The Legend of Zelda: Defense of Hyrule (Night Eight)

[ActionDan]

AA what did you do last night?

[ActionDan]

Dan: How exactly do you figure I am the SK when Seanald Tracked me doing nothing on Nights 1 and 2?

Waiting on AA's result but we need to lynch a Ganonite toDay in order to not lose.

when the fuck did I say you were an SK?

[ActionDan]

that's the 2nd time you've put words in my mouth

[ActionDan]

Yo Dan, since you believe that only Hiraki/AA/Iso can be Ganonscum, and you have arrived at the conclusion that I can be scum with neither, doesn't that default to them being the remaining 2 Ganonscum?

for reference this was the 1st time.

I do agree with the necessity of killing ganon scum.

[ActionDan]

Let's do an exercise;

With 5 people remaining there is no reason not to try to look at associations between people to see if they are partners.

So please quote the following list of pairs (10 in total) and eliminate those that you don't think are ganon together and explain why.

Dan/Iec
Dan/AA
Dan/Iso
Dan/Hiraki
Iec/AA
Iec/Iso
Iec/Hiraki
AA/Iso
AA/Hiraki
Iso/Hiraki

I did this yesterday and my conclusions still apply today.

The only 3 remaining possibilities I get are:

Iec/AA
Iec/Iso
AA/Hiraki

I have explained why I find these pairings the only viable ones yesterday.

This also means that I'd vote AA over Hiraki and Iec over Iso regardless because if Hiraki/Iso is ganon I can only see AA/Iec being his partner.

I'd like for people to do the same. I think it would be easy for a ganon scum member to focus on one person and avoid implicating his/her partner.

[ActionDan]

it's going to work when there is 5 people left, and there is certain incontrovertible evidence that a few pairs are not together. (e.g Iso/Hiraki).

[ActionDan]

Also other evidence for pairs not working can be contested but at least for the ones I have eliminated the evidence is strong imo. Besides I think it's a good exercise for people to broaden their perspectives when they might not otherwise be doing so.

[ActionDan]

Iso/AA eliminated because of a major slapfight between the two. it's documented in their respective isos. It didn't look like partners distancing/bussing when I was reading but I'll go over it again.

Hiraki/Iso flat out doesn't work because a) JKLM (Sage unassociated with anyone remaining) rolecopped Hiraki as Day-vig and b) Hiraki used an action on ISO (though unconfirmed by itself, it is assumed to be a day-vig action through a.)

[ActionDan]

um, if you were scum with AA you wouldn't be quicklynched?

did you mean something else there?

[ActionDan]

in addendum to 2943, it follows that scum dayvigging their partner is retarded. Also balance wise that would pit a sage scum team of encryptor/rolecop/GF against BP (possibly limited I guess) / day-vig / 2-shot ninja. That 2nd team is about 2 times stronger.

[ActionDan]

also in your 2. you said I have a reason for not seeing Hiraki/AA together but that's a possibility that I listed???

[ActionDan]

Iec/AA
Iec/Iso
AA/Hiraki

again these are the only possible pairings I can see for ganon teams.

[ActionDan]

set-up spec that Dan has going for him.

I actually want to address this again. And again. And again if I have to.

Especially now that yet another fetch quest recipient has flipped town.

The fetch quest goes like this: Link borrows a mask from the happy mask salesman, gives it to the person who wants/requests it, gets money, gives the money to the happy mask salesman and borrows the next mask in the chain.

This chain goes like this: Keaton mask requested by Death Mountain Soldier Guard ---> Skull Mask wanted by the skull kid ---> Spooky mask wanted by the graveyard kid ----> Bunny hood wanted by the running man.

none of these characters are evil/bad/associated with death darkness sages or spiders.

Kagura (the happy mask salesman) had all these masks in his inventory and could give one (that he had to specify) out each night. 4/4 of the potential mask wearers had alluded to this by D1 by at least saying what mask they needed, and 3/4 had directly insinuated by D1 that we had hidden potential (those 3 being BBM, Me, and Seanald) (Porkens came out with his D2).

I have been confirmed to receive the Spooky mask by Kagura himself at the start of D3.

so let's run this by again like this:

Porkens ---> needed Skull mask ----> flipped Skull kid (town) --->

WHEN HE DIED THE SKULL MASK SHATTERED !!!

<--

Proves 1-to-1 correspondence from mask to character

BBM ---> needed Keaton mask ---> flipped Death Mountain Soldier Guard (town)
Seanald ----> needed Bunny hood -----> flipped Running Man (town)

now fill in the blanks.

ActionDan ----> needed Spooky Mask -----> will flip __________ (____)

if you answered Graveyard Boy and (town) you'd be proven not to have an IQ of 3!

[ActionDan]

Hiraki/Iso flat out doesn't work because a) JKLM (Sage unassociated with anyone remaining) rolecopped Hiraki as Day-vig and b) Hiraki used an action on ISO (though unconfirmed by itself, it is assumed to be a day-vig action through a.)

Oh fuck.

You're telling me that Hiraki is my remaining town-friend?

That's fucked up.

QQ.

you realize that in the very last post you wrote you were just considering AA/Hiraki a scum team.

[ActionDan]

If I am scum with AA, AA is still scum.

ok I see.

[ActionDan]

I guess I see what you meant now but I don't mind going over this again.

You are arguing based on a balance perspective even though the game started with 13 town and 7 scum and it should not be a surprise that town has 'stealth-Masons'. It requires people receiving their masks, and the mask-giver could very easily be killed before then. And we derped and lynched one of the 'stealth masons' people anyway early.

regardless, a balance argument is neither here nor there. This is a flavor argument. And a mechanics argument. you have not attempted to dispute either. Because you know, they are indisputable.

[ActionDan]

that is the first post in 2 days that makes me think you might be town.

I'll accept that.

[ActionDan]

ISO, do you see Hiraki and Iec being buddies as a possibility?

[ActionDan]

I mean, I could dredge up posts trying to figure out who between AA/Hiraki/Iece is Ganon/SK based on interactions, but the way I see it, we have a surefire shot in Hiraki, and only a 1/2 chance of hitting Ganonscum in the other two.

Why, are you convinced that Iece is Ganonscum?

I'm not convinced 100%. It's a combination of interactions with LNGrrr (primarily - entirely what LNGrrr has said about remaining players), Iec's vote and case that I thought was atrocious yesterday even though now he says that the set-up spec makes me a net positive for town (and that information was available yesterday) and also the role spec Iec himself went on about implicates him (how to balance possible ganon roles with sage scum roles, though it's possible AA is roleblocker not jailkeeper and that you are limited BP and not full).

Also I am more sure of Iec/Hiraki not being ganon scum together than you/AA not being scum together. You'd really do well to look over the events of yesterday where me + Iece were at 2 votes each... I wasn't on the Iec wagon just then but I'm sure to anyone looking I could well have been and was most likely going to vote Iec. What motivation does ganon-scum Hiraki have to debate and conclude to stick his vote to Iecerint mid-way through the day. He could have concocted at least some reason to vote something else (Empking was a prime choice... hell if he wanted to he could have joined my already at 2 votes wagon).

Seriously guys? You've all got nothing?

We actually did a Jailkeep last night on ActionDan...

We have two Mafia left which makes me disturbed...

Why did you jailkeep me. Why would you ever do that when I claimed commuter that could have commuted last night (which ftr I said I was either 3-shot with a shot left or else non-consecutive) and therefore Seanald was going to be the most likely death (regardless of the fact that it's likely somebody did try to shoot me as well). I,e. Why would you ever not jailkeep Iec or Hiraki?

[ActionDan]

Thoughts on that are as follows: SK tried to kill me, or AA is lying about her action.

The fact that she even jailed me makes me think she's ganon jailkeeper, I would have either jailed Iec/Hiraki. Tbh, even Seanald was a better jail because with that you'd be gunning for 6p (which would be phenomenally better than what we have right now).

There is however a kill missing and while we are mentioning possibilities it's possible SK no killed not to risk 2-1-1 and quite possibly be endgamed.

[ActionDan]

also people that expressed wanting me dead != people who secretly want me dead lol.

As to your chalking that behavior up to Hiraki being buddy-buddy with Empking... it's definitely true there was a unexplained town read on Empking coming form Hiraki (well the only explanation was I don't notice bad things from Empking => Empking is town) I really don't think that's enough of a reason for Hiraki to stick to Iec over other people there, especially when Empking was dead weight imo anyway.

[ActionDan]

Basically, anyone not voting Hiraki right now needs to:

A. Fix it
or
B. Tell me why you're not voting him and convince me to vote someone else.

Like I said the only possible ganon teams I can see are

Hiraki/AA
Iec/AA
Iec/Iso

Which means that if Hiraki = ganon => AA = ganon. Which means I should always be voting AA over Hiraki.

Atm that recent AA vote unto Hiraki doesn't make me feel that they are aligned.

Time to see if quickhammer happens.

[ActionDan]

in fact Imma go over all the possibilities from people's perspectives myself because I suspect I won't be getting more out of people (cough AA cough).

total

Dan/Iec
Dan/AA
Dan/Iso
Dan/Hiraki
Iec/AA
Iec/Iso
Iec/Hiraki
AA/Iso
AA/Hiraki
Iso/Hiraki

Iso/Hiraki should be a universal =><= (contradiction) and frankly Hiraki/Iec should be too (and also Dan/Iec for similar reasons). I am going to look over AA/Iso later to see again if their interactions are not distancing/bussing, but I'll leave that pairing up for now.

So then from Iec's perspective:

Dan/AA
Dan/Iso
Dan/Hiraki
AA/Iso
AA/Hiraki

From Iso's perspective:

Dan/AA
Dan/Hiraki
Iec/AA
AA/Hiraki

From Hiraki's perspective:

Dan/AA
Dan/Iso
Iec/AA
Iec/Iso
AA/Iso

From AA's perspective:

Dan/Iso
Dan/Hiraki
Iec/Iso

From my perspective:

Iec/AA
Iec/Iso
AA/Iso
AA/Hiraki

so yeah, oddly if AA thinks Hiraki is ganon, she should be voting for me. The other interesting thing is that as long as ISO and Iec think I'm town/SK they should be voting for AA, while AA should be certain that the team is ISO/Iec

^these pairings rely on Iec/Hiraki and Iec/Dan not being teams which should be clear by yesterday.

This all may be mute analysis if quickhammer happens. bbl doing errands.

[ActionDan]

So, do you think I should be voting for AA over Hiraki? What's the logic there?

I see you're voting AA anyway but the logic here was that I was assuming a Iec / Hiraki pairing was impossible.

Therefore, from your perspective, and if you think at least that I'm non-ganon, then whoever of these two is ganon, the partner of either has to be AA.

The reason I include the 'if you think at least that I'm non-ganon' is that a Hiraki / Dan pairing has no reason to be ruled out by any associative behavioral basis (unlike the Iec / Dan pairing for instance).

Anyway, two votes are out. everyone's posted with no quickhammer attempt on Hiraki. Which basically means at least one ganon scum between Hiraki / AA. And if no quickhammer follows this last vote on Iso, same implication except between Iso/AA.

[ActionDan]

If that follows, then seeing as Iso/Hiraki is absolutely impossible... => AA ganon.

I'm pretty excited.

[ActionDan]

by you.

tbh I don't think Hiraki and Iec are scum together so I'm not sure what I'm expecting.

And no one from AA hydra is saying much and probably expect to die. ?

Well I'm going to test the existence of Iec/Iso scum team so here goes

VOTE: AA

[ActionDan]

/shrug?

gl scum with night kills

[ActionDan]

Oh I suppose Hiraki is only ganon now if AA is ganon: <-------- universal conclusion since there is no reason not to hammer for ganon!Hiraki.

[ActionDan]

next level play gdi

[ActionDan]

I entertained the possibility of that but I didn't think BP/1-shot day-vig/2-shot ninja was anything close to encrpytor/GF/rolecop. (that is the former team was much stronger).

I can't beat myself up over this considering how far I got when the super awesome mask power was a 2-shot cop protection (not protection from rolecops even).

And the choices I had to begin with were a trap anyway (choice between GF and BP; <---- always go BP)

[ActionDan]

well now I'm just sad

[ActionDan]

I guess I can't be sadder than sage scum who were 100% doomed to lose from the start

[ActionDan]

actually yes I can because at least their demise was painless in comparison

[ActionDan]

gdi mhork I trusted your sense of balance.

[ActionDan]

not to mention that out of 13 people town power was

jailkeeper
macho bodyguard
loved
maskgiver
3x mask activated things
universal mask backup (unsure if he gets a power regardless of activation)

^the above is terribly weak.

[ActionDan]

maskgiver dies early --> town 100% fucked.

jailkeeper dies early ---> town 90% fucked.

[ActionDan]

ok I'm done raging I suppose. Even Kasparov couldn't have won there.

[ActionDan]

actually I'd rather have had that mask make me a strongman. that would have been glorious.

[ActionDan]

Odd/even kills need to be balanced towards the even kill team being more powerful, since they will usually get less kills over time and have a general tempo loss.

while true I still think teams were severly imbalanced.

My reads were pretty good at one point and then the Hiraki Iso thing fucked em up good.

[ActionDan]

Odd/even kills need to be balanced towards the even kill team being more powerful, since they will usually get less kills over time and have a general tempo loss.

while true I still think teams were severly imbalanced.

My reads were pretty good at one point and then the Hiraki Iso thing fucked em up good.

[ActionDan]

I probably sent Mhork like 20 Pms to keep myself sane...

here's one:

Keybladewielder - crumbed some PR power
Waynegg - mask related PR thing. maybe backup unlocker. maybe just trying to fake crumb every role he ever knows as VT
Hiraki - Mason with Empking or scum
Leviathan93 - .... I don't even. maybe not actually town
Empking* - Mason with Hiraki or scum
JKLM - Sage scum rolecop
BBmolla MollaDoni - town hidden potential power!
Seanald* - town hidden potential power!
BulbaZak - if scum, sage scum. but probably town
Albert B. Rampage* Iso - Had a pink fairy on him probably. otherwise known as, adult link! - town or 1-shot BP ganon scum - either way not a threat
The Acting Method Amethyst Actor - probable PR, maybe doctor/tracker
RadiantCowbells - Ganon army scum, scum slipped in thread by even mentioning ganon's army
Kagura - unlocker-san
ActionDan - me!
Iecerint - town probable PR doctor

[ActionDan]

well. considering I was basically had all the power of a BP goon SK ignoring the 2-shot power up that was basically a detriment because I had to fakeclaim some godforsaken role like commuter... I had the same power as 1/3 of the ganon scum team. that's just for a thought experiment.

If we compare the teams directly we can see that all the sage members are vulnerable to NKs of which there will be 1-2 against them. the strongest role they have is a rolecop... which with sage's 1-kill / per 2 nights isn't going to be used to help inform the NKs since the limiting factor is the lack of them. It does help for fomenting fakeclaims / informing day play BUT in comparison to the ganon scum day-vig I'd say the day-vig is in a game with 7 scum, going to assumed to be town because it's COMFIRMABLE (big super ++) so no need to worry about fakeclaims! + it drastically increases the amount of planning and options available to the scum team that possesses it. Want to kill a PR that keeps jailing you in the night? BAM. how about a townie that suspects you? BAM. how about exposing that SK that you just can't kill? BAM

[ActionDan]

N1 thoughts as another sample before my mind was corrupted and back when I thought there was just me + one 4-man scum team:

Hmm. With the more introspection and considering other people to be possessing hidden potentials, It seems I was wrong before about Waynegg. He is in fact the happy salesman, and he unlocks people by giving them the right mask. So far hidden potential holders are Seanald and BBmolla... Since they've claimed as much. Kagura and Bulbazak may very well have some of the self-same potentials. I believe Bulb's character is the Running Man. He needs the bunny hood (I think) but he gave indications that he didn't have hidden potential so I'm a little confused. Kagura also clamored for the bunny hood so if Bulb doesn't need it, I'd say Kagura does. (They also thought Wayegg was town for a reason but maybe they thought he was simply navi). Molla wanted Keaton. That might make him my fakeclaim character's father, the death mountain guard (which means he's probably a BodyGuard/protective role. Might unlock elite bodyguard. Good for me if so, I can't die to that). Seanald is probably Skull Kid by POE and maybe he unlocks vig or some other offensive ability.

One of those guys above is probably scum. I don't think It's bulba. He used the running man Fake claim too aggressively if so (also probably unlocks commuter if he isn't already one). Don't think it's Molla since he was first to mention hidden potential. Leaves Kagura/Seanald. Oddly I think it's Kagura. I'll know if he dies by scum today or tomorrow. Today I'll wait for a Kagura/Molla death, and leave Wayegg alive in case he unlocks molla. He'll probably unlock me N2. Maybe I kill him then :3. Today I get a kill of my choice until I'm forced to kill Wayegg (or molla/Kagura if one survives today) Leave ISO alive for scum to kill. Leave scum Iecerint alive for later. I'll be pushing Seanald as soon as town decides it wants info about power roles, but not before. I really hope the spooky mask unlocks me (because it would unlock my fakeclaim so... hmmm).

I need to kill another obv-town. My suspects for tomorrow will be TAOS, Porkens, and Empking (and I think 2 are scum). A pity the others that are more nullish suspect me a bit... I can just tell AA/Levi are gonna get me tomorrow. And Hiraki should he decide to fuck me over cuz I suspect Empking will be a pain in the ass to deal with.

Obv-town or considered to be really:

Waynegg (leave him alive for laters, I want my powerz)
Alsark (I really want to kill him. If I had an extra shot, I would. he's on to me kinda, he's obvtown, and probably is a weak power role to boot. But I just can't yet)
MollaDoni (scumkill material / doc protect material / don't want to double shoot)
Iso (scum kill / doc protect / don't want to double shoot / thinks I'm town)
Kagura (If he's town I'd love to see him die but / doc protect material / won't cop me if cop etc.)
Kise (PR or scum I think / not doc protect material / hasn't said a word about me / obv-town to people for some reason, though not to me at all)
ActionDan (I'm not a true universal town read... but I'm up there.. I'm in a good spot for now)
Iecerint (I keep convincing myself he's scum. so he is probably. I want him to live regardless as long as he has me as town)

Other people considered not as town:

LnGrrrR (god he's so town. w/e best not to stir that pot)
Hiraki (could easily be scum, but I wish not to mess with him, possible mislynch)
Leviathan93 (also town, would rather see him die, he might wisen up and want to kill me T_T)
Empking (I actually think this one is scum. distancing from the town lynch, not pushing other people, etc.)
JKLM (town as balls. I'll be his buddy and never try to hurt him for a good while)
Seanald* (leaning town but you never know, eventually I'll make a push on him)
Bulbazak (probably town, but not sure how to handle him. as long as he wants to lynch other scum I'm fine with him living)
Amethyst Actor (town, but nobody can see it or else they are overthinking it. Kagura scum is trying to retcon his town read on this. Annoyed AA doesn't have a town read on me. Possible mislynch someday? maybe.)
RadiantCowbells (lol this. maybe benign PR, probably won't touch me. I'll leave this one to it's fate. lynchbait?)

people that everyone thinks are scum:

theaceofspades (looks town to me, but easy to spin the other way. Will be one of my other suspects. lynchbait?!)
Porkens (probably scum... though maybe not? I have doubts. But Whatever. I'll push this one to the ground if I can. lynchbait!)

So my all-star scum team is Porkens/Iec/Kagura/Empking... and if one is wrong, swap out Hiraki.

With that I'll kill the guy who's town or if scum could easily bs his way into being town and lynching me.
AKA.

KILL: KISE

also fuck yes if he's the cop and randomly cops me

[ActionDan]

more things from this game I guess because jesus how was town so bad I felt like I carried everybody and still didn't win:

Bulba was pretty damn town? the hell was he lynched for.
DIDNT ANYONE REALIZE THAT A MACHO BODYGUARD => TOWN PROTECTIVE ROLE => AA TOWN? ok caps are harsh maybe but damn
It took a century for people to realize JKLM was obviously scum by claim.
RC what kind of claim was that. plz never again.
I really am surprised Iec was town D7 onwards.

Special bonus:
@Empking: STOP SHOOTING ME. I BEGGED TWICE FOR SAGE SCUM TO SHOOT TOWN PEOPLE.

Well I was BP only and the 2-shot thing was something to sneeze at frankly considering 1 - cop + I had to make up a power.

being BP for myself meant that any scum team that shot me would auto reveal that were one of it's members lynched and they had 2+ members during twilight: See what JKLM said. yeah, that was the truth 100% (well besides that we got redirected bs I guess) And before I got the mask I wasn't immune to investigations though it hardly mattered this game.

BP claim isn't hard to fathom in a game with 7 scum sorry.
same with a day-vig ("you mean this scum guy with a day-vig can get a free shot at town when town only have 13 to begin with? Yeah, that sure is scum! pffft") also why would scum ever do a day-kill + night kill (well unless scum derped like they did here). you shouldn't factor that in for balance since it really should have been a non-issue.

[ActionDan]

like I don't really care how good sage's dayplay should have been if ganon have someone who can shoot whoever they want whenever they want in the face. (also ganon endgame potential is amazing and about 1000 times better than useless sage. who only sit back and watch roles and kills fly around them and have no dmg control)

[ActionDan]

Dan: Why didn't you kill Hiraki on the last Night? It was your only chance at winning, which I thought you would have realized.

I thought the team was Iece/Iso due to him shooting you. Well, I at least thought it was not Hiraki/Iso so Iece had to be a partner.

Most of what I said on Day 8 I believed.

[ActionDan]

Oh I thought you were very very town seanald and played well

And hiraki/Iso played well too and it took some guts to pull off that gambit

[ActionDan]

You are so full of shit, Dan.

Iso, I was being very necessarily belligerent.

ggs, see you next Tecmo.

your right I was!

And I knew precisely what you meant back then too

[ActionDan]

I am still a bit taken aback that you voted me at the start of D5 even though there was tons more evidence against people like Hiraki and Empking.

I mean I understood your argument but I was pretty malleable all the same with my 'reads'. Like I changed my stance on JKLM from D3-D4 because of that rolecop getting GF results thing (even thought I actually asked that question to Mhork D2 or so because I was wondering if a rolecop could have breached my investigative immunity... when I heard the answer was yes I assumed no rolecop. So I thought JKLM was at a scum rolecop the whole time lol)

[ActionDan]

er start of D7

[ActionDan]

but Mara said she thought I was town O_O

[ActionDan]

that makes sense T_T. I was very confused by the changing kill flavor. I thought you actually were rewarded a kill every night since sages died and that the other kills were in fact sage kills (and that for some reason JKLM lied about who was odd/even).

Yeah I thought I had to win for sure after killing ganon --> no lynch ---> kill town ---> endgame you since I thought you were limited BP (and now I wonder how that end game would turn out.... we couldn't have killed each other)

[ActionDan]

It would have been a draw between SK and Ganon scum.

[ActionDan]

Oh spider...

[ActionDan]

Any role is able to be part of any alignment. That's kinda the point... :/

Because Bulletproof Investigative Immune could be town... or 2-shot ninja could be town. very clear.

[ActionDan]

or encryptor and godmother!