The Children of Húrin Mafia (GREAT REVIVAL)
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Herodotus Black Ops
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I'm still at the top of page 25, but why not post my notes?
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Notes on specific scummy things people have said:
Furcolow - early - super-defensive and spammy, strongly anti-town reaction to Magister
Post 418 - "lynch all liars" - is that something that he holds to (meta)? Because Andrius told him "Don't be an asshat and claim things you're not."
Magna - post 204 "The “But he was using it to Breadcrumb in LOTR” doesn’t fly with his obv bold crumbing also." - those crumbs didn't say anything, and Gandalf could have created their meaning after the fact. Though I don't think Gandalf is scum.
Willowisp - post 230 connection to furcolow
Empking - not making himself useful, as mockingjaye said in post 357.
Active lurkinghardon page 18.
post 589 is surreal humour.
VitaminR -
post 359 is reaching on PereV. LordChronos's "big post" was the post that told me I was replacing a townie, so VR's reaction calling it scummy is questionable.
post 360 is avoteFoS for an obvtownie (mockingjaye).
MOS post 439 holds gandalf (and implicitly andrius) to an unreasonable standard of role PM clarity for a bastard game. Besides, why bother arguing that a player is a jester?
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As much as Magister looks town, the one-line posts are 100% different from his town play in SMII.
Magister, Vitamin - why did you vote kanye on page 9?
Spyrex is playing differently from both Spy-town and Spy-scum, and I don't mean calling himself a princess. Do you have a post restriction?
Please! Put me in a catapult and fire me at the scum, I'll land with sword drawn.Spyrex wrote:And no, don't think this means I've forgot about the Chrono twins. I wouldn't be said if they got conscripted to fight for my daddy as catapult fodder.
Wraith and dekes are more convinced that gandlf+andrius are town than they are. That doesn't impress.
I had the same thought.Pere wrote:re: Gandalf/Andrius- (assuming any truth to thier claims/posts/etc.)- I think they may be the equivalent of "blank slates", with maybe some sort of action by the seraphs to get them on a team. Or maybe more flavor stuff.
gandalf, does your role PM have no character name and basically say "who am I and how did I get here?"(Not sure if that is still relevant.)
@Espeonage, posts 518 and 544. What's between the lines? Are you saying that you're counterclaiming gandalf?
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likely town
willowisp
mockingjaye
Gut
Elib, Wraith, and Feysal have given me good feelings, but not as strongly.
likely scum
VitaminR
Empking
MOS
Kanyek, maybe? I don't have a big scum read on him, but I'd be willing to sheep onto a wagon.
Not sure about Espeonage. I think he's just playing poorly.
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Magnaofillusion is scum, by the way!Magna wrote:How does the first part even make sense? I've yet to call anyone scum this game AFTER they called me such. That's what OGMUS is Empking ... you should know that by now.
But not really. Well, maybe. I'm undecided.
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Fey, self-aligned?Just because a majority of a group of people decide it's okay doesn't mean it's not murder. - Cobblerfone-
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Herodotus Black Ops
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Just finished Day 1. I don't have much to say about the Pere wagon. There must have been some scum on it, but it already includes some of my top suspects. None of the vote posts stood out as especially scummy on my first read. I may go back and reexamine them later, but I'm more concerned with catching up first.
Dekes and Wraith look like townies based on their posting prior to the Pere wagon.
I think Seraph1 would have worked against him or reported the incident to the next neighborized player if he had withheld it.In post 680, Will-o-wisp wrote:Magna could have easily withheld that information. Instead he chose to post very helpful information that could lead to an explanation on your role (and by proxy, Gandalf's role) and give town a large amount of information. That is why we are confident in Magna town.
Magna acting as messenger is null. It's a pro-town action, but if he didn't do it, he would have been discovered, so he'd do it as town or anti-town. (I do think he's telling the truth about the neighborhood.)
Assuming this is a complete lurker list, I now think Sun and Moon is likely scum.In post 625, Dekes wrote:But what I'm absolutely sure about is that there's scum in the skating by-pool (Pere, SaM, Wraith, WoW...is Chrono V/LA of any sorts? Because that ISO is just disgusting).
Furcolow and MoS are probably not buddies in light of furcolow post 639. Scum probably wouldn't say "[buddy] complimented me"
Did you mean roles like the ones gandalf and andrius claimed?In post 647, Furcolow wrote:it's not what you know, it's what you can convince everyone else
MoI has just confirmed there are probably roles like that unless he made up the seraph's contacting him
MoI, did you confirm that? I missed it.
Willowisp's quote in post 778 is notable for cutting out a significant line. But I think he was mostly just answering Dekes's question, so it's probably not scum-motivated misquoting.Just because a majority of a group of people decide it's okay doesn't mean it's not murder. - Cobblerfone-
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In post 855, MagnaofIllusion wrote:Dekes wrote:I'll try to get a couple of posts in until then, but no promises.
But this Pere wagon makes me feel good inside. Need to take a look at the voters, but for now I'll join anyway.
Unvote; Vote: PeregrineV
Ok Dekes is scum? Why you ask? Because HE WAS ALREADY VOTING PERE WHEN HE POSTED THIS.
Hard to believe he suddenly was convinced Pere was scum by the Feysal case when he supposedly already had a scum read on Pere and was voting him.
Scumtastic.
I disagree. It looks like he just forgot where his vote was, which isn't scummy.
Minor FoS: Spyrex for agreeing. Furcolow and Magna don't get FoS's, but they burned some credibility.
In post 876, Furcolow wrote:Also, Feysal, I can't believe you targetted me
talk about wraithfulness
you're not a town vig either
D1: "Could a vig please try to kill me?"
D2: "Fey targeted me. OMG WHYYYY?!?!?!?"Just because a majority of a group of people decide it's okay doesn't mean it's not murder. - Cobblerfone-
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In post 877, VitaminR wrote:In post 872, Gut wrote:VitR made uncharacteristically many accusations (and not particularly good ones either ("slushy snowballs" if you get the reference (which you probably don't))). He's scums.
Do we have to do this again? WHY? You can't read me. I know this, you know this. Stop just thinking I'm scum for no real reason when you know this.
You're concerned with their (there's two of them) overall ability to read you, but not their reasons for thinking you're scum?
I'm not sure that that is a scumtell or a towntell, but it's odd.
(I expect it's the type of oddity that passes for a scumtell in the MS community. I'm not sure whether it is one, but if it gets scum lynched...)
I'm not sure, but I think that technically speaking, readability has to be independent of alignment, almost by definition.In post 879, VitaminR wrote:Though for them I seem to be easier to read when I'm scum.
In post 885, Mastermind of Sin wrote:In post 883, Herodotus wrote:
MOS post 439 holds gandalf (and implicitly andrius) to an unreasonable standard of role PM clarity for a bastard game. Besides, why bother arguing that a player is a jester?
Because if a player is a jester, we *don't* want to lynch them. Since gandalf had exhibited jester signs, we were better off having a vig NK him. Which apparently Feysal failed to do.
I don't think that lynching a jester is much worse than vigging them (wagon analysis is damaged, but either way, it's a town-controlled kill expended, a necessary waste of time), but I recall there was something about you actuallyarguingthat gandalf was a jester that seemed off.
@Andrius: who were the scum trying to save Feysal with the counterwagon?
(Not sure if that's still relevant given Feysal's claim, but it stood out to me that he left that unanswered - from post 906, I think.)
@Manga: Are you guaranteed that the people posting in the QT are who they say they are? I know this is paranoid to ask, but can you confirm that it isn't possible that faraday/mina are faking AGM's posts?
Regarding gandalf, it's not clear whether the seraphs have the ability to restore a character's memory... if they don't, then surely they wouldn't assume gandalf is lying, as there would have to be some such mechanism, and if they do, it seems like that would have been an early priority.
I see no contradiction between the claim that you're accusing too many people of being scum and the claim that you're ignoring some people who "should be on your short list".In post 924, MagnaofIllusion wrote:Dekes wrote:The way you're treating those people who should be on your short scum list differently based on how they view you is disturbing. Especially SpyreX comes here to mind who's way sheepier than I've ever seen him and apart from role playing has been solely reactive the whole game. And he was on both the early gandalf and the final Pere wagon. And yet you're giving him a pass on giving reasons for the Pere vote and can only muster a half-assed dig at him. You need your sheep this game or are you actually trying to read those people, too?
This whole paragraph is an exercise in undermining. Much better than your old reaction to pressure (angry OMGUS … Lost Season 1 vintage) but very reminicient of how you reacted in Battle for Olympus. You don’t outright come out and call me scum but lay the groundwork for later with phrases like “is disturbing” and “You need your sheep” (indicating I’m not really looking for reads).
This paragraph is also at odds with earlier statements from you. Before I had “too many scumreads” for your taste but this seems to indicate I’m not finding enough people properly scummy. Those are on some level contradictory. Either that or I am just finding the wrong people scummy.
I have no idea what you just said.In post 927, Will-o-wisp wrote:The only reason I did that is because I switched into BlazBlue and by default I had to ask for an extension and it looked like Plum just gave it to Herodotus.
I think what Spyrex was trying cryptically to say - or not say - was: "@gandalf, if Andrius's role is related to your role, do you think he's anti-town based on your identity?"
In post 891, Furcolow wrote:His win condition is like "must survive to endgame" not "must kill town"In post 939, Furcolow wrote:He might be SK, but we can force him to kill where we want him toDo you actually know his win condition, or are you
speculatingfiguring it out based on public information?
@Magna: you want guaranteed scum?
Then vote for VitaminR.
Or S&M, if Feysal agrees to kill him N2. But I think S&M would make a better vig kill, given that it's their lurking that's scummy.
In post 962, MagnaofIllusion wrote:In post 960, Herodotus wrote:Dekes and Wraith look like townies based on their posting prior to the Pere wagon.
Please elaborate ... especially in regards to Dekes.
It was some specific post(s)... I think they may have been at the top of a page... around 27? I'll try to get back to it. How high of a priority is this though, if Feysal is 75% likely to be lynched today, and Dekes isn't next in line?
At a quick glance: I suspect it was the things he said to Empking in posts 625-633.
I assume Feysal is not the second player with QT access; is that correct?
I don't have a read on you, but that doesn't mean you don't have some town credit. A few things that stand out about you:In post 972, MagnaofIllusion wrote:Why would you say I 'burned some crediblity'? You just recently epicly fence-sat on me saying, in effect, "MoI is scum right? Or maybe not. Can't tell". How would I have any significant credibility in your eyes if you had suspicions I was scum.
Does Not Compute.
Faramina, a presumed town seraph, presumably thinks you're town, and I assume this is partly based on their believing that they can read you well.
You've been talkative, making long posts, but I'm pretty sure you'd do that regardless of your alignment.
You've accused a variety of people of scumminess, which is a very slight towntell because it means you're not afraid to be on the receiving end of OMGUS reactions.
With respect to Dekes in particular, I think your accusation is overblown. I don't think there was logical support to the idea behind your argument.
In post 973, VitaminR wrote:In post 967, Gut wrote:Agree with Spy. I see no reason to say no to an extra de facto town controlled kill. Added pluses here are that 1) Feysal's one of those players to whom helping the town comes naturally and 2) I see no reason why his win condition need be mutually exclusive with ours - odds are he'll win simply by surviving long enough.
I guess he's not as bad as an actual SK but we need to really dictate his kill every night (and this makes his kill much more vulnerable to outside messing with). If we give him a list, he'll just kill those that are also on his list and we have no idea of whether his list is town- or scum-sided or balanced. PLUS, he's claimed non-town-aligned and could EASILY be lying about important details of his claim, e.g. whether he needs to survive, what kind of killing/recruiting abilities he has, etc.
He probably has a list of role names, so he doesn't know which players are "on his list", meaning any kill is equally good if it helps him survive, unless people start claiming role names.
@Feysal: do you need to survive in order to win?
@Magister: in case you're still reading, I wish you well.
And now, I'm caught up, other than needing to go back and recall what convinced me dekes was town.Just because a majority of a group of people decide it's okay doesn't mean it's not murder. - Cobblerfone-
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According to data on past games, Serial Killers improve town win rates. Feysal is at worst a SK, and more likely is what he claims.
As long as Feysal will be killing scummy players, he's a bigger threat to groupscum than he is to town. Let them be the ones to worry about him. The town can use our lynches on the scum instead of spending two of them chainlynching Feysal and Furcolow.
But also, let's not neglect scumhunting while we consider that.
@Everyone: The only people Mastermind of Sin has supported lynching are Feysal and Furcolow, and his support on Furcolow was low.
@Mas: Is that correct? Do you think either of them is groupscum? Are there any people you believe to be groupscum?
@Everyone: VitaminR appears to want to lynch Feysal but isn't voting. Do you think he is waiting for support from others? Also, whom does he think is scum? Can anyone tell from his posts? Do you get the feeling that he doesn't want to argue for any scum lynches or find scum?Just because a majority of a group of people decide it's okay doesn't mean it's not murder. - Cobblerfone-
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@VitaminR:
I've suspected you since page 15, though I don't see the relevance of that.
And I wasn't using the point to evaluate your alignment - I have done and will do that separately - but to convince others to join the wagon on you.
Why Dekes? And, I'm sure you could .
What are your own thoughts on that?In post 1016, MagnaofIllusion wrote:
Herod wrote:Regarding gandalf, it's not clear whether the seraphs have the ability to restore a character's memory... if they don't, then surely they wouldn't assume gandalf is lying, as there would have to be some such mechanism, and if they do, it seems like that would have been an early priority.
The question that Minaday seems to have so far is not related to their ability to restore but whether Gandalf’s claim was faked in the first place and he had his role all along.
http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 0#p2646790In post 1016, MagnaofIllusion wrote:
Herod wrote:According to data on past games, Serial Killers improve town win rates. Feysal is at worst a SK, and more likely is what he claims.
Can you back up this statement with a link to said data?
The most significant comparisons are 3:9 to 3:1:8 and 2:10 to 2:1:9. (Town roles were not necessarily constant.)
It's for Mini Normals, but there's no reason to think it won't help. But on the other hand, those comparisons are equivalent to the difference between lynching an SK and lynching a townie with no information gain. But if we do lynch a townie today, we will gain information. Also, as I said before, we have better things to do than lynch someone that the mafia will want to deal with themselves. Finally, based on their claims, if Feysal dies, Furcolow becomes a liability to the town over time if we don't immediately start lynching scum. Wasting two lynches/vigshots on them would hand the game to the mafia.Just because a majority of a group of people decide it's okay doesn't mean it's not murder. - Cobblerfone-
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In post 1018, VitaminR wrote:In post 1017, Herodotus wrote:@VitaminR:
I've suspected you since page 15, though I don't see the relevance of that.
And I wasn't using the point to evaluate your alignment - I have done and will do that separately - but to convince others to join the wagon on you.
What I meant was that you haven't been suspecting me for long. I guess I'm just surprised at how you're picking at the things I say like everything I say is scummy. It seems opportunistic and doesn't really give me the feeling that you're continuously re-evaluating how valid your read is (which you should be doing if you're town, especially because you're wrong). You called me "guaranteed scum," which is just patently ridiculous, just on the basis of how little I've posted (something I always do in large games, btw, before you try to spin that into a scumtell) and how little you know of my playstyle.
Actually, here's a question for you. Are you usually this confident about reads that are wrong? This is a serious question, though it may sound condescending. Could you show me a game in which you were town and latched on to someone in a similar way even though you were wrong?
I haven't said that everything you say is scummy. Most of your posts don't give me any indication of your alignment and I haven't mentioned them. Please explain why you would claim this.
Where did I call you guaranteed scumon the basis of how little you've posted? You're putting words into my posts. I did comment on your lack of expressed reads, but that was after I voted you or used the phrase "guaranteed scum", and that's different from a lurking accusation. Sun and Moon is the only player I have considered for a lurkerlynch.
I'm not concerned about any condescension in your first question, but it's a misleading question because it asks me to assume I'm wrong. On the second question, I feel like you're trying to undermine my argument by attacking my scumhunting record. When I replace into games, I typically have accurate reads, so yes, I'm confident. Sometimes I develop inaccurate reads, but I'm open to changing them if there is a reason.
On what basis would I have reevaluated my read on you? Something pro-town that you have done? Continuous re-evaluation doesn't mean changing your mind and deciding someone is town just because they want you to.Just because a majority of a group of people decide it's okay doesn't mean it's not murder. - Cobblerfone-
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In post 1019, Ellibereth wrote:
http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/search.p ... 0&sr=posts
Vote: Willowisp
What is the significance of the search? Did you read the most recent post: http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 5#p3487985 ?
Context?Just because a majority of a group of people decide it's okay doesn't mean it's not murder. - Cobblerfone-
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In post 1028, VitaminR wrote:But anyway.
In post 1023, Herodotus wrote:I haven't said that everything you say is scummy. Most of your posts don't give me any indication of your alignment and I haven't mentioned them. Please explain why you would claim this.
I just get the impression that, since you've declared suspicion of me, you've been trying to pick apart my posts/behaviour more than is really reasonable (e.g. my response to CES, my stance towards Feysal). But that's just my feeling about it.
That's what mafia is about?
In post 1028, VitaminR wrote:In post 1023, Herodotus wrote:Where did I call you guaranteed scum on the basis of how little you've posted? You're putting words into my posts. I did comment on your lack of expressed reads, but that was after I voted you or used the phrase "guaranteed scum", and that's different from a lurking accusation.
That's not what I meant. I meant that just considering how little I've posted I find it hard to believe that you can think I'm guaranteed scum.
Okay, I see what you mean. But I disagree with the general idea that it takes a lot of posts to read someone. And you seem to be arguing here that you haven't posted enough to be scummy enough*; I don't like that either.
* for some value of the word enough
In post 1028, VitaminR wrote:In post 1023, Herodotus wrote:I'm not concerned about any condescension in your first question, but it's a misleading question because it asks me to assume I'm wrong. On the second question, I feel like you're trying to undermine my argument by attacking my scumhunting record. When I replace into games, I typically have accurate reads, so yes, I'm confident. Sometimes I develop inaccurate reads, but I'm open to changing them if there is a reason.
I'm not trying to undermine you. I just want an example of where you were wrong about such an apparently strong read from the get-go, so I can evaluate your attack in a larger context. This is purely to help me establish a read on you. If you're worried about looking like a bad scumhunter, you can give me a bunch of examples where you were right to offset it.
I'll give you a game that includes both. In Mini 815, I joined on page 6, and using only pages 1-5 decided that two players were scum. One was, and the other wasn't. My first content post was this one, about the non-scum one (I wasn't voting because of game mechanics). The best example of my confidence on those reads was this response after Papa Zito, one of my town reads, joined me on the scum wagon on page 8. You may want to continue reading on page 9.
If your point is to study my playstyle and see whether I often express confidence in my reads when I'm town, the answer is yes, and I can provide evidence of that. Whether those reads are correct or incorrect wouldn't affect my behaviour, as I would hold the same belief either way.
I look forward to future Sun and Moon content.Just because a majority of a group of people decide it's okay doesn't mean it's not murder. - Cobblerfone-
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In post 1097, SpyreX wrote:Now I'm not a monster nor a monster slayer but I thought that a hydra, not just having teeth, had multiple heads with multiple mouths that could make multiple words.
Why would one head sticking itself in the dirt trying to find china stop the other one?
Amrun mentioned notes. As long as they aren't role-related, why not post them?
In post 1096, Mastermind of Sin wrote:What, you expect me to make something up to please you? Lawl.
Not directed at me, but since I mentioned it earlier, yes. I expect you to have one or a dozen opinions.Just because a majority of a group of people decide it's okay doesn't mean it's not murder. - Cobblerfone-
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I'm limited access until Tuesday. But I do plan to continue reading the thread, and if anyone has questions, I can answer them.
I don't have a read on ooba yet.
I'd be willing to vote kanye if deadline was close, but see no need right now.Just because a majority of a group of people decide it's okay doesn't mean it's not murder. - Cobblerfone-
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@Empking: why?
@Furcolow: what are your full win conditions? And did you say something about choosing your win condition, or am I misremembering? If so, how does that work -- when do you choose?Just because a majority of a group of people decide it's okay doesn't mean it's not murder. - Cobblerfone-
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Sorry everyone. If I had known how busy I would be for the past week, I probably wouldn't have entered the game, at least not yet. I expect to have time within the next 24 hours to catch up. In the meantime, a little IIoA:
@Magna (or Andrius?): Can you tell whether a scum seraph would know who the scum are? And do the seraphs have a list of abilities that the other can use? (Or do they feel it would be better not to answer that yet?)
@Feysal: could you ask the mod what your kill flavour is?Just because a majority of a group of people decide it's okay doesn't mean it's not murder. - Cobblerfone-
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Still slightly behind.
kanye voters:
perev, willow, mockingj, wraith, ooba, sunandmoon, gut, (perev, feysal, espeonage
(wraith, furcolow, gandalf, (ooba, eliber, (mockingj, andrius, (willow, magna, empking
Some notes, using the votecounts plus Empking's vote:
15 unique players have voted for kanyek.
1, pereginev, is confirmed town.
2 are claimed 3rd party.
1 claims not to know his role.
4 players voted him on both D1 and D2: wraith, ooba, mockingj, willow.
4 players who didn't vote him on Day 1 voted him on Day 2: gandalf, elib, andruis, magna, empking
4 players who voted him on Day 1 are not voting him now: sunandmoon, gut, feysal, espeonage
That's a high enough number of voters to be troubling. It leaves the following possible buddies:
VitaminR, MastermindOS, dekes, spyrex, and anyone who might be or have been bussing.
I was hoping this would make things more clear, but I'm lacking an interpretation.
I don't think we can read much into the Day 1 kanyek/feysal wagon-stalling, despite the competing theories.
Wraith gets scumpoints for 1084. Magna explains why in 1085.
@MasterOS: You say that talking about game theory in a way that results in reads is a form of scumhunting. But I dont remember you making any accusations based on the idea of gandalf as a jester or MagnaOI as maybe-faking the QT.
Magna keeps saying specific, scummy things, such as his comments to MastermindOS in post 1116, his reference to "outdated wikitells", and calling kanyek survivalist for joining a wagon he supported. But he has also convinced me he's probably town based on the rest of his content. He's playing like a townie. And I don't think a scum player would be upset over undermining.
MastermindOS is ironic in post 1124.
MastermindOS and Magna's stances on Feysal and whether to shoot gandalf are both internally consistent, though I can understand why each thinks the other is inconsistent. I'm losing my scumread on MasterOS -- although Empking calling him the towniest player in the game is silly.
Do any other players here have experience with Magister Ludi? In our only other game together, he was town, and he was more verbose. http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... lect=15679
In post 1169, Will-o-wisp wrote:I miss talking about the game away from prying eyes.
As of page 48, I'm feeling less certain about willowisp-town for reasons that should be obvious. I don't like the last response to spyrex.Just because a majority of a group of people decide it's okay doesn't mean it's not murder. - Cobblerfone-
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In post 1157, Herodotus wrote:@Furcolow: what are your full win conditions? And did you say something about choosing your win condition, or am I misremembering? If so, how does that work -- when do you choose?
I think this question is important because furcolow has given unclear information on this, possibly to mislead. And he avoided it.Just because a majority of a group of people decide it's okay doesn't mean it's not murder. - Cobblerfone-
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I remember that too, but I believe Andrius when he said he had no role during Day 1. (I still believe him today, but that's unrelated.)In post 1222, Feysal wrote:I do remember that Andrius was pushing for my lynch quite strongly at the time. That is the only thing that gives me any serious doubt about whether kanye is town, since Andrius could have been scum trying to save his partner.
That does nothing but give Espeonage a reason to lurk.In post 1249, Will-o-wisp wrote:I like our vote on Kanye and I if I am going to sheep you I want to hear from Espeonage first.
Feysal is making himself useful beyond what I'd expect, which makes me more inclined than I already was to keep him around, as long as he only kills either scummy players or scum (not always the same thing).
Gandalf claims to have become town, but he was active before that, and started lurking after. He's on my scumlist now. Gandalf, whom are you voting, and why?
Good Feysal targets if they aren't lynched: VitaminR, Gandalf
Second tier: Espeonage, Sunandmoon, Empking
Also reasonable: Kanyek. I think he'smore likely townless likely mafia than the above five players, but knowing his alignment would be helpful information whether he's town or scum.Just because a majority of a group of people decide it's okay doesn't mean it's not murder. - Cobblerfone-
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In post 1301, ooba wrote:Btw I'll be here till deadline to switch for a lynch if necessary.Just because a majority of a group of people decide it's okay doesn't mean it's not murder. - Cobblerfone-
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In post 1325, ooba wrote:@Hero: You're pointing that out because??
I meant "I agree"/"the same is true for me". I can switch my vote if needed.
As with gut's vote during Day 1, but to a larger extent, ever since I voted VitaminR, he has done nothing but complain about being voted. He made it clear he wanted me to change my mind, but did nothing to make me change my mind. It would be good to point out MastermindOS here - when prompted, he became productive. That seems just as good of a reason to lynch VitaminR as the mixture of gut and reverse-reads that made me vote him originally.Just because a majority of a group of people decide it's okay doesn't mean it's not murder. - Cobblerfone-
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In post 1325, ooba wrote:@Mjaye: I think keeping a scumbuddy on the "person I would lynch" list but not pushing it to lynch is a great scum strategy. (The extreme variation of this is the mutual bussing scum would keep arguing incessantly in thread but never seem to get the other lynched). So yes, I know you've mentioned him.
In post 1325, ooba wrote:Would like to draw parallel's to MoI's position on espe - multiple instances of "Let's add him to the hanging list", "I'd hang espe today" but when it came to the end of day a couple of pages back where I asked people to join a espe wagon, he made a couple of posts on SeraphQT and basically ignored that.
I don't think either of mockingj or magna is scum -- the distancing argument only works if they are.
But feysal shooting Espeonage would be consistent with the working with the town condition on his continued survival, regardless of Espeonage's flip.
I didn't say that.VitaminR wrote:Love the "two people had different responses, one of them must be scum!"-logic. (Though I'll admit that I didn't have that much to say for a lot of today.)Just because a majority of a group of people decide it's okay doesn't mean it's not murder. - Cobblerfone-
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Agreed. Also, the scum-RB possibility. I want feysal to be unpredictable, but with the limitation that he either shoot someone who is scummy, or get lucky and shoot someone who doesn't look scummy but is scum.In post 1332, ooba wrote:@Hero: Not a fan of tying down Feysal to a single target because of scum-doc possibility.
+1. I may think VitaminR is scummy, but I've been in feysal's position before. I wish the VitaminR wagon had gained steam *before* the deadline approached, so these second thoughts weren't at the last hour.Cutting it awfully close - while I can identify with Feysal's switch - it's risky. Also willing to hammer kanye if it means lynch though.Just because a majority of a group of people decide it's okay doesn't mean it's not murder. - Cobblerfone-
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Wraith wrote:WELL THAT'S ANNOYING
WHY DOES THIS TOWN REFUSE TO LYNCH KANYE
In post 1282, Herodotus wrote:15 unique players have voted for kanyek.
I don't know why he hasn't been lynched, but it's not because of a lack of voters.Just because a majority of a group of people decide it's okay doesn't mean it's not murder. - Cobblerfone-
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No, my predecessor wasn't scummy. He was just slowly flaking.
If VitaminR is town, then I'm willing to accept feysal's kill if that's what he decides. But I don't think there is reason to see me as the most suspect voter. Apparently you think I'm scum for:
a) voting you for a long time
b) voting you before I finished reading
As for (a), why would I not be a townie whose case others (Empking, etc.) sheeped?
As for (b), you weren't at L-x, so there was no danger from my vote if I decided to move it later. I wanted to start taking stances before I finished reading. There's no scum motive for that.Just because a majority of a group of people decide it's okay doesn't mean it's not murder. - Cobblerfone-
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What would be the use of expressing doubt, assuming I felt it? It would reduce my ability to lynch the person I thought was scum, for no gain except hedging against the possibility of you being town. Sounds like something that would benefit scum who know they are trying to get a mislynch, or who are bussing but might want to switch away.
I don't know, I'm probably taking it too personally.Gut wrote:In post 1363, Herodotus wrote:Why are you trying to convince a walking dead man that you are town?Just because a majority of a group of people decide it's okay doesn't mean it's not murder. - Cobblerfone-
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Don't know when thread will be closed, so part-by-part:
Me not showing doubt as town:
http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 3#p2980023
I was a VT with a scum-read on Nachomamma, and basically started calling him confirmed-scum.Just because a majority of a group of people decide it's okay doesn't mean it's not murder. - Cobblerfone-
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I'm trying to find an example of the second, but I can't find any game in which I've led a lynch as scum.
In this scum game:
http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... lect=10595
I made a case on Porkens but when he argued against it I didn't respond much, and I didn't try to get him lynched.Just because a majority of a group of people decide it's okay doesn't mean it's not murder. - Cobblerfone-
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Here, from the same game:
http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 2#p2307932
I gave Porkens town credit when a townie was mislynched and he wasn't voting them.
Anyways, my paragraph was a response to what VitaminR said were his reasons for suspecting me (a and b above).Just because a majority of a group of people decide it's okay doesn't mean it's not murder. - Cobblerfone-
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In post 1411, Feysal wrote:Wraith
I guess I feel better. I thought you had killed gandalf because of my suggestion.Just because a majority of a group of people decide it's okay doesn't mean it's not murder. - Cobblerfone-
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As did I. If ooba is a cop with an innocent on Sun and Moon, he needs to claim that.
In post 1433, Mastermind of Sin wrote:Feysal, if you truly want to work with the town to accomplish your win condition without having us kill you first, please leave MoI alive until you have found and killed your fourth target (you have gotten 2 of 4 so far, right?). If you kill MoI before eliminating your other target, I swear to god I will hunt you down and lynch you before you get the chance to win.
"And my axe." Assuming Magna is town and Sun and Moon is scum, which I'm assuming.
It seems there was no need to include your name when you claimed your result, Magna. "I'm a modified version of a cop, I have a guilty on Sun and Moon, and we have to lynch them first due to a complication of my ability" would have been enough for me.
The votes maxed at 8 (L-1), now the count is 7 (L-2). Let's leave it that way so scum can't quickhammer. While I'd like to hear from furcolow and ooba, I'll vote as soon as Andrius says it's time.Just because a majority of a group of people decide it's okay doesn't mean it's not murder. - Cobblerfone-
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@Ooba: Is Sun and Moon confirmed town in your role PM?
We now have claimed killers for every NK that has succeeded, and one that didn't. If Sun and Moon is town, and Feysal is anything like what he claims to be, then there has been no mafia kill.
Given the setup contained a normal town doctor I'd expect a mafia with a kill ability.Just because a majority of a group of people decide it's okay doesn't mean it's not murder. - Cobblerfone-
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In post 1512, kanyeknowsbest wrote:Herodotus wrote:We now have claimed killers for every NK that has succeeded, and one that didn't. If Sun and Moon is town, and Feysal is anything like what he claims to be, then there has been no mafia kill.
is that so?5. gandalf5166, Aerin, Town Twoshot-Sacrificial Arsonist, tormented and killed Night 2
Never mind, I just assumed Sun had killed gandalf. They claimed they tried to kill espeonage.
If Andrius wasn't saying that faramina had confirmed Sun and Moon's rolename, I would believe that they were mafia lovers with ooba.
On the other hand, I wouldn't expect Magna, as mafia, to fake a guilty before LyLo. Hypothetically the fakeclaimed guilty would be on a miller, so if his team had a rolecop result then he would know he'd have an explanation for it, but he'd also know that Sun and Moon was a mason.
It's also significant that the role name they are both claiming is one that Feysal might need to outlive. I could see Magna as a third party, like lyncher.
Also, I don't understand how Nienor and Turin would know each other's identities, since that was the one thing they didn't know while they were both alive.Just because a majority of a group of people decide it's okay doesn't mean it's not murder. - Cobblerfone-
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In post 1286, Herodotus wrote:In post 1157, Herodotus wrote:@Furcolow: what are your full win conditions? And did you say something about choosing your win condition, or am I misremembering? If so, how does that work -- when do you choose?
I think this question is important because furcolow has given unclear information on this, possibly to mislead. And he avoided it.
Furcolow wrote:
VOTE: Furcolow
Noting a major coincidence that out of 20 possible targets, Turin's first night action is to kill Beleg.
I think I believe ooba, which makes me likely to believe Sun and Moon.
@Ooba: Letting you/Magister direct their kill on a townie isn't good evidence of their being town.
@Sun and Moon: Did you see furcolow's request to be killed? What was your opinion of that, and what was Magister's?Just because a majority of a group of people decide it's okay doesn't mean it's not murder. - Cobblerfone-
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I wouldn't expect the Seraphs to know what that ability is, so how is this relevant?In post 1536, MagnaofIllusion wrote:I love that you forget that the Seraphs absolutely know they unlocked my latent ability and everything else that’s gone on this game when saying “Hey, why should you believe MoI over me”.
Why?In post 1536, MagnaofIllusion wrote:Ooba wrote:I suggest we lynch empking. MoI should die today if he's telling the truth. You can lynch\vig S&M and me if he flips town.
I hope you enjoy bullets / rope then because you are eating it by the end of tomorrow if we don’t lynch Sun and Moon today.Just because a majority of a group of people decide it's okay doesn't mean it's not murder. - Cobblerfone-
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In post 1413, Andrius wrote:Magna was dropped from the Seraph QT. AGM had the last action, so he presumably dropped Magna.
Strange question, but when did this happen? And what were the results - can Magna still read it, but not post in it?
Also, you say that there are suppposedly two other people whose identities haven't been revealed who are allowed in the Seraph QT? Who told you this? I think at least one other QT member player should claim, to confirm your accounts.Just because a majority of a group of people decide it's okay doesn't mean it's not murder. - Cobblerfone-
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That is as I understood from Magna's description.
While I have no reason to think you'd lie, I also have no reason to expect you to care to help the town. Either you are anti-town, or you don't know whom to help. The only two motives I can expect from you are survival or pro-scum.Just because a majority of a group of people decide it's okay doesn't mean it's not murder. - Cobblerfone-
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@Ellibereth: I think we all agree that Empking is likely scum, but if Sunandmoon is also scum, we should lynch sunandmoon first.
Where is ooba?
Also, Amrun, you should forward your questions to Vi if Plum hasn't answered, as it appears Vi is the backup mod and may answer if Plum is V/LA.Just because a majority of a group of people decide it's okay doesn't mean it's not murder. - Cobblerfone-
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In post 1538, Herodotus wrote:In post 1286, Herodotus wrote:In post 1157, Herodotus wrote:@Furcolow: what are your full win conditions? And did you say something about choosing your win condition, or am I misremembering? If so, how does that work -- when do you choose?
I think this question is important because furcolow has given unclear information on this, possibly to mislead. And he avoided it.
Furcolow wrote:
VOTE: Furcolow
I don't think it's likely that Furcolow has missed my question three times. He has claimed that he doesn't have a town win condition, but refuses to discuss that win condition. Apparently it's going to take some pressure for him to answer. Dekes, mockingjaye, kanyeknowsbest, Espeonage, and Will-o-wisp, you're not voting. If some of you agree that this is something that we should expect of him, would you vote him until he responds?
The only thing I find scummy about Sunandmoon/Amrun is the "masons" question. When I get a mason role, if it isn't specified that it means confirmed-town, I ask the mod whether both players are confirmed town to each other. Just knowing that Nienor is my sister, or respectively that Turin is my brother, doesn't mean I know (s)he's town; but maybe the mod intended for me to know that. For her to be playing without knowing the answer is a major deviation from what I would do in the role she claims to be in.
But other than that, Amrun has appeared entirely genuine since claiming.Just because a majority of a group of people decide it's okay doesn't mean it's not murder. - Cobblerfone-
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Just because a majority of a group of people decide it's okay doesn't mean it's not murder. - Cobblerfone-
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... which is not to say that I disagree that Espeonage might be lurkerscum, but your play has been frustrating here. Tell us your point.
kanyek raises a decent point in response to ooba.
http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/search.p ... 3&sr=postsJust because a majority of a group of people decide it's okay doesn't mean it's not murder. - Cobblerfone-
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We... might?
@Magna: You switch back and forth between saying that ooba/Magister is scum and saying that he just doesn't know Sunandmoon's alignment. It looks like you're using whichever argument is more convenient.
@Amrun: were you told that chronopie was Beleg when you were told that you had become a miller, or did you only find out when you read it in the thread?Just because a majority of a group of people decide it's okay doesn't mean it's not murder. - Cobblerfone-
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@Amrun, without asking the mod, look at your role PM. Does it contain any sentences that mention Magister Ludi's alignment? Paraphrase those sentences in your own words. Do this in your next post. I will accept no excuses.
In post 1536, MagnaofIllusion wrote:Ooba wrote:I suggest we lynch empking. MoI should die today if he's telling the truth. You can lynch\vig S&M and me if he flips town.
I hope you enjoy bullets / rope then because you are eating it by the end of tomorrow if we don’t lynch Sun and Moon today.
Does this not mean you suspected ooba? Were you just literally responding to his words without your own evaluation?
In post 1661, MagnaofIllusion wrote:
While you are on that errand I’d like you to explain how the fact that both Amrun and Magister have officially confirmed that they are NOT alignment confirmed means that Magister has to be Town.
I can't explain something that isn't true. Please show a link to where I say ooba / Magister has to be town. I'll help you by pointing you to the closest thing you'll find:
In post 1538, Herodotus wrote:I think I believe ooba, which makes me likely to believe Sun and Moon.
@Ooba: Letting you/Magister direct their kill on a townie isn't good evidence of their being town.
@Sun and Moon: Did you see furcolow's request to be killed? What was your opinion of that, and what was Magister's?
In post 1676, MagnaofIllusion wrote:I also note that your refuse to vote either the Cop Guilty or hypo-Seraph guilty and want to free-lance with your vote.
You mention this why?
I could have sworn that you disliked allcaps posting.
Magna, your accusation of IIoA is absurd. Due to the 'I' claimed by Andrius, you, Sunandmoon, and ooba, today is an 'I' day. There are only a few players worth 'A' 'ing right now, and I've been analyzing Sunandmoon. You simply don't like some of my results.
In post 1664, Amrun wrote:Who do you think is vig
How common are vigs in large games? I'd expect they would be present in almost all larges.
@Magister Ludi: When and how did you learn that sunandmoon was a vig?Just because a majority of a group of people decide it's okay doesn't mean it's not murder. - Cobblerfone-
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In post 1683, Magister Ludi wrote:What is SpyreX saying in his previous post?
1. Vigs being better than cops doesn't make the mason claim more likely to be true.
2. I'm bored and want DEATH TO SOMEONE.
(just translating)Just because a majority of a group of people decide it's okay doesn't mean it's not murder. - Cobblerfone-
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In post 1690, Amrun wrote:Mine is the same as Ludi's - reasonably sure he's the same alignment. I think Ludi is town so it's a distraction to get caught up in this. "Mason, reasonably sure he's the same alignment" is pretty freaking good when combined with actual actions that indicate town.
Why didn't you say this a long time ago? At first glance, it looks inconsistent with what you said earlier.
If your role PM says you're reasonably sure he's the same alignment, what is there to ask the mod?
@Magister: I wouldn't vote kanyek any time soon. I'll review Dekes in the near future.Just because a majority of a group of people decide it's okay doesn't mean it's not murder. - Cobblerfone-
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In post 495, Dekes wrote:I don't agree with any of the wagons that are up for voting. I don't like how PeregrineV has gotten no heat so far for his scummy posts.
No where in this post does Dekes say what made Pere's posts scummy.
Magna keeps mentioning cognitive dissonance... Dekes later criticizes Pere for not giving reasons for his kanyek vote. And indirectly, Spyrex for not giving reasons for his Pere vote.
In post 496, Dekes wrote:Lol, shit. Those reads were added as I read along. They're not actually supposed to be in that post.
If Dekes is scum, this is scum stating in the thread that they intended to withold their reads. WIFOM, but it points to town.
@Dekes: You commented on people calling you town early in the game without evaluation. What is your opinion on the significance of that?
His issue with Empking looks like he was trying to be helpful. I'll be able to say a little more after he answers the question I should have asked earlier:
@Dekes: What were your opinions of Empking's and MagnaOI's alignments at the time? And now?
As I said before, forgetting that he was already voting Pere is null.
@Dekes: Have you taken a look at the Pere voters?
Dekes supported lynching Feysal, which town might want, and scum definitely would want.
I like that in Post 1414 Dekes analyzed Feysal with some solid doubts. (Feysal answered the biggest one, targeting furcolow, to my satisfaction.)
In post 1431, Dekes wrote:Also, it looks like Wraith weak doctor'd gandalf N1, judging from his posts D2. But eh, I guess, that's not important anymore.
+townpoints
In post 1444, Dekes wrote:That was indeed shady since ooba has very recent first hand experience with complete lurker(ish) scum teams (Back to the Future Mafia, Battle of Olympus Mafia).
But ooba replaced Ludi, right? I always were pretty fond of him.
This gives me a slight town feel.
Quoting this because Feysal forgot(?) to answer.
All the Sunandmoon stuff matches my feelings somewhat. In short, either Sunandmoon is scum or they are town who seriously failed with their role information/claim.
@Magna: I think you may need to explain why you nameclaimed today, instead of post-game. The name you claimed makes you likely to be on Feysal's list, marking you for death when he otherwise might have shot someone from a faction opposed to yours.
That makes you even more unlikely to be mafia than you already were, but it adds fuel to the third-party lyncher or cult speculation that is haunting my mind.Just because a majority of a group of people decide it's okay doesn't mean it's not murder. - Cobblerfone-
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In post 1696, Andrius wrote:Ok ok we need to sort some crap out.
Faramina confirms that Magister-ooba is indeed Nienor.
I don't see how that information is helpful. Can they tell us whether Magna is Turin? That was the rolename-cop investigation we needed. I know you said earlier that they didn't believe there would be two Turins, but I assume that was just setup speculation.
Mechanically, I'm not sure whether it matters. But I'm trying to reason this out:
If we know Magna is not Turin, we should lynch him today.
If we know Magna is Turin, then of the 2 Turins, one could be scum or both could be town. Potentially both could be scum, but certainly not aligned together because that would be rediculous. We should not lynch Magna, but that doesn't necessarily say whether we should lynch Sun.
I didn't post this earlier, but I don't recall why:
A player who doesn't even win with the town is making more sense than anyone else in the game.
But I disagree about two things:
Espeonage being a goon wouldn't protect him from a NK, so either the kill was prevented in some way that doesn't implicate him as scum, or he's a GF.
It's reasonable for Espeonage to be on townies' kill-but-not-top-priority lists, because the big scummy thing people are pointing out about him is his lurking, which tends to be overshadowed by in-thread stuff. So I'm not convinced by the association tell (unless some who have taken such a stance on him die and flip scum). That said, he's a reasonable wagon, and if Furcolow would answer my questions, I might join you.
From the signup thread:
While no direct (or, as far as I can see, implied) lies to the players are involved, this is a game with distinct elements of bastardry. If every faction feels, at some point, at least a little bit screwed over, that will be just as planned. When signing up for this game, please be aware that no guarantees are made against any controversial setup element or Moderator behavior.
If Sun's role PM honestly does say that Magister ooba is Nienor, I don't think this is a mod-lie.
Although if roles are being duplicated, Andrius could still potentially be Nienor too.Just because a majority of a group of people decide it's okay doesn't mean it's not murder. - Cobblerfone-
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In post 1709, mockingjaye wrote:The Seraphs have confirmed that they gave MoI the Suicide Cop role during N2
I'm pretty sure that the Seraphs only confirmed that they "activated" MagnaofI, and they CANNOT confirm that this made him a suicide cop.
Consider your analysis again, given that.Just because a majority of a group of people decide it's okay doesn't mean it's not murder. - Cobblerfone-
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In post 1721, Andrius wrote:In post 1720, MagnaofIllusion wrote:deactivate my latent Power
Here's an idea.
Magna should ask the mod whether that would prevent his death though, otherwise it's a waste of a good-seraph action.Just because a majority of a group of people decide it's okay doesn't mean it's not murder. - Cobblerfone-
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From the votecount...
Furcolow desperately needs to be vigged, this time permanently. For the reason why I voted him.
Sunandmoon is more likely town than scum.
Either Empking is town, or he's a role that prevents Andrius from learning who he is, OR Andrius found out Night 2 that he's scum and has been faking the no-role thing since then. Most likely, town.
Espeonage/smargaret is the most likely scum of all viable wagons.
VOTE: smargaret
Re: the wagon, I've been unsure about Gut since VitaminR flipped town, and Feysal isn't town, so the wagon is - ... but there are other possible voters.Just because a majority of a group of people decide it's okay doesn't mean it's not murder. - Cobblerfone-
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Herodotus Black Ops
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I just thought of something, and I feel stupid for not considering it earlier.
How often does a mafia mason claim to their mason partner that they are also a vig?
I would guess that this has never happened in any previous game.
It would limit their options too much. A PR claims? Can't tell your partner that you're going to kill it; so your team will be forced to either not kill that PR (yet), or pretend you tried to kill the person you agreed on and it failed, which should damage your credibility enough to make the whole gambit backfire.
So I don't see Sunandmoon as a mafia member with Magister as a townie. That doesn't rule out other possibilities, but it was previously what I saw as the most likely Sun-scum scenario.Just because a majority of a group of people decide it's okay doesn't mean it's not murder. - Cobblerfone-
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In post 1779, kanyeknowsbest wrote:i just realized i havent said shit about herodotus yet. its largely gut and that this is the way i felt about him in another game where i ignored him all game and he turned out to be scum.
Everyone ignored me in that game because I wanted them to.
In post 1779, kanyeknowsbest wrote:ppl i dont want vigged:im still thinking town on spyrex, moi is obvious, mos im feeling a lot better about,gut town imo especially is amrun flips town, empkings claim is town, ludi even if amrun flipped scum i still am thinking town.
Re: Spyrex - why?
Re: Gut - I don't think Gut is scum, but in case I die, I hope the town doesn't rule out the possibility that they defended Sunandmoon to convince others they are town. If Sunandmoon and Magna are both telling the truth, then convincing the town not to lynch Sunandmoon doesn't cost the scum much, as they would get a free town PR death from Magna. It may not be the more likely possibility, but it's a possibility.
I understand why it's terrible - because it evaluates the gamestate wrongly - but I don't know why it's scummy.In post 1780, Mastermind of Sin wrote:I don't even know where to start with this post.
Unvote, Vote: smargaret
LYNCHLYNCHLYNCH. I'll come back and explain why if there is actually someone who doesn't understand why that post was terrible.
Also, kanye's wow comments were tech.Just because a majority of a group of people decide it's okay doesn't mean it's not murder. - Cobblerfone-
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