Since the rooms stay open for the whole game, it is optimal to create as many as possible. We should do one batch of 4 rooms now, then another batch of 4 rooms when the post restrictions expire, and then a final room when those post restrictions expire.
Micro 845: The Room Odds - Game Over
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VOTE: Flavor Leaf
Since the rooms stay open for the whole game, it is optimal to create as many as possible. We should do one batch of 4 rooms now, then another batch of 4 rooms when the post restrictions expire, and then a final room when those post restrictions expire.
Get a room: Plotinus, trisThe failure mode of clever is asshole.
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oh, I forgot we can have more than 2 in a room. I've modded it both ways before. Maybe 2:2:2:3 then. The dynamic's a little different with bigger rooms but it can work.In post 17, Flavor Leaf wrote:You want all of them 2 people?The failure mode of clever is asshole.
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Okay, so our room is hammered. Who else wants a room?The failure mode of clever is asshole.
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get a room: Ruby and clemency
Ruby RedandClemencyhave gotten a Room.Last edited by BNL on Tue Jan 15, 2019 8:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.The failure mode of clever is asshole.
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now that that's hammered:get a room: persival, gamma emerald, dunnstralThe failure mode of clever is asshole.
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the 3 person room needs 5 votes, but yeahThe failure mode of clever is asshole.
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How bout each of you get first dibs on the second batch of rooms this day phase, then? Who would you most want to be in a room with out of everybody here, Dunn?
The rooms are a tool. We should use all the tools we have available to us.The failure mode of clever is asshole.
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I've modded a bunch of games with this mechanic. It's optimal for town to have places to work together out of scum's eyes, and you can scumhunt people in private differently from you can scumhunt them in public.In post 43, Persivul wrote:
Why is that optimal?In post 16, Plotinus wrote:Since the rooms stay open for the whole game, it is optimal to create as many as possible.
With 4 rooms and everyone in a room, at least two of them and possibly 3 of them will be masonries. If the people in the masonries can figure out that they are in a masonry, synergy will ensue.The failure mode of clever is asshole.
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who do you want to be in a room with? If you don't want to be in a room with Gamma and Persivul, that's perfectly understandable. Name some people you do want to be in a room with and then we can wait until their restrictions are over.In post 48, Dunnstral wrote:I'm not strongly against the room, it's just weird that we took this sudden change in approach. The previous rooms had people asking for them
I'd rather that people asked to be part of rooms, rather than assigning them for them. Also, do you not think that scum can pocket people inside of rooms?
I've played with your mechanic before (a long time ago) For the most part it worked out, but there was always a bit of paranoia, and people only got rooms with people they wanted to
Sure, scum can pocket people, but so can town be aware of whether they are being pocketed. This mechanic favours whichever side is making the most of use of itThe failure mode of clever is asshole.
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unget a room persivul dun gammaI agree there is no point in you having a room that you don't want and won't use.
VOTE: DunnThe failure mode of clever is asshole.
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Because you didn't answer my question. Who in this game are you interested in working together with?The failure mode of clever is asshole.
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It wasn't an rsq. At that point, all dunn had done was whine about rooms, so I asked him what he *wanted* instead. It's easy to be reactive and just shoot down any plan that comes along and talk about what you don't want, it's harder to come up with your own plan or to actually scumhunt. But instead of answering my question, he backpedalled and spread paranoia about the roomsIn post 77, Ruby Red wrote:In post 53, Plotinus wrote:unget a room persivul dun gammaI agree there is no point in you having a room that you don't want and won't use.
VOTE: Dunn
really bad voteIn post 57, Plotinus wrote:Because you didn't answer my question. Who in this game are you interested in working together with?
i tr dunn pretty strongly and not answering that essentially rsq is not scum-indicative
Talk to me about your townread on Dunn. What are you seeing that I'm not seeing?The failure mode of clever is asshole.
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yeah.In post 120, Persivul wrote:
OK, he was thinking only 2-person rooms at that time, so the final room was for the odd people out.In post 116, Flavor Leaf wrote:It’s 5 rooms per day, not 4. So it’s 2.
It's a little bit easier mathematically if the leftover people from round one are in a room together, but it's possible for everybody to get 2 rooms day 1 even if you guys don't room with each other. It requires some coordination though, or in the second round of handing out rooms, it'll come up again that the leftovers might not want to room with each other.
I am excited about the opportunity to apply graph theory to this coordination problem but we could scumhunt instead.The failure mode of clever is asshole.
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I thought this too initially but I've liked everything from Flavor since then so I'm okay with it now.In post 125, Dunnstral wrote:
That he immediately started talking about how he was worried that he was being framed and pointing out how they're likely partnersIn post 84, tris wrote:Also, haven't heard from Dunnstral about what he didn't like about Flavor's entrance. Is it the same as what Persivul is saying, or anything different.
Looks more like scum wifom than something to actually ponder about
Also ss/flavor leaf is a relatively high % chance team anyway, so that ties into the wifom againThe failure mode of clever is asshole.
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Clemency, you've disappeared. What are your reads?The failure mode of clever is asshole.
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If there is anyone who is as excited about math as I am we can be roommates when we're eligible for a new room!The failure mode of clever is asshole.
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Flavor, Something_Smart, what are your reads on each other? What did you get out of your room discussions?
I have a townlean on tris because I liked the way she was questioning me in our room. Also I felt like her vote on me made some sense because initially I'd agreed with Dunn's early vote on Flavor and then changed my mind about both of them in public without explaining where I was coming from. She's a newer player but she didn't seem intimidated by the room. I think as scum she would've been less questioning of my townread on her or less suspicious of me.
Flavor, do you want a room with me? You're probably my strongest townread right now.
Alternatively we could each state who we'd be willing to be in a room with and then work out a grouping that lets everybody be happy with their options for a second room.
I would be happiest to room Flavor Leaf, but wouldn't mind a room with Ruby, Something_Smart or Gamma. I don't want a room with Persival, Clemency, or Dunnstral.The failure mode of clever is asshole.
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Clemency in 5 minutes I want to hear about how your discussion with Ruby Red went and what your read on them is.
What would help you get an anchor in this game?The failure mode of clever is asshole.
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Who do you want to room with next, Clemency? Is there anybody you wouldn't want to have a room with?The failure mode of clever is asshole.
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Clem, what do you think of Ruby?
Ruby, what do you think of Clem and also I'm still waiting to hear about your Dunn read.The failure mode of clever is asshole.
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Context: his post restriction had 5 minutes left to go when i posted that.The failure mode of clever is asshole.
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VOTE: PersivulThe failure mode of clever is asshole.
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I'm townleaning my roommate. I'm aware that if I'm right about Persivul being scum then she has a 25.7% chance of being scum, but it's too early for that.The failure mode of clever is asshole.
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Get a room: Gamma Emerald, Clemency
Gamma EmeraldandClemencyhave gotten a RoomLast edited by BNL on Sat Jan 19, 2019 8:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.The failure mode of clever is asshole.
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@Flavor: I do, you're my first choice, but I'm also happy to room with Something Smart if someone else wants to room with you.The failure mode of clever is asshole.
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So I agree with this in theory but since none of them are stepping up to proactively avoid being last man out again, I'm going to assume they just don't care that much.In post 208, Gamma Emerald wrote:I’m of the mind the 3-man should be splitting out to find single partners and the leftovers from that should form another 3-man
Get a room Plotinus, Flavor LeafThe failure mode of clever is asshole.
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Ruby, talk to me about your townread on Dunnstral. I still don't understand it.
Get a room: Something Smart, Tris
Something_Smartandtrishave gotten a roomLast edited by BNL on Mon Jan 21, 2019 9:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.The failure mode of clever is asshole.
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Ruby, are you opposed to explaining your townreads or what?The failure mode of clever is asshole.
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Get a Room: Plotinus, Flavour Leaf
Hook me up, guys. The way for town to win the game is to coordinate in private in as many rooms as possible. I've moderated this setup a bunch of times and this is the best way, trust me. The more rooms there are, the harder scum has to work to be on top of the game. If you're town and a bit overwhelmed by the rooms, paradoxically, more rooms will make it better; it's a bit awkward when you're not in enough of them.
We need to lynch Persivul guys, he's scum. I waited until I was sure and went after other people who were doing scummy things because I can read him pretty well, but I've been sure since I voted him.
Point 1: Across the games that I've moderated with this setup,70% of scum players complained in public about rooms. Town were usually enthusiastic about them or at least neutral, though a few townies struggled to keep up if they were in fewer rooms than most people.
Point 2:Selective listening: When Persivul is trying to smear somebody and it turns out that his point is false, he completely ignores this information. For example, in 178-183, he ignores the clarification that Clemency's post restriction was 5 minutes away from expiring when I made that comment, so what I and Clemency understood my comment to mean was "I don't expect an answer in the next five minutes, but when you're free to talk about, please tell me..." He also continues to act like it's scummy that I'm pushing rooms when I've clarified multiple times that having modded this setup gives me insight into what the best strategy for town is. He has to do this because he knows that rooms are making it harder for him to control the game as scum.He's not trying to find out the truth, he's just trying to push his agenda.
Point 3:Tone. Persivul tends to use a different tone when he's town than when he's scum.The failure mode of clever is asshole.
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I actually went back and counted across the 5 games I'd modded, and 7 out of 10 scum players complained about them. (Additionally 2 of the scum players who didn't complain about them did exhibit another behaviour in their rooms that I won't mention unless it comes up.) I didn't go back and read all of the games thoroughly, and notably I didn't go back and carefully reread the town ISOs, so I can't tell you what percentage of town players complained about them, just that I remember it being a lot less than that.
So I can't tell you that "a person who complains about rooms is x% likely to be scum." -- that would require going back and carefully counting up the behaviour of the town players and doing a Bayesian analysis. I can tell you that I believe the result of such analysis would indicate that they are much more likely to be scum than town.The failure mode of clever is asshole.
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In case someone has more time than me and cares to make such an analysis, the games in question are:
Slavic Music I - town win
Slavic Music II - scum win
Fire and Ice - town win, and I'm just remembering that there was another scum team in that game (I previously only looked at the fire team). Okay so update the results to 8/12 scum players complain about them (75%) and 2/3 of the scum players exhibiting the behaviour in their rooms that I won't mention even though it is not hard to figure out if you ask yourself what a player who is not very good at being scum would do in a room.)
Fractals - town win
Boombox - scum winThe failure mode of clever is asshole.
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*8/12 == 66%The failure mode of clever is asshole.
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Clemency, while you're here do you want to hammer my room with flavour?The failure mode of clever is asshole.
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thanks! <3
Ruby, Persivul, and Dunn are leftover but it sounds like they're not interested anyway.The failure mode of clever is asshole.
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I read the games and I think "I think your vote is lazy af" isn't particularly mean. I think Persivul's tone here is more like what I would expect for him as scum.
It's true that the games I was thinking of were older because I haven't played in a while and neither has Persivul. But off the top of my head, wifom city, friends and enemies, Evolution mafia, Mexican standoff. I'll be the first to admit that those games were a long time ago, and the difference isn't as pronounced between your latest two games, though I do think it's there. Maybe your last scum game wasn't as frustrating as this one.In post 743, Persivul wrote:
I'm reading. Alisae told me and TTTT to vote and then let the grown-ups decide the outcome, so that's what I'm doing. Her attitude irritated me, as she isn't conftown. That was my admittedly passive-aggressive protest. Plus, work has been hectic today.In post 740, GuiltyLion wrote:it's also skeeving me out a little that Persivul dropped that vote and then hasn't revisited since
I of course would have addressed anything new, but let's face it - there hasn't been anything new. You're just having understandable difficulty pulling the trigger. You don't really have to. No lynch won't kill us. Ali thought it was scummy of me to say we should consider that. You don't here her complaining about the possibility of it now.
I'm here for awhile if you want to talk.
It's not a matter of being snarky; I like a bit of snark as much anyone. Your snark has a little more barbed when you're scum. That's all.The failure mode of clever is asshole.
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It's true I've been ignoring your case on me. I wasn1t particularly interested in it.
Disagree.In post 220, Persivul wrote:
Not sure why I can't quote myself, but anyway:In post 217, Persivul wrote:VOTE: Plotinus
From the room, 3 days ago:
[Redacted - do not quote from PTs]
I was asked what I thought of plot. To paraphrase, I said:
- His first post is bad. I get using rooms for a reason. But, just making rooms to make rooms eventually sows confusion, and that benefits scum.
If I can read someone based on my experience with them, that trumps reading them based on their doing something that is genericly scummy, and targetting a bunch of people at the same time is a waste of energy. I do better with a narrow focus.
It is very hard for me to pay attention to anything unless I can tie it to one of my current interests, and I am very excitable about mathematics.- Again in 141 - "I am excited about the opportunity to apply graph theory to this coordination problem but we could scumhunt instead." But at that point, plot had mostly been talking about mechanics and had done very little scum hunting.
I've been checking the activity meter a lot because sometimes when I forget people exist, it's because they're scum.Then in 143 - "Clemency, you've disappeared. What are your reads?" This struck me as plot thinkingOh yeah, I haven't been scum hunting either, better throw some in.
I'm feeling better about Clemency lately though.
Probably, actually. I'm feeling pretty good about the odds that it's {pers, dunn}. If Ruby would explain their townread on Dunn, I'd listen to it, but she won't, so it doesn't mean anything to me. I'm thinking about other people but:In post 268, Persivul wrote:Is the scum team {pers, dunn, ruby}?
If not, you're using a stat disingenuously to push me,
Flavour is town.
tris has been going back and forth between working together with me and being paranoid of me in a way that feels pretty town to me.
I'm feeling decent about Clemency recently but maybe I'm being too lenient.
I haven't minded any of something smart's posts
Dunno about gamma but he seems okay
Need more from Ruby
Dunnstral was worrying me and then I felt a bit better about him but now he's defending Persivul
Persivul is scum
!INFRACTION! - You cannot talk to or about Flavor Leaf right nowLast edited by BNL on Wed Jan 23, 2019 3:14 am, edited 1 time in total.The failure mode of clever is asshole.
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Persivul I thought they were close to the line but didn't quite cross it. I agree the games were closer in tone than previous ones might have been, but ultimately in your town game even though you did get annoyed with Chateau Lobby it felt like you were doing other things too. Here it has felt like you've been predominantly focused on opposing rooms and opposing me in particular (not exclusively, just mostly). I think the tone thing isn't black and white and can't be reduced to something easy like "did he use any naughty words" or "did he get angry" because obviously people can get frustrated as any alignment and you say fuck as both alignments; I checked. It's more subtle than that.
You asked what the scum motivation for attacking the person setting themselves up to be a townleader is, and I think both of us know that you enjoy being scum and you're not one to back down from a hard fight as scum, that we both realise that as scum we have two tools to use to eliminate problematic players: the night kill and the lynch, and if you can pull off a lynching a hard target then you have even more freedom for the nightkill.
Anyway, I have a job interview tomorrow so if I show up before 20 hours from now, tell me to go away.The failure mode of clever is asshole.
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Thanks for getting back to me on this. Now that I understand what you were doing I think it's townier than not that you waited so long to answer.In post 290, Ruby Red wrote:could've sworn i posted
i think plot/persivul is likely to be t/t
don't tr dunn anymore really, plot i wasn't answering you because i was waiting to see dunn's posts the next time he entered the thread
I could do Dunn today.
I don't have an opinion on Clemency; I worry about him when he disappears and then I feel okay about him when he's here. He was different in the newbie game I modded, but players there said he was different from usual there so I think that doesn't mean anything. I'd hammer him if it were close to deadline.
Pers, okay, you were a jerk in ClownTardis, too. I'm not arguing that you are 100% jerk as scum and 100% angel as town, that would be ridiculous.The failure mode of clever is asshole.
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That you are more likely to do it as scum than you are to do it as town. I don't think in absolutes; nobody switches between being dr jekyll and mr hyde just because they got a different colour role card; it's all about probabilities.In post 310, Persivul wrote:
What exactly are you arguing regarding tone?In post 303, Plotinus wrote:Pers, okay, you were a jerk in ClownTardis, too. I'm not arguing that you are 100% jerk as scum and 100% angel as town, that would be ridiculous.
I provide counter examples to what you seem to be saying, but you say no, it's too subtle for that. You sound like scum pushing an agenda and moving the goalposts so that it's unfalsifiable, or town who's confbiasing.
But ok, maybe I'm confbiasing.
I have a migraine and don't know how much longer I'll be up. The deadline is at 6am and I doubt I'll be around for it.
Is a Dunnstral wagon viable?The failure mode of clever is asshole.
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Let's find out.
VOTE: DunnstralThe failure mode of clever is asshole.
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Guess not. Well, I'm off to bed.
VOTE: Persivul L-2The failure mode of clever is asshole.
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I'd like a room with Something Smart, and then maybe Ruby.The failure mode of clever is asshole.
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Plotinus Kitten Caboodle
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Get a room: Persivul and Ruby RedThe failure mode of clever is asshole.
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Plotinus Kitten Caboodle
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Get a room: Plotinus, Something_Smart
Sure. I'm curious about your room with her, too.The failure mode of clever is asshole.
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Plotinus Kitten Caboodle
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Get a room: Persivul, Flavor Leaf, Ruby RedThe failure mode of clever is asshole.
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Plotinus Kitten Caboodle
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VOTE: DunnstralThe failure mode of clever is asshole.
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Plotinus Kitten Caboodle
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1 more. 2n - 1 is 5 for n = 3;The failure mode of clever is asshole.
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Plotinus Kitten Caboodle
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Welcome, Nancy Drew!The failure mode of clever is asshole.
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Plotinus Kitten Caboodle
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I haven't played with this mechanic before, but I've modded it about 5 times.In post 416, Nancy Drew 39 wrote:In post 414, Plotinus wrote:Welcome, Nancy Drew!
Have you ever played with this mechanic before? It seems really interesting. I hope we get one or do we just have to annoy the rest of the playerlist, in to voting us one?
I'd be happy to have a room with you. I know that Persivul and Flavour Leaf were hoping to get a room with Ruby, but each player is allowed to have 2 new rooms per dayphase so if you're interested in that room, too, then we've already got most of the votes we need for it. Up to you.
@Something_Smart now that we've had some flips, your chances of being scum with Dunnstral or Persivul has risen to a 0.91% chance each (or a combined 1.82%). I realise this doesn't detract from your point in a meaningful way but it itched.The failure mode of clever is asshole.
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Plotinus Kitten Caboodle
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That's a good point about Dunn :/ He's so scummy otherwise though ugh.
VOTE: ClemencyThe failure mode of clever is asshole.
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Plotinus Kitten Caboodle
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yeah, bold "get a room: person1, person2, etc." It takes 3 votes for a 2 person room, 5 for a 3 person room, 7 for a 4 person room.The failure mode of clever is asshole.
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Plotinus Kitten Caboodle
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yeah.
Get a room: Nancy and PlotinusThe failure mode of clever is asshole.
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Plotinus Kitten Caboodle
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Why is it my fault when I quite clearly pointed out to Nancy that Persivul and Flavour had wanted the room with her first and that I was happy to go second? Are you reading the game or just pushing what you want to push whether it makes sense or not?In post 467, Dunnstral wrote:Because Plotinus is scum and now he gets to manipulate Nancy in a pt
Scum is still in you/Plot/SS likely
VOTE: Dunnstral
!INFRACTION! - You cannot talk to or about Nancy Drew 39 right nowLast edited by BNL on Sat Feb 02, 2019 3:36 am, edited 2 times in total.The failure mode of clever is asshole.
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Plotinus Kitten Caboodle
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shit i am really bad at remembering my post restriction.
What I meant to say is "Why is it my fault when I quite clearly pointed to everybody involved that there was a room with Persivul and Flavour in the works that we almost had enough votes for and that I was happy to wait until after that."The failure mode of clever is asshole.
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Plotinus Kitten Caboodle
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I am happy to vote for your room but in 1 day + 6 hours you might be able to have that 3 person room if the 3 of you still want it.The failure mode of clever is asshole.
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Plotinus Kitten Caboodle
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Dunnstral, I have been thinking that if you're scum then you're most likely paired with Clemency for a while now. I have a chart but I'm not sure I can post it while I'm post restricted, but all my roommates have seen it.
I mentiond this in private in a few places but I don't mind talking about it in public.
On this setup, if you are scum and you aren't paired with your most likely buddy, then you want to keep that person alive in case you get lynched, right?
So suppose Dunnstral is scum, but not with Flavor Leaf. In that case, he wants to keep Flavor Leaf alive because after Dunnstral is lynched we might go after Flavor Leaf instead of his real buddy, Clemency.
Or suppose Persivul is scum but not with Flavor Leaf either, well then he too wants to keep Flavor Leaf alive to protect his real buddy, Clemency.
Or suppose Clemency is scum and paying attention, which is doubtful, then same deal, he wants to keep me alive because I'm his most likely partner, and the suspicion will fall on me instead of his real buddy, Dunnstral.
And so on down the list. Everyone has someone they are most likely to be scum with, but there's at least a 2/3 chance that you're not scum with the person you're most likely to be scum with.
So for the nightkill, you don't want to kill someone you could frame as being scum with your buddy. So who was tris least likely to be scum with? Dunn and Clemency. So if that's the scumteam, then tris is never going to be framed as either of their buddies, she's vaguely townread and she was asking lots of questions.
Well some of my roommates have some arguments about why Dunn might be town that I'm listening to -- not wholly convinced, but listening anyway., and I liked that Dunn has brought out the math because it's the first time I can really understand where he's coming from. And some of my roommates have some arguments about why Persivul might be town which I'm listening to but it's a harder sell.
The only thing I have in support of Clemency is that it seems too easy.
VOTE: ClemencyThe failure mode of clever is asshole.
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Plotinus Kitten Caboodle
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If you want to make your own chart, copy the one in the rules, but put actual names instead of letters so you can read it, and remove the dead people. Adjust the totals accordingly.
pedit: Clemency, mainly because you've not been doing anything. i see that you are doing a few things right now so keep those up, maybe you can change my mind!The failure mode of clever is asshole.
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Plotinus Kitten Caboodle
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Now that my post restriction's over, here's a heatmap of current pairings
The failure mode of clever is asshole.
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Plotinus Kitten Caboodle
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That was a hammerThe failure mode of clever is asshole.
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Plotinus Kitten Caboodle
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We should mass claim. I'm a vt. Popcorn dunnstral.The failure mode of clever is asshole.
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Plotinus Kitten Caboodle
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Dunn, on the off chance that you're town, do you want to unvote before you lose this for us?
Also, since you were pointing out percentages earlier, why are you starting with the person who, from your perspective, has the smallest chance of being scum? From you perspective, I have a 38.7% of being scum, Nancy has a 45% chance, Persivul has a 54% chance, and Flavor has a 61% chance. Who do you think I'm partnered with?
From my own perspective, I'm aware that the two people I feel worst about (Dunn and Persivul) have the lowest percentages, so I'm not ready to vote yet.The failure mode of clever is asshole.
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Plotinus Kitten Caboodle
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