Trouble in The Cougar's Den (Game over!)

[MattP]

I havent read anything yet but congrats on wagoning someone for not posting

[MattP]

Read the game. I had a lot of questions that Heartless would ask on spot. Otherwise:

@RR

Hey ceph. DO you think we have a neutral in the game?

I have no idea, and I don't really care right now.

I take it you don't think Ika was soft claiming then?

Why do you care about what Cephrir thinks?

Ika did look like he was soft claiming neutral to me. It looked like he was testing the waters to see if he would be instantly PLd if he claimed or not.

Ika sometimes does strange things that don't make sense though, so there's really no way to tell until he gets around to telling us what he was doing there. I personally can't read ika if my life depended upon it.

I don't understand why you wouldn't have immediately brought this up if this was a concern of yours. It's weird you served this as an afterthought, only after Cephrir responded to Ika. If this was how you felt, I don't get why you wouldn't just directly confront Ika for answers about his role - he's in the game, you can ask him. The bolded portion is just especially bizarre to me. You're taking such a passive stance about your confusion of ika's alignment when there's things you easily could be doing to elucidate the situation. It looks like posturing.

BPC wagon is crap. his post IS a little concerning, but it's hardly enough to wagon someone over.

Wagons can be used for the sake of generating a response, not just for lynching. You obviously know that.

With all that said, two data points are insufficient for me to feel like BPC is scum.

And because of that fact, I think this is entirely unreasonable. You can have one scummy "data point" (not that scumtells are quantifiable) and have that serve as reason to push someone - it's called scumhunting. People using wagoning as a strategy to scumhunt, not just to make players flip.

@BOTLANE

I bet Ank was chatting in his scum chat outside his hydra and that's how he slipped. Wagon pls

VOTE: BotLane

I went and looked at the opening post just to be sure my memory wasn't faulty. The mod hasn't specified whether the scum do or do not have day chat. Your statement has an implicit assumption that they do. Care to explain that?

Love,
Drixx

VOTE: Reasonably Rational

That is not a town post.

Of all the bad posts RR made, this is the one that isn't town? Why?

I find it really hard to believe that they missed the time stamps.

You expect a lot from people

Kthx both didn't find this either as well as attributed something to him that he didn't say. This looks like a bus attempt.

Why would someone bus their partner on page 2

@BPC

I bet Ank was chatting in his scum chat outside his hydra and that's how he slipped. Wagon pls

VOTE: BotLane

I went and looked at the opening post just to be sure my memory wasn't faulty. The mod hasn't specified whether the scum do or do not have day chat. Your statement has an implicit assumption that they do. Care to explain that?

Love,
Drixx

VOTE: Reasonably Rational

That is not a town post.

my immediate thought is that it seems like some throwing under the bus. haven't really read into their other posts yet, but from skimming, I've found long in the past (like 2 years i think?) that Drixx tends to talk himself in circles no matter the alignment and it seems like that trend is continuing. I'd probs vote them but IDK where the vote count is at right now

I guess this doesn't matter anymore regarding getting a response..but noone would "throw their partner under the bus on pg1, especially by trying to point out a scumslip their partner made. That's shitty. I don't believe you believe this. I agree with Heartless's analysis. Sorry for thinking this was a lurker wagon. I'm looking forward to the replacement.

@davesto

Cephrir is really hard to read in iso. Roughly half (I did not actually count) of the posts are one-liners which give no clue as to context. At least half of that is not game related. Use of one-liners could be just playstyle as some people like to treat it like a conversation. However it does make me want to go back and see what is being discussed then to see if this could be a distraction tactic.

He's just comfortable. Cephrir is town

@Cephrir

bpc is town because of performer's bizarre actions towards him, and incidentally he never even delivered the reasons he promised herry

I think associative tells on D1 are harmful. BPC is scummy in his own right, Performer's behavior doesn't make that irrelevant.

[MattP]

Ika did look like he was soft claiming neutral to me. It looked like he was testing the waters to see if he would be instantly PLd if he claimed or not.

Ika sometimes does strange things that don't make sense though, so there's really no way to tell until he gets around to telling us what he was doing there. I personally can't read ika if my life depended upon it.

I don't understand why you wouldn't have immediately brought this up if this was a concern of yours. It's weird you served this as an afterthought, only after Cephrir responded to Ika. If this was how you felt, I don't get why you wouldn't just directly confront Ika for answers about his role - he's in the game, you can ask him. The bolded portion is just especially bizarre to me. You're taking such a passive stance about your confusion of ika's alignment when there's things you easily could be doing to elucidate the situation. It looks like posturing.

When I said "I don't understand why you wouldn't have immediately brought this up if this was a concern of yours." I was referring to this:

Ika did look like he was soft claiming neutral to me.

[MattP]

this is an open challenge to anyone townreading matt

Why?

[MattP]

VOTE: Spiffeh

Btw I think RR has obvtowned at this point and the fact that they have the most votes is stupid.

How?

What are your strongest scumreads?

[MattP]

because out of the 17 other people in the game, there might be someone else townreading that entrance and i would like to hear why.

That's not what I was trying to ask. Clearly you aren't townreading my entrance I want to know why

[MattP]

I don't like BotLane

[MattP]

because out of the 17 other people in the game, there might be someone else townreading that entrance and i would like to hear why.

That's not what I was trying to ask. Clearly you aren't townreading my entrance I want to know why

/shrug

there's really not that much there to town read. the push on RR is mediocre and i actually think the ika angle is kinda' bad.

I don't agree, it was weird. It's not like that's my biggest issue with the game. A lot of the opinions I had were explored prior to my entrance in the game. The things I pointed out were things people didn't mention prior to my replace in

[MattP]

I'm most fine with myself being wrong about BotLane. I had problems with his early play.

I have major issue with Spiffeh's play. It looks like he's just trying to move through the path of least resistance.

[MattP]

Ok ew says this and then doesn't even jump on the largest one? This is just a glorified excuse to not be contributing.

Like I get that Teridax not voting after saying we need a wagon is dumb, but it's not scummy. It's such an easy vote.

spiffeh, your vote's not doing much on teridax. move over to performer.

Ok but Teridax needs death.

VOTE: Performer

Clearly he didn't care much about it anyway considering he switched immediately.

[MattP]

Ftr I think Teridax is scummy for other reasons, it just looks like there's no depth to Spiffeh's plays.

[MattP]

This is Spiffeh's voting history over 20 pages and every case he's made:

I bet Ank was chatting in his scum chat outside his hydra and that's how he slipped. Wagon pls

VOTE: BotLane

@Kthx- What do you think about Spif's suspicions?

Nervous?

In case it wasn't obvious my vote wasn't entirely serious. It became more serious after BotLane asked someone else what they thought of my push on them. This came off as self-conscious and insecure. So I'll keep my vote for now.

He voted BotLane and said the vote became legitimate at this point.

I don't like that in post 98 Peregrine ignores the relevant discussion to comment on something that is pretty much pointless.

VOTE: Peregrine

This is the only time he references a scumread on PV the entirety of the game (despite providing a reads list now)

I agree with Heartless about NS. I disliked the "confused onlooker" role he tried to take on to kind of acknowledge the situation but not commit one way about it which I find scummy. Idk if that makes sense but it does to me.

This is the only time he references a scumread on NS the entirety of the game (despite providing a reads list now)

Ok yeah

VOTE: davesaz

Btw I think RR has obvtowned at this point and the fact that they have the most votes is stupid.

Votes dave. This is the only time he references a scumread on dave the entirety of the game (despite providing a reads list now)

What are your strongest scumreads?

Performer, Teridax, maybe MonkeyMan (although someone said earlier that they expect shitposts from him?). I'm scum reading d3x head of Botlane but the Ank head seems business as usual so idk about that one.

These are Spiffeh's current scumreads. What happened to dave? What happened to Peregrine? What happened to NS? Peregrine and NS have barely provided any substance, where did those reads go? There's no story to his reads. The reads he does provide (all listed in this post) are so shallow

[MattP]

yeah...

the spiffeh attack isn't good either.

I cared for a moment how you felt because you're my strongest townread, but whatever, you'll change your mind.

[MattP]

I think your entrance is scummy Firebringer, you want to know why?

[MattP]

Why are you being so aggressive? You like just joined the game, I don't get your Pissed Off tone

[MattP]

Honestly Matt you were much more aggro in the DisneyUPick than this.
You are giving off scum tones on me bad.

I love how people try to always use incredibly outdated meta as talking points

Your reads provide no content for discussion if you post then bare bones and say it's gut. What are you even trying to accomplish?

[MattP]

Why wouldn't you want to hear his reason for scum reading you to progress your read on him?

Because it didn't seem like he had a serious read, that seemed like a reaction test.
I am not stupid.

I was going to say "gut" if you asked for my reason, but I do think your entrance into the game is at the very least useleas

[MattP]

Also who were you in disney?

[MattP]

It has nothing to do with disregarding your reads, they are useless because unless you provide some sort of understandable reasoning iit's not like you're going to persuade anyone to alter their own line of thinking. It's so clearly obvious that's what I meant, not that I meant people should not take your reads seriously.

[MattP]

It has nothing to do with disregarding your reads, they are useless because unless you provide some sort of understandable reasoning iit's not like you're going to persuade anyone to alter their own line of thinking. It's so clearly obvious that's what I meant, not that I meant people should not take your reads seriously.

I have had this argument before, I don't care to go into detail at this moment for any of my reads.

You were not obvious in your meaning.

I literally explained my feelings in detail in 519

Your reads provide no content for discussion if you post them bare bones and say it's gut. What are you even trying to accomplish?

and then summarized it in 520 less descriptively by saying your reads are useless - you quoted both posts in your response so you obviously didn't miss it

[MattP]

I don't think that game is outdated maybe that's because i've played like one since then

For some reason I thought it was much longer ago - time moves a lot slower in the medical school universe

[MattP]

@Heartless, I'm not going to quote you because your post is too long

In regards to you saying my points in my catchup post are innocuous and not-huge-deals, the point I was making is that there were OTHER more-important things about players that bothered me of greater magnitude than a lot of the things I posted, but there was no point in just reiterating something someone else said prior to my replace-in. The only reason to point things out is either to draw attention to them to cause wagons (which is pointless considering ppl have already drawn attention to these things, the game is short so there's no point of bringing them back up when they happened RL days ago, and a lot of people have similar reads to me so what's the point of harping on earlier mentioned points) or to demonstrate my reasoning so people believe I'm genuine. The latter is not something I even considered doing when catching up - if you have issue with my reads and want me to explain them to get a better sense of ME, then I will gladly do so.

The only people I thought were not getting enough attention during my catchup were Spiffeh and BotLane - I didn't like BotLane's entrance into the game since I believe his asking Kthx to rate several things from 1-10 read weird and I'm familiar with Ank and do not like his play here. For the former, I'm actively pursuing. For the latter, I have no interest in doing so right now.

This point about the timing of the ika comment is bunk and it's really just an artifact of how a conversation between twenty people is going to go. Of course there's going to be a lot of conversations going on that you're not directly involved in at a particular time. There's nothing particularly sinister about Reasonably Rational jumping in on another conversation. There's also nothing particularly sinister about the whole "direct engagement" issue either. The way I see it, it's more of a playstyle difference than anything.

You are excusing people for inconsistent or untimely behavior (Spiffeh, RR) by saying the game is hectic and we should expect inconsistency rather than just letting people respond on their own.

The last two points are more addressing perceived flaws in fundamental scumhunting principles.

^That's fine? I never said every point in my catchup post was supposed to be scumhunting. I just posted things that I felt were relevant. Neither of my two points I made there were inherently scummy - one was call someone out on bad logic to see how they would reply - one was me genuinely telling a townread I think their logic is less than useful.

From what he's said about us, there's a pretty reasonable expectation he should be on our wavelength:

For the record, there is a dissonance between you bringing up legitimate questioning I wanted to VS. us having similar overall interpretations of play throughout a 20 page game. We are for the majority on the same wavelength with some disagreement. I'm pushing Spiffeh because he had received no attention up to this point and noone else seemed to think he was scum. I felt it was useful to pursue that and engage that player over others when we had over 15 days left of the day phase.

Regarding Spiffeh, his thoughts processes are incredibly peripheral and he feels disengaged. This is not what I expect of his play.

He's not trying to coordinate his vote with ours to wagon a common scumread though. He also apparently has absolutely nothing to say about Performer, the person we're voting and someone who Antihero posted a case on.

Just because our votes are dissonant the moment I enter the game doesn't mean I'm unwilling to coordinate with you as the game progresses I literally just joined a game where you all have been in continuous play and for where you are in the game there has been a fluid progression. I had to catch up 20 pages and then take the bullet points I developed during that catchup and hit them during my entry. How do you expect my entrance into the game to be "coordinated" with your play, when I have the added responsibility of "catching up"?

I think Performer is scummy, for the record. Regardless of him not even being a leading wagon when I replaced in, there was the added fact that he had

already

received pressure whereas Spiffeh had not. Just voting Performer for reasons already mentioned would have been a waste of my time during my replace-in.

[MattP]

@RR - Scum don't always have daytalk in large themes. Sometimes they inherently do, sometimes not, and sometimes they have a role that allows daytalk as long as the role exists

[MattP]

I'm looking into my crystal ball and I foresee 5 pages of lengthy back-and-forth TvT arguing that disengages everyone else from the game

[MattP]

First off, I'm not trying to be rude to you. I'm sorry if my tone seems that way.

[MattP]

they already did respond on their own. but even if they didn't, the case just sucked. people just lose interest in reads, that's how larges go. fuck, look at what happened w/ me and my bpc read in this game.

here, let's just get to the goddamn bottom of it once and for all. why would spiffeh letting go of reads scummy? just at the most basic level?

It's more so that I don't think Spiffeh is actually THINKING this game, which goes along with his posts lacking any content and which goes along with him forgetting his prior reads. I think if he was legitimately putting thought into the game he wouldn't be having inconsistencies in his reads. Both his lack of much content and his inconsistencies make me think he is not thinking about the game, as in not putting effort into scumhunting - that is NOT what I would expect of town-Spiffeh

[MattP]

they already did respond on their own. but even if they didn't, the case just sucked. people just lose interest in reads, that's how larges go. fuck, look at what happened w/ me and my bpc read in this game.

here, let's just get to the goddamn bottom of it once and for all. why would spiffeh letting go of reads scummy? just at the most basic level?

It's more so that I don't think Spiffeh is actually THINKING this game, which goes along with his posts lacking any content and which goes along with him forgetting his prior reads. I think if he was legitimately putting thought into the game he wouldn't be having inconsistencies in his reads. Both his lack of much content and his inconsistencies make me think he is not thinking about the game, as in not putting effort into scumhunting - that is NOT what I would expect of town-Spiffeh

you think spiffeh's posts lack content...?

i don't agree with that

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... ct[]=26341

This simply isn't anything comparable to his level of engagement as town. Prior to my pushing he had like 16 posts over 20 pages, almost all very short with minimal to no pushing on other players. That's not like Spiffeh.

Even in a vacuum, his play just in this game is so effortless. I guess we just don't agree right now.

[MattP]

VOTE: Performer

[MattP]

Vote: Performer

I hate it when people replace out for how other people are acting in a game. Pretty worthless reason for replacing out.

So i should jsut be apathetic and prod doge allthe time cus i dont want to speak in the potenatialy toxic envirometn?

Maybe I'm missing something but I don't think there's anything toxic about the game right now?

[MattP]

I get what you meant now carry on

[MattP]

unvote

pedit: that was what I didnt want

[MattP]

Like seriously? That was so dumb

[MattP]

We had ample time left

[MattP]

We had ample time left

To what get apathy?

Things have been happening, it's not like the thread has gone stale

[MattP]

I don't think you really had any fun but yw

[MattP]

I don't think you really had any fun but yw

eh. Thanks Matt

<3

[MattP]

What's the point of critiquing it, he's already been lynched

[MattP]

who shoots a bulletproof enough times for them to need a backup?

Actually good pt

[MattP]

No he's just coasted and got out of pressure bc of an insanely early hammer

[MattP]

VOTE: Teridax

[MattP]

Aw yay we're friends

[MattP]

Also I agree with your changes

[MattP]

The Maxous kill makes RR definitely look worse

Maxous seems especially like a scum kill based entirely off his reads.

[MattP]

Yeah but you also thought performer was scum and they kept you alive despite you both being equally townreading

You're more vocal, they could have chosen to kill you to take away that voice from town, but they killed Maxous, the quieter universal townread with only one other consistent scumread other than performer - RR

[MattP]

The Maxous kill makes RR definitely look worse

Maxous seems especially like a scum kill based entirely off his reads.

I don't know about that, he was also quite obvious town and a less likely protection target than Heartless or myself.

Yeah the other explanation is he was an unlikely protection

Either way let's wagon Teridax so he does something

[MattP]

I think ika makes sense as a vig for his 3p stuff

[MattP]

What's wrong with rationalizing why Maxous was the scum kill rather than Heartless

[MattP]

You didn't even read the stuff that happened after your replace? >.>

[MattP]

I find it amusing how opposed you are to a 4 person wagon on a game-long lurker

[MattP]

Yeah there's nothing good in this post

[MattP]

I agree with dave-town

[MattP]

Prolly my most controversial read at this point in time is that Dave looks to be Town right now.

Why would any read be controversial at the start of day 2? Day one is crapshoot wherein we got lucky. Day two just started, and you are tossing out reads without any reasons. Did you pick up the scum rag and start rubbing all over yourself on purpose?

You're really nitpicking whether something is "controversial" and using that to validate a scumread?

[MattP]

Like even if he's wrong about a read being controversial, how is it scummy?

[MattP]

I actually am thinking about it and am second-guessing a vedith push right now for a reason I don't really think is productive to expand on

[MattP]

But if he continues to be bad throughout the day I would consider it later. Just right now I don't want to pursue it

[MattP]

@Heartless: noted

My phone is dying so I don't have time to read or digest Teridaxs post. I'll be on later.

[MattP]

It's irritating when replacements expect current players to catch them up, as if it's our responsibility to put in extra work when someone replaces out

You agreed to replace in, take on the effort associated with that. Why is it our job to do that

[MattP]

Every replacement so far has bit the bullet and caught up

[MattP]

(Also sorry for being MIA, I've been at a conference. Coming home now, I'll be catching up tomorrow)

[MattP]

Lol

[MattP]

Yep still very content with Teri wagon after those recent posts

[MattP]

Prolly my most controversial read at this point in time is that Dave looks to be Town right now.

Why would any read be controversial at the start of day 2? Day one is crapshoot wherein we got lucky. Day two just started, and you are tossing out reads without any reasons. Did you pick up the scum rag and start rubbing all over yourself on purpose?

You're really nitpicking whether something is "controversial" and using that to validate a scumread?

Like even if he's wrong about a read being controversial, how is it scummy?

Also never got a response to this from RR

[MattP]

im going to restate my assertion that this catch up crap is bad.

asso inserting peoples names into posts it to make them look scummy is bad.

Since I dont know who thia head is and theyre doing that obnoxious as shit catchup-post-by-post and I may have uneesolved feelings for mastin this should be roped with extreme iritation

It's mastin

Glad to know you're town pisskop

[MattP]

I don't admittedly like how adbest Vedith has been from the game since his wagon formed

[MattP]

absent*

[MattP]

There's a 70% chance that any 4 players contain at least 1 scum

[MattP]

What are people's meta on mastin? I'd like to say Town just for being so firm in there reads

Mastin does it regardless of alignment.

I'm not an expert on Mastin, but I don't like his play here compared to his town play.

[MattP]

I'm not an expert on Mastin, but I don't like [HER] play here compared to [HER] town play.

Bluntly, Matt, you don't know me worth a damn. Never did. Certainly don't now, after I've continued playing games and you've not been in them.

This IS my townplay now. Through and through.

First off, I'm sorry for mis-identifying. I know you identify as she/her, I will try to make more of an effort to keep that in mind.

[MattP]

Second, regardless of my opinion on you I'm just going to pursue something more fruitful.

VOTE: Reasonably Rational

That was a pretty awful claim.

While you're busy being bored in the dead thread, you should re-consider what I said about gut. If you play mafia based upon "gut" that you can't back up with something substantive, you are essentially playing a game based upon your bowels as they randomly digest food and produce feces. I mean ... you can disagree all you want, but if "gut feeling" has any meaning, it can only be one of two things, rationally:

1.) You are picking up on a situation being similar enough to a prior bad situation that your brain tells various glands to start releasing chemicals into your system as part of the fight or flight response. That's useless "gut feeling" in mafia because what happened in previous games and the situations therein can have no actual direct effect or impact upon whatever the current game is. Any similarity is coincidental and responding to that sort of gut feeling is essentially responding to pure chance. You might as well just flip a coin; you'll be just as successful.

2.) The other thing that "gut feeling" can be is your brain recognizing something that you aren't fully consciously aware of. When this happens, then you have something useful. Put in a little time and you can generally find out what was giving you that "gut feeling" and then voila, you have something substantive you can use to convince people you found scum other than the absurdly useless "my bowels say so".

RR says it is an awful claim post-lynch of Performer and then explains to performer how to improve his play as if performer is town.

RR saying the claim is awful, and the dissonance of that with everything following, really makes it look like he knew Performer was already scum and made an error by including his judgment of Performer's claim with his pretending to treat Performer as unflipped town.

Combined with RR's general play and Maxous's lynch, I feel much more confidant about this than Vedith or Teridax.

[MattP]

What are people's meta on mastin? I'd like to say Town just for being so firm in there reads

Mastin does it regardless of alignment.

I'm not an expert on Mastin, but I don't like his play here compared to his town play.

ive never seen mastin be confscum before. why is this play different?

I havent read anything yet but congrats on wagoning someone for not posting

vote: bp

so you took a snark vote and decided to quote a not-mod votecount and edit it. . .

w.e. Ive already made up my mind about your play.

Huh? I don't understand what you're saying

[MattP]

lol.

matt's townreading me and scumreading mastin and Im not sure I like it.

unvote

I'm townreading you because I largely remember your tone from the last time I've played with you

I don't get why you dislike me scumreading Mastin?

[MattP]

I honestly think I got ahead of myself on mastin and started tunneling. I'm taking a step back right now.

[MattP]

Mastin does long-winded WIFOMy self-reflecting posts every opportunity she gets, it means nothing

[MattP]

okay. is this you trying to get a read on her?

No? I'm just pointing out to anyone not familiar with her play that this is something she does a lot.

[MattP]

Also 862 is just mean

[MattP]

Yes

[MattP]

To be absolutely fair, I think Performer's interactions with Vedith are much less incriminating than Performer's interactions with RR.

I will post some stuff shortly. I actually at a deeper glance am pretty confidant RR will flip scum.

[MattP]

Not feeling the sugar on the Reas wagon.

This is performer's only reference to RR's wagon despite RR's wagon being the first big thing to happen in the game.

Ved's obvtown to me

@Heart nothing else stood out upon a skim when I replaced in. Ved's posts stood out when I first replaced in, as town.

These two posts refer to Ved. I don't know what to derive from these or from Performer's final reads list. Ved was never a wagon yesterday so Performer could have all the fun he wanted WIFOMing there. I think the most telling thing is that Performer never took advantage of the RR wagon.

I've been around and following the game, but I've been sick the last couple days and just didn't feel like diving into any sort of discussion, since

prior to Performers terrible and nonsensical post

there was little said by anyone that seemed like it might be alignment indicative, and so it would have taken more work than I felt up to amidst the coughing to actually get anything done.. Someone did say something that piqued my interest, essentially jumping on someone else for asking a question which they didn't view as having an answer which would help sort people, while not jumping on ika for asking a similar question, which was interesting to me, but I skimmed through the last few pages and can't find the post, so I have no idea who said it, about who.

Anyways, I'm here now, engage with me? If there's anything you'd like me to comment on specifically, I will.

-Cerb

This is RR's first mention of Performer. Note that RR never votes Performer the entirety of yesterday. He nullscum reads Performer and ends on Firebringer. After Performer is lynched we see two mentions of RR calling Performer's claim absurd and awful:

Spoiler:

That was a pretty awful claim. While you're busy being bored in the dead thread, you should re-consider what I said about gut. If you play mafia based upon "gut" that you can't back up with something substantive, you are essentially playing a game based upon your bowels as they randomly digest food and produce feces. I mean ... you can disagree all you want, but if "gut feeling" has any meaning, it can only be one of two things, rationally:

1.) You are picking up on a situation being similar enough to a prior bad situation that your brain tells various glands to start releasing chemicals into your system as part of the fight or flight response. That's useless "gut feeling" in mafia because what happened in previous games and the situations therein can have no actual direct effect or impact upon whatever the current game is. Any similarity is coincidental and responding to that sort of gut feeling is essentially responding to pure chance. You might as well just flip a coin; you'll be just as successful.

2.) The other thing that "gut feeling" can be is your brain recognizing something that you aren't fully consciously aware of. When this happens, then you have something useful. Put in a little time and you can generally find out what was giving you that "gut feeling" and then voila, you have something substantive you can use to convince people you found scum other than the absurdly useless "my bowels say so".


Also, I have a personal boner for Cephrir. First person with join date older than a year on this site that I've met who actually realizes that VCA is a pile of shit and completely worthless.

I'm kind of morbidly curious about this flip. I don't think I've seen a wagon with less resistance ever ... not even a day one wagon. That inactivity and, to use the parlance, "Dat claim tho", are certainly bad but it's like someone greased him up and sent him down the chute or something. No resistance whatsoever. I've noticed that such things are usually bad.


Prediction: The claim seems like a lie. Probably scum.
Reaction: Irritated at Ika for quick hammering, but even if he's wrong, at least we'll be out of day one. Hooray!?

@PV - Before you see the flip: You really going to push ika if performer is scum?

With Love,
Drixx

@PV - Before you see the flip: You really going to push ika if performer is scum?

So you think scum Ika wouldn't hammer a buddy?

Why not? Performer picked up votes like there was a cop guilty on him, and then made an absurd role claim. If I were scum on a team with performer, I would have zero qualms whatsoever hammering. I'm not ika so I would have probably given intent before doing it, though.

I think it's bizarre that Performer calls the claim awful and then coaches Performer's townplay. The only reason to derive for RR thinkings it's awful is that the claim is an unbelievable claim (that is what people like Cephrir said yesterday, and Cephrir also treated Performer like a scum lynch following), and RR thinking that is entirely at odds with how he coaches Performer following his lynch. I can't wrap my head around RR's last two posts yesterday.

RR never votes Performer, and vice-versa. They held nullscum and nulltown reads on each other, respectively.

[MattP]

VOTE: RR

Really? I didn't think matts case on RR was that strong actually.

There's like really so little redeeming about RR's play in general

pedit: yeah exactly

[MattP]

I think my 10000th game post was in this game

Doesn't that mean you auto win the game?

BTW sheeping Heartless who is sheeping Cephrir they are both awesome sauce town
VOTE: Reasonably Rational

What am I, chopped meat?

[MattP]

Can you like ... go and actually read up on probability and how it actually works, and how it applies to game theory and decision theory? Please? I'll even provide the links. I'm not even trying to say anything about the game here. It just seriously hurts to see posts like this. We haven't played together before and you don't know me, but you seem to have a decent reputation, so I wonder what you would be like if you got rid of awful cognitive biases.

Wait first off before I even read anything else you've said, this is hilarious. I literally used statistical probability based on chance using an expected 5-person scum team.

[MattP]

Maxous is literally the last person a scum us would lynch.

You and mastin both!

[MattP]

You should probably do that with us too. We're objectively terrible at early game. If you still think we're not productive in the mid game, you should lynch us. Right now you would just cost the town our utility because you don't know us or how we operate. That's a fairly bad play, no matter whether you actually legitimately think we're scum or whether you're a scumbutt thinking you can push a wagon on us. Check out our Steven Universe game's hydra PT if you want a little insight into us. We start slow and pick up steam.

A town you probably also wants to see what happens when scum tries to kill us. It should be amusing.

My feelings on you are unrelated to my feelings on Mastin. And no, a "town me" isn't interested in keeping you around with the purpose of "seeing what happens when scum tries to kill us. It should be amusing.

[MattP]

Speaking of bad at the game though ... calling people known for having poor early play due to their approach to the game scum for having started out as poorly as every other game is actually pretty objectively bad. Perhaps we can help one another?

I've never played with you before and I didn't research your meta during to or prior to the game. You're saying I'm "bad at the game" because I don't know your meta. This is just so bizarre.

[MattP]

AND you're saying I'm bad at the game because I'm not excusing your crappy early play on the basis that I should *somehow know* you always play crappy early on. Think about how ridiculous that is for a second.

[MattP]

Can you like ... go and actually read up on probability and how it actually works, and how it applies to game theory and decision theory? Please? I'll even provide the links. I'm not even trying to say anything about the game here. It just seriously hurts to see posts like this. We haven't played together before and you don't know me, but you seem to have a decent reputation, so I wonder what you would be like if you got rid of awful cognitive biases.

That is actually how probability works. I think you are misreading matt's post here.

Picking nits is probably a waste of both our times; however, there's a really obvious problem to any math about probability at the moment, and I cannot possibly be the only one who picked up on it.

In order to properly discern the probability of a given thing being the case, what information do you need?

Do we have that information?

I think my point should be sufficiently made now, yes?


Love and cookies (fresh from the oven chewy chocolate chip),
Drixx

I think the dumbest and cheapest shot anyone can make ever in mafia is to call out people for making completely rational assumptions about game design.

There's a possibility I'm wrong about the setup, I obviously know that. Do I need to expressly state in every setup-based post that I'm making an assumption so that these sorts of conversations don't have to happen? Do I even need to point out assumptions for incredibly innocuous posts like the one you've called out now?

[MattP]

Well yeah. Mastin isn't stupid either. Why on earth kill someone who:

1.) Isn't saying much or driving the game at all
2.) Is pretty much town read by anyone who mentions them
3.) Has expressed a scum read on us in one of his few posts

It doesn't make rational sense.

It makes complete sense to kill a universal townread. It makes complete sense to kill someone that's firm on you being scum.

Scum literally kill threats ALL THE TIME. Specifically because the sort of WIFOMy nonsense you and Mastin are spewing prevents any reasonable discussion about NK spec so that scum can avoid incrimination for those NKs. It's much more dangerous to leave dangerous people in the game than to try to brush off NK spec when WIFOM is so easy.

I love how everyone is insulting Maxous's presense or ability in the game when clearly his few words yesterday were powerful, he had a lot of potential to take a front seat in leading discussion as the game progressed, he was a low-probability protection, and

scum probably did kill him so clearly he's was somehow rationalized to be a good scum kill

You just like want us to disregard the NK or assume incompetent people made the kill.

[MattP]

Simple, you would do it for townie points.

This. It's like so damn obvious.

[MattP]

Clearly the scum team went and actually looked at what we did in SU

Let me stop you there because I'd bet hundreds of dollars this didn't happen even if we first assume you are town.

^

I can't even right now

[MattP]

Drixxs point was that we don't know how many scum there are, so it's impossible to give correct probabilistic estimates. Anything you say is either misleading because you are making assumptions(if you don't state the assumptions that go along with your assertion, or it's perfectly accurate(assuming correct math) because you are scum and know how large your team is.

In a 20p game it's much more logical to assume 5 scum supposing no third parties

Next time I'll spoon-feed you info over whether or not I'm basing setup spec on assumptions or insider knowledge

[MattP]

Cephrir is like the calculated sassy person you want to bring with you everywhere

[MattP]

I don't think kill data should ever be disregarded. It's interesting that you seem so sure that scum killed Maxous and not Ika. I suspect that is the case, but I see only downsides to assuming it is a certainty.

You have great points about scum teams eliminating threats, but you're ignoring what I said and why I said it. Maxous would not have been our kill choice. He was obviously someone's kill choice however. You and pisskop assert that he's a very strong player, but arguing that we would have killed him for meta reasons fails for the same reason that me assuming you would know anything about us fails. There are people in this game who have played several games with the two of us individually and also with us as a hydra who I would view as much bigger threats. Just because we personally wouldn't have chosen to kill him doesn't make him not dead, and it certainly doesn't make it okay to assume knowing why he was killed.

I'm not sure, I would just be willing to bet on it.

So then great, I don't care about who you say your kill choice would be though. And I never said anything about meta - I've never played with Maxous before, I can simply tell from this game he is good. And if I were you-scum, I would want him out of the game. I don't care if you say that you wouldn't. He objectively called you scum consistently throughout day phase. He was a universal townread. He was cooperative with others and likable. That is what I have to work with here.

[MattP]

Cephrir is like the calculated sassy person you want to bring with you everywhere

you know....

i'm actually thinking max was a pr snipe

Why?

[MattP]

I actually also don't particularly care for LQ

Which is the one irksome thing for me right now wrt the RR wagon

[MattP]

SOLD!

VOTE: Vedith

What sold you?

[MattP]

I actually am thinking about it and am second-guessing a vedith push right now for a reason I don't really think is productive to expand on

he's used "it's stupid to vote me" line as scum before so no,

no soft-claimy for him.

hmm.

I actually liked both of those posts before this.

What does this mean?

Mastin does long-winded WIFOMy self-reflecting posts every opportunity she gets, it means nothing

ew

Why?

MM can be in my tentative Scum reads right now.

ewwwwww

Whyyyyyy?

[MattP]

LQ is not lynchbait

[MattP]

Can heartless/ceph/me just start a townbloc

[MattP]

Herry and PV could potentially be invited if they did more

[MattP]

RR is lynchbait. That doesn't mean he's not scum

[MattP]

Like your narrative this game is so bizarre LQ, you were just voting RR for what a lot of other people have found scummy

[MattP]

1.) Like your narrative this game is so bizarre LQ, 2.) you were just voting RR for what a lot of other people have found scummy

2.) People found my reasons for voting RR Scummy or my reasons for voting RR made RR look Scummy?

Neither. I'm saying you were just voting RR because you agreed with what a lot of other people have found scummy about RR

What makes you or anyone else different than me in regards to their RR pushing?

[MattP]

Like Vedith is certainly lynchbait too and here is your flip back to him

SOLD!

VOTE: Vedith

[MattP]

Based on a very uncompelling push by Herry (not that I think Herry is scum, I just think his reasoning shouldn't have convinced anyone)

[MattP]

going after RR with cephrir taking the lead

Lol, I was the first person to vote RR

[MattP]

Being the first does not mean you are the most influential person on that push, but that is a good point.

I'm definitely taking the lead

I'm not at all being coy about my feelings with RR. Sometimes Ceph gets to points before I do and therefore directs the important questions to RR before I can, and so then I don't bother to harp, but I think we are both taking equal front-row seats to the RR push

[MattP]

Anyway, I got what I wanted out of this. I think there's a low chance of you being scum

[MattP]

are you only interested in RR right now? I take it you're not just pushing a wagon?

I have other opinions.

[MattP]

Kthx is town
I think MM is town but I'm not nearly as confident

[MattP]

Why do I need to talk about players I'm townreading if they're not being wagoned?

Why do I need to talk about other lesser scumreads if I think RR is the best wagon to pursue at this moment? It would just distract from what I want to be happening

right now

When I pushed Spiffeh I wasn't talking about my other scumreads in excess. Same for when I was pushing Teridax. Same now. That's the right way to play a push.

[MattP]

And I don't care about divulging you in all my reads just so you can get a better read of me. I'm clearly not going to be wagoned today so I have no reason to go down a rabbit hole with you when I want to be focusing on RR.

[MattP]

Lol

[MattP]

-_____-

Please tell me this is directed at MM

[MattP]

Hey MattP: please correct me if I'm wrong here. The crux of your case on us is you find our interactions with the performer slot to be suspect. You find it implausible that town us would note that performers entrance was very bad and not vote him. You also find it suspect that we called his claim terrible, and then proceeded to give him advice about playstyle that you believe we would only give to someone who we believed was town. There's also NKA leading you to believe one of Maxous/Ika is a kill we would support, and VCA indicating that we were attempting to support the counterwagon to performer. Is that correct? You're pointing out what you believe to be two points of contradiction in our actions, and some nka and vca. If there's something more to this let me know. I'll address all those points once I'm certain I understand your perspective properly. And, just to confirm, you have never played with either Drixx or myself, correct?

-Cerb

-Cerb

I also think a lot of your pushes have been grossly melodramatic. I pointed one out and then quoted it to merit a response and I never got one. There are others that I haven't pointed out. I will gladly point those out as well - though others, I believe, already have to some degree.

But yes, those are all very true things I feel

[MattP]

tunnel vision

I'm not tunneling, I've been jumping I think a healthy amount from one push to another. I voted Spiffeh and Performer yesterday. I voted Teridax and RR so far today. I'm sorting people out, not tunneling.

[MattP]

You said you were the first person who has voted RR... I haven't checked this, but I assume you are talking about this game day only? If so, I find it pretty Sus that you are manipulating the truth of the matter since RR had a lot of pressure put on them Day 1 which then continues on Day 2. I am NOT sold on a town read on you and you are not helping me sort you at all. If you haven't noticed, I have answered most everything when a question has been directed toward me to help people sort me and lets be honest here, I really should not have to go into the depth that I have gone to explain myself, but I have because I have nothing to hide as Town. I honestly do NOT like it when people get on their high horse and think they don't have to explain themselves simply because they think they are a better player than the one who is asking them things.

I was speaking strictly about today. Today the pressure was on Vedith. I didn't

need

to bring RR back up to conversation, I actively chose to. If I hadn't today would be something else right now. Whether good or bad it doesn't matter, my point is I DID lead an RR wagon because I was the one that started it up today. Maybe he's town and I'm wrong, I'm not saying I'm amazing or something, I'm just saying you're wrong about me just blindly following Ceph

I never once said I was better than you. That has nothing to do with the reasoning I clearly laid out for why I'm not indulging you in my reads.

[MattP]

And while I'm at it, Cephrir has pretty much done nothing but give me a "wut?" at many different occasions which were not needed to be said.

And I am NOT cool with a Matt/Cephrir/heartless town block because honestly I think the only one who really belongs in that category is Harry right now.

Cephrir is doing things, his signal to noise ratio is just much lower than a lot of other peoples.

[MattP]

MattP clearly has information he is not divulging.

You mean my

opinions

? You haven't interacted with me a single time this game and you haven't engaged me in any of the reads I've laid out so far. Why do you suddenly care so much about my reads now?

[MattP]

tunnel vision

I'm not tunneling, I've been jumping I think a healthy amount from one push to another. I voted Spiffeh and Performer yesterday. I voted Teridax and RR so far today. I'm sorting people out, not tunneling.

This is manipulative and strips about 95% of what I said in my previous post, into a summery that was not even my main point which you fail to address.

If you could just maybe answer those questions I had for you earlier, I think that would go over quite well.

PEdit: Ok, so you want to finally answer some questions. Good. Please, feel free to answer my questions with an answer and not a questions mark for "why should I?"

When people post incredibly long posts I'm going to respond to one "paragraph" at a time. I don't want to have to break the post into a bunch of mini quotes. That was the most relevant portion of your first paragraph and completely painted your tone of that paragraph. It's based on a flawed principle so I called out it. If you have a problem with me denying I'm tunnel visioning please go ahead and argue it

Pedit: I'm literally NOT going to answer. The more you try to play bad cop about it the more annoyed I get and the less I want to play along. I explained why it's protown in my opinion to not provide reads. If you have a problem then tough.

[MattP]

Its implied, and it doesn't take a brain surgeon or biochemist to figure that out.

You're still being manipulative as shit and I see through that shit a mile away. I'm not an idiot.

Sorry you think I have a mentality that I literally don't have.

[MattP]

Its implied, and it doesn't take a brain surgeon or biochemist to figure that out.

You're still being manipulative as shit and I see through that shit a mile away. I'm not an idiot.

Sorry you think I have a mentality that I literally don't have.

K, enlighten me. What mentality do you think I am assuming of you?

You outright said I think I'm better than you. I said I'm not. You said "it doesn't take a brain surgeon or biochemist to figure that out."

I know MattP to be a strong player, so I am suspicious when he says something like he doesn't want to give his reads, or that "I'm not going to be wagoned today." Arrogance does not help the town, so at this point I have a scum read on him.

I'm not trying to be arrogant, but I'm certainly not going to be coy or ignorant. Most vocal players believes I'm town and it would be bizarre if I saw an abrupt change to that.

[MattP]

Why on earth is there a fast wagon building on Teridax?

To echo PV, this was incredibly bizarre.

I pushed RR about this at daystart and I didn't like his answers.

[MattP]

bpc is town because of performer's bizarre actions towards him, and incidentally he never even delivered the reasons he promised herry

This is actually uncanny

[MattP]

Yeah, so performer is scum too

This game feels extremely easy

Thank god we have you here then to make it so easy.

Thank god we have you were to sass me about it!

Hey, I was being serious...

Going back, what did you mean by this Vedith?

[MattP]

Who's laughing now that LQ is obvtown, heartless? :p

PV seems town, but not like town-PV, so I am going to just sort of whisk him away to the place in my brain where I keep things that I don't need to think about right now.

We're on the ~~SAME PAGE~~

[MattP]

Tbf twie is a meaniehead

[MattP]

#teampoohpoohdoodyheads

[MattP]

I can show you SO MANY games where kanyeknowsbest, or bbmolla, and I were twinsies all game and we were both town

And the buddying we did in those games was an order of magnitude greater than what you're seeing here

[MattP]

Yeah, so performer is scum too

This game feels extremely easy

Thank god we have you here then to make it so easy.

Thank god we have you were to sass me about it!

Hey, I was being serious...

Going back, what did you mean by this Vedith?

I think it's really funny Vedith said this and then didn't vote any of Ceph's scumreads until Ved voted Performer way later in the day, immediately prior to Performer's lynch

[MattP]

I think it's really funny Vedith said this and then didn't vote any of Ceph's scumreads until Ved voted Performer way later in the day, immediately prior to Performer's lynch

Both were sarcasm... I'm pretty sure Ceph actually grasped that.
I have no interest in following over confident players.

k

[MattP]

I concur with everyone

[MattP]

I concur with everyone

Uniformly distributed?

Everyone so far up to this point in the game I agree with

[MattP]

I bet I could post 8 players right now that contain all the scum

[MattP]

Planning your bussing already, eh?

Oh how I've missed you

[MattP]

If you can do it in 6 names I will be impressed.

Then start doing more things!

[MattP]

I don't get what that has anything to do with the post of mine you quoted.

I want to hear your six names.

My point is that you're in my eight names.

[MattP]

Ok then you still have seven chances.

But I still want to see them.

Ok but only if you make an 8-person guess

[MattP]

Hahahahahahahaha

[MattP]

Scum here:

BotLane (hydra of Ankamius and d3x)
pisskop replaces TriforceP
Reasonably Rational (hydra of Drixx and Cerberus v666)
Spiffeh
Teridax (hydra of mastin2 and vezokpiraka)
TheWayItEnds
Vedith

If not then

:
Monkeyman576

Very positive town:

Firebringer
Harry Panther
davesaz
PeregrineV

Would bet game on being town:

Cephrir
Heartless
Lickety
Kthxbye

[MattP]

I would move Teridax to the same category as MM at this point actually. So I would expect all the scum to be in:

BotLane (hydra of Ankamius and d3x)
pisskop replaces TriforceP
Reasonably Rational (hydra of Drixx and Cerberus v666)
Spiffeh
TheWayItEnds
Vedith

[MattP]

Can you explain the kthx town read?

I know them in RL, for like 10 years. It would be like reading my mother in a game of mafia.

[MattP]

NEway. Those say hydra, not replacement. Same difference, it shows

why

he's scumreading them; for what qualities.

There's a 10% chance based on random chance that all three hydras would land in my scumreads if 8/16 are townreads and 8/16 are scumreads

That's not statistically significant

[MattP]

Yeah part of what I'm doing is waiting for the post RR has promised me. That's where I want to be right now anyway.

[MattP]

I think it's scummy that you didn't format your post correctly twie

[MattP]

Matts post was bad because it came after the "I should rethink my tunnel on mastin" post, and then he moves straight into meh dont bother reading into those last posts that I just reconsidered my mastin read because of.
Especially since that looked like town mastin posting.

That's not what happened? I reconsidered my vote on mastin for posts prior to his WIFOM post. The WIFOM post he made I said should be disregarded because he does that as both alignments, often.

[MattP]

Tbf twie is a meaniehead

This is true but like... not this game really?

Or do you just mean in general?

You just give me a meaniehead vibe, call it intuition!

[MattP]

I honestly think I got ahead of myself on mastin and started tunneling. I'm taking a step back right now.

Like I literally posted this BEFORE Mastin's WIFOM post. How can you even

try

to relate the two?

Mastin objectively does WIFOM long-winded posts about how he would do things as scum in like every game he plays in. Ask anyone that has experience with him.

[MattP]

866 was not in response to pisskop, it was in response to Mastin's 862.

[MattP]

Ok I get the misunderstanding now from both you and pisskop. I was confused when pisskop posted 872 in response to my 866, because my 866 had nothing to do with my dialogue with pisskop - it was in reference to 862

okay. is this you trying to get a read on her?

No? I'm just pointing out to anyone not familiar with her play that this is something she does a lot.

Also 862 is just mean

[MattP]

What in 862 required a response?

Like, why specifically was it required for you to tell everyone to ignore that post?

Because people who have never played with mastin before could go, "wow look at that huge post, mastin is clearly passionate about this" and have it affect their read of him, when I wanted people to know he does it all the time and it should be disregarded? Like the answer to your question has already been provided.

[MattP]

This is why I will make sure you live.

Lel

[MattP]

ITT I watch mastin's reads slowly begin to mirror my own

[MattP]

Maxeous is dangerous to leave alive if you're scum. He's accurate and collected.

REALLY think this is scum, btw.

Really? Because of 974?

[MattP]

Also 862 is just mean

Don't see how. It's a perfectly-accurate assessment of how I'd view players if I was scum. The main difference being that, as scum, at least one of the names there would probably be a scumbuddy. But since I'm not actually scum, I don't know who the scum are, thus, I don't know who on the list wouldn't be an option.

862 is basically just a giant post that says "ika is

so

terrible I would kill ANYONE over him."

[MattP]

why the fuck is everyone drinking the koolaid on panther?

idgi

I'm now having serious doubts about panther because of that

[MattP]

It's funny because I know kthxbye so much better than you and that slot is 110% town

[MattP]

You're gonna have to NK me if you want that lynch to happen

[MattP]

I think that is a solid point Heartless

[MattP]

Besides, with all the lynches that are on the table, its beyond me why you'd try to add another one.

What is the lynches on the table aren't good enough for heartless? What if Heartless things they're stale?

Why do you think heartless is "adding another lynch to the table"?

[MattP]

What if*

[MattP]

emotions

Anti posted a reason, Idk how you think this is emotionally grounded

[MattP]

emotions

Anti posted a reason, Idk how you think this is emotionally grounded

Youre right,

a reason

. In a game open to subjective opinion. When he's voting me for those same festering little emotions.

Lol, it's not an opinion, Heartless's observation is objectively true. Firebringer said he doesn't get Performer-scum, asked for an explanation, and never responded to the explanation when given.

[MattP]

How is Performer scum?

How is Performer scum?

I'll repost Antihero's wall.

Spoiler:

am i just going to get another half-assed townread?

b/c if so, i'll gladly let my horses kick you in the face

what do you mean half-assed townread? wtf
Ved's obvtown to me

i didn't mean "the intensity of the read" when i said "half-assed." i meant it was for vague, craptacular, throw-away reasoning and just lazily tossed out there where it writhes impotently and uselessly

...and that's the adjective that best describes Post 310, btw

HALF

ASSED

half of it's ass and the other half is covered in shit.

you have (or at least appear to have) read the thread in some detail because you're referencing VERY SPECIFIC things people said ("Not seeing your point about a difference between “wagon and WAGON.” A wagon is a wagon.")

when it comes to MAJOR THINGS like why people have voted the bpc wagon (WHICH HAS BEEN TALKED ABOUT THREE GODDAMN TIMES AND REPEATED BY TTH FOR GOOD MEASURE), your thoughts are scattered to the fucking wind

that's because there's no thoughts to be had, and what you're actually doing is trying to find the way to best present it to where you look like you're following along and participating. you happen to be pretty bad at that.

and you're doing this instead of attempting to scumhunt.
because you're scum.

post

post

post

post

post

post

Doesn't look like flaking to me

[MattP]

Who would you consider 'on the table', Matt?

I don't know at this moment.

[MattP]

After rereading some things I again agree Firebringer is a bad lynch.

[MattP]

VOTE: HerryPanther

[MattP]

Votes on Pisskop are bad, he is town yo.

Yep probably

[MattP]

Ok let's just recognize there's actually nothing town about Harry and he's lurked all game, we made a mistake we need to atone for, and lets wagon him ty ty ty

[MattP]

Votes on Pisskop are bad, he is town yo.

I found another bad vote look!

VOTE: HerryPanther

It's so bizarre that people are so positive of a townread on Herry especially considering his play today has been so not stellar

[MattP]

Not as bizarre as your vote on him.

Lol

[MattP]

MattP, it's weird to move your vote off a wagon you're the driving force behind. What's up yo?

Well if it makes you feel better, this makes me feel better about you likely flipping scum.

[MattP]

I reread and I doubted my passing Harry so quickly as town. I thought it was weird people were universally townreading a player who isn't THAT town. I wanted pressure on him. We have over a week left of this day phase so why not direct my vote somewhere I think is more useful, it's not like my vote is going to cause his lynch this second. Why do you care so much, you clearly think I'm town and I unvoted you.

[MattP]

Short and simple, its because you get me and speak truth about how I play as town. There is little reason to bring up just how Town you think I am as Scum. You would not need to do that. I could see you saying I was Town as Scum, but the crazy amount of emphasis on it leads me to believe either 1 of 2 things are going on. You are finding I play a very similar Town game as yourself which you have stated many times and you may feel the desire to express that you have found a commonality with the way we both process information OR You still believe what you are saying and are using that to keep me around because you feel I will not be a driving force to catch Scum. I just can't believe you would be that much of an asshole to completely make the whole things up. There is little reason to do that if we were not teamed this game.

Wow, you're so weak

[MattP]

You literally just sigged someone complimenting you and then called them town because you can't believe they would be so vocal about you being town as scum.

I'm not trying to be mean when I say this, I'm trying to be helpful to you - your play so far has not been stellar and you're not a threat to get wagons going. Scum will have no problem having you wrapped around their finger because your reads are easily manipulated. Good scum want people like you on their side. Take more of an aggressive/skeptical stance than the one you're currently taking.

[MattP]

You're also not lynchbait so scum aren't going to push for your lynch. You're just an ideal buddying candidate for scum in the game.

[MattP]

Anyway, VOTE: ReasonablyRational

[MattP]

I feel pretty content with ending the convo here!

[MattP]

is that L-endtheday?

because I caj agree

It's L-3

Cephrir, Firebringer, PeregrineV, MonkeyMan576, Kthxbye, MattP

Also, if you agree then vote RR.

[MattP]

Anyway, VOTE: ReasonablyRational

K, so if you're wrong, what are you gunna do then?

I'll take up landscape painting.

[MattP]

MattP, did you get what you wanted out of moving your vote elsewhere? Also kinda curious if you ever bothered reading the post I made that you said you were waiting for, since you never actually said anything about it. Actually, I don't think anyone said anything about it except LQ. :p

-Cerb

No, I didn't get what I wanted.

I read your post, and your following posts, and they don't resolve my issues with your slot. I want you to claim.

[MattP]

Anyway, VOTE: ReasonablyRational

K, so if you're wrong, what are you gunna do then?

I'll take up landscape painting.

OK, so what about in the game?

Honestly I think you are just looking for excuses to get your dick hard so you can attempt to stick it in my ass.

Its clear your a jerk and were prolly a bully in middle school who never quite reached full maturity.

Aaaand now I'm never interacting with you for the rest of the game.

[MattP]

How would claiming resolve anything, since the basic issues you have with my slot are based on your misinterpretation of the motivation behind my slots actions?

Let's do some hypotheticals. I claim.vt, I claim doc, I claim cop, I claim some other PR, I claim something third party. How do each of those affect your read? I don't see any reason why my claim should affect your read, if you don't believe that the points you've made are valueless when applied to our play.

-Cerb

You've placed so much importance on your crumbing maybe it will considering you've placed so much importance on it? I guess not

[MattP]

Where did I place importance on my crumbing? I said it happened. That's about it.

-Cerb

You've brought it up like 3 times

[MattP]

In short, would you all kindly de-ass your heads and maybe NOT help the scum team? I mean shit ... it's not like I crumbed our role already or anyth... oh wait.

Like this looks pretty significant? I guess not.

[MattP]

TvT

[MattP]

Reasonably Rational (hydra of Drixx and Cerberus v666)
Vedith
TheWayItEnds
Harry Panther
BotLane (hydra of Ankamius and d3x)
______
Spiffeh
mastin2
Monkeyman576
______
davesaz
PeregrineV
Firebringer
______
pisskop
Lickety
Cephrir
Heartless
Kthxbye

probably more in line with how I feel right now

[MattP]

because if scum matt caught a crumb it doesnt make sense for him to push RR to out it to town because it ups the chances that he could receive protection, or stop his lynch.

When he could instead, ignore it and just NK RR with a high chance of success, or RB him forever, or whatever.

I just dont get in what world it makes sense for scum to want information that they have that town as a whole does not out in the open.

Oh hey I like you

[MattP]

That claim doesn't make sense with your prior play

[MattP]

Why would the BP respond to a backup-BP claim by saying

That was a pretty awful claim.

That's ridiculous

[MattP]

If I were BP and someone claimed backup BP I would seriously second-guess it being a fake claim / high probability scum lynch.

That's just bizarrely inconsistent

[MattP]

I'm kind of morbidly curious about this flip. I don't think I've seen a wagon with less resistance ever ... not even a day one wagon. That inactivity and, to use the parlance, "Dat claim tho", are certainly bad but it's like someone greased him up and sent him down the chute or something. No resistance whatsoever. I've noticed that such things are usually bad.


Prediction: The claim seems like a lie. Probably scum.
Reaction: Irritated at Ika for quick hammering, but even if he's wrong, at least we'll be out of day one. Hooray!?

Like this makes NO sense to be your reaction to Performer's claim if you were really a town BP

[MattP]

I just wanted to quote this post, in its entirety. Somehow I hadn't gone back and read the entire post. MattP has been using select pieces of this post to make a narrative that we are scum. He has quoted the parts of this post that he can manipulate to fit his narrative repeatedly. He's quoted different parts of the post. He never quotes the whole thing in context. I didn't realize just how much manipulation and cherry picking of a single post had gone on to drive a wagon on us until I was reading our ISO looking for my crumb.

I'm supposed to quote an entire wall every time I want to point to a portion of the wall? That's so ridiculously inane.

[MattP]

Please show me a SINGLE time me selectively quoting from that wall has manipulated the tone of the post

[MattP]

That's like someone quoting portions of a book to make a point and the author saying "you're taking those quotes out of context! You need to quote the entire text of the book each time you want to reference a singular point!"

[MattP]

Errr... you said you crumbed on page 700? That's day 2, not day 1.

Did RR ever say he crumbed it day 1?

[MattP]

I'm the one who crumbed, and I did it on day one as is my habit when I am assigned the particular role I have. I generally crumb it in order to plant paranoia in scum that I have some other role than what I have. It becomes much less effective when I have to clarify that it's not one of the things they're scared it is. Most recently, I was forced to hard claim it in day one of "We Didn't Playtest This". I also recently hard claimed it in the twilight of a day 1 in a newbie game, but that was because I picked up on a subtle jailer crumb and while the jailer claimed despite me telling them not to under any circumstance, we still won. And the night actions were amusing.

Anyway... I'm not super conspiracy minded. It's possible that the crumb was caught that I put down in day one. The crumb I left was designed to imply that we were a bomb or a PGO (aka Army Veteran). I routinely crumb this way when I have the role we were assigned, because I am a much better player in the mid and late game than in the early game. Since Cerberus shares this characteristic, I dropped the crumb without talking to him about it.

All I see is this

[MattP]

I thought you said you weren't going to interact with me for the rest of the game. What made you change your mind if you don't mind me asking?

I don't want to get into this sort of back-and-forth anymore, I just want to play the game.

[MattP]

I think I would feel much better if you just ignored me TBQH. To keep it short, I have issues with you and I don't think I can interact with you without getting offended.

I have issues with you too, but I'm not going to harm town if asking you a question would help me. Feel free not to answer!

[MattP]

You are contradicting yourself.

No I'm actually not

[MattP]

Can you honestly say that you found that claim at all believable? Have you ever played a game on site with back up roles?

Yep! It is a standard role modifier included in the wiki, and I've been in a recent game I remember with maybe even two backups. I've also been in several games with universal backups