Beneath The Mask [Endgame]

[davesaz]

/confirm

[davesaz]

The public PM suggests singleball as well. A brief skim of a wiki for persona suggests possible 3p roles.

[davesaz]

Did I mention I am both mafia and town? Also, I am Arcana.

Umm, why would you say this?

[davesaz]

davesaz, what do you think about Ramcius?

I don't do snap reads, I look for inconsistencies and forced bad logic so it's too early for that.
Which is why I'm so against town fakeclaims. Fakeclaims are by definition lies, which mess up my whole scumhunting method.
It also leads to a need to read a lot, which is one of the reasons I'm better when the gem to fluff ratio is good.

[davesaz]

Btw, what should we do if someone yet has to catch up?

I say you should first tell you're going to catch up. If you can't finish it tell what you got so far. If you haven't done any catch up after saying you were doing, expect scumreads.

If you're going to answer your own question without letting more people see it and respond, why bother asking?

Your answer bothers me. Ability / inability to keep up with the pace of posting is not AI. Having lots of RL interrupts is not AI. Not being able to distinguish scum because too many town are acting scummy is not AI.

Pedit: There is a difference between being a miller and being "both town and mafia".

[davesaz]

Not being able to distinguish scum because too many town are acting scummy is not AI.

In fact for some people this is an explicit towntell. <hint: you're looking at one of them>

[davesaz]

I still need more strikes on that list.

What do the strikes mean?

[davesaz]

nvm, that's what I get for replying inline lol

[davesaz]

do what i do:

keep a running doc/new post open in a separate tab. when you want to respond to a post, ctrl+click on the quote button on that post, then copy/paste it into the empty post

Multiquote is also a forum function!

Sometimes my thoughts on a post are important enough to deserve their own reply. Though I have not tried this "control click" thing, what's that?

Large walls and excessive numbers of posts both have negative effects on the effort needed to catch up. I tend to use the "two ears one mouth" principle. If other people have already made the point, there is often little point in "me too"ing. Sadly this position is seen by too many people as scummy.

[davesaz]

D1 is for getting a foothold in the game and sorting as many players as possible, it's the day I (and most people) are most likely to change their votes multiple times.

Or holding off and not voting instead of changing all the time, and getting scumread for that.

[davesaz]

Unless we can wifom them into making bad choices.

[davesaz]

I'm happy that your colors are colorful and sad that the only way to reliably read them is to hilight with mouse.

[davesaz]

Alisae, the happy outweighs the sad, don't apologize for doing happy things.

[davesaz]

You're welcome for the pagetop btw lol

[davesaz]

It just felt out of place.

Why?

I've only looked at a small bit of your meta but you seem to be a hyper poster and saying low activity while talking setup spec irked me.

--Math

Ok. I thought this might happen so: viewtopic.php?p=9654919#p9654919

Did that post come before or after the game filled?

[davesaz]

Work has hit an activity burst. My activity burst will be later.

[davesaz]

Oh ... Not Chara is almost certainly scum. Should be obvious if you read the ISO.

~Drixx

Now back to this. Why?

Work for a few hours is something that I can listen to with half an ear and perk up if something interesting comes up.
That means I get to catch up. Which has been extremely frustrating and occasionally entertaining.
This post sticks out. Probably, a limited number of town have special knowledge while scum and a larger town group don't have it. It is unknown whether some scum know it.

Even so, the aware town might slow play their awareness to prevent scum from being able to guess. Therefore posts which seem to lead away from awareness may not necessarily indicate scum by themselves.

[davesaz]

@RationalNumbers -- yes, I saw the Drixx post. What I'm saying in 1179 is that Not Chara voting me does not necessarily indicate scum because not all town knew who I am.
Is there something else NC did that was obvious scum?

[davesaz]

since mm4 is silent, can i interest you guys in voting Chikoritas? I really don't like how he was calling me scum since beggining, but only now tried start wagon and i yet to see case on me (shitposting in pregame and "i don't like that post about Clash of Gods" i don't consider good reasons at this stage of game)

I double iso you and Chikoritas and can't find any reference to CoG in Chikoritas. Why do you think it's that post in particular, or that it's the CoG reference and not something else in the post?

[davesaz]

I really don't like how he was calling me scum since beggining, but only now tried start wagon

you weren't my biggest scumread for a while, at a certain point me and echo both scumread you so it's a pretty good idea to wagon you now. unfortunately I can't really start wagons on multiple people at one time, that's not how it works. it's also interesting that despite this being your reasoning, you only voted us once we voted you

and i yet to see case on me

i haven't seen a case on us from you either!

("i don't like that post about Clash of Gods" i don't consider good reasons at this stage of game)

considering how it was a huge misrep of what actually happened in this game that really makes no sense i disagree with you on that one
i also don't really like 592, 595, 599

-mm4

cute, i never expressed my sr on you, so why you expected my vote earlier? In fact it was you who was constantly calling me scum, but not taking any actions or providing any case

grasping straws, when called out? Why you didn't said anything back there?

also, start wagons? You didn't voted anyone, you retracted Mulch vote soon after you voted him, so what multiple wagons you are talking? You didn't even bothered FoS me, which you can have multiple

and now, why you didn't tried convince people join wagon on me, but you showed up right after i asked people to vote you? Was you lurking and waiting?

Re: can't start multiple wagons -- nobody can start multiple wagons

at the same time

, we all have one vote. I find it vaguely scummy to try to twist that statement -- only vaguely because it's a vote on you and the OMGUS runs strong in most people.

Re: lurking and waiting -- signs point to the "different active time window" effect. For another example, I'm replying right now because this is the first available time I've had in what seems like days (and in fact probably is). When I did that double ISO I noticed that you and Chikoritas (and lots of other people) seem to have hot and cold posting windows. We can't all be Creature/LUV. <caveat: yeah I know it's a hydra, but it wouldn't be the first time I've seen a hydra have hot/cold activity>

BTW I should mention, I'm pleasantly surprised that there aren't spurts of pages, and even more pleased that there aren't spurts of non-content posts. I wish I hadn't been slammed at work the past few days, it would have been nice to actually contribute in an environment where my posts wouldn't be lost in that sea.

Pedit: Thanks, I don't know why I didn't see that.

[davesaz]

I think most of chesskid's last 6-8 posts are town motivated. Possible yellow flag if one of RN/PN turn up scum but very minor.

[davesaz]

I looked at Reck ISO and saw a lot of towny stuff.

[davesaz]

Oh, Not Chara only FOS'd me, not voted. In either case I don't see followup from whomever I asked why NC was scummy.
I'm uncertain on NC though, on ISO it's not strong either way.

[davesaz]

Well, the arcana they claimed is Hanged Man, which is associated with the gun dealer, Iwai--not with any of the cops.

Is there a way for someone who hasn't played any Persona games to find this?
Echo the point of fake claims being a thing, but it's still helpful to have arcana background. Especially if that background hints at what it might do.

[davesaz]

Oh interesting, many of the names are Tarot related.
I will advise town to refrain from pointing out (and even more so repeatedly pointing out) anything they find in the thread regarding this stuff, unless it's to prevent a preventable mislynch. Better to make scum search than put neon signs on stuff.

[davesaz]

Regarding 1299, I can see Ellibereth's repeated "don't give scum any more info" posting in pregame as potential LAMIST and I agree with a lot of the other points made. (assuming that memory seared into my eyeballs is a true memory and not trauma lol)

VOTE: Ellibereth

Still working to make sense of all this nice content. I might even be adding some hurts after I get some more quality time to actually read it at comprehension pace instead of skim pace.

Pedit: Potentially scummy arcana related posting might be good for discussion, but going back to town hunt that way probably not a good idea, IMO.

[davesaz]

Meta question, I'm pretty sure I have seen Yume before as really bad scum, unless I have alt identifications and/or memory wrong. Which game was it where she ended up being crafty scum? Would crafty scum!Yume take the risk of looking like bad scum!Yume as a way to soft clear herself as being beyond the point she'd make that kind of mistake?

[davesaz]

Smocaine, why RN, and then in your pedit what does "I think this towns" mean?

[davesaz]

your plan is bad and you continue to push it via appeal to dave

This isn't something you need to defend me from. Even if it were a good plan I'd be holding my intentions close in order to keep scum guessing.
Getting into a fight with Math on something they want to tunnel on is a good way to take the game down an unnecessary rabbit hole.

[davesaz]

we think there's likely to be one PT traitor right?

Then scum would know who Dave is. That dosen't make any sense

A traitor who can be recruited by scum team? Just having the possibility that not all PT are town is enough to rule out being able to automatically conftown them.

[davesaz]

self watcher isn't top role, why you chosed it over rolecop for N1

I wanted to go into the metaverse

yes, i saw, but it's weird to me, so i expect results from you D3

(i think you town, because i doubt scum team would give you PT fakeclaim)

because i doubt scum team would give you PT fakeclaim

What do you mean

What's up with this exchange?

[davesaz]

I suspect Smocaine for the sheeping, and Alchemist lurking doesn't make me feel good at all. Don't know if I've seen WhemeStar enough to know what normal activity looks like. Who is Maki, I forgot already.

[davesaz]

I thought Chikoritas reaction to Mulch was very town. It looked to me like they knew Mulch was being accurate.

[davesaz]

I had the impression Alchemist was a better player than he's demonstrating though,

Ouch.

Got any reads?

[davesaz]

If PN and RN end up making this about lynching one or the other, I'm choosing PN.
I think they're both town and would much prefer this stop on both sides so we can lynch scum.

[davesaz]

WhemeStar's ISO seems to lack thought. We're well beyond the point where thoughtless play is likely to be town.
HURT: WhemeStar

[davesaz]

Tunneling seems to be a Math town thing but I really should be keeping track of who does what as which alignment instead of trying to remember it. Too much danger of a false memory being a strong one.

[davesaz]

The reason given in 1714 sounds like a town reason but hard to know if it is one.

Pedit to Not Chara's post...
Re: Mulch, all I know is a tendency to post a lot, and he claims that it (hyperposting) wins scum games while getting upset that the same thing gets him lynched as town. I don't think I've played enough games with him to know if the blowup is expected in this situation, and it would be pretty easy to fake a scum if he had established a town meta for doing it.

Re: Wheme, yeah that's why it's only a FoS and not a vote.

Gotta look deeper on Eddie's response to observations about Math's meta. Dismissing mitigating factors like that is something I'd generally see as scummy. I'd expect town who don't believe a bystander's meta on a tunnel target to scumread the bystander, but I don't actually remember what that reaction was -- it's buried in the walls. And I don't know how Drixx being in the RN hydra factors in either.

Pedit2 @Drixx: Yeah, I know how to do it. The point of my post was to clarify that it's a strong thought which could be wrong. I tend to do that when town even when conf because I think saying how strong the basis of evidence is helps town.

[davesaz]

Hey, LUV is here. Thoughts on the PN/RN bidirectional tunnel? Thoughts on Yume, WhemeStar, Alchemist please.
If you say something about PN/RN and include quotes please edit heavily. The vertical screen space editing saves (along with consequent reading time reduction) is precious.

[davesaz]

so...if this was the case, massclaiming arcana would just break the game.

so i cant believe this is the case

We would probably get 1 scum at most if we massclaimed Arcana.

On the flipside, we'd not only give scum a roadmap to who all the Phantom Thieves are, but who received each character as well.

Noticed this while looking at Reck. Fairly weak town points for Brian Skies and need to backtrack what Reck was responding to.

Pedit: Thanks, I'm happy for anyone to respond to those requests.

[davesaz]

It is important to note that in the game, the main character starts with The Fool Arcana. However, here he starts with The World (I'm presuming this is because this is the only Arcana not associated with a social link and is only represented by the main character in the game). The Fool is actually a social link given to the main character by the main bad guy in the game, also known as The Holy Grail, and I'm assuming there is a strong likelihood that Arcana is scum here.

so...if this was the case, massclaiming arcana would just break the game.

so i cant believe this is the case

heh, could have scrolled back a couple. This illustrates the tradeoff between quote pyramids vs. trimming to the most recent reply.

The post that started the sequence is towny unless the arcana mentioned are not scum in which case it's a crafty way to use setup spec to line up hysteria if those arcana are discovered.
Reck's reply is towny unless he's scum who knows the analysis is correct.

Analysis: wifom, nothing can be made of the exchange. Guess I'll go back to that iso view.

[davesaz]

1521 and 1645 have me leaning town on Reck.

[davesaz]

Actually, I didn't do much day 1 in that game either. It was from day 2 onwards that I actually did stuff, and even then, it was because I had the means to do so.

so will do you do things when you have the means to do so?

+1

[davesaz]

Do I need to watch the video? I don't like watching videos...

[davesaz]

Pants are awesome please worship them.

Do you happen to have a town game link where you used this metaphor?

[davesaz]

Mulch your a self watcher?

What prompted this question?

[davesaz]

You can both agree to shut up for 24h and have a WMD armistice because this needs to stop

I think that would just stall the game sadly.

If they both stopped posting to / responding to each other it would help.
I'd like to see both slots post more about other slots than they do about each other.
Responding to the things posted about other slots would be helpful.
I can't properly sort either one if all of it is 1v1 tunnel. And I don't think either one is a plausible lynch for d1.

[davesaz]

@PN, where'd the Creature vote come from?
More Elibereth votes please.
I think I agreed with Smocaine wagon too, and we're kinda in a place where town needs a

*

wagon

*

to get some good data to work with later.

[davesaz]

Kise vla just as talk of a wagon, interesting.
Mulch an be dealt with if it's a scum gambit.
I'm still happy with elibereth but smocaine is larger and I'd rather get motion sooner.
VOTE: smocaine

[davesaz]

What did Somcaine do that made them get 8 votes

For me it's what Smocaine didn't do, like do anything useful that I noticed.

[davesaz]

What did Somcaine do that made them get 8 votes

For me it's what Smocaine didn't do, like do anything useful that I noticed.

hi dave.

even if you don't join it, do you approve me denoting the wagons as kise/smocaine/yume for the day?

I think wagons are good at this point in the day but don't feel right about "approving" things. I think it would go naturally in a reasonable direction without that.
I don't remember a specific townread on Kise. Yume feels on the scum side of null.

[davesaz]

Calling PN's push on Yume a "policy lynch" is a complete misrep. It's not even based on one factor. I see points being made about meta, flavor, setup, and Yume's lack of meaningful town activity. The one thing that gives me pause is why Yume would bring up the role in the first place.

I'd like to see something about why Smocaine is town.

E is Ellibereth, right?

Millers by definition give false (guilty) results to alignment cops. I have seen various people use the term miller when it gives incorrect results to another kind of investigation.

[davesaz]

Exhausting day Friday, catching up from bottom of 97.

[davesaz]

Wow, I thought for sure that something would be posted during all that reading.
Catchup posting by mastina is town. My objection to RN/PN tunnel was to the tunnel, not to the underlying push. Broader focus will help in reading both sides. I got something useful but time is short.

Mulch's point on Ellibereth is valid, but I don't know what scum gain by making a personality analysis case.

Have any of the wagons which have sprung up been counters to wagons on scum? That's the main reason why town need wagons, to force scum into action either bussing or pushing counters.

I've lost track of what the biggest wagon is. Need to go back and see if it's one I'm willing to push a consolidation onto. I'd be willing to flip Reckoner on a hunch that it might give me an associative to work with. Yume really needs to do something if town.

[davesaz]

VOTE: xRECKONERx

[davesaz]

VOTE: Kise

[davesaz]

Woopsy

Explain pls.

[davesaz]

Woopsy

Explain pls.

Woospy!!!!!!


Dave spit out your results btw

No calling cards were sent. I'm leaning toward keeping the innos quiet so they don't get lined up as scum kills.

What's your read on Creature? I don't remember.

[davesaz]

If the inno is outside my town pile I would personally like to know it because it would help my reads

Outside your town pile.

[davesaz]

SOMEONE FORCED ME TO TARGET EITHER A PARTICULAR PERSON OR NOONE AT ALL WITH MY ABILITY LAST NIGHT LOL

VOTE: MULCH

Also
I'm reiterating this

please discuss

Clarifying question -- you were told by Mod that you must either target player x or not use your ability?

Note to Cryer: Assuming the answer from Ellibereth is yes, this means your targeting can be manipulated. We can still use the information just have to be aware it's not 100%.

[davesaz]

Re godfather and miller, they stem from cop not each other. Game size increase ups probability of both. This is not an ai discussion so therefore not helpful.

[davesaz]

Bottom of page 143. Varsoon 3571 contains a potential (likely?) lie. I'm not going to say what atm.
I'm taking my daughter out for permit driving.
I'll read more and post some more updates later.
Strongly recommend nobody derphammers, given I know several PT's already. (no idea what the VC might look like, but with something like 10 pages to go it's possible...)

[davesaz]

VOTE: Varsoon
Obviously scum tried to kill creature and they're trying to figure out how Yume died and/or get rid of someone they think must be BP.

[davesaz]

Like, holy shit, Dave, just send me a fucking calling card.
It's that easy to sort me out.
Lynch creature.

Well, it would have been easy to pick one of you or Creature to check, if you hadn't gladiated.
I'm thinking Creature flips town non-PT BP or something and you say oh well, guess a non-PT result doesn't mean anything, don't lynch me for being wrong.
Anyone paying attention to things knows I can't do a check tonight though, I'm locked into my compulsive vig of PP.

We would still need an explanation of how you could kill Yume through a claimed busdrive.

[davesaz]

VOTE: Varsoon
Obviously scum tried to kill creature and they're trying to figure out how Yume died and/or get rid of someone they think must be BP.

Wait What???

We are a PT. We explicitly say so and have said so several times.

I'm really confused if Dave is voting Varsoon here.

~~Math

What would you claiming PT have to do with how I'm seeing Varsoon's claim and gladiate?

[davesaz]

UNVOTE:

[davesaz]

I mean ... if you don't want that pressure, you could always replace out. I'm confused by how you've handled what you were given. Wouldn't basically anyone practically beg for the freedom that your role provides? You can play completely uninhibited and ... you're kinda just lurking.

Thanks, but that's not the issue here. I'm posting about the same amount as I always do. I'm aiming to not get my fellow conftown killed by inadvertently revealing who they are. If y'all try to actually lynch one then I'll out what needs to be outed. I managed to hit our 3rd scum on my 2nd alignment check.

The topic of world switching came up. Some roles switch automatically, for example I go into metaverse automatically and force the scum with a calling card there with me. Others may get forced out after some time passes. It's a bad idea to make assumptions about motivation when talking about world switches.

These roles are so long-winded. They really needed some punctuation, it's so hard to miss something like "masonry encryptor" in the middle of a long sequence of terms. At least that explains why the topic is locked. Not a complaint really, just a comment on reading things very carefully and feedback on writing style.

[davesaz]

I'd like to see everyone's Creature read, please.
If you can back it with evidence, please do so.

[davesaz]

I'm thinking nolynch, I kill penguin as scheduled. Let's use the remaining time to ensure town has a good pool for various actions. I think chicoritas can be town, and Brian skies seemed reasonable too. Rn and pn seem town enough as well, and obviously elibereth. At this point all of these plus varsoon and creature need to update reads. I don't expect mutual townreads among the ones I've named but their scumreads are vital. Aside from e who can't tell us, and I'm not totally in sync with e's list. Doing this on tablet so lots of caps missing. No more claims unless vital information. I probably have more town reads btw, but tablet limits the ease of checking things.

[davesaz]

Got no idea what to do rn.

Kinda need a reads list. If I'm gonna go out on a limb and push town to no-lynch it better be for a good reason.

[davesaz]

As far as I remember nobody has said anything substantial since the last time I posted. Could be wrong...

[davesaz]

you targeted Yume and Creature with a flavour cop?

Well, not exactly. We targeted them with a busdrive, which according to Alisae doesn't affect them directly therefore we're not really targeting them or something. The flavour cop thing is an add-on to that, where we also find out their flavours (but scum's fakeclaims appear as their flavour to us)

Is the flavor helpful?

[davesaz]

Smocaine, what's the *?

[davesaz]

Ever think

so hard

about doing something that you

know

you've done it, even when you haven't really?

[davesaz]

Someone forced Chikoritas to target PN last night or be roleblocked. The available ability would have been neighborize.
Chikoritas did not want to do that, and they didn't unless they did it via PM.

I received "something" from someone N1.

[davesaz]

Current reads:
I'm way more confident in town reads than scum. The scum end is more like PoE then scum per se.
Much heavy lifting to do still, even though it looks like we're probably well ahead.

davesaz
Brian Skies
Ramcius
RationalNumbers
Ellibereth

Leonshade
Chara

Purple Nurple
Maki and Kaito
Smocaine

Toranaga (don't remember LUV much)
Chesskid3 (posts have rubbed me wrong the whole game but not sure why)
WhemeStar (don't remember much)

[davesaz]

if Brian is the crier, the crier is scum. if Brian isn't the crier, i can't make judgments on the alignments of either the crier or Brian. but Brian being the crier means i'm voting him.

If you're town, you're not reading the leader's posts closely enough.

[davesaz]

I honestly wouldn't believe dave if he said he's read the whole thread rn. Also unless you think we bussed everyone so far I don't see how we can be sr but hey

If you're not bottom 3, you're not a SR.

Read yes,

remembered

no. I have to be trying to remember it in order to get the eiditic (sp) thing, and >100 pages is a bit much even for me. Not to mention I wouldn't necessarily trust the memory given I also "remember" things that I thought hard about doing. (RL too, I have nightmares about "thinking" to bring my passport but getting to the airport and not having it )

[davesaz]

ramcius isn't scum, Math. trust me.

I agree it's extremely unlikely, if stated activities are true.

[davesaz]

Seems OK to me.

[davesaz]

I know enough that it's ok.

[davesaz]

No on targeting PN.

[davesaz]

PT or not PT, for completeness sake.

[davesaz]

I was under the impression that we're doing claim first, discussion second, and I approved that procedure.

[davesaz]

For Elli to be conspiracy after D1 and D2 lynches is insane. Other possibilities can wait until after the massclaim.

[davesaz]

Remember that discussion of the things we know so far can be helpful to scum in deciding what/how to fake claim.

[davesaz]

Leon is up I believe.

[davesaz]

N1 target Brian, confirm Chikoritas had him in a hood later since I got a not conspiracy result.
N2 target Penguin, N3 kill Penguin.
Confirm received the invention (can't directly confirm who it came from but it hasn't been countered that I'm aware of).
Can't confirm the motivate but that seems to have been explained.

Chikoritas got fakeclaim flavor on Kise, correct flavor on Alchemist, Creature, and Yume, and chose not to target PN after being forced to.

Did anyone claim the forcing people to target PN thing? I consider that a major clue, expect it to be either scum forcing targeting of scum, or forcing targeting of someone they thought was PGO/dangerous.

[davesaz]

i got forced to purple

are arcanas cool.

Yeah, I'm saying nobody admitted to having done it.

Not sure what you mean about arcana. Got a nice list of them...

[davesaz]

no he's saying that one of the scum got ascetized

Yes, this is possible. Also possible that it was never used, though with it being 3 shot that's much less likely than if it were 1 shot. If we run across an unclaimed ascetic it makes sense to lynch there.

[davesaz]

Are you still disabled from your dreaming god power Dave?

Haven't been told anything about being enabled.
I'm hoping it's not a case of it being the "Caroline+Justine both target someone" thing.

All the mod answers have been not at liberty to tell me yet.

[davesaz]

So I have a hood with Creature as of 5 minutes ago that I was supposed to have from daystart.

So if ya'll cool with it Creature can just claim to me and I can decide if it needs to be fully outted

Marking for reference

[davesaz]

Tinfoil: chesskid created the hood as a day action but told Creature in the hood that it was supposed to be there already (and Alisae would have refused to answer when/how it was created), Creature was a good townie who refused to reveal how the hood was created. This is a plausible chesskid scum path to the known results, but is it realistic? Yeah it can be tested, but should we consider using a noose for that testing instead of potentially wasting a good night action?

Definitely not going to agree that Creature would have doc'd his scumread chesskid voluntarily.
If chesskid is indeed town, might someone have forced Creature to target there the same method that people were forced to target PN? Would town creature withhold the info that he was forced to target chesskid?

To do: check if anyone else was forced to target or be RB'd the night before chesskid's hood showed up. I don't remember if that's the same night Chikoritas was forced toward PN or if that was a different night.

Pedit: problem here is, if you're scum double voter reflexive neighborizer the only way to know is rope you. Being a neighborizer does not make you town.

[davesaz]

If chess is scum neighborizer it is very confirmable but not AI. That's my point here.

[davesaz]

Night passes, no neighborhood.
Player says they targeted you.
You PM Alisae to create hood.
You say it's Alisae's mistake.
Alisae is bound as mod to say nothing on this either way.

Yes, I know it's tinfoil. Poking holes in logic puzzles is my day job, in the form of finding why code breaks.

[davesaz]

N1 target Brian, confirm Chikoritas had him in a hood later since I got a not conspiracy result.
N2 target Penguin, N3 kill Penguin.
Confirm received the invention (can't directly confirm who it came from but it hasn't been countered that I'm aware of).
Can't confirm the motivate but that seems to have been explained.

Chikoritas got fakeclaim flavor on Kise, correct flavor on Alchemist, Creature, and Yume, and chose not to target PN after being forced to.

Did anyone claim the forcing people to target PN thing? I consider that a major clue, expect it to be either scum forcing targeting of scum, or forcing targeting of someone they thought was PGO/dangerous.

I have claimed intent by end of day phase to do so but not yet. That was the "prepping" before.

~~Math

I think you misinterpreted.

Who is forcing people to target PN?

Separate question:
Was that ability used on

anyone else

the night Creature alledgedly targeted chesskid?

If no, then maybe Creature->chesskid was forced, which explains why he'd doc a scumread.

[davesaz]

So Chikoritas was forced to target PN on N3. We're looking for a counter to the hypothesis "Creature was forced to target chesskid N2".

Anyone else forced to "target or be rb'd" on N2?

This is relevant regardless of chesskid's claim, because if true it means

scum wanted to drive Creature's action.

That my friends is a potential clue to who scum are.

[davesaz]

It is an overreach to say that forcing someone to change worlds makes you town. It validates you have that ability, nothing more.
This is a general statement for everyone -- we should not be taking confirmation of role to imply confirmation of alignment. Exploiting assumptions is scum's path to victory here, let's deny that path.

[davesaz]

Varsoon guessed this ages ago, but I am Munehisa Iwai. My role is a Reflexive Temporary Limited Modified Strong-Willer. I give Akira the Hanged Man Arcana.

Now the fun part. Why did Mastina think we were negative utility (hint: we aren't)? Our role does not have an active, only a passive. The translation of Alisae's lovely role name (tm) is that anyone with a killing action, including scum (figured I should ask Alisae since technically it is a factional kill and not personal but yea it affects them), is told they receive a Strongman modifier for their next kill. Mastina interpreted it to mean they will be able to strongman their next kill and we are a way for them to kill Dave, so that is why she wanted us dead d1. I don't even think strongman would kill through "deathproof", but whatever. The catch? They are

told

they receive a strongman modifier - they don't

actually receive

a strongman modifier.

My goal of getting people to claim if they targeted me was a low-risk way of potentially getting a scum claim. Not very likely, but it was a possibility and basically the only shot our role had of being not useless. I would've done something better if I could but eh, only you targeting me is annoying. So, no, absolutely nothing happens if you're town and you target me (unless you're a vig or something else killing). Scum clearly interpreted Mastina's claim to mean we were a PGO or something of the like. Additional point: at least, what, 2-3 people have claimed to be forced to target me? Wouldn't the person forcing them also have to target me? Makes me think it is likely a factional ability because the way I worded my request I made it seem like I was self-watcher or something I think (I was going for that), to ward away fake claims.

Tor next!

RN, please explain how you're reading this post, without polluting your reply with

any other information

. I only want to hear what this post means

as written

.

I would appreciate it if

nobody else answers

.

Warning: I'm thinking of quick lynching you just to get rid of the bullshit. Do not say anything else but your answer to this question.

[davesaz]

Other discussion is fine, but I'd like a clean answer from RN only. Figured I'd better clarify. I can be a bit demanding at times lol.

[davesaz]

Also for the record both RN and PN are still potential scum to me.

[davesaz]

How I read what Purple Nurple said:

Player X targets Purple Nurple
Alisae sends something like <<Your kills are now strongman>> to player X over PM.
Alisae lies to player X as their kills are not strongman as they don't receive the modifier.

This would be bastard mod and hence why I don't believe it. I don't believe Alisae would in good faith send a message to someone that wasn't reasonably expected in this complicated a setup.

~~Math

Thanks, I appreciate it a lot. I wanted to make sure that this got stated cleanly so that everyone can see the potential inconsistency without it being colored by other events.

Some of your other posting implies you want to force PN to change worlds to prevent them from giving / being an actual strongman. But you don't believe the strongman is real.
Other posting implies the reason for changing worlds is to prove your role, in an environment where proving that doesn't say anything about alignment.
I'm confused about your motivation.

[davesaz]

Actually check that -- you believe the strongman is real and the report of the role is incorrect?
In a you town, PN scum scenario we can use that as a doc, given that kills happen in the world of the killer. It's not as strong as a real doc and there should be 2 scum by standard balance theory, but still it's interesting.

In a PN scum, PN lying scenario maybe the role is something dangerous to town, though we do have Ellibereth (?) who seems to have survived it?

[davesaz]

Actually check that -- you believe the strongman is real and the report of the role is incorrect?
In a you town, PN scum scenario we can use that as a doc, given that kills happen in the world of the killer. It's not as strong as a real doc and there should be 2 scum by standard balance theory, but still it's interesting.

In a PN scum, PN lying scenario maybe the role is something dangerous to town, though we do have Ellibereth (?) who seems to have survived it?

I don't understand the doc bit?

~~Math

Scum in metaverse presumably need to target their kills in metaverse. If the whole kills don't work across worlds thing is real.
So if a player is scum and forced to metaverse, kills submitted by them are limited in which players they can target.

Spelled out like that it makes me wonder why they've been able to get so many hits, which probably means it doesn't work that way to begin with. But it's a nice thought.

[davesaz]

The thing I’m most sure of is not being sure. Gonna take some work to figure it out.

[davesaz]

Did we get a full claim From Purple Nurple?

No?

People continue on about how this game is solved except we are all streaking with our goddamn pants off.

Day action submitted on Purple. If I hear a good reason to switch I will consider it but I would rather make sure the liar who says they only have actions in the real world doesn't do shit.

~~Math

So to be clear, math has a strongman kill tonight.

I don't have actions in the real world, I don't have actions period. Reading comprehension must be pretty hard though, I feel for you.

Do you mean, RN has a strongman kill

if they already had a kill

?
Or they have a strongman kill regardless?

[davesaz]

Why would town rn feel the need to get permission to target pn?

[davesaz]

We have to figure who can be lying, and lynch in that set.
Or figure out who was avoiding Kise and Mulch lynches from the not-conf set and lynch there.

[davesaz]

I almost went ahead and hammered last night before going to bed.
I meant to doc varsoon, that's the thing where I made a comment about thinking so hard about doing something you fool yourself into thinking you've actually done it.

[davesaz]

The setup was confusing (commas between things to separate the modifiers highly recommended if you do similar things again ) but great.
Would I have been told what all the arcana do, or randomly pick one and see what the result was?

Chesskid repeatedly saying that things made him conf had tipped me off, I would have wagoned that in a heartbeat.
Math, I do agree with your playing it like an IC comment, but as usual RL kicked me in the ass right when it would have been nice to have unlimited time.

[davesaz]

The alts are confusing me, who is that?