Abarat: Days of Magic, Nights of War Mafia (Endgame)

[Tammy]

sup y'all!

I've only loosely followed along here and there; I'll try to be caught up with the thread over the next day or so.

But can someone answer a real quick question for me?

There were three kills night one but only one kill night two. Was there an explanation given for the three nightkills night one? That would be one extra, right? Did a vig claim one of them or anything?

[Tammy]

Awesome. I like candy.

Well you lynched the two scum reads I had. Oh wait, Shinori like exploded the day or something, right? Tierce was pretty obvscum. Hindu's town, Gamma's likely town, and peta's likely town. The jury is out on you though. You *look* town enough, but there's something in some of your posts that makes me wonder. I mean if it was just CES that'd be an easy read, but you're far more difficult <------- A joke by the way. I'm assuming I'm talking to Mina as I haven't gotten an overkill insta-vote. Although why are you calling my slot obvscum if you're agnostic on the slot?

I thought Matt looked pretty obvtown though. I've replaced into Matt's slot before and his attitude was pretty consistent with his attitude in Heroes of Comedy. We were also scum partners for a bit in Heterosexual Revolution and he behaved nowhere near the way he did in that game.

Agar is likely town also due to the amount of time that Tierce spent on him. Although, I'll look to see how she was with regards to Shinori. In my one experience with Tierce-Scum she avoided talking to or about her partners as much as she could and didn't give reads on them, so I would expect her focus on Agar to be not indicative of bussing.

pedit: Yes, I'm still online, nice of you to notice, you probably notice that I'm almost always online, especially when I'm working. I'm not afraid of anything. What makes you think I was sitting here awaiting someone to ask me questions or that I wouldn't answer them? Town or scum have you known me to avoid answering questions? So, I really don't get your point.

[Tammy]

Mina, my reads were as instantaneous as they could be, and that should be quite obvious. I took a break from working and answered your questions when I saw them; I'm not sitting here refreshing the page every five seconds.

Okay so, in Heroes of Comedy, Matt didn't post much but he did tell off MoI. He had a bit of aggressiveness but was also clearly looking for who the scum were even though he ended up getting fed up with MoI. I saw a bit of that here; he tends to be a bit emotionally reactive. (I can relate)

In Heterosexual Revolution, he was clearly looking to set people up. He was constantly twisting the words of people to make them look like scum. He was weirdly aggressive in an over-angry way. (Remember Arthur in his first scum game? The one he played in with CES? He kind of reminded me of that.) Like I was his partner and called him out, and he flipped his lid in such an outlandish way it was pretty obvious he was scum. He then tried to overjustify his aggressive play as if it was town just misunderstanding him for his blow outs. It was odd and it was awkward.

His play here wasn't like that. His frustration over his reads being crapped on was genuine here. The reaction test was a little odd, but I think he was just trying too hard. (Kind of reminds me of the stupid stunt Petyr tried in the last Westeros game.) I don't agree that anything can be learned from what he did, but meh. I didn't notice any of the over-aggressive anger he had when we were scum together; I got more the sense of frustration like he had in Heroes.

But, Mina, why did you ask me what I was afraid of? Do you legitimately think that I would be afraid of answering a question even though not much time had passed between the time that you asked me a question and you said I hadn't been quick about it? I mean, you bring up the last Westeros game in which we were both members of the opposing scum team, so you do happen to know my most current scum meta and you probably know my town meta better than anyone, but is my scum/town meta to delay or ignore questions asked of me? It's just a weird thing to question me about when it hadn't even been an hour yet. I could have answered anything I wanted and it wouldn't have mattered really; there's literally nothing for me to be afraid of.

[Tammy]

Hmm...

Oh first, Peta *lol* oh you.

Mina - I actually find it interesting that you felt I was nervous. You guys flashwagoned me the first time the day after my grandfather's funeral and after I'd spent another entire day with my family saying goodbye. I don't know that you could call my reaction

nervous

considering that I was feeling quite emotionally numb at that point and had sent a message to WJ saying that I didn't have the emotional energy to deal with it in the first place when I saw the wagon start and came quite close to just going to bed and letting it play out as it was. Your "seeing the light" on me wasn't as opaque as it could have been either. Yeah, y'all kept pushing and I had a bit of a breakdown, which wasn't hard to make happen after the weekend I had (which was a bit of good fortune for me game wise, which also was a quite lengthy message to WJ), and it's something I don't even know if I've learned how to fake yet and was part of Faraday the next day giving me a hard time for. I just don't think that it's a fair event to make assumptions of me being nervous by as I was forcing myself at that point to be a part of the game that night and any mood I had was skewed.

And hey! I did not hyperventilate once with BB during that last game. In fact, the last scum qt I hyperventilated in was Team Mafia so :tonguewag:

Yeah, Mina, I've replaced into a good number of games lately. And the majority of them have come with a large amount of immediate suspicion. I don't panic. And, in this situation, I have no reason to panic. Also, Mina, you may have called me obvscum but you forget you said just yesterday you were agnostic on my slot and gave Matt a lazy vote which you admitted wasn't going to do anything. Reaction tests don't work when you know they're a test.

And, no, my posts probably wouldn't be any different if I were scum here.

[Tammy]

To be honest, I don't think this discussion is really alignment-relevant, and your time would be better spent catching up. If you think my (admittedly heavy-handed) reaction test wouldn't have worked if you were scum, then, um, thanks for telling me?

That said, in retrospect, it was a bit callous for me to bring that up without taking into account what you were going through at the time. I'm sorry again about your grandfather, although words are kind of meaningless, and I'm impressed that you stuck out the game even in spite of all the RL pressure.

(Now I'm really not posting anymore. I'm sorry to anyone who has to catch up with my spamming tomorrow morning.

At least it's not a wall.

)

Thank you Mina, but it wasn't callous. It's not like I expect you to remember what was going on my RL and how it impacted my reaction in a mafia game a couple weeks ago.

Tierce was pretty obvscum. Hindu's town, Gamma's likely town, and peta's likely town.

reason behind these reads?

Hindu started being town in that post where he answered someone and crossed it all out and was all caps FUCK THAT. His recent discussion about his faith in his town reads read really genuine as well and reminds me of how he played in mafia behind the maiden.

Gamma is a little gut and meta. His voice reminds me of himself in mafia behind the maiden as well.

Peta's likely town for his early day one uncertainty and post concerning his ability to make up a read if he were scum. Also, Regfan had a strong town read on him, and though Regfan can be very wrong sometimes, he seems to be quite acquainted with peta's meta.

Tierce was pretty obvscum for a few reasons. (Although, a caveat - I tend to always read Tierce as scum) Anyway, she was active lurking and spent an inordinate amount of time putting off the game and posting to say she was doing other things and got oddly angry when called out for it and for posting in other games but not posting here. Tierce is extremely single minded in her belief that one post in one game without posting in a current game is the epitome of the scum tell. She is so dogmatic in this weird belief of hers that she doesn't even accept reasonable explanations from others when she's discovered it. So, for her to engage in the very practice she deems to be a scum tell and then become enraged when called out for it was odd. Furthermore, her offer to show proof of her busy activity is something scum often do. She probably was legitimately busy, but the need to show she wasn't lying about that demonstrated a guilty conscience that knew she was lying about something. Nothing she did came across very genuine at all.

[Tammy]

Mina - In what ways would you say that being in a hydra with CES has affected your attitude/approach to the game and how you interact with people?

[Tammy]

So? It may be arbitrary to you but it's not arbitrary to me if I think it will help me get a handle on my read on minimum.

Okay, we need to backtrack a second. Are you under the impression that I've actually read the thread? When I say loosely followed along here and there, I don't mean I've kept up with this thread every day. I read some of the posts of some people - mostly those who I have played with before - which has left me with a very general idea of what has happened and gave me few impressions of a few players.

So, when Mina asked me for my reads off the top of my head, she got reads from the people who's posts I had read some of and formed a basic impression of. Although I hadn't at that point read anything from Agar, and did have to go back to look up his name. My read on Agar came solely based on the focus Tierce gave him for the reasons I originally gave. Although I realized yesterday that that reasoning just clears him from being night aligned.

I didn't mention anyone else, because until yesterday when I actually sat down and started reading the game, I either didn't know who else was playing or hadn't read any of their posts. Or in the case of minimum, which I stated, hadn't formed a read on them.

[Tammy]

So? It may be arbitrary to you but it's not arbitrary to me if I think it will help me get a handle on my read on minimum.

It is arbitrary because it is a question about playstyle instead of in-game content, a question that can be answered the same as any alignment, whose perspective it comes from doesn't change that.

still trying to figure out what your motivation was for throwing those townreads down.

So? I will ask what questions I think will help me get a read on someone. You may not understand my question and that's fine, but it doesn't make it any less valuable to me and the way I read someone.

As far as my motivation for throwing some town reads down, I was answering a question:

sup y'all!

I've only loosely followed along here and there; I'll try to be caught up with the thread over the next day or so.

Awesome. This will be like candy.

Tammy, quick, if you've been following along here and there, then what are your reads off the top of your head?

[Tammy]

I'm still in day one and about halfway done, Mina. I'm heading out of town to see my family this weekend, but I should be able to finish reading and putting together my thoughts by Monday if not before.

I asked because you feel off to me and I can't quite place what it is that is bothering me. Some of it could be a product of you hydraing with CES or just hydraing period. I'm not sure why you told me that your playstyle has changed lately though. You and I have played together several times off site/here over the past few months, with the most recent being a couple weeks ago, so any shift in your playstyle wouldn't seem dramatic to me or need explanation. I don't know that I remember long lists of reads coming from you though. I suppose the lack of waffling could be part of what's troubling me But, I think it's more your tone. There's a certain underlying bite to some of your posts that is reminiscent of the game we just played where we were both evil. I thought your posts seemed a bit off when I was following along here and there and thought that once I put your posts into context it might alleviate some of my concern, but it hasn't. And well, I haven't even decided what to think about CES yet

(Tell CES I said pfft...or just explain which of my townreads is "naive" and why.)

[Tammy]

You're being subtle about it Mina, but you're still trying to get me to react to you and I'm not going to do it. You do realize that I could notice your tone being off before or after seeing my role pm and absolutely believe it either way, right? I'm not really sure your point for throwing that in there, especially when you admit that your voice has been somewhat different this game. It's like the other night when you asked me for my reads and when I didn't immediately respond, you asked me what I was afraid of. It was a silly thing to throw in there in both instances. In the first, you were trying to make it look like I was purposefully ignoring you because I didn't know how to respond though that wasn't the case at all. And in the second, you were subtly deflecting attention from my concern over your tone to redirect suspicion onto me.

[Tammy]

VOTE: minimum

[Tammy]

Cut the shit Mina. Stop assuming crap that wasn't even said or implied. If you want to know the order of events in how I read the thread ask. Because you're not even making sense. Did you miss the art where. I said I hadn't finished reading day one yet? I haven't even gotten to Tierce replacing in. Ifyou guys obvtown yourselves later then you do. I HAVENT GOTTEN TO THAT PART YET.

You do realize you're a Hydra right? I haven't gotten a good read on either of you to point I'm at. There's no lololl name dropping involved when I'm discussing how I'm trying to get a read on both of you. Are you seriously telling me that by page 22one of you have become obvtown so much that it's awful of me to dare to question you?

I really don't know what your problem is with this hole thing is or why you seem oddly affronted that I haven't assigned you obvtown status yet. Also Mina are you trying to suggest that I'm feigning my suspicion of you? Cause it certainly sounds like it. You are aware that since it's multfaction even if I were evil my suspicion would still be genuine. Also please tell me what you think I would gain by coming into a game under heavy suspicion and start questioning you? You know how to read me probably better thananyone. Wouldn't I be better off trying to get on your good side if I were evil?

Also did you really admit to me that your voice was different, rush to read your ISO, and then tell me no your voice isn't different? Mina?

Oh and the vote without reason wasn't a tactic. I'm driving right now

[Tammy]

And just to clear the confusion Mina. As I said to anxiety I read some if some people's posts when I was very loosely following along. I got a few impressions from that minimal reading. I replaced in and started reading the thread in full. I haven't isod anyone. I had doubts about your alignment before rweplacing in and thought what had been bothering me would become clear when I got the context of reading the thread.

[Tammy]

VOTE: seraphim

[Tammy]

Mina don't be stupid. You can't omgus when you voted me first. I know I'm not imagining this difference in your tone Mina. I just know I'm not.

[Tammy]

Mina while you're responding be sure to answer why it's such a big deal that I didn't auto-obvtown you. I didn't even say you were scum and youre acting like it's horrible that I dared to question you. You felt off when I skimmed. I started reading the thread and by page 20 you still felt off. I figure well I'm not arrogant enough to think that I can accurately read her Hydra partner this soon but I should have a better read of Mina. So I ask you a couple questions. You still feel off

[Tammy]

Mina - I've been trying to figure out what's been bothering me about your reaction to my questions and I think I have it figured it out.

First don't tell me to hush or catch up with thread again. You know I'm going to read the thread, so it's unnecessary, and you know I'm not just going to do what I'm told, so it serves no purpose other than to annoy me. It's little things like this that make me read you as off as it's not consistent at all with any experiences I've had with you as an innocent.

Your reaction makes no sense from an innocent mindset. I feel like if you were innocent you would be more inclined to understand that I had reservations about you and was asking questions to try to determine it. I think it was obvious from the questions I asked that I hadn't jumped to conclusions on your alignment but that I had doubts, and considering the fact that we both finished playing a game where we were both evil it shouldn't be a surprise that I might be a bit tentative about you especially when you seem off. You admitted that there were differences, so your "surprise" over me not seeing your obvtownnesss makes no sense whatsoever.

You make it worse when you of all people ridicule me for not being able to get a read on someone who is very difficult to read. When someone is in a hydra and you can't read one person you look to the other head. It's why in GvE people kept asking faraday to get you to post. You're reading off to me, and I don't have a read on your other head. Your post in which you give me a hard time for not recognizing the obvtownn nature of the both of you makes no sense from innocent Mina. It was purposefully designed to make me look bad for not reading someone "correctly" and for someone who typically second-guesses herself throughout entire games, this shouldn't be surprising.

Reading yourself to see if you see what I see is being weirdly self-conscious about your appearance. Your defense of ces was weird too considering all I said was that I didn't know what to think. You know because you asked that I hadn't made it through day one yet, so the interaction that you're talking about I haven't even gotten to. The way you approached that makes no sense either. Why didn't you ask me what I thought about that interaction? Seems like that would be what you would do if you were trying to actually determine my thought process. Instead you told me what I'm supposed to think about an interaction I haven't even read yet.

Everything just feels off Mina. I asked the question about the hydra because I was allowing for the possibility that working in a hydra was a plausible reason for you not really seeming yourself, and I'll wait until I finish reading the thread before I determine whether or not I think you're evil here, but you certainly seem like it.

[Tammy]

Okay, finished. I'll have more thoughts and reads up tomorrow when I can Iso a few people and sleep, but just a few random thoughts upon finishing the thread.

4nx - there is no tunneling preemptive or otherwise. I will engage in whatever conversation I have to to get a read on someone. Quilford's a near non entity, which is disturbing. The only things I can remember of him were entering with a stupid fake list that I'd be willing to instavote him for if I hadn't seen him do a similar thing as town. His recent vote on agar was terrible, and I'll have to double. Check when I read the dead to look for interactions but it seems the night team had a thing for going after agar, which gives me concern about quilford. Leaning town on red coyote.

Did anyone make any determinations on who llamarble may have hidden behind? I don't think it was mentioned on thread, and I suck at finding codes and crumbs. Was it mentioned and I missed it?

I'll have more to say about the 1 in 3 tomorrow after I sleep, but I'm finding it a little odd that out of the three of us, only one is roled. I don't know what to make of that.

Minimum - If I end up being the play for today, would you be willing to hammer me?

It's late I need sleep...tomorrow.

[Tammy]

Okay so, this is going to be a partial catch up post. It's getting late, I'm tired, I'll finish the rest tomorrow.

Also, I'm going to hold off giving my thoughts on the 1-3 until tomorrow. There seem to be some interesting conversations developing about it right now and there's something that is bothering me about the situation that I can't quite place and want to think on it for another day. Also, it's a very weird place to be in considering I'm one of the 1-3, so no matter what I say about it, it feels really self-serving.

-------------------

Seraphim - Good candidate for either night or commexo. His day one play was to go after the easy targets in Llamarble and Oafe and defended his votes to minimum. Immediately on day two he rushed to do relational analysis between Staeg and the 3 mentioned by MoI as well as UT. Seraphim concluded from his relational analysis with UT that Tierce couldn't be scum. It's rather weird that he would choose only UT from outside of the 3 to do this on, especially in defense of Tierce when she did in fact flip scum with Staeg. He told Tierce Shinori was town, but then after he suicided immediately voted Tierce along with everyone else. He apparently is defending himself that he's just a bad player, which doesn't make sense, bad players can be scum too. What makes this even stranger is that he didn't do relational analysis on day 3 when two more scum had flipped, so what was his purpose for doing it on day 2?

Staeg had minimal contact with Seraphim and UT had none at all. Shinori originally thought Seraphim was scum but then changed his mind to him being town and Tierce listed him as someone she would be willing to vote and put on her scum list with Shinori. I was apparently wrong about Tierce not calling her scum partners scum when I gave a town read to Agar because of it after her interactions and read on Shinori, so the placement of Seraphim next to Shinori raises alarms. (Although, I still think Agar is town from Tierce's push on him.)

Overall he's had very little engagement with the game and near sheeped people as he floats through the game making him fit the profile of either night or commexo. And then there's gems like this:

hopefully tomorrow I will be able to outline more specific reasons for why I dislike Tammy's posting. Yes, there are reasons behind it.

Minimum - If I end up being the play for today, would you be willing to hammer me?

This specifically really rubbed me the wrong way. It feels incredibly manipulate and slimy. Bleah.
bleah.

LOLSCUMPOSTING...If you have reasons, should be able to give a *reason* off the top of your head. It shouldn't hopefully be able to come to you tomorrow, since you are actually voting today and dislike my posting

today

. From what I can tell, you disliked me originally for *gasp* suspecting minimum who you say is obvtown, which reeks of a strange type of buddying. Minimum is right in that 4nx's suspicion of me feels genuine, and that's because he had already expressed a good amount of suspicion on my slot before I replaced in. He had specifically wanted Matt to explain some town reads, so it makes perfect sense that he would want me to explain mine and be wondering about my motivation.

I'd like for you to tell me what you think I'm manipulating minimum into doing with that post? Do you think I'm manipulating them into hammering me with that post? Do you think I thought I'd be able to get it with that post?

---------

Minimum - Most likely not night but very likely to be commexo. I know that Mina's probably going to get pissed again because how dare I not assign obvtown status, but sorry, not going to be compliant just because you want to lynch me. I think that I might not have continued to be suspicious if our conversation had stopped before Post 1255. I probably would have just taken it at face value that the voice difference I was noticing was due to hydra play and not necessarily something alignment dependent. However, it got pressed on in a weird way, and now I keep looking at our first interaction when I replaced in. Mina asked me for my reads and exactly 40 minutes later claimed that I was still online and implied I was afraid to answer her. Being logged into AIM means nothing more than the computer being on and connected to the internet, it in no way, shape or form means that someone is actually reading and ignoring a thread. It was a strange thing to claim in the thread, something which if it was intended to goad me into answering more quickly doesn't make sense in light of her claim that I hyperventilate in scum qts. Now, this is especially strange because I've never "hyperventilated" over answering someone's questions or giving reads when scum. I've freaked out about decisions to make or just plain being scum, but I haven't even done that in a while, so this statement makes no sense either other than to try to paint someone else as looking bad, which there's no reason to do when you are innocent.

I made a post of my concerns about her reaction and how they don't seem to come from an innocent mindset in Post 1271 and I'm not going to repeat that, but those thoughts still stand.

She wondered why I hadn't realized they were both independently obvtown, and I've been through their iso about 5 times trying to make up my mind on their alignment. Interestingly enough the CES head of the hydra reads far more town than the Mina head. It's every time she posts that I start to doubt their alignment. I doubt very very seriously they are night. The push on Tierce from their end

could

have been a bus for town cred but I seriously doubt it. Tierce's frustration with CES/Mina read too genuinely for that. The fact that she kept requesting for Mina to be put on the phone so that she could get a read on them and to give her reasons for why they were voting her when Mina had already posted her reasons for why she found UT scum doesn't read like partner interaction at all.

If they are scum here, they are commexo. There are a couple things in general that bother me. Mina told me the other night that she was worried if they got killed, their UT information from night one wouldn't be out there. This is fine in theory, but it doesn't make sense in the context of their play. If they were worried about being killed, and wanted to make sure that town won, why are they playing what in Mina's words is "closed play"? Why are they keeping their cards close to their chest? This makes no sense to me from a town perspective. I don't like the amount of time spent on determining exactly what Shmugen's role does. It didn't read as someone trying to finalize a read on someone or to determine if it's a fake claim. I find it odd that they are supposed to present a unified front, but the second that CES goes on vacation, Mina starts to instill doubts about Flash. She even makes a joke about how basically he was the only thing holding her back. I'm not quite sure why this is rubbing me the wrong way, but it is. Their overall scumhunting has been a bit dull in a sense as well.

------------------

I was hoping to be able to give my read on a couple more people tonight but that will wait until tomorrow. It's late and I need sleep.

My town reads of Hindu and Gamma still stand.

4nx - I'm not going to go into more depth about my town read on Hindu. His entire attitude reads town to me. If you have a scum read on him and you want to discuss it further, I'll be glad to talk to you about it. If there's something specific you want me to look at, I'll be happy to do that too, but he's a strong town read for me regardless.

[Tammy]

I'll have more to say about the 1 in 3 tomorrow after I sleep, but I'm finding it a little odd that out of the three of us, only one is roled. I don't know what to make of that.

do you mind role claiming then, since you could very well be lynched today?

in a little bit I want to go over some things about tammy and why bella is definitely town.

I'm confused. Do you not read the thread? I'm wondering this in part because our previous conversation and in part because of this question.

You wanted to know why I gave the reads I did and in my reply I mentioned that Mina had asked me for my reads when I replaced in. Then you said you still didn't understand my motivation for giving my reads. I had to point out again that I was answering a direct question so there was no motivation behind it. I'm really not following on what could be some underhanded thing in saying who I thought was town in the first place.

And now you're asking for my role claim as if there hadn't already been a claim and a discussion about it. I am, like Matt said, Henry Murkitt a ghost. I am vanilla squared...I started out that way and became mod confirmed vanilla yesterday.

[Tammy]

I'll have more to say about the 1 in 3 tomorrow after I sleep, but I'm finding it a little odd that out of the three of us, only one is roled. I don't know what to make of that.

do you mind role claiming then, since you could very well be lynched today?

in a little bit I want to go over some things about tammy and why bella is definitely town.

I'm confused. Do you not read the thread? I'm wondering this in part because our previous conversation and in part because of this question.

wanted to see if you would claim something different cause that post seemed to indicate you weren't aware that mattp had claimed, given peta had claimed not to long ago, guess that was just wishful thinking.

Anyway you can clearly see bella trying to figure out who is scum and town throughout her posts, particularly when it comes to the 1in3. First she leans toward the claim being legitimate, then she reaches the conclusion that peta is town, follwed by her suspecting chesskid, and finally placing her vote on mattp and being adamant that we should lynch someone within the group. I don't see scum putting that much effort into finding who is scum in that group, basically making her lynch more likely.

Compare that to Tammy who is trying to push the lynch away from the 1in3 and holding off on taking a stance on moi or bella.
And chesskid:

Tl;dr it's a stupid gambit and I don't want the next 20 pages of this thread to be about it so just abort now kthx

whose reaction was to steer conversation away from it.

Then there is Mattp who was confident that moi was telling the truth, that peta was scum, yet showed some uncertainty towards bella being scum when PoE should make that an easy read.

Hmm...interesting. There is no I'm trying to steer a lynch anywhere. I have absolutely no clout in this game to even try. I'm dying today, most likely. That became quite clear to me soon after I replaced in, hence my only objective right now is to get my reads out there to try to help town.

The one in three thing is extremely awkward as I'm a part of it. I have some doubts about it based on what seems to be inconsistency in the set up. Mgna has stated that one out of three *players* is scum and that seems off. Gamma has indicated a partial informed status but he was given a character name that is confirmed town and in the game, not the players name. Why wouldn't the same go for other informed town roles? The players name instead of character name information seems odd.

But that would mean that magna is lying, and I don't know what to thik about that which is why I said I wanted to hold off as flash was starting a conversation with him about it.

If magna's not lying, then I have to say which one of the three is scum, except I've already said I think PETA is town...and his role making him mod confirmed and part of the three is also strange as it doesnt make sense to have one mod confirmed person in the one in three with two vanillas as that would take the likelihood from33% to 50% and I would have to say that Bella is scum, which is something that I don't feel confident in.

Therefore I will let this situation play out and scum hunt as normal...as I said anything I say about it is incredibly self-serving and is something I'm trying to wrap my head around because there are things that don't feel right.

Upon replacing Tammy focuses solely on attacking a hydra, even when she switches her vote to seraphim there is no questioning or pressure geared with the switch, instead tammy continues to focus on mina. Only when I drop the word 'tunnel' does she start branching out to others.

Her arguments about seraphim and mina are offbase and consistent with my experience of scum trying to make someone else look scummy rather than town trying to figure out who is scum.

Hmm..even more interesting. You can congratulate yourself all you want, but one there was no tunnel involved and two I don't change tactics to suit anyone in a game. Upon replacing I gave a few town reads before I did anything else; you know this because it bothered you for some reason.

What about my arguments are off base?

[Tammy]

@4nx - I'm not going to get into a play style debate with you. As I said before, I will engage in whatever conversations I have to in order to determine alignment.

You said you couldn't understand my motivations for dropping those town reads, which implied ou thought that you were bothered by the fact that I did it.

Not following your point on what I guess is you implying hypocrisy on my pert. Sera not being able to give an answer or two for why he's voting me and saying hopefully tomorrow is a bit different than me saying I will give more reads tomorrow. It was 5am my time and going through Isos and looking at interactns takes time. I haven't brushed off anyone. In fact I answered you about quilford and is the next person I will be giving a read on when I start working on them later this evening. I made it quite clear that I haven't finished my reads, so I'm not following on your question about why I haven't analyzed everyone yet.

Never attacked Mina for trying to get me to react. I told her I wasn't going to give her what she wanted when she kept implying I was being suspicious. Also didn't attack Mina for admitting to play style change. It was strange that she answered my question that way and I said why. You should retread that. Didn't attack Mina for thinking I should read her as town, thought it was odd that she was ridiculing me for not reading them as town...there's a difference. And, did you seriously write attack Mina for towncred meta reasons???

So basically what I'm getting from this is that minimum has a right to attack me and be suspicious of me, but I'm not allowed to be suspicious of them and ask the questions I feel I need to in order to determine their alignment. Confirmation bias is a bitch.

[Tammy]

Nope! Saying will give *reasons* tomorrow, hopefully, implies there are no reasons now and he's got to make some up. From what I gathered, he was suspecting me for suspecting minimum, and that read as a strange type of buddying to me. His contributions to the game only intensified my suspicion.

Nope again! I typically don't buddy up as scum for one. And, casting false suspicion which is what it seems you and minimum were implying, would be insanely stupid for me to do in Mina's case. When someone knows how to read you really well and is suspicious of you, you don't behave in a way that would make them more suspicious of you. ie you wouldn't make fake attacks as it would be easier for it to be read that way. My suspicion of minimum is 100% genuine, which should be evident in the questions I asked.

Hmmm...you are implying I'm not being understanding. I am. There's no way I couldn't be understanding. I'm coming into a game with heavy suspicion on me already and am more than likely not living past this day. I would be an idiot to think that it would go away just because I replaced in. I don't have a problem with her doubts about me or her suspicions. I thought that the way she went about a couple of things was suspect, but her being suspicious of me or trying to determine my alignment is something that is completely understandable.

[Tammy]

KILL. QUILFORD. WITH. FIRE. AND. TAMMY.

FOR FUCKS SAKE.

Hey Agar...why do you have two and only two suspects when there are three scum out there?

[Tammy]

Oh and Shmugen's town to by the way...though that should be pretty obvious to everyone.

[Tammy]

KILL. QUILFORD. WITH. FIRE. AND. TAMMY.

FOR FUCKS SAKE.

Hey Agar...why do you have two and only two suspects when there are three scum out there?

Because people are fucking dense right now.

I don't follow. People being dense is keeping you from having the appropriate number of suspects?

[Tammy]

The only thing you keep mentioning though is the two of us. That doesn't indicate you have other suspects; it indicates you have exactly two.

[Tammy]

Yes, it does. Have you ever noticed that when there is more than one faction, someone who belongs to one faction always tends to be looking for the other team only? So, there are two night left and one commexo. The people who are only searching for night or are only searching for commexo have a good chance of belonging to the opposite faction. I don't necessarily believe this in Agar's case because I'm reading him as town and don't think he fits the profile for commexo, but it still peaks my suspicion when I see people doing it.

[Tammy]

Quilford - Has a good chance to be either night or commexo. I know that Magna thinks it's unlikely due to wagon analysis, but I don't pay attention to something like that and think that scum teams can behave in erratic ways that will throw people off. They don't always meet expectations for how they will act concerning wagons. The only thing that makes me hesitate on Quilford being night is it seems like he went into bus mode immediately upon replacing in if that's the case. He immediately went after Shinori and Staeg, but he seemed to avoid voting for Tierce. I don't know what to make of that. He had a strange reaction to minimum talking about commexo's likelihood of killing OaFE though as well. He's gone after Agar, which Tierce did as well, which makes me especially suspicious of Quilford. However, his iso's not that long and there's really nothing particularly damning in it. However, by his activity and the positions he's taken he fits the profile of either scum faction.

Red Coyote - Doubt very seriously he's night based on Post 188 as I don't seem him telling his partner that he's a great admirer of his. Actually, his whole iso reads town to me; I don't know why MoI reads him as scum. If he is scum, he's commexo, but I think that's a very slight chance.

Again, Agar - is most likely not night due to Tierce's push on him and Shinori went after him as well. He's raising small alarm bells with his consistent two suspects only which could be indicative of commexo; however, he doesn't actually fit the profile of a serial killer, so I don't think he's commexo either.

I have a headache, I'll finish up my reads tomorrow.

[Tammy]

welp spelling is key

[Tammy]

fwiw, I believe Agar's claim as i have had a pretty decent town read on him..

@Agar , would you be willing to let Tammy hammer Quil?
The reason i ask is that my top scum/Commexo picks fall under Bella, MOI, and Quil...and i'd prefer to lynch one of them in that group...

MattP was null for me, and although Tammy's interaction with Minimum seems a bit odd, i don't have a strong scum read on her...

@Tammy, would you be willing to hammer Quil?

Yes, I would hammer, but as I'm l2 and he's agreed to hammer me I don't think this answer matters anymore. Either way, he'll be dead tomorrow.

[Tammy]

@mod - not that this actually matters but I'll be v/la through Monday

I know it's unnecessary, but I will check in. Flash raises a good point; if quilford doesn't hammer whoever is last on my wagon will die when I do.

[Tammy]

How is that? He hammers me and dies. I hammer hi he dies. Either way he's dead tomorrow.

[Tammy]

Fine.

VOTE: quilford

Good luck y'all.

[Tammy]

@hindu- I got his role PM with no informed ability that he claimed he had and assumed that he wasn't this fucking awful of a player, and was therefore scum.

Vote: Minimum

I'm actually pretty confident in this. I get the logic behind wanting to kill the 1-in-3 at the time over quil but actually pushing for it over confirmed scum feels so wrong to me. Also the "realization" with Magna the day we lynched quilford and then going back to bella after that feels really off to me.

The only other person I think I'd be alright with lynching today is Seraphim.

I'm not over my Minimum suspicions, but can you expand on this? Even though she was suggesting going after Bella and me in that post, it was something that made me feel a bit better about them. It looked to me like she was trying to figure out the best possible way to use the lynching mechanic along with the MoI 1-in-3 crap. I don't know what was suspicious about that.

Unlike me, he didn't think MoI was capable of holding up a gambit to the very end. Also, half the game joined him in that thought.

Look at it this way. If it was a fakeclaim and he didn't see any Informed ability, then MoI was lying scum and would flip that way. If it wasn't, then MoI was retardedly-gambiting town that not many people in this game thought would be a possible option. Thus, he concluded it was a fakeclaim.

That's not the point I'm making. I was talking about his Shmugen stuff.

It's a good point about the Shmugen claim, but I don't think that Shmugen is fake claiming here. His attitude night 3 read genuine to me as he was trying to figure out a way to keep peta safe and asking who he should redirect. I can't see him fake claiming and at the same time going "Guys, Is there someone I should redirect?" That's just asking for trouble.

Okay, never mind. I didn't pay attention to the line underneath petapan's flip--just assumed he'd lied about ever being BP because he was dead. I apologize to petapan--I should have realized that only VIs on MoI's level would lie for no good reason. I'm not sure why he said he was a jailkeeper, though.

Ignore what I said before. If he's actually BP, then that means he probably did block the kill. So unfortunately, all that means is:

1) At most one of Red and Seraphim can be scum if both Scattamuns protected the same people.

2) Tammy is probably scum if Mrs. Scattamun blocked Tammy and NOT Quilford.

I'd say Mrs. Scattamun comes forward only if Tammy and NOT Quilford was blocked N2...but otherwise, should keep his mouth shut (but hypoclaims if she also targeted Seraphim and Red Coyote.

I'd have to go back and check but he fudged about his role a little. He said he was a jailkeeper who was limited shot for I can't remember what reason. He said that protecting other people cost him energy or something, which he was going to use to save Regfan/Fate. I'm assuming he did that on night one, which means he wouldn't have been able to use it on night two if it was non-consecutive.

It's likely he used it on night 3, so that is one more possible reason for the lack of two night kills on night 3. However, I can't imagine why someone would try to kill peta on night 3. It wasn't until day 4 that MoI's gambit was found out, and before then he was trying to discredit peta, so that doesn't seem likely.

I agree Mrs. Scattamun should keep quiet unless they have information that would help though.

[Tammy]

Did I not say, DID I NOT SAY THAT THERE WERE TOO MANY SHENANIGANS?

I think the best road to a scumlynch today is the Scattamun info

You can make yourself bp, right? What nights did you do that?

[Tammy]

If that were the case wouldn't he have flipped with an informed role?

Sorry.

[Tammy]

No, flash, I have no idea what the transcendent talk is about. The only thing I can think of is alignment. That's obviously excluded otherwise Gamma would have just known that MoI was a liar, but wouldn't have believed he was a scum liar.

[Tammy]

My earlier read of Seraphim stands. Still think he makes sense for either night or commexo.

VOTE: Seraphim

Minimum - Why Red Coyote over Seraphim? He reads town to me.

[Tammy]

And can Flash please fill us in on the trasendent stuff?

[Tammy]

Minimum - Why Red Coyote over Seraphim? He reads town to me.

[Tammy]

Exactly, shmugen and minimum has a point, which is why I don't think the possible massclaim someone brought up should happen. We have two confirmed roles that are unknown right now. Mrs. Scattamon and fonnegan need to sty that way so their chances of survival are higher.

[Tammy]

Red Coyote - What would lead you to believe that? Did you even read peta's posts from day four? Since he died night four, he would have had to block someone, potentially, night three. Here are his posts from day four:

VOTE: bella

yeah.

Vote: MagnaofIllusion

This is non-negotiable.

???

i totally missed what changed that around at the end of yesterday, all i know is it's not tammy

s'autoloss for night team, anyway

VOTE: MoI

also btw ftr, my whole request to not be targeted was because i wasn't telling people the whole story: see, i only have an X-shot ability, because i'm old and drained by the council of the mind existing, and it strains me to abduct someone. but, i still have the power to get out and stay safe - or, in other terms, i'm bulletproof, so long as i don't drain all my power. i was planning on blowing my uses protecting the two-in-one but scum GOOFED and suicided, not realizing that by killing the two-headed clear they would be replaced with AN UNKILLABLE CLEAR. so yeah i'm here i'm clear get used to it

the reason i'm outing this is because it's likely i blocked a kill last night so i don't want the other half of the communal roleblocker to out even though i have an inkling of who they might be anyway

tammy being quilford's buddy would imply quilford is bad enough to put himself into auto-loss by not hammering his buddy

So, peta suggests he could be the reason why a kill was blocked night three but doesn't come right out and say who he blocked, but expresses no suspicion of me whatsoever. peta's not an idiot; he knows that whoever he abducted was saved from a kill or blocked from making a kill, and I can't see him twice defending me if he thought for a second he blocked me from making a kill.

[Tammy]

I'm about to go to bed, but I should have time in the morning to field questions and perhaps I'll have an answer from Hito.

A very good reason to not kill me is: I have the Key.

If you're telling the truth, why did you out this? When Hindu explicitly said if you have the key to keep quiet?

------------

Flash - I think Seraphim is a good match for night or commexo.

[Tammy]

eh i really should reread this game. kind of feeling swamped because new job+I managed to get into 4 mafia games at the same time like an idiot, but I will make someone a deal.

i will reread through this whole silly game but in exchange you will go through the isos of minimum, seraphim, schmugen, and a player of your choice and give actual godamn details on why you think each is town or scum. if you accept i probably can't do this RIGHT away but will set a self-imposed deadline of saturday night, and can provide details of a read on any player that night as long as you ask before like 10pmish.

also if you're one of the 3 people i listed you can do it too and ignore yourself for even less work.
APPLY TODAY

Post 1311 of mine are my reads of seraphim and minimum. The only things that have changed is that I'm a little less confident in both of them being scum as I was when I posted them as they've both had some really genuine sounding posts since then.

No matter what schmugen's iso looks like, he's most likely town due to the way he claimed and his whole "guys can I do something with my role, who should I redirect, peta I can keep you safe let me redirect you, etc." I do not see this as being a fake claim at all as I still think it would be asking for trouble. The way it came across was way too natural and read intensely town.

________________

I'll try to do another iso soon but probably won't have time to do much else though this weekend. It's my birthday weekend; I have friends coming to visit me and I'm going to be trashed and for some reason they think it's rude for me to play mafia instead of pay attention to them

[Tammy]

@mod - v/la through the weekend for the holiday and bday shenanigans

[Tammy]

Minimum: Town. Other than the heaps of anger at MoI, I see pro-town play all over this ISO. Relation wise, I don't see Night-Minimum going after Tierce with the passion we saw.

I agree with you that they're not night for a similar reason as you. Though I think that Minimum would bus Tierce strongly if they were partners (at least the CES head anyway...I don't know about Mina) HOWEVER if you look at Tierce's response to their votes and suspicions, I seriously doubt that was bussing. They're still a commexo suspect of mine, but I'd be absolutely shocked if they ended up being night just because of how Tierce responded to them.

[Tammy]

Flash: Scum(?). There are a lot of posts here that are leading, taunting questions, such as those surrounding Gamma's claim. Giving it a reread I don't see a lot here that I like other than the insistence that Minimum is town.

What do you think of Minimum's town read on them?

[Tammy]

I want to lynch RedCoyote but given the activity and 6 to lynch, I don't think that's feasible right now. I'll probably voting Seraphim then; he makes little sense as Night but I can't rule him out as SK (you don't happen to have a completed game as SK, do you, Seraphim?)

Why Red Coyote over Serpahim? With the exception of him trying to paint peta as abducting me and disregarding what he said after the day of his hypo-abduction, I've been reading Red Coyote as pretty town. I think that Seraphim makes more sense for night than he does though.

[Tammy]

2 potential town BPs would explain the Commexo win condition:

You are Commexo aligned. You win when there are three or fewer players alive, you are one of those players, and it is currently a Session. (If four players are alive, and one is lynched, you will win - the win condition "checks" after the lynch occurs but before a Recess is called.) Additionally, the check for this win condition occurs before the checks for the Day/Night win conditions. Please confirm by responding to this PM with your role name.

And the combination of non-consecutive + petapan's actual role would normally guarantee he gets nightkilled anyway, I think.

I really need to start reading the rules of games. So, Commexo wins before the traditional lylo, right?

[Tammy]

Tammy, why have you done nothing today, though? It feels like you've never actually caught up with the thread.

This is unfair and inaccurate, and not the first time you've erroneously claimed I'm not doing enough. I caught up with the thread within days after replacing in and started giving as many reads as I could before I went on vacation believing I was going to die the day I replaced in. I've interacted with people ever since. There just isn't a whole lot to do on thread today I feel; hopefully whatever information we get from the flip and night will help tomorrow. Not posting a lot =/= doing nothing.

I am voting for the person who I've had a scum read on since replacing in (and reading through quilford didn't change this); the one that I think is the best chance to be either night or commexo. Some of his recent posts do sound genuine, I'll admit, but I've got some decent town reads and not a whole lot of suspects left. I've asked your slot three times for why you'd prefer Red Coyote over Seraphim and Gamma asked it too after I asked once. The only response was basically that it was pointless to give your read if you weren't going to change Gamma's mind. Since I'm also reading Red Coyote as town - and think he makes no sense as night so would only have the slightest chance of being commexo anyway - I guess that applies to me too, which is frustrating. When have I ever refused to listen to someone else's read - okay once or twice but I've learned from those mistakes I hope. (As I said the only thing that has bothered me is his trying to claim that I was abducted by peta while ignoring what peta said about me the day after the hypo-abduction, but this isn't nearly enough for me to retract my town read on him.) I would like that read though as much to help me round out my read on Red Coyote as to help me round out my read on you.

Do you want me to tell you that my last remaining suspects are in the pool of those who could also be the finnegan guy (with an outside chance of bella)? But that I think it's more important to keep the finnegan person safe and unclaimed than to push on the wrong person and effect a claim if I think the person I'm voting for at the moment has a really good chance to flip night/commexo and slow down the night kills so this wouldn't matter as much?

Do you want me to tell you that ever since I realized the commexo win condition yesterday, I've been contemplating the utility of lynching shmugen even though I have a pretty solid town read of him and feel awful for even thinking about it? In spite of some of his sloppy play today, I still think shmugen's town for reasons stated before. But, I worry that if we don't lynch properly and shmugen is alive with commexo in lylo, town will lose because his role and play will be exploited. However, I also think this is an awful plan at the same time and would rather focus on lynching the people I believe are most likely to fit night/commexo, which I'm doing.

So, no I'm not infecting the thread with my rambling thoughts especially when I keep coming to the same conclusion, but that doesn't mean I'm not doing anything. It just means there are some things I don't want to address or push today, especially when I think one question will be answered with my vote and the others can wait for tomorrow.

[Tammy]

Bella - Can you explain what changed for you for Seraphim between the first post and the second post. Do you typically base scum reads on wagon analysis?

Bella, can you explain your town reads on Seraphim, sword_of_omens, and AGar?

Seraphim: His analysis of Stag's interactions (or lack thereof) with the 1 in 3 and the UT/Tierce slot committed him too strongly to "Tierce is not a Stag buddy" for scum who knows that Tierce is Stag's scumbuddy, and making that solid a statement only to turn around and vote her later seems really unscummy - if he was open to voting her, I think scum-Seraphim would have been a bit more weasely and not made himself look quite such a hypocrite. In addition, he's presented cases and generally appears to be trying to find scum. Also:

@Seraphim, I think the fully worked out fake claims part of the set-up makes that type of consideration fairly null.

The fake claims are not "full" if I remember correctly.

Nachomamma's plan has merit but I'll leave you guys to debate that because...

Mod: V/LA until Friday

This is a post I think is far more likely to be made by town than scum. Scum will have seen the fakeclaims they are given, and would know that they are full role PMs, as stated in the set-up post, whereas town players would only know this from reading the set-up post fully. I think it is unlikely that scum, having seen the fake claims, would assume that the town would be lead to believe that they weren't full fake claims. I do acknowledge that there's a chance that there's something wrong with him and he's managed to draw a conclusion in the face of evidence to the contrary, but i think it's quite remote.

AGar: He's playing consistently with AGar town that I've played with. He's very firm with his opinions in a way that scum generally aren't 'cause it costs them too much flexibility, his willingness to say "lynch me instead of X" and an attitude of being unconcerned about being lynched at a point where Night have lost more than half their number, he's been willing to challenge people to justify their support of cases he disagrees with and just generally seems to be trying to find scum and kill it.

I do admit the fact that he called out MoI for his douchebaggery gives him bonus points, though.

sword_of_omens: Admittedly, this is the weakest read I'm willing to go out on a limb to state, but honestly, it's a combination of gut and the way he reacted to the Tidal Jim thing.I'm open to having my mind changed,though.

And why don't you have any scumreads outside MoI and Matt?

Because the way I'm reading the game, one of those two is definitely scum by a process of elimination, whereas I'm really struggling to pick up on any outright scummy reads on other people. I like to have a certain level of confidence in reads before I state them and I tend to equivocate on them when I have them, far moreso as town than scum.

[/quote]

(Note: I've changed the names of people who've been lynched to the current or final holder of the slot for ease of reference)

Day One Lynch:

(12)

Staeg:

Strain

The Two In One, 4nxi3ty, petapan

,

Quilford

,

MagnaOfIllusion

, Tammy, Shmugen,

Hinduragi

,

AGar

,

Shinori

, Gammagooey
(5)

petapan:

Strain

,

Strain

,

Strain

,

OnceandForEver

, RedCoyote
(3)

Llamarble:

Strain

,

Seraphim

,

Tierce

(3)

Tierce:

Flash,

Staeg

, Minimum
(3)

Fate:

Strain

,

Strain

,

Strain

(3)

Hinduragi:

Strain

,

Strain

,

Llamarble

(1)

OnceAndForEver:

Nachomamma8

(2)

MagnaOfIlluision:

Strain

, Bella
(2)

Regfan:

Strain

,

Strain

(1)

Tammy:

Strain

(1)

Bella:

sword_of_omens
(1)

Flash:

Nuwen

Day Two Lynch:

(9)

Tierce:

Minimum,

Hinduragi

, RedCoyote,

Nuwen, MagnaOfIllusion

, Flash, Shmugen,

Gammagooey

, Tammy
(2)

Quilford:

4nxi3ty, petapan

(1)

Nuwen:

Tierce

(1)

Tammy:

Bella

(4)

Not Voting:

AGar

,

Quilford

, sword_of_omens,

Seraphim

Day Three Lynch:

(8)

Quilford:

sword_of_omens, Tammy,

Hinduragi

, Bella,

Gammagooey

,

4nxi3ty

, Shmugen,

MagnaOfIllusion

(4)

Tammy:

Seraphim

, RedCoyote,

petapan, AGar

(1)

MagnaOfIllusion:

Flash
(1)

AGar:

Quilford

(1)

Bella:

Minimum

Day Four Lynch:

(7)

MagnaOfIllusion:

Minimum, Flash,

petapan

,

Gammagooey

, Bella,

Hinduragi

, RedCoyote
(1)

Bella:

MagnaOfIllusion

(1)

Tammy:

4nxi3ty

(4)

Not Voting:

sword_of_omens, Tammy, Shmugen,

Seraphim

So, I started off looking at the wagons to see if there was anything to glean from them given that we have four dead scum flips and plenty of information. Two things stood out to me. The first is

Seraphim's

noticable position off-wagon for every single lynch that has gone through. He's only placed one vote on any of the scum that have flipped thus far - a vote on Tierce that he threw on when her lynch seemed inevitable - after the vote count reset following Shinori's suicide kill, he put her at L-1 following the rush of votes going back onto her. When the quicklynch he seemed to expect didn't happen, he jumped off her wagon and moved across to petapan, after making a pretty bizarre post about a possible stupid gambit:

Conspiracy theory: peta-scum has Shinori kill self off in order to protect Tierce-scum and deflect to me, because I was the only person who openly defended Shinori.

This is pushing me towards the possibility that Seraphim is the last Night player in the game.

The other is that

Hinduragi

and

Gammagooey

have been on every single lynch wagon thusfar. I'd call that a very mild Commexo tell - and given that Hindu was one of the people who shot down AGar's talk of Commexo hunting on day two, there's something there I'd like to look at further, particularly since I'm currently on the side of Gammatown.

VOTE: Seraphim

Okay so, after learning about the commexo win condition yesterday I got to thinking. Fun little fact time. We are actually in MyLo right now if I am understanding things properly. If we are at a total of five people tomorrow and commexo is one of them, if we do not lynch commexo and they succeed in their night kill, we lose. If we do not lynch either night or commexo today, we have a 90% chance of losing anyway. If we mislynch today, we will be at 4 or 5 tomorrow depending on the night kill. If we are at 4 and we lynch night, commexo wins with a successful night kill. If we lynch commexo, night wins with a successful night kill.

Soo - town, of course
Shmugen - town
Red Coyote - town

My last remaining suspects are Flash and Minimum with an outside chance at Bella. Bella, I think is the least likely of the three and I'm basing part of this on Fate's read from the beginning.

That leaves Flash and Minimum. I have a pet theory working with these two. They both say they can read each other really well but have both been reading each other as town. I think that night and commexo need each other at this point and would be more likely to not call each other out because otherwise they'd get killed by poe at this point.

I don't think Minimum makes any sense whatsoever for night, so if they are scum they are commexo. Flash makes sense as both and quite frankly I keep going back and forth between them because Flash said some things yesterday that make it more likely that they are commexo, while Minimum said some things that make it seem less likely that they are and if Flash is commexo then I've been wrong on Minimum and they are town, which would make me have to take a closer look at Bella or rethink my RC read as if Minimum is town then my pet theory is shit and I've been wrong on a lot.

Red Coyote's points on Flash are compelling and reading through Flash there is no reason to not consider him night aligned. There is the interaction between him and Gamma starting with Post 1530 which made me a bit twitchy when I read it because it seemed as though he was trying to find out whether or not Gamma could bust a fake claim. Post 1689 has me especially concerned considering the commexo win condition as he states he'd rather take care of night sooner than later. I didn't think anything of it at the time, but taking the win condition into consideration it seems like something one would want to take care of. I also don't like the end of the day push on shmugen. I know that I said at the end of the day I was contemplating the usefulness of it, but I still don't like it.

Shmugen is not going to get nightkilled and is a potential danger to night and to a lesser extent commexo if bp. But, I've been thinking about it and I can't see a way that shmugen is scum here. If he were night, he wouldn't announce that he has the key right? And according to Hindu if night gets the key terrible things can happen; nothing terrible has happened, so not night. And I really really doubt as commexo he'd come up with the redirector stuff as a fake claim not when it could backfire.

In a similar vein I don't like minimum's interaction with shmugen starting at Post 1212 as it read like someone verifying what would happen if they were targeted rather than trying to determine whether or not they were fake claiming and therefore determinant of alignment. My earlier read of theirs still stands and I'm not going to repeat it here, but there are moments of extreme town soundedness where I start to doubt myself. Their response to Flash's statement of wanting to take care of night sooner than later in Post 1693 in which he states that he'd rather take care of night later actually for a couple reasons reads as in direct contrast to commexo's interests.

I'm also not sensing a real effort at scumhunting here but a more focus on undermining people. I don't like the pointing to a scumtell in Post 1711 for Soo. I don't know why that was a scum tell especially when we had been discussing what we expected our suspects to flip. I don't like that I can't get them to tell me why they are reading Red Coyote as scum. Also, with regards to me I didn't like the underhanded way to cast suspicion on me. The day that Quilford was lynched, after writing the post that Gamma started suspecting them for, she claimed that she'd feel better about my alignment if I were posting long reads and cases after I knew I was going down. EXCEPT that's exactly what I was doing. I expected to get lynched that day upon replacement, so everything I posted was posted after I expected to go down. It was a little dig designed to negate the fact that I caught up with a 50 page thread and gave reads within a couple days after replacing in even though I thought I was getting lynched. But, basically it would have looked better if I would have put everything off for a couple days so I could have done exactly what I already did after Agar made his claim even thought I didn't even play that day. Never mind the fact that I don't regularly do big reads and cases anyway all that often anymore but I did in this case because I thought it was going to be my only contribution to the game. And then I get the gem of I didn't do anything yesterday though I did, just didn't spam the thread. If Seraphim would have flipped one or the other, this issue with my reads would have been solved and it wasn't worth it to throw this out there yesterday. But whatever. It's a little dig to cast suspicion where none is warranted, and these little things add to the scum read.

What is also interesting is the automatic look to one post of Hinduragi's and the suggestion to narrow down the lynch to between Red Coyote and me. It also appears they are selectively reading or postulating who was dangerous and confirmed. I would say that Gamma, Sword of Omens, Hinduragi and Shmugen were all obvious kill targets and I wouldn't be surprised if any of them ended up dead. (Oh actually Hinduragi being dead and Sword of Omens being alive makes me feel better about Bella actually...I can't see why she'd kill Gamma and definitely don't see her killing Hinduragi over Sword of Omens unless she was going for WIFOM but she seems to be a more practical player). Gamma, if he were alive, would, by his posts, likely be going after minimum and definitely not after Red Coyote so I'm trying to figure out the utility of reading one post and declaring a narrowed down lynch, which as far as I'm concerned will result in a town loss due to what I discussed above.

Meh. I need to re-read through them. I have the stronger scum read on Minimum, though they have moments of towniness, but Flash raised some eyebrows yesterday and I need to think.

[Tammy]

Oh shoot...this was on my mind a couple days ago and I forgot. Another thing that has me kind of doubting my commexo read on Minimum is also the same thing that has me believing they're not night, but for a different reason. They're most likely not night for the way Tierce responded to the way they went after her on day two. And the way they went after Tierce on day two also is what weakens my scum read on them overall. Going after someone that strongly would make them a prime target of night, which would actually endanger their standing as if night found out that they were commexo then it would be dangerous for them. So, I think they'd be less likely to go after night that strongly to keep themselves safe...I think.

[Tammy]

Okay so reading through. Night two there was only one kill and Quilford was night and blocked by the scattamun's so we can assume that night was blocked that night, right? Anyway, night two Nuwen was killed and in Post 1212 minimum says that it was most likely a night kill because of her attack on Tierce, though that doesn't make much sense right because there were others who were attacking Tierce that day and minimum was attacking far more fiercely than Nuwen was. I'm finding it a bit odd that of everyone minimum keeps assigning kills to a faction. (The tracker is commexo, Nuwen is night, Hindu is RC or me, seems off).

Anyway, looking back through Nuwen and the still only living person she had a scum read on was Flash though she wouldn't give minimum a town read either.

[Tammy]

Sorry, I've been distracted and busy past couple days.

If I don't catch up tonight when I get home, I promise tomorrow after work.

[Tammy]

Okay so, I woke up,from a nap with every intention of catching up, but I'm exhausted, don't feel good and need to finish preparing to teach someone else's classes tomorrow and a few other things before I can go back to bed, so i thought it would be more fun to whine apparently. I'm putting this off until tomorrow when I get hme.

One thing though. I don't know how much can be made of the people on the moi lynch, at least just for the sake of being there. I think rc has more of a,point when he looks at people's motivations in light of previous days, ie flash being certain he was lying, but that everyone wo was on it should take some heat is something I don't agree with. I think everyone else but me maybe was on the lynch, and I can only be excused from that because I was on vacation when it happened, and it happened pretty quickly so whoever wasn't on it just might not have had time to jump n. Also, people lynched based on what was essentially a cop guilty of sorts. And since there's more than one faction so it's not like scum jumped on for what they new was an easy mislynch. Night could have really believed he was commexo and vice versa.

I'm a little embarrassed at the number of speeding and punctuation errors I know are in this post. Tomorrow, I can make more sense tomorrow.

[Tammy]

Yarr. He said "active abilities" when he claimed.

I feel like an idiot now. I thought if it came down to it and night was the only one left before 3 person lylo, Shmugen was our chance to redirect a kill and help town.

[Tammy]

Bella - Can you explain what changed for you for Seraphim between the first post and the second post. Do you typically base scum reads on wagon analysis?

Well, roughly 400 posts and two lynches worth of information happened. That has a way of influencing opinions.

I typically base scum reads on whatever the hell is available to me. Wagon analysis is a useful tool at times. Apparently not this one, but Scumhunting isn;'t an exact science.

Why has this been literally your only contribution this week? You've been on site each day since this and you can't be bothered to do anything but answer this question in a kind of weirdly semi-aggressive and dismissive way?

The fact is that it doesn't matter that there were 400 posts between that and two lynches. One of those lynches was basically a cop guilty that happened pretty fast. And the day three lynch switched from me to Quilford in a rather short amount of time as well. Did you take that into account when you decided by wagon analysis Seraphim was likely guilty? Did you check to see if Seraphim was even online or posted during the times of the changes of those two lynches? (Hint: He wasn't) His Post 1392 was before the Quilford incident and his next Post 1553 in which he declares he's back from V/LA is after MoI was lynched.

So those two lynches of information had no bearing on Seraphim whatsoever and if you would have actually done the proper research you would know that.

So, what made you change from thinking actual words of his sounded like town to deciding faulty wagon information made him likely scum? And do you tend to prioritize wagon analysis over behavior?

[Tammy]

Why has this been literally your only contribution this week? You've been on site each day since this and you can't be bothered to do anything but answer this question in a kind of weirdly semi-aggressive and dismissive way?

I tend to believe that not posting when you have nothing to say is better than posting fluff when you have nothing to say because you want to seem active.

Pretty dumbfounded at how you have literally nothing to say. We're extremely close to endgame. There's a commexo and night wandering around, and ou literally have nothing to say but that my observations or questions are ridiculous. Not one opinion on who night/comexo is? I'm not saying you should spam the thread or post fluff, but...contribute...a little?

The fact is that it doesn't matter that there were 400 posts between that and two lynches. One of those lynches was basically a cop guilty that happened pretty fast. And the day three lynch switched from me to Quilford in a rather short amount of time as well. Did you take that into account when you decided by wagon analysis Seraphim was likely guilty? Did you check to see if Seraphim was even online or posted during the times of the changes of those two lynches? (Hint: He wasn't) His Post 1392 was before the Quilford incident and his next Post 1553 in which he declares he's back from V/LA is after MoI was lynched.

So those two lynches of information had no bearing on Seraphim whatsoever and if you would have actually done the proper research you would know that.

This is ridiculous. Reads are not independent of each other. They are informed by how you read other people. 400 posts and two lynches confirmed other players as town, whittling down the suspect pool and thus leading to reevaluations of existing players. Specifically the MoI lynch radically affected the way the game was read - prior to the reveal that he was a lying clownfuck playing against his wincon townie, a reasonable person would have to assume that one of four people (MoI and the 1-in-3) had to be scum. With this assumption removed from play, things change in a major way.

This makes better sense but it's not ridiculous and the fact that you seem so agitated over being asked a simple question is very odd. What I'm looking at is seeing you look at a players words and saying that it doesn't make sense as scum, then looking at faulty wagon information and concluding he is scum. And I'm trying to figure out your thought process because it didnt make sense to me how you went from town to scum on seraphim.

I don't know I suppose it's possible that because we viewed moi's information In a different way we might have different views of,our reads. Maybe. I still cant get to how someone making town sounding posts became scum due to faulty wagons that he couldn't have Ben apart of that makes you fel so self righteous in your action/read.

So, what made you change from thinking actual words of his sounded like town to deciding faulty wagon information made him likely scum? And do you tend to prioritize wagon analysis over behavior?

No, I don't. I tend to prioritize whatever the hell evidence is in front of me, whether it pans out or not.

See this is the kind of cheeky answer that is uncalled for especially in light of present circumstances. You claimed that his words made no sense as scum and called him town, and then used incomplete wagon analysis to call him scum. I'm trying to figure out why ou keep negating that. What's weirder is that ou can't acknowledge that you used faulty analysis to call him scum.

[Tammy]

Can we lynch the guy now who's pretending that "he's too obvtown to be scum" is something you can reject as an argument?

? I'm not. Following?

Also, I guess my choice is between one town read or another town read...fabulous.

Although, red coyote I'm a little confused on your confusion of the comexo situation. Yesterday, minimum posted the win condition and I asked about it and gamma clarified. I again talked about it in my first post today that ou referenced, where I talked about how town could potentially lose if comexo was alive and survived tomorrow so I'm lost at how you didn't know this.

[Tammy]

Why has this been literally your only contribution this week? You've been on site each day since this and you can't be bothered to do anything but answer this question in a kind of weirdly semi-aggressive and dismissive way?

I tend to believe that not posting when you have nothing to say is better than posting fluff when you have nothing to say because you want to seem active.

Pretty dumbfounded at how you have literally nothing to say. We're extremely close to endgame. There's a commexo and night wandering around, and ou literally have nothing to say but that my observations or questions are ridiculous. Not one opinion on who night/comexo is? I'm not saying you should spam the thread or post fluff, but...contribute...a little?

Hi. I'm posting. Just... not much because I don't have much to say. I'm not going to invent phantom cases just for the sake of doing something.

No, see this is where I'm not following. There aren't many people left and you're like totally mute about it. Where is anyone saying you need to post phantom cases? You're not even commenting on the game state. You've only been responding to me.

It is ridiculous to discount the fact that the state of the game completely changed between the two posts you compared. You attempted to do that. The state of the game at the point of the first post informs the opinions I drew - the fact that I was certain scum had to be somewhere else means I was inclined to interpret Seraphim's actions thusfar in a way that suppoerted my existing ideas. By the second post, the entire basis of the assumption that scum was elsewhere had been removed, uncercutting my prior assessment, which combined with what the wagon analysis demonstrated persuaded me that Seraphim was entirely possibly scum.

(Also, quit with the "faulty wagon analysis" line, the wagon analysis was entirely valid and certainly wasn't questioned by you until after it was proven false. Hindsight is 20-20.)

You are absolutely right that I didn't look at the wagon analysis before hand. I happen to almost never look at wagons before lylo. I'm not a numbers player at all; in fact when people post wagon analysis I tend to skip over it completely. I had a scum read on seraphim, and I didn't look much into why others did. But right now where there are only a few people left, I'm trying to make sense of your midset because it didn't seem to add up. But it doesn't matter whether or not I questioned it before, it was still false due to events, and I'm trying to get a handle on why you changed your read on him to help,me round out my read on you.

I didn't attempt to do anything but assess your mindset concerning the differentiation of your reads. When someone flips between a town read and a scum read and it seems off, I'm going to inquire on it, especially when I can't understand the change readily.

You asked me whether I have a tendency to do something. I do not have a tendency to do one or the other. I really don't see your problem with that?

I don't have a problem with that? I'm trying to understand you and why your read changed for what to me seemed odd reasons. It makes more sense since you explained it, probably not a change I would make, but everyone is not me, but I still think its important.

[Tammy]

Also, I guess my choice is between one town read or another town read...fabulous.

So Bella is both your biggest Commexo and Night scumread?

No. I started off the day with my pet theory that flash was night and minimum was comexo, with Bella as an outside chance for one of those, but most likely night if so. However, it is becoming more and more evident that my pet theory was complete crap as its becoming pretty clear that at least one of them is town.

[Tammy]

Well this is frustrating. I thought his not claiming meant that he wasn't finnegan, not that he was just waiting for someone else to ask him to claim, since he was sitting at L-1 for a while.

I'd really like to know why Bella hammered when she hasn't said really anything all day, or about either of them, and just when sword came back and people were starting to discuss things and rc said he would claim if someone else asked him.

Minimum. - I'm lost. What gambit are you seeing?

[Tammy]

Oh I think? I get it. You're suggesting night would be bulletproof? I'm still lost. Don't mind me.

[Tammy]

Confirmation bias is a biiitttccchhhh. Up until this minute I was still half convinced Minimum was commexo.

I agree Shmugen's town, but I thought that before. Although Minimum, you bring up that a bulletproof commexo with this win condition wouldn't make sense, but you were still suspecting (at least a little?) Shmugen until today or at least yesterday. Why did a bulletproof commexo make sense before today?

I'll deal with any night suspicions later, but as far as SK suspicions go. There's two things you should look at and tell me if it makes sense for me to be commexo. Oh and Shmugen, I re-read over the MattP going to Marpoza street a few days ago when re-reading you and seeing you say that Matt offered himself to be vanillized. I didn't get that impression. He claimed VT when a wagon was on him and there were some who didn't think he was scum and suggested that he be vanillized instead. At least that was the impression I got when reading in ISO.

Okay so, for anyone wondering if I'm SK, look at day and night two. Day two my predecessor had quite a bit of suspicion; it was when I was vanillized² instead of being lynched. Night two Nuwen was killed. Now Minimum had suggested before that Nuwen's kill was a night kill due to her going after Tierce. However, night two was when Quilford was blocked by the Scattamun's and since Quilford was night there's a pretty good chance the night kill was blocked. That would make the Nuwen kill most likely the commexo kill. Go look at how Nuwen was treating my predecessor and then tell me how likely it would be for Matt to kill Nuwen. Yes, nightkill analysis isn't perfect, but why would he kill someone who was arguing that he was town when there was suspicion on him and people believed the 1-in-3 thing was still a possibility?

Secondly, I really hope that if I were ever to get a role like commexo in a game that I'd bother to actually read the win condition and clarify with the mods instead of ask someone in thread about it. Yeah, I know feigning ignorance, yada yada, but I'd like to believe I wouldn't feign ignorance about something as silly as my own win condition. I also doubt I'd be comfortable enough as commexo to come out and first thing yesterday talk about the commexo win condition and how important it was to lynch commexo. Okay, this second section isn't too much of a defense against me being commexo if you don't know me, but still.

[Tammy]

I don't know about Tammy-SK, but with Bella looking a lot like bulletproof Night, that would leave Minimum or Flash, Flash being the player I redirected last night.

Unless we were tricked about Finnegan, there's pretty much no way that Minimum is commexo or night if that's what you were getting at. They're the last empty spot, so have to be it, and due to Gamma's investigation? are confirmed town.

[Tammy]

I mixed up the vote counts in my head after reading it on account if it being pretty late by my schedule.

What do you mean by mixing up the vote counts? The last vote count before you voted, which was on the previous page showed Red Coyote, in red, at L-1.

[Tammy]

Probably not.

Flash, are you always this decisive?

[Tammy]

Oh, right. I probably wouldn't because I don't know what the benefit would be to it, and I doubt I would have taken the chance that she was bp and wasted a shot. My night kills tend to be confirmed town/roled/vpi's, then people I don't think I can get lynched. So I would have either shot soo, shmugen, or taken a chance between you and flash to find finnegan.

I suppose if I were the sk I might think about it. Taking a chance on Bella would pretty much guarantee my win if I weren't lynched, but the same exact thing would be achieved leaving her alive anyway and would leave one more person likely to be lynched, which would be pretty important I think.

[Tammy]

Jesus Christ I literally just walked in the door. I get that you're basically confirmed town, but seriously. I am doing something; I'm reading and trying to be careful about this because getting it right is pretty important, right? I could just sheep you and go yeah it's flash cuz it's not me, but I think you know me better than that. So right now I'm pretty much stuck in could be flash, yeah probably is him based on things that minimum said and sword of omens brought up good points about Bella for night, but wait red coyote brought up this for flash as night which goes along with my earlier thoughts about flash being night so maybe it is Bella and not flash. We have time, day just started, and I have reading to do. When I have points to bring up I will or questions to ask I will.

If I were SK, I probably would have killed you. I didn't have any suspicions of you being night as I said before, my suspicions of you were as a commexo. But me being commexo would have known you weren't commexo, and I wouldnt have believed I could get you lynched, and would have thought you had a good chance of being a confirmable role, so it would be more dangerous to keep you alive. I would have thought it would be safer for me to have you guys dead so most likely would have.

[Tammy]

Bella - I saw you voted Flash. Are you typically this decisive or confident in your reads?

[Tammy]

Bella and Flash - what is your experience with Nuwen? Do you consider her the type of player who should be killed off early no matter what impact she's having on the game?

[Tammy]

Bella and Flash - what is your experience with Nuwen? Do you consider her the type of player who should be killed off early no matter what impact she's having on the game?

This is a dumb question.

I don't care. Why not answer it? Her death night two doesn't make sense to me.

[Tammy]

Bella and Flash - what is your experience with Nuwen? Do you consider her the type of player who should be killed off early no matter what impact she's having on the game?

This is a dumb question.

I don't care. Why not answer it? Her death night two doesn't make sense to me.

How does my answer help explain it for you? If I did kill her and my motivation was that I was terrified of town!nuwen do you think I'd answer honestly?

Hmm...interesting. I didn't ask you if you killed Nuwen or to defend it. I didn't even ask if you were terrified that Nuwen had a scum read on you. I asked what your experience with Nuwen was and if you considered her the type of player that should be killed early no matter what. You can replace should with is often or whatever.

I asked two very generic questions, ones whose answers aren't really alignment related since it's rather general. Sure you can lie about your experience with Nuwen, though that would be silly since others know your experience here, or whether she ought to or is often killed just because of who she is, though that would also be silly since I'm going to guess at least one other person here would have a good idea of the answer to that.

So, you might not see the value in the question, but if both you and Bella were to say you have a decent amount of experience and that it's typically good practice to kill Nuwen early then I would know that it might not hold any answers for me and can stop getting hung up on something that I keep coming back to. For instance, if I replace into a game and MoI has been killed, I'm not really going to spend much time wondering why he's been killed as I happen to know that he tends to get killed early.

What I find interesting is your response. When I replaced into Heroes of Comedy, one of my first suspects was Korlash because Fate had "suspected" him and died night one. Korlash basically told me that looking at why Fate died was taking the wrong approach because proper practice was to kill Fate early, and since everyone knew that his kill couldn't really be tied to anyone. I had no experience with Fate so didn't know that, and learned afterwards that he had faked some of his reads day one because he was experiencing a bunch of night one kills and was trying to avoid it. So, I now know that if Fate dies, it's nothing that can be looked into much because it's typical practice. But Korlash's information for me concerning Fate was absolutely alignment neutral. He was innocent, but he could have told me the same thing as evil if it was general knowledge.

Your answers to the questions would absolutely be alignment neutral as they should be something you could legitimately answer the same as either alignment, which is why I'm kind of surprised at the way you responded. I didn't think the question or answer was going to help me go "aha gotcha!" as much as it would let me know if I was getting distracted unnecessarily.

[Tammy]

Because they're confirmed sources of info. I don't need to interact with them to determine anything. I can, however, ask you and Bella questions, and even though the answers might be alignment neutral, I'm getting you to answer from your point of view. I don't need Minimum or Shmugen's point of view in this. I'm not going to look into Nuwen. I don't do outside meta research and I'm not going to research through her games to see if she's nightkilled early; that's a pretty silly suggestion to make when it's a pretty simple question to answer.

I don't care if you think it's dumb. Dumb questions can help with the game sometimes just like great questions can. I'm actually continued to be surprised that you can't see it for what it is. It's pretty simple and straight forward.

I would like to know what you think my intent was? Am I trying to set either one of you up for something? You, yourself, are voting for Bella and Bella is voting for you. You have both claimed I'm night and not the serial killer, so what was my intent if not to do whatever I can to determine which of you is the serial killer and which is night. If you've re-read you know that I think that since Quilford was night and blocked on night two when there was only one kill, we can safely assume that Nuwen was the serial killer kill. Now I know there are other reasons for one kill, but it seems that Nuwen was at least a serial killer kill.

So, since I believe, and have stated my belief that Nuwen was a serial killer kill, what is my intent that you have a problem with with me trying to determine who the serial killer is when you yourself have claimed I am not the serial killer? What do you think I was hoping to achieve by asking such a mind-numbingly stupid question that isn't alignment relevant at all?

[Tammy]

You know what. Whatever. You're obviously not even trying to understand my point or why I asked, which was to determine whether or not I'm focusing on something that is potentially irrelevant.

[Tammy]

Bella - I saw you voted Flash. Are you typically this decisive or confident in your reads?

Generally, I'm not decisive or confident in my reads. This is also the case here. Stop mischaracterising things.

You voted. I'm not mischaracterizing the fact that you voted.

Bella and Flash - what is your experience with Nuwen? Do you consider her the type of player who should be killed off early no matter what impact she's having on the game?

No, it really depends on the circumstances of the game. Personally, I like Nuwen, so I wouldn't kill her unless I had to. In this game, there was absolutely no reason for ScumIzzy to feel threatened by Nuwen - she'd listed me twice as someone she wouldn't consider voting for and the fact that confirmed-town Fate was absolutely convinced to the death that I was town meant that she was if anything someone I would have needed alive in order to counter the anti-Izzy crowd. Even if you think I'm scum, you'd have to assign that kill to the other faction.

What you really should be looking at is if I had a kill, why did MoI survive night one?

Of course, the logical conclusion is that Night killed Nuwen, and you probably disagree with it on account of replacing in after the fact.[/quote]

She did vote to send you on day two though. If she hadn't. If she'd left it at calling you town, I wouldn't even be stuck on it.

Why would you kill MoI night one?

[Tammy]

You still think bella is mafia after missing that?

How does it point to BellaSK over BellaNight?

Oblivious SK!izzy not wanting to admit to knowing that the SK killed nuwen seems orders of magnitude more likely to me than oblivious mafia!izzy not knowing the mafia had their kill blocked that night.

So, your argument is that someone would feign ignorance about something as sk but not as night?

[Tammy]

Bella - I saw you voted Flash. Are you typically this decisive or confident in your reads?

Generally, I'm not decisive or confident in my reads. This is also the case here. Stop mischaracterising things.

You voted. I'm not mischaracterizing the fact that you voted.

You applied the descriptors "decisive" and "confident" to it, which it was not. That is mischaracterization.

I may have misinterpreted the fact that you voted pretty early into the day and your statement of who was who as representing you being decisive, but I'm not sure where you can accuse me of mischaracterizing what seems obvious to me in the thread. I can't read your mind, so can't tell when a vote is decisive or indecisive.

I was claimed vanilla at that point, so there was no risk of hurting the town by sending me. She still wasn't a threat to me, because she was receptive to the idea that I was town and Fate's town read was out there. She also wasn't in any sort of town leadership position where she could create and lead a case against me that'd be a slam dunk to go through.

As for MoI, he's fucking MagnaofIllusion. Chamber/Nexus and CES are around ScumChat enough to know full well that there's no way in hell he survives night one if I have a kill - which would indicate that if I'm scum, I'd have to be night, since SKIzzy doesn't have a team that could out-vote her or whatever. Yet, Chamber/Nexus are still pushing their absurd SKIzzy notion.

You, on the other hand, have the evidence of the game thread. Why on earth would I (as scum) leave someone who makes it so hard for me to fake being town because his every other post makes me rage uncontrollably?

I can't answer that. I tend to read emotions as town. I've never played with you though, so don't know what your like as a player. That's not the type of thing I'd make a night kill over though, so it's not something that I can relate to, especially when I think many people could make that claim for.

And I think the Nuwen kill is more important than the moi non-kill in determining the serial killer.

[Tammy]

The idea is that as SK she's more likely to unthinkingly attribute the knowledge that the SK killed Nuwen to her actual alignment (since there's such a direct link) whereas if she were Night said knowledge would tie in to to stuff that's observable and she'd be fairly likely to realize that she'd know it as town. I don't particularly agree with it here though.

Vote for Flash, Tammy.

I'm leaning that way, but I haven't finished my re-read and thinking.

[Tammy]

Bella - I saw you voted Flash. Are you typically this decisive or confident in your reads?

Generally, I'm not decisive or confident in my reads. This is also the case here. Stop mischaracterising things.

You voted. I'm not mischaracterizing the fact that you voted.

You applied the descriptors "decisive" and "confident" to it, which it was not. That is mischaracterization.

I may have misinterpreted the fact that you voted pretty early into the day and your statement of who was who as representing you being decisive, but I'm not sure where you can accuse me of mischaracterizing what seems obvious to me in the thread. I can't read your mind, so can't tell when a vote is decisive or indecisive.

If you can't tell, WHY DID YOU DO IT, THEN?

Really not sure why you're caps posting at me in this instance. I attributed the descriptor "decisive and confident" based on your in-thread action (voting) and assertion in Post 1956. Both of those say to me decisive and confident in your read especially considering it was near the start of day. If you were not decisive and confident in your read, it did not show in the thread and if you are projecting more confidence or decisiveness than you actually feel, I can't know that because I'm not a mind reader. I only know what I see in the thread. Now if it was a misinterpretation that's fine, but I was basing it on what I read.

Also, I just hit day three in my re-read and you didn't claim in day two before Nuwen voted to send you, you claimed in Post 1126 day three.

[Tammy]

I'm certainly making an appeal, but its not to his emotion, maybe that's where you are getting confused.

It's pretty blatant manipulation is what it is.

[Tammy]

Tammy,

why

are you leaning toward Flash? (/other head)

I'm leaning that way because your slot said to and this indecision is driving me insane and I want to sheep someone

I re-read Flash with that rebuttal CES gave me about the meta thing between Staeg and Nexus, but I really don't see what he's talking about nor do I think it's a big not-night tell, and the way he dealt with Tierce was a bit lame which doesn't really say he's not night either.

However, there's the Nuwen issue. And re-reading through Nuwen had me looking back at how he dealt with OAFE and if CES is right that the tracker is dangerous to the SK, it would make sense for the SK to try to lynch the tracker by claiming that it was a fake claim.

The Nuwen kill though is the strongest thing leaning me towards Flash. It just makes more sense for Flash than Bella. Day one Nuwen called Flash scum, immediately at the start of day two she was calling Flash scum again. She turns her attention to Tierce pretty quickly on day two. Nuwen raises a couple issues about Bella, and does choose to send her, intimating that she believed that Bella was the scum in the infamous 1-in-3, but...damn see this is where I get stuck. She looked like she was starting to get a scum read on Bella near the end of day two, but after she voted to send Bella, Fate questioned her, and I really can't make sense of her response if she was just playing with the vanillize thing or actually had a burgeoning scum read on bella because she doesn't address it again. I just don't think I can see Bella taking out Nuwen, when she really didn't have many people on her side at that point after Fate was exploded by Shinori. However, I can see Flash wanting Nuwen gone who could potentially prove to be quite a pain in the ass for him. There's no guarantee that she wouldn't have come back to Flash on day three after Tierce had been taken out.

I also think his reaction to me talking about the Nuwen kill is pretty suspicious. Not the fact that he refuses to answer a simple question, but his reaction to it at all. The reaction reads to me as someone who is annoyed that a kill he's made has confidently led back to him rather than an innocent who knows I'm not the serial killer and is legitimately trying to determine who is. I think as an innocent, he'd see that I was trying to determine what to do with a piece of evidence, instead of fighting it.

Finally there's been his interaction with you guys. So, in Post 1947 he begins his 'must do what's best for town' effort posts by saying that if it's between Flash or me we should lynch Flash because that's the only chance town has. When that subtle bit of manipulation doesn't work, he then starts appealing emotionally to CES, and it looks pretty blatant from an outside point of view btw, with the 'don't do this, you know I'm not the SK' in Post 1980 followed up with some pretty blatant manipulation in Post 1988. His refusal to really address the evidence but focus on manipulating your slot doesn't make sense from a nonSK position.

[Tammy]

I didn't have a great expectation that either of you would be able to get away with a lie though, as I figured with minimum here there would be a good chance that it would be known as a lie. I also know that things have to be taken with a grain of salt and didn't think either of the answers would make me able to know that one of you was more likely. I mean I wish, but yeah. I realize that I sometimes process informatn in a strange way, but I don't thik that knowing that you have little recent experience with Nuwen but that she was good so was likely to be a decent night kill makes me more inclined to think you're the serial killer though. It's pretty neutral as far as I'm concerned. I don't think it achieved what I was hoping for though. I'm worried I'm spending too much time dwelling on the Nuwen death and missing something obvious or important.

I understand that you and ces have known each other for a long time and are friends and can read each other because of that. I actually don't think appealing to his emotions or sensibilities is inherently scummy. I get accused of that all the time and I'm pretty certain I appealed to Mina's sensibilities about me as a player earlier, so that's not my problem. Where I thought it developed into something suspicious was what looks like a change in tactics to me. Regardless that last post was an attempt at manipulation, even if you're not the SK that's still what it was.

[Tammy]

How would Flash know you're not the serial killer, Tammy?

He said I'm not, I'm not putting words in his mouth.

[Tammy]

Eh, placing a vote is usually a terrible idea, there will be no hammers here though. I haven't finished reading/evaluating/waffling and just checked the deadline...I have 5 more days to wallow in my indecision, which is super exciting.

[Tammy]

We were referring to this, Tammy:

The reaction reads to me as someone who is annoyed that a kill he's made has confidently led back to him rather than an innocent

who knows I'm not the serial killer

and is legitimately trying to determine who is.[/b]
Explain how he'd know this if he was innocent.

He has said he knows. Look at his interaction with me, look at his vote, look at everything since day began. He's trying to paint me as night, but he's asserting I'm not the serial killer. I'm not making this up, and if he hadn't already said he knows I'm not, I wouldn't have phrased it that way.

[Tammy]

This game is driving me insane right now.

Flash - I'm just getting to yesterday in my re-read. You had been suspecting shmugen for a while, and had ended the previous day voting for him. You said yesterday you were convinced it was him until you saw RC's posts upon the start of day. You hadn't mentioned or interacted with RC until the point he began to suspect you and make a case against you with the exception of saying you thought he was scum on day one. What about his posts made you think he was the SK who you'd rather gamble on yesterday more than shmugen?

[Tammy]

He can't know unless he's the SK.

Interesting. You're also voting him as the SK and saying I'm not. I don't care that you say you're not decisive, nothing in thread demonstrates that. So, you're demonstrating the same exact behavior as him, except for all you're doing is sniping from the sidelines today. So, how is his "knowledge" any different than yours?

[Tammy]

I know I'll vote tomorrow I promise.

[Tammy]

I don't really know what I've been waiting for. I just kept hoping something would pop out of the game or their ISO or theyd say soemthing that would make this easier. This game is driving me nuts. I even went through a paranoid delusion that there was no finnegan hobb so started reading through minmum again.

vote flash

[Tammy]

Wow. I can't believe you both are falling for that and didn't actually think it through.

There is something that has been eating at me, and I want to point out because now it makes a whole lot of sense, but I don't have time to go digging through the game and explain why this now makes sense as I'm getting ready to head to work. I'll point it out when I get home in a few hours.

Bella, nice way to claim scum by the way. There is absolutely no way I'm the serial killer. Voting for me is helping town lose not win, but you know that. Put your vote back on flash if you actually want the serial killer lynched today.

Flash - this latest stunt in the litany of ways you've tried to avoid the noose is your best but you would have done better to use it as proof for why Bella was SK not me. The way you attempted to emotionally manipulate your friend was rather cheap by the way; I realize you're just trying to do anything to win, but still.

Shmugen don't hammer me. When I get home from work in a few hours I will explain again why there's no way I'm the serial killer. Lynching me will cost us this game.

Minimum read Post 1304 and tell me if you see what I see and why this does not clear him from being sk. dammit I was going to say something else but I cant remember and I'm out of time now. It'll come back to me.

[Tammy]

Oh yeah before I forget.

Flash - Name claim and flavor. Your real one. Please and thank you.

Be back in a bit.

[Tammy]

Oh I guess I meant role. Derp. Still flavors good too.

[Tammy]

Of course you aren't the serial killer, lynching the serial killer almost surely loses me the game now that I'm claimed, there is a reason I moved my vote.

See Bella, he's lying. Put your vote back on the serial killer where it belongs.

I still think I have a chance at winning, so I don't feel like full claiming. As for a name, I'm Christopher Carrion.

Bullshit. Full Claim.

[Tammy]

He doesn't have a chance if he's night, that's why he's the serial killer. Look, he's voting for me and saying I'm not the serial killer, which means he's still accusing Bella of being the serial killer with him being night. He's trying to claim that by lynching town and leaving the only other killer alive that he'd have a slight chance of winning due to the kills tonight. He'll kill Bella and hopefully Bella will kill someone else not him, but that's silly. If neither of them are bulletproof, then they'll just end up killing each other, which is unlikely. But as night he couldn't be certain that BellaSK isn't bulletproof, and as minimum pointed out yesterday her hammer makes it more likely that she is bp. As SK it doesn't matter if someone else is bp though because he doesn't have to kill Bella to win this game, he just has to kill someone, and since he's advocating this route, he has to be bulletproof himself.

Basically all Flash has to do is survive this lynch and he wins the game with a successful kill and this last ditch gambit at what he thought was going to be real close to deadline is him attempting to do just that.

Bella

Please take a note that Flash is still calling you the serial killer and then tell me if your vote is where it should be.

[Tammy]

Also, if he were night, he'd have full claimed it at the start not just when he revealed his information. He'd want to make sure we all believed he was night, but he did not do that. It's probably because his role name doesn't make sense for night, and he lacks the flavor of the theme to adequately make up something.

[Tammy]

That's a lame argument. Night or SK, he can't win if he gets lynched, so if a plan requires Bella to be non-BP SK, that's still a better plan than getting himself lynched.

Doesn't matter, if it's the truth of the situation. I'm might be jumbling up the issue, but he's still lying.

[Tammy]

Because my setup speculation ability has been called into question, I'm still positive something else was going on with OAFEs role. I found this rule when looking back for the exact wording about the existence of a protective role:

You know that at least one element of the game depends on who "killed" the target. The killer of a player is either the person who used a killing ability on them, or the person who cast the final vote on them. In the event that neither of these players is alive, the last living person to vote for the target is considered the "killer". In the unlikely case that none of these players exist or are alive, the "killer" will be randomly chosen and informed as such.

Which leads me to believe the something else is that whomever killed him gained his unused uses of his tracker/godfather ability(I don't know if this makes any flavour sense). The role literally makes no sense unless something else is going on, and its a very plausible something else.

With that said; The biggest public setup speculation knock against it (Would you really put a confirmed town into a 1/3 group? Really?) was made long after I suspected he was lying, so there is at least one other element at work.

I've been stuck on this for quite a while as I couldn't make out the speculation about gaining some uses from the kill. Now it makes sense, he gains something from the people he kills. He felt like he had to explain why he thought the tracker was a bad claim. The tracker who he was trying to discredit on day one and the reaction to which Nuwen used as why she thought he was scum. I wondered why someone would postulate this, but now that he's giving information about finnegan hobb this makes sense. He gains something from the people he kills. So, the gamma kill was probably his kill, and he either gained the information from his kill or gained the use of his research and did the research himself. Look at the way he was interrogating Gamma about how his role worked and what he learned.

I know this sounds like a stretch and someone's going to occam's razer blah blah blah but still.

The alternative is that he is informed and can investigate and kill. He knew that MoI was lying; he probably has a similar investigative power as gamma.

[Tammy]

You haven't explained why he's lying. Unless you're counterclaiming?

I'm not counterclaiming. It's just clear he's lying. If he were night, he'd have full claimed from the start. He'd want to make sure we believe him and he's not. I'll admit that my certainty that he was lying originally came from thinking he was accusing me of being the serial killer when he voted me, but it's still quite clear.

[Tammy]

Hm. Why would RolecopySKFlash remind everyone a role like his existed?

He didn't remind everyone, people were bugging him about the way he treated the OAFE claim and he was suspected for it. Including a bit of truth in what you're speculating about always sounds good.

[Tammy]

If he were night, he'd have full claimed from the start. He'd want to make sure we believe him and he's not.

No. FlashNight is guaranteed to lose if we lynch the SK Today now whereas lynching the SK without the claim out there would give him great odds.

How so?

[Tammy]

I don't think Minimum makes any sense whatsoever for night, so if they are scum they are commexo. Flash makes sense as both and quite frankly I keep going back and forth between them because Flash said some things yesterday that make it more likely that they are commexo, while Minimum said some things that make it seem less likely that they are and if Flash is commexo then I've been wrong on Minimum and they are town, which would make me have to take a closer look at Bella or rethink my RC read as if Minimum is town then my pet theory is shit and I've been wrong on a lot.

If Flash is scum, he's definitely a Commexo. There was an earlier interaction thing with Nexus and metaing Staeg that's unlikely to have been faked and is totally something he has done as town and not the way I'd expect him to handle a scum buddy. Also, it's just the only way I buy him being this townie-looking.

This was your response to me thinking flash was night.

[Tammy]

We lynch the SK -> we lynch Flash tomorrow.
as opposed to
We lynch the SK -> endgame between say, Flash and you? Without the scumclaim I'd vote for you, certainly.

I still don't follow.

[Tammy]

I guess where I'm not following is that he claimed. Are you saying he's not claiming so tomorrow he can go just kidding, not night?

[Tammy]

Why don't you elaborate on the exact circumstances which gave you the relevant Staeg-info, Flash?

I don't really get what you are asking? I read it from Steags role pm, which he posted in our QT.

You were given fake claims. What were the at least five fake claims given to night?

[Tammy]

No, he's not. He has information, but it does not mean he's night, and the fact that he refuses to full claim makes it even more clear.

Gamma knew staeg's role pm too. Knowing the role pm does not mean he's night.

Also, if he was night he would have reacted to my Nuwen question differently. I don't care if the question was dumb, he would have reacted in a different way because he would have known the kill wasn't his.

[Tammy]

Livinia White, Elathuria, Betty Thunder, Ethel Bloch, Claus

What was up with the Nima child thing?

[Tammy]

Okay so wait answer me this, and yes it still has to do with the night kill issue. It makes sense in my head, I just don't think I can reason it out.

Flash claims night and moves his vote to me.
He then tells me that I'm not the serial killer but he doesn't want to lynch the serial killer because he thinks he still has a chance to win this, thereby nullifying his vote and helping to ensure that the person he's claimed is the serial killer will be lynched anyway.
How does he have a chance to win through this plan?
He's still helping to get rid of the only other person with a night kill, he's just not voting her now.
He makes a kill tonight and ends up in three person lylo tomorrow and loses anyway.

The only possible way he could still win this is if he's commexo, because only commexo wins with a night kill tonight.

[Tammy]

Tammy. Any night member would not want Flash to get away with this. BellaNight would counterclaim.

Maybe she didn't think it out. She hasn't been back today.

[Tammy]

Flash is banking on us not lynching the SK today. We miss. SK shoots Flash, Flash shoots SK. SK is hopefully not BP in Flash's eyes,

we're in a 3p Lylo with the night member.

Flash claiming Night means that, if the SK is not bulletproof AND we miss lynching the SK today, the SK is made kingmaker.

And he's just claimed night, so he insta-loses. How does he think he has a possible chance of winning this. He only can think he has a chance if he's the Serial Killer.

This is giving me a headache. I need to get some dinner and see if I can make sense of this.

[Tammy]

Flash can you explain for me how you, as night, think you have a chance of winning this game? You say I'm not the serial killer and you don't want the serial killer lynched, so how is it you think you can win?

[Tammy]

Flash is banking on us not lynching the SK today. We miss. SK shoots Flash, Flash shoots SK. SK is hopefully not BP in Flash's eyes, we're in a 3p Lylo with the night member.

Flash claiming Night means that, if the SK is not bulletproof AND we miss lynching the SK today, the SK is made kingmaker.

What do you mean the sk is made kingmaker?

[Tammy]

Hey, Tammy. Do you have any information making you so confident that Flash is lying? Or do you just think it's important for him to be lynched despite his claim with information that should prove he's Night? You don't particularly suspect Bella?

Totally wish. I was originally certain he was lying because I thought he was claiming I was the serial killer. Once it really sunk it what he meant by voting for me but claiming that I'm not the serial killer because he doesn't want the serial killer lynched it became even more clear that he was lying. This just doesn't make sense to me. The only way it makes sense is if he is commexo because he is the only person who can win tonight with a kill.

All the reasons why I believed he was commexo over bella still stand. The Nuwen kill doesn't make sense for Bella, but it makes perfect sense for Flash. The way he responded to my question about Nuwen makes sense for a commexo annoyed that a kill is leading back to him. The way he treated Shmugen makes more sense from a commexo standpoint. The way he in Post 1689 wanted to deal with night sooner than commexo doesn't make sense from a night perspective, but totally does from a commexo perspective.

I don't see how the information proves he's night. I think he was letting on something about his role, in that his kills gain something from the person they kill. And since we know at least one other person was able to gain role pms, him having one doesn't prove him as night. And it makes sense the commexo would gain information somehow. Staeg flipped informed, Gamma flipped researcher, there's no reason to not believe that the commexo has a way of gaining information.

Do I suspect Bella, sure, for night way more than Flash. She just makes more sense that way and she probably didn't even pay attention to the commexo win condition, and figured she'd lend weight to my wagon since it was now between me and her instead of Flash.

[Tammy]

Why I was sure MoI was lying should be obvious, I knew there were no mafia members in his group first hand. I legitimately thought that OAFE's claim looked made up, I obviously thought he was the SK not mafia but~. I don't roll many scum role pms, this means my scum play is more likely to change quickly relative to my town play. The last two times I was mafia on the forums I let my hydra partners take more of a lead (yes, I'm now 3/3 for being a hydra when mafia), this time nexus did shit all most of the game. And most importantly, I was playing in a game with CES, I did my best to not be typical scum me. I was tempted on way more than 1 occasion to go into case building bullying mode but knew that CES would catch me instantly if I did.

Things to help convince you:

How sure I was that MoI was lying, and the way I pussyfooted around calling him scum for it until it was convenient, I was burdened with the knowledge that he was lying town so it was hard to attack him for it.

I'm pretty sure Llamarble hid behind me n1, and I have no idea how this hasn't been raised by anyone else (though I guess he may die If I were the SK too, I don't actually know how that interaction works.)

I think quilford took something I said(1429) as me attempting to coach him, which is why he made the terrible refusing to hammer play.

I'm sure I can point to more things given time to look back over my play, but those are the things that standout in my memory.

You didn't for one second think that maybe his one in three was the serial killer?

How does any of this besides your lolquilfordcoaching demonstrate you as night over commexo scum?

[Tammy]

Also, note, he still won't give what his role is or flavor associated if he actually was night, he wouldn't have been all don'tfeellikeit.

[Tammy]

Flash can you explain for me how you, as night, think you have a chance of winning this game? You say I'm not the serial killer and you don't want the serial killer lynched, so how is it you think you can win?

[Tammy]

I didn't answer that for the same reason I haven't claimed abilities; Doing so wont significantly increase my chances of not getting lynched today (especially as I currently perceive things), but would significantly reduce my chance of actually winning(and with margins as low as they are already).

How so? The only chance you have of winning is in the night kill. You're full claim doesn't affect the night kill.

Sorry sorry sorry

[Tammy]

Can someone explain to me how flash not full claiming makes it less likely that he'll be lynched? If he's night, he would be able and willing to make it explicit why he is.

Also, how does his refusing to claim make it more likely for him to win? His only chance to win this game is through a night kill...if he hits commexo and they don't target him. So what does his claim have to do with it? Nothing.

[Tammy]

Lovely how Bella doesn't offer any thoughts about the situation.

Minimum what are your thoughts?


Yes, I o,bject shmugen!!!!!!!!!

[Tammy]

You're still of the opinion that Flash is the SK and making up heaps of things he could not have known?

He's obviously not making up stuff, but there's no reason to believe the serial killer doesn't have some way of gaining information.

[Tammy]

So you can hammer and win the game. Nice try, Shmugen's not stupid Flash.

[Tammy]

That doesn't even make sense.

[Tammy]

Not as such.

Since Flash's claim, Tammy has done all but counterclaim Flash to the point that it's obvious Tammy and Flash are the 2 scum (the strength of her certainty certainly makes no sense if she were town). Based on play I'd call Flash the SK and Tammy the final Night for sure (see e.g. Tammy's genuine-seeming belief that our slot was the SK earlier). Flash knowing the details of our role obviously does point to him being Night but there are also parts of his claim that seem sketchy, specifically I find it odd that the scum team'd only have 5 safe claims (especially with Numa Child being an obvious addition, something which Tammy pointed out immediately).

You don't think his refusal to full claim his role and admitting that he doesn't want the serial killer lynched points to him as lying?

Also, 3 hours counts as immediately now? I'd say that's more than enough time for me to read the flipped scums iso.

[Tammy]

It'd be appreciated if you claimed Night by the bye, Tammy.

Why would I do that?

[Tammy]

Dammit. I literally suck at trying to defend myself when I'm caught. I was going to do this last night when I realized that I had made it absolutely obvious that I was night by the way I went about it and that it didn't seem like people were buying that flash was lying, but I was still holding out some hope that I had a small chance to win this. I wish I would have gone about proving that he was lying differently. I saw right when he claimed and tried to figure out a way to still get him lynched without outing myself in the process, but gah this kind of thing is not my forte.

If its going to be between me or him today, I'll make sure it's not me, because I've lost either way and would rather town win if I can't. Also, I don't think shmugen is going to be convinced any other way that flash isn't night. I know that it's not a 100% guarantee that I've lost this thing, but it's close enough that I don't see a way around it, so I hope this isnt considered playing against my win con but once minimum made it clear that I all but counterclaimed in name the writing was on the wall. I don't have the skill to come back from that

Give me a minute and I can give you enough proof that I'm night.

[Tammy]

Bella's not going to be lynched flash. They've already made it clear it's between me and you.

[Tammy]

unvote

What are you talking about Flash?

[Tammy]

I'm not. I know I can't win this. I just want to figure out what he's trying to do.

[Tammy]

Sorry, I got distracted. Although it appears you believe me anyway here:

I’m Admiral Bloat, Captain of the Wormwood. I had a passive ability called captain. It allowed us to have daytalk, once I became vanilla, we lost daytalk. We also had the universal eye that we stole from rojo pixler where we could investigate people.

Elathuria and Numa Child were Masons, Deaux-Deaux was an assistor and the three VT claims were Henry Murkitt, King Claus of Day and Jimothi Tarrie, the Tarrie-Cat General are the real fake claims.

[Tammy]

Hammer now?

[Tammy]

That doesn't even make sense.

[Tammy]

I'm not going to admit how long it took me to understand that.

I would still lose in that situation.

[Tammy]

If I'm going to lose though, I'd rather lose to town. A lot of town worked really hard and put a lot of effort into this game.

[Tammy]

There's no way I'd be able to win it. Not after I'm a replacement to three people and a night team that was near decimated by day 3. I didn't expect to get this far.

Besides, winning it that way wouldn't really be winning it at all. It's not really a fair way to win it and I wouldn't be able to count it as a win even if I did some how get it. Winning when all sides don't have the equal chance of winning isn't winning, it's default.

I'd rather not. Town deserves this.

VOTE: Flash

[Tammy]

^^^or you know tammy thinks that even

[Tammy]

I mean I'm really sorry to night for fucking up though.

[Tammy]

I mean I'm really sorry to night for fucking up though.

shut up, you were night's MVP this game

<3

[Tammy]

I did consider my win-con though. I never stopped considering it. I won't apologize for not wanting to win like that. We were both scum caught. If it had been a situation where one of us hadn't outed ourselves then maybe, but we would have gone into a situation where two scum who were caught would have won over town for sure. That just doesn't feel right to me.

Its the nature of three party games that eventually, the town may not have all the power while the game is still running. I'm not actually all that bitter about this but your sense of right and wrong is borked.

My sense of right and wrong is fine; I mean I might have an overwhelming sense of right which I'm not going to deny but it's not borked. I have a really hard time playing scum in the first place because things like this really bother me, and the fact that I was willing to lie through my teeth up until the moment I thought I couldn't get away with it any more speaks volumes for how much I put into this game for my factions win. I had a really good chance at winning this game if you didn't claim night or if I would have been able to figure out a way to convince them without outing myself so obviously, but once we both claimed scum it didn't feel right. Maybe one day I'll get desensitized to the game and won't thnk that way, but I'm not there yet.

[Tammy]

Dead qt?

[Tammy]

Hito http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KAfKFKBlZbM this is a much better Latin teacher, not as nice as a Latin teacher as I used to be, but he was probably more effective.

[Tammy]

Before I was vanillaized we had daytalk, which didn't matter much once Quilford died as I just monologued in a paranoid spiral in the qt alone. But, before I was vanilla, the universal eye resolved before role blocks. I'm assuming that you abducted Minimum night 3? (That's what I gathered from the qt I think). I investigated them night three. If I wasn't vanilla'd, I'd have learned they were finnegan, but since I was vanilla I got no result.

It was actually pretty important. I would have killed them had I actually learned their role.

[Tammy]

230
Tierce
10-02-2012
11:12 PM ET (US)
I have to say that looking at nine dead Day players since Quilford's lynch is extremely pleasant.

Go Night!

-------

It was extremely pleasant for me as well. I'm sorry I couldn't see it through to the end, but the nonstop assault on night coming to an end for a while was nice.

[Tammy]

I really had a great time playing this game. The setup and flavor text was grat. Thank you for running it and letting me replace in.

I'm sorry to anyone who doesn't see or accept why I did what I did; I did want to win this game and worked hard for night, but well...

Thank you sword! Also, I should have caught that crumb, but I thought that anxiety was mrs. Thought it was pretty funny when you posted that was your original suspicion.