Xenoblade Mafia (Game Over)

[spinachattack]

Why is sajin town again?

I want to look at him and varsoon today

Sajin 1955

Varsoon among others, 2015, 2094- wtf? Last two paragraphs complete shit trying too hard to convince he's town, 2189 like a continuation of 2094

[spinachattack]

Also Re: Letters/Waynegg fusion, he's still null. He hates giving reads as town, to give them so freely is bad. He likes to go after super town people as both alignments though. Like, he literally tried to lynch the confirmed cop with several successful guilty result-->lynches. Also, he never puts himself as a town read on his reads as town, or at least I sure don't recall him having ever done so. But it's not enough to go off of, more observation needed.

You mean the one we just finished on 6P which you yourself said favored scum? Where you told me I couldn't be so blunt and snarky because the age group would never listen to what I had to say even though my initial reads were correct and that I should have stuck with my original reads and presented them nicer? It didn't help that the same Cop cleared and buddied with the 1x GF so that when I spoke out against said GF, the whole town wanted to gang rape me. It's not unreasonable when you consider how hard the scum was bussing from D1 and the Cop/GF buddy situation to be unsure as to which of that pair were scum as VT.

Here's the game and I shared my reads freely...
http://www.sixprizes.com/forums/threads ... ost-168977

Low blow and a lie there buddy
Nice try though!

My reads have changed considerably. It's amazing how 2758 posts will do that, jeez! I don't think I should do any voting without my other half's agreement.

[spinachattack]

Who was voting me again

I am here now if you would like to vote me

That was me, 35 pages in. The next 76 pages changed a lot of what I initially thought.

w

[spinachattack]

Varsoon: describe your interaction with 2 yesterday and tell me where you were leaning on the slot, specifying every change in your read through the course of the day

Thank you

Oh yeah and it seemed like you were still votin me by day end, spin, what was up with that

Yup.

Because it was obvious who was going to be lynched by that point anyhow and I wanted the time to develop my thoughts independently. Do you want my thoughts?

[spinachattack]

Mafiascum

Player List:



3. Andrius



7. Venmar
8. Ghostlin- 2100 horrible logic or trying to manipulate reads?, 2140 he's been backing 2 all day but here he may as well be breast feeding off 2 pushing town lynch over by that point obv scum., I don't read that as original thought so much as bad scum trying to save scum
9. GuyInFreezer
4. BeautyAndTheBeast (Majiffy + pirate mollie)


13. orcinus_theoriginal but
14. RachMarie 1149 last sentence (a regular game implies 4-6 scum depending on PR and number of scum teams; with regard guys here give her, I would think she would know that), everything else very town



18. TiphaineDeath need to ISO

20. Varsoon- need to ISO, attempted to have town player post their role card, 2015 did some iso for us still need to do our own but that is pretty damning, 2113 with 2116 flipping on his own gambit not legal/legal



Town
17. Nachomamma8- connected to Sajin in quotes on 1955, except for 557
11. Mac- need to ISO, still leans town
5. BROseidon
16. TheReverend- Miller with many posts after about 1900 that makes me wonder if he could town harder?
3. Andrius
15. Sajin- connected to Macho 1955

Scum
6. Cabd 1146, 1360 & 1364- opportunistic, 2026 in #6 says MS is following all the MAJOR TOWN PLAYERS but he couldn't know the major town players without first knowing the town players, also the vote for AJ seems more for cloak of originality than anything especially after stating 2 was already in half the town's scum list
10. Ser Arthur Dayne 1965 VAGUE,
12. Metal Sonic- so many posts, especially after page 60, lynch for 1925 alone, 2607 meltdown
2. Aj The Epic 1978 if he dies and flips scum, 1981 but we can't point it out without some thought, comes off more scum trying to show townie than just townie but that's a meta call and I don't have that info, 2163
20. Varsoon- need to ISO, 2015 did that some still need to do our own but that is pretty damning, 2094- wtf? Last two paragraphs complete shit trying too hard to convince he's town, 2189 like a continuation of 2094


1801
1905
1943 needs to be dissected
2134 something about it doesn't sit we'll with me
2159
2163 trying too damn hard to paint AJ town when compared to all the virtual one liners he's done on everyone else
2185 much like 2134
2586 hilight it and have Kindle read it to you...
2688 I read the bolded part as fluff at that point in my reading. Though it occupied every free minute I've had (and I don't have nearly as many of those as I would like) 2700+ posts have changed early opinions vastly and have served well as introductions to how all these people I've never played with, play.


w

[spinachattack]

Shit. 2807 is outdated

Mafiascum

Null
7. Venmar
8. Ghostlin- 2100 horrible logic or trying to manipulate reads?, 2140 he's been backing 2 all day but here he may as well be breast feeding off 2 pushing town lynch over by that point obv scum., I don't read that as original thought so much as bad scum trying to save scum
9. GuyInFreezer
18. TiphaineDeath need to ISO leans scum
10. Ser Arthur Dayne



Town
17. Nachomamma8- connected to Sajin in quotes on 1955, except for 557
11. Mac- need to ISO, still leans town
5. BROseidon
16. TheReverend- Miller with many posts after about 1900 that moan town so hard I nearly jizzed my pants
3. Andrius
15. Sajin- connected to Nacho 1955
4. BeautyAndTheBeast (Majiffy + pirate mollie)
14. RachMarie 1149 last sentence (a regular game implies 4-6 scum depending on PR and number of scum teams; with regard guys here give her, I would think she would know that), everything else very town
13. orcinus_theoriginal


Scum
6. Cabd 1146, 1360 & 1364- opportunistic, 2026 in #6 says MS is following all the MAJOR TOWN PLAYERS but he couldn't know the major town players without first knowing the town players, also the vote for AJ seems more for cloak of originality than anything especially after stating 2 was already in half the town's scum list
12. Metal Sonic- so many posts, especially after page 60, lynch for 1925 alone, 2607 meltdown
2. Aj The Epic 1978 if he dies and flips scum, 1981 but we can't point it out without some thought, comes off more scum trying to show townie than just townie but that's a meta call and I don't have that info, 2163
20. Varsoon- need to ISO, 2015 did that some still need to do our own but that is pretty damning, 2094- wtf? Last two paragraphs complete shit trying too hard to convince he's town, 2189 like a continuation of 2094


1801
1905
1943 needs to be dissected
2134 something about it doesn't sit we'll with me
2159
2163 trying too damn hard to paint AJ town when compared to all the virtual one liners he's done on everyone else
2185 much like 2134
2586 hilight it and have Kindle read it to you...
2688 I read the bolded part as fluff at that point in my reading. Though it occupied every free minute I've had (and I don't have nearly as many of those as I would like) 2700+ posts have changed early opinions vastly and have served well as introductions to how all these people I've never played with, play.

[spinachattack]

I finished reading and taking notes on every post 10 minutes before the thread opened back up. I had several versions of lists going in case something gave me reason to double or triple guess myself. I just copypasta'd the wrong one the first time.

[spinachattack]

I finished reading and taking notes on every post 10 minutes before the thread opened back up. I had several versions of lists going in case something gave me reason to double or triple guess myself. I just copypasta'd the wrong one the first time.

post your other ones!

I finished reading and taking notes on every post 10 minutes before the thread opened back up. I

had

several versions of lists going in case something gave me reason to double or triple guess myself. I just copypasta'd the wrong one the first time.

[spinachattack]

it is kind of weird how you had us as scum in your first list, not did mention us in your second but was quick to repost a second list where we were town

it seems contrived

@ spinach guy

You're there...

Mafiascum

Player List:



3. Andrius



7. Venmar
8. Ghostlin- 2100 horrible logic or trying to manipulate reads?, 2140 he's been backing 2 all day but here he may as well be breast feeding off 2 pushing town lynch over by that point obv scum., I don't read that as original thought so much as bad scum trying to save scum
9. GuyInFreezer

4. BeautyAndTheBeast (Majiffy + pirate mollie)

13. orcinus_theoriginal but
14. RachMarie 1149 last sentence (a regular game implies 4-6 scum depending on PR and number of scum teams; with regard guys here give her, I would think she would know that), everything else very town



18. TiphaineDeath need to ISO

20. Varsoon- need to ISO, attempted to have town player post their role card, 2015 did some iso for us still need to do our own but that is pretty damning, 2113 with 2116 flipping on his own gambit not legal/legal



Town
17. Nachomamma8- connected to Sajin in quotes on 1955, except for 557
11. Mac- need to ISO, still leans town
5. BROseidon
16. TheReverend- Miller with many posts after about 1900 that makes me wonder if he could town harder?
3. Andrius
15. Sajin- connected to Macho 1955

Scum
6. Cabd 1146, 1360 & 1364- opportunistic, 2026 in #6 says MS is following all the MAJOR TOWN PLAYERS but he couldn't know the major town players without first knowing the town players, also the vote for AJ seems more for cloak of originality than anything especially after stating 2 was already in half the town's scum list
10. Ser Arthur Dayne 1965 VAGUE,
12. Metal Sonic- so many posts, especially after page 60, lynch for 1925 alone, 2607 meltdown
2. Aj The Epic 1978 if he dies and flips scum, 1981 but we can't point it out without some thought, comes off more scum trying to show townie than just townie but that's a meta call and I don't have that info, 2163
20. Varsoon- need to ISO, 2015 did that some still need to do our own but that is pretty damning, 2094- wtf? Last two paragraphs complete shit trying too hard to convince he's town, 2189 like a continuation of 2094


1801
1905
1943 needs to be dissected
2134 something about it doesn't sit we'll with me
2159
2163 trying too damn hard to paint AJ town when compared to all the virtual one liners he's done on everyone else
2185 much like 2134
2586 hilight it and have Kindle read it to you...
2688 I read the bolded part as fluff at that point in my reading. Though it occupied every free minute I've had (and I don't have nearly as many of those as I would like) 2700+ posts have changed early opinions vastly and have served well as introductions to how all these people I've never played with, play.


w

Pedit- I've never drawn a scum card.

[spinachattack]

Not as bad as fucking game of thrones tonight, but still.

Totally didn't see that one coming. Eerie with no closing theme.

[spinachattack]

We can look at him once we've put AJ 12 feet under. I agree, I gambit as town all the time on my home site and it lets me do crazy shit as scum. But he's got no gambits to his name as town. Paranoia yes. Gambits no.

ughh! are you trying to frame me for tunneling you or something?

post 970 I revealed the Gambit after accomplishing what I needed to accomplish- http://pokegym.net/forums/showthread.ph ... t=werewolf

[spinachattack]

He's really good at getting an internal mis-rep of posts too.

I don't know if that's a compliment or a put down

/Going to bed.

[spinachattack]

Arthur can you say why you think Venmar is scum?

Well first of all I really didn't like his exchange with Sajin. It felt like he was just attacking him due to OMGUS from this. But I really didn't like the way Venmar just came in here today and called Sajin town. It just feels so... off. Especially since he was angry yesterday, voted him, then all he really said about him is that he'll be revisiting him. So to answer someone's question of "Why is Sajin town again?" with almost like "because he is" is... weird. The response is not really adding up with someone who had a suspicion of him

right at the end of the day before

. Btw, if this is multiball, Venmar's over-explanation at the end of day 1 is extremely terrible (well, it is extremely terrible already, but if it's multiball it makes it scummy imo).

Arthur can you say why you think Venmar is scum?

Well first of all I really didn't like his exchange with Sajin. It felt like he was just attacking him due to OMGUS from this. But I really didn't like the way Venmar just came in here today and called Sajin town. It just feels so... off. Especially since he was angry yesterday, voted him, then all he really said about him is that he'll be revisiting him. So to answer someone's question of "Why is Sajin town again?" with almost like "because he is" is... weird. The response is not really adding up with someone who had a suspicion of him

right at the end of the day before

. Btw, if this is multiball, Venmar's over-explanation at the end of day 1 is extremely terrible (well, it is extremely terrible already, but if it's multiball it makes it scummy imo).

Nacho pointed out many reasons for Sajin to be town in post 1955. Venmar's 'because he is' was a horrible response and did feel a lot like he was riding shirt tails.

[spinachattack]

@BnB why do you see Varsoon town? I really don't. His "gambit" that would have lead to a modkill comes across as trying to get a town to self lynch, possibly ending the day and saving 2's ass. That and all the stuff I pointed out in my reads. I'm with you on Metal though. If you think I'm off on Barsoon, could you link me to why?

I still haven't heard from TMT, but I don't want to keep holding my vote. So if he doesn't agree, I guess he can debate me on changing it.

VOTE AJ

[spinachattack]

Note: This half of spinachattack (the TMT half) will be V/LA up until June 5. I'll try to make posts so catching up will be less of a business.

[spinachattack]

@BnB why do you see Varsoon town? I really don't. His "gambit" that would have lead to a modkill comes across as trying to get a town to self lynch, possibly ending the day and saving 2's ass. That and all the stuff I pointed out in my reads. I'm with you on Metal though. If you think I'm off on Barsoon, could you link me to why?

I still haven't heard from TMT, but I don't want to keep holding my vote. So if he doesn't agree, I guess he can debate me on changing it.

VOTE AJ

his timing with his outrage. it was at a point where he was wanting to lead town with a gambit that he thought would for sure catch scum but was feeling slighted that no one was listening to him. I responded to him and tried to reach out to him but his blatantly ignoring me reads as townish cos I would think that if he was going to pursue the sulkey angle as scum he would not have dropped it (it would give scum great cover to hide behind that particular aTe). frustrated town would would though

his timing with his outrage. it was at a point where he was wanting to lead town with a gambit that he thought would for sure catch scum but was feeling slighted that no one was listening to him. I responded to him and tried to reach out to him but his blatantly ignoring me reads as townish cos I would think that if he was going to pursue the sulkey angle as scum he would not have dropped it (it would give scum great cover to hide behind that particular aTe). frustrated town would would though

I can see that, but who's to say his announced flaky gambit wasn't in and of itself a gambit in the way I mentioned. An announced gambit does nothing because people see it coming. I read it as more a 'look what my right hand is doing while I pick your pocket with my left hand' kind of ploy. I mean for Christ sake, the rules in the op are pretty damned clear about what will happen to you if you quote any part of your role pm or other private mod communication. Still seems scummy to me, but thanks for the opposing perspective.

[spinachattack]

But, correct me if I'm wrong here, didn't Bork step in and say that they would be MK if they went down that road? It would take VERY stupid scum to keep pushing after that, no?

[spinachattack]

Wait, like what the fuck do I have to do with that quote chain at all to be mentioned here? I've been staying quiet as to not "Spread wifom" (because god knows none of you would trust my reads until I die anyways), but still: What am I missing that I'm involved here?

I've got this one.

bure bure bure bure
Your axle is shaking

reads as an attempt to pull people off your wagon to pile on his. He's giving himself up in your defense. The only motivation I can see for that is that he knows your role and it's more important than his. Since a good many people see both you guys as scum, logic would be you have a scum PR.

[spinachattack]

Wait, like what the fuck do I have to do with that quote chain at all to be mentioned here? I've been staying quiet as to not "Spread wifom" (because god knows none of you would trust my reads until I die anyways), but still: What am I missing that I'm involved here?

I've got this one.

bure bure bure bure
Your axle is shaking

reads as an attempt to pull people off your wagon to pile on his. He's giving himself up in your defense. The only motivation I can see for that is that he knows your role and it's more important than his. Since a good many people see both you guys as scum, logic would be you have a scum PR.

I really hope AJ is a scum PR.

Also, do you -really- think I'm trying to make myself a lynch target when I've got a vote on AJ?

Yes

[spinachattack]

not following.

Why is everyone attributing Spinachattack's 2994 comment to me?

So bullshit, AJ. You didn't think that one through at all.

Because it was directed at you, or more specifically your comment about wheels falling off the AJ wagon. Then AJ pretty much confirmed his back hair and threw you under the bus for the bad comment:

What you really don't understand is that anyone and everyone in this game realizes I'm getting lynched. There aren't many roles out there that are so important, you'd think of sacrificing another scum just to save scum for one more day. Ergo, bullshit on Varsoon's comment. Plus, this lynch was seen weeks ago. Were I a power role, my actions would've been fully implemented yesterday.

So bullshit, Varsoon. You didn't think that one through at all.

[spinachattack]

I am somewhat between accepting my fate and terribly insulted you think my scum game is this easy to poke out.

Wow, what

I have Nacho, Cabd, sajin, orc, BnB, rach, ghostlin as town

@BnB why do you see Varsoon town? I really don't. His "gambit" that would have lead to a modkill comes across as trying to get a town to self lynch, possibly ending the day and saving 2's ass. That and all the stuff I pointed out in my reads. I'm with you on Metal though. If you think I'm off on Barsoon, could you link me to why?

I still haven't heard from TMT, but I don't want to keep holding my vote. So if he doesn't agree, I guess he can debate me on changing it.

I really am sorry about this, I've been trapped in the hospital with no way to post.

VARSOON DOES NOT MAKE SENSE
IN EVERY SINGLE ONE OF HIS TOWNGAMES (EVERY SINGLE ONE)
HE GETS LYNCHED D1
EXCEPT FOR ONE
WHERE I SAID THIS TYPE OF THOUGHT PROCESS CAN'T BE FAKED
IT'S TOO FUCKING CRAZY TO BE FAKED
AND IS THERE REASON FOR HIM TO FAKE IT
NO
HELL NO
UNLESS HE KNOWS I WILL TOWNREAD HIM FOR IT AND I WILL NOT BE AROUND FOREVER
SO IT'S A SHIT SCUM STRATEGY
VARSOON'S SCUMGAME IS BORING
boring as hell
he's sensible, he's too helpful, he doesn't rock the boat
when varsoon is town
he rocks the fuck out of every boat because his thought process is free. he has no reason to keep it inside; it's absolutely everywhere. that's what he is this game. at all.

I really couldn't agree more.

MS has not said anything further about TD
TD has not said anything further about MS

Since like 5 days ago. Ughh

@cabd : Say that again plz.

I only started posting few hours ago after V/LA.

Catching up.

GIF, can you buy me some pizza?

Now you're just trying to milk nacho's townread of you. No wonder people don't like to play with you.

What is your opinion of Varsoon?

Now you're just trying to milk nacho's townread of you. No wonder people don't like to play with you.

People don't like to play with me because I'm unconventional.

lololol

22 posts since I started my catch up. I'll make a separate p-edit.

[spinachattack]

nvm don't have much to say

[spinachattack]

WOW did I seriously logout and then log back in to the same account

Also, cabd, I'm not sure what you mean by fake breadcrumbing. I can see he's obviously exploiting that nacho read.

Also, happy scumday nacho

[spinachattack]

WOW did I seriously logout and then log back in to the same account

Also, cabd, I'm not sure what you mean by fake breadcrumbing. I can see he's obviously exploiting that nacho read.

Also, happy scumday nacho

Go pull his ISO, look for role claiming in the most recent 30 posts or so. Look carefully, and you'll see it.

no need to be vague about it

[spinachattack]

well if he denies it I really don't see how he can claim it later

[spinachattack]

food tells?? WTF? Only thing I can see where a food tell would be a bread crumb is for fruit vendor?

In the NFL upick we did fruit vendor was changed to cheese vendor cause dude picked Wisconsin cheeseheads team lol.

We had a lot of cheesy fun with that.

uggh not liking AJs response to his wagon. eh I am gonna shut up now.. wtf where is the town motivation in that? Kill it with Fire

Scumz

Andy you still seem to be so sure AJ is town can you explain what town motivation there is in his response to his wagon?

Rach food tells as in talking about food instead of the game as a way to force town-tells. Not as in the role itself.

I totally didn't get that whole conversation last night, and still don't. It just gave me the munches and I had to go snack on crap. You gotta explain how you could glen anything from that because it went right over my head.

[spinachattack]

if aj is town i will eat my hat

and since when did you start town reading me lmao

You may want some hot sauce or something with that

[spinachattack]

And I do want the video, so please make one.

[spinachattack]

Also, Rach vote is stupid considering BOTH mollie and majiffy had her down as town

They may have had her down town, but they couldn't have seered before last night, unless they got a freebie N0.

[spinachattack]

Being clueless as to how any of you guys play, its like looking through fogged glasses to this point. So, I have a question about Nacho and Buldermar's in game relationship.

You lied about, at the very least:

1) Nacho thinking we're scum when he is in fact just sheeping you.

2) You not having mislynched me before because of your excesssive tunneling.
3) You thinking that I can't simulate scumhunting as scum.
4) You claiming to not have lied about anything.

That's four lies so far.
1) Will be proven once Nacho gets back.
2) Is proven by the links I've provided.
3) Can be proven if I find the specific post - for now you'll have to do with the game subsequent to which you made the comment.
4) Is proven by at least 1 of 1-3 being proven.

buldey you dick

Is 2765 creating WIFOM off 2626? Looking through 2 v Nacho there seems to be some bad blood there and on first impression I think Buldermar would bus him like this just to have the last laugh. If there is any merit to that, there's also an associative tell with Sajin in 1955. A little help here would be nice, but right now I have Nacho leaning scum.

On Rach, I've been flip flopping and haven't been able to nail her down. Mkst of her posts do come off self serving, but as soon as I'm ready to throw her in the scum bucket, I find a post that says maybe not. Taking that and what you all say about her normal play, however

VOTE RACHMARIE

[spinachattack]

you mean a cop result? A seer does werewolf guilties and town innocents, a cop can read mafia members.

I fail to see the difference. I've always though seer/cop were pretty much synonymous. What's the difference?

[spinachattack]

fair enough

NACHO
THE TRIUMVIRATE NEEDS YOU
FOR THE NIGHT IS DARK AND FULL OF TERRORS

btw

I'm starting to lean town on you independent of nacho's read for your proactiveness

So you're probably town factoring in Nacho's read

QFT

[spinachattack]

Nacho: reconsidering maybe that you're right on Andy being town. But varsoon, sorry I'm not going with you on that read

I can agree with the rest of the townblock for now

QFT

[spinachattack]

3. Andrius
-I didn't like the Sven jump in 175. The part where e calls Sven out for being in a meeting seems especially weak to me. Scum fabricating reason. All his reasons for voting Sven were regurgitated--why not credit them directly? Similarly, if he's agreeing with other people's thought processes, why isn't he posting that he is town reading them? BROs lack of a vote isn't scummy, a lot of people in MS don't use their vote liberally (Marangal). Attacking BRO or not having a scum read is fucking stupid because neither did I. And many other people. Attack on Sven's 160 seems really really asinine.

Very slow on giving town reads. Mollie and I werent given a town read until post 500. I feel like it should have been earlier.

Votes: Sven and varsoon. Can't argue, but both seem like wagons that would be easiest to build a case on, varsoon especially. Makes me doubt.

Obviously I wouldn't normally be using Sven ad varsoon vote to call someone out but I'm just looking for hints of scum motivation right now

2 vote came out of nowhere

Going down this list...
8. Ghostlin

14. RachMarie
It's rach.
18. TiphaineDeath
20. Varsoon

QFT

[spinachattack]

I found quite a few interesting Orc posts.

3279
3276
3269
3124
2595
2123
2120
1641
1612
1600
1422
1321
732
699

Early on he tunneled Varsoon pretty hard and the inexplicably backed off, never really getting back to him. At times later, he even quoted conversations about Varsoon. But at the e d of the day, what I don't like the most are the 3 posts I QFT. To me it looks a lot like distancing himself from Andy in 1612 and then clearing through another player (Nacho) who is seems to be in most town piles in 3124 and 3280. It's particularly odd to me to have the need to clear him twice for the same reason and through the same player. For now...

VOTE: ANDRIUS

[spinachattack]

EBWOP ~ wayne

[spinachattack]

Didn't orc yelled at varsoon for quite a bit?

Yup. At first he called him stupid, a bad player, suggested he used bad logic... Hell, he even voted for him. Then he got off him (compared to earlier posts) all but completely.

About Nacho... 1955 really seems to link he and Sajin.

I would always criticize miller day 1 claims. I also wanted to know whether he investigated as a specific anti town faction name (the win condition leave open scum multiball possibility). I have also encountered a faction specific miller in a theme game before (Kingdom hearts mafia: viewtopic.php?f=56&t=12809&start=4275 check role pm 13) Coincidentally that miller was a town miller tracker. Go figure. The miller player was a strong asset to the town in that game (not by night actions, but by day play) and I would like to give Sven the same chance.

This post was awesome as fuck; I loved it. I think that way that he handled the miller claim was better than what any of us did, honestly, and I like him treating me like a petulant child while he did his own this. His questions, while not horribly significant or ridiculous, were also a good followup to him urging to look elsewhere; that attempt to get people talking about other things felt valid.

He even implied you would have to take one you probably would not like (miller) with the one you would like (tracker). I don't think it was a tell at all and is weak reasoning. Additionally it actually makes a lot of sense as it shows me his frustration at the heat a miller claim brings but also acknowledges it as a "cool role" at the same time. That post is one of the main reasons I suspect he is town.

This makes a lot of sense, actually.

@Nacho You are being to obvious with what your doing here. Thus no effect.

I liked this post too.

232: I probably understand more roles than anyone in this thread. Trust me on that one.

And this one. I danced around like I was the king of setup spec in Poetic Justice when people weren't listening to me, and him standing behind it the way he did is nice.

Really Nacho? Are you town this game?

This is the type of "confronting town leaders" I really like. Not discrediting, but picked up on me playing up the Miller Tracker biz for reaction's sake and immediately attacked me on it. Consistent with him being a little behind, picking up on me overplaying the whole situation and attacking me for it despite "Nacho is town" on pretty much every other post. I liked it a lot.

You do it to yourself. Fine you can be town. Do me a favor and get varsoon to answer my case while I am gone for memorial day weekend.

Liked this too. Seriously doubt it's coming from scum.

A little too tired to give him the proper rundown, but pretty much the only thing holding me back from putting him in townblock is being caught up. Get caught up; your posts this game are good and I need your perspective a little more.

Am I missing something the rest of you guys see? Please enlighten me if so, because this is the one post above all others keeping me from dumping Nacho in the scum bucket.

~ wayne

[spinachattack]

Protip: don't take any stock in protips that self proclaim non scum. Especially when they reiterate it so many times...

FoS: Ghostlin

~Wayne

[spinachattack]

@Nacho That's not at all what I said. I see plenty of compelling arguments either way. That's just the one post which has nailed you to my town board. As of now anyhow.

[spinachattack]

Protip: don't take any stock in protips that self proclaim non scum. Especially when they reiterate it so many times...

FoS: Ghostlin

~Wayne

*Yawns* Shy of being a mason, I'm about the closest thing to a confirmed townie in this game, so I have no fucks to give here.

Lol! You're gonna have to provide some evidence here! Or are you saying that because your neighbor flipped blue scum? If that's the case I find it highly plausible for you to be red scum so the scum teams have some crosstalk to take each other off the path of the other.

You say Orc went on And on about how he wanted to kill Varsoon. The corollary to that is you pushed hard in disagreement. Otherwise he wouldn't have had to keep beating that dead horse. I'd even go out on a limb to say you have his mirror role.

You gotta do better than 'I'm town because I am'. That shit don't fly.

[spinachattack]

The silence is deafening...

UNVOTE ANDRIUS

VOTE GHOSTLIN

[spinachattack]

EBWOP ~wayne

[spinachattack]

Yep. I did nothing at the end of day one. Well except for the fact I gave you reason to look at Orc who everyone was sheeping. Oh yeah and I nailed the lid on RachMarie before she could come up with some bullshit story. I mean if she had the time to post all this:

I am going to get some sleep been up most of the night so I could get some computer time while NS is sleeping but I am totally wiped now. I will be doing more with reads n such

BTW no one hammer til I get a chance to claim n post my reads please

Remember that I am sharing a computer atm.

And since the day started it is not like there is not time to sort things out.



Pedit

seered?

you mean a cop result? A seer does werewolf guilties and town innocents, a cop can read mafia members.

She had time to do an honest reveal. Since she had to sleep on it she was obviously trying to come up with a fake claim.

All I recall out of you is a lot gratuitous swearing and pointing out people whom you think suck at this game. In all fairness I haven't ISO'd you (yet), but your self proclaimed "Hai gaiz, I'm obv town gosh" with the weak reasoning of your scum neighbor somehow proving you're town, while simultaneously working it into most of your posts today that you are town over and over is enough for now. I'll ISO later and I'm sure come up with more. God knows others have viewed you scum before me this game.

[spinachattack]

So in short you're saying <gloss over the points that we've done our part in spades> and we still suck. That about right?

[spinachattack]

Mafiascum

Null
3. Andrius
12. Metal Sonic- so many posts, especially after page 60, lynch for 1925 alone, 2607 meltdown
10. Ser Arthur Dayne 2962 walkin with the scum lean
17. Nachomamma8- connected to Sajin 1955


Town
5. BROseidon-
9. GuyInFreezer-
18. TiphaineDeath-


Red Scum
8. Ghostlin- neighbor of Orc who conf scum
20. Varsoon- 2015 did that some still need to do our own but that is pretty damning, 2094- wtf? Last two paragraphs complete shit trying too hard to convince he's town, 2189 like a continuation of 2094, 2960 a bit bold in his scummitude there, 2967 lolwut, 2984 attempting to derail scum wagon, 2912 from BnB gives good thought train on clearing him though

Blue Scum
Nothing hard; one of Andrius, Nacho, or Metal Sonic in order of suspicion

Sorry, but I can't give up town role thoughts, but here ya go @Ghostlin.

[spinachattack]

Um didn't spinach had me as scum before?

Yes, I had you in my scum pile at one point. Are you really complaining that I found reason to take you out of it?

˜wayne

[spinachattack]

Question before I vote. Do we want to utilize the full 13 days we have to work with? I'm starting to see this go in circles. With the lynch having been pretty much decided, I'm having doubts if there's going to be anything overly productive this day phase?

What's everyone's thoughts on Andy? The whole Andy/Orc thing still has me bothered.

Same thing with Ghostlin (calling it now, double scum neighbors with one on each team). What bothers me most about him is what he said about Orc ranting on and on about how he wanted Varsoon dead. It still strikes me that Orc would have had no reason to do as much if there wasn't some conflict on the subject in their QT. Varsoon's flip should shed some of light on that subject.

UNVOTE: Ghostlin

VOTE: Varsoon

That's L-1 if I can count better than Nacho

[spinachattack]

Question before I vote. Do we want to utilize the full 13 days we have to work with? I'm starting to see this go in circles. With the lynch having been pretty much decided, I'm having doubts if there's going to be anything overly productive this day phase?

I thought I'd want to slow this day down because of the revelations to my D1 reads.
And then I realized that nah, not really.

You realize you just showed your hand, right? You didn't get that badge for being a slouch at this game. Much respect for that. If we lynch town, 2 town are killed by scum, and another by misguided vig it's game over scum wins. You've been hard on me throughout the game and then all of a sudden today you like me for town. I've been pretty susceptible to buddying in the past and I'm sure you read enough of that one game to know it. What was said earlier was right. With your credentials, as scum I would have just used my strongman kill on you and been done with it N1 if you were town. But you're still alive and kickin' 3 days in...

I would like to compelle the likely (imo) odd night Cop to come forward with their reads now lest the town lose the game. This could very well be LYLO.

UNVOTE: VARSOON

VOTE: NACHO

[spinachattack]

10-1 town lynch-2 town NK-1 town vig=6 players left

next day 3/3

lynch one 3T/2S at best

NK 2 more town game
NK 1 more town game

Looks like LYLO to me.

[spinachattack]

Fair enough. MS could be a bullshit claim. Best case is still just one more day. Would you agree to LyLo eve then? Perhaps MyLo? It's still not as early into the game as it might appear at face value.

[spinachattack]

Why would blue strongman kill me...?

I was just saying what I would have done N1 if I were scum and saw you as town. Blue strongman can't kill you now; she's already dead.

LOL the pedit. At least we can both agree Vars is deadman walking.

[spinachattack]

But 3427 was very much a set up for a post like 3428. I realized we were closer to the end than I thought and felt it a good time to do a little fishing. I'm just surprised it was you who was 3428.

[spinachattack]

Thanks for that Andy. Never good to assume.

[spinachattack]

Good catch if you're saying you think he's the last blue team. Getting the last of them would definitely change the landscape of this game since it would eliminate a NK.

[spinachattack]

Um didn't spinach had me as scum before?

Yes, I had you in my scum pile at one point. Are you really complaining that I found reason to take you out of it?

˜wayne

Magical out-of-nowhere read changes always makes me go paranoid.

I understand, but I really think it would be best for you if I didn't point it out but I will if I must...

[spinachattack]

Fuck it. It's late in the game and you've asked me twice now this morning why I took you out of my scum bucket. The chance of you being able to use your role again is shaky at best anyhow. It's because you crumbed in several places that you're the other Cop and I picked up on it. You used your role on me and Varsoon so far from what I can tell. You cleared us both as town. Now, do you have any other reads?

[spinachattack]

Yep. This is getting nowhere. Everyone is playing too guarded to get any real discussion going.

UNVOTE NACHO

VOTE VARSOON

Get our flip and see where to go from here?

[spinachattack]

Interesting having only 1 NK. Possibilities of Blue team being eliminated and we're only dealing with red vs. one sum team did the math and decided to hold their kill?

[spinachattack]

Tiphane, in your 3346 you say MS is scum

Then in your 3348 you say that MS is in your "to be checked out" pile? What?

[spinachattack]

Wasn't. I was trying to do some more fishing. Thanks for throwing that rock in the water :/

Anyhow, I would really like to discuss Nacho today.

~wayne

EBWOP- yeah, TD too.

[spinachattack]

Option one: It was a protective role, and they didn't protect ghostlin. The only other person I can see being reasonably protected last night is our claimed joat. One of the shots could have been on andi and thus prevented, this is a credible option.
Option two: It was a role block based role. If this happened, role blocker come forward now with your target, we have likely caught scum unless roleblocker missed and one of the other options is true.
Option three: We have a BP in the game who someone tried to shoot. Relatively straightforward.
Option four: Scum Crossshot, I can see this as a possibility because the kill was a conf town.
Option five: The blue scum team is dead. I haven't done the math on this but in a twenty person game if there were only four scum total wouldn't they likely all be on the same team? I know this is setup spec, and that is dangerous, but 3 and 3 feels more likely, Simply because I've never seen a multiball game with 3-2, and 4-4 would be mega-imba.
Option six: Scum held their kill. Honestly this one seems like the least likely, just because like, why would you do it? Spinach suggesting this sets off alarm bells for me, may need to go re-read tmt.

I'm fine with mass claim and I like Nacho for today's lynch.

wayne

[spinachattack]

I need to know one thing before I ISO please. Is English the second language for anyone left in the game?

[spinachattack]

Me.

Anybody else that you know of?

[spinachattack]

Anyhow, in doing ISO work on every living player I will be using proven techniques that we used while doing investigations while I worked in the prison system. As flaky as some of the sound, they're all quite legit. Instead of spending time trying to convince you of these techniques, I'll just link you to a source where you can read it from someone else...

http://liespotting.com/liespotting-basics/words/

[spinachattack]

TiphaneDeath

Ok, I'm back, I am going to explain this to you all one more time and if you can't figure out the bloody obviousness of it all I'm going to give up because you're all a bunch of bloody dumbfucks.

Fact the first: I have never been in a game where scum fake claim miller early. After an investigation, sure, but I have never seen the gambit actually happen.
Fact the second: Nacho voting sven for his miller claim felt horribly opportunistic because of fact one.
Fact the third: When Nacho presented me evidence that this kind of thing does in fact occur, occurred in a game he was in, and is not a myth perpetuated to gain mislynches I FOUND THIS "INTERESTING" AND REMOVED MY VOTE.
Fact the fourth: The way sven is playing out this miller claim is not town. His multiple if I was scum if I was town posts really ping the scumdar for me, thus I voted him. I completely disagree with the stated fact that any miller claim creates wifom, that's bullshit.
Fact the fifth: This game moved so fast that when I got back from rehearsal last night I saw much more than I expected, some votes on me, and was already under an awful lot of outside the game pressure. This is not an excuse for that terrible post, merely an explanation.

Now that I'm done yelling at the people voting me, maybe I can worry about the rest of this stupid thread.

I'll admit to some amount of skimming here, I'm doing my best to read it all, but honestly a day and a half for this much is not reasonable. My best work comes from re-reads anyway so I'll work with what I've got for now. Aside from the sven scumishness two things stand out to me from the rest of this, post number 588, and 742.

588 screams scum at me. I don't know if this is completely true, see aformentioned skimming, but it feels like ghostlin is rehashing a bunch of points other people have made to make them look like his own thoughts. do not like this.

742 on the other hand earns my vote. We have self centered, wifom based, wagon hopping. If that isn't a bloody scumtell I don't know what is. And if you call omgus on me so help me I will reach throught he computer and punch you in the nose. You do not get to get off with that kind of bull because you happen to be voting the guy who caught you at it.

Vote Varsoon

Fact the sixth- when people are being deceitful they stop using contractions to stress their "truthfulness"
Fact the seventh- when people are being deceitful they speak in strict chronological order
Fact the eighth- when people are being deceitful they take a defensive tone; all of TD's fact the # posts were defensive as shit. What followed in the quote were his personal opinions and he reverted to normal speech patterns.

I will not lurk X_X.

No actually varsoon if you had continued to push me after that post of mine I would have felt much less certain of my read on you.

See when I specifically tell you doing something would be omgus, i.e something generally considered anti town and bad, if you are willing to do it anyway that probably means your read is real and you honestly believe me to be scum. When I confront you with that obvious setback and you drop it, it feels like either your read was weak in the first place or your read was fake. I'm going for option two here.

His catchup posts feel like they are all made of sheeping other people already stated opinions. Don't like it.

Again, lack of contractions until it gets back to his opinion.

I quite honestly have no idea what is being discussed here, and suspect about half the playerlist is with me X_x.

When someone's lying they over emphasize their truthfulness

Ok, Ima spell this out nice an clear in small simple words so maybe people other than nacho will pay attention. I want you to tell me in what reasonable universe a thoughtful isolation read takes less than a minute. Even go read my iso from that point back, for content not just skimming, and see how long it takes you.

This is a bonified bloody scumslip and I don't get how you people aren't seeing it.

You can't all be scum, and I'm reasonably sure you aren't all stupid either, so somebody tell me why I'm wrong.

Overly defensive...

There's plenty more, but I see no need beating a dead horse. If you want more examples, pick up his ISO at 1714. TiphaineDeath is scum.

[spinachattack]

Okay ISOed MS. I totally agree with whoever said that the TD vote where he voted after one minute of saying he was going to ISO someone is scummy and artificial as hell. I also really don't like their early play where he seemed to not interact with anyone really and just throw up reads without reasoning. While I have done that in the past in large games just so I have something to look back on if I'm ever lost, he does nothing to really push his scumreads. Definitely willing to vote.

Will ISO some others later today.

PS: I'm in favor of a 2 lynch just so they would stop posting.

"one minute iso is scummy"

"reading fast is scummy"

Well no I think the point I'm trying to get across (and probably others?) is that saying you're going to ISO someone and then one minute later vote them means you really had no actual interesting in getting a read on them, and that you had already determined they're scumread and put in that BS about "ISOing them" to look like you're a townie genuinely attempting to figure out someone's alignment.

Heh, good catch on Rach.

Gonna ISO Orc and Rach later today for relational clues, and maybe I'll get to 2 also (though I dread the day I'll have to read that ISO). Guessing it's 3/3/14, which makes the most logical sense.

Not many posts (12 in all), but in 1/4 of them he is overemphasizing. The rest of his posts are without content and/or hedging. SAD is probably scum.

[spinachattack]

Question before I vote. Do we want to utilize the full 13 days we have to work with? I'm starting to see this go in circles. With the lynch having been pretty much decided, I'm having doubts if there's going to be anything overly productive this day phase?

I thought I'd want to slow this day down because of the revelations to my D1 reads.
And then I realized that nah, not really.

You realize you just showed your hand, right? You didn't get that badge for being a slouch at this game. Much respect for that. If we lynch town, 2 town are killed by scum, and another by misguided vig it's game over scum wins. You've been hard on me throughout the game and then all of a sudden today you like me for town. I've been pretty susceptible to buddying in the past and I'm sure you read enough of that one game to know it. What was said earlier was right. With your credentials, as scum I would have just used my strongman kill on you and been done with it N1 if you were town. But you're still alive and kickin' 3 days in...

I stand by this. Nacho's is scum.

[spinachattack]

GiF I can't apply the same principles to and have no experience playing with. I find it odd all the Cop crumbs he seems to have laid down, yet says he's not Cop. A little help here would be nice. Everyone else comes up town. I was very surprised that MetalSonic came up town because I was sold on him being scum. So much so I read his full ISO three times. At the end of the day, though, town he is.

VOTE TIPHANEDEATH

[spinachattack]

Oh yeah

~wayne

[spinachattack]

Sheeping is not my style and

I'd rather find my own reason to vote/jump on wagon.

Even though I had a urge to just hardcore sheep Nacho/you lot of times.

Erm I probably need something stronger than #1233 to be convinced

because I see replacing-out as null.

Also I have some games to catch up so I'll return with my thoughts on AJ later.

@Nacho: re: aj, ok. Re:cabd, ok. I can follow you there, even though

I'm kinda reluctant to accept it since I didn't came up with those myself.

Hey varsoon. Where are you?

GIF tell me what you are making of the game

idc what everyone says Varsoon is town.

MS is also town.
AJ can be scum even though i would like to find my own reason on him.
My townreads so far haven't changed yet.

spinach slot looks better imo.

I still think Sajin is town even with his awkward convo with Venmar.
I still think TD is scum, but it's just a gut now.

I'm being lazy but I just can't save myself from being tired tonight.

P-Edit: Oh that. I'll read it soon.

[spinachattack]

Of course, of you're really not Cop the ones about having the need to find your own reason could also be scum slips. Town tends to act with a hive mind while scum tend to be more i dependent thinkers so tying a scum team together is more difficult. So, which is it?

~wayne

[spinachattack]

Eh.
I just had a uber-strong townread on Varsoon after talking with him at D1 and some read progression.
Now I know how to crumb cop next time I roll one :3

^Lol! That too!

[spinachattack]

Sheeping rally isn't a strong scum tell. It's a double edged sword really. Without some form of sheeping a lynch would never happen, while sheeping without a strong set of town reads to work off can hand the game to scum. That makes it null IMO.

[spinachattack]

Anyhow, how do you like TD?

[spinachattack]

Hey thread... Know what scum does? Defend a singular vote on themselves! They also promote mass claim like scum would actually claim scum. WIFOM is what scum need at this point and mass claiming would supply all of that they need.

One: I'm a guy.
Two: Posting like this is not a scumtell, it's just a way to do shit.
Three: @bro Yes, MS is scum is scum is scum and given the strength of that read I see no reason in hell not to act upon it before giving the scum a perfect roadmap of night kills.

"a way to do shit"- a slang term meaning to do nothing at all.

Saying "is scum" three times in a row does not a strong read make. In this case it's incorrect.

Four: Spinach was voting nacho yesterday and didn't get much done.

I, not someone wholly beloved by the town at this stage

, poke at him and a scum read on me materializes out of butfuck nowhere. Coincidence? I think not. Happy to vote spinach today as well as MS, but if we are killing spinach we should Massclaim.

Play on sympathy. Scum does that a lot too...

Five: Why is my D1 play terrible GIF? Why is my MS push terrible. What are the

bloody

things that I am saying that don't make sense to you. I have acted and continue to act in a logical manner. As is my standard response to pressure, explain yourself or piss off.

God, GIF might be a spinach scumbuddy :/.

Over emphasis; play on fear and more WIFOM in that order.

Now, the lie detector says...

Liars will repeat a question verbatim. Or in this case turn a statement which has been backed up with reason into a question ignoring said reason.

Liars will take a guarded tone.

Liars love euphemisms.

Liars overemphasize their truthfulness.

Liars use long introductions but skip over main events.

Liars give very specific denials.

[spinachattack]

@TiphaneDeath posting in an ordered list is fine and you're right, is not a scum tell. However, that's not how you posted in what I quoted. I could have given two shits about the numbers, it's the fact that they are in precise chronological order that's the scum tell. Don't confuse the issue.

[spinachattack]

Red/Blue, no idea. I'm going with TD because he's the strongest lead I have and I know we gotta hit scum for lynch today.

[spinachattack]

SAD could also draw the modkill for inactivity so there's little incentive to vote that way at this point as well.

[spinachattack]

Here, let me post the link for the selective reader again.

http://liespotting.com/liespotting-basics/words/

[spinachattack]

And then the content of that link as well in case he can't be bothered with clicking his mouse

Liars will repeat a question verbatim.

Hey Charles, did you send the email to Jackie? Did I send the email to Jackie? If this is Charles’s response, you have your answer—he didn’t send it yet. Repeating a question in full is a common stalling tactic used by people looking for an extra moment to prepare their deceptive reply. In natural conversation, people will sometimes repeat part of a question, but restating the entire question is highly awkward and unnecessary—they clearly heard you the first time.

Liars will take a guarded tone.

If Charles had replied to the direct question by lowering his voice and asking, What do you mean?, a lie may well have been in the works. A suspicious or guarded approach isn’t usually called for, and may indicate that he’s concealing something—whether it’s the truthful answer or his attitude toward you for asking the question in the first place.

Liars won’t use contractions in their denials.

Bill Clinton provides the classic example of what interrogators call a “non-contracted denial” when he said “I did not have sexual relations with that woman.” The extra emphasis in the denial is unnecessary if someone is telling the truth. I didn’t have sex with her is how the honest person is likely to phrase his claim of innocence. Clinton said a lot more than he realized with his words.

Liars tell stories in strict chronology.

To keep their stories straight, liars tend to stick to chronological accounts when relating an event. They don’t want to get tripped up by an out-of-place detail—there’s enough to think about already. But this isn’t how we talk when being truthful. We relate stories in the way we remember them, not in strict chronological order. That’s because memorable events carry an emotional component too. Often we’ll lead with the most searing emotional moment, and jump around in time.

Liars love euphemisms.

It’s human nature not to implicate ourselves in wrongdoing. This holds true even for liars, who will shy away from dwelling on their deception if possible. One way they do this is opting for softer language—instead of saying “I didn’t steal the purse” they may say “I didn’t take the purse.” If you ask someone a direct question about their involvement in an incident and they change your words to something softer, raise your deception antennae.

Liars overemphasize their truthfulness.

“To tell you the truth…” “Honestly…” “I swear to you…” Oh, if only it were so! When people use these bolstering statements to emphasize their honesty, there’s a good chance they are hiding something. Learning to baseline someone’s normal behavior is important in situations such as this: You want to listen for normal or harmless use of such phrases. There’s no need to add them if you really are telling the truth, so be on guard.

Liars avoid or confuse pronouns.

We use a fair amount of pronouns in normal conversation. They are a sign of comfortable speech, and they may disappear or be misused by someone who is trying to be extra careful with his words. A liar may say “You don’t bill hours that you didn’t work” instead of making the clear first- person statement: “I don’t bill hours I didn’t work.”

Liars use long introductions but skip over main events.

When a liar wants to build credibility, she will pad her story with as much factual content as possible. The Israeli researcher Avinoam Sapir found that deceptive individuals will add more detail around the prologue of a story, but gloss over the main event where the deception comes into play. Careful listeners can pick up on this lopsided storytelling style and use the BASIC method to zero in on the missing details with specific questions.

Liars give very specific denials.

We’ve already discussed the human impulse to avoid implicating ourselves. So we can expect liars to be very particular in what they say and don’t say. Truth-tellers have no problem issuing categorical denials—I never cheated anyone in my whole life—where as the liar will choose his words ever so carefully.

Liars hedge their statements.

We hear them in court testimony, political hearings and TV confessional interviews all the time: qualifying statements that leave an out for the person on the hot seat. “As far as I recall…” “If you really think about it…” “What I remember is…” Hedged statements aren’t an absolute indicator of deception, but an overuse of such qualifying phrases certainly should raise suspicion that a person isn’t being totally up front with what he or she knows.

As far as you not hearing of these tells- I betcha I could fill the Pacific Ocean with things you've never heard of. Same goes for anybody, including myself. Your ignorance of them doesn't make them unreliable...

[spinachattack]

@GIF I think I've explained MS scum a whole frackload of times, but I'll see if I can go and round em all up in one pile by the end of today. You really need to answer my questions, like, in your next post.

@Spinach-At this point I am honestly confused... This precise chronological order thing is not something I have ever heard of as a tell of any kind. I sincerely suspect you pulled this out of your ass.

Hey spinach, guess what I didn't do? Promote a bloody massclaim!

I said we shouldn't mass claim today, L2R. This defense isn't about the vote, it's about the case. I tend to give zero shits about votes on me, but cases, those I will always defend. Always-always-always.

I think you have misread my meaning, A way to do shit is meant to be read as "A way to do things." No, but saying it three times should get through to people how strong my read is, I would think the monstrous amount of MS's fuckups and the few relational tells from this game would make up the strong read. But that's just me.

I'm not playing on sympathy you dip, I'm pointing out that because you couldn't assault the unassailable nacho you went after something easier instead. Well lucky you something easier decided to tell you to go spin.

How is that quoted post 3503 a play on fear or Wifom. that is me calling out GIF and putting my thoughts down. The fact that we still hasn't answered does not help his case, or yours.

I have never heard of these lie-detector things of yours, They sound like ass, as do you.

Really?...

Four: Spinach was voting nacho yesterday and didn't get much done. I, not someone wholly beloved by the town at this stage, poke at him and a scum read on me materializes out of butfuck nowhere. Coincidence? I think not. Happy to vote spinach today as well as MS,

but if we are killing spinach we should Massclaim.

And this is where I say LaL!

[spinachattack]

Didn't see the link the first time.

I don't know what to say that I haven't already said here. I can understand why many of these things might be true, but just because you've managed to tack on these labels to my normal modes of speech doesn't make what I'm saying a lie.

Pedit:
The only reason I don't want a massclaim is because as far as I am concerned MS is conf scum, and thus with a gaurunteed scum-kill there is no reason to mass claim yet. If anyone else is the lynch for today there is no particular reason not to massclaim. You'll notice that I am not currently voting you because I WOULD STILL RATHER LYNCH MS and thus NOT MASSCLAIM.

What I quoted of you (particularly the larger post) contains examples of both normal speech patterns and abnormal speech patterns (I'll break it down if need be), so what were you being deceptive about?

[spinachattack]

Well, because this screams deceptive.

Ok, I'm back, I am going to explain this to you all one more time and if you can't figure out the bloody obviousness of it all I'm going to give up because you're all a bunch of bloody dumbfucks.

Fact the first: I have never been in a game where scum fake claim miller early. After an investigation, sure, but I have never seen the gambit actually happen.
Fact the second: Nacho voting sven for his miller claim felt horribly opportunistic because of fact one.
Fact the third: When Nacho presented me evidence that this kind of thing does in fact occur, occurred in a game he was in, and is not a myth perpetuated to gain mislynches I FOUND THIS "INTERESTING" AND REMOVED MY VOTE.
Fact the fourth: The way sven is playing out this miller claim is not town. His multiple if I was scum if I was town posts really ping the scumdar for me, thus I voted him. I completely disagree with the stated fact that any miller claim creates wifom, that's bullshit.
Fact the fifth: This game moved so fast that when I got back from rehearsal last night I saw much more than I expected, some votes on me, and was already under an awful lot of outside the game pressure. This is not an excuse for that terrible post, merely an explanation.

While this is your normal speech pattern, all in the same post.

Now that I'm done yelling at the people voting me, maybe I can worry about the rest of this stupid thread.

I'll admit to some amount of skimming here, I'm doing my best to read it all, but honestly a day and a half for this much is not reasonable. My best work comes from re-reads anyway so I'll work with what I've got for now. Aside from the sven scumishness two things stand out to me from the rest of this, post number 588, and 742.

588 screams scum at me. I don't know if this is completely true, see aformentioned skimming, but it feels like ghostlin is rehashing a bunch of points other people have made to make them look like his own thoughts. do not like this.

742 on the other hand earns my vote. We have self centered, wifom based, wagon hopping. If that isn't a bloody scumtell I don't know what is. And if you call omgus on me so help me I will reach throught he computer and punch you in the nose. You do not get to get off with that kind of bull because you happen to be voting the guy who caught you at it.

Vote Varsoon

And because often, when in the moment and responding to direct questioning a person screws up without even realizing it...

[spinachattack]

Don't know. I'm not you, but it must not be in the town's interest since you can't answer.

[spinachattack]

SA's argument, SA's motherfucking argument?

His entire so called argument is that I was being deceptive about something, he has no idea what I was being deceptive about, and can point out half of one post in which he is sure I am being deceptive. And in fact the only thing he is using to say I am deceptive is

some weird study based on speech patterns. that's like one step up form gut, at best.

Howzabout dis bro, I aint good at reading hydras, and there was so much posting I didn't read most of the thread. 2 was one of the most active posters and seemed logical-ish, that's why I assumed he was town.

Is anyone listening to this shitstorm?

Bro-spinach, thoughts on MS and GIF, ASAP.

Yes. So weird and far out there that the FBI recognizes and uses the exact same techniques in verbal analysis to find people being deceptive.

Read it all of you like, or just scroll to the last section about verbal cues...

http://www.au.af.mil/au/awc/awcgate/fbi ... ect_01.pdf

[spinachattack]

If you prefer theory (bored of that shit, but whatever) just since I've been interrogating you- AtE, WIFOM, OMGUS a plenty, LaL, no conviction. You can search the last couple of pages just fine by yourself and I don't feel like spending the time to quote and hilight the multitude of examples of each. Heaven forbid, I bring proof over theory. Bad me.

[spinachattack]

Meh, I'll do a few before I pass out.

God, GIF might be a spinach scumbuddy :/.

AtE and WIFOM

I suggest lynching MS today and massclaiming tomorrow.

+

.

Hey spinach, guess what I didn't do? Promote a bloody massclaim!

LaL

It is not possible for bro-gif-spinach-ms to all be scum. It is however possible for all of them to be stupid. Can I talk to somebody else please?

No conviction. Throws shit at everyone other than himself, Nacho, and SAD hoping some will stick somewhere. And a healthy OMGUS sandwich (there a a deli full of n these over the last few pages... Plenty where these came from, but I'm fucking sleepy and going to bed.

~wayne

Edit- interesting neither Nacho nor SAD have weighed in...

[spinachattack]

I get it Nacho. You're saying TD is on your team and we need to lynch floatie SAD because he's the last blue, right?

[spinachattack]

Keep forgetting to login as Spinach.. Sorry

[spinachattack]

4) Starts pushing a case on me because my scumread on you is TOO STRONG to be coming from town,

even though it's in neither scumteam's interest to mislynch today

.

So you're thinking I'm scum that's on the team you're not, or?

Holy hell! He did something productive! Nacho is looking out for scumteam's interests and not town interest. This doesn't clear SAD as scum, but it confirms Nacho is. In fact I just got through doing vote analysis and saw SAD was on ZERO wagons, so he can be conf scum as well along with Nacho.

Other interesting points from vote analysis is that MS and TD have each been on just one wagon each, BRO scored the exact same as SAD, and GIF and Andy are the only players who can be conf town.

SAD or Nacho? Who are we lynching today?

Quoting for ISO

[spinachattack]

Hi andi, what do you think of my proposed scumteams?

MS=blue

Spinach/bro or Spinach/GIF as red?

Yes Andy. What do you think of TiphaneDeath throwing a big pile of shit and hoping it sticks on anyone but himself? I too would be interested in your thoughts on this.

And where has Nacho been

lurking

hiding the past couple of days?

Quoting for ISO

[spinachattack]

Ummm... We're only on page 141. I'm assuming 147 is the post? Who else do you like Nacho? If TD isn't one of them, why not? SAD is super low hanging fruit. Hell, he may even get the MKay if he keeps the no postie thing up. Why target him when he might go for free?

Quoting for ISO

[spinachattack]

Er... if I had more reads I would certainly share them, do you not think? I'm not secretly holding back on SUPER SECRET READS. It's dumb to think that?

It's also dumb to think that you somehow have three scumreads, a townread, and nothing else. What's your read on spinach?

Enemy of you enemy is now your friend? Nice!

[spinachattack]

Enemy of you enemy is now your friend? Nice!

I've been calling you town for a while now. How the hell does this make any sense whatsoever?

Because its a nice out if someone else does your work? You'd been calling me town for a while when I gave you reason to cast doubt on me (read started attacking you) so you need some other tool to take me out? That's my thought process anyhow.

[spinachattack]

Do you not think if I'm scum I would actually BS a reason and lay a vote so I look like I have reads instead of when people look back they see I haven't voted once? Hahaha your tunnel vision is hilarious.

It wasn't

my

logic I used to come to the conclusion. I realize I have plenty to learn, so I started reading theory. In there, I stumbled across Scumputer and being that I understand numbers better than people (placed out of math requirements as a freshman at Texas A&M) it made perfect sense to me. Scoring a zero this late in the game is a very strong scum tell. You scored a zero.

So, TD can go tomorrow.

UNVOTE TD

VOTE SAD

[spinachattack]

Do you not think if I'm scum I would actually BS a reason and lay a vote so I look like I have reads instead of when people look back they see I haven't voted once? Hahaha your tunnel vision is hilarious.

It wasn't

my

logic I used to come to the conclusion. I realize I have plenty to learn, so I started reading theory. In there, I stumbled across Scumputer and being that I understand numbers better than people (placed out of math requirements as a freshman at Texas A&M) it made perfect sense to me. Scoring a zero this late in the game is a very strong scum tell. You scored a zero.

So, TD can go tomorrow.

UNVOTE TD

VOTE SAD

[spinachattack]

Lol double post...

[spinachattack]

wayne i've played with nacho in multiple games before and his town meta is way cleaner than that

Explain? You lost me with that.

[spinachattack]

http://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?title=Scumputer

[spinachattack]

You slipped. That simple. Pretty much nothing short of that or a night action reveal would have made me change my read on you but.... there it is.

What happens if redscum flip?

Ugh!!! A 3v3 and I gotta step in to point out the obvious??? NACHO HAS CONCEDED THAT HE SLIPPED, IS SCUM, AND IS NOW JUST CRUMBING HE IS RED. If it has to be Blue, he isn't the tree to be barking up.

[spinachattack]

SAD is town =/= strong town

SAD cannot be my buddy, meaning he's not red. And he's absolutely convinced that you're the blue.
So...

And here too... Damn some people are slow on the uptake.

[spinachattack]

Wait, nacho is crumbing red, where. Help me I'm lost.

In the two places I quoted.

[spinachattack]

You slipped. That simple. Pretty much nothing short of that or a night action reveal would have made me change my read on you but.... there it is.

What happens if redscum flip?

Ugh!!! A 3v3 and I gotta step in to point out the obvious??? NACHO HAS CONCEDED THAT HE SLIPPED, IS SCUM, AND IS NOW JUST CRUMBING HE IS RED. If it has to be Blue, he isn't the tree to be barking up.

well who's going over? TD or nacho?

spinach
this is what it feels like when scum buddy up to you

Yup. I know. More experience there than I would like to admit. You were last on my lynch list, I really hope to play with you again. You've expanded my knowledge with this game a lot. That said, this is my lynch list.

Nacho>TD>SAD

UNVOTE SAD

VOTE NACHO

If that doesn't clear it, then BRO. He tied you for highest score of alive non conf town on the Scumputer I borrowed. Oh, and cross kill won't happen. There are too many conf town to choose from, but a kill could be blocked.

[spinachattack]

And

I hope if I get lynched and if I flip town,

you will drop that BRO suspicion and lynch the fuck out of MS if we can still somehow pull off the win. A mislynch means that blue scum needs to hit redscum, which shouldn't be that hard considering scum

will

be in {Metal Sonic, Ser Arthur Dayne, TiphaineDeath}.

Got it the first time. Do you really think I won't be dead by tomorrow anyhow?

[spinachattack]

Of course, they could just go for the co-win. That would be better than a no win, yes?

[spinachattack]

8-2=6
Mislynch
6-2=4
No lynch
Cowin

[spinachattack]

They can with a mislynch tomorrow. Or they can be stupid and hand the game over to town when they finally have the advantage.

Pedit~ but it'll be 4: 2T, 1R, 1B

[spinachattack]

Why did you say that TD vs MS was town v town, BRO?
I also don't like that the only conclusion that he makes is that AJ was a scumpartner and the group of people were town.

I wasn't thinking about the multiball possibility

Lolwut?!?. Multiball has been KNOWN for how long now? And you still want me to disregard BRO @Nacho?

[spinachattack]

NVM OOC. That was in reply from before two scum teams were known. Missed that.

[spinachattack]

aaaand time runs out. I'm eager to see Andrius's wall when he gets around to making it.

Lost me...

[spinachattack]

For 10 minutes

[spinachattack]

Nil. He came up just behind nacho and bro on vote analysis.

[spinachattack]

Ugh. Null

[spinachattack]

3 minutes. This is turning into a very short scummy conversation...

Sounds a lot like fishing for NK targets

[spinachattack]

Scumputer takes a bit to explain, but I'll do it real quick. Won't have time for questions though.

[spinachattack]

1. Find wagons that get close to lynch

2. Remove confirmed town and dead players from wagon

3. Each wagon is worth 100 points (if two people are left after eliminating said players they get 50 points each, if 4 then 25 points each)

4. Do this with every wagon

5. Add up every player's points

6. Too high/too low probable scum.

[spinachattack]

This works off bandwagonning theory and analysis. You can find that in the wiki here

http://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?tit ... sane_Tells

[spinachattack]

~75% of the way to lynch

Gotta wake up for work in 4 hours. Cya.

[spinachattack]

And you choose both significant wagons and lynch wagons. The only significant in this game has been lynch wagons. Now, goodnight.

[spinachattack]

Derp, epiphany...

UNVOTE NACHO

Just in case I'm off on my reads. Prefer coal to windmills. Waiting for Andy to have a say, and don't want to leave it open for quicklynch if Nacho isn't scum.

[spinachattack]

T
Nacho
BRO
SAD

S
TD
MS
GiF

Once I pointed out what looked like a scum slip, both TD and MS should have voted for Nacho if they truly believed it. However, all they said was pretty much 'haha gotcha' and left it at that with no vote. While dozing off, I was thinking about the game (pretty sad, right) and had that epiphany.

Along with that, MS was itching to talk to me about GiF. As soon as I said he was null on my card, MS forgot why he wanted to talk about GiF at all and switched to theory instead. It looked fishy at the time, but I couldn't quite put my finger on it...

Now however, MS/GiF team and TD solo are my thoughts. Oddly, that leaves SAD town. For now. A mislynch on any one of those three would change that.

Anyhow, that's where I'm at. Maybe now I can fall asleep and stay that way.

[spinachattack]

Too...Much...WIFOM...Last...Night... Made me look so sick I got sent home from work. Scumteamz are either...

Nacho/BRO TD

or

MS/GIF TD

Either way TD scum. Go with original read.

VOTE TIPHANEDEATH DEATH

[spinachattack]

And you don't have the BULDER GiF. I was listening all the way home!

[spinachattack]

Reading and driving is solo much safer than texting and driving... Lol!

[spinachattack]

I usually don't get so screwed up on WIFOM, but I had to step out of the box and take a look from a different angle here. Removing those considered conf town from the alive list, I looked at it from the perspective of what is to be gained, information wise, from any lynch if the player is town or scum.


10. Ser Arthur Dayne- nothing
12. Metal Sonic- nothing, he's done nothing but tunnel TD all game
17. Nachomamma8- loads either way
18. TiphaineDeath- nothing, he's done nothing but tunnel MS all game

Retreading back over all that from last night, Nacho did crumb red scum. His reply to me about that was hand face, which I think was more to himself than anyone else. Also, after I pointed the slip out, his whole tone changed from attacker to consolatory. So, right or wrong

UNVOTE TD

VOTE NACHO

Damn I gotta pull my head out... Quote for ISO

[spinachattack]

Just the way his posts hit me.

[spinachattack]

@Nacho

At the end of the day, it comes down to being able to get more information by lynching you regardless of your alignment than with any other viable option. Besides, if you flip town you can still win in death. Have a little faith

[spinachattack]

I have just one question for you though.

And

I hope if I get lynched and if I flip town,

you will drop that BRO suspicion and lynch the fuck out of MS if we can still somehow pull off the win. A mislynch means that blue scum needs to hit redscum, which shouldn't be that hard considering scum

will

be in {Metal Sonic, Ser Arthur Dayne, TiphaineDeath}.

What are you

really

saying here, and please don't give me in thread read shit?

[spinachattack]

UNVOTE: TiphaneDeath

VOTE: Nacho

[spinachattack]

Now that I've properly voted to get me back to where I should be, what's your take on this Nacho?

Because

im sheeping nacho

your reads are lazy and inconsistent.

Explain your sajin vote.

Speaking of sajin, where is he?

Wait. He's not here anymore
I don't remember him dying/lynched?
Brb

Oh he died n3.

Not liking this a bit, personally. Where's the town motivation in being so absent from the thread you don't even know the deaths from 3 phases ago? Scum doesn't have to read to win.

Btw, Scumputer is something new for me. Liespotting is something I've used for a while now, so it's actually part of my meta.

[spinachattack]

Ugh!!!!

UNVOTE NACHO

[spinachattack]

There were three with yours, and yeah, if Nacho isn't scum they would do that in a heartbeat.

Quote for ISO! Possss!!!

[spinachattack]

Ok, that time I had actually logged into my hydra and when I posted got a 1040 error and came back to the above...

Yeah I keep feeling like I need to post but all I can do is restate what I've said and still not have reread anything.

Anything for me otherwise? D:

Do you think Nacho is scum?

If not, do you have any stronger leads?

Do you think, even if Nacho isn't scum, that more information could be gained by lynching anyone else?

How long had you had your 'breadcrumbs' quoted and ready to post to prove your role, because you posted that pretty quickly when called out for it?

[spinachattack]

Then I'll old my vote so you have time to do that.

[spinachattack]

Oh yeah. And what do you think of the recent GiF brilliance?

[spinachattack]

Lets see...Why hasn't GiF payed close attention to the game since N3? What significant event could have possibly happened to influence that? Hmm. Well, two of the Blue team were killed leaving presumably only one. A loner has no need to pay attention to the game because everyone who isn't them is against them. Yeah.

[spinachattack]

Sorry I just went back and looked at GIF for a good long while. I'm not seeing a significant difference between his pre two dead blue scum and post two dead blue scum play. Am I blink spinach, are you gambiting? Help me out here.

While I do enjoy a good gambit, no. There's no need for it.

Because

im sheeping nacho

your reads are lazy and inconsistent.

Explain your sajin vote.

Speaking of sajin, where is he?

Wait. He's not here anymore
I don't remember him dying/lynched?
Brb

Oh he died n3.

He didn't even know Sajin was dead. That's completely missing the last 3 game cycles, and likely this cycle as well. Town has to keep up with the game. The last of a scum team doesn't.

[spinachattack]

You summed it up quite well yourself, but I'll try to lend some insight. It takes your full ISO from that point to this, so I'll leave that for others to look at instead of quoting it all here. The only things you've discussed are either whatever flavor of the moment that you decided to sheep, which requires little to no reading or shit that happened days ago.

Going through your ISO again, this raised an eyebrow as well. I noted it before, but had forgotten it all together.

Um didn't spinach had me as scum before?

Yes, I had you in my scum pile at one point. Are you really complaining that I found reason to take you out of it?

˜wayne

Magical out-of-nowhere read changes always makes me go paranoid.

I've never seen anyone be so paranoid over someone having a town read on them. It's like you thought I was lulling you to sleep so you would drop your guard only to have the rug pulled out from under you or something. It wasn't what I intended at the time, but nice foreshadowing!

[spinachattack]

Magical out-of-nowhere read changes always

makes me go paranoid.

And, where did I misrep you?

[spinachattack]

I was reading you as town at the time. You called me out on it. Twice. And then you went on to say it made you paranoid. What am I missing?

[spinachattack]

After several massive failures to catch up, I'm going to do a full reread of the thread in a bit, skimming most of the beginning. Wish me luck. I'll make some posts soon.

[spinachattack]

Good enough.

He hasn't posted in quite a while. Either here or in the QT

[spinachattack]

After several massive failures to catch up, I'm going to do a full reread of the thread in a bit, skimming most of the beginning. Wish me luck. I'll make some posts soon.

That was TMT though.

[spinachattack]

Waiting for Andy. No need to rush and he may come up with something others have missed.

How's that coming Andy?

[spinachattack]

Right now I have every intention to vote Nacho, but I do want to see what Andy comes up with first. I also think MS and TD look like they could be white flagging each other.

[spinachattack]

http://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?tit ... lag_Gambit

[spinachattack]

wat
Weren't both pushing against each other since D1?

wat
Weren't both pushing against each other since D1?

Yeah. Have either been lynched? It wouldn't even take too much tweaking of the published gambit to play it that way. Can you think of a better reason for why they've tunneled each other all game and little else? "You're scum!", "No, you're scum" has gotten them this far...

They've done shit for town. Anyhow, just a thought.

[spinachattack]

Yeah, by definition it's different, but not by that much. I mean, I've run Slayer's Gambit successfully throwing someone else under the bus to get the same reads. It takes the same kind of plays, just directed outward instead of inward. Anyhow, trying to keep discussion going during the intermission.

Speaking of which, it's to,or row night Andy. I'll be voting before I go to bed. Anything yet? And yeah, it's another epic playoff game so I understand if you've gotten a little sidetracked...

[spinachattack]

Ok

VOTE NACHO

That's L-1 Nacho. You have the floor.

[spinachattack]

UNVOTE NACHO

VOTE TD

[spinachattack]

I was just missing you and it seemed the only way to get you to post. Going off the beaten path makes scum who can taste the win fuck up. I thought you may have picked up on that for how many times I tried to get you back involved.

[spinachattack]

You still slipped red in several places. You don't have to appeal to my emotion to make me think. And I only want an answer to one question from you- why did you admit to red?

[spinachattack]

No. That's town not revealing because you wouldn't believe it anyway. My read on him didn't change. I just gambited him so others would get too comfortable and fuck up.

[spinachattack]

Yeah

[spinachattack]

Did you notice I let you dangle for a good while at L-1? I was waiting for scum hammer that never came. So TD, MS, SAD. One ML on the 3 makes me really change my read Nacho (yeah, I never trust anyone fully until endgame), but I'm happy to have you until then. I did mean to get back sooner after you started posting and got tied up somewhere. Those extra 30 minutes were an oops.

Fuckin' 'ell!

[spinachattack]

Hey, spinach nachos are pretty daned good. Don't knock it!

[spinachattack]

I am going to get some sleep been up most of the night so I could get some computer time while NS is sleeping but I am totally wiped now. I will be doing more with reads n such

BTW no one hammer til I get a chance to claim n post my reads please

Remember that I am sharing a computer atm.

And since the day started it is not like there is not time to sort things out.



Pedit

seered?

you mean a cop result? A seer does werewolf guilties and town innocents, a cop can read mafia members.

Not only does that sound grody but, ANGRY spinach nachos man, like, fire in the belly. Do. Not. Want.

Pedit: I-that, I probably should have been doing that this whole time insteadd of bitching about confusion huh? Aright it's late and I'm way tired, I'm kind of falling apart so it's sleep time. I'll go and make an actual case on you tomorrow.

Why are you being so goddamned helpful? X_x.

Is there a fucking echo in here? Helloooo, eloooo, loop, loo, lo...

[spinachattack]

Pulled pork
Refried beans
Queso blanco
Monterey Jack
SPINACH
Habanero pico


Sour cream
Guacamole

It's the shit!

[spinachattack]

Doing this "for" you TD

SAD is town =/= strong town

SAD cannot be my buddy,

meaning he's not red.

And he's absolutely convinced that you're the blue.
So...

Stand alone, this is so fucking bad. In context, he's playing along with the hypothetical you two were pushing and talking in second person.

Pedit: huh, I'm calling you red scum, if redscum flip than I was right X_x. Explain that question better.

If

the redscumteam dies and

I'm not one of them

what happens?

Yup. I know. More experience there than I would like to admit. You were last on my lynch list, I really hope to play with you again. You've expanded my knowledge with this game a lot. That said, this is my lynch list.

And I hope if I get lynched and

if

I flip town, you will drop that BRO suspicion and lynch the fuck out of MS if we can still somehow pull off the win. A mislynch means that blue scum needs to hit redscum, which shouldn't be that hard considering scum will be in {Metal Sonic, Ser Arthur Dayne, TiphaineDeath}.

Soooo much if, not enough when. But still taken OOC in regards to the prevailing conversation.

Now. Can you put that in context with the conversation where he wasn't going along with the hypothetical you two had going with Nacho?

[spinachattack]

Interesting.

QFT

[spinachattack]

Fucking ipad dropped all my formatting. Not starting over again so here's the link again

http://liespotting.com/liespotting-basics/words/

I see all but points 1 and 9. These in particular:

Liars use long introductions but skip over main events. When a liar wants to build credibility, she will pad her story with as much factual content as possible. The Israeli researcher Avinoam Sapir found that deceptive individuals will add more detail around the prologue of a story, but gloss over the main event where the deception comes into play. Careful listeners can pick up on this lopsided storytelling style and use the BASIC method to zero in on the missing details with specific questions.

Liars hedge their statements. We hear them in court testimony, political hearings and TV confessional interviews all the time: qualifying statements that leave an out for the person on the hot seat. “As far as I recall…” “If you really think about it…” “What I remember is…” Hedged statements aren’t an absolute indicator of deception, but an overuse of such qualifying phrases certainly should raise suspicion that a person isn’t being totally up front with what he or she knows.

Liars love euphemisms. It’s human nature not to implicate ourselves in wrongdoing. This holds true even for liars, who will shy away from dwelling on their deception if possible. One way they do this is opting for softer language—instead of saying “I didn’t steal the purse” they may say “I didn’t take the purse.” If you ask someone a direct question about their involvement in an incident and they change your words to something softer, raise your deception antennae.

Liars overemphasize their truthfulness. “To tell you the truth…” “Honestly…” “I swear to you…” Oh, if only it were so! When people use these bolstering statements to emphasize their honesty, there’s a good chance they are hiding something. Learning to baseline someone’s normal behavior is important in situations such as this: You want to listen for normal or harmless use of such phrases. There’s no need to add them if you really are telling the truth, so be on guard.

And you don't know what chainsaw is, so let me help

The general form of this tell is "a player who defends another player by attacking the other player's attacker is very probably scum".
The key to identifying this tell is intent - it is possible to confuse Chainsaw Defense with a player who simply finds the attacker scummy and has no intent of defense. In general, you can be reasonably sure that this tell is involved if a) the player supposedly using Chainsaw Defense has not previously been especially critical of the player he is now attacking, and b) the player supposedly using Chainsaw Defense seems to find the player he is supposedly defending at least reasonably pro-town.
The extreme form of this tell is Mutual Chainsaw Defense, where two players defend each other by attacking each others' attackers. This is a major scumtell, and Tarhalindur would be willing to lynch/vig both players with only this tell as justification.
The Chainsaw Defense is named after the mental image of a player ripping apart another player with a chainsaw for daring to attack his ally. It should not be confused with the Cochrane Defense, which can also be referred to as the Chainsaw Defense (the Wiki refers to the Cochrane Defense this way), which is a gambit made by players investigated as scum. The Chainsaw Defense can also be referred to as the Bodyguard Defense in order to prevent confusion.
UPDATE: After further analysis, Tarhalindur has determined that the Chainsaw Defense is only trustworthy once the player defended has been revealed to be group scum (once the player defended is proved to be Mafia, any player that used Chainsaw Defense on the dead scum should be scrutinized). Otherwise, it is a null tell. Mutual Chainsaw Defense may, however, still be an outright scumtell; more research is required here.

[spinachattack]

Oh wait, I'm totally cool with it because it makes you

look

even scummier.

Of course. I mean, what happens if mislynch today and 2 town are hit in the night?

[spinachattack]

Just caught another thing, SA's obsession with finding people admitting to being red-scum points to him being such.

Because catching scum at this point in the game is so scummy /sarcasm

Are you even listening to yourself?

[spinachattack]

You know I've ISO'd every player multiple times. Each time based off Andy's claim. Yet after briefly calling him out and then dropping it, I haven't once gone back to ISO him. Until now.

I'm a JoaT. Shot varsoon last night. Have other actions, been using them as I deemed fit. Breadcrumbed every action thus far. Brownies if you can find them.

YES MOLLIE IM SORRY I LET YOU DIE
I THOUGHT I COULD GO OUT WITH THE GUYS FOR A DRINK
AND THE MINUTE I DO YOU WIND UP DEAD
THATS ON ME
thats on me honey
;_;

And yeah cabd too...

brb grabbing my breadcrumbs

Are they special brownies?

Why has everyone, myself included, overlooked what's been in our faces the whole time? We've been following a claim simply because he claimed it. He said he crumbed all his actions. I pointed out that he pulled them up too quickly when he had to (which made me think they were strategic crumbs placed for a cover). He said he looked for keywords and I took it hook line and sinker. He hasn't been questioned since.

Hasn't been questioned since, yet he's supposedly a town PR. And the scum are so stupid they've been offing VT. They must be like my kitten that has cerebellar hypoplasia stupid if that's true. No. This is all wrong.

These are his real breadcrumbs. He took out Mollie, and cabd too. He's the scum we've based every move we've made since his claim off of. His claim alone has provided all the WIFOM needed to take his team to the end as a result. It also explains why he's having to "go back for a re-read", though after meta diving him, he's completely on top of the games he's been in.

Clear the air. Get better reads as a result.

UNVOTE: TiphaneDeath

VOTE: Andy

[spinachattack]

...... what does 3926 have to do with the quote in it?

That has nothing to do with catching scum, are you even listening to yourself?

Nobody can be scum and be that stupid when they've been directly called out for being scum. Fuck you TD you

are

town, aren't you?

[spinachattack]

i'm pretty sure if you raised that point without taking your vote and flip flopping it everywhere

it would make you seem more credible

True, but since my ISOs didn't pay off I decided to revert back to paranoia and see if I could get some reactions. Not like anything else was going on. But ask yourself, other than looking wonky, where's the scum motivation behind my flipping votes? If I were scum, wouldn't I have just let the hammer fall on TD when he was close instead of unvoting? Or again twice with Nacho? If I'm scum, I probably only have to live through this day to win. Where would my motivation be to stop a hammer as scum?

[spinachattack]

sorry spinach

either your scum or you're tired and cracking out bullshit

because Andy only claimed Joat prior to varsoon lynch. the nightkills that could possibly happen was on ghostlin who was another town pr

so no the scum would not have known

Then lynch me and give scum the win.

[spinachattack]

And, I'm neither tired nor cracking out bullshit. I'm not dumb. I knew changing my vote again would raise flags. Doesn't change the fact that Andy is scum.

[spinachattack]

And Andy first claimed in 3334

VOTE: VARSOON

1) I shot varsoon last night. He isn't dead. Town_protective roles have no reason to protect him.
2) Nacho isn't dead. TownBastionofLightandGlory Nacho isn't dead. Its D4. I'm not sure how much else I want to claim at the moment but suffice to say I think Nacho has a chance of being scum.

orc flip is shocking and saddening.
MS probably isn't MechonisScum.


tl;dr: Shot varsoon in the face- he's not dead. pewpew

Just after I first posted my position on him in 3332.

Scum knew he was claiming PR

before

the night phase and yet VT was killed.

[spinachattack]

ugh... wayne

[spinachattack]

Yes, I'm actually serious Andy. It's a game and it furthers your wincon and it takes out someone who aparently knows you better than the rest of us. It's not like you actually killed her. Is that the only point you have an objection to?

pedit- I guess not, but I still see you as scum going all the way back to 1622. And from something I read somewhere...players with your experience who make it this far into the game, especially with a claimed town PR, are usually scum.

pedit2 you should remember that I think

[spinachattack]

Oh wait, I'm totally cool with it because it makes you

look

even scummier.

Of course. I mean, what happens if mislynch today and 2 town are hit in the night?

...... what does 3926 have to do with the quote in it?

That has nothing to do with catching scum, are you even listening to yourself?

Aaaaand as soon as I turn on him he takes his first opportunity calls me town, stupid, and town, both things inherently designed to get me to back off. Still-Gambiting. Cute.

You're lucky you're red scum or I would lynch your face off.

GIF-Bro-SAD I want your updated scumlists, if you please.

If you can't see the correlation between the quoted statement in 3926 and my reply to it, then you are stupid town. That wasn't designed to be anything but blunt truth. So, I'll break it down for you so it's easier to understand, and you should take this from the pov of me seeing you scum at the time.

1. You say I'm totally cool with it because it makes you

look

even scummier.

2. I thinking you as scum, replied sarcastically that of course you're ok with it because a ML today along with 2 NK (if there are 3 scum left as I think everyone assumes) makes it a scum victory.

That you couldn't piece that together tells me you are VI.

FWIW, when you lynch someone, their face doesn't come off. Their neck breaks and they twitch and flop, but their face stays intact

[spinachattack]

I cant kill both mollie and cabd the same night.

anywho back to reading, drinking, and listening to the Rains

No? Use your vig on one and convince your team to take out the other. And then you crumbed it as you stated you would with your actions. I know you said you used it on Varsoon, but that would mean I would have to believe you first.

[spinachattack]

Well me clarify.
What I saw that made me say te above is Andy calling TMT scum, and then spinach suddenly flipping shit and calling Andy scum.

Reading the first 40 pages, most everyone had my slot as scum. Hell, I would have lynched my slot as scum.

And to your next post, I did answer it.

[spinachattack]

@ GiF, answered in 3958

[spinachattack]

No, I'm saying fake claim JoaT And, actual SK or SM Andyscum.

[spinachattack]

TD is town Andy. Even being slow on the uptake I think he would have caught exactly what I was saying in 3926 if he were scum.

[spinachattack]

Well, don't want to spoil your read. A lot of stuff starts to change around 105-110 though. Regardless of how I have you aligned, I'm looking forward to each of your updates as you make your way through the game!

[spinachattack]

OMG dude! I even gave her the post number...

If you can't see the correlation between the quoted statement in 3926 and my reply to it, then you are stupid town. That wasn't designed to be anything but blunt truth. So, I'll break it down for you so it's easier to understand, and you should take this from the pov of me seeing you scum at the time.

1. You say I'm totally cool with it because it makes you look even scummier.

2. I thinking you as scum, replied sarcastically that of course you're ok with it because a ML today along with 2 NK (if there are 3 scum left as I think everyone assumes) makes it a scum victory.

That you couldn't piece that together tells me you are VI.

[spinachattack]

I might stop after D1, just so you know.
And I'm stopping now as my intellectual capacity is diminishing. /60

Yeah don't spoiler things.
DO THEY FIND THE BAD GUYS
DOES THE HERO GET THE GIRL?

LOL! I won't give away all the

excruciating walls

excitement that looms ahead!

[spinachattack]

Oh, and the read gets better after D1 and goes much, MUCH quicker. D1 is like reading fucking Tolkien!

[spinachattack]

Wishy washy voting... what exactly I don't expect from spinach

And he can't possibly accuse Andrius for not dying as a Joat as he only claimed last day when varsoon lynch+ghostlin died

And somehow missed this part. Yes, I can, because he claimed BEFORE Sassoon was lynched. Then scum hit lame duck neighborless neighbor that appeared to be otherwise vanilla. Instead of going for the uber experienced claimed town PR. THAT DOES NOT COMPUTE!

[spinachattack]

I've got more; not just that. I have all day Sunday to put it together. Tomorrow and Saturday are probably going to be too busy for me to spend hours on an iPad at work given I sold 2 cars today. Friday and Sturday are always busier than Thursday.

You can look at the distancing on 1612 of Orc from Andy. He levels some accusations and never follows up on them.

[spinachattack]

On Andy. So it's much slower today than I speculated, so I decided I could at least be productive here if not at work.

175 purposely remove the direction in the quotes for BRO. What purpose is there in doing this kind of extra work other than for hiding stuff? Sure, he had some for Sven as well, but he left the redirect in the source quotes from Sven before breaking it down point by point. Don't like.

1114 same thing with Nacho. While he did the same with Varsoon, he referenced Varsoon's 210 while he broke it down sentence by sentence. Nothing of the sort on Nacho's posts though. Hmm.... He also speculated in his spoiler there being two scum factions. Not that analyzing flavor should be seen as a strong tell, it's interesting all the same. Also more associative on BRO and Nacho directly following his vote on Varsoon.

Still in 1114 [quote]Ok. Sheeping Nacho when it comes to reads on me is always a great idea.

If I'm scum he will know

, if I'm town he will know... almost always. [/b]

1133 from BnB speaking to Andy seems to be saying "and keep your enemies closer". I think they picked up on Andyscum and its was the reason for their demise N2.

1376 quoting RachMarie (again removes the redirect) where she puts him "definitely in her town bucket". I see this as a slip because it's totally self serving; does nothing at all for town.

Andy boldly claiming scum early
1114 I've done it before its quite easy
1138 Um you just claim scum.
Then they lynch you. gg
1376 False, you read enough into mine to hear about the "claiming scum" deal.

1381 associative to Orc. Triumvirate-is a political regime dominated by three powerful individuals. This after he speculated early about two mafia factions with no real reasoning other than speculation. Guess that wipes the Nacho and BRO associatives. Unless you interpret this as Andy calling Orc other scum. I don't read this as referring to the townbloc, though he did use the same term to refer to them.

1825 "But the guy I'm attached to I'll never be able to lynch. :/", so now he's JoaT ~and~ mason/neighbor. Also, why could he lynch him? Would that be because by that point it was probable for 2 lynch, leaving two on team red? It's starting to look to me like 2's miserable D1 play was just gambit to put their partners as far away from them as possible.

1662 from Nacho to BnB is interesting

More from 1825 "The best part of this is that Nacho is

guaranteed

to read me correctly, so when he says I'm town I'm town and I trust everything he says."

2212 though he has speculated multiball twice already, now that someone else has the same thought its no big deal and he chooses to gloss over it. Interesting.

2232 indicates BnB were onto Andy pretty strongly. I guess I should ISO them next to see if they picked up anything I've missed.

2263 says he's unemployed and out of school, yet recently he's been on a business trip which has consumed his time and that's why he hasn't been contributing. Interesting, but I could just be taking the purpose of his trip wrongly.
His response to 2 in the same post is just as interesting.
In fact, 2263 is one i think everyone should go back and read in detail.

2269 "You can infer a lot from only your role.". Yes, when you're scum for example, you know all the players who are against you, and when you see there's only three members on your team in a 20 person you can also assume multiball very early on...

I decided to just stop off here. I'm sure theirs more, but I've already used up 61% of my battery life on this and business is finally picking up. In all, I don't like all the reformatting of posts (look at his ISO and you will see what i mean other than the couple ive pointed out). I don't see where a town player would need to be deceptive like that. I also don't like how he came off

knowing

it was multiball so early on. He also explains that he crumbs everything as part of his meta, and the crumbs I'm seeing all look scummy. I have more people to dive to follow up to solidify some of the things I've pointed out. But as I said, the diving board is temporarily out of service.

[spinachattack]

Also, at this point in my read Andy can only be scum. If he's red, then Nacho is probably Red too. If he's Blue, Nacho is probably town. A mislynch is out of the question. Lynching Andyscum either implicates Nacho, or clears BRO and Nacho which either way will make the next game day easier.

[spinachattack]

GIF-Bro-SAD I want your updated scumlists, if you please.

I don't think SA's case on Andy is strong and he should get off it and get back on a good wagon.[/quote]
Nah, I'm firmly where I should be. And I will finish unless there's a quicklynch. Or do you want to claim an investigative role? Sorry you can't see what I see, but Andy isn't town.

[quote="In [url=http://www.mafiascum.net/forum/viewtopi ... 3#p5048413]

(which made me think they were strategic crumbs placed for a cover).

He's known for strategic crumbing, so the claim itself doesn't surprise me at all. We're also expecting a protective role in this game (considering the strongman), and he's a protector, sooo. He'll become townier if we manage to flip something like a ninja, but as for now, it's a claim that makes perfect sense within the setup.

It's a game and it furthers your wincon and it takes out someone who aparently knows you better than the rest of us.

She doesn't know him better than the rest of you. I know him better than the rest of you. This was mollie's first game with him.

He can't be THE protector and JoaT at the same time. Diving his meta last night showed me he crumbs scum too, and how he does it. It's really pretty damned effective to be so open. It plays just like BBB (or at least my understanding of how BBB worked) and I would have never thought it would work that well.

Thanks for that. It seemed they'd played a few games together. Are you ready to firmly clear yourself, btw?

[spinachattack]

...formatting

[spinachattack]

It's really pretty damned effective to be so open. It plays just like BBB (or at least my understanding of how BBB worked) and I would have never thought it would work that well.

Right, he crumbs like crazy regardless of alignment. Do you think this was a gambit he thought of from the get go?[/quote]

Yeah. And don't worry, I'll finish up. It'll be Sunday though. It takes way too much time to do from an ipad.

[spinachattack]

Ooohhhhh! Ok, Nacho I'm picking up what you're throwing down now. Ain't I dumb.

Are you available for a quick chat?

[spinachattack]

No GiF. Nacho.

[spinachattack]

Nah! Much love! I just need to talk to Nacho.

[spinachattack]

He asked me to build a better case for him and I realized I don't have to go do another huge ISO to do that.

[spinachattack]

Looks like it isn't going to happen tonight. Hopefully tomorrow?

[spinachattack]

You don't have 5 minutes now?

[spinachattack]

Bah. Yeah, I'll be around. I just had a couple of questions regarding Andy to make sure about some things.

[spinachattack]

You can make it again buddy!

Site crash... Ah well, it doesn't look like we lost much.

On Andy. There seems to be many inconsistencies with several of his posts.

Just throwing it out there.

In that case:

I'm a JoaT.
Shot varsoon N3.
Protected Nacho N2.
Watched Nacho N1.

Thought he was town, probable kill target. Was quite surprised to see that NO ONE targeted him N1, and (obviously) no one killed him N2.

...

In other news Nacho not being dead AND not even being shot at yet makes me wonder. Like, after D1, I'd be hard pressed to pick ANYONE but him to be shot.
Anywho.

brb grabbing my breadcrumbs

Ok, so he claims JoaT, goes on to explain how he investigated Nacho N1, protected Nacho N2, and then even though he's explained why its suspicious Nacho hadn't been targeted by then and that he would be "hard pressed to pick ANYONE but him to be shot" instead to shot at Varsoon on N3. That just doesn't sit right with me.

YES MOLLIE IM SORRY I LET YOU DIE
I THOUGHT I COULD GO OUT WITH THE GUYS FOR A DRINK
AND THE MINUTE I DO YOU WIND UP DEAD
THATS ON ME
thats on me honey
;_;

And yeah cabd too.

Man its like I'm Brynden Tully.

Spoiler: GAME OF THRONES 3.9 spoilers

I STEP OUT FOR ONE MINUTE TO TAKE A PISS
AND MY FAMILY AND KING AND PEOPLE ALL DIE

Then there's this. He's gloating over the night kill of Mollie and cabd (because he didn't even mention Venmar who was also killed that night; what, is he not worthy of a mention?). When I first called him out on that he responds basically- 'cant kill two in one night-derp!', but he can protect two?!? Yeah, not buying that one either.

Just throwing it out there.

In that case:

I'm a JoaT.

I have a hidden passive where I can't die until the one who killed mollie dies.
Its called SHEER WILLPOWER.

TD is town. Same read as before. That hydra leans scum because of TWT's earlier posting.

...though honestly, I wouldn't be surprised either way.

How many roles does one player get?!? JoaT ~and~ indestructible. Picking my feet off the floor now. The shit's getting pretty damned high in here... I guess the SHEER WILLPOWER thing can be fundamentally true though Seeing how I think he's the one who offed Mollie, lynching him

would

take out the one who ended her...


And since I don't know who I'm currently voting for, technically...

UNVOTE:

VOTE: ANDRIUS

[spinachattack]

In the meantime, since I remember asking this half a dozen times, which games of mine did you read for my meta?
Because I can guess but if I can tailor responses to specific games that'd make it easier for all of us.

Is that in response to Andy crumbs town only as town vs probable town night actions and actual scum actions as scum? I think that was deleted in the crash so thanks for reminding me if that's what you're getting at.

[spinachattack]

I missed andy's wall entirely. what was it about?

I did too, but as much as I would have liked to have seen it I won't be cruel and have him type it all out again for naught...

Andy, I was just about to jump into your first scum game on your wiki to find what I figured was there when a thought occurred to me... If I do this, it's just going to lead to a whole point/counterpoint argue ment which would distract from the town agenda of lynching scum. Why go through all of that when it would be far simpler to just push you into admitting that's how you play...?

In the meantime, since I remember asking this half a dozen times,

which games of mine did you read

for my meta?

Because I can guess

but if I can tailor responses to specific games that'd make it easier for all of us.

Thanks for that!

TL/DR I didn't read any of your games. I just gambited that was your normal play style and waited for you to bite.

[spinachattack]

Andi cool to play a game with you could you post some town and scum game links for me? Since I have never played with you? ATM though sheeping Nacho on you till I get a more solid feel since he seems to know you better gamewise.

Um.
Ok. Sheeping Nacho when it comes to reads on me is always a great idea.

If I'm scum he will know

, if I'm town he will know... almost always.

Ok, there's actually a lot of crumbing Andy/Nacho scum team in this post, so everyone should probably go look at the entire wall. This is just the most blatant example.

he is blatantly cosying up to you, parroting what has mostly already been said, said he thinks I might be competent, I mean who does that then sheeps my read. my first gut reaction was "scary scum will be impossible to get lynched" but I know we will need more than that.

mollie
when people call you scummy for buddying up to you, it's stupid because we're friends and we trust each other
andy and I have the same dynamic
he trusts you because of my interaction with you
if you lynch him and he flips town, i'm going to meltdown

Pretty much this.

The best part of this is that Nacho is guaranteed to read me correctly

, so when he says I'm town I'm town and I trust everything he says.
Sadly, I can't read him nearly as good as he can me.

"Guaranteed" is such a strong word, especially in a game like this. Regardless of how many times you've played with someone.

Yeah, Nacho is scum #2 for the team. He said as much himself (probably drunk slip, but slip none the less) in a couple of places in the whole 1v1v1 of Nacho/TD/MS.

[spinachattack]

lol rollback

poor andrius

I am bored, like lynch Nacho/TD/SAD already

we need a flip to keep things going

This speaks for itself. Any ole lynch won't do to keep the game going, for town at least. We have to get scum today or we lose control of the lynch to the scum by tomorrow. Hurry and vote for flip = scum #3.