be confused, but after that point, your behavior is anti-town at best, either because:

1. You are not reading.
2. You have poor reading comprehension.
3. You are scum overestimating how long it reasonably takes town to figure shit out and are consequently overshooting.
4. You are scum trying to bring confusion.

[Iecerint]

I'm kinda ambivalent about ABR's exercise -- it's not as if there's nothing to talk about, so it might just derail us without accomplishing anything, but I like doing what ABR tells me to for the most part, so I'll oblige:

4x4xjuiced SK'd be my guess. Large games I've played all have 2 scumgroups, plus the worship mechanic makes that less good.

Preview edit: This matches SK's pretty closely; is a coincidence.

[Iecerint]

EBWOP: "That" = only having one scumteam.

[Iecerint]

What universe are "the Endless" from?

[Iecerint]

Yes, am reading. So long as we're on the subject -- does this game have a theme *other than* "some mythologies put together"? Cuz that was my understanding, but....

I'm not getting into what happens if I am Delight. Lets just say that if all the endless are town its a pretty sweet ass gig.

If the result is that disproportionately imba, the simpler explanation is that a disproportionate set of your group is scum, if anything. I suppose this may fluctuate depending upon the factors that make the Endless worshipable.

[Iecerint]

I'd also like to point out Plum isn't self voting, remember the vote loop she's voting for Saint Kerrigan.

The rhetoric in her post indicated that she intended it to be like a self-vote.

Then again, Fate's circumstance, etc.

[Iecerint]

Uh, OK, but that has nothing to do with the fact that Plum intended it as a self-vote. Hence, O/R/Whomever's complaint about Plum is valid IMO.

[Iecerint]

@ Zor, I don't see Fate's initial-initial play as gutsy at all. It's defensive and paranoid. His RVS vote is perfunctory (or scummy, but we'll take his universe). His next post, "Parama is scum because he thinks I'm 3rd party," is worse. His FOLLOWING post, "Chrono is scum for voting me," manages to be yet-worse.

His claim to want to worship the Old Gods is an attempt to recontextualize his play as "silly" rather than "scummy"

His lame "your reluctance to share with the town is noted" to someone who didn't want to answer ABR's question is just bullying. I'm not sure about ABR or SK one way or the other, though.

The only gutsy bit IMO is the very recent "I know something you don't" thing about ABR. It does give me pause a little but idk.

[Iecerint]

@ DTM --

1. Of course the first two aren't scumtells; that's why I explicitly indicate that the list indicates "anti-town at best" explanations. I say this in the sentence before the bit you quoted. Nice misrep.

2. "Doesn't know about the vote counts" is OK on page 2 or 3. It starts to look fake when it happens on page 4 and things were figured out on page 2. Also, your example is basically the same as my (1), so your implication that I ignored it or something is another misrep.

3. I know it because it was incredibly obvious upon looking at the VC on the first page. Any idiot reading the thread could figure it out. Niki and I noticed it immediately. That makes me wary of all these "OOPS GUYS" people who come trudging through the door on page 4.

4. I have to explain to you why a bunch of players Voting for people they don't really intend to vote for ("or not") would cause confusion?

5. As for that last part...you do understand that SX's ability mismatches vote targets with who gets the votes...right? Or is that suspicious for some other reason?

Also was your note information mod-derived?

[Iecerint]

If you are calling Fate scummah, the correct way is to link that ABR comment like ABR himself and call him out on buddahing! You are a lazy ass right now.

I love ABR with about half of my heart. The other half is gone because I was scum with him and he threw a fit and replaced out. Then he lost some of his hero appeal. But we won anyway.

tl;dr I empathize with ABR-buddy-ers.

Also, are you just being a PR-enforced jerk with that bit, or what?

[Iecerint]

There's much better ways to call Fate scum than using his random vote.

I am seething. I hope you understand that.

Also, way to characterize 3 consecutive votes in separate posts secondary to pressure as your "random vote." I find that very plausible. [/sarcasm]

DTM (and others) are either reading those circumstances as WAAAY more town than is default, or...well, that's exactly what they're doing IMO. <_<

I still need a few more players to post so I can figure a certain thing out.

SX, are you saying that Great Old Ones == "Endless," or that "Great Old Ones" means like "hodgepodge including Lovecraftian things + Endless."

[Iecerint]

Oh, I see what you meant, Plum. I didn't notice that SK was 2 below you on the votelist, so I thought you were like "typical random vote...no wait, I'll vote myself because I hate my role."

Not to beat a dead horse, but please indicate explicitly that your Percy vote is a raj vote (etc.) in the future. Make it easy for isoers in a few months.

[Iecerint]

@ DTM

1. Fate was pretty par-for-the-course in the only game I've played with him. But I'll keep that in mind.

I dunno what you mean by "just calling him names." If anyone is guilty of style-over-substance, it's you (cf. that whole set of paragraphs, with your very cute erectile dysfunction extended metaphor).

2. Incidentally, I have found scum during RVS twice. But somehow we lost overall both times. Go figure.

Also, the post didn't look like RVS to me. It looked like a botched attempt to look ignorant of the vote mechanism. BUT even if you don't take that, claiming that his next two votes were someone *also* RVS is totally O.o IMO.

(Also, it was page 4 IIRC, so I dunno what's up with that page 2 business.)

3. OK, so this is how this went:

Iec: God, at this point it's just scummy to pretend you don't know what's going on. Get with the program, people.
DTM: OMG HOW U NO THAT IS CUZ YR SKUM RITE?
Iec: Um, no. I used a technique called "reading."
DTM: OH WELL I DIDN'T READ PAGE 1. SO THERE. YOUR ARGUMENT IS INVALIDATED.

If you refer to my original list, this would put you in category (1) at best.

4. My 1-4 list wasn't describing Fate's situation per se. It was describing reasons why players in general might keep "messing up" as late as page 4. And again, I'll keep the meta angle in mind, but it's not like that was even his first vote.

5. k

6. Why are you being such a bitch? You could've gotten information from another player, for example.

I kinda ignored raj's post tbh. This is fast fast fast and you are keeping me from studying cardiac physiology. I'll go back and look.

[Iecerint]

@ Percy --

Game where I yelled at a player for rolefishing early D1, no one listened to me, and he was scum who won lylo. Said player is tjoe. Not that I played overly well in that game as a whole, but it sticks in my mind. <_<

I think there was also some rolefishing by scum in the first bit of Kingdom Hearts, but I replaced in after it, so I only kinda skimmed that bit. It's the area around Discode's claim early on.

[Iecerint]

2b. I guess so, but it personally occurred to me so quickly that I didn't think much of it.

3. I AM GETTING TO IT. Actually I tried for a moment and I was like GOD CANNOT HANDLE THIS SENTENCE STRUCTURE so I stopped. But I'll do it whenever there is a lull.

4a. When I saw Fate do what he did (as I interpreted it, I mean -- pretend to not know what was going on), I made a list of other reasons why he might have been confused about voting on page 4. "Scum promoting confusion" (e.g. making an environment with lots of YOU DO THIS/GOD YOU ARE SO DUMB DO THIS-type content instead of scumhunting) was on the list. My main argument was that Fate was a type (3) player (faking lack of knowledge to look town, but going too far), or an anti-town one.

For the record, that's also how I see Els's request that we share who we intend to worship, ESPECIALLY considering that he first wanted us all to vote on whether we should share said information first. Huge timesuck.

ABR is different maybe because he is apparently either God or Satan or whatever.

4b. Nah, I'm totally a wimp. Or that's how I perceive myself. The only time I do much is when I manage to confirm myself, which is curiously frequent.

Hey SX, could you ask whether your ability applies to votes *and* lynches? Like, will the player 2 slows below the lynched player (4 slots below the player we all vote for) be the one who dies? This approaches bastard mod territory, but I wanna get that out there.

[Iecerint]

EBWOP: Uh, also, SX did the vote thing, anyway. And he seems like a sweetheart but ye know.

[Iecerint]

Hey, raj asked me a question a long time ago! Who knew?

[D]o you have a problem with random voting[,] Iecerint?

It depends on what you mean by "random voting."

1. I endorse soon-as-possible (or sooner!), RVS-stage analysis. So, I endorse what people are saying I ("wrongly") did to Fate, even though I'm not convinced I did it at all this time.

2. I endorse voting in your first post, and I endorse keeping a vote down at all times thereafter barring extreme circumstances.

3. However, I do not like /random'd RVS votes, or for players to somehow claim that their RVS votes shouldn't be analyzed because they are "random." That is sort of not the point of RVS. so that is why this DTM business with Fate RVS being off the table rubs me the wrong way. But if you are a badmeta player and cannot be helped (as Fate apparently is, contrary to my experience), that is something else.

~~~~~~~~

Anyway, back @ DTM

I do not understand the point of his big post. I read it 3 times, and it seems pretty vacuous. I'm not writing this with your big commentary up, but. Well. I don't see much there one way or the other. He's mostly complaining about playstyle.

I do agree with Percy's point that his first two posts don't make sense. For one thing, if you think someone is scummy, it's better to target them than the (perceived) VI. So post 1 is kinda meh maybe anyway, at least as per his interpretation. But then he admits to being a category (1) player, which contradicts with that.

Then he comes back at the end and does an OMGUS (in a voteless "oh that was so mean man cut a bro some slack" sense) at Percy's IMO legitimate argument and totally exaggerates the extent of the pressure on him.

So I agree with Percy, basically.

[Iecerint]

DTM, you're going to have to EBWOP that for me one more time. I have no idea what you're talking about.

I'm reconsidering on Fate slightly because of the new meta information. If that makes me a woman, at least I'll be able to enjoy something new.

[Iecerint]

I usually use more smileys, I guess. And I'm usually more lighthearted. I'm mad at myself because I still have an hour of cardiac physiology lecture to listen to and I have an exam Tuesday that I haven't done anything for and I am in a gillion games and post-game dead rooms, so I have spent literally all day at the computer, except for classes and such.

Moar razz from here on out, though.

[Iecerint]

In order of your absolutely hideous quote boxes:

1. You are reading my post wrong. It does not make sense for all 4 of those assertions to be true at the same time. I don't even know how you could come to that conclusion. Rather, there are 4 mutually exclusive explanations (well, mostly mutually exclusive; that's how I meant them, anyway), I favor a scummy one and vote Fate. (I also have a weak secret scumtell on Fate, but that's neither here nor there.)

AND YES, YOU CONTINUOUSLY GAVE FATE A PASS BECAUSE HIS FIRST THREE VOTES WERE JUST RVS-GRADE STUFF. FACTFACTFACT.

2. No, I'm attacking Fate for *pretending* not to know about the vote mechanic, because by that point it was IMPOSSIBLE for any reasonable person not to have figured it out. I got it on page 1; how special ed can people be, etc.

3. Uh, I said raj was scummy for the same reason, so I dunno what your point is. I missed it because I didn't read his posts because they are poorly-spelt and punctuated and I was too busy continuously writing you love letters to bother with them.

4.

OK, so, I started responding to DTM's post, but it's such a load of crap that I really can't be bothered. He's spewing mass BS, there are internal contradictions everywhere, etc. If someone else sees something he says that is worth responding to, I'll do it, but I don't really see anything new, and I am tired and frustrated of having wasted the past several hours of my life.

Since all the cool kids are already saying it, I intend to worship the

Norse Gods

.

[Iecerint]

I think SX's information on Mina is mostly innocuous, but the catch on Mina speculating that scum might be able to recruit from the replacements list is indeed WAY specific. Will sleep on it.

So long as some players have said SX is scum, I think he's town.

[Iecerint]

That was a simulpost. I, uh. Didn't see your question. Honest. O_O

To be a little more specific, I had my doubts about you earlier on during the ABR bit IIRC, but. They have lessened considerably.

Why'd'ye ask me specifically, SX?

Reflecting a little more on Minatell, I think it's only plausibly scummy if that were an actual mechanic. Which I mean. It is sort of mean for all the recruited players to be confirmed scum, but. Hmm. I suppose a scumMina flip would give us scumO scumDTM, potentially, but it seems like a kinda mean mechanic for Kinetic to use.

[Iecerint]

I appear to be tunneling on Fate because I have to attend to your posts to such an absurd degree that I cannot bother to invest time in figuring out anyone else. It took me like 3 posts to get around to READING raj because I kept responding to things, I was so stuck in answering your series of (largely prior addressed) questions.

SX, what's the dissonance?

[Iecerint]

basically i've played with him as town and read games where he was town (kh for one) and he's usually pretty obv town. Conversely in the games I've played where he's scum an ongoing and opensource I've felt he was off but was never able to put it into words there either. He seems more like the latter here, I guess it's gut/meta knowing how he plays.

1. You were in Kingdom Hearts?
2. My play in Kingdom Hearts was not typical IMO. That was my "I'm confirmed town, so I'll just play Watson to DGB's Sherlock Holmes and no one will care." I recently did the same thing to ooba's Sherlock Holmes in Greek Mythology. I did play sorta like that in Twilight, too, though, largely because everyone was nice to me even though I replaced total lurker xofelf and claimed VT.
3. You were actually bff with me in OS. That's why I tried to save you from getting lynched D1.
4. No comment on the ongoing.

Just sayin.

[Iecerint]

Uh, I've never heard the term "cognitive dissonance" outside of psychology, so you'll have to say what the tell even means in MS. My guess is that it would mean something like Fairy Godfather, where someone totally makes up bizarre, weird stuff just to fit their contrived version of the game mechanics to make themselves not auto-scum, but I don't see evidence of that.

[Iecerint]

(And didn't someone just call you scummy a bit ago? Maybe I made it up; can't find it now. The reason I put that out there was that I don't like advertising town reads for their own sake because it signals good players to kill. Irrelevant concern if some players clearly think the player is suspicious.)

[Iecerint]

Oh. That's actually called hypocrisy, isn't it? w/e

Regarding Els's plan, it goes like this:

Els: I think we should all sit and discuss whether or not we should claim worship targets. Don't claim the actual targets yet.
Iec: I'm not sure that gives us much alignment information unless the game is set-up in a pretty bizarre fashion. I'm kinda skeptical.
Player X: NORSE!
Player Y: EGYPT!
Player Z: NORSE!
Player AA: OLD GODS LULZ
Iec: Uh. Fine. I'm worshiping the Norse Gods.

The Old Gods avoidance thing was just based on flavor -- there are no a priori "town" Old Gods whatsoever. I explicitly said that it was just a flavor thing at the time IIRC.

For the other, my worry was (similarly) that it would sidetrack more legitimate discussion. But then it seemed like protesting would do just as much, anyway, given ABR's reputation, so I played along. Plus, I kinda like doing what he tells me to do. ^^

NB: There was also one other reason for my skepticism, but I don't want to claim it outright at this time. Still thinking about it.

[Iecerint]

Iec's "Norse gods cuz cool kids are doing it" then mentioning later "I LIKE FOLLOW U ABR!" makes me *headscratch* as to why he didn't say "Idunno I'll just wait for ABR on the whole worship thing."

You have it backward. I said Norse gods long long after the ABR talk had resolved. And I never said I'd follow him, anyway; I said I wasn't sure about that. My lingering crush on ABR is a separate issue.

I've played a game with Iecerint-scum, and he did a great job of looking active and protown, but was a bit overly technical and cautious about joining bandwagons. I'm getting the same impression here.

Were you in OS? Fair characterization if so, I guess; I could see you coming to that conclusion.

I find Iecerint's play different from both the most recent scum and town game I've played with him. Iece, are you a third party role here?

Nope, I'm ordinary town (i.e. no fancy wincon) AFAIK. My guess is that my D1 play in Greek Mythology was kinda skewed because of being a Mason.

That said, I might point out that what happened with Iec->Fate->DTM here is kinda like the Iec->SD->Jack D1 in that game, in the sense that they're both me being harangued and answering the same 2-3 questions over and over (minus the Freudian excuse; this is not a crumb.). Same conclusion, too, come to think of it.

Vote: Iecerint

Is this me or DTM? Cuz you don't say and we're both not entirely context-free targets. Also, did you do that (i.e. fail to clarify) just to annoy me, or are you pretending not to know what's going on, too?

It also occurred to me that both the Mafia and Town might get a recruit, so the replacements could be 1 town v. 1 Mafia.

Then why didn't you say so? That aside, I think it's unlikely. The only balanced way to do it would be to have the Men do it, and that would make him confirmed to too many players.

My guess before DTM claimed being recruited was that Kinetic had noticed a flaw in the ruleset and was rebalancing to compensate. But with DTM's explanation, that doesn't seem plausible.

Icerint: His attack on mina feels forced. I don't really see much weight in his accusations.

Uh, you mean the one where she asks about O and DTM's roles, then criticized cautioned someone else for making a plan that might lead to rolefishing? Like, from ages ago? Or are you confusing my attack on Mina with someone else's?

More later. I'm still on page 11, but I need to pick up my car.

[Iecerint]

Oh, you're right @ Niki; my mistake. It was actually Mina. Reposting, cuz it changes my commentary a little:

I've played a game with Iecerint-scum [Fables], and he did a great job of looking active and protown, but was a bit overly technical and cautious about joining bandwagons. I'm getting the same impression here.

I think drawing the latter conclusion from Fables (rather than OS) is kinda a stretch. Namely, I don't know at all where the bandwagon thing comes from (unless she's misinterpreting that early-game I voted my scumbuddy and didn't want to vote the scummy townie until I'd finished distancing), and I don't get where I'm reluctant to join bandwagons this game, either.

Finally, succintness is pro-town. Quote walls are depressing.

Is this directed at my 285, or at MO? Or are you just making a general observation?

No further comments, it turns out.

[Iecerint]

I just read through my iso to doublecheck on some of the things people are attributing to me, cuz they didn't all sound familiar. FACT CHECK, all quotes are me:

That said, yeah, I feel for any hypothetical town Old Gods out there.

Dunno what to do with the Worship mechanic. I'd say the Old Ones are a priori scummy, or at least 3rd party, based on flavor, but, from a mechanics perspectives, all the groups are probably mostly equally scummy in the short term.

These are the bits where I alluded to Old Gods. I think SX may have implied that I was more vs. than I actually was. Relevant because he implied as much after I called him town.

Up to a point, it is reasonable to be confused, but after that point, your behavior is

anti-town at best, either

because:

1. You are not reading.
2. You have poor reading comprehension.
3. You are scum overestimating how long it reasonably takes town to figure shit out and are consequently overshooting.
4. You are scum trying to bring confusion.

Bold added. This is the quote in which DTM keeps claiming I'm necessarily attributing ALL of these characteristics to Fate, which is clearly not true via the bolded bit. (He also implied that I was arguing that these are all scummy per se, but he dropped that one pretty quickly, and it similarly is clearly not true.) Relevant because DTM dropped the bolded bit when he quoted this. I've already pointed out as much, but in the probable event that people can't be bothered to read us side-by-side, etc.

EBWOP: Uh, also, SX did the vote thing, anyway. And he seems like a sweetheart but ye know.

This was after DTM posted some rhetoric assuming that the vote-shift came from scum. So with context I'd already made my view of SX kinda clear. Relevant because it might imply that his question was mostly rhetorical in function, but I guess the post was slightly vague if you weren't paying attention to context.

(But the point that SX revealing the details of the mechanic was pro-town (as it let's town target appropriately, whereas scumSX would mean that scum could already target appropriately) overrules those bits IMO.)

[Iecerint]

@ Mod

, I think you missed ABR's vote for me/DTM (whichever he intended).

[Iecerint]

I, uh, never claimed that, but I guess you're talking about my worship target? By "all the cool kids are doing it," I meant that so long as so many other worship targets are out there, we may as well have them all on the table.

Hmm. So I guess you're saying you're also delirium-immune? Like you're just way above all these fancy vote mechanics?

[Iecerint]

I mean, if you wanted to vote me, you would vote raj. But you didn't. And you don't appear to be braindead. So that you wanted to vote me implies that you think that you're delirium-immune, unless I'm missing something or your vote for me was purely rhetoric or whatever.

Did you miss all the players who claimed their worship targets earlier? Refer to my recent post for a condensed summary of the issue.

[Iecerint]

I mean, if you wanted to vote me, you would vote raj. But you didn't. And you don't appear to be braindead. So that you wanted to vote me implies that you think that you're delirium-immune, unless I'm missing something or your vote for me was purely rhetoric or whatever.

Did you miss all the players who claimed their worship targets earlier? Refer to my recent post for a condensed summary of the issue.

Preview edit: God, this has taken like 30 minutes to post. Hope there's no double...

[Iecerint]

I have lost enthusiasm for my Fate wagon.

Unvote; Vote: Kairyuu

(This is CryMeARiver, hereafter CMAR.)

I noticed what ooba has noticed twice, too. In my old games with CMAR (Kingdom Hearts and Greek Mythology), his tone is like extremely earnest and eager to please. This game isn't like that. I think he may be affecting the posting style of one of the players who won in that game (Andrius).

[Iecerint]

I don't understand. Is your point that the Norse Gods are winning, so I should (assuming balanced godsets to start) worship someone else to achieve balance as a rational actor or something?

(Also, why would you anticipate a "domino effect"? If anything, players would probably balance worship targets as described above IMO.)

If it makes you feel any better, I have principled reasons for my worship choice, and they have relatively little to do with my hypothetical mortality or faction. No, I will not share those reasons at this time.

[Iecerint]

Voting you serves no purpose at present. So I stopped.

CMAR is someone I noticed early on. Voting him has a purpose.

[Iecerint]

You are highly active, most players have gone on record with an opinion on you, and I would not be satisfied with ending the day lynching you at this point.

[Iecerint]

The site got fast. ^^

[Iecerint]

Al, don't you sort of want to know who's in each group to an extent, because you're a person who says he intends to direct the Worship?

Incidentally, if you think it's bad to let people know who's in which faction, why did you lampshade a perceived "Norse God crumb" on my part?

Scum probably have a good idea of who's in each faction, anyway, come to think of it, though if there are 2 scum teams they might not individually know ALL the faction members.

Anyway, whine to Elscouta if you don't like it. It was his idea.

[Iecerint]

You have no QT with me, unless you are a pterodactyl.

I think MO is town. You'll have to teach me about it.

[Iecerint]

Btw, MO wagon is a good one. I have heard they will give cookies to everyone on it.

Thank you Parama for this great contribution. If you ever stop [posting] one-liners, maybe you could explain yourself.

Teach me why MO is scum, please. I do not follow and have not, really.

[Iecerint]

Hey Iec I'll read that game on Greek Mythology later it serves a double meta'ing purpose so it's all good., I read/reviewed KH set-up so read along.

KK. Read the last day along with the Dead Can Talk thread if you want (I just posted it) maximal hilarity.

[Iecerint]

and also a very premature calling out of ABR as town.

ABR can lead the town.

For 7-11 level convience.

WUT WAS DAT U SED BOUT DISONANCY SPY MAH BOI?

O should respond please.

[Iecerint]

Hey Iec I'll read that game on Greek Mythology later it serves a double meta'ing purpose so it's all good., I read/reviewed KH set-up so read along.

KK. Read the last day along with the Dead Can Talk thread if you want (I just posted it) maximal hilarity.

Oh, in the event that you go the iso route, CMAR eventually hydras with Alma. Alma lurked for ages, then was replaced on the same day that he responded. So yeah. Hydra is DataStrokers or something.

[Iecerint]

^ His case on me is because of his heart, is what he said. He claims he intends to read a 52 page game to check whether his heart has been misplaced.

Mr. Faraday, please keep off the hydra for the benefit of 3 months from now.

[Iecerint]

Attention players. It has come to my attention that Parama is scum. Please lynch this player in a few days. Maybe day four.
Yeah, day four should work. If I'm dead by day four, please lynch Parama without me. Otherwise, I'm going straight for Parama's throat come daybreak on that day.

So, I was thinking about reasons for town to make a post like this, and I can't think of any, and you're not quite wacky enough to get away with it. Give me an idea of what you're talking about. Role-based? Player information-based? Gut? Secret scumtell?

[Iecerint]

(Not sure what Iec's theory on why they'd be scum is--scum wouldn't lampshade the fact that the replacements are Mafia recruits...unless it was all elaborate WIFOM.)

Scum sometimes have a hard time following town set-up speculation because they already know the set-up. As a side-effect of that, they sometimes let slip oddly detailed (and accurate) set-up aspects. Other times they do this on purpose, to pull "I told you so" later on.

SX's catch that you thought scum could recruit from the replacements pool fits that kind of thing IMO. So, you being scum would imply that the mechanic exists in the game, and that DTM and O (or at least one of them) are scum who were so recruited.

I can't really see scum positing something that specific unless they recruited one of the two.

[Iecerint]

I'm asking about the worship vote (whomever that was who said that is probably town fyi).

What are you asking about it?

And Els is the one who recommended it, for the 5th time in 3 pages or so.

[Iecerint]

Oh, OK. @ the Mod, then.

Why does that make Els town? And I'd advise you read the post itself before you answer.

[Iecerint]

OH I SEE WHAT YOU MEAN.

Did someone ask you whether your ability affect the worship target? Then I totally missed that.

I thought you were asking us who originally asked town to claim worship targets.

[Iecerint]

@SpyreX: When you say ANY targeting ability, does that include worship targets? If so we don't want to be worshipping the great old ones, yes?

It was dramonic, way back on page 11. Dunno what's up with the comment about the GOOs, though.

[Iecerint]

Just so everyone knows this, there is nothing in the first part of DTM's post directed toward me that I have not already addressed AFAIK. So. I will not address it unless someone specifically wants me to. As for the later bits:

DTM, I don't dispute your view of Mina's post 355 and don't really know why you're @ing me.

Ortolan has misrepresented Fate's case against him. It has relatively little to do with his lurking and more to do with his behavior toward ABR. Do not like.

Unless I'm mistaken, no one could worship at all last night. So players who think they "can't worship at all" may've just misunderstood mod correspondence.

I'm a little skeptical of Tar's claim. I've seen him talk about claiming BP D1 elsewhere, but hmm. Anyway, a lower-priority concern for right now.

ABR, the VC clearly indicates that you are not immune to delirium. At that point, only Faraday is voting n-2 to give me 1 vote, whereas MO and you are voting me to give DTM 2 votes. I don't understand why you think otherwise. Also:

He's probably Norse and was trying to either get support for Norse or trying to make people follow his lead and reveal what faction they are from. I don't like that at all.

This makes no sense AT ALL. AGAIN. First, I was one of the players opposed to Els's plan to start with. If you want to attack players for trying to reveal factions, then Els or those who quickly followed his Plan (Plum was 2nd, Fate was 3rd off the top of my head; and no, I'm not really convinced it would be a good scumtell, anyway) are the ones you need to attack. Not to mention that you'd need to explain why this is scummy.

Also, you ignored my questions to you on this very topic. Please address them:

Al, don't you sort of want to know who's in each group to an extent, because you're a person who says he intends to direct the Worship?

Incidentally, if you think it's bad to let people know who's in which faction, why did you lampshade a perceived "Norse God crumb" on my part?

[Iecerint]

The answer is no. I don't understand the second question.

OK, so.

1. ABR thinks Iec is trying to get people to worship the Norse Gods (using his clever strategy of not wanting anyone to claim worship targets, but w/e).
2. ABR thinks Iec is bad for doing so.
3. ABR thinks it's bad in part because it could reveal players' factions,
4. Which implies that ABR thinks revealing players' factions is a bad thing.
5. But when ABR thought he saw a NG breadcrumb from Iec, he announced it to the class! Huh! I wonder why he did that!

The second question is to indicate why this isn't an example of SX's definition of cognitive dissonance.

[Iecerint]

Yeah, my attitude toward the Mina->Iec debate was that I was just demonstrating my perspective on DTM/O given scumM (since she said she didn't understand it). I see where her perspective comes from, too, though.

[Iecerint]

If one person is so clumsy as to inadvertently point to his faction by proclaiming who he wants to worship, then that is less bad than everyone revealing their faction.

OK, then, why are you so excited about me? Why not attack any of the other players who have claimed worship targets? Why not target Els way way back when he brought up the idea? Why not target Els now for being the cause of everything.

Your fixation on me makes no sense.

[Iecerint]

EBWOP: ?*

[Iecerint]

OK, then, what are the actual scummy things about me? Because the things you've listed so far are both not very scummy and apply more to other players IMO.

[Iecerint]

I love having iecerint in games because he's a favorite mislynch target for scum. Observing how people react to him is often informative. Seeing if this wagon picks up speed could be very instructive. Oops did I say that out loud?

he is? welp I definitely wouldn't consider his play anything of the sort.

Yeah, my play in my games with her is pretty different from my games with you. Refer to D1 of Percy's StarsAligned II for what she's talking about. In short, lots of people started voting me because I was posting too much (no joke! they said i was trying to keep the game going fast so that "town" couldn't keep up or something like that) and because they had a "bad feeling" about me and all that jazz. She and I both died D1. I also got in trouble for posting too much (and with WAY more volume) in my first Newbie game on the site, which was my other game with (well, she replaced into Twilight and then I accidentally killed her, but that sort of doesn't count).

@ DS, I think you didn't read my early game carefully enough. At that point, I had already voted Mina and then unvoted her (in order to vote Fate after his absurd escapades -- and you appear to agree that Fate was scummy). The reason for the "looks OK to me for now" phrase is that someone had explicitly asked why I unvoted Mina after doing as much to vote Fate.

Point being that your interpretation that I'm distancing without voting doesn't hold up. Not that I couldn't still be distancing in principle, I guess, but you're nonetheless missing some relevant content.

He seems reserved at scum hunting to a point he directs others towards scumy players instead of acting on them himself like town should

Assuming that I'm parsing that monstrosity properly, you're arguing that I'm not scumhunting? Are you serious? I've pursued cases to varying degrees on Mina, Fate, DTM, CMAR, and ABR throughout the day. I've made my suspects abundantly clear. I would challenge you to find another player in the game who has scumhunted to a comparable extent.

Then again. Uh. It looks like you're only 1/4 of the way through the game. So yeah. At least you're advertising your reads as you go.

[Iecerint]

V/LA through Tuesday. Visiting family, and then I have a big exam Tuesday morning. I'm an addict, so you will probably not notice a difference in my activity, but just so ye know.

[Iecerint]

As I read it, it looks like he always knew it was based on voting (probably because the effect was obvious), but wanted confirmation on what other kinds of things it affected. So I think you have it backward. And I'd probably get confirmation on what "actions" meant.

Granted, I probably would've gotten said confirmation before the game started.

[Iecerint]

Set-up speculation:

Universe A: ABR is 3rd party. Fate isn't. There is 1 other 3rd party player. I've narrowed him down to about 4 possibilities within a reasonable doubt.

Universe B: ABR is a leader of a scum faction. Fate isn't. Another player is also a leader of a scum faction; I've narrowed him down to 4 possibilities within a reasonable doubt. This would be similar to the set-up Kinetic used in Wheel of Time mafia.

I originally thought we were in Universe B, but I'm now leaning toward Universe A for various reasons.

And since some people have been making arguments based on the assumption of its absence:

scum can most likely daytalk.

I believe this because I have a QT that remains open during the day. I toyed with the possibility that scum have no daytalk and have to use various QTs to communicate with one another in the presence of town, but there's no evidence of that in my QT, so I think it's unlikely.

[Iecerint]

Iecerint, please explain the 'You have no QT with me, unless you are a pterodactyl" post.

Does the above do it for you? I want to hold off on further explication at this time.

[Iecerint]

Fate is unlikely to be 3rd party unless ABR and Mystery Man are scumlords. I guess they could ALL be 3rd party, but, if so, Fate is a relatively conventional 3rd party (say, investi-proof SK) whereas ABR and Mystery Man are really fancy ones.

And Nika and Fate and ABR and Mystery Man all being 3rd party is just too improbable to deal with.

[Iecerint]

Yep. The QT stays open all day. I've been posting it in tons. I guess it could be that I am a special snowflake with a special QT, but I doubt it. For one, I think Kinetic may like daytalk; WoT mafia (which was Nightless, but ye know) had it.

In addition to alerting town players without QTs that scum have daytalk, the other reason I claimed it is that my QT is very lonely. I'm wondering whether my QTfriend(s) even noticed that it stays open. <_<

[Iecerint]

SX, I think it's relevant information because several players have kinda jumped in after a certain player's post and been like O LOOK THIS IS A HIGHLY PRO-TOWN POSTING FORMAT. I think DTM about Mina's one (v good) post comes to mind. Which is doubleplus relevant because of Mina's "mafia recruit from replacements list" speculation. (I think Mina is leaning a bit town atm, but this kind of information kind of tempers the extent to which she is obvtown.)

Also, Mina, I think you said you were going to make a big, pretty post about me. Please deliver.

So, there's that. I think I may have crumbed this earlier if you ctrl+f "grain of salt;" I was on the fence about whether to crumb it.

[Iecerint]

Fate is just a special little fruitcake.

That is mean.

[Iecerint]

^ I'm not even pushing a case on Mina. Are you talking about like way back on page 3?

[Iecerint]

Hey Plum -- what do you think about CMAR?

[Iecerint]

I dislike this implicit "let's end the day" push from a handful of players.

And the point of the day isn't the play worship. It's to find scum.

[Iecerint]

Nah, you're being implicit about it. "More forward" doesn't outright say it. Same with whoever said it on the last page.

I think CMAR is scum. Waiting for Plum to weigh-in, because she has the same experience with him as ooba and I do, but hasn't commented yet.

I think the case on Ortolan makes sense, even if I want a lot more content from him before I'd considering moving on it unless I had nothing else going on.

I would not cry in my sleep if Fate died.

I think ABR is likely to be non-town, but I'm not sure what kind of role he has. There are better lynches, but I do not trust him.

[Iecerint]

I didn't look back at Fate's. If that's how he put it, then his was explicit. Yours wasn't. I will argue with you if you make it an issue, and you had made it an issue.

So, in a sense, yeah -- I argue for the sake of arguing lots, especially if people say things that are purely rhetorical ("don't be coy") AND they don't make sense ("'move forward' 100% means 'lynch'").

Ya, outright lynching a player who has posted 3 times is a little silly. Wanting him to post more before lynching him is a good idea regardless of your lynchee's alignment. And he should want to oblige if he's town, anyway.

There are players in this game who have only posted once. It is nowhere near time to end the day.

[Iecerint]

I misremembered Fate's. I thought you were both vague. I think my last post makes that clear.

You could have meant "evaluate ABR's plan" or "use that information to narrow suspicions depending upon what it looks like."

If I had said "explicit" upfront, something tells me that there is a 110% chance that we would instead be having this discussion about me putting words in your mouth.

If you want to lynch me for bad reasons, you are either scum or not playing very well.

[Iecerint]

You are normally a ball of love. Today you are not a ball of love. You are capricious, and you are not even playing consistently with the rules you say you use to judge others. I think your play has been scummy.

However, I am forced to reconcile that with your letting us know how to manage our night actions due to your ability, which gave you gillions of town points.

That summarizes my ambivalence.

[Iecerint]

Yo, SX, who'd'ya mean specifically by "the great protectorate"? MO? Me? Who?

[Iecerint]

The thing that's sticking out from my perspective is that I think ABR has IMO violated your "cognitive dissonance" tell multiple times, but you haven't even commented on it if I'm not mistaken. Which would appear to itself be a form of cognitive dissonance on your part.

I have a hypothesis to explain your behavior re: ABR without you being scum, but I'm waiting a few days for the next infodump. I'm still thinking about whether it's worth it. Said hypothesis also predicts what ABR's plan is going to be, since it's nearly the only way a D1 player with his implied ability set could have a nonarbitrary bias in favor of specifically 2 god-factions.

Your townlist is pretty nearly my scumlist. Mina had a scummy start, but I think her recent posts have been pretty great. It's possible that that is daytalk-driven, though, depending on who the scum are. (I'm not sure what to make of her response to my "daytalk" revelation; has she never heard of daytalk before?) Still, wouldn't want to lynch her at this point. I really want to see the post on me that was coming up ages ago.

As my comment about my QT indicates, I share your annoyance with certain players.

[Iecerint]

Here's a series of quotes with summaries that give you the relevant narrative:

OK, so.

1. ABR thinks Iec is trying to get people to worship the Norse Gods (using [Iec's] clever strategy of not wanting anyone to claim worship targets, but w/e).
2. ABR thinks Iec is bad for doing so.
3. ABR thinks it's bad in part because it could reveal players' factions,
4. Which implies that ABR thinks revealing players' factions is a bad thing.
5. But when ABR thought he saw a Norse God breadcrumb from Iec, he announced it to the class! Huh! I wonder why he did that!

The second question [in context, the point of me bringing this up] is to [ask ABR to] indicate why this isn't an example of SX's definition of cognitive dissonance.

ABR says I'm scummy for trying to expose god factions, then he tries to expose my faction. First instance of CD.

I think everyone revealing their faction would be bad, yes.

If one person is so clumsy as to inadvertently point to his faction by proclaiming who he wants to worship, then that is less bad than everyone revealing their faction.

The answer makes no sense because when I announced my intended worship target we'd already reached the point where several players had claimed worship targets; proclaiming who you want to worship does not indicate your faction or whether you have a faction.

OK, then, why are you so excited about me? Why not attack any of the other players who have claimed worship targets? Why not target Els way way back when he brought up the idea? Why not target Els now for being the cause of everything?

Your fixation on me makes no sense.

ABR says that I'm scummy for wanting to use worship targets to expose god factions (he said I was trying to create a "domino effect"), but he's attacking me, a player who was at first opposed to said system, rather than the player who suggested it or the players who jumped on it immediately. Second instance of CD.

Well I decided to pick you because the others didn't strike me as being as scummy.

This is fine, but he had not substantiated it in any way. So...

OK, then, what are the actual scummy things about me? Because the things you've listed so far are both not very scummy and apply more to other players IMO.

...I asked him to.

But it also applies to you. So you are scummy.

And he can't. This isn't CD, though; it's just hoping that the discussion topic will go away. Which is still scummy for its own reasons.

To be clear, I think ABR is probably 3rd party rather than scum at the moment. But it was weird that this totally blew past you given what you said earlier. I even gave you a shout-out in the first bit there.

[Iecerint]

@ Katy, J-Scope is the same person as Faraday. Faraday's mistakenly posted with a hydra account.

@ ooba, I followed-up on the Mina case the same night that I said that; it's toward the bottom of one of my posts.

Fate wasn't a crazy person in the other game I played with him. I had no other context through which to interpret his behavior. I find it a little odd that you don't see how egregious his quick three votes were outside of a "Fate is VI" framework. Also, Mina had already responded to my concern, so there was no reason to continue voting for her.

I absolutely think that one of O and DTM is scum if Mina is scum. Do you think my reasoning for that is controversial?

I agree with you about Mina never posting about me.

[Iecerint]

@ SX -- How is what I did any different from what any of the other players who had announced worship targets did?

[Iecerint]

I mean, the town motivation is obvious. TOWN DEMAND WORSHIP TARGETS. IEC GIVES HIS.

[Iecerint]

Ugh, site is slow. I think 2 of my posts never got through (like, I hit Preview instead). They were something like:

"SX, how is what I did any different from what those who claimed targets before me (Plum and Chrono and Fate and Percy)? Are ALL of us scummy (except Chrono, I guess) for "revealing" that we're Egyptian or GOO or Norse or whatever?

And the townsense is easy: TOWN DEMANDS WORSHIP TARGETS. IEC DELIVERS."

[Iecerint]

My preference is to hear ABR's two faction targets before the next infodump, but I'll infodump without it if necessary.

I have never claimed that my Norse worship vote is random. I have in fact claimed that I claimed it for specific reasons.

No, wanting to end the day early is scummy (even though I don't think SX is scum).

There is no flip-flop; this has been my position all game.

[Iecerint]

Your "random" (idk about the rest, but my choice was a RVS for the Gods equivalent)....

Why'd you misrepresent your reason as arbitrary rather than random, then?

[Iecerint]

Ohh and for the record: I'm prettyyyy sure I'd qualify as a God. I have no QT.

Hmm? Didn't you earlier speculate that other Endless were in the game?

But I guess that lessens the likelihood of my assumption that scum have daytalk.

[Iecerint]

Added to this is the fact that in my experience Iecerint is not the type of player to pursue elaborate gambits as scum. (Feel free to correct me on this by giving evidence). This behavior from him is almost certainly town in my opinion.

Hmm? What experience is that? Or is this just conjecture?

@ DS, I posted about the Plum issue already; I defended Faraday because I misunderstood Plum's post.

I'm not a player who is likely to stick with a vote on page 3 (or whenever) unless the player has ignored me. Mina went on-record with an explanation quickly, so I got what I needed to know from that, and then a new scummy thing happened, so I went to investigate that instead. If, hypothetically, no one had beaten Mina in scumminess thereafter all day, I'd have come back to her at deadline. Is just how I do.

I wasn't yet satisfied on Fate at the time of the raj business IIRC. So I didn't

Things I Have Requested that need to happen

1. Plum talks about CMAR.
2. Mina posts about me.

[Iecerint]

It may be that I've only played with him as a town replacement, but CMAR has this really earnest, eager-to-please manner that is totally absent from his posts in this game.

In place of that, all he's done all game is random-vote Nikanor, change it to DarkStalkers (that is, "fixing" his random vote) without further explanation, post joke posts, and promise to catch up.

[Iecerint]

I see

people

are paranoid over my statement that I would worship either of two of the four groups based on mythology.

Who? That doesn't sound familiar to me.

[Iecerint]

Also, @ whoever, we worship factions, not players. So if whoever it was sent in worship of a player, they'll just get a wristslap from Kinetic AFAIK.

[Iecerint]

Iec: I did do a cursory comparison of CMAR's play here to

two

other games I've been in with him, both where he flipped Town. I'm not seeing a really notable or noticeable difference, at least on a surface level. What am I supposed to be seeing, anyway

Hey, to be clear, I think you're referring to Kingdom Hearts and Greek Mythology (i.e. the same two I know of CMAR through)?

[Iecerint]

Yeah, he replaced into DeathNote's slot and did pretty much the same post-replacement thing as he did later in Greek Mythology.

Ima glance through BtS, then.

@ Fate, where's that?

[Iecerint]

Uh, you said something about DTM and Niki claiming her worship target or something. I don't see anything new about the Norse worshippers. Make it clearer if you want me to comment on something.

Anyway, I read through CMAR in the relevant game. It's ongoing, so I won't elaborate. Nothing to change my perspective that his play in this game is different in a scummy way, though.

[Iecerint]

You irritate me. I'm not going to repeat myself.

[Iecerint]

1. No, I don't see a point in getting excited about early worship targets. That's part of why I thought Els's plan was pretty dumb to begin with. I think factions are probably pretty balanced with regard to how scummy they are when the game starts. As such, people either give worship votes randomly, do it because their role gives them extra information leading them to believe (myopically, maybe) that a given option is better, or do it because the flavor is interesting. So I don't see much point in getting excited about early worship claims.

2. I'm guessing that you don't know what "hypo" means and instead mean "hyper worshipping"? (Because there's not even an implicit contradiction otherwise?) But apart from that, I don't know what you're talking about.

[Iecerint]

@ ABR, week from deadline would be fine.

[Iecerint]

OK, so, here's

the other infodump

:

Someone posted anonymously in our QT shortly after it opened under the name "Sky." He asked which of the players in the QT had a specific rolename, and he told us that we shouldn't worship ABR. I said we shouldn't give information like that because we weren't certain town, and (because I suspected him specifically for his behavior) asked who he was; he responded by repeating my text back to me. Then Kinetic posted in the QT indicating that we could not post anonymously. He has not returned since then.

(This is the "Mystery Man" I was talking about earlier.)

Because Sky refused to reveal himself and jumped into the QT early with explicit rolefishing and all that, I was suspicious of him; so, based on the times when Sky posted in our QT, I came up with a shortlist of 6 likely suspects using msutils. My random vote (dram) reflects one of the 6 original suspects. I've reduced the list to 4 by now.

OK, fast forward to ABR's dramatic appearance:

Hello SK. I have something for you up there comrade.

Fate, I have an inquiry for you up there as well.

When I saw these crumbs, they reminded me of Sky, but ABR wasn't on my shortlist of Sky suspects. But it looked to me like ABR might be something similar to him because of the "up there" flavor of the crumb. So I added ABR to my list, but mostly wanted to keep watching to evaluate what was going on.

I am deliberating whether I want to stay in the

shadows

this game...

Bold not added, so another crumb from ABR, but this one makes him look like someone different from Sky ("shadow" flavor). Also, Sky's stipulation that we shouldn't worship ABR would work if they knew one another's roles and were opposed in some way.

I tried crumbing back to ABR to see if he was Sky, after all:

Hmm. So I guess you're saying you're also delirium-immune? Like you're just

way above

all these fancy vote mechanics?

Bold added. But he didn't respond, so I stuck with my ABR/Sky dichotomy.

Factor in that ABR has shown (IMO) disproportionate antagonism toward my perceived faction claim, and I came up with the following hypothesis:

ABR and Sky are 3rd party players who are each associated with specific factions. One of ABR's is GOO, one of Sky's is the Norse gods. Their win condition involves their associated faction(s) "beating" the opposing faction(s) in some way (whether by eliminating them, or by getting more worship than them, or some combination).

This is an expanded version of the "Universe A" I mentioned in the last infodump. I think this is more likely than Sky and ABR being opposing scum faction leaders ala WoT because the fact that they appear to know one another's roles would be difficult to balance.

(There's also still one more QT poster who has yet to explicitly deny that s/he was Sky. I think Kinetic wouldn't allow that kind of lie, since anonymous QT posting is apparently illegal for us, and that kind of lie would reinforce the anonymity of the posting. So I'd like for him or her to do as much in the QT ASAP. His or her failure to do as much is already evident to anyone with access to our QT, so it's not as if this is much of an extra risk to him or her. If s/he feels otherwise, s/he should indicate why/that s/he does not intend to do so.)

[Iecerint]

@DS, "by all the cool kids saying it," I mean that "it" is "their worship target." So you should read it as "everyone is claiming their worship target, so here's mine."

I switched away from Fate because SX and others had given information about Fate's meta I hadn't known. I switched to CMAR because I think he is scum based on recent meta. I'm pretty confident in it.

@ Plum, regarding Orto -- for one, I misvigged Orto the last time I played with him (Moviestar Madness N1). So there's that. I would support an O wagon, but I'm pretty sure that CMAR is scum, and nothing has happened to address my concern, so I see little reason to switch cases at this time.

@ ABR -- I thought Sky was a scum player originally, so that's why I've been working on figuring him out. The result of that was the 3rd party theory. It's not that I "hunted" for 3rd parties; I reacted to Sky's scummy play in-QT.

While I don't dispute that Sky is sketchy, I think scum are probably pretty even distributed between factions. So, if you don't just have a wincon-based reason to exclude the Norse gods from your plan (which I think is most plausible), I think you're being myopic. But it probably won't matter for D1, UNLESS --

Does Worship reset each day phase such that whichever faction receives the most worship during the N-1st phase wins worship, or is it that Worship continuously accumulates throughout the game?

If it's the former, outright exclusion in the short term is fine. If it's the latter, we might prefer a plan that allows later flexibility depending upon which faction's scum is caught.

(Preview edit: also, since Sky knew that there was something special about you (at least, he said not to worship you pre-game), I doubt your antipathy toward him is driven purely by personal dislike.)

[Iecerint]

Well, we know now that ABR knows Sky and Sky knows ABR, and that they appear to be opposed. So that all fits with the 3rd party angle.

We also know that ABR crumbed to Fate and SK. So that also fits.

If Sky crumbed in other QTs, that would finish with the parallelism.

[Iecerint]

Iecrint looking for crumbs on D1 is just paranoid/dumb town, so I'll reluctantly have to lean town on him. I still don't like how he thinks DTM and Niks BS was nothing special to comment on.

Why is it dumb?

If, hypothetically, DTM was recruited by exactly one player, that increases the possibility that DTM is town and O is scum given that Mina is scum. But that relies on a lot of assumptions, so I don't get where you're coming from, and I particularly don't understand why you appear to think it means Niki and DTM are scum together.

If you want me to comment on a case, make it clearer to me.

[Iecerint]

Oh. Well. Um. That actually didn't occur to me.

Anyway, Sky seems to know SOMETHING about ABR, and then ABR claimed all this fancy stuff, and then he claimed to know who Sky was, so that's still something.

I got a response from Kinetic; worship votes do NOT accumulate, so there's no risk of making it hard to switch to Norse given a scumNorse flip.

I'm not sure who I'll worship at this time. Will figure it out before long.

[Iecerint]

Huh?

[Iecerint]

Well, I suppose it's nice to know that were making no sense whatsoever, after all.

[Iecerint]

EBWOP: "that

you

were making no sense."

Forgot a word.

[Iecerint]

I love when you color-code your thoughts.

1. That isn't why I voted Fate. I thought he was scummy, even if his behavior could theoretically have an anti-town explanation (much like rolefishing). His play wasn't like this in my other game with him.

2. On the subject of that second post of mine you linked, since you reminded me, my hypothesis was that SX was a GOO to whom ABR had crumbed ahead of time, and he was giving ABR the benefit of the doubt because, let's face it, everyone likes fancy powers. But SX later claimed to be QT-less, so that theory is no longer possible.

3. I chose the Norse gods for a specific reason (it was NOT random), but that reason isn't my faction.

4. For what it's worth, Fables has been my only scum win. Police people always get me.

[Iecerint]

You are a complete moron if that is real. Way to kill Starbuck.

Also, Niki has earned more scum points than I can count on my hands for failing to point this out while encouraging his behavior.

Preview edit: GOO = Great Old One

[Iecerint]

I'm not scum with anyone, silly. Go pretend to shoot CMAR.

Niki keeps his scumpoints, though.

[Iecerint]

Ya. Niki just got lots of -like points.

Preview edit: orly.

[Iecerint]

As much as I'm glad not to be the leading wagon (and wouldn't exactly cry if ort was lynched)...

What do you mean by the parenthesized bit?

Niki seems fairly normal in the games I play with him. There are lots of VIs coming out of the closet this game.

[Iecerint]

(ooba is voting twice in the last VC.)

[Iecerint]

Hmm? What would ooba be framing who for?

[Iecerint]

I thought you were implying that one of us would look bad down the line as an effect of his case (presumably, after the other flipped). Which is sort of inconsistent with both of us being town.

Ooba's switch to voting me when I basically posted an expanded version of his case on CMAR did make me O.o a little. I wasn't expecting it. But on the other hand, I noticed CMAR's play being different before ooba posted about it (even if I didn't post about it until much later), so his original CMAR vote looked like genuine scumhunting to me.

[Iecerint]

@ Alba -- "ABR is probably a 3rd party who is manipulating us to vote against the Norse for his own ends, but it's unlikely to matter in the grand scheme of things" <- minor edit to one of Fate's summary points.

Is the point about not worshiping JC just based on flavor, or is there a particular reason they shouldn't be worshipped?

@ ooba, he could have meant either. My personal guess is that he misunderstood the worship mechanic (just like ABR did; they may have similar PMs) and literally meant we shouldn't worship ABR.

My bad re: your voting. I had erroneously remembered you voted me in the first post, then switched to Mina in the post where you added the Katy parts. Which is part of why I thought it was weird. But it looks like you didn't vote at all in the first post, so there was just the Mina vote.

Your theory that I am in some way Mystery Man/Sky (I think that's your theory?) is very unlikely. First, it would require that I staged a series of exchanges between myself and Sky in QT, which is kinda a stretch. Second, I explicitly stated in QT that I was not Sky, which is against the spirit of Kinetic specifying that we have to identify ourselves if we post in the QT. You also know that at least one player who is neither Sky nor myself has access to the QT, so he/she/they could correct me if I were lying. The only circumstance where they wouldn't would be if they were scum with me, in which case I again wouldn't be 3rd party, etc.

[Iecerint]

I wonder if I should ask ABR to state who Sky is. If he fails to name someone on my list, that would mean he was just bluffing. It may also mean that he had been trying to support the theory that he was 3rd party.

(The algorithm that came up with who was on the list is not very fungible, so you don't have to worry about that.)

[Iecerint]

Weird observation:

<2> Lynch Reveals: When a player is lynched, immediately after the Lynch Count is reached the lynched player will be targeted by a mod-confirmed SANE role cop investigation and a mod-confirmed SANE alignment cop investigation with the results being revealed before the night phase. After the Night Phase the lynched player will be killed and their mod-confirmed true alignment and role name will be revealed during the Daybreak.

But the only claimed miller is Tar, I think? So maybe scum can temporarily GF or frame under certain conditions?

[Iecerint]

What's fail about that?

No, I'm still voting CMAR. If I were to change my vote to someone, it would be O.

[Iecerint]

1. Secret millers in a non-bastard game?
2. Town millers not claiming it D1?
3. I can't really argue with "etc. etc."

O has 3 posts; CMAR has 12 posts. Granted, O does have more actual content in his posts (i.e. O has 2 posts with serious content; CMAR has none unless you count his RVS).

I have no idea what Plum is talking about. I would love for her to be a little more specific.

[Iecerint]

I've already told you that I misvigged O the last time I played with him. Mystery solved.

The conditions that would make me vote O at this point are not "moar content" per se, but rather either a deadline lynch or a satisfactory explanation from CMAR. Owagon is doing just fine without me.

[Iecerint]

CMAR is a peppy schoolboy in every game I have played with him. Refer to Greek Mythology and Kingdom Hearts. I was actually thrilled when he replaced into Greek Mythology, because his tone made me get a town read on a player who had been neutral-to-scummy to me before that.

He's a little different in Plum's ongoing,

but it's ongoing, so I can't elaborate.

Looks like it just finished. In Behind the Scenes, where he plays from the start (more like this game), his posts are pro-town and content-rich, which departs favorably from his play here.

O is scummy, but he has in the past read scummy as town to me (hence the misvigging). So I'm more comfortable with my read on CMAR.

A possible confounding variable with my read on CMAR is that my only personal experience with him is as a replacement, but BtS mafia convinces me that that's not a major concern.

[Iecerint]

Nope, not in either of the two games I've played with him, and not in BtS, either (though I read that knowing his alignment). He's like HEY GUYS WANNA RIDE BIKES!, in the sense that he is extremely earnest. He is not that way here at all.

Confounding variables are that I had an innocent investigation on his slot in Greek Mythology, but he replaced a player so O.o that I nonetheless had bad feelings before CMAR joined.

Do you think my interpretation of ABR and Sky is scummy, or just reaching? Because it sounds like the former, which I need you to explain to me.

[Iecerint]

That is the opposite of an "extremely earnest" post. You're misunderstanding/misrepresenting what I mean by the phrase.

If you are arguing that CMAR posts like that as town in games you've played with him, show me the games.

[Iecerint]

If this kid were smiling broadly -- that's what CMAR is usually like.

[Iecerint]

This game he is more like this.

[Iecerint]

(EBWOP: His last 2-3 posts have reverted more to the former, but since that's after the rhetoric against him had focused on the tone discrepancy, ye know.)

[Iecerint]

He's jokey and capricious, his posts are deliberately content-less, etc. I'll summarize his posts for you:

1. RVS via policy
2. Corrects RVS formatting (adds red color)
3. Misunderstands MO's inb4, jokey post.
4. Another jokey post.
5. Yet another jokey post.
6. Corrects his prior RVS vote after the n+2 rule is established.
7. Jokey post that justifies his RVS vote staying on Niki.
8. Reposts my post, presumably to explain his 6th post. I guess this one is more like nice CMAR.
9. Jokes that everyone who isn't him is scum.
10-13. "I will catch up now."

I looked at both Pick Your Power II and Pick Your Poison II, and CMAR didn't play either of those games AFAICT, so...link, please?

(I'm not saying that he's literally a jester, if that's what you think I'm saying.)

[Iecerint]

See, it looks like you don't disagree with me about that characterization; you just disagree that it's different from his meta in a scummy way. But it's hard for me to take that very seriously when I don't know what's contributing to your perspective.

Speaking of which --

@ Faraday, d'ya ever get through Greek Mythology?

[Iecerint]

He's serious from the get-go in Behind the Scenes. I'll look at PYP3.

I'm not joining Owagon because there is no point in me joining Owagon. It already exists plenty. The point of wagoning CMAR is that it might make him post. At present, I would be happy ultimately lynching either player.

I am amused that you want to lynch me without reading the thread.

[Iecerint]

OK, CMAR is indeed slightly jokier in PYP3, especially at the start, so I can kinda see where Alba is coming from, but he's still the former version of CMAR IMO. There, his jokes (except like posts 1-3) are topical and don't distract from whatever is being discussed. Also, his first serious post is on the first day the thread was open (his 4th one). Doublealso, the vast majority of his posts are pro-town, even if he occasionally makes comments that sort of aren't PC (and gets wagoned for them, from what I can tell -- I just read his iso). Tripleplus, his activity level is very high.

So, I can see where Alba is coming from, but I disagree. (For comparison's sake, I can't see where Plum is coming from at all.)

[Iecerint]

EBWOP: Although, I just realized that all of CMAR's pre-"I will catch up" posts are on the first day the thread was open. So. Hmm.

Well, I'll wait for his comeback post.

[Iecerint]

Yeah. It just didn't click.

I was really proud that ooba pointed out the same thing that I individually noticed ages ago, mk? <_<

[Iecerint]

Does anyone have scumCMAR? Cuz no one has presented that and it would be ++relevant.

Ooba's Victorian Vampire game has an even more schoolboyish version of the CMAR I know and love.

[Iecerint]

3. Actually wouldn't CMAR be scummier then ort by that definition. If Ort has been posting more content, that means he's been scum hunting more.

That whole angle is muddied by the circumstances of when they were posting. It's not a productive thing to worry about tbh.

But what definition were you talking about?

[Iecerint]

1. CMAR has more posts; O has more meaningful posts (that occurred somewhat later on in the game IIRC). I would tend to agree with you that O has posted more content, even though he only has 3 posts and one of them is grandstanding.

2. You have implied that there is an inconsistency here, but I'm not sure I understand...?

[Iecerint]

1. I guess so? (Even if the post-times make that a bad heuristic.)

2. But I'm voting for CMAR and have been for ages? So...I don't understand your point.

[Iecerint]

@ SB, Mina posted about me a few pages ago. It's a huge, color-coded post, so I'm not sure how you missed it unless you missed an entire page or something.

I'll let her answer the other.

[Iecerint]

Going towards scummy fast, because you're trying to use it to justify ABR = Sky = scum, when your whole theory is ridiculous and phony.

Uh, that is not at all my theory. My theory is that ABR is a different person from Sky, and that neither of them are scum. Way to fail at reading comprehension.

I'd say that I don't make crazy shit up as scum, but I did (appear to) do it one time in Disgaea. I thought I was actually correct, though. <_<

@ Alba, why would O flipping town make me more likely scum?

[Iecerint]

EBWOP: And even if that WERE my theory, I don't understand your incredulity.

Do you think ABR is obvtown? Do you think I'm lying about having a QT? Do you think I'm lying about Sky existing, or about details of his behavior?

Or do you think all that was accurate, but I was wrong to worry about Sky in light of his behavior? In which case, why do you think Sky's behavior didn't deserve scrutiny?

[Iecerint]

Nope. That other player from my QT I mentioned still hasn't explicitly denied being Sky, either.

[Iecerint]

What makes you think that? And why are you positing it openly when, to the extent that it is useful to do that, it's better to have ABR give who he implied he knew it was to help confirm him as (probably) innocuous 3rd party?

[Iecerint]

Do you know who Sky is, or were you just using context clues?

[Iecerint]

So:

1. I'm correct about *a* ABR-Sky link.
2. ABR is town.
3. Sky is unconfirmed.
4. Sky suspected ABR pre-game for arbitrary reasons or something.
5. Sky can play in other QTs.
6. Sky refuses to reveal himself even after I ask him nicely and point out that I'm (hypothetically) wasting time and energy on finding him.

^ This is ABRworld?

Preview edit:

13 SaintKerrigan ( 0 ) - Tar
14 Elscouta ( 1 ) - [accounted for via Parama]
15 DarkStalker ( 2 ) - CryMeARiver
16 Snow_Bunny ( 1 ) - Starbuck, ooba
17 Nikanor ( 2 ) -
18 Mina ( 1 ) -

6 votes, 4 players.

[Iecerint]

@Iec, Is Mina usually a cautious or an overzelious player?

False dichotomy, maybe? Or is this what you mean:

In my only other game with her (she was town; I was scum), she was given to wallposts, but not vacuous ones. She was pretty much exactly the way she's been in this game since I changed my opinion on her. So is this "overzealousMina"? Cuz I think that's the townMina I played with before.

Her early game -- considering the rolefish, then not doing it, then saying others shouldn't do a plan due to rolefishing -- was kinda weird to me and more like a hypothetical cautiousMina /=/ townMina from Fables.

So, townMina from Fables was more like the one with the huge wallposts. I've never played with scuMina, but cautiousMina as described above does not feel familiar. Does that answer your question, or did I answer a different question?

Also I'm guessing Iec's experience with orto playing like this before which caused you to misvig him is akin to your views of meta. you have meta reasons for voting cmar and have meta reasons to not be anxious to jump on the orto wagon. Am I right cause that's what i think you meant by post 718?

Yeah, that's one way of putting it.

Also I am surprised Iec has admitted to having a QT

I did it for a couple of reasons:

1. I'd been threatening Sky with coming out with it in-thread with this if he refused to reveal himself. He never showed. So it was going to have to come out eventually. I think/thought that Sky's behavior was scummy enough to justify outing myself as a QT-haver. Also, given the large number of presumed factions in the game (4 god factions + scum + misc), I didn't think having a QT would be particularly earth-shattering information to anyone, anyway.

2. Also, at least one of my (presumed) non-Sky QTfriends hadn't posted in QT since day start. Since Kinetic didn't openly let us know that we had daytalk until day came (he was like BTW THREAD STAYS OPEN LOL), I didn't know if they'd just missed it. I asked Kinetic if I could PM the player to point out daytalk, but was told that was not OK. I thought the same implicit circumstance might apply to Sky. So I thought announcing the daytalk might get Sky to see that he had it and reveal himself in-QT rather than have me do it in-thread AND clue-in my QTfriend. Said QTfriend has since posted in-QT claiming s/he was unaware we had daytalk.

3. I discussed it in-QT before I did anything at all. No one whined.

[Iecerint]

@ SB, Mina posted about me a few pages ago. It's a huge, color-coded post, so I'm not sure how you missed it unless you missed an entire page or something.

I'll let her answer the other.

I'm still behind. Chances are I haven't gotten there yet.

My worship vote is, as I said before, for the Judea-Christian Angels.

This was @ Starbuck. I'll write out her name in the future.

[Iecerint]

Orto, if Fate is right (and he would have no reason to lie), is actively avoiding this game. Cases aside that is a kill offense. Period.

Said the same of CMAR AFAICT. Just sayin.

[Iecerint]

So you're a daykilling survivor now? Neato.

[Iecerint]

Not Voting: 2

Who are these people and why haven't they been shot?

HEY GUYS.

I THINK O IS AT L-2 NOW.

JUST SAYIN.

[Iecerint]

@ Alba -- my point is that I wouldn't want 2 people to rush into town with I HERD YR LYNCHIN O HERE YE GO. So I said that.

Did you ever explain why O-town makes me scum?

[Iecerint]

^ Good point, that. I feel O better now.

WHERE ARE YOU CMAR.

[Iecerint]

MINA is evolving!

[Iecerint]

I think CMAR should post an actual catch-up or decline to do so before we end the day

SX, please ask whether the Mod's "confirmed" information on O will reflect O's status or Starbuck's.

[Iecerint]

I totally don't believe that CMAR is 100% death-proof town. That is too dumb for words. And we already have Tar's NK-proof claim.

Death-proof 3rd party, maybe. But there are too many of those posited already.

On the other hand, I don't really see CMAR as someone who would claim something like that unless it were a joke.

So I agree with an Orto lynch, even though he probably, like me, is just struggling to keep up.

Back on the original hand, this is awful. I doubt he's even reading the thread in more than a ctrl+f "CMAR" fashion.

CMAR, please supply the scumCMAR meta you allude to.

[Iecerint]

Yeah, Parama and Mina beat me to it @ manho. Post makes no sense.

[Iecerint]

Hmm? Did you just hammer?

[Iecerint]

I would have preferred being the test lynch on D1, but it's all fine.

lol

FoS @ players whining about days being long

.

[Iecerint]

1. Long days help town. Short days help scum. (On average.)
2. That rhetoric shortens days.
3. That rhetoric helps scum.

[Iecerint]

I disagree. At worst, if town are lazy rereaders, long days are null. Assuming that everyone is vigilant, they help town.

[Iecerint]

Granted, it's more important to have a larger number of events per day than to have a large number of pages. But the two terms correlate.

[Iecerint]

The thread has been open for just over a week.

[Iecerint]

Bully someone else into it. I have no intention of hammering. I will hammer at deadline, and not before, especially when several players apparently have forthcoming bigposts.

[Iecerint]

EBWOP: And doubleplus especially not without a claim.

[Iecerint]

Uh. Wat.

Preview edit: @ Par.

[Iecerint]

Uh. No. I don't want to end the day yet.

If you've misinterpreted that I'm afraid of O-bomb or something, you are mistaken.

[Iecerint]

Stalling the day out on empty rhetoric shouldn't come from a townie.

In what universe are claims empty rhetoric? Not to mention promised analysis.

[Iecerint]

O will presumably be replaced.

Someone said Mina had an ABR post.

[Iecerint]

1. Would love an explanation for the NL from O's replacement (or anyone).
2. Set was probably EgyptianScum. Given the assumption that the groups were relatively balanced at gameStart, I think everyone should plan to Worship the Egyptians tonight (but they obviously shouldn't send it in now, in case new information comes out).
3. SX was 95% town. As such, given the above assumption, GOO is slightly more scum-saturated than other factions. They should not receive worship today.
4. Waiting for Al.

[Iecerint]

Whoever stole my unkillability from me better fess up

Do you mean this literally or metaphorically?

[Iecerint]

I don't really want to vote him because I don't think that CMAR would claim losing his unlynchability as scum.

I'm inclined to agree with you. Could be that his scum members /slapped him when O appeared to be the same or whatever. Presumes that scum dunno what was up with O either, which ye know.

@ CMAR, Tar has claimed that he wins if he lynches the GF, becomes town if the GF dies some other way, and is killed if the GF is still alive on D3.

[Iecerint]

I've got a 1-shot role cop/sane alignement cop investigation result on Saint Kerrigan that says he was Set (which we can all see) and town (which people seem to be assuming isn't the case.)

Set is the jealous dude who kills and dismembers his brother. Then the brother's son cuts off Set's testicles and all is made well. I guess wikipedia claims that some Egyptians thought he was secretly a sweetheart or something but I mean. Any flavor basis for insanity on your part?

Preview Edit: WAT @ SB.

[Iecerint]

EBWOP: nvm, missed that you specified that the result was Sane.

[Iecerint]

Because I thought the running theory was that the role cop flip was shifted down 2 spaces since Spy claimed that abilities were shifted.

I thought SX said that Kinetic said that that wouldn't happen? But either way, SX's death may have normalized the targets as of D2. The fact that MO's claimed result matches the Mod's direct one is consistent with that.

@ dram, Set and Seth are the same. It's just different romanizations.

[Iecerint]

(Nice to see that you probably like MegaTen, though. :X)

[Iecerint]

Are you in a position to tell us why pro-town targeting you might have messed you up?

I'm assuming that you're saying DTM+Tar leaves 2 neutrals, one of which is in the Cult and one of which is the modified survivor? Or are you comparing the "4" number to a pre-game map number?

Is there an internal contradiction between your 2nd and 4th paragraphs, or am I reading it wrong? Or did you change your mind?

[Iecerint]

It's possible that DTM is the modified survivor, since we haven't heard that he's a modified survivor per se. I suppose Tar and/or DTM will let us know. In such an event, cult may have succeeded.

[Iecerint]

I'VE GOT A THEORY; WE SHOULD WORK THIS OUT~.

[Iecerint]

^ Is this Kinetic claiming the redaction? Or just Kinetic snuggling with Tar?

[Iecerint]

EBWOP: OMG IT DISAPPEARED SHENANIGANS.

[Iecerint]

(To clarify my post -- it should've been "that he's a modified lyncher" per se. Not that that applies any longer.)

ABR, are you in a position to tell why you excluded the Norse Gods from worship? Also, why did you ask us to estimate number of scum?

[Iecerint]

^ Yep, at the end of D2.

[Iecerint]

Maybe it was Nikanor who was supposed to die but the action got shifted.

Why do you point this out now?

[Iecerint]

Nevermind. I'll watch and see.

[Iecerint]

^ I say why in the same post. I'm operating on the assumption that the factions are roughly balanced to start. Given that, scum deaths in a faction increase the ratio of town benefit to scum benefit when said faction has worship.

If SK was actually town (and we'll know after the day ends, so we can submit worship knowing her alignment for certain), then it probably becomes best to worship either Angels or Norse.

And if there is reason to believe that said balance did not exist, that's a whole separate issue.

[Iecerint]

Well, yeah, there was more than 1 town GOO to start. So far I am not impressed.

[Iecerint]

ABR, my point was that you were giving SB an excuse for her actions. Then I realized that I would O_O at her if she actually used such a lame argument, so that was the nevermind bit. I hope that's all clear now.

If there's a pre-grave-onry reviver, SX would probably be an obvious target. <_<

[Iecerint]

Nice list. What makes manho town? Also, are Niki and raj in their own tier?