Lord of The Rings Mafia - Game End

[zMuffinMan]

zMuffinMan should also start posting

You're not my mother, you can't tell me what to do.

[zMuffinMan]

No. But feel free to ask me any questions. I'll ignore them because I haven't read the thread yet, but you're free to ask anyway.

In the mean time, why don't you tell me who you think is scum and why?

From looking at your posts on this page, presumably you think my predecessor was scum bussing subliminal, because you certainly have no problem being on the same wagon as me. Why don't you start on elaborating on this.

[zMuffinMan]

So anyway, 10 pages in and I have Amrun, Toasty, Venrob and to a lesser extent alienBRO and Gollum as town. And Deathnote, rob2424 and to a lesser extent Subliminal as scum.

More soon.

[zMuffinMan]

@Muffin You list Amrun as a town read, and Sub as a scum read, though Amrun has Sub as a major town read? Can you elaborate on that further?

I'm mostly null on Subliminal's posting where I'm at so far (p18), lots of setup talk, a few reads here and there, nothing special. One of the few notes I took on the game was that #167 pointed towards Subliminal maybe being wraith-scum (it's possible monkey listed 3 non-wraith here, but the mention of subliminal here and complete lack of followup felt really out of place), but it's not a strong read. Why does Amrun's read on Subliminal matter? I think she's town, that doesn't make her right.

Any ideas who you think might be the SK?

... Huh?

[zMuffinMan]

I'm going to assume the SK thing has something to do with the whole Venrob was poisoned stuff.

[zMuffinMan]

OK. Unless I'm misunderstanding the setup, hunting for the third party seems rather pointless. Destroy ring = problem solved.

[zMuffinMan]

I'm at the end of D1 now. I pretty much skimmed through the last half of the day because of all the controversy with my predecessor.

My reads are mostly the same as before, except I now think Subliminal is more likely town, Gollum more null-scum and I'm leaning scum on Who. Also there were a couple posts from monkey that I wanted to go back and look at more closely (the reads post, and a later post in which he gave his scum list, forget the post numbers) but I'll go back over that when I finish catching up.

@Venrob,

What are your scum reads outside of Subliminal?

There was some interaction with monkey (somewhere between p30 and p40, i stopped taking notes at about p20 so I don't remember specifically where it took place) that looked unlikely to come from Subliminal if he were monkey's buddy. Specifically the sequence of posts where he was questioning monkey about fluff and the case he subsequently made as a result of this (which was also the first time anyone in the game had really questioned monkey and put him in the spotlight). Didn't really look like bussing. What are your thoughts on it?



Anyway, more later when I finish reading.

[zMuffinMan]

*shrug* Your play at the end of D1 was the main reason I changed my mind about you.

Although I don't think you're scum with DN.

[zMuffinMan]

So you agree with Amrun that you think we were bussin' Monkey?

I don't think it's as likely as DN being scum who bussed monkey. And I don't think you're scum with DN.

There was a point near the end of D1 that felt really weird. It went like... You wanted monkey dead badly (apparently), then DN hops on the monkey wagon, and all of a sudden instead of thinking that it's possible DN was bussing, you unvoted because nah, monkey couldn't be scum if DN was voting him. I thought this was pretty weird. My thinking here is Gollum-town would first assume that DN was bussing.

Also, the rest of your play at the end of D1 (re: your interaction with Amrun and Toasty) played a contributing factor in the reason my read on you wavered.

I'll flesh this out a bit more when I finish catching up.

[zMuffinMan]

I was the first vote on Monkey so I never "hopped" on him. Subliminal made a fluffy monkey case, I voted, and my vote stayed.

Yeah, for some reason I got you mixed up with someone else somehow. That changes things slightly. I need to go back and double-check what happened at the end of D1. Like I said, I was skimming by the end of it because of the repetitive bullshit with my predecessor.


---

Though we're pretty alarmed that he thinks our interactions with Toast is some how scummy. Toast was attacking/discrediting the Monkey case. How on earth would he think the guys that brought forth the monkey case was scummier than the guy that attempted to discredit and derail the Monkey case/wagon.

I actually don't find Toast all that scummy for doing this. The opposite in fact. It's been a very long time since I played a game with Toast, but I'm more inclined to believe Toast-scum would be less likely to do this than Toast-town. Toast-scum loses potential town cred from bussing the fuck out of deadweight monkey, at the risk of potentially looking bad if monkey gets lynched. Why is this more likely than Toast-town being wrong?

On the other hand, I'm not entirely following why you think scum wouldn't try to distance from their partner. If DN was first on the monkey wagon, why did you rule out the possibility of distancing? Why couldn't it have been something like DN not seriously thinking monkey would get lynched at the time he put down his vote?

But this brings up an interesting question... Why are you pushing for DN's lynch today, when he was someone who apparently "brought forth" the monkey lynch?

[zMuffinMan]

nvm that last question, it appears you think he's third party. Catching up on D2 now, will be interested in reading the explanation for this.

[zMuffinMan]

??? DN did no such thing. We are pretty sure he was sheeping Sub and he never "brought forth" anything.

I read the following as you crediting both DN and yourself:

the guys that brought forth

I guess that's not what you were saying.

[zMuffinMan]

@gollum,

What do you think of #1572 (specifically the second line) and what are your thoughts on Who?

[zMuffinMan]

Just because of that post?

And what are your thoughts on #1572? Because I'm struggling to think of a way this makes any sense from the perspective of DN-scum.

[zMuffinMan]

No, you're missing the point. This is the key part of the post:

Same reason why Monkey's claim was crap because it didn't make sense to have two people be vanilla townie and one with a name claim.

rob claimed rider of rohan (unnamed), monkey claimed pippen, dn hinted that he had issues with monkey's claim d1, and now d2 says that.

Now from the perspective of dn-scum, explain how this makes any sense.

I'm not saying his logic is necessarily valid, but that him saying this only makes sense from the perspective of him being town.

[zMuffinMan]

Anyway, I'm pretty much caught up on the thread.

unvote

vote: Who

This is a good wagon.

Give me about an hour and I'll expand on some of my thoughts on the game so far. Also need to go back and re-read the end of D1.

So he knew that one of the two were likely lying.

OK, but why would DN-scum think that a VT couldn't have a name claim? Why would he specifically mention that he had an issue with the

claim

from monkey if he didn't actually think that VTs had no name claim?

[zMuffinMan]

Hello. I fell asleep watching TI3. Briefly skimmed the last few pages.

My first thought is I don't believe the "lolreaction gambit" stuff because... It's entirely possible he could have been hammered then and there, thus making any attempt at a "lolreaction gambit" essentially useless. But the claim doesn't make much more sense from a scum perspective either, unless he's just given up and trolling now. This seems more likely than town gambit.

Anyway, more after I get something to eat.

Also have something to say about DN.

[zMuffinMan]

First and foremost, since this is a matter of utmost importance, the word is wary, not weary, or leery.

Anyway, the three possibilities I'm thinking here are:

- He's wraith-scum who is fishing for information on who the actual third party is as a last-ditch effort to help his team, or
- He's actually the SK and he's given up and is now trolling, or
- He's town and this "lolreaction gambit" was very poorly thought through.

The last option seems, by far, the least likely of the three, and I think he needs to die today. Which of the first two he is doesn't really matter to me.


In regards to DN,

Yeah, no. I refuse to let scumread DeathNote or NSin (i don't even know who he replaced) because they claimed "Riders." How does that in anyway clear them as town?

I'm going to explain my thoughts on DN's claim then my thoughts on DN's play.

In regards to DN's claim, these are my thoughts about 1572 (which I've already covered but I'll put all of my thoughts in one post anyway).

So in this post, we have DN claiming Rider of Rohan, and by no means is anyone actually clearing him for the claim alone. The reason this makes him very, very likely town is the way in which he did it.

The first VT claim was robert2424, claiming Rider of Rohan, VT. The second VT claim was monkey claiming Pippen, VT. After this, in 1297 and 1298, DN expresses his reasons for not believing monkey's claim, i.e. that it didn't make sense for there to be a VT with a name claim. Now consider this from the perspective of DN as scum. How would he even know this? If he's scum, then he shouldn't know whether or not VTs have no name-claims, or even whether or not robert2424's claim makes more sense than monkey's. The only way this really makes sense to me is if he's a VT who genuinely thought that robert's claim was likely true after monkey's claim, because of the information he personally has. Now, this doesn't necessarily verify that robert is town, but it sure as fuck makes it likely that DN is town. If you don't understand this, just walk through the possibilities in your head here. Not only that, but he's been consistently calling robert's slot his strongest town read since because of this. All this points to very likely town. I'm not saying he's right about robert, but DN's reasons for thinking this are internally consistent in his posting and make me think it's coming from a town mindset. Again, if you don't understand this, walk through all the possibilities of DN being scum in your head and tell me how this makes any sense.

All that aside, in regards to his play itself, on my initial read through I had DN as scum at the beginning of the game, with 109 and 189 as scumposts in my notes. My thoughts on 109 were that it felt like scum trying way too fucking hard to make it look like he was attempting to scumhunt when the actual content of the post was utter crap - he makes a big deal out of nothing several times, it felt really fake. And I had 189 listed as a scum post because the reasons for thinking venrob was lying felt like scum trying to convince town that venrob was still a viable lynch, and i had issues with the unvote but I kind of understand the unvote because of V/LA explanation so meh about that now. Looking over it again, I can kinda see how maybe this could have come from a town mindset - maybe he was just trying to talk about whatever he could at the start of the game and maybe he legitimately had issues with venrob's claim but wanted to unvote because V/LA... Meh, either way, I can see why I may have initially been wrong about it.

The rest of his D1 posts I was meh about. Posts here and there with some content, but nothing really town-looking. Looking back at his vote on monkey (basically just sheeping subliminal, no original thought), my first thought was that it was just a poor attempt at distancing, and I actually thought he jumped on the monkey wagon a lot later than he did so I was kind of just chalking it up to him seeing a sinking ship and hopping on it for towncred - which I'm apparently wrong about, so whatever. But meh, this all comes from me already thinking he was scum, and when I look at it without the confirmation bias, it's null at best.

In regards to the D2 stuff that's happened, though, I think there's some accusations being thrown at DN. First, subliminal's reason for thinking DN is scum is just plain shit. It's horrible and there's no excuse for such bad reasoning and you should feel ashamed of yourself skrew.

Apart from that, I dunno, the stuff with the claim is really making me think that people are reading too much into his playstyle itself and not enough into whether his play makes him more likely to be scum.



In any case, I'm willing to put DN aside for today, and you can argue for his lynch all you want tomorrow and you can talk about it in more depth then. Or, if you really insist on a DN lynch today, restate your reasons for thinking he's scum as concisely as possible in your next post and convince me I'm wrong about the claim stuff.

Who is still a better lynch today, IMO.

[zMuffinMan]

Well, I don't know if anyone is actually considering a lynch outside of Who, but there are people who are asking him about his intentions as though anything he says at this point could be useful information. *shrug*

[zMuffinMan]

Um.

@NSin,

You weren't poisoned?


Going to read some ISOs after sleep.

[zMuffinMan]

Hello.

Haven't had time today. Someone give me a case or reasons for their vote and I'll look at them.

I'll make ISOing in this game priority tomorrow.

[zMuffinMan]

That claim is fishy.

It can be transferred by giving it away during the day or through hammering and killing the current owner.

How/why did goodmorning end up with the ring after Who's lynch?

[zMuffinMan]

If he was lying, that makes it even more unbelievable.

[zMuffinMan]

I received the ring after Who's lynch.

[zMuffinMan]

No thezmon. Read this page. goodmorning supposedly got the ring after the Who lynch and apparently has a guilty on subliminal.

[zMuffinMan]

I am considering the possibility this is a dumb gambit.

I want to make sense of this before subliminal is lynched.

[zMuffinMan]

you're awful for not realising awful has a 'f'

[zMuffinMan]

i

[zMuffinMan]

o f

[zMuffinMan]

t h n

[zMuffinMan]

---------- -- ----, ---- -- ---- ---- ?

[zMuffinMan]

-u--i-i-a- i- --u-, ---- i- -i-- -i-e ?

[zMuffinMan]

subliminal is scum, l-n-- i- -i-- -i-e ?

[zMuffinMan]

"subliminal is scum" took all the letters in this for your guesses

[zMuffinMan]

subliminal is scum, lynch it -ith -i-e ?

[zMuffinMan]

subliminal is scum, lynch it with fire ?

[zMuffinMan]

whichever head it was goes next i guess

[zMuffinMan]

kill everything

[zMuffinMan]

[-]----: ----------[/-]

[zMuffinMan]

damn.

f?

[zMuffinMan]

[-]----: ----------[/-]

[zMuffinMan]

hint: you probably don't want to win this one

[zMuffinMan]

i don't have a new one. pass

are you gonna claim btw or given up?

[zMuffinMan]

i a

[zMuffinMan]

s e

[zMuffinMan]

n t

[zMuffinMan]

h o

[zMuffinMan]

c

[zMuffinMan]

------

[zMuffinMan]

----o-

WRONG: A E I U (L-2)

[zMuffinMan]

m---o-

WRONG: A E I U N

[zMuffinMan]

No, I'm sorry, the correct answer was mqthos. You lose.



This was funnier in my head.

[zMuffinMan]

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 1#p3368151

[zMuffinMan]

i c a n t

[zMuffinMan]

d o

[zMuffinMan]

e

[zMuffinMan]

u

[zMuffinMan]

u

[zMuffinMan]

wtf where did the o go from you then

[zMuffinMan]

oh now he adds the o's

[zMuffinMan]

i've gotta go get food now, if you're still playing when i get back (doubtful but i can hope) i'll play

[zMuffinMan]

[zMuffinMan]

you go first

[zMuffinMan]

if you want

did andy disappear?

[zMuffinMan]

damn too slow

[zMuffinMan]

i a

[zMuffinMan]

e o

[zMuffinMan]

s t r

i am actually surprised nobody still alive has come on and interrupted this yet.

[zMuffinMan]

c h y u p k

[zMuffinMan]

damn

---------- --- --- ---- ----- --- -------

if skrew is continuing

[zMuffinMan]

OK I'll play with myself then.

Not hangman.

[zMuffinMan]

oh, right.

Vote: Subliminal

[zMuffinMan]

It's hard to play hangman and remember to vote.

Unrelated, but do you like marasy?

[zMuffinMan]

You are aware that he was asked to claim several times, even once during hangman, and chose to ignore it.

[zMuffinMan]

That was the hammer, I put him at L-1 on the last page and Amrun just hammered.

[zMuffinMan]

Who did you pass the ring to yesterday, goodmorning?

[zMuffinMan]

I assumed when she said she will not possess the ring tonight, that meant she passed it to someone.

[zMuffinMan]

To be fair, I don't think anyone would have figured out subliminal was scum if not for hangman. I like to think it was I who played the most crucial role in getting subliminal lynched.

[zMuffinMan]

That sounds like a rather fucking stupid theory, seeing as if there really were any third parties still after the ring,

destroying the ring would make them lose

.

[zMuffinMan]

But what was the point if you could just destroy the ring and make them lose?

OK.

I'm pretty sure scum is in {TwinFlames, SafetyDance, goodmorning} with an outside chance of Toasty.

Reason I'm including goodmorning in this list is because I still think there was something fishy going on with him receiving the ring N2. And I'm currently suspicious that she destroyed the ring because now she can just ride on the "i investigated sub" thing for the rest of the game.

Rest is mostly PoE from town reads and the fact that I didn't like thezmon's posts yesterday. TwinFlames is a good start.

vote: TwinFlames

Need to do some ISO reading.

[zMuffinMan]

Can I get a timeline of events and what's happened?

shit happened, scum lynched, more shit happened, scum lynched, ring investigation gave scum result, scum lynched, ring destroyed.

now we need to find wraithscum.

you should read from about page 82 onwards because that's where the most important stuff of the game happens.

[zMuffinMan]

It was 9 pages of hangman. and all of it was important

Also, your reason still doesn't make sense.

[zMuffinMan]

wait I missed something here? gm destroyed the ring? Why? Could have been used to find the other scum, since the 3rd party person is dead no worry of him winning.

His reason was that *apparently* we should be able to find the other scum on our own. Which is, of course, bullshit, but that is precisely why he's still in my potential scum list.

unvote

Vote: SafetyDance

I don't see how a mass-claim is necessary atm.

[zMuffinMan]

... Is that what you really think I'm saying?

What you basically did is the same as a cop saying, "Oh, fuck using my investigations anymore, there's only one scum left!" <- No cop has ever done this, ever, except maybe to troll, and I doubt you'd even be able to find a game like that if you spent the whole day looking.

The only somewhat legitimate explanation you have for destroying the ring is that it *might* help wraithscum, but that's based on flavour, and common sense would indicate this is just wrong (see win conditions on p1).

[zMuffinMan]

Because my suspicion of goodmorning is more of a "he could be scum and he's not a town read" thing.

[zMuffinMan]

This is so pants on head.

If that means "correct" then I agree.

I would also like to see both Toast and goodmorning give an answer to #2305 because it's actually a legitimate question.

[zMuffinMan]

Muffin's 2273 didn't seem like sarcasm to us.

You have a very low opinion of me.

So your vote on me is because...?

Because I think you're scum.

[zMuffinMan]

PoE from town reads + I thought thezmon looked like scum.

[zMuffinMan]

And NSin/DN have role/flavour claimed, and my predecessor flavour claimed.

[zMuffinMan]

So that's it? I can't really defend any of that, which is convenient.

Well, yeah, seeing as you replaced in this day phase, I can't exactly make much of a case on your posts alone. I will say you've been doing a lot of talking about the setup and stuff and not much work into actually finding scum, so that's not exactly a positive for you, either.

Why change your vote from TF?

Mostly because TF's post before I changed my vote looked townish.

[zMuffinMan]

@gollum,

Do you actually think Toast is scum? If so, why aren't you voting him?

And what are your thoughts on goodmorning and safetydance's slot?


@DN,

Who do you think is scum?

[zMuffinMan]

I don't see mafia motivation in what he did yesterday

Well the simple answer is he received the ring some time D2, unaware of how he got it (perhaps it was from a town player still alive) he pretended to have investigated subliminal, thinking he could destroy the ring after this and coast to endgame with the whole, "i investigated subliminal i can't be scum!" thing...

I am assuming he didn't think this through properly (he obviously didn't, regardless of alignment) and didn't expect to be criticised for this.

the last mafioso is in {Gollum, Toasty, TF}

Why Gollum? He looks pretty town, given the interactions with the rest of the flipped wraith-scum. Not to mention he's one of the only players who seems to give a shit about scum hunting at this point.

The question is would Moz really try and save his buddy the way he did?

This part seemed rather odd to me too, but I can't rationalise him doing it as town, either. I'm looking at it from the perspective that he didn't fully understand the ring mechanic and that goodmorning was claiming a cop guilty. From this perspective, he makes sense as scum.

I agree with most of your thoughts on the other players you mentioned though (minus BRO, who I have a town read on from when I read through the game - at least he's town enough that I'm not really considering him today).

[zMuffinMan]

Except that's the same questions I've been trying to find answers to and have been met with negative reactions from everyone else.

I don't see any negative reactions from this.

Most of the negative feelings towards your slot come from the fact that your predecessors looked scummy (or less town than others), and you haven't exactly done much to change this.

Not a Massclaim but a flavor claim. There is a subtle difference.

No, not really. They are basically the same thing in this game, minus the fact that you can't guess the exact PRs from flavour.

What do you guys have against me having all the information about the setup and what has happened that you guys currently have now?

Nothing. But that's all you seem to be doing and I'd prefer seeing your thoughts on different players than have you speculate about the ring / ask about claims 20 posts in a row.

I think there's something up with goodmorning and the ring stuff, but I don't feel strongly enough about it that he's my preferred lynch today. He may just be town who did something really dumb.

[zMuffinMan]

Also, seeing as you replaced in this day phase and haven't exactly done much in the way of looking town, it kind of makes sense that you're being judged based on your predecessors.

[zMuffinMan]

So if you think GM is scum for her actions then why are you not wanting to lynch her? That seems counter-intuitive.

It was a hypothetical. BRO said he couldn't see the wraith-scum motivation, I explained the possibility I was considering where gm was actually wraith-scum.

It doesn't reflect my current thoughts on gm.

The act of destroying the ring is very town. You realise that we can't win without it being destroyed?

It's more to do with the fact that he did it after third party died. I'm going to assume third party needs to be alive to win.

No he hasn't, he's just been reacting negatively to everyone and insulting them. You call that scumhunting?

Well, that's not actually what he was doing. I understood that he had his own reasons for wanting a massclaim and didn't want to disclose those reasons, and gm prying about this was just dumb.

Other than that, gollum has been one of the only people actually trying to figure out who's scum. He's been asking good questions, and his thoughts are also mostly in line with my own (although I don't think I'm as suspicious of Toast as he currently is, and I'm not particularly suspicious of BRO at all atm)

[zMuffinMan]

I can't really do a lot when I'm being accused.

It's the other way around. You're being accused for not doing a lot.

Well if I am asking 20 posts in a row (that was a terrible exaggeration on your part btw)

Not really, you have 20 posts, it's happened 20 posts in a row.

Although it's pretty hard to distinguish anything here when people aren't helpful, aren't clear, vote for completely asinine reason and don't do anything to distinguish themselves as town

*shrug* I don't see how you hope to form reads without having at least looked through the ISOs of living players, if you're unwilling to read the game. You can argue that we aren't helping you today, but you're not exactly helping yourself if you're not even going to read the game that we're talking about.

I don't get you. You want me to be ignorant of the setup, in the dark as to what has happened and a supplicant to anything you say.

Honestly, it doesn't bother me if you ask about the setup for the next 100 posts, as long as the next 100 posts also include your thoughts on different players, who you think is scum and why, etc.

The problem is you're doing the former and not the latter.

[zMuffinMan]

So you she is definitely town?

No.

No, she did it after finding mafia-scum. If she did it after Who died then she could not have gotten the result on MS.

... Yes.

Insulting GM, calling Bro stupid, hating me. That's not scumhunting.

... OK.

Also, have you noticed Toastie has been calling me scum for suggesting a flavor claim but he hasn't batted an eyelid over Gollum's MC suggestion?

He said he disliked your idea for a mass claim (I don't believe he called you scum for that), and he was the first person to oppose gollum's idea for a massclaim iirc.

[zMuffinMan]

D3 wasn't exactly an eventful day. You could have skipped it entirely and been none the worse. Tell me when you finish doing whichever ISOs you're doing.

it must be that Who was lying when he was going on about either having the ring or that whoever hammers him will get the ring. In which case why would he lie in twilight and why would give it away without saying when rooting for a town win? It doesn't add up.

Speculating on why scum would do X when they've given up and accepted their lynch seems pointless.

If I were scum having been lynched, I'd probably troll for the entirety of twilight. But that's just the kind of player I am.

*shrug*

[zMuffinMan]

@safety,

I don't understand most of the questions you're asking me.

what do you think Who would do? What type of player do you think he is?

I don't know, thus it seems kind of pointless to speculate. Geddit?

Have you done much in the way of ISO work? Or have any notes thus far on any you've done?

[zMuffinMan]

i'll probably be voting goodmorning today.

there's some reading i want to do first, though.

[zMuffinMan]

Maybe if scum killed the new ringbearer, that's bad, but we went into night with 12 people. Subtract yourself, and that's eleven possible bearers. An 18% chance scum gets the ring versus an investigation. And the 18% includes you making a random handoff, so ignoring your scum reads.

Add onto this that he could have just claimed to give the ring away and instead kept it himself and used it for investigations, but instead chose to destroy it... And this is pretty much the reason I'm still suspicious of goodmorning.

[zMuffinMan]

been lazy. reading today

[zMuffinMan]

Who claims to have had it, nobody counterclaims.

the one scenario i'm considering in which gm might possibly be town is that who was lying, since he claimed after he was lynched and that could have just been him being a dick and pretending he had the ring. in this case, it would make sense there was no counter-claim. this would also explain why nsin didn't get the ring after hammering.

but even this doesn't make much sense, because it then leads to the even bigger question, who the fuck would give the ring to goodmorning n2?

no town player claimed giving the ring to goodmorning, so i'm assuming he either always had it and lied about receiving it n2, or scum gave it to him for god knows what reason. the former seems far more likely than the latter.


anyway, procrastinating my read through some more.

[zMuffinMan]

we have to remember that scum could choose not to NK the person for reasons of WIFOM (although I doubt they would do this unless they thought GM destroyed the ring, because leaving an investigation in play is probably not worth it).

that depends. how likely do you think it is that all three wraith-scum are goons with no power to counter the ring?

the plan royally fucking screws us if, for example, the last wraith-scum is a godfather

[zMuffinMan]

i doubt wraith-scum benefits from having the ring (even if it makes sense flavour-wise, in the context of this game it's doubtful). i am almost certain that subliminal genuinely wanted the ring destroyed.

[zMuffinMan]

dead game is dead.

i'm probably voting goodmorning today.

[zMuffinMan]

and no, i don't care about the randomness thing the mod just said was "possible"

[zMuffinMan]

has gm's slot claimed?

claim gm

[zMuffinMan]

yeah...

Vote: goodmorning

[]===

[zMuffinMan]

hahahaha

[zMuffinMan]

hahahahahahahaha

goodmorning is ring-scum

twinflames is wraith-scum

discuss

[zMuffinMan]

ok. i'm thinking goodmorning is the correct play for today.

here's what happened. i got the ring after goodmorning's lynch. i investigated twin flames. got a guilty. and now i don't have the ring.

twinflames is wraith-scum but we can't lynch him today because i'm fairly sure goodmorning is ring-scum and got the ring back after my investigation.

either that, or twinflames currently has the ring.

i doubt either of them is going to claim they have it so we should be lynching goodmorning->twinflames in that order for a win.

thoughts?

[zMuffinMan]

And how is it that you can't see any reason for zMuffin to lie about his investigation?

this is true and one of the reasons goodmorning basically claimed scum. his first reactions to what's happening should have either been:

(1) surprise at still being alive (i'm guessing he has some sort of self-governing ability and if it's more than 1-shot, then fuck that's OP), or
(2) questioning how i lost the ring last night (because if he were actually town and continually investigating without losing the ring, he should be wondering how i lost it after using it).

If the ring did transfer back to GM, I'm not giving up the option of hammering to conduct our own investigation tonight, thank you very much. (BRO, we'll discuss in-hydra, but this is my gut take.)

this was a plan i was considering today, but then i realised twin flames is going to kill whoever hammers today anyway (he literally needs to make this a 1v1 with me at this point if he wants any chance of winning). so ultimately this plan fails anyway. i can't think of a good way to resolve this other than to just have people look at my actions, compare it to twin flames play this game, and realise who is telling the truth here. i think goodmorning's lack of surprise at me losing the ring after my investigation should at least be a point in my favour if/when he flips ring-scum, though, even if i weren't already blatantly town in comparison to twin flames.

I haven't the faintest but am guessing something to do with the ring

this is false. the first thing i asked the mod last night was whether you not flipping was a mistake. when he answered, the second thing i asked the mod is something i'll ask again publicly:

@Mod: Does the ring have any additional powers, other than investigation?

[zMuffinMan]

1. I got over the surprise last Night after I confirmed with the Mod that he was being serious.

why didn't you ask the mod whether it had something to do with the ring?

2. Right, because the ring hasn't already moved in convoluted and mysterious ways.

you should be thinking that it is strange because you didn't lose it after any of your investigations.

[zMuffinMan]

really? because he answered me when i asked about the possibility of additional ring powers.

and you

should

think it's strange because i'm advocating your lynch followed by twin flames lynch. if i were wraith-scum, this would give me a win.

[zMuffinMan]

actually.

@alienbro,

there is one scenario that could possibly solve this. let me hammer goodmorning today. if he is ring scum and i get the ring after his lynch, there are two scenarios here:

(1) twin flames kills me, he's confirmed scum, you lynch him tomorrow, gg town win

(2) i get the ring after goodmorning lynch. twin flames kills someone that isn't me. i then pass the ring to one of the two players that isn't twin flames still alive tomorrow. they can pass the ring amongst themselves as much as they want so that neither i nor twin flames would reasonably know who has the ring. after this, we no lynch, and there's a 50% chance of confirming i'm not lying

this works if i'm right in my suspicion that goodmorning is currently in possession of the ring

thoughts?

[zMuffinMan]

actually i suppose that's inherently flawed as well, because if i were wraith-scum i'd probably lie about the ring.

it's still the best plan if you at least think it's likely that i'm town. i'm not really sure how i can disprove any paranoia you have.

[zMuffinMan]

i was told i lost the ring when day started and i'm no longer in possession of it. i assumed it had something to do with me using it. i am not aware of the reason why i lost it, but my theory is that goodmorning has some sort of role modifier that allows him to reclaim the ring after it's used. if he happens to flip like "ring-attracting" or something like that, then this game gets a whole lot easier because what i'm saying is at least somewhat verifiable then.

gm is dying today. we're just discussing things that relate to the following day (assuming gm stays dead this time)

[zMuffinMan]

so yeah. ^ was in my response to whether the ring has powers outside of investigation.

@alienbro,

tell me what you think of #2471. i can't really think of a better alternative, given any other plan will just result in twin flames killing the hammerer.

[zMuffinMan]

Muffin are you aware that we can not hammer when we are already voting?

Seriously dude you are not making sense.

I would prefer the hammer please.

in light of the fact that anyone but me hammering is almost certainly dead tonight, what do you think of the plan i proposed in #2471 as an alternative to (possibly) confirming i'm town?

if you believe i'm town, or at least believe that it's likely i'm town, this is the best option i can think of to possibly prove what i'm saying is true.

if you have another idea to confirm what i'm saying, i'm welcome to suggestions.

[zMuffinMan]

Yeah, but destroying the ring does nothing for town if GM is ring-scum.

The problem is verifying that I am indeed town and telling the truth about Twin Flames being the last wraith-scum.

[zMuffinMan]

You should read your win condition again.

If GM's ring scum, then lynching him means the third parties are no longer a factor in this game (meaning the ring still being in play can only benefit town).

I am aware that the ring needs to be destroyed for us to win, but that could theoretically be done after all the scum is dead.

After GM is dead, the issue is figuring out who the wraith-scum is between me and Twin Flames. The solution I proposed seems to be the best approach to confirming me if anyone is still paranoid about me being town.

Plus, destroying the ring prevents any more shenanigans with scum.

The mod just publicly confirmed all the powers the ring grants the bearer.

[zMuffinMan]

Point being, the ring either has special effects with non-town members or you were lying about not having the ring today.

... if you believe i'm lying, then who hammers gm is a moot point (especially since anyone who isn't me hammering is dead tonight). and if you believe i'm telling the truth, then me hammering gm is the best option unless you have a better alternative.

How could we destroy the ring after scum is dead? Would the game continue on after all scum have died?

theoretically, why not?

may as well ask.

@Mod, if all the scum are dead and the ring is still in play, what happens?

[zMuffinMan]

ok. so in light of this being confirmed, do you agree or disagree that the plan i put forth is the most reasonable?

[zMuffinMan]

ok. there are obviously issues with any course of action today. i'm asking if you think my proposal is the most reasonable, not whether it is flawed. if you have a better alternative, i'm open to suggestions.

also it should be rather obvious that if i actually were scum, i wouldn't even care who hammers. the only reason i care is because i want to possibly confirm what i'm saying is true and get rid of any paranoia.

[zMuffinMan]

also it should be rather obvious that i don't currently have the ring. if i were lying about it, then obviously i wouldn't care who hammers. i would think the only reason you could really be paranoid of whether or not i'm town or scum is if you think everything i've said today is pure wifom, in which case i'd have to ask why you think i would do this as scum as opposed to keeping quiet, or lying about the investigation, or not mentioning losing the ring, or etc etc.

i agree it's strange i lost the ring (and i'd probably be paranoid if i didn't know what i'm saying is true), but if goodmorning flips something like "ring-attracting" or "ring thief" or whatever like i expect he will, then this should be cleared up anyway (at least, the fact that i'm not lying about losing the ring should be cleared up).

Vote: goodmorning

hopefully gm stays dead this time.

[zMuffinMan]

requoting this so nsin doesn't miss it and derp tomorrow.

if he is ring scum and i get the ring after his lynch, there are two scenarios here:

(1) twin flames kills me, he's confirmed scum, you lynch him tomorrow, gg town win

(2) i get the ring after goodmorning lynch. twin flames kills someone that isn't me. i then pass the ring to one of the two players that isn't twin flames still alive tomorrow. they can pass the ring amongst themselves as much as they want so that neither i nor twin flames would reasonably know who has the ring. after this, we no lynch, and there's a 50% chance of confirming i'm not lying

[zMuffinMan]

yeah. whatever. in case it wasn't already obvious i got the ring after the lynch (again) and lost it at day start (again). this time i lost it despite no action. so goodmorning has some mechanic that allows him to steal the ring back regardless. and of course i couldn't pass it or destroy it during night phase.

this sucks because he's got the ring so we can't lynch twin flames. we can't lynch him again because if survives and twin flames doesn't nk him, then he'll just get the ring back again tomorrow and we'll be stuck in a 2v1v1 where scum doesn't need to co-operate with us.

i'm thinking our only chance for a win is having someone else hammer gm and then have twin flames kill that person and take the ring, but even that's not guaranteed because i don't know how gm's ring stealing mechanic works and he could still get the ring back tomorrow.

so whatever. i'm out of ideas.

[zMuffinMan]

this is utterly retarded because we need twin flames to co-operate with us and he has no incentive to because we can't lynch him.

[zMuffinMan]

i like the nsin kill though. it's like a big "FUCK YOU" to town. "I CAN KILL WHO I WANT TO KILL AND YOU CAN'T DO SHIT ABOUT IT"

[zMuffinMan]

Yeah, except that obviously a lie because YOU KEEP LYING ABOUT HAVING THE RING

I would like to know how you're unlynchable, and I assume it has something to do with possession of the ring, which seems kind of dumb if that's the case because we can't beat the third party without co-operation from the other scum team.................

*sigh*

[zMuffinMan]

also that's obviously a fake-claim because no mod would tell you how many scum there are, and there's more than three scum anyway if you include Who. at least think through your fake-claim.

[zMuffinMan]

oh right three scum is mentioned in the rules post. whatever. still a fake-claim.

this game has come down to... i cannot think of a way to achieve my win con without help from someone who doesn't share my win con, and that would be playing against their win con, so i cannot achieve my win con.

shittastic

[zMuffinMan]

yeah you're town but you just kept hidden the fact that you're unlynchable so we waste two day phases and i keep getting the ring after your lynch then losing it the next day phase.

not a fakeclaim

[zMuffinMan]

there are so many things wrong with that post, but i'm not particularly interested in prolonging this game when i say no way to win.

still, it would be playing against my win con to vote twin flames so i can't.

gm has the ring. he is ring scum. a twin flames lynch means game over today.

[zMuffinMan]

see no way*

[zMuffinMan]

well, technically there is one way to win this. we could still feasibly execute my plan

if

twin flames attempted to kill good morning tonight. but i doubt that's going to happen, and i doubt twin flames is going to admit to being scum, so we can't exactly ask him if he's going to co-operate.

but whatever. if twin flames is lynched today, i don't particularly care one way or another (i'm not going to vote twin flames, but you're free to). the ring mechanic in this game is really frustrating.

[zMuffinMan]

i don't think goodmorning is NK immune - i think that is the only balancing aspect of it. this game is frustrating.

[zMuffinMan]

mm. the problem is the only way for town to win is to try to lynch gm again, and hope scum NKs him, and that the NK actually kills him.

but i can see how from you/alienbro's PoV you would be paranoid about whether i could be scum trying to get this into 4p mylo.

so i'm not sure what the solution to this is and it's making me feel apathetic towards this game.

[zMuffinMan]

"fucked up claiming" two days in a row, and lied about having the ring yesterday. but yeah whatever, gm will come in and hammer and gg.

frustrating game.

[zMuffinMan]

I am 100% confident the lynching Twin is our best option at this point giving us a chance to lynch muffin/GM tomorrow.

well, no, it technically doesn't. because even if i were wraith-scum, if you lynched twin flames today and GM is ring scum, then either you or alienbro would go into tomorrow having to decide which scum faction wins with no chance of a town win.

this is, of course, unless you really believe there is a chance that gm is town who has flat-out lied about his role two days in a row, which has been hugely detrimental to town because of the wasted lynches, and he's still holding onto the ring and lying about it as well, etc etc... and if you do believe that then... i have no words.

from my pov the only real way to achieve a town win is to go for a lynch on GM today, have me hammer, and then hope twin flames kills GM tonight. if anyone but me hammers, twin flames will just kill the person who hammers instead of GM to prevent an investigation (which just leads us to a scenario where town cannot win). if i hammer, at least twin flames can reasonably kill GM tonight and still have a chance of winning tomorrow if you believe i'm actually scum.

of course, the flaw here is obviously that twin flames can choose not to kill GM tonight. in which case, fuck it, i'm all for lynching twin flames tomorrow if this happens because we can't win anyway at that point. the other flaw is that i could be scum suggesting all this, at least from your pov.

and, of course, the final option you have today is you can just lynch twin flames and lose.

i've said everything i can say about this and have nothing further to say if you cannot see the obvious here. you and bro can decide how you want this to play out. i'm feeling so apathetic towards the ring mechanic that it's making me not really care about winning or losing.

[zMuffinMan]

Then the ring might not bounce back to GM and we can still lynch TF tomorrow?

it depends on how the ring mechanic works. if it's an active ability, it would depend on whether or not GM knows if it comes before or after kills in action resolution. if it's passive, then this doesn't help.

[zMuffinMan]

I don't think wasting more time on GM would be wise since that would put us in a Mylo situation tomorrow.

it's in wraith-scum's best interest to NK GM tonight (regardless of whether you think it's TF or me), so while it would be MyLo tomorrow, it's still better than outright losing today, imo.

the only reason it wouldn't be in wraith-scum's best interest to kill GM is if the ring is still in play and they need to kill whoever has the ring.

Yesterday should have been our day to let someone else hammer but whats done is done.

in hindsight, yes, but at the time i was assuming that the mod wouldn't allow someone to be completely unlynchable. assuming he was 1-shot unlynchable made the most sense and the plan i put forth was with that in mind. *shrug*

[zMuffinMan]

Why do you think GM lied about having the ring yesterday?

I'm going to make this very clear in case it wasn't already abundantly clear: The ring

is still in play

, and I think GM has it currently, and I think he's ring scum who will win if we lynch TF today.

GM lied about having it yesterday. I got it after his lynch so I know he was lying.

This is why there are no circumstances today in which I'll agree to a TF lynch.

But if you disagree, there is really not much I can do to stop you except to point out how silly I think it is.

[zMuffinMan]

i would rather try to lynch gm on the off-chance that he's only 2-shot unlynchable. if he's perma-unlynchable then it's functionally the same anyway.

[zMuffinMan]

jesus fucking christ

do you really believe GM is town?

at this point i'm starting to think he could blatantly say "i'm ring-scum" and you'd assume that he's trying to WIFOM the wraith-scum.

[zMuffinMan]

GM lied about having it yesterday. I got it after his lynch so I know he was lying.

Unless I was being set up.

Perhaps you

aren't

Town after all.

the more i read this post, the more i laugh at it, because when he was questioned about this yesterday, he was all like "nuP let's lynch twin flames i believe muffin"

now with victory in sight, he's being cheeky scum

[zMuffinMan]

@alienbro,

that would kind of defeat the purpose of lynching GM. wraithscum (whether you believe it's me or twin flames) would be forced to kill you, and it would go to a scenario where town cannot win if GM is ringscum.

a lynch on GM only works today if i hammer and wraithscum (whether you believe it's me or twin flames) kills GM tonight.

[zMuffinMan]

@dn,

the guilty on TF couldn't be acted upon because if GM is ringscum then we lose if we lynch TF. this is fairly basic. and it's not like i could have fucking planned it because how was i supposed to know GM was (possibly) completely unlynchable?

[zMuffinMan]

Yes, but it's possible that the ring won't jump back to GM if wraith-scum has it.

i don't want to try to outguess the mechanics of the ring.

i think i've already mentioned this, but if it's an active ability, and goodmorning knows whether it resolves before/after kills in action resolution, then he can get the ring back tomorrow anyway, AND we won't know whether or not he

does

have the ring because why would wraith-scum admit it. both scum players would deny it. and if it's a passive ability, then i don't want to assume that he can't get it back off wraith-scum.

[zMuffinMan]

yeah whatever. gg i guess. i'm interested in seeing how the ring mechanic works.

[zMuffinMan]

ok. first of all, i came into the game hoping against all odds that there would never be a massclaim because lol TREEBEARD WTF. i had planned to claim 1-shot commuter if it ever came down to it, but wow...

i had no idea i was partnered with a vig. so i was like LloLoLoLoL bus and didn't give it a second thought. when he claimed vig i was all like, "well, fuck me dead."

after that i was just... yeah... a bit apathetic, going with the flow. hangman with scum because why the fuck not?

then goodmorning claimed to have destroyed the ring and i was all like, "lololol you're scum!" because i'd already asked empking what happened if the ring is destroyed and he told me all win con one would be removed from the game.

then i got the ring and was like, "VICTORY!" then i lost it the first time and was like, "FUUUUUUUUUUUUUUCK."

then i got the ring again and was like, "PLEASE DON'T HAVE AN ACTIVE STEALING ABILITY!" and then day seven started and i received no PM saying i'd lost the ring. So I was like, "VICTORY!" and PMed Empking a question about the ring, only to have him be like, "trololol you actually lost it last night!". so i was like, "FUUUUUUUUUUUUCK... AGAIN."

>:|

[zMuffinMan]

technically the d1 lynch happened because subliminal did some weird bussing stuff where he brought monkey's scumminess to light then backed off. prior to that, monkey wasn't really under any suspicion.

and the d3 lynch was as a result of scum giving you the lynch.

but yeah, i probably would have been frustrated as town. but i also felt the same frustration as scum. trying to first figure out what the fuck the ring mechanic was, then how to get it, then how to keep it... sigh

[zMuffinMan]

No way they're scumbuddies right
RIGHT

mm. prior to that i had you as scum for how much you guys were harping on about destroying the ring and your posts just looked scummy. but that was a good example of bussing, though, because it wasn't like an instant turn, it was a turn after pages of questioning. 'twas good.

[zMuffinMan]

(well, it would have been better if you followed through with it but you backed off)