Micro 814: Geriatric Trio (Mafia Victory!!!)

[Kmd4390]

Hi

Figure geriatric micro I should be able to handle. I'm headed to a Yankees game and working next three days after that though so gonna be hit or miss at best to start. Will read up today or tomorrow.

[Kmd4390]

So as far as Oath goes... I liked the votes when saw them and magnas reasoning. Saw the first line of Oaths post and went "oh ok that makes sense". But then he says this:

What's interesting is wanting my head when there were actually only 5 in game posts before mine (not including Mod posts) and apparently I'm supposed to have "more to offer", really? Wagon for reaction is one thing, but the rationale is that my lack of RVS makes me more likely to be scum is reaching.

That being said MagnaofIllusion is better than that, even the explanation of thought (explaining that typically they'd say different) rubs me the wrong way - like simply voting me was too risky for them?

I'm surprised he has such an issue with the early wagon considering he shows in the very next paragraph he has an understanding of how early game goes. Reaching is pretty standard by both alignments. And then he backs off by calling magna "better than that". I don't get why it's such an issue if it's poor scum play or ok town play on magnas part. It feels more like he didn't want to be accused of OMGUS or take on a good player so he voted off the wagon. The RedCoyote vote feels like positioning rather than acting on a read, basically.

Now that you mention it, that post from Oath does feel kind of off, but I can't put my finger on it, maybe I'll think about it more later. However, why is the lack of an RVS vote scummy?

This just feels awkward. It reads like you found Magnas reasoning good and Oath scummy and show lazy intent to possibly follow up on it but then turn it against magna. Like there's a need to defend Oath even though you took issue with Oath himself.

Stopping after page 1 for now. Train is gonna stop soon

[Kmd4390]

Hito, if cheesey was scum who wanted to buddy town, why buddy the player being wagoned? Wouldn't it make more sense to buddy stronger players? Or are you thinking he's white knighting the page 1 wagon for whatever reason?

I wasn't asked for my Cheesy read and I haven't said anything of what I feel about what he said or what you've said. Both strike me as odd. If you want to know something, you can ask btw.

Is there a reason you chose not to give a read and then double down with this comment? You're right that you were never asked, but you also don't have to be asked to give opinions on the things you're already talking about.

____________

I'm not sure what to think right now except that hito is likely town

Why do you think that? What are your thoughts on magna vs oath?

__________

Music box, do you find Oath, cheesy, and nonny scummy for believing L-1 votes should have been made?

________

Komala, no I didn't read your question as rhetorical. I was wondering why you chose to turn things against magna after acknowledging he may be right about oath. You seemed to agree with him but put off oath and immediately questioned magna. It was just weird to me. But ok, I can follow that thought process. Actually if anything I like that you didn't blindly trust magna just because he made a good point.

__________.

I'm caught up. Oath is my top scum read but I want to solidify other opinions and get more discussion in so I dont want to make a L-1 vote just yet.

[Kmd4390]

Hito you mentioned buddying. I assumed you meant scum buddying town. In that context, oath would be town. If you took that as being my reads, I'm surprised you didn't call me out for scumreading my own slot lol.

[Kmd4390]

RedCoyote, no that's exactly what I'm saying. We get started by reaching, questioning little things, and reading reactions. Town and scum both do it. It's just how you start a mafia game.

[Kmd4390]

Music box, ok, I misunderstood your reasons for asking then.

[Kmd4390]

Is everyone here? I'm working doubles and this game feels slow even to me.

Unvote, Vote Oath

L-1. Talk people.

[Kmd4390]

kmd, how would you feel if someone actually hammered that Oath wagon right now?

Somewhere between anxious to see the flip and annoyed not to get a claim first.

[Kmd4390]

Well...

Some people are posting. Some are not. Not much about my vote, unfortunately. And I don't have much to say on the posts since mine. Deadline is approaching and in such a slow game, less will happen between now and then than what normally would in that time.

I'm bored and want things to happen.

Gonna take a quick glance at ISOs, focusing on votes, and see if anything new stands out...

Hito:
-RVS vote on RedCoyote
-Vote on Cheesy next post
-Recent vote on RedCoyote
---Looks fine to me. He explains his votes. Followed up on Cheesy despite the replace out. Interested to see what happens after the RedCoyote vote. Nothing here suggests Hito is scum.

Ivisibility:
-RVS vote on Music Box
-Votes Oath for sake of wagoning (correct me if I misunderstood this)
---Vote has stayed on Oath since Post 17. Later said only opinion is Hito is town. The only mention of Oath after the vote is "gross but...feels like Oath".
-----Invisibility, what are your thoughts on Oath now? If you had to guess a scum team, what would it be?

Komala:
-RVS vote on Hito
-Unvotes, stating a town read on Hito
-Puts Oath at L-2, some original reasoning, some Magna's. Mostly original.
---Actually seems better than I remembered.

Magna:
-Votes Oath in first post. Stays there.
---I feel like I remember Magna being the tunnely type, but can't remember if that changes with his alignment. *shrug*

Music Box:
-RVS vote on Invisibility
-Naked votes Oath. Says in next post she agreed with reasoning from Magna but...
-Immediately unvotes. Likes Oath's response. Hasn't voted since.
---I'm echoing Hito saying he'd like more votes from Music Box. Makes it easier to read her if we know where her head is at.
-----Pretty sure I remember from my catchup typing out a question about what you liked about Oath's response, saw someone else ask, and deleted my own question. But I don't see an answer from you so either you failed to answer or I'm misremembering. Either way, I'd like to know. What did you like about it?

nonny:
-RVS votes Komala for being first to post.
-Puts Cheesy at L-2. I'm curious why this vote didn't come in Post 31. Vote has stayed there since.
---Nonny's posting seems more like justifying her own vote than pushing the scum read itself, if that makes sense. Not sure what to make of that.

Oath:
-Votes RedCoyote. Clarifies it is an "actual vote". Vote hasn't moved.
---It's weird that most of Oath's ISO is back and forth with Magna, who Oath is scumreading if I'm not mistaken, yet her vote remains on RedCoyote who gets two mentions after the vote (the first is just "RedCoyote - hito said not utilizing a vote is 10 million percent scummy" and then second "Am I still voting RC? Because if so, I'm content with that vote still."
-----Can you remind us why you are scumreading RedCoyote? What do you think of his posts since your vote?

RedCoyote:
-Votes Invisibility, most likely for the naked vote on Oath.
-Votes Cheesy to make his own wagon "stand out a little less" and because he likes Hito's reasoning.
---I was a little concerned that he didn't really have anything else to say about my slot after the vote or even anything close to scumreading someone else. However, his last post acknowledges this and past experience with RedCoyote tells me he'll probably figure things out soon enough. Hopefully sooner rather than later though with deadline approaching.

I know it's only Page 4, but if I had to make a reads list, town on top, scum on bottom:
Hito
Magna
Komala
RedCoyote
Music Box
Invisibility
nonny
Oath

I also want to point out that my reasons for Invisibility being closer to the scum side of things only apply if Oath is town. So an Oath scum flip would move Invisibility up my list.

[Kmd4390]

Why do you want to be hammered?

[Kmd4390]

Unvote

[Kmd4390]

why did that prompt you to unvote?

I'm trying to sort Oath still. Not ready for a lynch. Also would like to see some reactions to post 95.

also i'm voting oath because she is the most scumme

Can you elaborate on what you find scummy about Oath? Who else do you think could be scum?
^lol ok magna beat me to the first part of that

[Kmd4390]

Uhhh

You have the most posts of anyone in the game...?

Vote Invisibility

Oath's last two posts don't really read like scum doing the "Lynch me" AtE thing. I understand the logic in lynching a VT claim and I'm not ruling it out just yet, but I'm not so sure Oath is scum.

Invisibility on the other hand seems anxious to get Oath lynched for someone who hasn't really said much about Oath actually being scum. For reference, see my post 94 and Invisibility's 98 and 99.

[Kmd4390]

Does it make you nervous that it's sitting there?

No. I'm only at like two votes lol. Your post doesn't really satisfy my concerns by the way.

Please do not run anyone else up to claim here. Seriously

Lynching scum is more important.

Preview edit: will read all that later

Preview editx2: ugh. Gonna be THAT kind of deadline?

[Kmd4390]

Nonny why respond at all if that's the case?

[Kmd4390]

You seem to be misunderstanding me. I don't care if you unvote or not. It makes no difference. My point was that your ISO seems to have the mindset of "I think my own play is ok" rather than "here's what I think of other people". I know that's common for players who are being wagoned, but you've faced very little pressure so it stands out quite a bit to me.

[Kmd4390]

-----Pretty sure I remember from my catchup typing out a question about what you liked about Oath's response, saw someone else ask, and deleted my own question. But I don't see an answer from you so either you failed to answer or I'm misremembering. Either way, I'd like to know. What did you like about it?

I replied earlier that it was mostly a gut feeling but I'll expand that. The wagon didn't bother her and she used it to scumhunt. Some of what she said resonated with me, eg 32.

What do you think of Oath's recent posting? Specifically claiming VT before anyone gave intent to hammer and then the self vote?

[Kmd4390]

Mod, do we get a deadline extension if RedCoyote is replaced

One thing I want to do is check out past Oath games. I want to see reactions to being lynched and what Oath usually claims as scum. Unfortunately I'm not sure when I might have time to do something like that.

[Kmd4390]

Are you willing to out any other accounts?

[Kmd4390]

Didn't think so but had to ask lol. Maybe I can still get something from all those marathon games.

[Kmd4390]

Not at all impressed with Invisibility's reads list. Like nonny said, no scum reads is pretty bad. On top of that, some of the reasons for town reads are too weak. Like Magna being town for gamesolving and being confrontational. Those are things he is good enough to do as scum.

________

And I'm not totally convinced we should just play the odds and take the "safe lynch", because every instance of this setup has a role that has definitive innos if there's only one scum left. So lynching scum D1 is crazy powerful, and I think that trumps any PR concerns here - I want to lynch the player with the highest chance to flip with a red name and that's it.

This. 1,000% this. If we think Oath is scum, that's the correct Lynch. But if the reason is just to avoid running up a power role, that's just not the right play. We should be trying to hit scum. That's it.

[Kmd4390]

Guys deadline is in like 32 hours

[Kmd4390]

At this point, Oath, I'd be shocked if you aren't the Lynch. So if you are going to give final reads or anything, now is the time to do so.

[Kmd4390]

Hito, Oath was my only solid scum read. When I started to realize I was probably wrong, we needed to rush to find something else. Invisibility or nonny were the best I could come up with. Looking back, I still believe in Invisibility scum especially after the Oath flip. It's not going to be a case with a lot of words so I understand my push won't look strong. But the way Invisibility kept his vote on Oath when the Lynch was close to happening the first time, and never gave a reason for the vote before my ISO glance, followed by questioning me on my unvote, sounded like scum who badly wanted a Lynch on town to go through.

Not_mafia doing nothing but voting the person who is going to be lynched anyway is pretty typical for him. If anything I'm just surprised he didn't wait to take the hammer.

Vote Invisibility

[Kmd4390]

Hito that's easier to do later on. I was commenting more on the fact that current scum reads on him are based on things he also does as town.

[Kmd4390]

Hito, I haven't taken a stance on not_mafia yet. He hasn't done anything to give me a read. If that continues, he's better left for PoE. Not really sure how you aren't seeing this tbh. I mean yeah he's a frustrating player and it's easy to want to policy Lynch him, but it's Day 2 and we mislynched Day 1 and that's not even your stance anyway so *shrug*. I'm with you that not playing is bad. Just I've played with him before and I know he does it as town too. You were scumreading RedCoyote though so I guess it makes sense from your point of view to vote there. Just, I don't see it myself.

________

Invisibility, do you still not have any scum reads? Did you get anything out of the not_mafia wagon?

_________

Nonny, I assume the above to hit answers your question. Let me know if not.

[Kmd4390]

If this comes down to ceejay vs nonny, I'm most likely voting nonny.

[Kmd4390]

hey n_m what are your reads

Could ask you the same thing.

[Kmd4390]

What are your reads

[Kmd4390]

Aris please don't prod me

[Kmd4390]

Is it bad that the game pace is making me want to just hammer? N_M does appear scummy and like he’s hiding behind meta but we are also crawling along slower than a snails pace.

Yes, that would be bad. He hasn't claimed.

Like look at KMD. He thinks not_mafia is a bad lynch today, and that invisibility is likely scum. Invisibility is voting for not_mafia, which should make not_mafia an even less appealing lynch from his point of view. But despite all that, it sure doesn't look like KMD is actually concerned about stopping the not_mafia lynch in favor of his invisibility lynch. Shouldn't he be?

Not_Mafia isn't the worst Lynch ever. He's pretty much a null read for me. The only thing that would make me lean town is that no one is standing in the way of his lynch, but bussing is a possibility. Just, I dont see anything to specifically say he is scum.

Oh, and KMD saying that he'd take you if it was you vs ceejay (but not why).

I don't blame you for forgetting I'm scumreading nonny I guess. I haven't mentioned it as much as I thought I had.

[Kmd4390]

Unvote, Vote nonny

[Kmd4390]

Am I seeing this correctly? A wagon Invisibility isn't blindly jumping on?

Hmmmmmmmmmm

[Kmd4390]

Too tired to do things. Still like my vote where it is.

[Kmd4390]

Too tired to do things. Still like my vote where it is.

Seriously? How about you actually answer Viz’s 258 instead of just throwing shade?

I'll be back this weekend. I'm working 16 hour days right now.

[Kmd4390]

*sigh*

So I don't really have strong town reads left. Michel is probably the closest thing to one. I still think it's Nonny/Invisibility. If one of them is town, Music Box is my next pick.

[Kmd4390]

So...what are you planning on doing to figure it out?

[Kmd4390]

I figure Hito was probably killed for being widely town read or scum figured out he was a power role. I did consider that you'd kill him as scum to take that target off your back, but there are just too many other reasons for Hito to be killed for that to be a solid point and I haven't seen very many reasons to scum read your slot at this point. I do also kind of like that you're the one to bring up hitos suspicions of you. Scum-you could hope that gets forgotten after killing Hito.

I agree we should massclaim. Is there a reason you want to go first? Yes/no is fine as an answer if you don't want to reveal more. Also, do we popcorn, set an order, or just go at it? I think the only benefit to organizing it is to catch scum off guard. Basically I just don't want scum going last. So I'd like Invisibility and nonny to claim as early as possible.

[Kmd4390]

VT and no message.

[Kmd4390]

I don't have time to look through hito's ISO (it's a lot of words). I'm working 16 hours again today and tomorrow. I could see hammerkeeper being crumb though. Problem is I don't have enough experience with this playerlist to know who would pick that up and who wouldn't.

[Kmd4390]

I'll look this game over tomorrow night.

[Kmd4390]

Ok...

I've said this before, but let me do a little bit better a job showing why I believe so strongly in an Invisibility/nonny team.

VOTE: Oath

Wagons are nice in RVS

Oath (3): MagnaofIllusion 14, Music Box 16, Invisibility 17

I originally let this one go because Invisibility specifies RVS and I know some people play that way early on to get the game moving.

But then the wagon gets to L-1:

Oath (4): MagnaofIllusion 14, Invisibility 17, Komala 66, Kmd4390 85

Invisibility stays despite the only thing remotely close to a read on Oath was this:

this is gross but i also feels like Oath so idk

That was when I first noticed Invisibility's attitude appearing to be that it doesn't matter who is lynched.

I unvote and:

why did that prompt you to unvote?

That reads to me like "Uhhhh why can't I have this lynch?". Invisibility seems to want that lynch pretty badly for someone who hasn't said much about Oath actually being scum.

I'm not gonna bother quoting it but after that lynch fell apart, Invisibility gave that reads list with no scum reads and switched to not_mafia. Lynch on Oath goes through anyway.

Day 2, Invisibility opens with a vote on Not_Mafia, who votes nonny. Invisibility's response?

tell me about this my man

is this the next hot wagon?
VOTE: ceejay

nonny (2): Music Box 196, Not_Mafia 202
ceejayvinoya (2): hitogiroshi 208, invisibility 210

Remember that attitude of not caring who is lynched? It appears to have shifted to not caring who is lynched as long as it's not nonny. A vote on nonny would have put that wagon at three yet Invisibility called ceejay "the next hot wagon". Why not nonny? Or better yet, what was even scummy about ceejay in Invisibility's eyes?

Ceejay wagon stalls. Nonny drops to one vote. And...

Not_Mafia (3): ceejayvinoya 206, Invisibility 234, Music Box 236

Invisibility is back to Not_Mafia. I vote nonny and we get this:

hello
can somebody direct me to a case on nonny

That's twice now that nonny has been voted and twice that Invisibility has wanted to know why. Where is this interest in reasoning for the other people being voted?

Michel votes nonny, but Invisibility goes V/LA, stays on Not_Mafia without further comment. Not_Mafia gets lynched. Invisibility starts the day like this:

I don’t know who’s scum

As town, that's a problem you'd want to fix after being so horribly wrong all game. As scum, things are going great and all you have to do is wait and see who gets voted first. Tell me which of those that quote sounds most like. I've seen no effort since that post and no promise of effort to come. Deadline is under six days away.

Basically, this doesn't feel like town play. It feels like just trying to get any lynch through. But when nonny gets votes, Invisibilty suddenly wonders why instead of blindly jumping on like with Oath and Ceejay (I admit Invisibility was early to the Not_Mafia lynch, something I'd misremembered before this review).

I'm more sure of Invisibility than nonny so I'd prefer that Invisibility be the lynch today.

[Kmd4390]

So do you scumread me independently of Invisibility?

Yes, but Invisibility is a stronger read.

Can you see anyone else as partner with Invisibility?

Could see Music Box. Not really Michel because of Invisibility's ceejay vote.

[Kmd4390]

It's late and my eyes hurt, but all I'm seeing is Michel says based on past experience Music Box is someone who would put in effort to find a crumb, you say music box's early game lacked content, and there's some stuff saying music box and I make sense as a team. I've never played with Music Box so I don't have thoughts on the first thing. I agree with you that Music Box lacked content early on, but I don't see that as scummy. And obviously I know I'm town so associatives to myself don't do anything for me. Is there something I'm missing?

[Kmd4390]

I guess I'm just not seeing why it would make sense for any scum team to keep Hito alive. He was pretty obvtown.

Especially because, given a hito nightkill, I highly doubt an invis-Nonny team would wait to see who gets voted first, as that is far too likely to end in the answer of "Nonny".

Interesting. You started the day thinking you were going to be voted. What changed? Or was I misunderstand you entrance today?

[Kmd4390]

Michel, I see where you're coming from on the Hito kill, but I also don't think anyone other than you would have thought out interactions to that extent. If you are town, it's much more likely that hito was killed for being obvtown or scum picked up on him being a power role. I really do think it's that simple.

As for an Invisibility/nonny team needing your Lynch today...why? Music Box is probably an easier Lynch for them to secure. I'm not seeing how you are the only mislynch that team would have.

And as far as that team needing to steer conversation... I think it's obvious regardless of alignment that at least Invisibility was never going to do that.

Can you sell me on Invisibility/music box without using the NK?

[Kmd4390]

Nothing really stands out. The random votes don't mean much to me. I agree Invisibility being low content makes it hard to rule out partners. The "RC is scummier" thing is really the only good point I see.

[Kmd4390]

Michel are you ignoring my points or you just disagree? I don't think nonny was today's default Lynch (and neither did you at day start) and I don't think nonny or invisibility were ever going to steer any conversations today regardless of their alignment.

[Kmd4390]

Michel are you ignoring my points or you just disagree?

I don't think nonny was today's default Lynch

(

and neither did you at day start

) and I don't think nonny or invisibility were ever going to steer any conversations today regardless of their alignment.

I'm trying to explain that I disagree with both the bold and the italics, whereas the unbolded is a large part of why I would expect a nonny-invis pair to keep Hito alive.

Lol I give up. This isn't going anywhere.

[Kmd4390]

Vote Invisibility

I'm willing to be bet the game that he's scum. Can't say that about anyone else at this point.

[Kmd4390]

Wait, I was scum?