Tales of You (Endgame)

[Clyton]

Hello everyone. I am You.

VOTE: Clyton

[Clyton]

VOTE: Clyton

VOTE: Clyton

That's Nati's schtick. We don't need two egotistical self-voters in the same game.

And

I

clearly don't need a shiny Gyarados because his worth as a Pokemon is simply outclassed by other Pokemons.

*Insert something RVS worthy*

At least you gave me a reason wannabe dragon, so I ain't doubting that; be proud of your actions. Hand me some rum, and maybe I'll consider looking at you in a different... light, like how the horrid stench of Rancid's charisma overwhelmed me and me senses. But to the peasant sheep without a reason, I will also give no reason for my no response. Their vote in vain, no pressure gained.

/End JnG because mastin2 has clearly forced my hand in this game.

Maybe a simple read, but I have no intentions of changing your views directly. I will let all of my following posts hereon after this to show the masses of how they view me, lest I fall behind and I find myself needing more time for my crucial examinations.

NTS: Post haste!

[Clyton]

Alright something to post for now as a response. RG, I ask you elaborate on your reasoning. What comparison do you have that you can use to compare to the posts I'm doing here regarding my authenticity? If you are uncertain about me being genuine, I can easily clear that up for you now.

On the other hand, I will be compiling and posting my full list reads very soon, and my opinion regarding the debacle between Titan and MastinSSK.

[Clyton]

I'm townreading beliffery because I've liked what they've posted so far even if it's kinda devoid of too much content. Scum-ffery has different undertones that I don't really smell (granted we're on P11 but lol).

Clyton, I have no meterstick to judge with, only my gut. Your selfvote and then your response to Brian sounded artificial in nature. Like you were going through the motions (say, going to an ex's wedding and pretending you're happy for them)

My self-vote is a random vote as part of the RVS, and my response was all jokes and games until the /End JnG portion of my response post. This is because I realized the fact that MastinSSK is not fond of self-votes. Speaking of that, I forgot to unvote.

/Unvote

Now, continuing on, this is obviously not how I genuinely act, at least nothing compared to the outside sites where I played Mafia. I will not redirect the suspicion on myself, for I deserve it for such experimental meta actions. But do not misunderstand, I will not be bluntly giving a self-meta of myself. As stated before, I will let my actions speak for themselves, and I will let you and all the rest judge me accordingly to my actions.

[Clyton]

Disclaimer: My reads are based on posts I find noteworthy. No RVS posts (obviously), no null-read posts considered. If there is a post that any of you would like to direct me to and want me to give an opinion of (because no one knows which posts I actually skipped merely based on a reads list), then let me know. I will sort this from most Town to the most Scum.



Red Gyarados: Townish to me. First page, they already declared their attempt to sort people, specifically targeting the "elites" because they have the most potential to influence the game based on prior meta knowledge/past games.

Lord Business: Townish in regards to going against CupcakePanda's scummish posts. However, it can be easily be scum making that comment too (agreeing with Mac therefore for pointing that out). Good defense against Titan, which I agree with. Probably settle with him leaning Town in the end. Good points on the state of Day 1 on what it should be and what it should not be.
Note: We may think alike in some regards, so this may not be an accurate read for any of you.

Mac: Leaning Townish for now. Good informational exchange between him and Rancid through a bunch of pirate gibberish.

Titan: Leaning Townish. Decides to use Nacho to prove everyone of his Town alignment (refer to post 74/I do not know how to reference ISO posts). The two could be in cahoots as scum, or Titan is a very paranoid Townie and does not want what happened in a past game (scum ganging up on her and eliminate all her credibility), therefore needing immediate support in fear of that happening (MastinSSK did mention something similar to my thinking).

Rancid: Leaning Townish, but can easily be scum. He has good points about CarbonFiber's OP in response to Mac's metadive.

PeregrineV: Null but slightly leaning Townish too. Gives off that certain vibe I know of.

The Fox and the Hound: Null. Need more info on something with more substance (not posts regarding who's side you are taking)

Breakfast With Stalin: Null

Kagura: Null

Yukari Yakumo: :3 aka Null

ElementalHawk: N/A

MastinSSK: Seems scummish to me. Attacks Titan for a reason that also does not seem confrontational to me. Also attacks Fox for taking a stance with Titan. However, with how they are approaching this, it is Town natured, and not only in this mini-battle, but also in their responses and questions to everyone else.

CarbonFiber: Leaning scummish. Makes valid points in his posts, but that should be enough to take action. Instead, he brings out the "I'm not sure yet so I'll hold off." However, understandably, my meta has some similarities to this line of action. Therefore, I will hold it off and could potentially see CF as Town too.

Just Sheep Us: Leaning scummish. Their vote against me does not warrant a response from me.

orcinus_theoriginal: Leaning scummish just for the random, no-reason vote.

CupcakePanda: Scummish to me. Feigning ignorance? Deliberately posting a notice of a lack of flavor knowledge in order to build up a naive appearance? If I was a Townie coming into a game with no flavor knowledge, I wouldn't be doing that unless I'm contributing and need some flavor knowledge in order to build up stronger yet applicable contributions. So far, Panda isn't contributing yet.



Other notes:

Nati/SSK dynamics always happen in the early stages of Day 1.

Mac notes that MastinSSK's style of opening has a strong correlation to a scum (was this scum also MastinSSK?) who did the same opening in the Touhou game.

Rancid claims that MastinSSK's posts have not appeared scummy yet. However, he has yet to comment on the updated posts MastinSSK did after that comment. Do they still not appear scummy after all those updated posts?

Titan vs MastinSSK:

- It wasn't confrontational because Titan was asking Kagura for a read on the former in a forceful manner. Kagura hasn't even stated anything; Titan "requested" a read. But I understand Mastin's sentiments on it being confrontational. I think the right words are "forceful" (why the pressure vote then?)

- Titan's responses however are very OMGUS natured; unfortunately, it is indeed what she feared in regards to a previous game.

- Likewise, Mastin is not any better. Immediately attacks Fox for taking a stance with Titan with a vote.

Conclusion: Titan and MastinSSK, as described in my reads above, can be easily Town or Scum for a multitude of reasons. We cannot dismiss this confrontation so easily. We must determine if there is legitimately a scum between the two, or if it is a Town vs Town. On the other hand, we use some role abilities to aid us in this investigation and focus on lynching someone else.

My suggestions on those who should be lynched today? Only CupcakePanda honestly. However, we need more info not only from Panda, but from everyone with vague actions and posts (like orcinus, Just Sheep Us and PeregrineV).

[Clyton]

I may see if I can't solidify that a bit.

Rancid: Leaning Townish, but can easily be scum. He has good points about CarbonFiber's OP in response to Mac's metadive.

PeregrineV: Null but slightly leaning Townish too. Gives off that certain vibe I know of.

Can you go into further detail on these?

The Fox and the Hound: Null. Need more info on something with more substance (not posts regarding who's side you are taking)

I'm getting there.

Certainly.

PeregrineV: Some people pointed out his OP as scummy, even questioning him on basis of "do you even know RVS is over?" It is an easy way to get into the game with that kind of OP. However, what if Peregrine legitimately did not even read the thread? What if he was just informing us that he was going to catch up and decided to post that hastily (because he doesn't have time to look back over multiple pages of posts)? When Peregrine was making the post, he simply did not know RVS was over and was under the assumption that it was still going on (it's Day 1 with one day barely passing; you don't expect much progress that early).

In order words, I believe the contents of his post is genuine. Also, better letting us know he's here rather than not posting yet (ElementalHawk).

Rancid: I based off his Towniness based on his exchange with Mac. They make a lot of good points that are very Town-directed. He falls under the same boat as MastinSSK where in Mastin's case, his responses are scummy but how he approaches them are Townish. Likewise, Rancid responses are Townish but how he approaches them can just as easily be scummy (following along the initiator aka Mac). Regardless, he is doing a good job giving off a null read with one head trolling with the pirate approach and the other head hiding behind that trolling head. Either way, he has something to hide.

[Clyton]

Then let me speak something relevant to the here and now. I firmly believe that even though I stated the importance in dealing with the Titan vs Mastin battle, I would resort to option 2: using role abilities in helping us deduce the alignments of both of you. Should we tackle you two right now based on the debate posts, I fear it will lead us nowhere unless either you two or anyone else involved slips up.

Therefore, my action will be to lynch CupcakePanda until an opening is found in this battle of arguments. (I'm on my phone now so I can't bold but I will vote for CupcakePanda once I get home; this is to let all of you know my intentions)

Never mind I can do that.

VOTE: CupcakePanda

[Clyton]

And this is a vote to pressure her to speak up. I doubt a lynch can be made for her today.

[Clyton]

Regardless, he is doing a good job giving off a null read with one head trolling with the pirate approach and the other head hiding behind that trolling head. Either way, he has something to hide.

I think ye be a bit confused,
Because while some of me posts be subpar,
This might leave ye a bit amused,
Only one head has posted so far

Let me be the Marlon to your Rimes.

I can't rhyme for crap so there.

Although seriously, my opinion stands. I am led to believe you are hiding something. Then again, everyone is hiding something.

Posting in response to CF afterwards.

[Clyton]

Clyton, in your breakdown of reads, you have Titan as leaning town and MastinSSK as leaning scum. You seem to be saying now that the debate between Mastin and Titan could involve either of them being scum. Why? Do you see merits to both sides of the arguments? Also, can you link to a couple of town and scum games that you've played offsite.
~ F-16

I only put Titan as leaning town and MastinSSK as leaning scum for the sake of a reads list; it really has no significance to what I really think except which stance I'm learning towards to. I see merits to both sides of the argument. I believe that when I think from either person's perspectives, I can easily be Town or Scum in both scenarios.

Also, the site I played cannot be viewed by outsiders unless you register an account. I can link you anyways, and you do the searching after making an account there. I will link you to a particular Death Note Mafia game where I was a SK with a bunch of other hidden abilities attributed to it. I believe that however unrefined my playstyle/meta was there, it still holds true to today.

If you want to question my playstyle/meta, then do so in a direct manner. I may have said that I wouldn't openly explain my meta bluntly, but it doesn't mean you can ask to fish out some information about myself from me.

[Clyton]

I may see if I can't solidify that a bit.

Rancid: Leaning Townish, but can easily be scum. He has good points about CarbonFiber's OP in response to Mac's metadive.

PeregrineV: Null but slightly leaning Townish too. Gives off that certain vibe I know of.

Can you go into further detail on these?

The Fox and the Hound: Null. Need more info on something with more substance (not posts regarding who's side you are taking)

I'm getting there.

Certainly.

PeregrineV: Some people pointed out his OP as scummy, even questioning him on basis of "do you even know RVS is over?" It is an easy way to get into the game with that kind of OP. However, what if Peregrine legitimately did not even read the thread? What if he was just informing us that he was going to catch up and decided to post that hastily (because he doesn't have time to look back over multiple pages of posts)? When Peregrine was making the post, he simply did not know RVS was over and was under the assumption that it was still going on (it's Day 1 with one day barely passing; you don't expect much progress that early).

In order words, I believe the contents of his post is genuine. Also, better letting us know he's here rather than not posting yet (ElementalHawk).

Rancid: I based off his Towniness based on his exchange with Mac. They make a lot of good points that are very Town-directed. He falls under the same boat as MastinSSK where in Mastin's case, his responses are scummy but how he approaches them are Townish. Likewise, Rancid responses are Townish but how he approaches them can just as easily be scummy (following along the initiator aka Mac). Regardless, he is doing a good job giving off a null read with one head trolling with the pirate approach and the other head hiding behind that trolling head. Either way, he has something to hide.

Hm, alright. What did you mean by "that certain vibe"?

Certain vibe as in a vibe of genuineness.

[Clyton]

Oh I am Ex-World Ruler over there btw CF.

[Clyton]

Clyton, in your breakdown of reads, you have Titan as leaning town and MastinSSK as leaning scum. You seem to be saying now that the debate between Mastin and Titan could involve either of them being scum. Why? Do you see merits to both sides of the arguments? Also, can you link to a couple of town and scum games that you've played offsite.
~ F-16

I only put Titan as leaning town and MastinSSK as leaning scum for the sake of a reads list; it really has no significance to what I really think except which stance I'm learning towards to. I see merits to both sides of the argument. I believe that when I think from either person's perspectives, I can easily be Town or Scum in both scenarios.

Also, the site I played cannot be viewed by outsiders unless you register an account. I can link you anyways, and you do the searching after making an account there. I will link you to a particular Death Note Mafia game where I was a SK with a bunch of other hidden abilities attributed to it. I believe that however unrefined my playstyle/meta was there, it still holds true to today.

If you want to question my playstyle/meta, then do so in a direct manner. I may have said that I wouldn't openly explain my meta bluntly, but it doesn't mean you can ask to fish out some information about myself from me.

My initial impression from your reads list was that it was meticulous and detailed and much more likely to come from town. The reason I wanted your games was to see how much you are capable of faking it as scum and if there were any patterns to your town and scum play. I might make an account there if it becomes necessary later on. What I wanted to see was games where you were town and mafia in. SK is usually different and I discount SK play for meta.

Also, you say I made "valid points" but without taking action. I agree that I usually wait for reads to solidify and hold off on voting a lot of the time until I am fairly certain about the direction I want to go. You say that your meta has similarities to that. What similarities?

~ F-16

Fair enough. I will do say this in regards to my experience there at the offsite. No one has ever given an accurate read on me, because my playstyle is the same regardless of my alignment. You can't simply figure me out unless you enlist the aid of the system; using your roles that is.

It is as you say. I do not make a move unless I'm 100% confident this is what I want to go with. No regrets. Whatever comes, I can deal with accordingly.

[Clyton]

Scum
Town

To be fair, I don't have a history of the list of games I played in that site. I have to manually check with role/alignment I had, and I rather not do that cause it is taxing for me. Also, the playstyles I had back then is vastly different compared to the refined one I play right now. Not to mention they are different caliber of players compared to the list of players here. But take it what you will.

[Clyton]

Then let me speak something relevant to the here and now. I firmly believe that even though I stated the importance in dealing with the Titan vs Mastin battle, I would resort to option 2: using role abilities in helping us deduce the alignments of both of you. Should we tackle you two right now based on the debate posts, I fear it will lead us nowhere unless either you two or anyone else involved slips up.

Therefore, my action will be to lynch CupcakePanda until an opening is found in this battle of arguments. (I'm on my phone now so I can't bold but I will vote for CupcakePanda once I get home; this is to let all of you know my intentions)

Never mind I can do that.

VOTE: CupcakePanda

And this is a vote to pressure her to speak up.

FUCKING LOL
HASN'T EVEN BEEN 24HRS YET MATE

An unnecessary response lel. Would you be happy if I unvoted and ask you to speak up anyways? Mind you I'm not the only one wanting you to do so.

[Clyton]

CarbonFiber, I will respect your decision. But I will stand with my own decision too. I will continue to look for an opening to see if either Mastin or Titan will slip up. Until then, I will not take part in the votes against either. Here is my rationale for using investigative abilities to determine their alignments.

1. If we lynch one of them now, and that person turns up Town, then sometimes, people will hastily proclaim "the other person must be scum!" This is extremely problematic due to the nature of Titan's AND Mastin's responses towards attackers.
2. In fear of a Townie vs Townie, I do not want to direct our efforts towards analyzing them through pure deduction and conjecture. We must consider other people who have scum tells.
2a. This is especially important because of the possibility that one or both have extremely valuable roles.
3. Telling people to use investigative abilities on them will not expose themselves. Mafia will not know who is performing the abilities.
4. Mastin have decided to "volunteer", and stated that it can be gamebreakingly powerful and in the favor of a Town. This is a gambit I am willing to take this early on in the game.

On the other hand.

/Unvote

I will have to reread this damn thread once again, but I want to double check on my archives and see if there is something noteworthy, strange or anything interesting.

[Clyton]

Oh I am Ex-World Ruler over there btw

According to that sites stats you won all 5 of your mafia aligned games.

Yes I did. However, the caliber of players there are vastly different compared to this site. But I can understand an argument can be made with my completely refined playstyle as of right now to make up for the difference.

[Clyton]

And what exactly is wrong with my posts being "supposedly" reactionary Mr. Hawk? Am I not allowed to see how the person reacts? Must this be a lean towards a scum just for the sole fact that I'm trying to make myself important and innocent?

You must look at both sides. For example, even reminding the person this vote is a pressure vote has its benefits, and I clearly have gotten what I needed out of it from CupcakePanda.

[Clyton]

My apologies for the lack of response. I have been following along, rest assured. I did not really have new contributions to add. But let me remind you all once again of what I am thinking.

So, anyone here still think MastinSSK is town?

-FT

As said before personally, I think MastinSSK has an equal chance to be scum just as much as being town. I did say I was not going to vote him (nor Titan), but I feel we all must reach a decision. The amount of discussion going on, while having some substance, does not really point towards a certain direction (if you feel there is something we are leading towards to, please tell me). This isn't for me, but for the rest of you in the game, I feel people are waiting for the chance to see who will make the first move. The debate between Mastin and Titan has been no doubt been the highlight of the day, and perhaps, some of you are mentally locked that one of them has to be lynched in order to settle this. Then let me advance this discussion now.

As Mastin has mentioned before, he himself has stated that this is a rare case where role abilities (particularly investigative abilities) should be used on him or Titan in order to determine their alignments while keeping both of them alive. There are obviously pros and cons to this. But I won't elaborate on that. The main point is, do all of you feel this is the method to take? Or do you want to lynch one of them now to determine their alignment and follow our personal deductions based on the results? State your stance regarding this matter, and we can progress accordingly. This is not to say these are the only two choices: if you feel there is someone we should look towards to, tell us who. There is no diddly-daddling now.

[Clyton]

Clyton, I don't think anyone believes at this point that Titan is scum. I am not even sure how Titan figures into FT's question about whether anyone still thinks MastinSSK is scum. Nobody has claimed that it was a dichotomy of one scum among {Titan, MastinSSK}. One's townflip has absolutely no bearing on the other. I am not even sure why you bothered mentioning that you won't vote Titan. No one is asking you to nor is a Titan lynch even on the table. Also, why respond to a question of "Mastin is scum" with "I will vote neither Titan nor Mastin." It is also us and MastinSSK who are both scumreading each other now with Titan seemingly still solidifying their reads. Nobody is mentally locked into an idea that one of them ought to be lynched. Investigative abilities can be used on any player in the game. It would be

absurd

to use them on Titan as they quite obviously town. There is also no reason to specifically keep both of Mastin or Titan alive over any other player in the game. I don't want to lynch "

one of them.

" Where are you even getting this? I want to lynch Mastin. On the off-chance he flips town, Titan is still obvtown. But FT and I are both quite certain that he won't.

~ F-16

I am merely restating some context of my thinking process thus far, regardless if it does not apply to the current thought process of the general population. Is it merely your habit for you to over-analyze every single statement? I ask because it is only fair that I ask; this is such the nature of my posting habit I am telling you: my posts are along the lines of storytell, debriefing, etc. And I ask because you still have some interest in figuring me out, something that I will not mind continuing the side discussion if you believe it will benefit you.

And while I can completely deconstruct your post and list out all my arguments, clarify my words and make hypotheses based on that, I am sure it will be such a chore and a bore to those unfortunate to read it.

Onto the dilemma at hand, you want to lynch Mastin, and that is fair enough. I will definitely rethink this action and see if it is worth the vote. I will also have to hear Mastin's defense. Of course, while you are scumreading Mastin, it is appropriate that you should be scumread too by me. Why do you delay your vote on Mastin? Are you not entirely convinced he is scum? Is there still some matters you want to figure out?

[Clyton]

Also, I don't know what you are trying to get at with me, but if you read my earlier post as ISO, then I would understand why you typed such things into your post. I am sure a capable player such as yourself would have immediately known I am chainlinking posts with my previous posts in the game to ensure my thought process is continuous and consistent, and that everyone else may see that.

[Clyton]

I definitely think having you explain your stances will help me get a read on you while letting me see where you are coming from. I think we've been viewing the game very differently. I think Mastin is scum and so want him lynched. I don't see the connection between him and Titan. They've argued just like any other players in the game. While I agree that their debate was intense, it was also short lived and there have been several other points of discussion in the thread. I am not seeing Mastin and Titan as a package deal or alternative choices because they've had an argument. Is it usual from your past games for players to choose between two sides of a major debate and have it as a highlight of a day? Also, can you explain why us scumreading Mastin would cause you to scumread us? This also ties into me wondering if you usually scumread both sides in a debate or if that's how you play the game.

I didn't initially vote because I was not certain enough that that was the way we want to go. I am usually slow to vote. When FT checked the thread, he emphatically agreed that Mastin was scum and placed a vote. I've been happy with our vote since. I am as convinced as I can be at this point. I am rarely this confident in my reads.

~ F-16

Hmmm, perhaps scumreadding isn't the right term when I said it to you, but I will explain to all my general approach.

You are all individual people (even Hydras). I don't care of your alignment. I analyze your posts, make inferences and deductions, and spark discussion for clarification and progress. Who am I to say "this person is Town or Scum?" Even the system will not convince me. I am sure we all have came across roles with different sanities and factions consisting of multiple alignments. Nothing is 100% confirmed to me until adequate information is revealed upon death or the end of the game. I make decisions based on the most probable choice for scum to show up or for the good of the whole.

It happens in past games in regards to your questions, but that is not to say it marks the final point of decision for the day to end. I tend to look elsewhere for now, but should the overall majority decide a need to settle the matter, then I will gladly comply.

To be fair, some people have expressed a scumread on you. Thus, this ties in to what the people are thinking now, and is something that I should consider, even when I do not want to go into that area at the moment.

If you want some help in getting a read out of me, here's a suggestion: do not ISO any of my posts. From past experience, people give an inaccurate read of me because they are focusing on my content out of context and are therefore, looking at the wrong areas or misinterpreting my content.

[Clyton]

I mean, if you play at a site where people don't generally read others based on the tone of their posts, I can sort of understand why are still considering the possibility of Titan being scum. I've been told by Nacho once that he was playing with Tammy in an offsite game and she garnered loads of suspicion because the MTGS players weren't reading her based on her genuineness which is usually what most established players on mafiascum look for. But that's all secondhand, will wait for Nacho to comment on that. But if your scumhunting differs from most others, you may have different reads from people who play more here and perhaps strengths in different areas.

The site you linked had people almost random-voting D1 and didn't really have lots of good reasons for voting D2. Yet, here you are very thorough in meticulous in your analysis. Where did you pick up the skill to post that way and was there any in-between site you played at? How do you go from playing on a site with a lack of analysis to the extreme detail that you went into earlier?

~ F-16

~ F-16

I am not particular fond of going through tonal analysis. I see posts through logic, not emotions. Perhaps this is why some of you are not accurately getting good reads from me, because you must adapt. I am an entirely different player here compared to what you would typically find at this site. If you post with emotions, and look for emotions in other people's posts (like what Mastin did), then it won't work on me. You must rid yourself of terms like "genuineness" and "feelings" when confronting me if we are to cooperate effectively for the same goals. But don't misunderstand, people at the off-site I played at are very vocal and emotional. This is merely a case of me being different.

There is no in-between site I played at. And while you are looking at a particular game, it does not contain everything of the Mafia playerbase of that site. There are some veterans there that are at a skill level around myself and can easily blend in to be a skilled player with the skilled players of this site. But generally, I have different outlooks then what regular Mafia players would normally have.

[Clyton]

This game contains 4 players that are mafia, and 13 players that are town.

has anybody mentioned this to mastin yet

No. In fact, I'm pretty sure no one has mentioned that fact at all, correct me if I'm wrong. I assumed people read the first set of mod posts and just took mental note of it.

Based on Mastin's random softclaim, it is clear that this is not the case he claims it to be. His role has nothing to do with the revelation of 4 mafias/13 towns. Everyone should have known that from the beginning of the game regardless of their role! Ergo, he most likely be trying to gain some sense of credibility and usefulness attached to his role in the face of the Town.

/Vote: MastinSSK

You say that you will not defend yourself because it is something that it is easy to fight off but you choose not to. However, you also make an effort to keep up with a realistic nonsense, so it is better to post the truth than fake it. If this is truly your playstyle, then you have either really meant what you said about the 4 mafias/13 towns or you made a mistake. I cannot take what you said lightly as a mistake; I personally think you meant it as you claimed about your playstyle. Therefore, I ask that you honor your 2nd detail of posting the truth over not defending yourself. Surely if it is easy to fight off, then you will have something to say to counter my suspicions.

[Clyton]

Excuse the / in front of the vote.

[Clyton]

Ergo, he most likely be trying to gain some sense of credibility and usefulness attached to his role in the face of the Town

I don't understand,
This should be explained,
What possible "credibility"
Was there to be gained?

Unless ye be claiming
That Jeanne didn't know
It was public knowledge
And she be putting on a show?

The more likely scenario
Is Jeanne really was unaware
Her divine revelations,
Led her astray a bit there

Credibility as in
Figuring out the numbers per team
But ye be forgetting
The fact made in the very beginning

A bunch of speculation
Although it is a valid possibility
Such as I have thought
But my vote goes anyways without any naught

Meanwhile orcinus is not so subtle
Throwing around votes that are futile
With no reasons supplied
I doubt ye be getting a wagon applied

But for ye first hand mate
I got thy reason for my vote
orcinus is not so original
To react in such a manner is dispicable

[Clyton]

Orcinus, talk. Even if your modus as a vote against me is to talk, I already did my side of the bargain. Now, I personally invite you into my realm. I give you permission; speak to me.

[Clyton]

I am extremely lost in this game, and I blame the overabundance of meta-references that I don't understand/have time to go research. I feel like I am playing a game with a gazillion inside jokes.

Someone talk to me.

Strongly feel like this post comes from scum.

VOTE: just sheep us

Valid point.

I think if I were completely left to my own devices I'd have mastin as more than likely scum.

What is

with

people reading my play as scum, yet concluding town from reputation, others, and whatnot? I don't see it. Like. Normally. I see it. If I'm not obvtown, I know I'm not obvtown and call tell. But...well. I'm obvtown.

Carbon Fiber (2): [/color]

MastinSSK

, Rancid Broderick Drake, Mac

Oh, shit.

So

that's

how it works. (And here I was hoping we could pull a fake-hammer gambit.)

It's only about a third of our claim (eh, more like 2/5ths), but I might as well fullclaim that aspect of our role. I'm not going to randomly fullclaim everything, but part of our role dictates that our vote doesn't count when on the lead wagon until there are nine or less players alive,

akin to Saki being hated while there's more than five alive.

So basically, we can vote, but our vote won't count towards the lynch of a player (since lynching requires a player to BE the lead wagon) until 9 players. Thus, why I believe that we have four scum, since that's the cutoff point.

I'm a bit confused, so I would like you to clarify for me. Who is Saki? And how did you conclude 4 scum players based on your voting restriction again?

[Clyton]

OK nevermind, I see the scenario. Makes sense, otherwise, if you can't be on the leading wagon when it is 9 players, it would be a draw assuming 4 scum votes one player and the other 4 (excluding Mastin) vote another player.

[/b]/Unvote[/b]

[Clyton]

/Unvote

[Clyton]

Then it leads me to this MastinSSK. Did you not trust what Yulia Jue posted in her first set of posts? Are you saying she's one of those mods who deliberately puts a red herring? Obviously I wouldn't know because this is the first game I'm playing with her as the mod, so I would like some useful background information.

[Clyton]

Saki was a player in tales of vesperia. He was hated until there were 5 players left, then he became loved.

Hated - takes one less to lupynch, loved takes one more.

Noted and appreciate the help.

I will be reading the Vesperia game to see how Yulia Jue is thinking in the making of the roles, and if what she posts (as the mod) is consistent with what happened in the game. I want full clarity before something unexpected pops up just because of the possibility that what Yulia Jue posted turns out not to be true.

[Clyton]

-_- I can't believe you didn't read that Mastin. Made me thought you were actually serious and wanted to try to gain something out of that.

[Clyton]

His role has nothing to do with the revelation of 4 mafias/13 towns. Everyone should have known that from the beginning of the game regardless of their role! Ergo, he most likely be trying to gain some sense of credibility and usefulness attached to his role in the face of the Town

1) why couldn't mastin be town who has a role that suggests 4 scum?
2) did everyone know that? i mean sure we all "know" it from the OP but that doesn't mean mastin necessarily read it
3) this seems forced

i'm terribly sorry that i haven't impressed you mac is there anything i could possibly do to correct my sin

1. Due to the exchange that has happened after your caught up post, I strongly believe Mastin is Town now. Of course, there is a very slim possibility he might be scum (I think I can still see how scum would end up with that voting restriction/then again, this is simply by meta's rationale), but I will believe that Mastin is Town.
2. Resolved.
3. I'm not sure how you see this is forced. If you read my posts in the game (and hopefully not in ISO like CF), then anyone can tell this is not forced, but should be expected of me the moment Mastin made such a post.

[Clyton]

I will be on V/LA until most likely Tuesday night? I will catch up by then.

[Clyton]

I can reply to this now however.

Based on Mastin's random softclaim, it is clear that this is not the case he claims it to be. His role has nothing to do with the revelation of 4 mafias/13 towns. Everyone should have known that from the beginning of the game regardless of their role! Ergo, he most likely be trying to gain some sense of credibility and usefulness attached to his role in the face of the Town.

/Vote: MastinSSK

I don't understand the point you're even trying to make here.

-b

That matter is resolved, so there is no need for you to understand because of its irrelevancy. But if you really want to know, just let me know and I'll clarify my thought process for that post.

[Clyton]

Sure thing.

My assumption that Mastin (or everyone actually) had read what Yulia Jue posted in the beginning (confirmed 4 scum/13 town). Based on what Mastin did about softclaiming about a particular aspect of his role that confirms that exact number, it lead me to a couple of scenarios.

1. He intentionally claimed this particular aspect to gain favor in other people's eyes. "Oh, Mastin has a role that figures out for certainty there is 4 scum/13 town? He must have an important role that can benefit the Town!"

However, this assumes that Mastin read Yulia Jue's post about this confirmed fact, and said this hoping that the other people in this thread haven't read that particular confirmed fact. Therefore, if the people who haven't read agreed with Mastin, then that is more of saying Mastin has gained credibility in their eyes (in terms of usefulness to the Town); even if it is not much, knowing the exact number of each alignment is useful (personally to me, it helped me in multiple games in the off-site).

2. He actually did not read it, which turned out to be the case.

But I admit this is a mistake for me. I was too hasty to jump in. CF, you can tell from your interactions/analysis of me, and I did stated it in this game, that as of the moment, I am looking for openings to jump on and attack. I felt there was not a lot of progress going on because many people here are quite conservative. The reads I'm getting, although gives me a sense of direction of what to act upon, conflicts with other people's reads. We are like leaders, struggling to control the game, and with our own personalized read list, we are only bickering among ourselves trying to convince one another "this guy's town" or "this guy's scum."

As of the moment, aside from my limited access, I am also reading through the Vesperia game. My stance is this at the moment: we lynch the player that is the most probable scum at the moment, and focus on the night gathering information and enacting our abilities. I feel the majority here is trying to find someone who is 100% sure of being town or scum. But my rationale is different: it is pointless to find a 100% proof of someone's alignment because you will never know it until they are dead. Everyone before that is pure speculation. It is better to act upon even a 70% likeness of someone's alignment, but even then, I feel people are actually waiting to act upon "this guy's 99% scum/town."

[Clyton]

What are the reads that you are getting that conflicts with other people's reads? Have your reads changed since the last time you posted them?

~ F-16

Yes, some has shifted around. I will post an updated version after finding more info from the Vesperia game on specific players. Then, I will even do more work, and compare my read lists to all the other most updated reads said upon this game thus far. Don't expect this to come so soon however lol. This is quite a lot of work I am doing in order to present to all of you an update regarding the "reading game" of this game.

[Clyton]

What the hell man. I said I was gonna be V/LA till Tuesday night and 10 pages already passed with a bunch of shit. CF, I will promptly hold off my updated reads list; now is not the time to do so. I rather wait till Day 2 when this clusterfuck is cleared up.

At the moment, I will read the recent 10 pages, and will get back to you all. However, I am convinced with RBD's argument regarding AngryPigedon and MastinSSK. MastinSSK also provided some background information regarding AP's meta, which I will take it for his word; my trust in him is because my read on him (Mastin) is currently leaning towards the stronger town side. Although I do admit this is quite hasty of me, and therefore, my stance is not finalized. I am willing to change just as easily once I get a better grasp of the last 10 pages.

Vote: AngryPidgeon

@RG, yes it is. I am trying to bring across a point using a different impersonation lol

[Clyton]

Here are some info I wanna point out from MY PERSPECTIVE!

Just Sheep Us is adamant about protecting AP. Although he brings out a legitimate argument regarding a past game's mistake, it lost credibility in my eyes simply based on how AP introduced himself into the game. After analyzing background information regarding AP's meta, I concluded that it is not typical of a town-AP. I am willing to take the chance to lynch AP. Meanwhile, based on the conversations Just Sheep Us had with the people accusing him, I'm getting a scumread from him.

Why AP over Fox? I rather deal with a duo threat than a singular threat. Aside from that, I agree with RBD in post 1217; if AP flips scum, Fox should go the next day. If RBD does gladiate with Just Sheep Us the next day, I have a hard time being convinced to vote RBD over Just Sheep Us based on recent interactions. Unless the latter can bring a convincing argument, then I will vote for him. Besides, I have RBD leaning town, and I rather take the most probable chance of lynching a scum by lynching someone that is actually being read as scum by me rather than lynching someone being read as town as me; it's logical.

[Clyton]

Correction: Just Sheep Us, AP, and Fox/Hound are all defending one another in one form or another. My vote stands, because I am not too entirely convinced with Fox and Hound. Although their defenses, their reasoning for their arguments, and their accusations are all wavering and breaking apart, I do not want to foolishly rush in to lynch them if their directions are misguided. I rather use AP's death as proof of Fox and Hound's alignment; this is something I am more comfortable with. But if the overall majority of the people here decides to lynch Fox and Hound, then so be it. I do not mind at all, but my suspicions on AP and Just Sheep Us stands firmer than the suspicion put on Fox and Hound.

[Clyton]

Like bravo dude if you're scum your posts are so methodical and organized hardly ever see scum doing this anymore

Is this directed at me? I chuckled in response honestly. In fact, not saying anything regarding this game, but I don't know how the hell you can think a scum would go towards this approach brah

[Clyton]

Correction: Just Sheep Us, AP, and Fox/Hound are all defending one another in one form or another. My vote stands, because I am not too entirely convinced with Fox and Hound. Although their defenses, their reasoning for their arguments, and their accusations are all wavering and breaking apart, I do not want to foolishly rush in to lynch them if their directions are misguided. I rather use AP's death as proof of Fox and Hound's alignment; this is something I am more comfortable with. But if the overall majority of the people here decides to lynch Fox and Hound, then so be it. I do not mind at all, but my suspicions on AP and Just Sheep Us stands firmer than the suspicion put on Fox and Hound.

^ Ya this post.

I havent at all and certainly at the time had not defended sheep us. I believe I was talking about BRO's read on me being bafflingly bad that the time, so this post feels like Clyton is...Im trying to recall that tidbit Mollie said once. About how townies construe things to be consistent with that

they

want to see. Scum do this to make things fit what they want

others

to see. Kinda random this reminded me of that, but I thought it was an interesting point when she made it. Basically, these reads lightly town to me. It looks like he is proud about his vote and he sorta seems to be in his own world here toa degree. By that I mean, it doesn't look manipulative, rather opinionated and excited about that.

So ok I just talked myself into putting clyton in the maybe-town pile \o/

Although my posts are somewhat opinionated, it does not mean I am prideful about such matters. Why do I open myself to be corrected then? Why do I wish to engage other people in thoughtful dialogue? Is it not natural for any town member to engage others in dialogues so that they can understand one another when their perspective contains no sure-tell of who's part of which alignment?

Also, while it is a great skill for scum to be manipulative, I disagree with towns wanting to see results they want to see. Unlike the mafia as a collective team, the townie can only make things happen by him/herself. It will be a great jump to assume things can go according to what you want. Ideally, a town should analyze the options and choose the most favorable one while making the most out of dire situations.

I will be taking a look back at the recent updates since my last post. But, I will declare V/LA again at least until Saturday hopefully. I have two exams and one due essay coming up tomorrow, and once I finish those, I'll be done my school year aka more time to spend here!

[Clyton]

@FoxyHound

I'll do so once I'm done my exams today (I gave out a notice bro)

[Clyton]

My apologies to everyone. I will get back into it since I was pre-occupied with something IRL.

[Clyton]

I'll be posting my thoughts soon. But first, I need information. What are the characteristics of a Cabd game? If I know, I can adjust my approach.

[Clyton]

I will admit going through 79 pages to re-analyze everything is very troublesome, tiresome and tedious.

/Unvote

@AP: earlier you said that Mastin is clearly Town, but due to recent developments, you are inclined to believe she is scum based on her behavior and actions towards you. Let me ask: is she your strongest scumread and therefore, you are voting her based on that? (Also, is this scum level stronger than she is town level?) Or do you just want to lynch her because she is the "weakest link" to the town and that there is no other viable scummy options at the moment?

[Clyton]

I dont get what you are claiming really. You are immune to things other than night kills....but not lynches. So you are basically bulletproof. Whoop-de-doo? Now you ARE me from GoC mafia, cause this is the hail mary Id be going for.

It is her method to save herself from the lynch.

I was never intending to vote Mastin anyways; I still saw her as a town throughout the argument between you and her. But after looking over your recent defenses, I am inclined that you are not as scummy as I thought, hence I retracted my vote.

But therein lies a problem. The deadline is looming and we have no other player that we can build a strong wagon on, correct me if I'm wrong.

[Clyton]

Also Mastin, while I do agree with your arguments and reasoning for lynching AP (my original vote on him was because of that), there were some flaws related to your bias. Although you did retract one of them (not attempting to understand him because you assume all of them are impossible to understand), I have a question for you. You say AP acts differently in a way that you never see him do. Having seen the scum him, I can also infer that he is acting different from his scum self. Is this your perspective, or how he acts is still more aligned to his scum self than his town self?

[Clyton]

I think I did mention it before that I was admittedly hasty. I rather have the 100 pages before deciding on a vote than a reckless vote. Looking back, I have suspicions on Mastin's approach which I have overlooked in my voting decision; some reasons are already said by AP. Likewise, I was already confident in Mastin being town, so I do not understand AP's decision to vote for her just because of her distractions coming from her approach. Is it rather hard to just avoid her and focus on your other reads, or to passively defend against an accusation?

In other words, I see both of you in the wrong and in the right, and in my perspective where I am seeing either side that is gaining no bearings on the other, it would be best to focus elsewhere.

[Clyton]

Hey Mastin, since you are well-versed in Cabd games, why don't you have the honor of telling me what makes a game a Cabd game? Is it the roles? Is it only a red herring aspect?

Also, putting in my two cents, unless we have dedicated people who can read through all this content and discern which is important/relevant and which is not, we will probably never be able to formulate a wagon on someone else. The Mastin/AP war has caused too much damage in drowning out other content, and with the apparent busyness creeping up on other people here in this game, I fear we may end up with a no lynch.

[Clyton]

In regards to Mastin's role and the nature of roleclaiming, we will never know if that role is legitimate to the person unless he/she is dead and the role is revealed to us officially. However, I have strong assumptions that Tammy is town if we analyze the role. It does not help the mafia team at all with the voting restriction. Yes, there is a possibility that the role can be scum-aligned, but I would most likely believe it would be better put on a team of 5, not 4; otherwise, the balance will be off and the mafia will be at a disadvantage. The reason of there being 4 mafia members means that they have top-tier PRs.

As a result of this hypothesis, I was confused as to why CF would even consider the Mastin/AP war as a scum theater, even a bit skeptical of them.

@Just Sheep Us: It is admirable for you to pursue a RBD wagon for valid reasons. However, I want to question your approach. Even if RBD has a 95% chance of flipping scum and Mastin a 90% chance, the chances of getting a wagon on RBD is lower than getting a wagon on Mastin. Naturally, I would advise you to vote for Mastin should I agree with your arguments. Do you believe you can start a wagon for RBD?

Never mind that, I just saw that you are confident in your Mastin vote. But let me clarify what happened very early on the day. RBD was not a rapid dog compared to Mastin attacking Titan. I would say Mastin's attack on Titan was two or threefold over what RBD amounted in regards to Titan. Meanwhile, in the more recent day phase, RBD's attacks on certain people was just as of an equal amount to Mastin's attacks on certain people. I can firmly say that RBD was not relentlessly attacking as you would have thought to believe. But I do see your point: RBD was supporting Mastin in her pushes. Now, whether I can agree with you, that's hard to say.

I want your honest opinion in order to resolve my conflicting views with you. You have been scumreading Mastin. Have you ever townread her as well and see which is the more probable choice?

[Clyton]

@RG

What does Tammy have to do with Mastin's roleclaim?

That was a mistake; I meant to put Mastin.

[Clyton]

Updated Reads List:

Strong Town

Titan
Mac

Town

Kagura
Stalin
RBD
RG
orcinus

The In-Betweens

Mastin
The Fox and the Hound
AP
Just Sheep Us

Scum

Carbon Fiber

Unknown due to lack of recent activity

Lord Business
PeregrineV
Cupcake Panda
Yukari

Notes:
1. The reads are in order based on strength of alignment aka the people at the top are more likely to be that particular alignment they are under in.
1a. The order for the in-betweens and unknown tier is the likelihood of being town from top to bottom.
2. This reads list is based on having all players having been townread and scumread, with their certain placement on this list based on which read is more probable to be true.

I do hope point 2 in particular can give you the understanding for this reads list. If you want me to give a detailed analysis on a specific player, ask away and I will post the info.

[Clyton]

When you say based on having been townread and scumread, does that mean you've read their posts from the pov that they are town and again from the pov that they are scum?

Yes, exactly as you say. I also read their posts without any thinking bias of their alignment (nullread). This will explain some discrepancy where more probable town members in other people's eyes are lower down the list and vice versa for scum members being a bit higher up on the list.

[Clyton]

Okay, I wasn't really sure when to come out with this but I am going to post it now:

IMPORTANT ANNOUNCEMENT

We are counterclaiming Rancid Broderick Drake as a miller.

Here is our full role claim:

1) Our character name is Luke from Tales of the Abyss.

2) We are a town replica.

3) We return as "replica" to all cops.

4) We also have an ability to set up neighborhoods. Each day, we send the name of a mothership title (like Tales of the Abyss) to Cabd and he sets up a neighborhood for all the people in that title. For instance, we sent him "Tales of the Abyss" today and he set up a neighborhood for us, BRO-Desp, Nacho-Bork, and GIF. (This is the reason why I haven't interacted with Nacho in thread and I figured ffery/others would pick up on it). Based on the interactions in the neighborhood, I am massively confident that BRO and Desp are town.

-- Moving on, reasons for why we are counterclaiming now as opposed to earlier.

I honestly wasn't sure whether RBD were gambiting with their miller claim or were serious. It only slowly started to sink in at some point that they were serious about it. I was also certain enough about Mastin being scum that I was fine with a Mastin lynch followed by RBD locking themselves into a gladiate with BRO-Desp and then counterclaiming them. As it turns out, we seem to be headed toward a mislynch one way or another. I am not really sure at what point I realized that RBD were serious about their claim and re-read our role realized we had the same role. But on an initial read, I sort of skimmed through and didn't really register that we were a miller.

We claimed in the neighborhood. Only BRO-Desp were online and responded to it.

So, basically

RBD is scum

. We are counterclaiming their role. This is not a lolgambit. I don't do those. Whether or not you believe this was the optimal time to claim is always going to be debatable. I am happy to answer questions but this is going to be a 1v1 with us and RBD.

I expect other questions like why we were tunneling Mastin as opposed to RBD: I was sure he was scum. Initially we thought RBD were gambiting so didn't pay attention. Later, they claimed they would gladiate BRO-Desp so were biding our time hoping to get another scum read lynched while they lock themselves into a gladiate with an outside player (us) counterclaiming them assuring their lynch. Any other questions, we'll answer as we see them.

VOTE: Rancid Broderick Drake

Elaborate on "replica." What does that exactly mean you are a town replica?

[Clyton]

Vote: CarbonFiber

I am being very cautious regarding CF and RBD and their miller claims. They could augment each other, and there is a chance of being two millers in the game. I do not see the push for an absolute certainty of one miller in this game, and a majority of people will argue with me on that regard. It is no surprise CF is looking at this game differently, and I still have some small reasons that he can be town, although I listed him as scum on my reads list and I will follow my suspicions in hopes that it will be a scum in the end that will be lynched.

While I do not fully see the warrant to lynch PeregrineV, it is a risky matter cause he does not have a lot of scumtell, but as someone mentioned, a lack of towntell that brings an aura of suspicion around him. I will avoid pursuing this lynch as a result.

p-edit: Look, it's a fact we all have divided approaches and conflicted views. I am following my own path. HOWEVER, if the deadline looms near and we are not able to get a lynch on the leading wagon, I will willingly join that wagon to ensure the lynch goes off. Even if this is not the most optimal path to take from my perspective, it is still in the end, the majority's view of our lynch for today. I will be on tomorrow night to see if anything changes and I can adjust accordingly.

AKA Mastin, have some trust in me that I will be there in your's or PV's lynch SHOULD THAT COME as a result of the majority.

[Clyton]

Also, RBD is HATED which means we don't want them around in LYLO. Why is everyone hardcore defending a scummy player that should be policy lynched for being hated that just got counterclaimed as a miller?

~ F-16

F-16, look past the role. Look at the play. And look at other zmuffin town and scum games. You know, that meta stuff you do. Tell me how their play looks like their scumgames. Convince me. I don't think you can, but you absolutely won't convince me on the basis of you both being millers.

Why are you this obsessed about lynching the person you're counterclaiming in a fucking CABD game?

Nothing that Muffin has posted in the thread is a genuine effort to solve the game. His primary purpose in the game is browbeating everyone who scumreads MastinSSK. Him, Mastin, and AngryPidgeon make the most sense as a scumteam.

Muffin as town is actually useful to the game. See Cash Cabd, he was incredibly obvious town there.

Also, why are you against voting a hated claim? They ought to be lynched at some point before LYLO. With them alive, we have one less lynch.

Nati's posts are nothing like his play in NY169 where he was genuinely trying to work with players and solve the game. Like it's that obvious, I don't know what to tell you or how to convince you and I don't know even if I can and I don't know if anyone can. You are not a player that uses reasoning to refine reads. It is more of a "

have you read this player correctly before

" type with you. I explained why Casso was scum or at least not town in NY169. Your response was to say that you believe Mara's and Sakura's townreads over my scumread because they have experience playing with Nacho never mind that the don't have the accuracy that I did.

I made a huge long rant about your play but I decided to delete it. You have more experience with Nati so nothing I say is going to convince you. So, I guess I'll wait for Nacho to come and knock sense into you because whether or not you are convinced depends more on who is making the argument as opposed to whether they make a persuasive case. So, yeah, I am not going to bother.

~ F-16

But CF, let me bother with you then. You know we are on good terms, and I am willing to hear you out, despite our views of each other not in the so favorable town light. Perhaps I am still in the need of convincing and a "100% sure" preparation, just like how we both mentioned that particular attribute to our voting decisions.

Your rationale is that we lynch RBD as a policy lynch purely on the fact he is hated and it will put town at a disadvantage. Are you the kind of guy who would be willing to sacrifice a probable town member in order to avoid this from happening? Even if you gave up on convincing others, still convince me: is this truly your view? Or is it merely a way of getting out from your predicament and attacking a negative trait of another player to force a lynch of them?

See, I do not understand why you will not believe. You believe RBD's role contains a hated attribute, no doubt. Yet you don't believe he's a miller? A dual miller is just as likely in a "Cabd game", and I am sure from your words (or someone else's) that the complexity Cabd brings to all the roles in this game would be able to contain the complexity of two milers.

[Clyton]

Clyton, you are confusing two alternate scenarios:

1) The most likely one: RBD is scum - lynch him.

2) The much less likely one: RBD is a hater town miller. Hater claims ought to be lynched because they give town one less lynch if they are alive anyways.

~ F-16

1. Except you forgot I have my own personal views that RBD is town. My vote is not on him for a reason.

2. This point in particular makes me view you as "grasping straws". It is a debate whether you care about your survival or not, because I know if you were to be town in the end, you would enact an action that would be best for the town (getting rid of the hater before LYLO). I can make an argument that we can save RBD for later and lynch a more probable scum. Except, this more probable scum to me is you, and my rationale for voting against you will most likely fall deaf onto your ears and to the ones that supports your survival for this day.

By nature of me accepting the existence of two millers in the game, I see your CC as illogical. You were clearly focusing on the miller aspect earlier; now, you are focusing on the hated aspect of RBD, something you can confront everyone with without the need for roleclaiming.

[Clyton]

In short, spill out the beans from your own honorable mouth. Tell me bluntly your approach once again. I will townread your next following post as of right now: do you truly believe RBD is the right approach for the benefit of the town?

[Clyton]

Clyton, you are confusing two alternate scenarios:

1) The most likely one: RBD is scum - lynch him.

2) The much less likely one: RBD is a hater town miller. Hater claims ought to be lynched because they give town one less lynch if they are alive anyways.

~ F-16

1. Except you forgot I have my own personal views that RBD is town. My vote is not on him for a reason.

2. This point in particular makes me view you as "grasping straws". It is a debate whether you care about your survival or not, because I know if you were to be town in the end, you would enact an action that would be best for the town (getting rid of the hater before LYLO). I can make an argument that we can save RBD for later and lynch a more probable scum. Except, this more probable scum to me is you, and my rationale for voting against you will most likely fall deaf onto your ears and to the ones that supports your survival for this day.

By nature of me accepting the existence of two millers in the game, I see your CC as illogical. You were clearly focusing on the miller aspect earlier; now, you are focusing on the hated aspect of RBD, something you can confront everyone with without the need for roleclaiming.

Yuo are saying he's wrong. Fine.

Now you need to convince us of Carbon's scum motivation in counterclaiming, backing it up, and pushing for Rancid's lynch.

Because you are not just arguing with Carbon, you are voting him.

I am not saying he's wrong; I see some merit in his approach. I DISAGREE with his approach.

Whether my rationale convinces you and others or not, it would not matter for my vote was already declared based on my rationale.

My rationale follows that CF was counterclaiming the miller aspect of RBD's role with the premise that only one miller exists. With this support, CF can lead a push for RBD's lynch. Many people here has pointed out the possibility of two miller roles (cause lolCabd), so CF's supporting argument was with the intent of manipulating the masses to ensure RBD's lynch. Now he targets the hated aspect of RBD. We can clearly see the disadvantage town could end up in should RBD live till LYLO. I see it as an easy way out of his predicament while getting rid of a town member who can be easily lynched by nature of their role.

[Clyton]

This is truly a gambit from CF, because there will be people like me who will throw my kind of argument as a result of scumreading.

[Clyton]

Also PV, I have no intentions of convincing anyone (at this early juncture anyways). I am following my own views. Should a majority be convinced of a different view they are willing to pursue, then I will follow them near the hammer vote to ensure a lynch happens. Not only that, but everything I said in response was already mentioned by my earlier posts.

[Clyton]

The only way I see this being a gambit from CF is if this was cooked up by the scum team, but his play of if they don't flip scum lynch/vig me tomorrow thing feels pretty real. :/

Oh you don't need to mention that to me.

@CF: Let's assume RBD and you are truly town. A lynch on RBD goes off successfully and he flips town. As a response, you think throwing down your own life as a result of your failure will be satisfactory for the town? It will erase the guilt you have given yourself? Goddamn think about the pivotal role you can play and never say such a thing; anyone can still be an asset after such a mistake as that. Your demise on the following day will only happen if a majority sees you as scum due to whatever factors; let that statement speak for your own demise, not because you will willingly be lynched/vig'd.

If you truly live to see beyond the light of this day, I want to give you a specific neighbourhood to construct. Let that be your redemption (in my eyes).

[Clyton]

I wasn't actually soft-claiming with the "we're not getting lynched." I was looking forward to playing in a Cabd game for a while and it came when I was relatively freer irl so I was going to give it everything I've got, be active and not fall behind. It is more that I intend to give maximum effort into the game, enough to be easily readable as well.

This...doesn't exactly seem to add up.

Like.

At all.

Especially given your posting about your entrance.

And how roles are largely integrated into play for town players.

I mean, this isn't a tunnel. I can see it as town, who was overeager and didn't think things through, who rushed in, arrogantly, and made a lot of bad calls. I can see that picture, of being forgetful, and of having continued to make bad decisions and bad calls. It's not out of reach.

...But that level of derptown is really, reeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeally stretching things coming from F-16.

After thinking about this particular post, it is true CF has been more off his game lately, and much more than one can expect. This factor also attributed to my placement of him on the scum pile. I would be willing to give him the day to rethink and come back into proper town focus, but I'm also not letting him off easy. Should I continue the lynch, I would be no different than CF trying to policy lynch RBD (ignoring the legitimate scumhunting lynch which I do not see in RBD's town status).

Vote: PeregrineV

CF, will you submit to my demands and construct a neighbourhood I want to be constructed? It will include me, and you can have all the private time reading me in there.

[Clyton]

Paranoia theory:
There is no neighborhood for today.
The claimed neighborhood is entirely made up of scum.
/AP.
(Because this is totally AP's type of theory to make.)

Does this explain CF's avoidance to my requested demands? Even a simple no would suffice.

[Clyton]

Paranoia theory:
There is no neighborhood for today.
The claimed neighborhood is entirely made up of scum.
/AP.
(Because this is totally AP's type of theory to make.)

Does this explain CF's avoidance to my requested demands? Even a simple no would suffice.

Sorry, I forgot to respond. I'll use it in the best way I see fit. I'm considering asking a strong townread to claim their title D2 so that I can activate a neighborhood for everyone in their title (I won't be in it).

~ F-16

Wait so you won't be in any neighbourhood outside of Abyss? I was hoping that you can use your neighbourize ability to include me into the neighbourhood with you and directly investigate me through there via words of discussion, since apparently, you don't have a strong townread on me and assumingly, you want that dealt with.

[Clyton]

I would actually like to be lynched (just because I literally do not want town to win this, which is why I'm stepping back and giving full control of play to Nati because I cannot play to win con)

And then I would like for mastin to be lynched after us just so town is in a really shit position

I have told Nati what he should do if he still cares about winning - it's a cheap tactic (and i don't think it's a rule violation but i told him to check with cabd before he does it), but if you still think we're scum after it happens, you literally have no idea how to scum hunt

If you have any sense you'll wait to see whether he decides to do what I told him to do. I don't care either way, though.

What is this attitude man? You might as well be a true scum even if you flipped town by acting this way. My apologies to how you wanted to be ended.

Vote: Rancid Broderick Drake

First thing first, I will admit it was rather foolish of me to vote for PV with inadequate information and reads. I won't apologize for this vote, but I will make it up for you, assuming you are truly town as the game progresses.

Secondly, I forgot who it was while I was skimming this thread (Mastin or Stalin or maybe both of you), but I won't deny your suspicions on me should be justified. In fact, it should be justified and encouraged. A pivotal role in playing mafia is also making use of the role abilities you have, not just pure information gathering, analysis, hypotheses and deductions. It's true I "appear to be doing good", but of course that is what you say! In my opinion, If I want to actually do some good, I need power to make something happen. Come what may everyone's opinion on this statement, but this is what I feel about the reads on me: honest and reasonable, and should be encouraged from the lot of you.

Yet I feel this is what some people lack. Particularly, I'm eyeing JSU and CF. Multiple times, I have seen me being put as near-scum/scum in their eyes; essentially an accusation. Yet in their accusations, no reasoning was provided at all! How am I suppose to take you guys seriously if you don't provide a reasoning? How am I suppose to understand you? Is it because "he's scum so let's not talk to him for now"? Know this, eventually you will form a proper case against me if your accusations hold. I'll be ready, and if you don't come at me genuinely as town members, then I will know something's up and I will stomp you to the ground, exposing you for who you really are. In no way am I threatening or discouraging your case on me; this is merely a reminder as you ponder over night what to do about your accusations on me. And I will be honest in my defenses; whether that convinces you two of my alignment is all up in the air.

[Clyton]

Also, I will like to notify everyone that I will not be back before the deadline. I'm sure I did not forget anything else I wanted to say, but see ya all next day!

[Clyton]

Yet I feel this is what some people lack. Particularly, I'm eyeing JSU and CF. Multiple times, I have seen me being put as near-scum/scum in their eyes; essentially an accusation. Yet in their accusations, no reasoning was provided at all! How am I suppose to take you guys seriously if you don't provide a reasoning? How am I suppose to understand you? Is it because "he's scum so let's not talk to him for now"? Know this, eventually you will form a proper case against me if your accusations hold. I'll be ready, and if you don't come at me genuinely as town members, then I will know something's up and I will stomp you to the ground, exposing you for who you really are. In no way am I threatening or discouraging your case on me; this is merely a reminder as you ponder over night what to do about your accusations on me. And I will be honest in my defenses; whether that convinces you two of my alignment is all up in the air.

I think you misunderstood my reads. I have 11 strong townreads and 3 scumreads. That's 14 out of the 16 players (besides myself). I am basically null on you and LordB at this point.

Confirm with me cause I think I didn't get the memo. You are able to set up neighbourhoods, but not get into that neighbourhood if your title is not the same as that hood, even if you are the creator?

[Clyton]

I don't know why anyone thinks this is town ATE, it looks like scum ATE to me.

What I view as a scumclaim more than the thing Sheep is hung up on is the way they reacted to CF's miller claim while not being a miller. Look at their posts directly after the claim. From here, they look really really terrible.

@2790: there will probably be a lot considering how many players' reads on each of you are largely based on stances you've both taken.

I don't know if I can really explain this but I'm going to try.

Neither of them are the kind of scum player to just lose it like that. It looks like pissed off town and it has looked like pissed off town for a few calendar days, now. confirmation bias is a thing. They've been reading CF as scum for a while and he trots out a last minute counter claim and it stinks to them.

I've done similar as town. What I didn't do was have a fake claim going at the same time because that's not how I generally play as town. I still misread the players involved and did my utter best to get them lynched.

Anyway, especially zmuffin, this is nothing like his scum game. Nor is it anything like nati's scum game.

I'll be quick because I'm not at my own comp. I'll start with this.

It is true that I am voting RBD despite a strong belief that he is town (from my reads). RBD is clearly a frustrated town who gave up on this game (at least one of the head anyways). The post Mastin quoted was me acknowledging this fact and complying with his wishes respectfully. Of course, this is inherently scummy; why vote for someone you believe is town? It could be scum using this as a ruse to get the wagon going.

My defense follows: contrary to Mastin, I would rather avoid a no lynch. I believe someone in this thread said it best: a lynch will happen no matter how stupid, illogical it is. I believe that we cannot get another wagon to get a lynch; hence, I decided to give up on such a possibility and vote for RBD. I didn't care how people would react to this post because this is something as a mafia game player I would always do. I also believe that if RBD truly does flips town, it will give me better insight regarding JSU and CF.

Speaking of that, I admit I was too quick to judge JSU and CF scumreading me. I thought I was also being put as null rather than just scum. My previous post was not to be hostile. But I now understand your desires towards me, so I am welcome to speak with you two the following day.

[Clyton]

Unvote

I'm at work and can't swap accounts but I'm feeling masochistic enough to force the NL and 1v1 tomorrow. So please count this Cabd.

F-16, if you really think both my scumbuddies hard defend me day one like this, Lol. Lolololol. If you did any research on me at all, you'd know I'm the goddamn king of bussing. Moreover, AP and mastin are both good enough players to know when to hold and when to fold. And were waaaay beyond the point of folding. I really don't give a fuck if you think I'm a um, but to build such a shit case is, like, I have actually no words.

But it is not beyond the point of folding. If they can derail your lynch today and get a lurker lynched, and then kill the best townies or the ones with most accurate reads, mislynch the others with the help of townies with wrong reads, you can maneuver yourself into a much stronger position.

On the other hand, if you get lynched, and Pie, BRO, Desp, and I all have our reads validated, it is going to be SO much harder for Mastin to avoid us all tunneling him then because for one, your scumflip would basically confirm people as town, and you would be down a member.

Also, your most recent read on me seems to be that I am town so I am not sure where you are going with the 1v1.

Nothing here states what will happen if RBD flips town, only the possibilities outside of that. So what if he does flip town? Does that mean my reads on you and JSU are validated and I can tunnel you two?

I feel me and Stalin are caught in this vortex of conflicting sides: people who truly believe RBD is scum and wants him dead, and people who are trying to save RBD because he is town. Heck, I think he's town, but I want him dead for the best of the town later on. I want to avoid a no lynch at all costs.

/Unvote

I'll have some faith in the people I trust. Stalin, what will you do? You clearly don't want to lynch RBD cause you think he's town. Who's the alternative then? I don't see PV being scummy; rather, there is a lack of townreads on him.

[Clyton]

I don't know why anyone thinks this is town ATE, it looks like scum ATE to me.

What I view as a scumclaim more than the thing Sheep is hung up on is the way they reacted to CF's miller claim while not being a miller. Look at their posts directly after the claim. From here, they look really really terrible.

@2790: there will probably be a lot considering how many players' reads on each of you are largely based on stances you've both taken.

I don't know if I can really explain this but I'm going to try.

Neither of them are the kind of scum player to just lose it like that. It looks like pissed off town and it has looked like pissed off town for a few calendar days, now. confirmation bias is a thing. They've been reading CF as scum for a while and he trots out a last minute counter claim and it stinks to them.

I've done similar as town. What I didn't do was have a fake claim going at the same time because that's not how I generally play as town. I still misread the players involved and did my utter best to get them lynched.

Anyway, especially zmuffin, this is nothing like his scum game. Nor is it anything like nati's scum game.

I'll be quick because I'm not at my own comp. I'll start with this.

It is true that I am voting RBD despite a strong belief that he is town (from my reads). RBD is clearly a frustrated town who gave up on this game (at least one of the head anyways). The post Mastin quoted was me acknowledging this fact and complying with his wishes respectfully. Of course, this is inherently scummy; why vote for someone you believe is town? It could be scum using this as a ruse to get the wagon going.

My defense follows: contrary to Mastin, I would rather avoid a no lynch. I believe someone in this thread said it best: a lynch will happen no matter how stupid, illogical it is. I believe that we cannot get another wagon to get a lynch; hence, I decided to give up on such a possibility and vote for RBD. I didn't care how people would react to this post because this is something as a mafia game player I would always do. I also believe that if RBD truly does flips town, it will give me better insight regarding JSU and CF.

Speaking of that, I admit I was too quick to judge JSU and CF scumreading me. I

thought

I was also being put as null rather than just scum. My previous post was not to be hostile. But I now understand your desires towards me, so I am welcome to speak with you two the following day.

Forgot*

[Clyton]

I mean derailing your lynch makes much, much more optimal sense as scum.

I already addressed the whole "why are good players reading me as town" thing. For one, none of me, Pie, BRO, Desp, or Ceph/DV, or Tammy? all of who are good players are reading you as town.

I think Muffin and Mastin are scum together so their mutual townreads don't matter. Other good players may be reading you as town if you tailor your play towards them because they are such a massive threat.

Is this directed at me?

[Clyton]

I posted something in our hydra QT and flipped back to this thread and saw your post, clyton.

What I posted was that If I were playing on my own, I'd probably vote peregrine as a consensus measure with Mac and Kagura, with a full understanding that it's a compromise likely to result in a mislynch.

This is basically an untenable day 1 for me. I could put a vote *somewhere* and feel more useful I guess, but if I'm going to do that - waste our vote - I'd rather just not vote and take the heat for that tomorrow.

RBD have indicated they'll gladiate one of my townreads tomorrow, so even if they survive today, tomorrow looks like another shit game day.

Yes, I agree. A PV is a very easy mislynch opportunity. But I also feel RBD is town, and his supposed 'scum-claim' is out of pure frustration. Likewise, I am still trying to understand JSU and CF, but I'm not going to be hasty to put them as scum for their push.

You know what, you admitted that you will be taking some heat for tomorrow. I am a player who generally avoids such a situation, but this game I will make an exception.

Vote: Rancid Broderick Drake

I'm willing to sacrifice RBD and see if my reads are correct. If he's town, I'm going to look into JSU and CF. If he's truly scum, I will look at Mastin and AP.

[Clyton]

/Unvote

On the other hand, what the hell just happened? I'll be back home in 30 mins to catch up ASAP before the deadline.

[Clyton]

I see. A desperation attempt on me when the deadline is drawing near? I am sorely disappointed.

Catching up now.

[Clyton]

I see. A desperation attempt on me when the deadline is drawing near? I am sorely disappointed.

Catching up now.

this kinda strikes me as an off reaction somehow. Like it's a crack in the emotionless facade.

Oh I'm not hiding it. This is a crack. In these kind of situations, I readjust my approach. I mean, what am I to do against full of people acting on emotion? Logic will not help here unless they regain their senses.

[Clyton]

OK so Nati is fine with claiming

So we're Sword Dancer, Town Battleseeker

Our role is basically a modified gladiator

The modifications are as such

At night we can target someone, at day start we'll be told their age and we'll be gladiating them.

If we battle a beast, it's a normal gladiate; no modifications.
If we battle an adult, and win the duel, we can choose whether or not we want to govern the person we gladiate (and the day ends in a no lynch)
If we battle a child, the duel ends with either our lynch or the child hitting L-2 (the game returns to normal if the child hits L-2)

I was planning on keeping the adult part of our role hidden and battling an adult if we ever hit even numbers - ideally, we'd be demanding nobody else hammer until we're ready for it and looking for a time when we're online with the person we gladiated so we can get post-hammer reactions to decide whether or not to govern them - but I don't really care about making this happen anymore and it's a lot more effort than it's worth probably

Anyway, point here is that orcinus's role is almost the inverse of ours, and I'm conflicted about whether Cabd has included both our roles as town roles. Our role doesn't necessarily conflict with orcinus's so this isn't exactly a counter-claim, I just don't really know what to think about his role. Nati says Cabd trolling, but claim anyway

I feel Cabd made the roles to augment another person's similar roles. I forgot who it was, but your rolecop ability and another person's rolecop ability augmented each other. I think these are intentional. The problem is, it is not truly indicative of alignment, so like you said, it would be both town roles or a town role + scum role.

[Clyton]

once you have one of each, scum and town meta are essentially similarly effective in improving your understanding of a player

at least i think so

for my gladiator i don't really want to put up high-profile people...maybe i'll be boring and put up PV and LB

i dunno

Pedit: i swear to fuck if anybody soft-counterclaims in a cabd game i'll have their head

Pedit: are you done catching up

Almost, multi-tasking at the moment with recent posts and reading the ones I haven't read yet. But from what I gathered, I'm not fully understanding this flashwagon on you. I still need time in that regard.

[Clyton]

I also concur, not a no lynch please.

Update: I'm almost caught up and now gathering my thoughts on my upcoming "confirmation update" post.

[Clyton]

Holy shit with all this emotional clusterfuck going around, I'm just gonna stop and give this game a rest until the next day. I applaud the people who are still sane and going through this according to their win condition.

Vote: orcinus_theoriginal

Orcinus, I don't know if your claim is true or not. I do not even know if it is town-aligned or not. But your intentions were made clear that regardless of who is lynched, you will intervene. Now, I have a request. Choose me as one of the participants, and preferably Mastin as the other. I will personally deal with her and expose her for the emotional rift-raft she is and outline every inconsistency and scumtells I picked up from the previous 30 pages from her (and the entire game anyways) while outlining my personal defense (something I already explained in some of the posts, not sure how some of them miss that but if they are truly town, they avoided it and went on the basis of an inherent scum action).

[Clyton]

Holy shit with all this emotional clusterfuck going around, I'm just gonna stop and give this game a rest until the next day. I applaud the people who are still sane and going through this according to their win condition.

Vote: orcinus_theoriginal

Orcinus, I don't know if your claim is true or not. I do not even know if it is town-aligned or not. But your intentions were made clear that regardless of who is lynched, you will intervene. Now, I have a request. Choose me as one of the participants, and preferably Mastin as the other. I will personally deal with her and expose her for the emotional rift-raft she is and outline every inconsistency and scumtells I picked up from the previous 30 pages from her (and the entire game anyways) while outlining my personal defense (something I already explained in some of the posts, not sure how some of them miss that but if they are truly town, they avoided it and went on the basis of an inherent scum action).

can anyone please make sense of clyton's fucking mastin read for me?

he certainly isn't capable of it

How exactly do you not get my read on Mastin? Spill something out, otherwise, I can't understand your vague statements because you ain't clarifying specific points you want to be looked at.

[Clyton]

I mean, how can I make an argument if you're not gonna put up the damn "topic" you want me to clarify on?

[Clyton]

How exactly do you not get my read on Mastin? Spill something out, otherwise, I can't understand your vague statements because you ain't clarifying specific points you want to be looked at.

i'm not getting your read on mastin because every time you talk about him it's different than the time before.

Well as you know, I was against you and CF for your case against RBD and Mastin. I am sure that you saw my reads in the beginning that I had these two originally as town. I still think RBD is town because of the frustration they showed and the hope they gave up on this game, something that I have saw in past games I played in. Never once did I see a scum turned out from such a scenario.

Mastin I thought I had her correctly read early in the day. The "war" against Titan was evident in a townie vs townie scenario. But then, everything went downhill after she acknowledged that she was acting based on emotions just recently. I see some inconsistencies (which I will later lay out in my legitimate case against her) regarding the first half of this day and this recent development of her.

You noticed did you not? I'm not here hours straight. I come here in "intervals" for the lack of better word, and the recent developments forces me to adjust and analyze everything again.

The reason I wanted orcinus to gladiate me and Mastin is because if it is 1v1, I can purely focus on her and drown out the noise around me (people can't even talk anyways, so that's good). Then I can finally lay out my case.

[Clyton]

I can give you my commentary JSU on the spoiler. Give me a moment to write that down now.

[Clyton]

1st quote: I scumread and townread Mastin and thought of both perspectives. The read I gave at that moment of the post was what I genuinely thought. No confusion there.

2nd quote: Pretty much the same. I did mention that Mastin had an equal chance of being scum and town. I gathered that from the scumread and townread I did on her, which when weighing them, seemed pretty even in significance/importance to the possibility of either alignment.

3rd quote: That was me trying to get clarification regarding Mastin's voting restriciton (not sure why you even quoted that).

4th quote: The townread came ahead of the scumread. I based my rationale on the role and which alignment the role will most likely fall with. Scum had very little chance of having such voting restriction; it's essentially saying that Mastin has to rely on non-wagon votes to manipulate the town in picking off key targets the mafia wants to take out.

5th quote: Self-explanatory based on my post. My suspicion fell on Mastin because of how she came up with the 4 mafia/13 town, something that should've been common knowledge if everyone read it in the beginning, but turned out to be Mastin not reading it at all. However, withheld from that post, you never know if Mastin actually did read it in the beginning and withheld that, using the ruse of not reading the beginning post to get herself out of that suspicion I have on her.

6th quote: I think you can tell from the increasing towniness I found in Mastin based on the posts where the townread got ahead from the scumread up to this 6th quote was the reason I said such a post.

7th quote: Mastin became an in-between. This is due to recent developments, aka you and CF against RBD and Mastin. I considered your side of the case and RBD's/Mastin's side, and I finally did a nullread on Mustin (on my first read, I didn't nullread anyone). Your side of the case has some merit, but so did RBD and Mastin. Hence, I was at a loss in this debate and resorted to putting most of you in in-betweens for the time being so I can gather my thoughts and let this debate pan out even further.

8th quote: I said it in 3286; that's my reasoning at the moment. I may add more as I analyze Mastin's posts in this game thus far.

[Clyton]

Orc, a lurker/feel-good lynch isn't going to give us a lot of information and wierd though Clyton's proposal might sound, I don't think it is a bad idea at all.

I'd really prefer you not put up PV. He is not a lurker. A lot of the observations he has made in the thread are very, very good and I genuinely, strongly believe that he is town. I can't honestly say the same for LordBusiness so I guess he is not a bad choice for putting up if you think he will flip scum. He hasn't posted anything of substance and the last post he made, I had some concerns. Him and Clyton would be good choices to put up.

There is nothing weird CF. In fact, you should take this as a chance. You had a nullread on me did you not? Should the spotlight be on me and Mastin, then you have no worries of outside noises. You can devote all the time you have in analyzing me and determining for yourself if I am truly town or scum.

[Clyton]

1st quote: I scumread and townread Mastin and thought of both perspectives. The read I gave at that moment of the post was what I genuinely thought. No confusion there.

2nd quote: Pretty much the same. I did mention that Mastin had an equal chance of being scum and town. I gathered that from the scumread and townread I did on her, which when weighing them, seemed pretty even in significance/importance to the possibility of either alignment.

3rd quote: That was me trying to get clarification regarding Mastin's voting restriciton (not sure why you even quoted that).

4th quote: The townread came ahead of the scumread. I based my rationale on the role and which alignment the role will most likely fall with. Scum had very little chance of having such voting restriction; it's essentially saying that Mastin has to rely on non-wagon votes to manipulate the town in picking off key targets the mafia wants to take out.

5th quote: Self-explanatory based on my post. My suspicion fell on Mastin because of how she came up with the 4 mafia/13 town, something that should've been common knowledge if everyone read it in the beginning, but turned out to be Mastin not reading it at all. However, withheld from that post, you never know if Mastin actually did read it in the beginning and withheld that, using the ruse of not reading the beginning post to get herself out of that suspicion I have on her.

6th quote: I think you can tell from the increasing towniness I found in Mastin based on the posts where the townread got ahead from the scumread up to this 6th quote was the reason I said such a post.

7th quote: Mastin became an in-between. This is due to recent developments, aka you and CF against RBD and Mastin. I considered your side of the case and RBD's/Mastin's side, and I finally did a nullread on Mustin (on my first read, I didn't nullread anyone). Your side of the case has some merit, but so did RBD and Mastin. Hence, I was at a loss in this debate and resorted to putting most of you in in-betweens for the time being so I can gather my thoughts and let this debate pan out even further.

8th quote: I said it in 3286; that's my reasoning at the moment. I may add more as I analyze Mastin's posts in this game thus far.

thank you for doing this

i don't get you and i don't think i ever will.

That is fine. If you are town, then my advice is that you continue to suspect me due to the fact that I cannot be understood from your perspective. Use the foundation you have built (your trust on CF for instance, and extending to that, his read on me). In this case, do not think from your perspective, but other people perspectives (but mines, because you are not able to understand my perspective).

[Clyton]

I'll have some faith in the people I trust. Stalin, what will you do? You clearly don't want to lynch RBD cause you think he's town. Who's the alternative then? I don't see PV being scummy; rather, there is a lack of townreads on him.

Clyton, where did this trust come from?

This trust came from the fact that we were in similar situations. You were in a dilemma like I was. RBD was town, but I would rather sacrifice him for the sake of avoiding a no lynch. But I didn't find PV (where he was the alternative wagon) to be scummy based on my scum/town/nullread on him (or lack thereof). I was asking you for alternatives.

[Clyton]

I'll have some faith in the people I trust. Stalin, what will you do? You clearly don't want to lynch RBD cause you think he's town. Who's the alternative then? I don't see PV being scummy; rather, there is a lack of townreads on him.

Clyton, where did this trust come from?

This trust came from the fact that we were in similar situations. You were in a dilemma like I was. RBD was town, but I would rather sacrifice him for the sake of avoiding a no lynch. But I didn't find PV (where he was the alternative wagon) to be scummy based on my scum/town/nullread on him (or lack thereof). I was asking you for alternatives.

Perhaps we are different players. I would be willing to make any sacrifice if it adds to ANY PROGRESS for the town. A lynch is such a progress I can willingly take. You however, care about them and wouldn't needlessly sacrifice them (even if it impedes on the progress of the town). Such as in the case that despite RBD being the leading wagon, you decided not to vote for him, and would willingly take the heat for such actions. That is admirable of you, and I can relate to you in that regard.

[Clyton]

@RBD, and any other player who had shown an outburst of emotions, for a lack of better word.

I can see the benefit of emotions in a mafia game; it is a tool and a skill to use. Just like we all have personalities, tactics or specific actions that happens in a mafia game could be something a person do not tolerate based on their personalities.

I thought that when people sign up for the mafia game, it means "no hard feelings" and "whatever happens in the game, stays in the game (regarding emotional feelings and reactions towards one another)". This was something I truly thought everyone had signed up for. Yet here are people reacting personally, and whether this personal reaction is part of their meta, a tactic, or whatever, is something that I have to take into account when analyzing.

Basically, never regret the posts you have put in this game. It is indicative of who you are as a player. Remember that we do not legitimate hate one another, but it is all part of the game.

My philosophy of mafia follows. A player has tools to use to win the game for their team: logic, emotions, and the "system". If you can't make use of your logic, make use of your emotions and show everyone your tones and genuinity. If you are using too much emotions that are making you burn out playing mafia, resort to logic and think rationally and calmly. If all else fails, remember that you still have power that the system has given you: your role abilities. Being at night, it is a time where you can relax and re-organize everything before you venture into the potential clusterfuck of the next day.

That's my advice basically for those who had to resort to posting personal things I hoped I never wanted to see within a game.

NOW, back to the game!

[Clyton]

I'll have some faith in the people I trust. Stalin, what will you do? You clearly don't want to lynch RBD cause you think he's town. Who's the alternative then? I don't see PV being scummy; rather, there is a lack of townreads on him.

Clyton, where did this trust come from?

This trust came from the fact that we were in similar situations. You were in a dilemma like I was. RBD was town, but I would rather sacrifice him for the sake of avoiding a no lynch. But I didn't find PV (where he was the alternative wagon) to be scummy based on my scum/town/nullread on him (or lack thereof). I was asking you for alternatives.

Ok, I can kinda see that.

I haven't been posting logical walls or doing all that much in the way of explaining reads. I don't really feel like my playstyle should inspire trust in a logic-based player this game. Especially one who isn't familiar with me. From feedback, I seem to be enigmatic to players who aren't familiar with me. I hear a lot of "there's no there there" about my day 1 posts sometimes, even from players who do know me.

You forgot I have emotions too? Refer to my out-of-game post in 3307 (this is the only time I will reference a OOG post). Maybe the trust you inspired from me was not from my logical side. Think about that.

[Clyton]

Well, I actually just saw that. But it doesn't sound like what I thought a governor is supposed to do.

It's a modified governor for the lack of a better term. Regardless, orcinus has already defended himself and has already stated what he is going to do regardless of who is getting lynched today.

[Clyton]

Pretty much every time I see Bork post, my paranoia goes away somewhat. But I think Nacho has evolved beyond robotic during NY169. The flashwagon on Sakura and the dismantling of it, etc.

Ffery, do you have any actual scumreads at this point? One thing I wanted to ask about your reads-list is that I am not really sure what you were trying to convey. It seems like you have townreads on everyone.

CF, and any other within that neighbourhood; can you explain paraphrase what happened in the QT with Kagura? What was the argument about?

I will post my other thoughts tomorrow, late here.

[Clyton]

The timing of when he showed up basically.

Alright thank you, I noted that.

Also, I have a Xillia character, so I will be in the neighbourhood with Titan. I would appreciate if a Xillia neighbourhood was set up; totally up to your decision.

[Clyton]

Some quick thoughtful notes:

I think for me, and perhaps some others, we have still yet to fully explore the possibilities of a Cabd game. Aside from the possibility that CF has mentioned (town janitor/scum self-janitor), I noticed that LB has turned up as Kreed, an antagonist on the town side. So not only are roles truly indicative of an alignment, but neither do their characters.

[Clyton]

Some quick thoughtful notes:

I think for me, and perhaps some others, we have still yet to fully explore the possibilities of a Cabd game. Aside from the possibility that CF has mentioned (town janitor/scum self-janitor), I noticed that LB has turned up as Kreed, an antagonist on the town side. So not only are roles truly indicative of an alignment, but neither do their characters.

I meant roles are not indicative of their alignment if that clarifies things easier. AKA I agree with CF's hypothesis.

[Clyton]

Easily could have voted Clyton, btw.

I see. A desperation attempt on me when the deadline is drawing near? I am sorely disappointed.

this kinda strikes me as an off reaction somehow. Like it's a crack in the emotionless facade.

One of the reasons Clyton evolved into a proper scumread.

Oh I'm not hiding it. This is a crack. In these kind of situations, I readjust my approach. I mean, what am I to do against full of people acting on emotion? Logic will not help here unless they regain their senses.

This also doesn't feel right. It feels like he's being called out on having slipped out, and is now working damage control.

If I were to remain logical in such a moment, I could've easily ignored BWS' statement and dismissed it as one of his regular commentaries. Yet I do not understand your attack on me for being honest in regards to being frustrated with the state of the majority near the end of Day 1. I had nothing to gain as scum for stating such thing. Now, are you trying to grasp at straws by using these kind of pitiful reasons?

Especially since this is how your scumread on me evolved. If that post hadn't happened, then this case of yours wouldn't happen. Now tell me what am I to gain as scum?

I feel Cabd made the roles to augment another person's similar roles. I forgot who it was, but your rolecop ability and another person's rolecop ability augmented each other. I think these are intentional. The problem is, it is not truly indicative of alignment, so like you said, it would be both town roles or a town role + scum role.

This also doesn't feel like an attempt to figure things out and analyze the roles.

His orcinus defense also didn't make much sense. All the while, he wasn't panicking, though.

You did not get the memo that I am also trying to make sense of how Cabd works his game and if that has an affect on my outlook of my reads or not.

For example, I did mentioned if roles had an impact on the alignment of a person (which is proven to be debunked). Think from Cabd's position, was it his purpose to put half a rolecop's ability with one person and the other half with the other person and make them both town? Was it his intention for them to work together in order to effectively use the rolecop ability? I'm not sure how this defense (rather a scenario) does not make sense.

I need more solid proof from you and your accusations against me rather than "this doesn't feel."

Holy shit with all this emotional clusterfuck going around, I'm just gonna stop and give this game a rest until the next day. I applaud the people who are still sane and going through this according to their win condition.

Vote: orcinus_theoriginal

Orcinus, I don't know if your claim is true or not. I do not even know if it is town-aligned or not. But your intentions were made clear that regardless of who is lynched, you will intervene. Now, I have a request. Choose me as one of the participants, and preferably Mastin as the other. I will personally deal with her and expose her for the emotional rift-raft she is and outline every inconsistency and scumtells I picked up from the previous 30 pages from her (and the entire game anyways) while outlining my personal defense (something I already explained in some of the posts, not sure how some of them miss that but if they are truly town, they avoided it and went on the basis of an inherent scum action).

And here, he suddenly shows a burst of emotion, and basically does something that isn't logical at all. Defending orc, but then voting him like this, with no (gaaaah) trajectory. The read on me comes out of nowhere, too. Clyton's read on me seems highly, well, desperate, defensive, and quite frankly, omgusy. Because there's nothing that hints this direction at all. The read is essentially one that is highly convenient (given the scumreads on me) and valuable to him (given the lack of stronger scumreads on him).

Based on my prior point, it is not an actual defense of orc, but rather an attempt to analyze the situation at hand. I do hope you are familiar with speculating and deducing one's alignment from information outside of that person. In this case, I was analyzing Cabd's game set-up and see if this has an effect on whether orc being town or not.

My offensive case against you will come later after my set of defensive rebuttals. Writing a defense is so much easier than writing an offense.

i think i'll be putting up PV or LB up, alongside fery

we'll be doing either a lurker lynch or a no lynch

This is also something that looks bad from orc.

[Clyton]

I still think RBD is town because of the frustration they showed and the hope they gave up on this game, something that I have saw in past games I played in. Never once did I see a scum turned out from such a scenario.

And yet my nearly-identical behavior which came before theirs was ignored, not to mention, you'd be ignoring their read on me.

I cannot assume the credibility of anyone's reads, and I ask that others would do the same with mines. Did I not mention before early on this game that no one is confirmed a particular alignment unless they are dead and their alignment is revealed by the mod?

Meanwhile, for your behaviour, I did not genuinely see such nearly-identical behaviour. Maybe it is not identical enough, or I missed it. I ask you refer to me such posts that indicates such behaviour.

But then, everything went downhill after she acknowledged that she was acting based on emotions just recently.

Admitting to emotions from Rancid was a towntell for you, yet you're using it as a scumtell on me.

Refer to my previous point. Refer to the post cause I probably have missed it or skipped it during that past period because it wasn't as apparent to me. The only signs of emotions I saw that was still remembered by me was you against Titan.

The reason I wanted orcinus to gladiate me and Mastin is because if it is 1v1, I can purely focus on her and drown out the noise around me (people can't even talk anyways, so that's good). Then I can finally lay out my case.

Oh, and every player defending me wouldn't be able to voice said defense.

To be fair, you did not have much of a defense during the time I issued such a suggestion to orc. RBD was being attacked alongside you as an accomplice; therefore, he lost credibility in defending you. I probably have missed other people defending you, but I ask you to refer to the people who had defended you late Day 1 and I will probably take back my point depending on your defenders' posts.

JOBS MOTHERFUCKERS DO YOU HAVE THEM?

On the weekend. During the weekday, though, I have college-for-future-job, and, uh...well. I've put so much time into this game that I'm kinda...kinda failing this quarter. (Which should be the final quarter.) So yesbutno.

5th quote: Self-explanatory based on my post. My suspicion fell on Mastin because of how she came up with the 4 mafia/13 town, something that should've been common knowledge if everyone read it in the beginning, but turned out to be Mastin not reading it at all. However, withheld from that post, you never know if Mastin actually did read it in the beginning and withheld that, using the ruse of not reading the beginning post to get herself out of that suspicion I have on her.

This also makes no sense, since basically, there's no scum motive to lie about knowledge. The best I'd get from pulling such a move would be a faked townslip that would be exactly that--faked, and transparently so. Additionally, reading any of my scumgames (or MD theory for that matter) will show that as scum, I hold the philosophy that the truth is the most powerful weapon a scum player possesses. Lying removes it instantly.

I disagree. But that is a battle of philosophy and different playstyles. You are attacking me on a ground where it is not applicable to the game at hand. How am I suppose to rebuttal? Pick your battles fairly, lest this is also not an credible attack against me.

7th quote: Mastin became an in-between. This is due to recent developments, aka you and CF against RBD and Mastin. I considered your side of the case and RBD's/Mastin's side, and I finally did a nullread on Mustin (on my first read, I didn't nullread anyone).

This makes no sense, because it doesn't really follow the debate at all.

Don't say that to me. It was JSU who picked out a post which I replied to. Don't forget JSU has admitted to being clearly incapable of reading me. I don't expect the posts he picked out would have relevancy to the debate back then if he couldn't even understand where I was getting at.

8th quote: I said it in 3286; that's my reasoning at the moment. I may add more as I analyze Mastin's posts in this game thus far.

You're saying you need to analyze my posts in the game. Yet you're scumreading me.

From a player relying on logic, this is as close as a scumclaim as you can get.

You either analyzed them already and concluded scum or you haven't analyzed them and have that doubt. There's no alternatives from a town player with your self-admitted style of play.

And what's wrong with analyzing and scumreading at the same time? I also nullread, townread and read other factors of the game to read you, simultaneously sometimes. Don't ignore that. Does that mean I will become null all of a sudden in your reads list?

I wouldn't trust your statement on that. I'm not discrediting you, but you know too little of me to make such a statement. Going back to a philosophy each player adheres to, my philosophy believes that there is always an alternative. I did not reveal everything about myself and my meta, and CF can attest to that when I invited him into the off-site where he can analyze me in his leisure.

I'll have some faith in the people I trust. Stalin, what will you do? You clearly don't want to lynch RBD cause you think he's town. Who's the alternative then? I don't see PV being scummy; rather, there is a lack of townreads on him.

Clyton, where did this trust come from?

There's also this.
(Also, I'm obviously slightly sheeping DesBRO, since they basically brought up my reasoning before I could vocalize it.)

That is fine. If you are town, then my advice is that you continue to suspect me due to the fact that I cannot be understood from your perspective. Use the foundation you have built (your trust on CF for instance, and extending to that, his read on me). In this case, do not think from your perspective, but other people perspectives (but mines, because you are not able to understand my perspective).

I'll love it if one of his reasonings for me being scum is invoking the trust of others, since he's attempting to do it here. (The difference being he's specifically manipulating F-16 who happens to have an opinion that's convenient for Clyton, whereas zMuffinman can't be manipulated by me and I wouldn't even bother trying.)

It goes both ways. I believe in terms of invoking someone's trust, it is not alignment indicative and more like trying to garner support. Town should be ideally gaining the trust of many. They know they are apart of many, yet they are alone (this is no allegory, you can clearly get this and so can JSU). Likewise, scum can manipulate the trust of others to benefit the team/their personal needs. No matter what, invoking someone's trust is always attempted to get support, regardless of who they are, and I would expect a lot to happen in mafia games in general.

[Clyton]

This trust came from the fact that we were in similar situations. You were in a dilemma like I was. RBD was town, but I would rather sacrifice him for the sake of avoiding a no lynch. But I didn't find PV (where he was the alternative wagon) to be scummy based on my scum/town/nullread on him (or lack thereof). I was asking you for alternatives.

This is also bullshit. It makes no sense.

Clarify what doesn't make sense to you. Don't be a JSU and ignore this request.

Look at any fucking game I've played with Mastin, ever. I figure out Mastin's alignment within a few posts every time. You know this, you've seen it, in the same games BRO was in. AoT? Took me a small number of posts to figure out Mastin was scum and I stuck to that vote for the entire three days it took to lynch her. Too Many Heads? I had her figured out within the first couple posts after she replaced in and stuck with that read for the rest of the game. In games you haven't been in, it's the same deal. The most recent Xeno game? I had Mastin figured out from her opening posts and "buddied" her the rest of the game because of it. Mastin is someone I have an amazingly easy time reading, I do not think I'm shooting in the dark with this, and I do think she is town here.

What's worse is you have a heavy meta player (F16) who really has no excuse not to know this about me/mastin if he's read ANY games me/mastin have played together. And he thinks DespBro has a point here. And he thinks we're both scum with AP because.... ??????????????????????? Scum theatre? ??????????? ??????????????

If my posts seem like they're injected with vitriol here, it's because I loathe that sort of playstyle. It's why (prior to the miller counter-claim) I told Nati I'm no longer playing the game - I cannot deal with players who play like that. It's fucking enraging because not only are they playing like that, they have the sheer fucking arrogance of thinking they're right about something I know to be 100% wrong. Like I generally have confidence in my reads, but at no point do I ever say something like F16 said recently ("I've figured out the game earlier than others"). Holy fucking shit that post. I could honestly not believe how fucking arrogant someone so fucking wrong could be.

By the way, anyone thinking Rancid's death after this is coincidental is an idiot or scum.

That's a rather absurd simplification of what I said. I said I found all three of you, Mastin, and AP scummy and I wouldn't discount you being in a team. If you are scum, you can continue lying about it but if you are town, realize that you misinterpreted what I am saying.

JANITORED no less. Rancid was JANITORED. And it was comments like this that explain that. 'Cause guess what? It's the worst fucking thing for the town Rancid's alignment regardless. Rancid's scum, the info is kept from us. Rancid's town, his town/scumreads cannot be validated, among them the vital (VITAL) townread on me. (Btw, that's why you can tell that, alignment regardless, I had nothing to do with the janitor/kill on Rancid. Him flipping town would clear me.)

Tammy knows this from Anything Goes where she was scum with Mastin and [masting] identified who she was going to mislynch. It didn't matter to Mastin that Angry Frat BROS pegged the entire scumteam because the rest of the town weren't going to listen to them.

I identified threats, and identified how players would be read. Correctly. You saw it in AoT as well. With near-perfect accuracy, I identified players' roles in the game, be it mislynch or nightkill.

So how would I have made a miscalculation this game, F-16, of this magnitude? Where all my supposed mislynches...aren't getting mislynched, not even close, and are scumreading me? In Anything Goes, there was a grand total of two players I marked for mislynching that scumread me. (Desp and AFB.) All my other mislynch targets didn't. This game, my "mislynch targets" have been Tammy, you, Fox/Hound, DesBRO, PV, and recently Clyton. And I'm null to scum to all of them.

Your logic, simply put, doesn't hold up. Because you're writing onto me my scumplay when it doesn't exist.

Also, the "ignore Muffin" advice was good so I am going to do that from now.

Because his read on me is inconvenient to your narrative.

[Clyton]

AP worries me, but I don't really have anything solid to go on there. And his vote on me during the governor/gladiate thing pinged but he did indicate paranoia once or twice during day 1 and LB

did

come off incredibly town during that.

Meh. If I had another role, I'd be more inclined to sort him now. Since I can't die, I'm going to put that off for a while. He IS nullscum to me overall, but I'm not going to get into a debate with him when we have Clyton and PV around, still.

Beli still scumreads Mastin, and depending on how today goes I could see us putting our vote there today.

Yet I do not understand your attack on me for being honest in regards to being frustrated with the state of the majority near the end of Day 1.

Because it comes across as being scum realizing they showed a weakness and now need a way to have covered it up.

Especially since this is how your scumread on me evolved.

My scumread on you came from painstakingly doing analysis, and showing it in-thread, and reanalyzing everything and showing my thoughts. It had a clear progression. It was in the thread, laid out. Yours is hidden behind the shadows, broken and jarred.

Writing a defense is so much easier than writing an offense.

Especially for scum. Because town players don't give a damn about looking good, but scum players do. (I wish you were a frequent on MS.net so that this post could be a scumtell from you, but alas. It could be legitimate culture clash.)

Potshot guess at a scumteam would be Clyton, PV, orc, and AP, but eh.

A frequent offensive as a town member is a disadvantageous tactic. You ruthlessly continue your attacks on me, but you make no case to defend yourself, which I believe you have even said so earlier in the game. What if your attacks doesn't break this defensive wall I put up? Then you expose yourself to being attacked by others. People will misunderstand you, and you will misunderstand them for why they are attacking you in the first place. Town players don't need to look good, true, but if they can't even post an ounce of credibility through defending themselves, then their cries for a majority lynch will be ignored. In this case, it's happening now. You're really no threat and many have their accusations against you, some more hidden than mines.

Also, pointing out holes in your attack. One, you continue to see that particular post of mines as an attempt to cover up when you refuse the alternative I presented. Two, you admitted that your analysis is laid out. If I read your analysis and continued to make such a statement, then that would lead to this; exposing myself in the more public open. Yet I still did just that. I am sure you can deduce what I have done. I baited you out so I can:

1. See what actual case you have against me.

2. Tri-read more of your attack/emotional-based posts, especially against me.

[Clyton]

Spoiler: Clyton wall

I cannot assume the credibility of anyone's reads, and I ask that others would do the same with mines.

For someone claiming to not assume the credibility of anyone's reads...you sure have asked for a lot of players to trust in the credibility of townreads on you.

Are you sure you got that statement right? Reference some proof; it is your responsibility to show proof in your attacks against me.

I ask you refer to me such posts that indicates such behaviour.

Let's see. The massive wall war with AP. The fact that I fullclaimed, giving up on fighting to get myself nightkilled. My snarking towards players like DesBRO and F-16. The list goes on and on. It was in my iso long before it was in Rancid's. You coulda made a better case for Rancid copying me than you could for me being different from his.

War with AP: looking back at it, nothing stood out to me. I was under the assumption that was how you always acted, not because you are frustrated to the point of giving up.
Fullclaim: you admitted that you gave up on fighting so you can get nightkilled, which was part of your strategy since the beginning. Not a lot of people can differentiate if you were truly frustrated or you were enacting that strategy. Also, fullclaiming doesn't mean you give up on this game.
Rancid: he more effectively vented out his frustrations that even I can notice it through a quick skim/no analysis look.

To be fair, you did not have much of a defense during the time I issued such a suggestion to orc.

Bullfuckingshit. Both Kagura and Rancid have been insisting I'm town (WITH REASONS!) for most of the fucking game.

Apparently from my memory, this occurred much earlier. I already discussed RBD and his hypothetical lack of credibility, and Kagura is not in a good spot assumingly as he is getting assaulted from his neighbours because of his late appearance in Day 1 when the wagon was nearing its end.

You are attacking me on a ground where it is not applicable to the game at hand.

And now you know the crux of what I've been saying about the scumreads on me all fucking game.

You could've clearly stated this in a more dialogical manner and people would have come to understand you. I already mentioned why people are misunderstanding you.

And what's wrong with analyzing and scumreading at the same time?

Because

you offered to enter into a fucking 1v1 against me

. If you analyzed things and found them to be scum, sure. Battle. If you were analyzing things and were beginning to scumread me, you'd point it out but not risk it. Because know what a critical piece of logical, analytical play is? CAUTION. Which you have displayed the entire game. You've shown a lack of commitment to reads, being willing to reconsider them. Meaning that if you hadn't done your analysis? You'd have taken that stance on me.

Instead, you admit you didn't do the analysis...yet you also insist on trying to kill me anyway. From certain players, this might be normal. For a fucking self-admitted logical analytical player, it simply makes zero sense coming from town.

And I'm still considering my reads on you. You are the case of being a misunderstood townie getting kicked around because you refuse to defend yourself and keep provoking (attacking) your attackers. Also, I have not even shown you my analysis; don't rush to conclusions. In fact, my analysis can still be expanded with the introduction of your confrontational attacks on me.

Kill you? No. I wish to understand you. Yet you dismiss such an open outreach because you are convinced I am scum. Unfortunate. Perhaps I am expecting a high level of caution from other players (you) like I had shown.

Likewise, scum can manipulate the trust of others to benefit the team/their personal needs.

The difference, however, is clear. A scum player actively works to gain that trust and manipulates players. You've done that. A town player doesn't actively work to gain that trust and simply assumes it will be there. It was.

This applies to a difference in mafia philosophy/playstyle once again. I suggest you ignore the trust factor in debating against me.

Because fuck getting into a 1v1 wall war, I'm spoilering this shit.

[Clyton]

You ruthlessly continue your attacks on me, but you make no case to defend yourself, which I believe you have even said so earlier in the game.

Yep! And believe me. It's not because I can't defend myself. I can. It's because me being town is so fucking self-evident that I don't even really need to bother putting in the effort.

Yet how can you explain other people being so adamant about you being scum? You are clearly capable yet you refuse to resort to such a tactic. That is your downfall in the scenario you will be lynched, which can be easily possible if you keep that up.

What if your attacks doesn't break this defensive wall I put up?

If at first you don't succeed...
Try, try again.
Which, thanks to my role, I can.

(Or I could just get PV lynched and become obvtown because me bussing remains an abnormality in my play which while not impossible is still unusual.)

Unfortunately, people have already agreed that your role is not truly town-indicative. Why the suspicion on you would continue then? Your role is not established because it has not been tested. A killer has yet to target you today. Unless a the designated scum killer/town vig claims they tried to kill you and fail, your role will be speculation on the basis that you are trying to save your hide by roleclaiming.

Then you expose yourself to being attacked by others.

Sure do. Don't give a damn. See, that's the thing about town players on MS.net. (Again, gods, I wish I could scumread you for this, even though culture clash is far more likely the answer.) They don't care about others scumreading them. They care

about lynching scum

, and devote all their effort to it.

Culture Clash lel

You're really no threat and many have their accusations against you, some more hidden than mines.

I love it when scum call me not a threat. It really has a way of blowing up in their faces.

No comment needed here.

If I read your analysis and continued to make such a statement, then that would lead to this; exposing myself in the more public open. Yet I still did just that.

The problem is that you're insisting it doesn't exist, and have flat-out called me not a threat. You think you have the edge over me. You don't think pushing me will backfire, and you think that in a fight, you'll win because you think that no matter how town I look, your logic will be superior. That gives you plenty enough reason to 'risk' it, given that there's enough players potentially supporting you that you don't think you'd catch flak.

Oh, and by the way. A lot of your points against my points aren't direct counters, but are more misdirections. Wish I could explain that.

Never have I insisted such thing. Deliberately hiding this fact until revealing it later does not equate to someone not insisting such a fact.

In the purest form, a 1v1 is a great approach to investigating one another. You don't have to spill out everything in an all-out gambit like you are doing. You just have to realize I have the resources ten fold your entire stack.

Misdirections can be explained. Perhaps you are simply not capable of explaining yours yet.

(Not spoilering this one. 'Cause I didn't feel like it.)

[Clyton]

Summary of MastinSSK

(lest anyone of you wants an analysis of all of his posts in his nearing 350 post-count ISO):

This misdirection that Mastin mentioned can be explained: I am focusing on his playstyle. Well of course, it is the reason why out of the multiple alignment reads I did on him, the townread stood out the most based on his playstyle. I generally stood with that read for the first 250 ISO posts of Mastin's, and looking back, I would continue to genuinely believe Mastin being town for those 250 posts. His playstyle and thinking between all his posts were overall consistent. Although I did mention flaws in his playstyles that simply goes against my philosophy of mafia/playstyle, that is fine; there were other flaws that went against his own words that he swore by, something of which is more glaring and that I cannot overlook. "The here and now?" Still references reads based on previous games on particular players (Kagura, AP, PV, etc.) and does not seem to be objectively reading them in the context of this game. Complains about people discrediting when he himself is using discrediting tactics against me (in my perspective at least). These are the most major ones, withholding the weak contradictions I found. I also had trouble figuring out if these posts were truly out of frustration as Mastin tried to defend with. I doubt there were any frustration posts due to his consistency with his playstyle and thinking for this game based on his role, till near the end of Day 1 (not as apparent as RBD's though).

So if his playstyle and thinking being apparent in all his posts (creating that consistency) is what made me see him town, then why did my read changed to him being scum? The reason is simple: the flaws that I cannot overlook (mentioned in the 1st paragraph) are showing. They are going against his thinking and playstyle more inconsistently, and these flaws are not because of mafia philosophy differences or playstyles. Although I have now moved Mastin up to the special "townies that are easily misunderstood to the public list" with an actual weak possibility of either alignment, he is still in fact, my strongest scumread. This should not be a surprise to anyone considering that I am a very cautious player and my placement of each people are based on such. I suppose why I was caught off-guard is simply because Mastin did not know how to handle himself once his (supposed) role was claimed to the public. What strategy is there left with his role revealed? Everything since thereforth has been purely based on adapting to the situations presented to him. With the amount of aggressors against him, he barked back just as loudly and aggressively. I admit two faults from me: hurriedly rushing this analysis of his newfound approach, and disregarding what made him town in the first place in respect to this different approach. Regardless, with the roleclaim he made, supposing it is real, Mastin has been made irrelevant to the game. The only way Mastin can be lynched if it was a policy lynch, but I doubt the others agree if they think Mastin is the most scummiest of their reads at the moment.

From his ISO posts 250+, I can see now and understand why the scumread on me, especially the stuff he posted on Day 2. Although it is not a strong scumread, it is probably his 2nd strongest scumread based on his list. Although I am always happy to defend myself to pass the time, I rather not replicate a bunch of noise from the previous day. Hence, my stance is that Mastin is for now weakscum/weaktown that is misunderstood by the public (something he admits but didn't really do much to defend himself because playstyle reasons). I feel this debate has made me see more of Mastin's playstyle and the perspective of enacting such a playstyle. I personally think it is not effective, but I will interact with any posts he makes that have some sort of genuine outreach to me and have some sort of relevancy to the topic at hand that can be found under that aggressive presence within all his posts.

Now Mastin, the real thing. Why the push against PV? I obviously don't see it if I'm asking you this. I am still trying to figure him out. Please refrain from saying "this is not town PV" because that is clearly going against your declaration of looking and dealing at the "here and now." Tell me from an objective stance you took upon, and just maybe, other people can see you as town assuming they agree with your push.

[Clyton]

AP, calm down a bit. You're going everywhere with your content.

You started out with a fake report on CF to test if he was truly miller or not? You thought the three people you wanted to investigate are scummy? And now you are saying you were most likely roleblocked? How did you get an investigation result on Kagura (which the Mafia team chose to be investigated) if that was what happened in the first place?

[Clyton]

You started out with a fake report on CF to test if he was truly miller or not? You thought the three people you wanted to investigate are scummy? And now you are saying you were most likely roleblocked? How did you get an investigation result on Kagura (which the Mafia team chose to be investigated) if that was what happened in the first place?

I claimed an inno on F16 because I wanted to see who they'd react to it. I legitimately did not foresee this tidal wave of pitchforks rolling my way over what I figured would be an extremely transparent play once I clarified it.

Yes I've been calling Kagura and PV scum most of yesterday. Orcinus was a more meh read but I figured he'd be good to have info on given that he was in the spotlight yesterday.

I was almost definitely roleblocked.

I don't know? I followed up with Cabd a little when I saw it and he basically said he wasn't allowed to elaborate but that he could tell me that I "attempted" to investigate Kagura. So I dont know. I expected to not be told anything about my target if I were RBd given the wording Cabd originally sent me but apparently I -do- get that piece of information anyways. not that it matters, scum can just rtandomize their target for me if I am getting RBd anyways.

Then one final question. I want to know why you thought Kagura was scum for the

most

of yesterday. Aside from people giving him conftown reads based on prior games, and overall null reads from other people based on his lack of activity, the scumreads on Kagura didn't become apparent until late Day 1, where he suddenly appeared in a weird timing (as CF and the neighbours discussed). If I missed something, correct me. But reference the very beginning post that you thought Kagura was scum for reasons, assuming it is not part of the late Day 1 phase.

[Clyton]

See AP, this is what I don't understand. What is the rationale for a roleblocker to RB you? If it is a town RB, why RB a claimed cop? Take the chance and use the information he provides (even with fake; importance being using it as an alternative guideline) while RBing other suspects with potential kill power. Based on the kill results, there were two kills, one obviously done by scum, therefore highlighting the importance of RBing the correct target rather than someone who claimed cop. If it is a scum RB, you outright stated the mafia can choose who you will investigate. They can manipulate in many ways possible with this. There is no gain for the mafia roleblocker to RB you.

[Clyton]

*even if fake.

@Fox, I can sum up my rebuttals here. But the expected response (that is inherently scummy) from me will obviously be "but I haven't revealed my full playstyle in a large game yet!" And that part is true. I gave my off-site mafia experience link, and if you look through some of the games, there were instances that I took gambits and risks because it was necessary. The necessary thing in my perspective is to get rid of Day 1's noise and establish the town on better ground. Yet in Day 2, the debates that happened in Day 1

somewhat

spilled over here.

I'll outright state that I will disregard my exercise to caution the next day if this day does not bode well for the town. I'll softclaim that my role is partly an informative type, and I will use this information to my resources.

Realistically, no one can prevent that however if it wasn't for the revelation of orc's role and his adamant intention to put two non-obvious townies against one another. I've done my best to quell the noise coming from Mastin in regards to confronting me, but for others like PV, JSU and possibly CF, they see differently and will probably continue the push.

[Clyton]

See AP, this is what I don't understand. What is the rationale for a roleblocker to RB you? If it is a town RB, why RB a claimed cop? Take the chance and use the information he provides (even with fake; importance being using it as an alternative guideline) while RBing other suspects with potential kill power. Based on the kill results, there were two kills, one obviously done by scum, therefore highlighting the importance of RBing the correct target rather than someone who claimed cop. If it is a scum RB, you outright stated the mafia can choose who you will investigate. They can manipulate in many ways possible with this. There is no gain for the mafia roleblocker to RB you.

Why wouldn't a roleblocker block me? Obviously Im not speculating that I was roleblocked by town, I think scum blocked me.

There is gain for the mafia to RB me though, a result is a result. Im actually slightly awed by this role as far as the balance/setup designer in me goes in that I cant quite place just how powerful I think it is, but it DOES return hard results still. Yes the mafia has more room for working around it (by forcing me to investigate less optimal targets, basically making full guilties unlikely or just killing someone on my list) but that still forces the mafia to make suboptimal kills or conftown someone that was in a shortlist in the first place. It makes complete sense for mafia to want to stop that. You spend most of your time spec'ing on why town wouldnt want to RB me..and I agree. Why do you think scum would have no motive to do it though?

I believe there are more significant targets to roleblock. My suspicions about Cabd's power distribution for the town roles were confirmed when I saw RBD dead, most likely by someone outside of scum. It was confirmed that there were only two factions. Ideally, the mafia should be trying to get rid of that vigilante. While a hard result on someone is devastating, it does not "seal the deal." They can still deal with that result in multiple ways. You can't deal anything when you're dead.

Getting to Mastin now.

[Clyton]

*even if fake.

@Fox, I can sum up my rebuttals here. But the expected response (that is inherently scummy) from me will obviously be "but I haven't revealed my full playstyle in a large game yet!" And that part is true. I gave my off-site mafia experience link, and if you look through some of the games, there were instances that I took gambits and risks because it was necessary. The necessary thing in my perspective is to get rid of Day 1's noise and establish the town on better ground. Yet in Day 2, the debates that happened in Day 1

somewhat

spilled over here.

I'll outright state that I will disregard my exercise to caution the next day if this day does not bode well for the town. I'll softclaim that my role is partly an informative type, and I will use this information to my resources.

Realistically, no one can prevent that however if it wasn't for the revelation of orc's role and his adamant intention to put two non-obvious townies against one another. I've done my best to quell the noise coming from Mastin in regards to confronting me, but for others like PV, JSU and possibly CF, they see differently and will probably continue the push.

I felt like we were pretty damn obvious town by late day 1. To me it looked like orcinus set up a situation where either the lurker was lynched or it went to no-lynch.

My earlier reads also stated that LB was pretty darn town in my eyes. Not everyone share the same sentiments, and I was panicking when it was not me and Mastin (two high scum suspects) being put up on the gladiating table (I'm still not pleased with how orc used his role, but what's done is done). My fears were dispelled when LB had some sort of revival ability.

[Clyton]

And I'm still considering my reads on you.

The govern ability is a fucking gladiate. A 1v1 IN WHICH ONE OF US GETS LYNCHED. You offered to go into it. You're saying you were still trying to figure me out. Yet you offered to go what is essentially a death-match where one of us lives and the other dies. Which might be okay if you actually meant you'd be willing to self-sacrifice.
But you made it clear that you had a case on me being scum...
...While also saying you needed to analyze me...
...And also offering up to enter into a literal 1v1 where there is NO other options...
...While insisting that you're still being a cautious, logical player.

It doesn't add up.

Your attitude if different, I could see as coming from town.
Entering into a 1v1 and trying to figure me out, I can see as town albeit unlikely, because if you're willing to self-sacrifice, it's a good move. But you said you had a case on me, which heavily implies you intend to win the fight, and not bother figuring me out.
Entering into a 1v1 if you've already done the analysis and have a case makes sense--it means you fully believe me to be scum, and are willing to risk your life to prove it. Yet you claimed that you hadn't done the analysis, and now are also claiming you didn't have a read on me figured out.
Not entering into a 1v1 if you haven't done the analysis makes sense--you might have a case, but because you're not sure of it, you're not going to recklessly push it.

You're trying to claim three things simultaneously. That you thought I was scum, that you were trying to figure things out, and that you were willing to risk your life.
From a logical player, you can have two of the three. But not all three simultaneously; that's playing about as illogical as can be.

I said it before you posted/took the chance to p-edit. You don't know the full nature of my playstyle, nor anyone else here. I can easily forgo my right to caution for a more aggressive, risk-taking approach if the situation is right for me to do so. This of course, is something impossible for you to argue against (in regards to my unrevealed full playstyle), so I would not say this is an appropriate defense for me. I don't mind if you continue to see me as scum, but I can tell you that the reasons for my illogical approach can be explained purely within my playstyle should the game continue to be more unfavorable for town.

You as my strongest scumread and something I'm still trying to figure it out, while taking the risk of my life to deal with it, is something I wouldn't mind doing in 9/10 scenarios. You saw my spiel on sacrifice. I am but only a town member. I will easily sacrifice myself if the situation gets worse the next day depending on today's lynch/night kills so the town can have some leverage.

(Outside the spoiler since this is the most important bit.)

Spoiler: Clyton

Are you sure you got that statement right?

Pretty sure, you just were saying it earlier in your posting in fact. I quoted some of it before.

I was under the assumption that was how you always acted, not because you are frustrated to the point of giving up.

You were under the impression that CAPS LOCK RAGE and fullclaiming randomly were the norm for me?

I was compromised. Not a little. A lot.

Not a lot of people can differentiate if you were truly frustrated or you were enacting that strategy.

Hint: Rancid was one of them and is now dead. Kagura is another of them. Mac was no slouch, either.

You yourself admitted not to trust in the word of the person saying it, but in the words of others supporting it. And, well. Others supported it.

Kill you? No. I wish to understand you.

Bullshit. Maybe you're pretending to do so now. But you offered to fucking 1v1 me. As said, that doesn't come from someone trying to understand; that comes from someone who is trying to kill.

Yet how can you explain other people being so adamant about you being scum?

Already have. Basically, it boils down to them living in the past and extreme arrogance.

Unfortunately, people have already agreed that your role is not truly town-indicative.

Not the point I was making. The point I was making is that my role means I can't get nightkilled. Meaning that I can afford to keep pushing and pushing and failing...

because I cannot die, I cannot be gotten rid of, and I cannot be removed

.

A killer has yet to target you today.

Actually, about that. A killer might have done so already. I'm not going to elaborate for obvious reasons. Just something that I picked up, and if I was even remotely correct, they know who they are and why I know them and think that they shot me.

"The here and now?" Still references reads based on previous games on particular players (Kagura, AP, PV, etc.) and does not seem to be objectively reading them in the context of this game.

I'm not? The closest you can come to me having done that is Fox/Hound in Xeno, but even then, I wasn't using Xeno to read them. I read Fox/Hound, Rancid, Kagura, AP, and PV and so on and so forth on the here and now. I also described the generalities of their playstyles, and how I know them and they know me. All general things, not linked to a specific game. I even explicitly explained what I meant. That I reference the general, and that's how I think, and may have a recent game where that trait was strongest, but that I'm not using that game specifically; I still mean it generally. Which is still in the here and the now.

I doubt there were any frustration posts due to her consistency with his playstyle and thinking for this game based on her role, till near the end of Day 1 (not as apparent as RBD's though).

Town, scum, doesn't matter. I say I was frustrated, I was fucking frustrated. The reasons differ, the results do not. (I don't do fakerage. Fakerage is, well...faked. And blatantly obviously so. Now, granted. There are fewer things that tick off a scum me. There's a reason why at times, it was considered a towntell for me to lose my shit: because a scum-me when suspected has a "meh, whatevs" attitude and is okay with it since the players suspecting me are right; a town-me...doesn't. But there are things that can tick off a scum me. Most of them being personal, like a player insulting my competency, or being hilariously wrong about their scumread on me yet frustratingly right in spite of that. [Yes, a scum me gets royally ticked off at Right-For-The-Wrong-Reasons.] Or me having a legitimate scumread as scum and not being able to get them lynched. Things like that, as scum, will cause legitimate rage.)

Mastin did not know how to handle herself once her (supposed) role was claimed to the public.

No shit, sherlock. BP claimed BP. Will no longer be able to get shot at. How'd you handle that? It took me 'til today to realize that I can still be a pain in the ass for scum. (Also, it's a

really fucking bad idea

to claim to be BP when you're not actually a BP as either alignment, really.)

Although it is not a strong scumread, it is probably his 2nd strongest scumread based on his list.

Correct. I don't have many scumreads, and bluntly, I don't need to. Perk of my role, I suppose.

(This one is a fair general question, so is outside the spoiler.)

Why the push against PV?

Because he's my strongest scumread.


But seriously. It's partially (okay, largely) POE. It's partially that I'm not putting much stock in the case for him being town. It's partially that I'm not liking most of his posting. It's largely gut. But honestly, it's mainly sheeping Rancid.

Alright, that is fair and valid.

lb was a retard and didn't no lynch

more after this quick aram game

And who, pray tell, put him in there?

And again, there's a dissonance via insisting RBD is town yet not taking their read on me into consideration.

Only in an alternate universe where townies are always right and mafia games are always short.

Look. I'm not saying you should blindly trust Rancid's read on me. That would be the alternate universe. I mean, I'd like to. I'd love to say that. But I'm not. It's theoretically possible for me to have fooled the players who know me best, I guess, especially short-term.

...But you're not even taking it into consideration. It's had zero influence over your read. You're discarding it, casting away that vital piece of evidence. Which was formed...over the course of nineteen fucking days. Not short-term by any stretch of the imagination.

Scenario: Orci is scum. He therefore knows who is town and who isn't. He puts two

non-obvious

townies in.

...And is removing a late-game mislynch, while potentially also making the survivor be obvtown in the process, costing him a second mislynch.

By putting in someone who is obvtown and someone who isn't with both being town, it's win-win. Obvtown lynched, an obvtown player got lynched. Mislynch got lynched? Mislynch got mislynched. It's the optimum scum strategy.

So ya I didnt even submit on CF.

I almost want to say that AP's competency as scum means he wouldn't bother trying to pull this stunt as scum and would only pull the derp-gambit as town.
Almost.

VOTE: AngryPidgeon.
Butyeah. This is AP as scum. He's not going to pull a stunt like this as town.

Responses in bold within the quote.

[Clyton]

Ok... I missed some of your stuff lol. Let me just it here.

Trust: I would take a majority's opinion as trust then one person's opinion. I think it is fair enough to state this because the majority is most likely town anyways. However, perhaps I overestimated how many supporters there was actually there (if there were less than 8 people for a 4-member mafia, then that is the standard I will set to in regards to trusting the majority's opinion).

Understanding: The understanding is coming in Day 2. If it were still late Day 1, I would definitely be trying to kill you still (if LB didn't claim his revival ability and orc used his ability in a FIXATED manner, then that would continue to urge me to kill you).

"The Here and Now": Thanks for clarifying. That is really helpful.

Personal Frustration: Touchy topic lol. I already said my spiel when I said it to RBD/JSU the previous day.

[Clyton]

I enjoyed reading your ISO. I look forward to more of them.

[Clyton]

Other than Mastin waxing scumetic, not much is going on in the thread. Would like to hear if neighborhood activity is more informative at least.

@Carbon-

Did you neighborize another group? And who is in your first group (Yarrgarda, you, Foxhound)?

He neighbourized the Xillia group, in which me and Titan are in. We are discussing this predicament as we speak.

[Clyton]

Correction, I don't think I will be getting any discussion from Titan anytime soon. They are busy lel

[Clyton]

Sorry everyone, I'll be somewhat busy over the weekend. I'll be catching up in the meanwhile, so hopefully expect a post from me tomorrow?

[Clyton]

Sorry everyone, I am still really packed with things happening in my life. I'll try to post everything you guys wanted out of me by Monday; if not, you can suspect me for intentional V/LA abuse to avoid discussion contribution.

[Clyton]

Other than Mastin waxing scumetic, not much is going on in the thread. Would like to hear if neighborhood activity is more informative at least.

@Carbon-

Did you neighborize another group? And who is in your first group (Yarrgarda, you, Foxhound)?

He neighbourized the Xillia group, in which me and Titan are in. We are discussing this predicament as we speak.

Are you all together, or just you three?

It should be only me and Titan.

Spoiler: Mental to-do list

I'm trying to figure out a reach-out to DesBRO. (Coming up empty, though. The only time I did a successful reach-out to BRO was when I had a mason role and 'crumbed it as said reach-out.)

I will likely need a reach-out to Clyton, but my wavering (and, ultimately, waning) scumread there is at least a start, since I think we might be coming to a bit of an understanding of each other, and that said understanding (if legitimate) means he can be town and can be worked with.

I guess I could also reach out to orcinus and PV, in spite of my scumreads on them, but aside from, "Hi, I think you're both scum", I can't really think of anything to discuss (not argue) with them other than that, because while I'm open to being wrong about my read, I don't see how I would be. Oh, I guess I also need to reach out to Red Gyarados, since I'm not sure they're town.

When it comes to Fox/Hound, they're not someone who I so much need to reach out on, so much as they are someone I need to analyze. They're already kinda sorta with me already, and my read on them is continuously changing, but I don't think that interacting with them more directly will help, and that the only way I can get a read on them that sticks is by getting bearings on them via other factors.

I removed Tammy from the list, because again, I'm not sure there's any reach-out I can do that Rancid didn't already do. If you want to talk with me about anything, Tammy, just tell me and I will, but I can't think of anything to initiate conversation aside from a weaker "trust Rancid".

Clyton/Tammy:

Keep us posted on your blazing. I realize there's business right now, but when you have the time, it'd be great to actually have neighbors who are sharing stuff about each other. Like overall thoughts and general impressions and such.

Understanding: The understanding is coming in Day 2.

So I can kinda sorta guess at it, Clyton, but mind making it explicit what the understanding you have is?

My understanding is that I'm trying to understand you rather than try to lynch you D1, and I think it has garnered me results I am taking note of.

I can easily forgo my right to caution for a more aggressive, risk-taking approach if the situation is right for me to do so.

Why did you deem it appropriate to forgo caution for more aggressive recklessness near the end of D1?

There's nothing for me to lose, and I believe that if town were to have a stable foundation, I would challenge and attempt to get rid of the noise aka you.

I can tell you that the reasons for my illogical approach can be explained purely within my playstyle should the game continue to be more unfavorable for town.

If you're able to, I'd like to have some elaboration on this as well.

At the moment, this is not possible for me to enact. We still have time to figure out the possibility of who's scum and follow through with a townplan towards the endgame.

(I'm still not pleased with how orc used his role, but what's done is done).

If you're not pleased with how the role was used, what do you think (if anything) that means for orcinus's alignment?

I already said that I believe the role is not alignment indicative. But this does not mean we should policy lynch orcinus unless we have more points at him that he is scum.

AP, calm down a bit. You're going everywhere with your content.

What's your current AP read?

My read on him has reverted to being undeveloped. But, my main goal for D2 is to focus on AP and his gambit/claim. At the moment, I am not entirely too settled with what content he has been posting.

I already discussed RBD and his hypothetical lack of credibility, and Kagura is not in a good spot assumingly as he is getting assaulted from his neighbours because of his late appearance in Day 1 when the wagon was nearing its end.

What's your current take on Rancid and Kagura's stances? (And alignment, for that matter.) I'm especially interested, because of this:

Trust: I would take a majority's opinion as trust then one person's opinion. I think it is fair enough to state this because the majority is most likely town anyways.

I believe Rancid is most likely town up to his death, and my reads on him won't develop because he is dead. Kagura I think has a lot of relevancy in regards to people interacting with him (AP for example). At the moment, Kagura is also someone I would like to deal with in D2 along with AP.

In regards to going against the opposing majority of RBD being scum, that can be resolved with what BWS has stated which will come along later in this post.

I need to get better at this whole discussing thing. (There's more I'm sure I should be thinking of, but this is about it that comes to mind.) I'm sure somewhere down the line, there was something to come up in me that you didn't quite get either, Clyton, so me asking all these questions to you means it's only fair you get to do the same for me.

My thought is vig. I've given some minor thought to 2 scum teams, and it might make sense of where the daytime lines get drawn, but I'm nowhere near convinced that's what's going on.

Please tell me this isn't real

I forget who suggested it. I've rolled it around in my head a few times. I dunno. I don't think so. The puzzle pieces aren't coming together very easily, though.

I think the huge divergence in RBD reads indicates two very different fragments of town in this game, with two strongly divergent ideas about what is going on.

This I agree with.

Hey, guys. Will read the thread after posting, but first? Bear with me for a bit. You're about to get a dosage of Mastin logic, but I think it might actually be Mac's logic using Cabdlogic, too.

Mac's role was a MODIFIED rolestop-bodyguard. A bodyguard dies when protecting, and a rolestopper stops all actions on a player like the JK variant alien, but allows the target to still act. This normally INCLUDES nightkills, contrary to what AP says, because again, that's how the role is defined.
Bodyguard is redundant with rolestop, normally.
Thus, the modified.
So I have a theory.

Mac's ability was to stop any scum ability on a given player. If scum killed Mac's target, Mac would die, like a bodyguard. If scum targeted Mac's target with some other ability (let's say something like rolecop or sane cop [Hey, Cabd game; it could happen]), I'm theorizing that Mac would ROLESTOP that ability...but still die.

This sounds like a frighteningly-plausible role coming from Cabd, and makes total sense to me as being a possibility. I realize there's some slight logical leaps involved, but take that a little bit further, and you get my theory:
Mac used his ability on Kagura. A scum power targeted Kagura. Mac rolestopped it, at the cost of his own life.
In the mean time, scum jan-killed Rancid. And the vig either didn't/couldn't/chose not to kill, or also killed Rancid.

Yeah, I realize it might seem like there are a LOT of assumptions in here, and it's a little bit convoluted. But in my twisted mind, it makes perfect sense.

VOTE: AngryPidgeon.

Hey, guys. Will read the thread after posting, but first? Bear with me for a bit. You're about to get a dosage of Mastin logic, but I think it might actually be Mac's logic using Cabdlogic, too.

Mac's role was a MODIFIED rolestop-bodyguard. A bodyguard dies when protecting, and a rolestopper stops all actions on a player like the JK variant alien, but allows the target to still act. This normally INCLUDES nightkills, contrary to what AP says, because again, that's how the role is defined.
Bodyguard is redundant with rolestop, normally.
Thus, the modified.
So I have a theory.

Mac's ability was to stop any scum ability on a given player. If scum killed Mac's target, Mac would die, like a bodyguard. If scum targeted Mac's target with some other ability (let's say something like rolecop or sane cop [Hey, Cabd game; it could happen]), I'm theorizing that Mac would ROLESTOP that ability...but still die.

This sounds like a frighteningly-plausible role coming from Cabd, and makes total sense to me as being a possibility. I realize there's some slight logical leaps involved, but take that a little bit further, and you get my theory:
Mac used his ability on Kagura. A scum power targeted Kagura. Mac rolestopped it, at the cost of his own life.
In the mean time, scum jan-killed Rancid. And the vig either didn't/couldn't/chose not to kill, or also killed Rancid.

Yeah, I realize it might seem like there are a LOT of assumptions in here, and it's a little bit convoluted. But in my twisted mind, it makes perfect sense.

VOTE: AngryPidgeon.

Christ almighty Scum-mastin....

Kagura is either an Asectic or something similar.

If kagura is scum with AP, then AP reports town on Kagura, unless he wants to distance from Kagura scum-flip.
Scum Kagura acts confused and doesn't know why AP got no result if AP is town. Scum Kagura does not confirm AP lack of result unless they are scum together.
Town Kagura might confirm AP result, since they know their own role. Town Kagura does not let unknown-AP die because of no-result result.
If AP is scum and got no-result on Kagura, he might report that to avoid a 1 vs 1, but he could also clear Kagura as town to buddy or confirm his role. The fact he reported a no-result means he actually probably got it.

So, either they are both scum who coordinated their results and presentations of those results, or Kagura is town and AP is an honest results-getting scum or has access to one, or Kagura is scum-avoider who doesn't want to lynch a town PR or they are both fucking town being honest but not wanting to give too much away.

Sorry guys but I think I've reached my bullshit tolerance for today.

In regards to the theory Mastin and PV presented with, I can see either being plausible. I think a good start is to test if these theories are true and hopefully get a scum caught.

/content to come in a bit.

I am going to say this one more time, please stop spamming the thread. You are making the game harder to sift through. I'd actually very much like to hear from Kagura, Orc, Clyton, and Titan.

CF, what do you mean by "moving forward"?

Before we go ahead with a lynch but I'd actually be interested in seeing Kagura's thoughts.

Are you guys going to want my notes to be posted

Go for it. I'd like to see them.

Titan based on your neighborhood stuff do you have an opinion about Clyton?

Clyton, what are your thoughts?

Thoughts on what? Sorry, I skimmed through.

To clarify, Nacho last posted yesterday morning saying that he thought scum was among MastinSSK, AP, Clyton, Orc, and PV. I was waiting to hear updated thoughts mostly.

Oh, btw, did you get a good read on Clyton in the neighborhood?

Just skimming for right now, but are you not in the Titan/Clyton neighborhood?

It's been discussed and corrected more than once that he creates the neighborhoods but is not in them (except for his world).

Though Clyton did mention thinking we had a lurker, I don't know why he thought that.

I thought we did; you never know if someone's in the neighbourhood and only lurked around seeing our posts. Is there a site function to see who's in the neighbourhood? lol

[Clyton]

On the other hand, I am moving tomorrow. So, I am putting an official V/LA.

V/LA until Thursday (so I can get some form of Internet at the place I'm moving in).

If I do appear during my V/LA period, then that's good. I can continue what I currently have in my mind.

[Clyton]

An update: I have almost settled moving into my new place, but I still have no Internet. The ISP guy will come on May 9th, which I believe the Day would end by then. Right now I'm depending on library Internet, but as of right now posting this, it will be closing in under 10 minutes.

I have to respond to CF's post on top of page 165, but besides that, I skimmed up to this point. I am heavily considering me being replaced due to my circumstances, but I will let Cabd know through PM should I make that decision. For now, I will try to keep up and contribute/discuss with anyone.

As for the others who were wondering where I was, I'm not sure how you not saw my official bolded V/LA notice.

[Clyton]

I need a quick reference but can someone give me a good meta analysis on Cupcake and why he is Town/Scum in this game as a result of that reference post? Could be in this game or elsewhere.

[Clyton]

It'd be cool if we break 400 and become the largest large theme mafia game on this site so far.

[Clyton]

Generally, throughout this game, you all knew me as analytical and cautious, and that is reflected upon my reads list (the lack of an overall scum on the list should be apparent/pretty much everyone is more town than they are scum at this point). But let me present to you what I truly think: a reads list without any outside influence and purely all in my opinion and personal analysis. I feel this is needed to direct people on what to really look for; the current state of the game is far too stagnant.

Remember, no meta, no influence from other people's reads list. All in my personal opinion.

Perfect Town:
Lord Business
Mac

Strong Town:
Titan

Town:
The Fox and the Hound
Just Sheep Us
nachomamma8
Breakfast With Stalin
Red Gyarados

Weak Town:
PeregrineV
AngryPidgeon
Rancid Broderick Drake
Carbon Fiber
CupcakePanda
MastinSSK

Null:
magenta_thegreat
Yggdra Union

I watched Titan night one, hoping that scum will be targeting her first. Unfortunately, they chose Mac (my 2nd strongest town read at that time). No one except me visited her that night.

I can tell you that Titan knows two-fifths of my role at this point. Granted, they are not really helpful if this game continues like this because we are all not making much progress to build up upon. This is why I felt there needs to be a push in a specific direction before deadline draws really close.

If none of you can come to an overall agreement by deadline, personally, I would push for a policy lynch on either Mastin, CF or CupcakePanda. A bunch of reasons have been said multiple times already in Day 2 for Mastin and CF; I don't have to repeat it. I am showing a bit of bias towards CP; maybe he's conservative, or maybe he's just threading by. Regardless, I am not particularly fond of his playstyle. But I'm sure CP will eventually step up when the game goes towards a more clearer direction, that I have faith in. Despite the weaktown read on him, if I were to trust the meta info provided, I would put my faith in him being town.

As for my thought on the potential scum team, I would believe one would be in the town pile, two/three in the weaktown pile and one/none in the null pile.

Things to note:
- Remember that Just Sheep Us cannot read me at all. I wouldn't put some faith into his words about me (maybe that can be different for my replacement).
- I believe that RBD is indeed town. Who caused his death is unclear (vig or mafia because of the theory regarding Mac's role and AP's night action).
- Look out for CF if Mastin and AP does flip town. My prediction is that he will stubbornly cling to the fact that RBD is scum and that may cause some potential noise/a potential debate over a fact that should be irrelevant at that future point of the game (you should be still looking for the rest of scum, not delve if RBD was scum or not and confirm if there is 4 or 3 scum remaining [assuming no other scum died]).
- Yggdra Union needs to stop hiding behind that neighbourhood and come out into this main thread so others can see his thoughts on this game.
- Regarding the neighbourhood, I am not 100% confident that it is a townbloc.

[Clyton]

*Despite putting RBD into the weaktown pile, and stating that he is indeed town, this is more of a leap of faith, not concrete logical evidence.

[Clyton]

Clyton, can you explain your reads?

All or some?

I don't have much time before my replacement comes.

[Clyton]

Yes I am.

Life is happening, but I can explain post-game lol.

[Clyton]

That's all right. Hope it turns out okay.

I struck me as odd that you have no actual scumreads but want to policy lynch one of three players that you apparently have as the weakest town. Why such a strategy?

As for your other reads, if you can give a short explanation it will be nice but it is up to you. Hopefully, your replacement will be easier to read than you.

My playstyle refines everyday the more I think about current games and past games. I am opted to put no scumreads on the list. Rather, I placed people on the list according to their towniness. Therefore, my weaktown list are also the most scummiest in my view.

The policy lynch is better for the majority in my opinion. Between Mastin's high noise output, you and your arrogant belief that RBD/Mastin/AP is a scumteam (and apparently refusing to understand them when they try to reach out to you as I saw in the exchange between you and AP) and CP's overall lurking and non-care attitude at this point of game, I believe these are viable options for policy lynches.

You in particular I am worried about. If you are truly town, I question your effectiveness outside of your neighbourhood creation role should your theory/scumhunting campaign fall apart. Your interaction during your scumhunt is quite unhealthy. I know at least that assuming Mastin flips town, I reached out to him and put him in a better spot beginning of Day 2 because he was clearly being misunderstood and refused to be understood at some point in this game. I fear that if you put your scumhunting campaign on your next theorized scumbloc, people who read you as town will follow your opinion as absolute and the "scumbloc" will have no chance to argue for themselves (including all the contributions they made for town up to that point).

I also ask you reconsider your view on your neighbourhood. It may appear as a townbloc now, but there's a high chance later this game that it will not appear as so. This is not to put doubt in everyone's minds if they already saw the neighbourhood as a townbloc. This is the cautionary me telling you to not claim facts that are not yet fully revealed that can skew the direction of the game.

[Clyton]

That's all right. Hope it turns out okay.

I struck me as odd that you have no actual scumreads but want to policy lynch one of three players that you apparently have as the weakest town. Why such a strategy?

As for your other reads, if you can give a short explanation it will be nice but it is up to you. Hopefully, your replacement will be easier to read than you.

My playstyle refines everyday the more I think about current games and past games. I am opted to put no scumreads on the list. Rather, I placed people on the list according to their towniness. Therefore, my weaktown list are also the most scummiest in my view.

The policy lynch is better for the majority in my opinion. Between Mastin's high noise output, you and your arrogant belief that RBD/Mastin/AP is a scumteam (and apparently refusing to understand them when they try to reach out to you as I saw in the exchange between you and AP) and CP's overall lurking and non-care attitude at this point of game, I believe these are viable options for policy lynches.

You in particular I am worried about. If you are truly town, I question your effectiveness outside of your neighbourhood creation role should your theory/scumhunting campaign fall apart. Your interaction during your scumhunt is quite unhealthy. I know at least that assuming Mastin flips town, I reached out to him and put him in a better spot beginning of Day 2 because he was clearly being misunderstood and refused to be understood at some point in this game. I fear that if you put your scumhunting campaign on your next theorized scumbloc, people who read you as town will follow your opinion as absolute and the "scumbloc" will have no chance to argue for themselves (including all the contributions they made for town up to that point).

I also ask you reconsider your view on your neighbourhood. It may appear as a townbloc now, but there's a high chance later this game that it will not appear as so. This is not to put doubt in everyone's minds if they already saw the neighbourhood as a townbloc.

This is the cautionary me telling you to not claim facts that are not yet fully revealed that can skew the direction of the game.

I'm bolding this for emphasis F-16. Thanks for your sendoff.

[Clyton]

GG everyone

Had I had time to stay in the game, I would've continued playing up to Mastin and draw this game out further in a famine-like tactic. Only when PA came in and started to accuse Mastin of being scum is when the game actually moved on.

I didn't know what I was thinking when I made my posts before I replaced out. The reads list was putrid, but I put it up anyways cause lol.