The First Mafia: Game Over

[Bulbazak]

Really curious what the leader can do besides be untouchable. Regardless, holding off for now. Curious to see what happens.

[Bulbazak]

[Bulbazak]

In all, taking Katsuki's twitchiness as a good sign.

[Bulbazak]

He is. I probably will too, but I just want to see how things shake out.

[Bulbazak]

SK is scum. Cool.

[Bulbazak]

They can't until the leadership vote is done. Not liking all the sucking up you're doing.

[Bulbazak]

Looks like I was wrong.

Leader: Equinox
Vote: SleepyKrew

[Bulbazak]

Even if you're right, UTL, SK's post stunk.

[Bulbazak]

Unvote

Nevermind. SK's town.

[Bulbazak]

Because I saw her at the convention.

[Bulbazak]

Vote Killthestory

[Bulbazak]

blablabla Don't care. Vote someone.

[Bulbazak]

Not sure if Kraska's reactions are scummy or just newbish. Trying to gauge what sort of panicky this is.

Camn's vote is worrying. Need to see more to figure out if this is symptomatic of her alignment or not.

P-edit: I'm a bad vote for the same reason SK is a bad vote. I'm disappointed that she hasn't put 2 and 2 together yet.

[Bulbazak]

I think kraska is a very nice and enjoyable player!

Okay...What's that got to do with anything?

Camn's vote is worrying. Need to see more to figure out if this is symptomatic of her alignment or not.

How so?

It's not her sheeping you. It's her sheeping you on a fast building wagon. If she wasn't paying attention and just wanted to place a vote, that's fine, but otherwise, that's a troubling sign coming from Camn. It was worrying, because I expected more from her in terms of how she'd engage with the game and me, and if she was just sheeping you, I'd imagine she'd at least look at the last VC and the last few votes to see if that was worth doing without knowing much about the game state. My first reaction was something about that entrance wasn't right, but I can't know for sure until Camn comes in here and actually starts engaging.

Did Bulbzak just dead-pan OMGUS me?
Bulb- Whats so worrying about me sheeping Katsuki? Its, Like, the most normal thing ON THIS ENTIRE WEBSITE.

I think I explained my position pretty well. And if I wanted to go "OMG!!! Totally scum!!!" using the logic I just provided, then you might have a case. But I know I need more info when it comes to you, which was why I voted Killthestory over you after I realized SK was town. I didn't want to ruin any results I might get just from letting you come in by yourself and do your thing.

[Bulbazak]

DRK, stop being stupid.

SK, I need you to use your brain and realize what I'm telling you. Then I need you to get your political butt off me.

[Bulbazak]

Unvote
Vote Kraska77

[Bulbazak]

Am I confusing you for someone else? I know we've played together. Let me do a quick dive into past game history.

[Bulbazak]

Okay, little embarrassed. Mixed you up with someone else. We have played, although I was using my Tails alt. I might have to review that game.

[Bulbazak]

Just glanced at a few posts in that Star Wars ISO of yours, and wow, I was holding you to too high of a standard in this game. That is really embarrassing to me.

[Bulbazak]

Can I sheep Katsuki now?

Do you not have your own thoughts on the game?

[Bulbazak]

Who were you mixing me up with, incidentally?

I'd rather not say.

[Bulbazak]

so.....i feel like i'm missing something here. like what? what's the difference between skrew's posting in #21 compared to #32 and #33? i guess a reason i could think of for you to townread him after #32 and #33 would be that he ignored your scumread on him?? but i don't know why that would be indicative of town <_< am i just dumb or what. is #36 some kind of code? the wheels on the bus go round and round, round and round, round and round?????? ahhhhhh

You are, but it's not something I expect anyone else to see. Let's just say that I noticed some very specific things coming from SK that prove she's 100% town, and I'm trying to get her to realize the same thing about me.

And also, ironically, his reaction to being voted is kinda panicky
Keeping the vote as a ~get ur act together and do something useful~ vote

I'm at L-2. I'm taking this very seriously, especially since I noticed it was a quickly building wagon around L-4. Compare that to your panicking at only 2 votes.

[Bulbazak]

Stop fishing, Kraska.

[Bulbazak]

I'm a little concerned that UTL was being all buddy-buddy with me yesterday, yet when I have heat on me today, he's all "Well, Bulba seems really weird".

@Katsuki: I need something more concrete from you, because so far, all I'm seeing is major conf. bias.

@Equinox: Can you give me your thoughts on Kraska? I'm not sure if you were ever scumreading her, and if you were, what made you stop. I just need some clarification there.

[Bulbazak]

[Bulbazak]

What makes you think I was gung ho? I thought I was fairly reserved for an early game.

[Bulbazak]

Bulb's jump to you seemed REALLY forced

I was operating under the assumption that votes for a lynch couldn't happen until the leadership election phase was finished, which was why I held off, because I wanted to get a good sense of player interactions without using RVS. The first VC proved me wrong, so I saw no reason to stall a leadership election which had already been decided and not just starting laying down pressure.

[Bulbazak]

Unvote
Vote UpTooLate

[Bulbazak]

I'm not sure I've ever been in a large that ended in that page range.

[Bulbazak]

Correction: Went over my wiki and have been in exactly 2 larges that ended in less than 70 pages.

[Bulbazak]

We have two more pages to achieve a lynch. My ability only works tonight if we enter N1 before the end of the 12th page.

I'm not sure that's going to happen or if I feel good about a lynch taking place in that short amount of time. How beneficial is this ability? Is it good enough to risk a shortened day phase? Is it good enough for you to lose your vote tomorrow?

So what you're saying is that me reacting to your reactions to things in the game is concerning? How so? I'm a friendly person, and generally act like that in RVS anyway. Wouldn't it be more concerning if I were still trying to buddy you and get you on my side while you're getting heat? Like, your leadership vote for equinox was weird after the comment you made about wanting to see how things were going to go or whatever.

It's just that your reactions always line up with what's convenient and easy to think at that particular point in time. You're overly friendly in the early game and then match your thoughts up with everyone else when you enter later without taking any risks yourselves. It's like you're just trying to blend in.

Here are my questions for you: I voted Equinox first post because I had been joking about it since the sign-up thread. Seeing that it was gaining momentum, why did you vote for her? Did you have a read on her? Were you expecting that phase to end so quickly?

I had been planning on voting Equinox since the beginning of the day as well. In fact, I even said as much. I had no clue as to his alignment, although I figured that at this early stage, it really didn't matter as much, and that I could learn more by just seeing what happened. And yes, given the sign up thread, I expected the opening phase to end within the first day or so. I just sped it up once I realized that both phases weren't separated.

I get the feeling that Killthestory is only going through the motions.

[Bulbazak]

Or are you one of those sick players who can get reads page 1 or 2?

I can get some very reliable reads within the first couple of pages.

[Bulbazak]

I want to hear Kat's response to my questions.

[Bulbazak]

Deal.

Unvote
Vote Killthestory

I still expect intent and time for a claim.

[Bulbazak]

So alternate Kingmaker. Cool. Does the execution end the day?

[Bulbazak]

Hmm... 50/50 on that, because we don't know for sure what to do, but I'm up for testing it. Who would you suggest as leader? I have a backup choice, but I'm not sure if it fits your criteria.

[Bulbazak]

*what it would do

[Bulbazak]

What's up Kats?

[Bulbazak]

Are you ticked off about the vote? Seriously. Get over it.

[Bulbazak]

Also, nobody should pretend that Katsuki was in the dark about having no control over her vote. The mod notified him at the beginning of the day.

[Bulbazak]

Vote Killthestory

Why did you make this vote?

Because he was one of only 2 who hadn't checked in, and I made a mistake on who Camn was. It was essentially a placeholder until I got better reads.

What led you to jump off Killthestory Yesterday and onto UpTooLate?

Because I had a scum read on UTL.

P-edit: Looks like I might have been wrong on Katsuki town. I need to confirm something with Myko first, though.

[Bulbazak]

I just got confirmation from Myko that Katsuki was notified about having his vote stolen. Kats is lying and is either scum, or trying the dumbest gambit known to man. I'll take those odds.

[Bulbazak]

Full claiming: I'm a town politician. At night, I choose someone whose vote I want to steal the following day. If successful, I can change their vote at will via PM. I am informed at the beginning of the day if the action was successful, and Myko confirmed twice that they are informed that their vote is stolen. I saw SK soft claiming the same thing yesterday, which was why I was sure he was 100% town.

[Bulbazak]

Let's put your theory to the test, Equinox.

Leader: Katsuki

If Kats is elected, he has to shoot me. I figure it's a win-win. Kats is dead either way, and if I die, that eliminates some doubt from the town and a potential hazardous ability.

[Bulbazak]

(1) The last-minute mini wagon on UpTooLate was trash.

What last minute wagon? I looked back over the VC, and there wasn't a UTL wagon. In fact, the UTL wagon disintegrated in favor of the quick Killthestory lynch. My fault, but still. And why was a UTL wagon trash?

[Bulbazak]

Yeah, like there's no reason why you wouldn't push through a quick lynch on a buddy who was clearly floundering. Color me convinced. And I would think you'd be all for being leader and having the ability to execute me. But you seem to be less gung ho about that.

[Bulbazak]

And there's a specific way people go about claiming guilites, especially after the whole "I get a special ability" thing, and being vague about it isn't it. That's just proof that you're spouting BS.

P-edit: I'll go back and reread from the next to last VC.

[Bulbazak]

I just looked over it again, and prior to my switch to Killthestory, Implosion and I were the only ones on the wagon. Imp moved to Hiplop, and no one picked up the cause after that. There was a last minute Hiplop wagon, but I didn't see it as super serious. Was that what you were thinking of?

[Bulbazak]

There's also the fact that they lose their abilities.

[Bulbazak]

Why the heck did bulba and hiplop vote UTL at the end of page 9?

I thought it was obvious why I voted UTL.

Full claiming: I'm a town politician. At night, I choose someone whose vote I want to steal the following day. If successful, I can change their vote at will via PM. I am informed at the beginning of the day if the action was successful, and Myko confirmed twice that they are informed that their vote is stolen. I saw SK soft claiming the same thing yesterday, which was why I was sure he was 100% town.

do you still think this makes skrew town?

Not as sure as I was yesterday, but I still can't see his actions coming from scum, so still highly likely.

[Bulbazak]

I went to bed last night thinking this situation felt familiar, and after a look at Mafiaception, I remember why:

Spoiler:

LOL I CAN FINALLY PROPER CLAIM NOW

ODD-NIGHT DAYCOP

VOTE: BULBAZAK

Apparently the concept of me claiming a

DAYCOP GUILTY

on Bulbazak is one that is hard to grasp.

Bulbazak, Watcher Agent (Town Watcher)

in the

Innergame

has been killed:

Greetings Bulbazak,

You are a

Watcher Agent

in the

Innergame

. Once per night, you may target one player. You will be told who (if anybody) visited them that night.

You win when all threats to the town have been eliminated and at least one protown player is alive.

Greetings Katsuki,

You are an

Agent

in the

Innergame

. You have no special abilities other than your mind and your vote.

You win when all threats to the town have been eliminated and at least one protown player is alive.

Now I really thought that I could count on everyone to use simple logic to realize Kat's claim is crap, or to at least ask the very simple questions that, quite frankly, should have been freaking asked at the beginning of the day. And I'm ticked that I'm the one to have to point out the obvious that anyone with two brain cells should have figured out and done, mainly because I didn't think it was necessary for me to do it, given that I had 100% proof that Kats was a lying piece of crap, and I didn't expect to have to be everyone else's wet nurse to put the obvious together. So...did it occur to anyone to ask, literally ask, Kats what exactly he got from that super special ability that he pushed a quick lynch for yesterday? And I don't mean "Hurr dee durr, he got a guilty...", I mean ask him to full claim what this 1-shot super special ability was that was important to rush the day. Because any town in that situation, after putting that much effort to get an ability, would have completely claimed, telling us exactly what the ability was, and exactly what the result was. Instead, we get some vague, nebulous "guilty", and no one did the obvious and asked for a full claim. Heck, when an investigative role that isn't 1-shot claims a guilty in a game, they give a complete 100% claim, and if they don't, chances are that the guilty isn't as crystal clear as it should be. Heck, look at what Jaqen did to Mastin in FF7 (That was a tracker "went nowhere" result claimed as a guilty and got town Mastin lynched.). Why did no one, at anytime, push Katsuki on this? You would think that would be one of the first things done today. I mean, forget Katsuki's penchant for fake claiming guilties, or the fact that the way this was claimed makes absolutely no sense from a claiming perspective and is obviously fake, this should have been the very first thing asked.

And you know what else should have been asked? If Katsuki made such a big deal about getting a super special ability from lynching someone within 12 pages, why didn't scum kill him? I mean, come on, the only possibilities from that being true are investigative or killing role, and that's too great a risk for a scum team. And you know what, let's use our brains for just one freaking minute and realize that would be too great a risk for me as scum too. Why would I back his play to hard bus my buddy if he got super powers when it would be so much easier to stay the course as most people are wont to do. Heck then, why don't I even kill him afterwards, because killing Camn makes zero sense in a scenario with a 1-shot super power and 2 masons on the board? And don't even say WIFOM, or it's because I wanted his vote, because neither of those are good answers. If I really wanted his vote so bad, I could have taken it regardless. I didn't need to make a deal to help him get a power off. I mean, that makes zero freaking sense. And while we're at it, let's talk about Camn, or Mr. "I might as well have this vote too". Yeah, maybe Camn would have gotten involved and did his own thing, but I doubt it, and at least for a while, I could have had 3 votes today instead of 2.

And for PJ's whole "well all he did was hard crumb yesterday" reasoning: We only played for 2 real life days. That's how fast those 12 pages were: 2 days! Of course I'm not a super duper scum finding sleuth in 2 freaking days! Of course I was preoccupied in getting one of my town reads to realize I was town! That's part of the freaking game and how you win in the long run! And hey, wouldn't you know, I was starting to find reads in that time, hence why I was on UTL and started that push. It just wasn't very hard, because it had no time to go anywhere before Katsuki's whole "I get a super ability if there's a lynch by page 12" thing.

And for all those still on the fence about whether Katsuki is scum or not: He rushed day 1. He faked, rather obviously, a guilty, but never went into detail or full claimed or anything town would do, that way he could go "oops, tee hee" later. He was very nervous about that original pitch for him to be leader. I've caught him 100% in a lie, that he was informed about having lost his vote at the beginning of the day (I inquired the mod about this twice.) and he acted totally ignorant of it, even after the VC came up. That's beyond a simple fake claim. That's premeditation. The fact of the matter is that nothing Katsuki has done makes sense from a town perspective, and that because of that, Kats has to die at some point, whether it's by gun misfiring or lynch, I don't care. There's no way he gets to live. And if, for some strange slim reason, he's town, I'm blacklisting him, because he showed that he obviously does not care about playing to his win condition if he can so callously throw a game like this. And if, for some strange reason, we ever find ourselves in a game together, he will be my d1 policy lynch every single time. I am that convinced that his actions in this game are not town.

So quit fapping around and elect him to be leader, because that is the best possible play for town right now. And if for some reason you can't do something as simple as that, then let's call it for what it is: Him and me. Only options. But regardless, you make sure not to back down on making sure Kats gets a 6 foot grave, because I would be ticked if I'm killed for some reason and you let him just walk away from this.

Vote Uptoolate

In the meantime, this is still obviously scum. Expect the Kats vote to move there as well.

[Bulbazak]

Ok. I don't have the time to read all of that right this second... but you actually believed he was being serious with the whole special ability thing?

I did. That's why I asked about what the ability was worth in terms of what he could lose, his vote being one of them. When he gave an emphatic yes, I thought it was worth a shot.

i think i'm confused about why people are actually trying to elect katsuki as leader

from what i've seen it seems like it's to get katsuki to execute bulbazak, leading to... bulbazak dying AND katsuki dying? only one dying? if bulbazak is town and katsuki is scum and katsuki executes bulbazak are we thinking that both die? if katsuki is town and bulbazak is scum and katsuki executes bulbazak do we think bulbazak will die and katsuki will survive? (this option seems unlikely because bulbazak is like 95% town to me)
then what about if both are town?

The assumption is that executing a town player would backfire and kill the leader. That's worth the risk for me, because I'm pretty sure Katsuki is scum.

So quit fapping around and elect him to be leader, because that is the best possible play for town right now. And if for some reason you can't do something as simple as that, then let's call it for what it is: Him and me. Only options. But regardless, you make sure not to back down on making sure Kats gets a 6 foot grave, because I would be ticked if I'm killed for some reason and you let him just walk away from this.

I'm really really unconvinced by this in several ways.
1) I'm not sure why you're framing it as "him and me, only options" when you were both town in the game you linked.
2) I'm not even vaguely convinced electing a scum leader is good.
3) While I am pretty much completely sold on you being town I really at this point have no strong feelings on Katsuki's alignment. Especially given what you just linked.

I really just haven't found anyone to scumread yet :S

Katsuki lied about not getting a PM from the mod telling him his vote was stolen. Furthermore, he went into the game pretending not to know that, even after the VC was shown. That's an act of pure premeditation, and that is not town motivated whatsoever.

[Bulbazak]

Because there's a gambit, and then there's playing against your wincon.

[Bulbazak]

To paint me in as bad a light as possible. Except, as town, there would be zero reason not to tell the truth, because he can still push the fake guilty. But as scum, he tries to overcompensate. He has to, because he's being incredibly dishonest and underhanded with trying to mislynch me.

[Bulbazak]

And I don't see why he'd do that as town. Hence why I said that if he's somehow town, I'm blacklisting him, because this is playing against your wincon.

[Bulbazak]

It's simple. He dies. End of story.

[Bulbazak]

And for PJ's whole "well all he did was hard crumb yesterday" reasoning: We only played for 2 real life days. That's how fast those 12 pages were: 2 days! Of course I'm not a super duper scum finding sleuth in 2 freaking days!

Of course I was preoccupied in getting one of my town reads to realize I was town!

That's part of the freaking game and how you win in the long run! And hey, wouldn't you know, I was starting to find reads in that time, hence why I was on UTL and started that push. It just wasn't very hard, because it had no time to go anywhere before Katsuki's whole "I get a super ability if there's a lynch by page 12" thing.

Ok few issues with this. Firstly, you were just telling me you only need a few pages to get reasonable reads:

Or are you one of those sick players who can get reads page 1 or 2?

I can get some very reliable reads within the first couple of pages.

But now you're saying you didn't have enough time? I also take issue with the bolded statement. Why were you so preoccupied with getting anybody to see you were town instead of just... being town. ESPECIALLY so early on? I mean, you hardly gave any time for people to form there own reads before you were concerned about how others see you. That raises a red flag for me.

There's a difference between getting some quick and dirty reads to work off of and serious scumhunting. Generally those quick and dirty reads I referenced are town reads. I don't expect them to be the same throughout the game, but I expect them to give me a pretty good indicator of what I'm looking at to get through the first day. Normally I need more time to refine them. The fact that PJ is criticizing me for not doing that, when, frankly, there was no time to do that, is ridiculous.

As for SK, I saw crumbs that looked like the role I had, figured scum would not be hard crumbing such a role, and took that as a town read. I tend to work off of PoE, so trying to get SK to realize the same thing I did and work in tandem was a huge priority for me. That would have been game breaking.

Spoiler: Now for a quick and dirty case

I'm not going to quote the early parts of UTL's ISO and buddying. It's pretty straight forward if you read the thread, and it makes sense from a scum perspective, as I was the most active player at the time. Now as for what he posted when he got back...

All hail Equinox! I'm surprised she was actually elected that quickly, however I like her posting so I think it was a good choice. I agree with kraska, Bulbazak seems postury. Idk he's coming off as weird to me but that could just be because I don't know him. Katsuki is posting and that's a good sign. DRK and beeboy are masons again like in puppy mafia, weeee. My phone keeps correcting things that I don't want it to. Ducks is ducks and I love ducks!

But more seriously, I'm in the same spot as kraska where idk why sk is Supa Town to bulb but whatevs. I never notice stuff like that anyway. I didn't like SK's vote for equinox, it felt weird. As did bulbas after he wanted to wait for things and then he really didn't. I'll read again later when I'm less medicated.

P. Edit. Katsuki you better not lurk. I'll end you.

This came right after I started getting attention. This is quite a shift from all the buddying and "I don't know why you guys are voting Bulbazak." that we got in the early hours of the game. All of a sudden the majority is suspicious, and wouldn't you know, now he magically is, too. "Weird" is a strange noncommittal phrase. It's like he's aligning himself with the town but still staying back to see where it goes.

VOTE: kts

How about your strategy is play the damn game.

Again, KTS is getting a lot of attention, but this feels more like distancing to me. It's way too over the top.

Phone posting.

Idk why anyone would think a politician would be a role to conftown them. Politicians are scummy by nature.

leader: Katsuki

Guilty seems legit. It makes sense why he would investigate Bulbazak and I didn't like bulbas play either.

Scum tend to super sheep any sort of guilty claim, especially when they know it's false, because they have an out. From the first sentence it's apparent that UTL would be a player to notice the holes in this scenario, but he doesn't question anything. He also joins in right after the common consensus is swinging Katsuki's way. The last sentence is over explaining, and the last part doesn't match up from his previous play. Now he's super strong on never having liked me? Yeah, right... All it shows is that his opinion is malleable depending on the current circumstances.

[Bulbazak]

Going to be transfering my Steam files from one external hard drive to another. I probably won't post as much in the interim.

[Bulbazak]

I've been prodded, I guess. I'll look over everything sometime tomorrow before I stream.

[Bulbazak]

There's a difference between getting some quick and dirty reads to work off of and serious scumhunting. Generally those quick and dirty reads I referenced are town reads. I don't expect them to be the same throughout the game, but I expect them to give me a pretty good indicator of what I'm looking at to get through the first day. Normally I need more time to refine them. The fact that PJ is criticizing me for not doing that, when, frankly, there was no time to do that, is ridiculous.

Is this what you're referring to?

2.) I believe that Bulbazak has the Politician role. But I am definitely not convinced he is Town -- and this is not yet taking into account Katsuki's claimed guilty result.

Reading back to Day One, it looks like Bulbazak was largely concerned with crumbing his role and now today he is focusing on proving/claiming it.

In a vacuum, when it comes to vote manipulation, I think Double-voters tend to be Town. However, vote-stealers feel far more likely to be Scum, potentially as a balance mechanism. And assuming kraska77 is telling the truth about being a 'backup politician', her role could be a sort of reward mechanism for nailing the opposing team's Politician.

Perhaps most importantly, I completely fail to see why he would think another player having the ability to steal players' votes would automatically make them Town from his perspective... if I were Town and had that ability, I would assume if somebody else had that ability they would have to be scum. Except even that does not make sense: what would happen if two Politicians tried to steal the same vote? What if one Politician stole the vote of the second Politician? Not to mention the logistical nightmare this puts on the moderator to keep track of multiple players with stolen votes simultaneously. The whole thought-process Bulbazak apparently had ("SleepyKrew mentioned wanting bribes -- he must have the same role as me, so he must be Town!") does not make sense to me.

If so, I'm not sure what your argument has to do with PJ's post. I see no where where he is criticizing you for not refining your reads. He is simply saying your "townread" on SK based on what you thought was a crumb doesn't make sense for the reasons mentioned in the quote above. I couldn't find anything else in his ISO for your to be referring to, but if I missed something please point me in the right direction.

I've bolded it for you. That's PJ implying that I did absolutely zero scumhunting and was focused only on crumbing, which was not true. And I explained why it wasn't true and why that criticism was low.

As for SK, I saw crumbs that looked like the role I had, figured scum would not be hard crumbing such a role, and took that as a town read. I tend to work off of PoE, so trying to get SK to realize the same thing I did and work in tandem was a huge priority for me. That would have been game breaking.

I don't buy this. I really don't. PJ made a really great point above. Why did you just assume SK was town based on him having the same role as you? Why didn't it cross your mind that he could be a scum politician? You were so fast to jump on it, you didn't even think it through.

Two reasons: 1.) The way SK was crumbing didn't make sense coming from scum. True, I was wrong about the role, but I think this still holds up. That crumbing was a little too blatant to be coming from scum, and if we're to assume SK has a role that is similar in name to mine or has to do with "bribing" or something like that, then crumbing that role as scum could be detrimental to his survival. Plainly, I saw no reason why SK as scum would be crumbing a vote stealer, when I knew that the town reaction to such a role would be hostile and that would be a role that scum would want to keep on the down low. 2.) I had no idea what to expect this game. I didn't know what the theme was about or what Myko would be willing to do as mod. When I considered that SK probably had the same role as me, the first thing I did was try to figure out if it was counter situation. Again, looking at reason #1, I felt the way he went about the crumbing was town, and assumed this was a game similar to Imaginary Fights, which had multiples of only a handful of roles.

Ok, first, I'm tired of you falsely accusing me of buddying. I'm always friendly and laid back in the beginning of games, especially when most of the playerlist I know and consider them to be my friends. That's just who I am and you can ask anybody who's played with me.

First, I still don't buy that. Maybe this is just past experience talking, but I know I can be partially susceptible to buddying, even when I catch it, and of course, this is exactly what you would say as scum if you

did

buddy me. So I'm not going to just trust your say-so, especially when that whole early game doesn't sit well with me. Second, you are, and have continued to be, extremely antagonistic towards any suggestion that you were buddying, which seems really off to me. I'd expect an eyeroll or at most a one sentence dismissal from most players, but you are very intent on proving that you're not buddying. Again, that leaves a bad taste in my mouth. Finally, it's interesting that you're laid back with a playerlist that you know and consider to be friends, but what does that have to do with anything? We've never played before, and you were focusing on being incredibly friendly to me and left others out of it. I find that antithetical to the point you made there. I'd expect you to be friendly with others on the playerlist and approach me a bit more cautiously. But I don't know, maybe my being the most active poster at the time had nothing to do with it.

Now, I want to point something out. You're trying to paint it like I flipped some townread (which I never had) on you within a few posts. That's not at all how things progressed. I first took issue with your sudden townread of SK, which I wasn't understanding at the time, which is why I asked you about it in 35. My next post wasn't until 152. In that time, you explained your read on SK which I didn't really get, made 45 which I didn't really like, and the whole thing with camn was really bad (even if she had been the person you were thinking of), it felt like you were trying really hard to get something on her (and not saying who you were confusing her with made me wonder if you made the whole thing up).

That is plenty of content for me to come to an opinion on you. You went from null to scummy during my catch up. I really dislike how you're trying to sell this, because that's not how it happened.

And these feel like some really stretched points to illustrate a frame of mind. First, if someone says something mysterious about a read on another player or says not to worry about it or they can't explain it right now, then chances are they are doing that for one or both of their sakes. It's not something you say "Well, I didn't get it, so scummy." You move on. Second, that post was a non-post. Pointing that out and saying "Well...um...I had reasons, and I found that scummy!" is pretty nitpicky and showing that you really didn't have a reason, and you only want to show that you did. Last, the Camn thing is something that I would fully expect scum to push. In reality, it's a non-issue and really not game related. You may view at as rude or mean or whatever, but it wasn't. Simple mistakes happen and are not alignment indicative, and I didn't want to elaborate on my error, because I was feeling really embarrassed and didn't want to increase that embarrassment, whether for myself or Camn. And I really didn't want this getting out to the other player in question. That could make future games awkward. You latching on to that and not letting go tells me that you have nothing, but you're going to latch on to any little thing you can to try to paint that you did have a scum read and were not just going with the crowd.

VOTE: kts

How about your strategy is play the damn game.

Again, KTS is getting a lot of attention, but this feels more like distancing to me. It's way too over the top.

What's over the top about it? You know why I originally voted him? Because I have been in too many games where people fuck around like this and never actually do anything, and just play it off as some type of schtick and end up getting a free pass because nobody held them accountable. I'm really fucking tired of it, and I was going to pressure that slot. That pressure turned serious when he did try to redeem himself and failed miserably.

If you wanted pressure, a simple vote would have done the trick as well. Being aggressive and just telling him to play the game does 2 things as scum: 1.) It's overly aggressive and something you can point to later to say "Hey, there's no way we were partners!". Again, when a simple vote would have done just as well, taking a tone that aggressive to what amounts to a policy vote seems off. 2.) There's also a bit of coaching, where you're yelling at KTS to get his act together.

Phone posting.

Idk why anyone would think a politician would be a role to conftown them. Politicians are scummy by nature.

leader: Katsuki

Guilty seems legit. It makes sense why he would investigate Bulbazak and I didn't like bulbas play either.

Scum tend to super sheep any sort of guilty claim, especially when they know it's false, because they have an out.

From the first sentence it's apparent that UTL would be a player to notice the holes in this scenario, but he doesn't question anything.

He also joins in right after the common consensus is swinging Katsuki's way. The last sentence is over explaining, and

the last part doesn't match up from his previous play. Now he's super strong on never having liked me? Yeah, right... All it shows is that his opinion is malleable depending on the current circumstances.

Please explain what you mean by the underlined, because I don't get it.

You showed that you were able to look at the scenario with the politician claim and dissect what was going on. You're right, I never expected the claim to conf. town me. I claimed, because I had caught Katsuki in a lie, and it was time to come forward with everything I had. I actually expected a lot of resistance to my claim, but was hoping that players would look beyond that to realize I was telling the truth about Katsuki. The reason I pointed this out about you is that you see that, but yet you didn't put the same amount of thought into Katsuki and the claim, instead swallowing it whole. I saw a disconnect there. Based on that sentence, you should have been able to see the holes in Katsuki's statements as town.

who else wants to be a leader that won't kill one of Kats / Bulb?

One or both of us is dying. There's no way we can afford to have this WIFOM make it to endgame.

->

a.)

First, Bulbazak compares this game to another game where Katsuki was effectively a Townie but claimed "Odd-Night Daycop" with results, one of which included a Day Three "guilty" on Bulbazak. And yet in this game because Katsuki is caught in a "100% lie," Katsuki must be scum (or else there is a "slim" possibility of Katsuki being Town).

I'm giving Katsuki the benefit of the doubt in saying he's conf. scum, because otherwise, he's completely thrown the game, and I'm done playing with him.

->

b.)

Second, Bulbazak complains that

other

players should have to dissect Katsuki's claim for him.

Not true. I was disappointed that I had to point out the obvious. To be fair, I anticipated having my hands full with the politician stuff. I believed that everyone here was smart enough to see the destroyer sized holes in Katsuki's claim, and it was disappointing to see that I was wrong. When I saw you swallow it hook, line, and sinker, I knew I'd have to point out what was being ignored.

->

c.)

Third, Bulbazak tries to undermine Katsuki's claim by focusing on the whole "special powers if Day One ends before page 12." This looks like a strawman to me. Given that Katsuki had about 39 posts before that 'claim,' I do not think anybody could seriously think Katsuki would get powers by suddenly claiming on page 10 that he would get powers if Day One ended quickly enough.

That's the whole build up for the claim. It's right there, and I can't believe that you'd take the position of one claim being false and the other not. If you don't believe one, it's questionable that you'd believe the other. And even if you are doubtful about the page 12 claim, the point is not about whether you believed it, but whether or not I believed it. And... well:

We have two more pages to achieve a lynch. My ability only works tonight if we enter N1 before the end of the 12th page.

I'm not sure that's going to happen or if I feel good about a lynch taking place in that short amount of time. How beneficial is this ability? Is it good enough to risk a shortened day phase? Is it good enough for you to lose your vote tomorrow?

Yes.

Deal.

Unvote
Vote Killthestory

I still expect intent and time for a claim.

I think it's pretty obvious that I did. And that means everything else I pointed out is still on the table.

->

d.)

In that same vein, Bulbazak argues that if Katsuki was telling the truth (about getting special powers), why wasn't Katsuki nightkilled?:

If Katsuki made such a big deal about getting a super special ability from lynching someone within 12 pages, why didn't scum kill him? I mean, come on, the only possibilities from that being true are investigative or killing role, and that's too great a risk for a scum team. And you know what, let's use our brains for just one freaking minute and realize that would be too great a risk for me as scum too.

Easily the biggest gem of the post, and complete nonsense. Ignoring the fact that this completely relies on a bad premise, this argument also ignores all the things scum consider when deciding a nightkill in an attempt to clear himself. And seeing as camn -- the player who

was

killed -- had literally only pushed Bulbazak and Killthestory on Day One

and

was willing to sheep Katsuki, this quote looks even more ridiculous.

This is complete nonsense, especially coming from someone who's proven to do a bit of research. So here's the challenge PJ, go through every one of my scum games and find where an instance like Camn happened. Find an instance where I ignored all the game breaking town power roles in favor of someone who

may

be a little suspicious of me and who really didn't pose much of a threat. Really. I'll wait.

The point is that you won't find it, because I know PoE is a killer as scum, which means confirmable roles must be dealt with ASAP. I don't care if someone suspects me. I can deal with that. I revel in that. Because more often than not, I'm the one in charge, and I enjoy manipulating the odds and being the smartest man in the room. Just click that link in my signature if you don't believe me. Now when I say that X and Y holes exist, believe me, because I'm not that stupid as scum, and the best play for me would have been to keep d1 going for a couple more weeks.

Spoiler: visual representation of current situation

look katsuki is the mummy duck and we're the little ducklings!

lead us to victory mummy!

The crap?

[Bulbazak]

is was a pretty unnecessary comment tbh yeah
reading 539 kind of started to convince me that you should shoot bulb if only to remove this you-v-him distraction from scumhunting though
i maintain that you're both still probably town
but you call the shots now, cap'n crunch

That's what I've been saying the entire day! This WIFOM can't make it to endgame. That's why regardless, Katsuki should not make it past d3. If he somehow doesn't get killed by the gun backfire, he needs to be lynched tomorrow, because he's either scum or a distraction.

[Bulbazak]

@SK: Why are you so touchy and needlessly aggressive this game?

Fuck DRK claimed Mason.... >_>
You really weren't supposed to do that.

Then this.

I don't like how it hasn't really been discussed :/

Is there a reason why you want to throw shade on mason claims? Otherwise, this is normally something that sorts itself out over time.

That was Beeboy's iso up to the point of this quote. How is this in your townpool, but not jelly, for instance?

Was there a reason why you're asking about PJ not specifically being in Implosion's townlist? That seems like some real pointless name dropping.

Nonsense about how the opening phase would end in one rl day. That's not how a smart town plays.

It's not nonsense if you were paying attention to patterns and play. I saw Equinox's election as inevitable and having been decided before the start of the game. Other than that, I didn't put much thought into it, since there was a lot about this game we didn't know. Is there a reason why we should have needlessly extended the election process? You seem to be hinting at knowing more about the mechanics than we do.

[Bulbazak]

They're untargetable and unlynchable only as long as they're leader. There was zero indication as to what those powers could be, and the only safe assumption was that the game was balanced enough as for them to not be game breaking on d1. With zero information and unreliable or no reads, just electing someone is not too great a risk. There's a lot of information you can get from it. Now if the same thing happened d2 on, you might have a point, but making a big deal out of a shortened d1 election seems just like nitpicking to me. The most important voting phase at that time was the lynch vote, and my decisions highlighted that.

[Bulbazak]

You also get a lot of information from seeing how people vote for the leader, which was my initial plan. I just dumped that plan when I realized lynch voting was officially happening at the same time, and that was more important.

[Bulbazak]

@Snarky: Actually, that's the opposite of your original point. You were arguing against the decision to quickly elect a leader on d1. And I said that the decision was of no consequence on the first day and that regular scumhunting via lynch voting was more important.

[Bulbazak]

On the bright side, this means you're probably town. Divided on whether it is best to policy lynch you or not, as I'm not sure if you'd help or hurt the town going forward.

[Bulbazak]

Not always. I'd say d1 was a policy lynch, and look how that turned out.

[Bulbazak]

@Pitoli: Politician is a custom role for this game, as I'm sure most, if not all, of the roles are. What about PJ's speculation made sense to you?

[Bulbazak]

Imp, thoughts on Snarky now that I've got him talking?

[Bulbazak]

CES, we're executing me, plain and simple. There's no way this WIFOM can make it to the end game.

[Bulbazak]

I doubt it works that way either. That just seems too busted to me, but I'm still willing to take the chance to kill Katsuki-scum and keep this nonsense from making its way into an endgame scenario.

[Bulbazak]

I doubt it works that way either.

Since when?

It just seems too broken balance-wise. That's why I've been giving multiple scenarios related to Katsuki dying. But at the same time, I'm not above testing the idea and being the guinea-pig if it actually has the chance of nailing scum and getting Katsuki killed.

[Bulbazak]

Going to be getting to this later today, most likely after I've gotten back home and have finished the Spire.

[Bulbazak]

Going to devote an entire post to this.

3.)

Not interested in the SnarkySnowman v Bulbazak back-and-forth, though happy to see SnarkySnowman posting.

Did you at least learn something from it? I was trying to engage Snarky so it would be easier to read him. I would expect something more concrete from you than just "Bored!".

->

a.)

You spent a good deal of your posts on Day One for the sole purpose of crumbing your role and night action. You had a sudden switch on SleepyKrew because SleepyKrew talked about "bribes." During the course of a few posts, you managed to toss in:

Because I saw her [SleepyKrew]

at the convention.

P-edit:

I'm a bad vote for the same reason SK is a bad vote.

I'm disappointed that she hasn't put 2 and 2 together yet.

DRK, stop being stupid.

SK, I need you to use your brain and realize what I'm telling you. Then I need you to

get your political butt off me.

I'm not sure that's going to happen or if I feel good about a lynch taking place in that short amount of time. How beneficial is this ability? Is it good enough to risk a shortened day phase?

Is it good enough for you to lose your vote tomorrow?

This is bound to get redundant, but I'm going to take this step by step. Everything you quote here is taken out of context and ignores what I was trying to do at the time. The first quote was after UTL asked about my sudden read switch on SK. Sure I could have just said "none of your business", but that would have signaled the exact same thing, and my goal was to give him a pseudo reason to just move on and draw attention away while at the same time trying to reach out to SK. Similar thing in the next quote. I was still trying to reach out to SK, but I was also trying to diffuse a bad wagon on me. Yes, it was not so subtle, but I'm really not very subtle when I'm a town PR getting unreasonably wagoned, normally because I don't like to claim unless I absolutely have to. And as for the last quote, that was me judging the seriousness of Katsuki's claim. If he said it was good enough to lose his voice the next day, then I felt it was a risk worth taking. There is literally zero reason why I would need to set up a target like that as scum.

You change your mind from thinking SleepyKrew is Scum to Town in a very public and obvious manner (i.e., "I think I know what his role his!").

Wrong. I was initially silent on my reasons and only gave vague reasoning to UTL because telling people to shut up normally does not have the desired effect.

You follow this up by trying to intimidate players away from voting you because you have a power role -- and SleepyKrew does, too!

Warning people away, yes. This is not a scum indicative trait.

And then at the end of the day, you literally bargained with Katsuki so that you could justify stealing their vote.

Again, there was no reason to bargain with Katsuki, as town or scum. My only goal was to see how serious Katsuki was. I could have easily let the day go on and pushed for a none rushed day, and I could have easily picked any target I wanted during the night. There was no reason to do what I did as scum, because my ability was going to be outed the next day anyway when someone realized they couldn't vote. The question is, what real reason did I have to out my ability at all as scum, when I could just as easily hid in the shadows and watched the chaos?

First, as I have already discussed, jumping to the conclusion that SleepyKrew is Town if he has the same role as you does not make sense.

It made sense at the time, and I still say that the way he went about things doesn't look like scum. Again, anonymous is better.

Second, trying to get players to stop voting for you because you are a "power role" is bad

particularly when

you do not have a role I would ever want to protect.

In theory. Not so much in practice. I'd likely do the same thing as any PR.

And third, you helped end Day One in such a way that helped you prove your ability.

Not my intention. Again, I was validating a claim.

And then at the start of Day Two you basically gloat about stealing Katsuki's vote:

What's up Kats?

Are you ticked off about the vote? Seriously. Get over it.

I figured that was going to happen anyway. Not gloating. Putting out a wild fire. And I got a lot of information from it. Besides, my original plan was to quell the situation, and then move on without full claiming if I could. I only laid all the cards on the table when I caught Katsuki in a lie.

None

of this looks Town. What it looks like is you noticed you had a "provable" ability and you set out to prove it.

And yet, you have yet to explain what I gain from any of this as scum, compared to just keeping quiet, going full blast after SK, keeping the day going to possibly move attention away from KTS (Because arguing for more time would not have been scummy in that situation, and KTS was effectively a policy lynch.), and then watching town tear itself apart in the chaos the next day. What do I have to gain as scum from going about things the way I have?

->

c.)

Perhaps the biggest absurdity in your most recent posting is that you think we should be questioning Katsuki's guilty claim on you to a higher degree. And yet on Day One, when Katsuki claimed:

We have two more pages to achieve a lynch. My ability only works tonight if we enter N1 before the end of the 12th page.

You

were willing to end Day One on the condition of stealing Katsuki's vote based on a highly tenuous claim.

Again, this doesn't make sense from a scum perspective. Why would I want to do that when not broadcasting my target and ability would work much better? All I was trying to do was judge the validity of Katsuki's claim, and if he was willing to lose his vote for it, then I felt that the risk was worth taking, especially since I really didn't have a read on KTS.

You did not question the fact that this post came

directly after

I complained about the game having too many pages, which helps put the 'claim' into context.

Actually, it came 3 hours after your post, and there were 10 posts in between. I'm not sure how I was supposed to see a connection.

You did not question the fact that Katsuki had posted about 40 times before making the claim -- something a player who wanted Day One to end quickly

would not do

.

It didn't occur to me, although Katsuki had been intent on pushing through my lynch and then just moved on to KTS later. And the KTS wagon was gaining steam when Katsuki laid down that claim. So, not really that unbelievable either.

And you did not question the absurdity of such a role existing.

In a game with a leader who is untargetable, unlynchable, and has super secret powers that could be game breaking, a game setup that's a complete secret with nothing to reference to see what's possible, and with my having a vote stealing role, Katsuki's claim didn't seem too far out of the realm of possibilities. I frankly had no idea what to expect.

But now that Katsuki has claimed a guilty on

you

, you suddenly allege that we are not treating the guilty result on the vote-stealing role with enough skepticism.

Given that you are attacking me for taking a role claim at face value, your taking a guilty at face value from someone known to do this, and when aspects of the claim don't match up (weren't you just making the same argument about me?), has me kinda worried.

Even assuming you fully believed that Katsuki was

actually

going to get some special ability for ending Day One quickly, there are multiple issues (beyond the "every game is different" generalization), such as: did you think

camn

was a power role? Did you think Katsuki might be

protected

? Could you

roleblock

Katsuki? And perhaps most importantly, what did your

partners

think about who to kill?

Okay, 1.) Why would I think Camn was a power role, and why would I kill him over mason claims and super duper ability claims that equaled either a killing role or an investigative role? 2.)Why would I think Katsuki would be protected over claimed masons? 3.)This still pales in comparison to not letting Katsuki get an ability in the first place, which could allow the use of a roleblock somewhere else. But ignoring that, doesn't this question undermine your belief in the guilty in the first place? 4.) I can't think of very many people playing this game that I would defer to as scum, and even then, they'd have to give a very good reason as to why Camn would be the kill. And most likely, I'd still overrule them.

Real talk though, was there anybody who'd feel threatened by Camn? I haven't played with her enough.

But if you want me to theorize why you did not specifically kill Katsuki on Night One (as opposed to

all of the other options

you had), I can find an answer in your own posts. You literally crumbed at the end of the Day One that you were going to steal Katsuki's vote. And if Katsuki was nightkilled Night One, you would be unable to prove it.

That makes literally zero sense from a scum perspective. Why go through all that trouble when I could just anonymously steal a vote? There's zero reason to just wantonly lynch my partner, and any benefits just aren't worth it.

My problem with this entire line of reasoning, and frankly all of your posting about the matter, is that you're so intent on just taking things at face value, when it's obvious that you are a deep thinker. This should be something that's occurred to you, yet you are putting in the minimum amount of effort required to progress.

[Bulbazak]

3) Why have we let Katsuki and Bulbazak create a 1v1 between themselves based on an obvious fake guilty? (You may assume leaders do die upon misexecuting for the purposes of your question)

Given that you think the guilty was so obviously fake, what do you make of PJ's blind acceptance of it up to now, especially when he then attacks me for accepting Katsuki's claim d1 at face value?

4) Her failure to understand your reference to ending the game today in #301 is probably feigned ignorance.

What

is

the reference? I feel like you think it is important, but I can't understand where you're coming from.

(2) I voted SnarkySnowman because he wasn't contributing. Now that he's posted, I'm too lazy to analyze his post or move off the wagon. Ask again later.

The first part is fine, but being too lazy to read / think about it or move is not really a town mindset

It's not really a scum mindset either.

not a big fan of nahdias reads.

Why not?

[Bulbazak]

they seem very go-with-the-flow

the inactive posters to her are scum

that seems manufactured to me

Except on page 10, everyone except you was active.

[Bulbazak]

2.)

I am not going to continue arguing the same points with Bulbazak. It seems more distracting (and largely ignored) than anything else. The role by itself sounds like a scum role, Bulbazak's actions to use and prove his ability strike me as scummy,

and

there is a claimed guilty result on the slot. For Day Two after we already lynched scum on Day One, that is

more

than enough for me, and more than I would normally to expect to go off of.

I get not wanting to have this devolve into an endless and pointless back and forth, but I asked some very serious questions there. But sure, we can just chalk it up to you being very inconsistent with how you deal with claims, and how, for someone who seems to be able to prefer critical thinking, I'm finding your reasoning very shallow.

3.)

That said:

Did you at least learn something from it? I was trying to engage Snarky so it would be easier to read him. I would expect something more concrete from you than just "Bored!".

I had a slight Townread on SnarkySnowman based on his Post #566 (his apparent belief of all the various 'claims' on Day One notwithstanding), and he actually moved beeboy (now Cogito Ergo Scum) up on my scumdar as I think he had a good point about how that slot seems to have been actively lurking.

But no, your additional dialogue with him was not very illuminating, since the gist of it was "why did you namedrop PJ" followed by a back-and-forth re-justifying your early-game play. You effectively made the conversation about defending yourself. The fact that you ended that conversation by saying SnarkySnowman is "probably Town" but you were still "divided" if he should be policy-lynched just makes you look worse from the exchange.

I've played with Snarky before and knew he'd just fade back into the shadows. So I prodded him for awhile to try to figure out where he was coming from. I felt he was town, although his thinking was misguided. That being said, I'm not sure if I'd really try to protect him if a policy lynch would be pushed through. I've recently come around to the utility they can have, although I'm still not wild about pursuing them. At the end of the day, I doubt I would vote him, but I wouldn't cry if he was lynched.

There are some things about this game that are bugging me, but I'm normally too preoccupied to look too much into them. If I get the time in the next couple of days, I might.

@Implosion: Talk to me about PJ and Hiplop. I have varying reads there, and that's my biggest concern. I have the power to end this any time I want, but I have a nagging feeling in my gut telling me something is very wrong here, and I don't want to get to the end of the day before I've fully sorted my reads out.

[Bulbazak]

I'm just assuming 3 scum until proven wrong. I don't get your Implosions scum read, though.

[Bulbazak]

@PJ: Katsuki doesn't back down from a fake guilty and never admits he's wrong. And the problem is that he introduces too much confusion that it has to be dealt with immediately or it will influence the end game.

@Implosion: There's something I keep meaning to check, but I haven't had ample free time to do so. I'll try to get to it tonight, but suffice to say that I don't think they're both scum here.

@DGB: Why is UTL your largest town read?

Also, I'd like to try to get some last minute thoughts out. So can please no one quick hammer. I'm going to try to sort things tonight when I get home around midnight.

[Bulbazak]

I need to stop losing track of time...

Vanity wagon!

VOTE: Laladucks

Why are you townreading hiplop? And actually, why am I such a strong townread?

Ah it's been so long since I read the game I forget now

I would really like you to get back to this. That read had me lost as well and felt the most needed to be explained. Please reread if you have to.

That's all for tonight. I'll do the rest tomorrow. For now, I need to actually get my crap together and get on a good sleep schedule. Page 31 for my own personal notes.

[Bulbazak]

I need to stop doing this before I go to bed...

i think there's a decent chance that dgb is scum

like her push on me is pretty bullshit, to start with
and i had to check who she replaced and i can def see skrew being scum matching up with his play
but i wouldn't have wanted to lynch him this early becuz i am snapchat best friends with him
i have no such reservations lynching dgb

Not really seeing anything here that equals DGB-scum. Why is her push on you BS? And as for SK, the most you can say there was that he was pretty grumpy. Other than that, I've seen his activity suffer as town as well, and activity is not alignment indicative anyway so...

I guess I don't really get the sudden ducks wagon, and I really dislike the timing.

i feel like this statement's town/scumminess hinges entirely on hiplop's alignment
(its wrongness does not hinge on anything, however)

What's wrong with this statement? And how is it alignment indicative? Give me examples based on Hiplop being town and scum.

dgb is waaaaaaaay scummier
like if hiplop's scumminess = two blueberries
then dgb's scumminess = a hundred raspberries

And DGB is scum why? Actual case please, because so far, I see diddly squat.

2.)

DrippingGoofball, we just had about three replacements in a row who are all reading the game and providing fresh viewpoints. Why would you then feel the need to vote one of your Townreads for the sake of "movement" when you have three scumreads to choose from? For somebody who has apparently not even read Day Two yet, voting for the sake of "movement" seems even more manufactured.

I would ask if you've played with DGB before, but further down, it's quite evident that you have. DGB wanting to get the game moving is not out of the ordinary. Why then do you try to paint it like it is?

4.)

Serious questions: DrippingGoofball, do you feel like you are still having memory issues? Do you feel like that is affecting your play in this game to any extent? Are you okay to be playing mafia right now?

My apologies if these questions are a bit too personal or are not worded sensitively. And I am not trying to imply that I personally want you to replace out. But I do honestly worry whether this is a game you should be playing.

This is dirty pool.

VOTE: drippinggoofball

if necessary i'll 1v1 her

do you actually think you would win this 1v1? that seems like an un-you-like thing to think

it's pretty 50/50 but even if i get lynched at least people should look into dgb more so, either way it works for me

Why do you think starting a 1v1 with DGB would cause people to start to look at her? At least in the case of me vs. Katsuki, there is a reason why the 1v1 must be resolved. With you, there's nothing. So why do you think a 1v1 with DGB is a good idea again, other than the fact that most people just write 1v1 challenges off as town?

i don't expect it to be as clear to others how scummy dgb is because a large part of my scumread hinges on knowing for a fact that i'm town

On to page 33. Tomorrow after updates... But just in case, definitely considering a Ducks/PJ team. I need to see how some other things stack up first, because there are some things that are making me doubt that.

[Bulbazak]

Screw it. Knocking this out now.

Despite having mostly townreads (which is fine by the way), I don't get the sense that he's pushing to line himself up with them in order to find scum.

To be fair, I don't think anyone's doing this right now.

what's your read on dgb snarky?

and did anyone notice she's been online for a while and not posted here?

So?

#3 I didn't notice that. That means I have a wrong town read. It does not.

Who do you think is the most likely on that list to be scum? And while you're at it, can you go back and figure out why you had a town read on UTL?

@ CES

Talk some sense into PJ

thanks

Why would you want CES to talk sense into PJ if you think he's scum?

Okay. Now I'm current and can easily get to my dive tomorrow. I've also moved the Katsuki vote to somewhere a little bit more useful. In the meantime, can we back off Hiplop a bit until I can at least get some thoughts out? After that we can debate lynching him, but I would like a little bit more time to actually do this stuff.

[Bulbazak]

3.)

2.)

DrippingGoofball, we just had about three replacements in a row who are all reading the game and providing fresh viewpoints. Why would you then feel the need to vote one of your Townreads for the sake of "movement" when you have three scumreads to choose from? For somebody who has apparently not even read Day Two yet, voting for the sake of "movement" seems even more manufactured.

I would ask if you've played with DGB before, but further down, it's quite evident that you have. DGB wanting to get the game moving is not out of the ordinary. Why then do you try to paint it like it is?

DrippingGoofball and I have played together for many years.

What kind of "painting" did I do? I am trying to figure out why she would vote one of her Townreads and whether she is making up reasons to do it. It does not make sense to me that a replacement who is still reading the game would feel compelled to vote one of their Townreads.

She's replacing into a game that's stagnated and has had multiple replacements, and she's also way behind. Looking to just get a lynch in and catch up during the night is actually fairly normal for her. Focusing on Hiplop being a townread in early catch up posts is just splitting hairs and avoiding the acknowledgement that this is actually in the bounds of how DGB plays. And that type of focus is what made me raise an eyebrow in the first place. I'm assuming that you've either played with DGB as often as I have, or maybe even more, and that you ignore a fairly common tendency to instead call it indicative of scum play is suspicious, because that points to you only caring about surface play over motivations.

[Bulbazak]

Going to reread d1 tomorrow. I think I need to see how everything played out again, and a quick ISO search of KTS+PJ isn't helping. There does seem to be something off, but it wasn't what I initially thought it was.

[Bulbazak]

TOWN
DGB
UpTooLate my top town read
Katsuki
Hiplop
Equinox (see post #126)
DeathRowKitty (mason?)

UpTooLate was literally your "top town read."

Why

are you voting for her? Your votes in this game are completely at odds with your words.

I think you know how I generally feel about this, but I actually do want DGB to answer this, because I've been waiting for some reasoning on the UTL read for some time. That being said, do you think that her reads have not had time to change since she replaced in? You just seem to be more hung up with words over actions and intentions.

Unvote: beeboy

Vote: Killthestory

Also, looking back, I can't find a reason for this vote. Why did you vote KTS again?

[Bulbazak]

Why is her push on you BS? And as for SK, the most you can say there was that he was pretty grumpy. Other than that, I've seen his activity suffer as town as well, and activity is not alignment indicative anyway so...

because i'm town and she's scumpainting me.

How is she scumpainting you?

And DGB is scum why? Actual case please, because so far, I see diddly squat.

diddly squats are my fave exercise

You didn't answer the question.

i want dgb to be lynched - if people would rather lynch me today i'm fine with that WITH THE CONDITION that when i flip town they -strongly consider- lynching dgb next day. it's depressing to consider the thought that town would ignore this read upon lynching me as it's what i've felt strongest about all game (no, still not going to make a case). was not aware that people consider 1v1 challenges to be alignment indicative

I don't see why anyone would consider anything from you if you don't give reasons. This is just incredibly idiotic.

i don't think i said anything complex there

No, you're just saying something stupid, and I'm trying to get you to expound on your thought process.

@Myko: I moved Katsuki's vote a couple days ago. Can you please reflect that in the VC?

I have an errand to run, and then I'm going to come back here and post some analysis and final thoughts. I'm hoping that PJ's response will come in the meantime.

[Bulbazak]

DGB, am I going to have to give up on that initial UTL read reasoning? I was even willing to wait for a d1 reread.

[Bulbazak]

Am I to assume that her being your highest town read equals that your reads aren't too solid overall?

[Bulbazak]

To ducks, may she stay strong and resilient

dearest errantquintic,
why do you think dgb's chance of rope is so low? i feel like it's a viable option for today, we still have almost a week until deadline and already we have vaseline on the wagon so it's looking like smooth sailing from here on out!
if there's still not much support for dgb lynch by a couple days before deadline i will vote hiplop

oh yes that wasn't a case on dgb. i was saying look it's a scum i wanna lynch here's a half assed omgus reason
i don't expect it to be as clear to others how scummy dgb is because a large part of my scumread hinges on knowing for a fact that i'm town

Sure, I guess there's time to try to swing a better lynch from your perspective. That's reasonable. I would rather not lynch DGB
Could you explain why DGB scum hinges on you being town? I don't see any universe where that's a reasonable thing to say.

i want dgb to be lynched - if people would rather lynch me today i'm fine with that WITH THE CONDITION that when i flip town they -strongly consider- lynching dgb next day.

i think this is an incredibly unsettling thing to say, ducks

EP gets it.

It's sad that you're getting executed, bulba. I like you.

I like me too, but unfortunately, my death is a necessary measure, and so is Katsuki's. If Katsuki does not pull that trigger, I'll be coming after him with all the fury I can muster until he's lying six feet under. Thanks for the UTL reasoning as well. I just needed to see where you were coming from.

so i'm not entirely sure where bulba/drk stand on a ducks lynch, but if they want to get on this train, i'm there.

Look at the VC to see where Katsuki's vote is. I'm going to pull together some final thoughts after my stream tonight, because I don't want this day to pass without those hitting the thread. I also hope that PJ will grace us with his presence before I get to my analysis. His absence is starting to bother me.

[Bulbazak]

2.)

Unvote: beeboy

Vote: Killthestory

Also, looking back, I can't find a reason for this vote. Why did you vote KTS again?

Honestly, you probably didn't catch the reason because you are so focused on trying to catch things while reading posts in isolation instead of reading the game cohesively.

I initially voted for Killthestory after Equinox mentioned in Post #97 that he had been in site chat but had not posted in this game. At that time, Killthestory was the only player who had not posted in the game. I also used the "Search user's posts" function and confirmed that he was posting on the site.

Actually, i wasn't reading posts in isolation, but I still missed that connection.

3.)

I also hope that PJ will grace us with his presence before I get to my analysis. His absence is starting to bother me.

I last posted yesterday morning. What about that bothers you?

And why are tossing in negatively connotative language like "grace us with his presence" when describing me? I'm not royalty.

I was hoping to hear your answer to my question before I posted my analysis, and given the timing on most of your d2 posts, you were overdue. I was starting to wonder if you were avoiding the thread.

[Bulbazak]

Okay, just going to do a quick and dirty wagon analysis. (Note: I've modified it to include the replacements. You can recheck the original quote to see that nothing else has been changed.)

votecount

Killthestory (8): Petroleumjelly, Uptoolate, Katsuki,

Camn

, Hiplop,

Bulbazak

, Snarkysnowman, Lalaladucks
Hiplop (2): Cognito Ergo Sum, Implosion
Bulbazak (1): Deathrowkitty

not voting (4): Killthestory, Pitoli, DrippingGoofBall, ErrantParabola

I reread d1, and the only votes that stood out to me were the following:

VOTE: kts

How about your strategy is play the damn game.

This still pings. For comparison, see how Equinox handles it. This just felt like a scum partner getting annoyed at KTS and voting him as a means to get him in line. I can see town getting annoyed or angry at what KTS did, but I don't see them being this vehement. Normally, they just vote and not say much past that.

Always trust in PJ.

VOTE: KTS

I found this offputting the second time through. It might just be that PJ actually had nothing to do with the strength of the lynch. Mostly, it's probably just the name dropping, which always sounds like a way to dump responsibility. Not really as applicable with a scum flip, but it still felt really off to me on a reread.

Okay, so it's a reasonable assumption that KTS was bussed. That usually means we're looking for 1 on, 1 off. Those off the wagon are {CES, Implosion, DRK, Pitoli, DGB, EP}. Equinox (EP) was the one that pushed the wagon and got KTS lynched, so I doubt he's scum. Also, rereading d1 with knowledge of the leader ability shows that he was planning on executing KTS, so it makes sense he was off the wagon. Implosion and DGB are strong town reads of mine, so I doubt they're scum. CES and DRK had that mason claim, and while we can argue about the validity, that's enough for me to give them a pass, along with the fact that I'm townreading CES. That leaves Pitoli, aka Kraska. I still don't like a lot of Kraska's d1 posts, and it really looks like she panicked when wagoned. However, that could just be a newbie thing. Still, if you're looking for scum off the wagon, this is the most likely place.

Now for the remainder of the wagon itself: {PJ, UTL, Katsuki, Hiplop, Snarky, Ducks}. PJ is right in that Hiplop is the most likely place to look. His pointing out that scum were most likely on both the Equinox leader wagon and on the KTS wagon was stating the obvious. Add in the fact that he also called KTS town. However, every time I think about Hiplop's actions, the more they don't seem to make sense coming from scum. Do they look bad? Absolutely. But I've seen Hiplop as both alignments, and I'm not sure that he'd be so quick to point out about scum being on the wagons or to quickly town read his partner when heat is starting to fall. That just feels too hasty. Did Hiplop make obvious observations? Yes, but I'm not sure that's the scum tell we normally think it is. And as for that KTS townread, going back and seeing the timing makes me understand why he did so: Because I don't think Hiplop thought that someone that obstinate was really scum. It's kinda how I just saw the lynch as a policy lynch but didn't have a read, only Hiplop came out of that initial confrontation with a townread, in much the same way as I townread Snarky.

There's also the fact that I've had a gut feeling that KTS was not just bussed, but hard bussed. That wagon just went too fast, and I think both of his scum partners helped push it to get rid of the dead weight. Besides Equinox and Camn, nobody had a really strong motivation for being on that wagon. Rereading d1, PJ was weaker on the wagon than I remembered. He got on first with a naked vote and then just weakly noted that KTS contradicted himself in a mafia discussion. Most of the heavy lifting was done by Equinox, and PJ just fades into the background d1. I'm not sure what to think about Katsuki's vote, Snarky is just there, and Ducks copies Camn's reasoning for why KTS should be dead. The worst vote of the bunch is UTL, especially when the rest of his play d1 is taken into account. When considering 2 scum on, Hiplop really doesn't make sense with any of the others. The most likely pairs are somewhere in {PJ, UTL, Ducks}.

Going off of the idea of scum on the Equinox leader wagon, let's look at that:

Equinox (8): Deathrowkitty, Uptoolate, Katsuki, Cognito Ergo Sum, Petroleumjelly, Implosion, Bulbazak, Sleepykrew

The following were on both wagons: {UTL, Katsuki, PJ}. So besides Katsuki, who needs to be taken care of anyway, UTL and PJ are both highly suspect.

Also, reading back through, I think I found why Camn was killed:

Please hammer.
1-shit Vig = I'm actually scum and want an excuse why I live through the game AND why I was seen killing someone.

He pretty much said he was a PR with this.

Also, looking back over the end to put this together, there's something from Duck's vote that is making me think he might be town.

[Bulbazak]

Going to sleep now. Will give me final thoughts tomorrow. Moving Katsuki's vote back to UTL. I advise DGB to do the same.

[Bulbazak]

1.)

You focus on what you think are the two worst votes on the Killthestory wagon, but you miss these three:

VOTE: kts

for kats

Deal.

Unvote
Vote Killthestory

I still expect intent and time for a claim.

VOTE: KTS for L-1

I like this wagon.

I didn't miss them. I'll be the first to admit that most of the votes on KTS were meh, with Equinox having the only justified one. Camn came back hard after KTS's claim, but even he just sheeped Katsuki. The 2 I mentioned were the ones that still felt wrong to me after a reread. I never said that the rest were great votes, and I wasn't expecting them to, because KTS was the very definition of a policy lynch.

hiplop went from calling Killthestory Town, trying to start up an UpTooLate wagon, to voting Killthestory "for Kats(uki)." If you think Katsuki's vote is suspect for "trusting in PJ," it's odd you are not pinged by hiplop's voting based on Katsuki's vote (who hid behind

my

vote).

Reading d1 organically, the timing of his hop to KTS actually makes a little more sense. It was right after the Katsuki claim, KTS was continuing to be obstinate, and the wagon was quickly building as people were just tired of the whole situation. As I've said before, all the votes at this point are for less than stellar reasoning. I've also mentioned that I've gone back and considered everything Hiplop has done, and it just doesn't make sense to me from a scum perspective. Yeah, it looks bad, but I just can't seem to get any sort of scum motivation to line up.

You similarly went from the strange UpTooLate wagon to voting for Killthestory for no good reason, save for making a "deal" with Katsuki to steal his vote on Night One. Granted, you're unlikely to call out your own bad vote.

I'm a dead man walking at this point, and I don't feel like going through the motions of assuming I might not flip town. You can believe that if you want to, but I'm not adding a needless layer of BS to my final thoughts. And as for everything related to that vote, we've gone over this countless times, and I don't feel like rehashing this with you.

And you know what, for someone that was criticizing me for not taking timing into account when questioning your vote, you sure seem intent on throwing up votes in isolation as a way to discredit anything I try to say.

And of course, SnarkySnowman did pretty much nothing Day One save for throwing down a L-1 vote on Killthestory.

That was actually typical Snarky, sad to say. I could have pointed that out, but knowing that it was nothing out of the ordinary, I'd be wasting space and poisoning my analysis. I was looking for things out of the ordinary. Snarky could still be scum, but it wouldn't be because of that vote.

2.)

You argue UpTooLate voted for Killthestory to get his attention as a way to get him to play the game. But as the Mod indicated:

Role PM's are out! As in any myko game, don't bother confirming, day one starts now! People with a private topic will be able to get to know each other in the first three days.

Day One took less than three days, so scum had Daytalk with each other the entire time. I assume if they wanted to communicate with each other (such as, "play the game"), they could have just done so in the private topic.

This is actually a good point, and one that I had not considered. It could still depend on UTL's temperament and whether she wrote KTS off as dead weight, but the fact that scum chat was still open weakens the point.

3.)

You argue that Killthestory must have been "hard-bussed" but then seem to criticize me for "fading into the background." So which is it?

Those observations weren't connected. I felt that KTS was likely hard bussed due to the speed of the wagon, which meant that there's probably 2 scum on the wagon. It had nothing to do with how they would have interacted throughout the game. Your "fading into the background" was just an observation I made concerning your overall involvement d2, and is more of a response to the main way you're being townread right now.

4.)

And as for "fading into the background," you (again) seem to ignore my schedule and how often I can realistically post. After Monday evening (when I made my post asking Killthestory about his Mafia Discussion thread), I never had another opportunity to post because Killthestory was lynched while I was still at work on Tuesday.

I actually was taking that a bit into account, which was why I was trying to figure out why you were voting KTS and why I didn't push that point very hard. I'm actually very conflicted where it comes to you, but nothing about my thoughts regarding you likely being scum have anything to do with your not being as involved. I was, however, countering the notion that you must be town because you led the KTS lynch, when this is not true in any regard. Yes, you were the first vote on the wagon, but you had little to no impact on how the KTS wagon progressed. All of that fell on Equinox, Camn, and, in some respects, Katsuki. My point to those wanting to give you town points was that you were a non-entity and your one point on KTS wasn't very strong, all things considered.

UpTooLate is

my

highest Townread. What exactly is your case in calling her scum? Because even after your analysis, I'm not seeing much of a reason.

I've already gave my reasoning for her being scum multiple times since d1. Frankly, I have seen very little original reasoning from her and a tendency to go with the crowd. If she's your highest town read, I want to know why, because frankly, that seems kinda strange to me.

I am very much against your attempt at instigating a wagon on her a day before the deadline.

Again, my wagon on her isn't new. My pushing it a little harder is, but out of {Hiplop, Ducks, UTL}, she's the one I feel strongest about. I also think that we have the votes for that wagon, and given my recent feelings that Hiplop and Ducks are likely town, I think her lynch is the one more likely to give us a scum flip.

I don't like a ducks lynch. I think her attitude in this game just feels more like what I'd expect from town ducks (although I'm not super familiar with her meta?) given the scum lynch + apathy in the game + it felt like she was trying to breathe life into the game. The "when I flip town" thing is ever so slightly disconcerting but I don't think it's totally inconsistent with the way she's been approaching this game.

townducks to me feels different idk man

How so? I would like to get your thoughts on how town ducks feels, because I have my own issues with that slot that keeps me questioning my own reads.

[Bulbazak]

Also, PJ, the starting a new wagon thing can be extended to you starting one on DGB.

[Bulbazak]

[Bulbazak]

Not really as applicable with a scum flip, but it still felt really off to me on a reread.

Yeah, it's not like I said the same thing or anything, but keep throwing shade.

[Bulbazak]

Spoiler: Final Reads List

Town

Implosion
DrippingGoofball
Errantparabola
Cogito Ergo Sum
Deathrowkitty

Null/Town

Hiplop
Lalaladucks
Snarkysnowman

Null/Scum

Pitoli

Scum

Katsuki
Petroleumjelly
Uptoolate

I have incredibly strong town reads on Implosion, DGB, and EP. DGB is mostly due to the townread I had on SK. I still don't think that SK lays down the crumbs that he did as scum. Whatever it is, it's probably similar to my role that town would disbelieve the role being town. There's also nothing about SK's play that's outside the norm for his town play. As for DGB's play, it's actually exactly what I'd expect from her as town, and I feel very solid in my read here. The only odd thing concerning the slot was how Kraska reacted to SK snapping at her. If I'm somehow wrong about DGB, you need to look at Pitoli. As for EP, I'm townreading the slot mostly from Equinox. I don't see Equinox-scum not only leading the wagon hard on his partner d1, but then getting ready to execute him. I also think how he went about things concerning the leader role strongly suggests town. CES/DRK have that mason claim, which neither slot has disavowed, and I'm not interested in going any further there. That's something that I think will sort itself out, but for what it's worth, I also town read CES, so I'm more likely to believe it.

I think I've said all I need to about my null/town reads. I still can't see Hiplop doing what he did d1 as scum, but if he did, then he's the only one on the wagon. Also, I think I was wrong in my analysis yesterday about Hiplop/Pitoli in that case, as neither was on the Equinox leader wagon. If Hiplop is scum, then I'm wrong in my town reads somewhere in {DRK, CES, DGB, Implosion}. If that is the case, the mason claims need to be tested, although DGB or Implosion would be the most likely place to look. I have reasons I'm conflicted on Ducks that I really can't go into here, and it's for those reasons I've been avoiding giving a real read there. I've actually kinda developed a town read based on some d1 stuff and some of the more recent stuff he's said, so take that into consideration. Snarky is not going to contribute much and will continue to be a drain, but he's more than likely town.

I had a slight scum read on Kraska, but I was hoping to get more from Pitoli, who has continued to let me down. Don't let that slot continue to coast. UTL has been my strongest scum read since d1. It began with the buddying, which I noted, and although UTL has tried to discount that, nothing from the rest of her play has set me at ease to consider I was just paranoid. She has not made any unique contributions, and if you look back through her posts, you'll find that her thoughts and stances line up with what was being said at the time. I'm not sure why several people have her as their top town read, and that really needs to be explained, because that slot stinks. PJ is similar. So many people are townreading him, and I don't get why. He seems to be a very analytical person, but so far, I've just seen very shallow surface reasoning coming from that slot. He's not trying to consider things at a deeper level, instead, attacking minuscule things to try to make certain players look bad. I see someone who is using argumentation to frame players in a certain light rather than trying to figure things out. I thought maybe I was wrong, but this feeling has persisted throughout the day, and you can see it if you look at his posts enough that he's just trying to make certain players look bad, rather than inquiring and discerning alignments. Do not just write this slot off as town. Continue to question him.

Finally, there's Katsuki. I've just gotten to the point where I've not been including him in any sort of alignment analysis. I want him dead. Simple as that. We can argue all day about whether his actions are town or scum motivated, but I'll just simply say that I prefer to give him the benefit of the doubt and assume he's scum. Because if he's not scum, then he's thrown the game for some sort of vendetta that's followed me across 2 different games now, and I'm sick of it. If he's town, then I will blacklist him, and if there ever is the occasion where I find myself in the same game as him, I will make it my mission to make sure he dies as soon as possible, and if I get a vig shot, he will be my victim every single time. BECAUSE THERE'S NO FREAKING EXCUSE FOR THIS!!! And because of this, he's set town up to have to deal with this WIFOM before it gets to endgame, which might end up costing us the game. I really hope that the execution works as we initially thought, because then he'll kill himself and this will be over. But if it doesn't, and if I die or if he doesn't pull the trigger, then the first order of d3 should be to elect someone else as leader and to string him up or execute him. Because let me spell this out, with just me dead, you will have no way of knowing if he was scum who pulled off a mad gambit or a town player who lied his butt off. That can be killer in end game. So don't allow him to reach d4. If you don't listen to anything else, listen to this, because if you don't, it can cost you the game.

I'll be around for awhile tonight. If there are any last minute things I can do, let me know.

[Bulbazak]

shrug

[Bulbazak]

This is the second game in a row Katsuki. So yeah, I'm feeling like you have a vendetta against me, especially since you've been gunning for me since the start of day freaking 1. And yeah, I'm choosing to believe the best in you and call you scum, you know why? Because I can't see the town motivation in your lying about receiving the mod message about not having a vote. I don't see the town motivation in acting from the beginning like that didn't happen. I don't see the town motivation in you ACTING surprised when I called you out and caught you with your pants down. I see ZERO town motivation for any of those moves, especially when you didn't need to lie to try to hang me with your pathetic fake guilty. Do I claim to be playing the best game? NO! I'm decidedly distracted, and guess what? Early d1 shows that. I just hung around at the beginning not just to see reactions but because I was so busy with rl that I didn't have time to devote my full attention to the game. I've been incredibly distracted, but I've at least tried to make my reads clear as we've moved on, but I've had to deal with your nonsense every step of the way. And you try to sell my push on you as indicative of scum, when prior to your LYING ABOUT SOMETHING I COULD 100% PROVE, I had been calling you town. You try to guilt trip me siting your lynching scum d1, but that was a policy lynch that went through in 2 whole days, and your voting record before that was less than stellar. Besides the fact that I was proving how good your claim was, I did not trust you with a vote whatsoever. And guess what bucko? I only took your vote, not anything else, so riddle me this: why have you proceeded to do nothing today? And don't talk about scum motivated, because everyone and their mother, besides PJ, who is messaging the inside of your buttocks, has told you that nothing related to that makes any sense from scum. But you just ignore that because HURR DEE DURR it doesn't fit into Katsuki's warped little world. You want to know why I was willing to leave when ABR signed up? Because he caused me no shortage of misery in Mafiaception, that I just didn't want to relive that. And lo and behold, you've managed to top him. So yeah, I really truly hope you're scum, because then I can have some faith in human decency again, instead of the very real possibilty that you're just a vile little twerp who knows the state of Mafiascum so much and knows his reputation so much, that you just smeared and lied your way to getting me killed. You targeted me, and when I'm posting my last thoughts, you try to act the victim and tell me that I'm wrong. Well screw you!

And let's not even get started on PJ. Did you not find it strange at all how he swallowed your crap hook, line, and sinker, yet he makes a big deal about others believing what you or other people claimed d1? Did you not find it strange how his reasoning is very surface level, and how when inconsistencies are brought up, he just tries to hand wave them away, even though they don't make sense? Don't you dare try to hold PJ up on a pedestal, because he's going to be the one to use that fake guilty against you, and he's just setting you up to lynch down the road.

I look forward to either that gun going off in your face or your body hanging limp tomorrow, because you are a detriment to this game, and it will be because of you that scum win this whole thing.

[Bulbazak]

I'm seriously tempted to hammer Hiplop just to shut Katsuki up. And if I'm right, I just want that flip to hammer Katsuki until PJ leads him up to the rope. But I doubt that'll do anything in the long run.

[Bulbazak]

Actually, you know what. I'm seething and just don't want to do this anymore.

Unvote
Vote Hiplop

Here comes the flips, Katsuki. I hope you choke on them.

[Bulbazak]

You were missed Equinox, but I don't think it mattered one way or the other.

[Bulbazak]

4.)

If anything is taken from this game, I hope it is that lying as Town should be heavily discouraged. Even little white lies can add up. If you want to change the state of a game, you should argue for it – not lie to get it. Townspeople should not have to go through the thought process of “this person lied to everybody – are they still Town?” The only liars in a game should be scum.

This. The abundant fake claims definitely muddied the waters, and Katsuki lying in general d2 paved the way for an easy scum victory. The minute he faked the guilty and then lied about a message that was 100% confirmable, the stage was already set for the end of the game. All that happened at that point was the town following the script that was layed out and scum just letting them. I probably could have still done something at the beginning of d2 to try to steer it another way, but along with wanting to use my own role, not trusting Katsuki with his own vote, wanting to test out the validity of Equinox's claim, and knowing that me vs. Kats would have to be settled in either him dying or both of us dying, I helped facilitate everything. I do think given those circumstances I made the best overall play of making sure that was taken care of and not making it to endgame, but there were just too many variables that I didn't understand to realize how catastrophic those early moments ended up being for town.

@Katsuki: Stop it. Seriously. Stop. First of all, the scum victory is all due to your constant lying and taking matters into your own hands. There's no one else to blame here. At that point I was only trying to do the best thing game-wise and keep the confusion from affecting the rest of the game, because YOU made me vs. you the priority of d2. I spent most of that day just trying to ensure that was taken care of so that wouldn't be a problem near the end of the game (And guess what, it was.). Second, it's hilarious that you're trying to say I was holding a grudge against you when it was YOU that came after me, and it was YOU that made a point of doing this 2 games in a row and trying to make my life miserable to the point that I was wondering if I had ran over your dog or something. If I had foreseen there being a problem, I would have just have /outed like I did when ABR signed up, because I didn't want to be utterly miserable while playing this game. But for some reason, I didn't anticipate a narcissist targeting and slandering me and making this game a living hell. Third, let's look at what you did vs. what I did. That d1 scum lynch? It was a policy lynch, and you trying to take credit for that is hilarious. For me, the fact that the lynch went through so quickly was evidence of scum uber-bussing, because the way it happened was wrong. You just stroked your own ego and took credit for something that happened because of town annoyance and where you really had little to do with the outcome. Then on d2 you did absolutely nothing outside of lying and then lurked for the rest of the day. D3 included more lying about actions, and when town caught you with your pants down, they rightly lynched you for it. And furthermore, you self voted and let them do it. Overall, you had zero effect on the outcome of the entire game, and the most you did was hinder and work against the town, essentially forcing their hands. Meanwhile, I spent the whole game sorting people and trying to ascertain the motivation behind their actions. And especially on d2, I was very open with my thought process. I highlighted why I had town reads on Hiplop, Snarky, and at the end, Ducks. I broke down my reasoning on certain reads, and while I would have liked to have more behind them, I was working with what little I had, knowing that I was unlikely to get more due to dying. At the end of the day, I did wagon analysis and broke down what that likely meant. I then gave my final thoughts on every single person in the game and why my reads were the way they were. I highlighted where I was conflicted but why I then came to my conclusions. And on you, I highlighted not only my conflictions with you, but why you flipping scum was the best case scenario, because you being town highlighted that you were just a horrible human being that had been allowed to do this for so long that you could put games in jeopardy and attack other players and yet feel nothing as you wouldn't be punished for it. And then you ignored all of that only to attack me on the final paragraph and ensure that it would be easy for town to never look or consider my final thoughts and reads. And then, when I was in the dead PT, I continued to scum hunt and revise reads. I moved away from UTL after I saw her claim and knew there was no way she'd do that as scum. I continued to try to figure things out. What did you do? You insulted me and the mod and acted as if it wasn't your fault that the game ended the way it did. You disgust me. Stay away from my games.

[Bulbazak]

I've said my peace. As long as he stays away from any game I'm in, I'm good.