Micro 813 - Game Over

[Antihero]

hello hello

[Antihero]

VOTE: antihero

You can't trust an antihero

ofc you can

we may not be in it for the right reasons but we're on the right side

[Antihero]

okay...

i like oath and guilty lion so far

mafmen and manatee... not so much

VOTE: mafmen

[Antihero]

VOTE: ManateeDude

for hopping off a promising L-2 wagon and keeping us in RVS longer

^yeah, this^

manatee calling for the wagon and then lol-kicking-off-the-wheels once he gets it is a little gross

33 rly rubs me the wrong way but idon't rly know why... i guess it feels a tinge buddyish and i think it's weird mafmen piggybacks on guiltylion's subjective p1 gut townreads but ignores the real meat of guiltylion's early posts (the manatee vote).

[Antihero]

okay...

i like oath and guilty lion so far

mafmen and manatee... not so much

VOTE: mafmen

Could you explain your reasoning?

for oath and guilty...? first impression of oath's p2 posting is newbtown to me. she feels engaged and looking for reasoning without laying on the I SEEK THE REASONS OF TRUTH thing so much it feels artificial.

from guilty's vote, i like where his head's at. it also kind of sort of flows from my mafmen scumread, 28-33 sort of feel like a town-scum post sequence if mafmen is indeed scum (yeahyeahyeah, house of cards, mafmen hasn't flipped and all but whatever. that's what i think)

[Antihero]

im still not seeing the case against me
im sure manatee isnt scum but w/e
VOTE: Antihero
until i get an explanation my vote is placed here

i mean.... it's right there in 37

[Antihero]

I don't like Manatee. At all.

His first RVS vote seemed off to me, then Post 21 came and just really really felt off.

Manatee, please explain why I shouldn't vote you?

(I'm not voting him till I get a VC in case of accidental lolhammer)

this doesn't feel like good faith engagement. what "explanation" would manatee reasonably have rn? it'll be a pithy "nuh-uh" (which is exactly what he gave) or flailing

not to mention there's clearly 2 votes ON THIS PAGE in a 2 page game so the "accidental lolhammer" concern feels disingenuous

this+korina's next post feels like piling onto a popular scumread and trying to look reasonable without actually getting hands dirty and voting him

[Antihero]

im still not seeing the case against me
im sure manatee isnt scum but w/e
VOTE: Antihero
until i get an explanation my vote is placed here

i mean.... it's right there in 37

try harder, i see nothing there

33 rly rubs me the wrong way but idon't rly know why... i guess it feels a tinge buddyish and i think it's weird mafmen piggybacks on guiltylion's subjective p1 gut townreads but ignores the real meat of guiltylion's early posts (the manatee vote).

dude...

[Antihero]

tbh the best case for manatee being town rn is a combination of taking heat from some questionable (and timid) corners + mafmen feels kind of white knighty here

[Antihero]

i mean hes the only player i recognise here so i guess im wking him because of that?
besides i really dont like the case against him so i would defend him either way

neat

so who's scum?

[Antihero]

Spoiler: manatee's iso

First ree

VOTE: MafMen

This is obviously scum guys, their name even says they’re mafia!

Wagon this fam.

VOTE: MafMen

i love Land O'Lakes cheese

I didn't know they made cheese!!!

VOTE: Mafmen

A bandwagoner!

VOTE: Oath

I like this flavor

Same

okay...

i like oath and guilty lion so far

mafmen and manatee... not so much

VOTE: mafmen

Could you explain your reasoning?

VOTE: ManateeDude

for hopping off a promising L-2 wagon and keeping us in RVS longer

A meme wagon? Thats why your SRing me?

People are pushing me for a rvs vote? I was told ms meta was weird but w/e

I don't like Manatee. At all.

His first RVS vote seemed off to me, then Post 21 came and just really really felt off.

Manatee, please explain why I shouldn't vote you?

Because for some reason meme votes are scummy. But im town.

(I'm not voting him till I get a VC in case of accidental lolhammer)

Im getting town vibes from oath. I like their tone and posts.

all these are really bland posts. what does he do as scum: shit his pants and not post at all or what?

whatever

if "all the wagons" are town, who's scum?

[Antihero]

one of the voters

ill make a detailed meta thing when i get to a comp

wow, so you're saying there's scum within a group of 6 people?

bold prediction

[Antihero]

/sigh

ok i guess i shouldn't have gotten snarky

but really, i feel like the boring "OMG META" is detracting from a more interesting conversation to be had from the "wagons are town" premise

do the town of salem stuff (whatever that entails) but... yeah. where do you go from there?

[Antihero]

Anti, please read this game and tell me if my concern about accidentally hammering is valid.

If you don't want to, I'l save you the effort: I was in a hydra with a friend, we were a one-shot vigi. I accidentally hammered the vengeful townie thinking they were at L-1, town lost about 3 pages later.

Does my concern sound reasonable now?

uhhhhhhhhhh.... i mean... i wasn't denying the existence of quickhammers or that quickhammers aren't a bad thing, champ. that'd be fucking bananas.

my point is that your failure to acknowledge manatee only had 2 votes at the time of fussing over a quickhammer is super lazy at best and lamist at worst.

[Antihero]

i dont have any srs rn
i have trs which were all wagons from the first vc

townreads are cheap

scumreads are where you run the risk of making enemies

[Antihero]

[oath]
---
[guiltylion, otter, invisibility, manatee]
---null---
[blackstar]
---
[mafmen, korina]

will do little write up when i have a moment but this is where i'm at w reads

[Antihero]

[oath]
---
[guiltylion, otter, invisibility, manatee]
---null---
[blackstar]
---
[mafmen, korina]

will do little write up when i have a moment but this is where i'm at w reads

back

oath is a nicely developing townread for me. thought her entrance was townish and i like 100 (i'm on a phone so links are hard but it's at the top of the page.) original thoughts plus suspicion of invis feels towny

guiltylion's posting is pretty good so far and otter's is ok. invisibility's loosey goosey play seems kind of towny to me, doesn't rly seem calculated or agenda driven. i like that he voted blackstar too. i don't think manatee's done anything super readable himself but the fact he's getting flak from 2 of my scumreads and white knighted by the third pushes him to the north side of null.

blackstar sort of feels like he's trying to keep his head down and not make too much of a splash BUT give a different reason for voting manatee than everyone else to avoid setting off alarm bells for being too sheepy.

already talked about korina and mafmen. not impressed w korina's recent strawman nor am i buying mafmen's explanation for having no apparent suspects

[Antihero]

i wouldn't expect you to have mature reads nor would i expect you to fully commit to them this early. that's insane.

that said, i still can't wrap my head around this philosophy you're selling. so... what exactly needs to happen before you start scumhunting and how do you get there?

[Antihero]

UNVOTE:
VOTE: korina

[Antihero]

What strawman? And also, my TR on Blackstar is based on this game I ran. His tone feels similar to this game

Post 91 addresses Post 60 like it was saying "quickhammers don't happen" or "quickhammers aren't bad," both of which are laughable premises and ALSO not what 60 was saying at all.

also not seeing what you're apparently seeing re: blackstar meta

also is it me or is invisibility too scummy to be scum.

it's you. what's scummy about invis to begin with?

Manatee imo is kinda sus if you are asking for my read on him. It's been pointed out before i think, 51 and 77 feel a little bit defensive and manatee isn't exactly a new player so you can't forgive him for that.

april join date is still pretty new imo, but that aside newness doesn't correlate with defensiveness nor does defensiveness correlate with being scum and YOU aren't new enough to still think that

is this theater guiltylion? are you going to vote korina soon or what?

i revoke my statement on guiltylion being town for now

this is a dopey reason to go back on a townread

[Antihero]

invisibility is just tossing around votes and joining wagons, something normally people would scumread him for but i think it is too carefree to be read as scum.

those are just bad reasons to scumread someone to begin with, esp early game.

so.... congrats on not pushing a facile scumread i guess...?

some new players as town really care about being scumread most more experienced players as town get more apathetic about scumread unless they see the scumread as inconsistent and scummy or they are going to be lynched.

some people just have short fuses and don't like being called scum (me being one of them). that's why "defensiveness" sucks as a scumtell

is it? i was going to mark guilty as solid town because usually town does not completely 180 a case they just built and admit they are wrong.

errr... what's this now? i lost track of what you're talking about.

[Antihero]

1) That's not a strawman, that's a legit concern about quickhammering again on accident. Keyword: ON ACCIDENT.
I quickhammered in MCFM because I miscounted on Doom and thought he was at L-2, not L-1.

you CAN count to 2 tho... right?

2) Looking at how Blackstar was playing that game feels similar to how he was in this game (before he replaced out).

i actually think he looks a smidge looser lipped in the town game you posted but ..... ok? sick read, bro

Currently, I suspect Guilty, Manatee, and Invis, (and correct me if I'm wrong on this), but, you guys think Manatee is lynchbait, Invis is something (probably lynchbait) and Guilty is town, so why would I try to wagon those people if the general consensus is that they're town?

ehhhhhhh....

i think guilty would definitely be an uphill battle for you but neither manatee nor invis are drawing many explicit townreads.

[Antihero]

Also, if I'm hammered while I'm asleep:
Oka and Blackstar are town.
I don't like Manatee, Invis or Guilty.
Anti is in a weird spot of being able to go both ways very easily.
Everyone else I don't know.

alright...

neither the AtE nor the naked reads list are very moving to me sooooo.... on with your explanations i guess...?

kind of wish i had a better otter read but that'll have to wait until monday i suppose

Scum POE : Invisibility, Korina, OkaPoka (probably will change later)

how could you possibly know now how the read's going to change...?

[Antihero]

jeez really?

i'd buy "i didn't look at the votes at all" way before "i can't count to 5." i just feel like i'm being lied to when you double down on that

whatever tho i'm getting bored beating this dead horse

[Antihero]

Scum POE : Invisibility, Korina, OkaPoka (probably will change later)

how could you possibly know now how the read's going to change...?

I don't like this.
I really don't.

Anti, please explain why scumreads wouldn't change through-out the course of the game.

oh joy, another strawman

changing reads are a thing. i get that. that should be implied for ANY reads list, especially one as early as this

i'm asking how he's claiming one of his scumreads are probably going to move to a townread (which is what i inferred from the placement of the parenthetical in the scum tier) bc that's a really oddly specific thing to predict at this point. not to mention it would necessitate him going back on my town "lean" (convenient, appease me now go-after me later) OR going back on an "almost definitely town" read (another bizarre thing to predict at this point given the confidence behind "almost definitely" word choice)

[Antihero]

I don't see why town would want to try to get a selfhammer, but I do get why scum would want to try to get that.

well dude...... i mean....

i don't see why town would self hammer

but i do get why scum would

[Antihero]

mafmen seems like an abrasive and unlikeable player in general (sorry)

fwiw, everyone (including mafmen) has been pretty mellow this game. i think i've been a little abrasive esp w the last round of posts but i'd say this is a nontoxic game

[Antihero]

KHHHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAANNNNN

[Antihero]

hwat the fuck

/shrug

idk what you're in a tizzy about. you hammered a scumread, what's there to apologize for?

[Antihero]

discussion time is overrated

10 page day 1 for a micro is reasonable

[Antihero]

you weren't wrong to hammer

whatever

waiting on khan now

[Antihero]

Anti what do you make of Oka's immediate "Maf is scum" pivot? on one hand it feels genuine but I kinda think it's a scummy position to hold cause I agree that the hammer wasn't really that bad there

yeah i think oka's DISCUSSION TIME grandstanding is scummy. given how ingrained the pernicious "longer days are always better" is in the site-meta, i'm not surprised to hear criticism come up after that hammer but oka is the one that made the L1 vote and that comes with intent. you don't put someone (especially someone threatening to self hammer) at L1 and then get to be appalled at a hammer

[Antihero]

would like to hear more from antihero

i mean... i'm a pretty active poster so you could reasonably assume that i'd weigh in

any particular reason for that poke?

[Antihero]

reviewing...

still think oath is town

still leaning town on guiltylion (and this game's p fucked if he's not given the ciphers here)

mafmen i would feel a lot better on if he just hammered wo apology bc even given that korina was town i still think it was a good hammer. the recoil kind of nixes that for me bc now i'm wondering if the knowledge that korina was town was what caused mafmen's freak-out

still scumreading oka's lamist posting

burning the rest of my reads list and resetting.

VOTE: oka

[Antihero]

i mean sure call it LAMIST for me to want more discussion time, but i have still yet to see someone disprove the idea that more discussion time is good for town.

it's a newbish idea that should be outgrown as soon as you see a game where days linger past when ppl are ready for a flip and breed apathy

and you telling me "talk more" doesn't make me post more readable content. it's just more lamist posting.

[Antihero]

and yes i can be appalled for a hammer, doesn't matter if mafmen apologized for it or not, a quickhammer is still a quickhammer and now all we have to do is believe his apology or not. i don't believe his apology, you can if you want.

masterfully missess the point

you put korina at L1. why do that for any other reason than wanting him dead? if you really wanted more discussion, why wouldn't you just.... you know.... NOT put korina at L1?

[Antihero]

oh, bullshit

[Antihero]

Dont see scum!oka here.

wow, thanks professor

any more insightful commentary for today ooooooor we'll just see you same time tomorrow?

[Antihero]

now i remember why i quit mafia

[Antihero]

honestly, manatee apparently having a lurker scum meta makes mafmen's townread on him look pretty fucking ridiculous now

[Antihero]

ok well off for the weekend

mod, v/la sat and sun

UNVOTE:

regularly scheduled sarcasm will resume on monday

[Antihero]

Tampa Bay is home to Raymond James Stadium!

... anyway... back

[Antihero]

Spoiler: quick capsule review of invis' recent posting

i'm a lylo liability

i'm a lylo liability

i'm a lylo liability

i'm a lylo liability

i'm a lylo liability

i'm a lylo liability

i'm a lylo liability

i'm a lylo liability

i'm a lylo liability

#$%@#

[Antihero]

@Invisibility

that response makes me want to rip off my eyelashes

But do you find it alignment indicative?

Also, why Korina and not someone else on the manatee wagon if you think he's lynchbait?

no
and
that is a good idea
VOTE: BlackStar

but... see... what is this...?

like... why wouldn't invis just spit out a reason for korina (not like there aren't any) instead of this LOLRANDOM vote change? it looks like the sort of spontaneous thing town would do that scum would balk at and invis doesn't seem slick enough to try to fake it

[Antihero]

yah I'm good with an Invisibility lynch first I decided. He's been posting elsewhere on-site and not here, despite being the most likely lynch

hmmmmm...... yeaaaaah...

[otter, invisibility, manatee-slot, mafmen, oka]

^whoever's town in there needs to step it up

[Antihero]

invis scum game: viewtopic.php?f=83&t=76296
invis town game: viewtopic.php?f=83&t=76476

i cannot tell the fucking difference...

jfkl;sajkldjaf;lejmnfkalsjdklwaefjiljsakldm;elsjfaljdklfsda

[Antihero]

ok yeah, you have to try to 1v1 me at some point or you're p much hosed

[Antihero]

so.... my treatment of invis isn't actually scummy

it's just that you need some way to break into the me/oath/gl townbloc at some point or else it's almost impossible for you to win

plz stop me when i get something wrong, oka

[Antihero]

neat

VOTE: oka

[Antihero]

/shrug, i called you scum. you didn't correct me.

you also didn't correct me when i said my treatment of invis wasn't scummy

[Antihero]

but atp the mud sling kind of only makes sense if invis is a bus and you need to chain a mislynch off of it

BUT HEY i'm sure that's way off base and there really is something sketchy about how i'm reading invis

...right?...

[Antihero]

reviewing...

still think oath is town

still leaning town on guiltylion (and this game's p fucked if he's not given the ciphers here)

mafmen i would feel a lot better on if he just hammered wo apology bc even given that korina was town i still think it was a good hammer. the recoil kind of nixes that for me bc now i'm wondering if the knowledge that korina was town was what caused mafmen's freak-out

still scumreading oka's lamist posting

burning the rest of my reads list and resetting.

VOTE: oka

yah I'm good with an Invisibility lynch first I decided. He's been posting elsewhere on-site and not here, despite being the most likely lynch

hmmmmm...... yeaaaaah...

[otter, invisibility, manatee-slot, mafmen, oka]

^whoever's town in there needs to step it up

if your question is an attempt at good faith interaction, you're failing

[Antihero]

gimme three names not 5

oh... ok

Spoiler:

otter,invisibility,manatee-slot
otter,invisibility,mafmen
otter,invisibility,oka
otter,manatee-slot,invisibility
otter,manatee-slot,mafmen
otter,manatee-slot,oka
otter,mafmen,invisibility
otter,mafmen,manatee-slot
otter,mafmen,oka
otter,oka,invisibility
otter,oka,manatee-slot
otter,oka,mafmen
invisibility,otter,oka
invisibility,otter,manatee-slot
invisibility,otter,mafmen
invisibility,manatee-slot,oka
invisibility,manatee-slot,otter
invisibility,manatee-slot,mafmen
invisibility,mafmen,oka
invisibility,mafmen,otter
invisibility,mafmen,manatee-slot
invisibility,oka,mafmen
invisibility,oka,otter
invisibility,oka,manatee-slot
manatee-slot,otter,mafmen
manatee-slot,otter,oka
manatee-slot,otter,invisibility
manatee-slot,invisibility,mafmen
manatee-slot,invisibility,oka
manatee-slot,invisibility,otter
manatee-slot,mafmen,invisibility
manatee-slot,mafmen,oka
manatee-slot,mafmen,otter
manatee-slot,oka,invisibility
manatee-slot,oka,mafmen
manatee-slot,oka,otter
mafmen,otter,invisibility
mafmen,otter,manatee-slot
mafmen,otter,oka
mafmen,invisibility,otter
mafmen,invisibility,manatee-slot
mafmen,invisibility,oka
mafmen,manatee-slot,otter
mafmen,manatee-slot,invisibility
mafmen,manatee-slot,oka
mafmen,oka,otter
mafmen,oka,invisibility
mafmen,oka,manatee-slot
oka,otter,mafmen
oka,otter,invisibility
oka,otter,manatee-slot
oka,invisibility,mafmen
oka,invisibility,otter
oka,invisibility,manatee-slot
oka,manatee-slot,mafmen
oka,manatee-slot,otter
oka,manatee-slot,invisibility
oka,mafmen,manatee-slot
oka,mafmen,otter
oka,mafmen,invisibility

BUT HEY i'm sure that's way off base and there really is something sketchy about how i'm reading invis

...right?...

at this point i'm just assuming that's a "no"

[Antihero]

unless anti is invis scumbuddy?

you picked the fight and now you're going to pretend you don't know what i'm talking about?

[Antihero]

worst case scenario imo is scum!antihero because he can argue his way out of being scum and probably get us to lynch anyone else while we are at it lol

i'd say you're less "just stating possibilities" and more "actively trying to sew paranoia"

[Antihero]

and the fact that the above quote was TOTALLY unsolicited from anyone else kind of belies this already:

im not going to push you until we get invis flip lol

[Antihero]

I'm still a lil tempted to pivot to Mafmen

like given the game state, who are being active posters vs who is inactive, and the consensus scumreads on Invis/Maf, the only way this game state really makes sense is if third scum is Otter/Manatee and the team as a whole has given up

worst case scenario where town!Invisibility and scum!Oka or scum!Oath, then Invisibility mislynch would be setting us up for chaos tomorrow

that's why we need content from those Otter/Manatee slots

worst case scenario imo is scum!antihero because he can argue his way out of being scum and probably get us to lynch anyone else while we are at it lol

did GL ask you for your opinion on me? did anyone...?

no?

unsolicited then

you. picked. this. fight.

[Antihero]

is there a reason why you're not saying why i would be scummy if invis is scum...

instead of acting like you never said anything and desperately wanting me to drop it?

[Antihero]

...whereas the other ppl here NOT frustrated at reading invis...?

you know something everyone else doesn't?

[Antihero]

ok i recall very vividly why i stopped playing this game

[Antihero]

your posting style makes it pretty hard to win an argument against you

idek what that means

you're the one trying to get a rise out of me by screaming "FAKE" and i'm the one trying to sidetrack...?

idg that either...

[Antihero]

some people just have short fuses and don't like being called scum (me being one of them). that's why "defensiveness" sucks as a scumtell

^i mean... i'll own that i get pissy w ppl who scumread me (distinguishing between scum and townies with bad or nonexistent opinions is awful and, ultimately, why playing this game is just not for me bc THAT IS THE GAME)

the rest of that's in your head tho, man. i'm not any "better" just bc of my posting style and my reads are about average.

[Antihero]

UNVOTE:

checking out for today and maybe tomorrow and won't leave at L2

[Antihero]

yeah... atp invis has to go

I also have complicated feelings about GL that I want to explore before the end of the day and don't have time to right now.

most interesting sentence in above post

Mafmen is a strong scumread. There are some posts that feel fake to me (the reactions to the Korina hammer come to mind. When I get more time later tonight I'll come back to this thought). It continues to bother me how hesitant he is with his scumreads. When he does finally come up with some reads, he gives {Invis, Korina, Oka} based entirely on PoE and ends up voting Korina D1 and Oka D2, still based on PoE. Sixteen pages in and there's still no substance to this read other than he thinks the argument between Oka and Anti is contrived (so why not scumread Anti as well? because it's not popular to do so?) So, in a scumteam of Maf and Invis, both are scumreading each other while never voting each other, and they both end up voting Korina D1 and Oka D2. Lynching either of these peeps should give us some good info.
So, in a scumteam of Maf and Invis, both are scumreading each other while never voting each other, and they both end up voting Korina D1 and Oka D2. Lynching either of these peeps should give us some good info.

that scumread...

(i mean... mafmen is kind of explicitly scumreading me)

honestly, the worst thing mafmen's done is the hammer reaction but it could easily be genuine

are invis and mafmen really scumreading each other...?

[Antihero]

Interesting how? Be explicit.

literally. your GL read is the thing that most piques my curiosity, mostly bc you characterize it as "complicated" and bc most ppl have GL as solid town

things that are different are interesting to me.

thats because anti was furthest down the list so i stuck him in poe with oka
and then i saw their argument and it solidified it for me

jfc

i mean... to be fair, it is pretty laughable

[Antihero]

someone tell me where I'm wrong here or why this isn't what happened

bc, like korina, they're bumbling and/or make awful posts and you're mentally imposing a scum agenda on bad (or nonexistent) posting

[Antihero]

ok yeah recent posting still doesn't get invis a ticket to lylo

VOTE: invisibility

[Antihero]

someone tell me where I'm wrong here or why this isn't what happened

my working theory: [invis, oka, manatee]

me+mafmen are designated fall guys after invis bus

things like manatee popping up out of nowhere to defend oka, invis' random throwaway blackstar vote, and invis listing manatee as lynchbait makes sense to me w this

[Antihero]

I think we are going to need to see if manateedude makes a big post or not before we pass further judgement onto him. Manateedude being scum points to mafmen being scum, but mafmen can also be scum while manateedude is town so mafmen is the safer lynch imo/

so does this

[Antihero]

is it.... because i called you scum?

[Antihero]

your posting says otherwise

[Antihero]

your posting says otherwise

Im gut SRing you

your posting doesn't suck bc you're "gut SRing" me

your posting sucks bc you're not even trying to engage or otherwise look town in any way

[Antihero]

ugh

not particularly surprised

this is what happens when half the game essentially isn't playing the game

[Antihero]

off both: Manatee

tbf, that's bc he just hasn't been here

[Antihero]

VOTE: MM

I dont make an effort to look town as either alignments

congrats on never playing to your win condition

[Antihero]

...so Oka has a sr on Anti too? In a world where Oka and Manatee are scum- would they be so bold as to try to break the hardest town read in the game,

/shrug

not that impressive. he doesn't need to get me lynched (nor does it look like he's trying to), just one more townie

[Antihero]

why would GL need to be scum if otter is....?

[Antihero]

i think i screwed up the oath read for a couple reasons but i'm never voting her for today and she's been more pleasant to play w than a lot of this playerlist so i think i'll forget i thought that

i think oka's my game betting read

mafmen and manatee are both inscrutable and i could see neither, either, or both being scum wo surprise but it's a craps shoot

i think oka's been explicitly scummy tho

[Antihero]

what does "i think oka's my game betting read" mean

game betting read = person i want to vote

bc it's lylo. hence, game bet

[Antihero]

neat...

so who're you going to vote, mm?

[Antihero]

tbf, a 3 man quick hammer is hard to coordinate so i'm not putting much stock into "no quickhammer" spec rn

[Antihero]

yeah i think i should here

VOTE: antihero

that said, screw you if you're town

[Antihero]

like since Anti/Oath/Oka/myself have all been around, either Otter is confirmed scum to you or Manatee

oh lol wait i see what you're saying

if mafmen is adamant about manatee being town that narrows the scum pool to everyone else. since it's confirmed there has to be one scum outside of those given manatee!town, that would make otter confscum

ok yeah now i see what you're saying

[Antihero]

The entire scumteam cannot be within {GL, Anti, Oath, Oka} or else they'd have been able to all vote you and be done with the game, especially since Manatee wasn't really around to see any shenanigans and change his vote. Meaning either Manatee or me must be scum, and if you're TRing Manatee it must be me.

but you arent scum nor is manatee
so
¯\_(ツ)_/¯

hito shrug is for dismissing opinions

not arguing literally impossible things

[Antihero]

listen
they both feel townie so im not going to immediately mark them down as scum
i would much rather change a scumread

but i feel im right there too

so im at a loss

so, to be 100% clear, you know exactly why what you're arguing is impossible but you're doing it anyway?

[Antihero]

@Otter : That makes me feel like Maf is definitely scum - and your slip signals that you didn't realize that acquiting the 4 of us AND inadvertently "confirming" both Manatee and Maf as town only leaves room for you as scum- it's you and one of Maf/Manatee for sure. Could be both, but you're there either way.

VOTE: Otter

ok wait a second what IS this all about...?

/looking....

Post 532 why are you giving up on sorting mafmen?

[Antihero]

MafMen voting him and also still doubling down on Otter and Manatee townreads is insane. Literally game-losing behavior if he's town.

well... yeah

but technically bad town is sadly a thing (and that's what i'm trying to suss out rn)

[Antihero]

Given MafMen scum, why does Manatee vote him right out the gate if they're paired together?

wifom? towncred?

manatee knows i hard scumread mafmen so maybe he thought he could get me on board?

if mafmen flips red manatee becomes obv town. if we lynch manatee first, he flips red, mafmen would also seem scum and town wins.

thus i think mafmen is the fall guy

... so wait, do you still think mafmen is scum...?

[Antihero]

... so wait, do you still think mafmen is scum...?

oh wait i think i see what you're saying. so you're saying manatee's play is to bus mafmen and then ride the towncred... got it

pedit: lol

[Antihero]

brainstorming: i can think of a couple reasons why maf is still holding onto this

>he's scum and otter is town: it's kind of an appeasement thing. he doesn't want to piss otter off too much/ give him impetus to omgus

>he's scum and otter is scum: manatee's vote and absense of a quickhammer painted maf into an unexpected corner. at that point, he can either turn on his manatee read (LOL, that's the only read he's insisted on this whole game) OR acknowledge otter is scum and bus (umfavorable). so he takes the third option and sticks with nonsensical reads

since he's acknowledging that it is an irrational position, i think one of the above two are infinitely more likely than just technical incompetence

VOTE: mafmen

[Antihero]

well you've demanded this whole time that manatee's town and you've said as much in no uncertain terms that manatee's play is outside his scum range

so... otter has to be scum and he just played a tight game...

no?

[Antihero]

Genuinely you think it's more probable that maf is scum and otter is town?

what makes maf more scum than manatee aside from maf's read? do you objectively think it's not possible for manatee/otter scum?

maf's read is what i have to work with so i'm working w it

can you explain why town!maf behaves this way?

[Antihero]

UNVOTE:

[Antihero]

mafmen -> manatee -> anti

scumteam

sheep me to victory

what is this for...?

[Antihero]

got a couple more hours today of repetitive stuff to mull this over, but where i'm at:

i'll bet the game on GL-town at this point. if i messed up on that, then just fucking lol

same w oath. and while i'm not rly on her otter train for the reason she's saying, i think he might be scum anyway

oka has yet to do anything town to me (add empty bluster that's obviously not going to convince anyone of anything to the list of scummy things oka's done over the course of this game)

mafmen hasn't swayed me, i still think he's squirming in an awkward position bc actually voting otter is suboptimal for him

manatee's the slot we should've PLed day 1 but didn't :\ i guess i tend to think i see "pocketing" paranoia more from town? f idk

[Antihero]

VOTE: oka

[Antihero]

ok

[Antihero]

ok back

what's happening here...?

[Antihero]

1. How do you feel about voting Manatee?
2. Can you explain to me why you are so sure Oath is town and not scum pushing a mislynch here?
3. Can you explain to me what you think Oka's endgame strategy is? (Oath, I'd like you to answer that one as well)

1. not voting manatee over mafmen or oka. no, he hasn't played the game but PL time has passed so i guess i update my blacklist now
2. well, mainly bc i don't think oka's a mislynch. if i'm choosing between oka being scum and oath completely snowing me, i'll take oka being scum and if i'm wrong then gg but i've been ready to take this dive for a while
3. push a mafmen ---> manatee chainlynch

[Antihero]

not inherently, no

why would it be?

[Antihero]

you seem to be assuming technical competence on manatee's part

i'm not

[Antihero]

huh.......... that does look different

UNVOTE: for a sec

[Antihero]

oath could you go over your reason for thinking mafmen isn't scum real quick plz?

[Antihero]

mafmen has
a) quicklynched korina
b) gone off the rails with his manateedude defense
c) has managed to take irrational positions that make no sense to anyone, not even to himself
d) is not putting effort in explaining is reads at all

also like, with this case

all those things suck and are anti-town, but none of them are scummy? like I don't see good reasons for town or scum to do them. but you are presenting them very firmly as if you are certain he's scum. there's paranoia missing

tbf

b is a good point and now that manatee's play here is clearly more resembling his supposed scum-meta and diverging from his play in the town game otter linked, it's looking less sucky and anti-town and more agenda-driven

i also think c is a good point and it indicates bad/unfortunate scum play on mafmen's part. like... it'd be sucky and anti-town if mafmen didn't KNOW his play in voting me was egregiously suboptimal from a town!him POV but that clearly wasn't the case

i would add "e) denying that scumhunting CAN happen in an arbitrary window of time" to oka's case

[Antihero]

right...

so how do you distinguish "non enthusiastic town" and "scum"?

[Antihero]

um... ok

well in this game, i would describe manatee's posting style as "barely posting at all and never posting content." i think his ONLY content over this 30 page game is "gut scumreading" me and saying that you're "pocketing" him

in the donner party game where he was town, i would describe manatee's posting style as "rarely posts, but actually posts content when he does". he posted about twice as frequently as he did here, he evaluated specific posts and made specific points, made reads lists, and even took a crack at making a case

i don't see much similar about the posting style between these two games

[Antihero]

an Oka/Maf/Manatee team almost feels like the best fit to me, but then I don't really see what Oka's path to winning there is or an explanation for his play

as sad as it would be, i think it might be maf/manatee/oath and oath just got stuck w a shitty team

and as annoying as oka can be, he might be town

[Antihero]

-MafMen refuses to scumread Manatee beyond all logical explanation

that + the otter situation + the rigmarole of even GETTING scumreads to begin with is a level of derp that i think town!mafmen doesn't really possess

[Antihero]

ok.... so the only plausible team i can come up w that doesn't involve mafmen is: oka, manatee, otter

[Antihero]

not implausible........

BUT that also means mafmen is just soooooooooo IMPOSSIBLY BAD

[Antihero]

lucky said the posting style is similar

no matter how bad scum is they dont make 4 posts in a game

thats just fucking retarded on so many levels
in the games ive played with him hes posted a lot more

its clear to see its a wim thing

so, now manatee's nonposting is evidence he's town...? what the fuck?

how do you know the difference between manatee lurking as scum and manatee as town not having "wim"? specifically

If its not clear its a wim thing you guys are impossibly unobservant.

yeah, you're right i should clearly be able to read a big pile of nothing. JEEZ I'M SO FUCKING STUPID

not implausible........

BUT that also means mafmen is just soooooooooo IMPOSSIBLY BAD

gtfo
the amount of times ive seen scum call me bad to make me doubt myself is way to fucking high

fuck off

[Antihero]

Maf isn't playing to any wincon - nothing he does is beneficial to town, but it's extremely unbeneficial as scum.

rly? i don't think i agree w that.

i think his early play has been in the service of defending manatee and delaying giving stances by insisting reads weren't possible, both of which advance a scum win con in a situation where manatee is also scum. i think his late game play can be explained by bad scum play forced by the non quick hammer earlier today. IN FACT his refusal to give new reads or any kind of thought process makes it look like he's turtling until his lynch and avoiding giving associative tells. yeah, it's not moriarty-level scumplay but it makes a bit of sense.

whereas, if he's town i can't rationalize mafmen's play at all

[Antihero]

even lurking scum doesnt give out that little content
manatee atleast tries to look town as scum
like
really tries
i caught him and his bud day 1 once and he went through a lot of effort to change my mind iirc

id argue hes more enthusiastic as scum then town

that's the EXACT opposite of what you said earlier

but yeah as he said he freezes as scum, his wolf meta is trash
as town he feels more actually in the loop rather than not

[Antihero]

but... you know... now that you're here, maybe give evidence of manatee being "actually in the loop" this game?

[Antihero]

jfc

[Antihero]

mafmen what are your reads on everyone?

don't need a wall, just a sentence or partial sentence for every other player

[Antihero]

There is something wrong with Oka's vote. Period. That isn't how this game is played.

ok.... i think oka's play surrounding the day 1 hammer was scummy AND i think oka's drop-off in activity and effort at endgame could be a red flag. but both of these things have plausible town alternate explanations.

what exactly is wrong with oka's vote? is it that you think it looks like an attempted quickhammer or what?

[Antihero]

ok.... well i can't be scum to you given that i'm not quickhammering you

sooooo... who out of GL/oath/manatee is scum now?

[Antihero]

no, no, no, this is not a "deal with it tomorrow" thing

i am seeking a legitimate read from you and i have yet to find one. i've been clawing at the manatee one and it makes ZERO sense and you still have an iron vice grip on it despite it not making sense.

what is it from oath and GL that make them town-beyond-a-doubt? and now that it's confirmed oka/me wasn't scum theater, is oka even scummy anymore?

like... any reasoning at all

[Antihero]

If MafMen is scum then props for committing to go 100% in on "act like a VI" strategy

this is my hangup. even with a mafmen=VI premise, mafmen's affect doesn't really make sense here

[Antihero]

fuck it
if any of you were scum youd hammer me

theres no way it cant not be that team

but that team is unlikely

fucking shit ill be salty as shit if im wrong here

like here...

why is he still acting like he's still struggling with figuring out who scum are?

it should be a done deal.

[Antihero]

If Oath is scum then she did more for town than the majority of townies in this game. If MafMen is scum then props for committing to go 100% in on "act like a VI" strategy

off the top of my head.

oath: my only explicit problem w her is that i feel like only ppl familiar w my meta should have had an unwavering townread on me throughout (then again you did that too)

oka: black star fucked off w no explanation and was slightly scummy, scummy day 1 play before and after the hammer, dropping off at endgame (thor tell)

mafmen: emotions inappropriate for situation

otter: i don't have any explicit problems w him

[Antihero]

why is mafmen still alive

because all scum are already on him? ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

[Antihero]

Eh

UNVOTE:

VOTE: MafMen

IF Korina is town then Invis/Manatee/MafMen is not a bad fit

Gonna reread this with fresh eyes tomorrow and see if anything stands out

Me and MafMen are either T v T or T v W here, never WvW

this post makes no sense unless both of them ARE scum :\

[Antihero]

well... i take that back. i guess he could've just made that throwaway comment true since there wasn't any real downside to it?

[Antihero]

that was hammer if i'm not mistaken...?

[Antihero]

Anti/Otter/Maf couldn't hammer Oka- they haven't had a decent opportunity as a team

maf and i were both on yesterday morning with oka at L2. yes we did.

mafmen vote is still ok...? i was actually leaning toward oka the more i thought about it bc i kind of talked myself into thinking it's plausible for mafmen to just be THAT out of it

whatever wait for khan

[Antihero]

W h e e

yeah nice work, you won by not playing the game and getting hard carried by whoever your two buddies were. congrats

[Antihero]

i'm just assuming 826 and 829 are scum gloating, which is pretty annoying given all manatee did this game was ... get null or scumread by everyone and the only reason he didn't die was bc of dumb luck and having enough VIs to clog up the gears of righteous death

[Antihero]

According to the wiki scum is 3-0 and this makes it 4-0

game might be scumsided

the vengeful kill means 1 scum lynch doesn't rly hurt scum

getting rid of that might balance the game

[Antihero]

i wish i could say this was fun for me but it really wasn't

think i'm going to site flake for another while