Micro 857: Burden of Proficiency Mafia

[u r a person 2]

i don't understand why it isn't ms + saud

it was ms + saud when we were holding our dicks for the first whatever pages

it's ms + saud now

[u r a person 2]

this time, this game, explain why I am wrong, please

[u r a person 2]

don't go all stroke-y on me again, RC

[u r a person 2]

you know, if rc is scum i think im wrong on the partner. it's not ambiguous-town-read MS. too surface level.

it's the "person in my poe I don't want to lynch but will soft white-flag gambit by proxy" Saud

[u r a person 2]

I'm town and if I weren't I would have taken the opportunity to lynch someone when I've had this many chances.

yeah i agree, you're town

but you've only actually had one slot to hammer ;P

[u r a person 2]

but will you choose to lynch one that's scum?

questions like that make ya think, ya?

[u r a person 2]

i guess probably not

[u r a person 2]

but like, I don't know where to go on this one. I know where my reads are at. I think you know where your reads are at. shoshin seems pretty set

like we're at lynch time mate

so push me or lynch this or let's lynch ms but don't drag it out.

im out tho, this convo clearly isn't going anywhere fast

[u r a person 2]

Correct, but pretend RC is town and it becomes obvious who the pair is

so you're saying that I should be voting Michael Scott again, ya?

[u r a person 2]

UNVOTE:

[u r a person 2]

UNVOTE:

Explain.

I need you to sit tight for a little bit while we sort things to make sure we get optimal lynch.

i just got here a sec faster than you

I dunno about the fence sitty part

there are two scums in this game, after all

[u r a person 2]

are we doing this because my body is fucking ready

[u r a person 2]

There's weird things like Shoshin saying that she wanted other people to double check her meta, Shoshin unvoting at L1, still scumreading me even though no matter who my scumbuddy is I have had ample opportunity to have this game long over, etc.

I think you've gotten yourself down a rabbit hole, but i'll support it if it leads to a suade lynch

[u r a person 2]

You're willing to vote Sau now?

... are you not?

[u r a person 2]

You're willing to vote Sau now?

... are you not?

who cares why he wants to flip her? We all think suade is scum for different reasons but who gives a shit let's gooo

[u r a person 2]

Flipping Sau solves absolutely nothing unless Sau flips scum

so I sure fukcing hope you're right if you're trying to flip Sau right now

Keep in mind that this concern isn't really important for us.lol

I'm just pointing out that if you lose this game by flipping Sau

you might lose it for us, too

literally not my problem.

It's weird, and it's totally a dick thing to say, but you have an incentive to help us and we have zero incentive to help you.

[u r a person 2]

literally not my problem.

It's weird, and it's totally a dick thing to say, but you have an incentive to help us and we have zero incentive to help you.

I guess I say this because when you talk about your wincon, it actually gives me an immediate impulse of wanting to do the opposite, and you should probably take that into account while manipulating our votes

[u r a person 2]

okay whatever mate. it's clearly not the same dynamic because we're the only ones with votes in this phase, but it really wasn't my place to give you advice on your game.

[u r a person 2]

Listen

I have RL stuff weighing on me and it doesn't make it any easier to solve the game. It actually makes it a lot harder for me

It would be very helpful if I could trust you guys not to Lynch anyone for a day and the paragons not to encourage lynches for at least a day. Please?

I know that if you guys are town I am by far the weak link right now but I need a break to change that

this is massively too large of an ask

[u r a person 2]

URAP can you link me to a town game where you show a similar mentality to the one you displayed here regarding rushing the urap lynch

well i wouldn't characterize it as rushing, but rather looking to achieve a lynch at precisely the correct time and speed

I think the closest thing I've got for ya is the branching mafia game I just played. I replaced into a lylo situation, got a read, and then placed the first vote. I'll get it for ya

There is also at least one instance of me arguing that continuing a day rather than lynching with the reads we had would be counter productive because I think that eventually game length becomes scum indicative (for the record, i think 20ish pages of getting reads and 10 pages of lynch haggling is probably the ideal length for town), but I'm not going to dig through all the newbie games to find it. might be more than one time I did that.

Didn't you meta me, already, tho?

[u r a person 2]

viewtopic.php?f=90&t=79018


@rc this is that branching mafia

[u r a person 2]

^Yeah but I didn't even have a chance to get in to the game, and your push on me was just PoE so it's a weak equivalence.

I agree it's basically unrelated

but I have 13 completed games on site, and none of them are this setup

this is the closest thing i can think of. Serious question, How do you think I should have responded to his request?

because i think this is just bullshit shade

[u r a person 2]

well i wouldn't characterize it as rushing, but rather looking to achieve a lynch at precisely the correct time and speed

I'm saying you can't characterise it this way, URAP.

oh fuck ya i can

It was game winning then, and it's game winning now. I don't need you to make a post if i can get a poe solve

[u r a person 2]

You're still hard townreading RC, correct?

I am strongly town reading RC, yes

I'd put RC + shoshin at less than 1%
I'd put RC + suade at maybe 5%
RC + you at less than 5%

so yeah, I'm roughly 90% on town RC

[u r a person 2]

I think you + shoshin is less than 1%
I think shoshin + suade is 15%, less

I think it's the two of you

why should I feel different?

[u r a person 2]

if you are town, it's shoshin + suade

[u r a person 2]

tbh I think I've talked myself out of a MS lynch going through that

VOTE: suadade

[u r a person 2]

if you are town, it's shoshin + suade

You think their 1v1 was fabricated scum theater?

So when you read my last few posts, what you take away is that I think shoshin + suade is scum theater?

[u r a person 2]

what would make you think that?

[u r a person 2]

like all game long you have been asking me these questions that distort what I'm saying so that you can turn it around

and it's getting tiresome.

[u r a person 2]

If you think I'm town, you're entertaining the possibility of Sho+Sau -> their interactions would have to be scum theater.

I think you're scum

what game are you reading

[u r a person 2]

if you are town, it's shoshin + suade

tbh I think I've talked myself out of a MS lynch going through that

VOTE: suadade

okay i see the mistake

the first is a hypothetical. If you are town, then the pair is most likely shoshin + suade because rc + shoshin isn't a thing

And i think shoshin + suade is more likely than you + rc and way more likely than you + shoshin

so the best lynch is suade.

I apologize. I see where the mixup was now

[u r a person 2]

sure vote suade

[u r a person 2]

okay i see the mistake

the first is a hypothetical. If you are town, then the pair is most likely shoshin + suade because rc + shoshin isn't a thing

And i think shoshin + suade is more likely than you + rc and way more likely than you + shoshin

so the best lynch is suade.

I apologize. I see where the mixup was now

also suade + rc chance makes this better

[u r a person 2]

how are you reading suade? I think you said earlier that you were reevaluating?

[u r a person 2]

and to everybody

can we talk about how the difficulty in garnering support for a suade lynch is scum!indicative for suade except for when shoshin is scum?

if you town read soshin, you should be scum reading suade.

if you town read both of us, you should be voting suade.

[u r a person 2]

His ISO is objectively crap, he's been tunneled on Shoshin and is refusing to sort the other players as far as I can see. However, I was hung up on a Saudade/Shoshin dichotomy where one of them could only be scum, and I have reasons (I stated) to scumread Shoshin.

I didn't quite entertain the notion of them being a team gambiting hard so far, which I'm doing rn

the dichotomy was from their 1v1? I think it practically only comes from town shoshin or shoshin + suade

[u r a person 2]

But I also think that you reading 1 scum in shoshin + suade and then scum reading shoshin as super convenient for a suade + MS team

so

[u r a person 2]

I recently lost a game of half-mast nightless to a white flag gambit

and shoshin, though not present at that time, surely saw that as well

so, while I agree that a lynch was a risk, I think it is plausible that risk was taken

[u r a person 2]

take my first vote on suade.

I put them to L-1

I was content with a lynch there, and I wouldn't have put my vote down if I hadn't been, but I wasn't really expecting RC to hammer

[u r a person 2]

What game was that? Was this the one I was in?

viewtopic.php?f=83&t=78267

[u r a person 2]

oka was voting aubrey

we took it to L-1 with intent

oka was blase about it

lynch unraveled

because of the gamestate, it was clear that aubrey would be flagbearer in an oka + aubrey team

I used that vote as a reason to discount them as a team, and they eventually won, even though they were solidly in town bloc's poe day 1

[u r a person 2]

Thing is, URAP+Sau as a white flag gambit makes more sense to me, because he admits he knew RC wasn't gonna vote, and if he thinks RC is town he needs RC's vote, and knows he won't be getting it.

again with the blatant distortion of my words.

[u r a person 2]

Like I'm pretty tempted to call the bluff right now

do it bro

let's goooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo

maybe RC will hammer this time

[u r a person 2]

Thing is, URAP+Sau as a white flag gambit makes more sense to me, because he admits

he knew

RC wasn't gonna vote, and if he thinks RC is town he needs RC's vote, and knows he won't be getting it.

I was content with a lynch there, and I wouldn't have put my vote down if I hadn't been, but

I wasn't really expecting

RC to hammer

it's subtle, but it's constant. And it's irritating.

[u r a person 2]

Like can you really, for a moment, say that scum!me is sure about anything RC is going to do?

[u r a person 2]

that any scum would be?

[u r a person 2]

Like can you really, for a moment, say that scum!me is sure about anything RC is going to do?

Well, I think it's a pretty reasonable expectation that RC wouldn't hammer someone in that gamestate? Or even now.

then why did you discount a possible shoshin + suade team for so long?

[u r a person 2]

you can't have it both ways, mate.

If your worlds are shoshin + suade

and me + suade

the common denominator is suade. drop a vote and let's go

[u r a person 2]

I saw their exchanges as locking themselves into a vote - an extended 1v1 beyond a simple vote gambit. Like, making it a "you have to vote for one of us" situation, where clawing out of that and voting someone else would require a very forced progression. Can you see the difference?

I can see the difference, but I don't see how it would change your vote, if you're not scum with suade.

I also did not see a gladiate type situation as you appear to. - I watched that interaction and threw my vote down on you for a time

[u r a person 2]

I saw their exchanges as locking themselves into a vote - an extended 1v1 beyond a simple vote gambit. Like, making it a "you have to vote for one of us" situation, where clawing out of that and voting someone else would require a very forced progression. Can you see the difference?

but, even if I try to look at my own play from an outside position, I'm not sure how you can characterize it as a simple vote gambit.

And if it was

then I'm doing it again right now. Put em to L-1, this isn't a gambit. Let's lynch suade.

[u r a person 2]

except it is a gambit.

because you can't lynch suade

because you're scum with suade

[u r a person 2]

Like I get that you have to push me.

RC is not being lynched today.
Neither RC nor I is going to vote shoshin today
RC might push me today

I'm your only option

[u r a person 2]

but I don't plan on making it easy.

[u r a person 2]

If your worlds are shoshin + suade

and me + suade

When did I eliminate URAP+Shoshin?

my bad I guess you didn't. Do you think shoshin and I are the scum team?

[u r a person 2]

In theory I'm ready to place a vote there, but I expect RC to not hammer. There's no cost to me for not gambiting right now if I'm a scum partner... Right?

This is the narrative you're pushing about my vote on Suade.

There is no reason why you should think I agree with it. I think there is some inherent risk that you'll lose the game by voting your partner right now.

If I were you, I would take that risk. I think it's your best shot.

[u r a person 2]

my bad I guess you didn't. Do you think shoshin and I are the scum team?

Pretty plausible, considering both of you are hard pushing Sau, and your egging me to vote there, and mutual townreads, and initial combined hard push on me.

yeah, this is probably your best course of action that doesn't involve risking a hammer on your partner. If you're going to go this route, you should probably try to convince literally any other town in the game rather than me.

[u r a person 2]

I think you're taking a risk yeah. Let's see how long that vote stays

[u r a person 2]

I also think it's 3 am central time, and that it will be a lot more meaningful once I get a chance to push rc and shoshin to vote

[u r a person 2]

UNVOTE:

so that was... six minutes.

What was the town motivation for that little maneuver, precisely?

[u r a person 2]

I sincerely doubt that town!you was actually content with a suade lynch there

So was the point to prove your townieness to me?

because you think im scum so that doesn't seem right.

[u r a person 2]

why do you need to show me you can vote there? I'm voting suade.

if the team is suade + shoshin, you still don't need to prove anything to me.

[u r a person 2]

I'm going to bed, but this entire interaction doesn't make sense from town!you

[u r a person 2]

okay so here's what just happened.

I goaded you into voting suade over and over again

town!you thinks there is a solid chance that I'm scum with shoshin

so town you doesn't want to vote for suade right now, you're still sorting.

so town you either ignores me pushing you to vote, or explains why you're not ready to vote there or calls me scummy for shading you for not voting when why the fuck would you if you think shoshin + me is a high chance

but what town you doesn't fucking do is try to prove to your scum read that you're town by voting for his scum read

like in what world

[u r a person 2]

Lol, so if I don't vote, I'm partners with Saudade and hence not voting therefore scum.

I don't think you're reading that right. Not voting was the townie play. It didn't make you scum. Yes I was going to continue to goad you, but no one in this game would seriously believe that you having two separate worlds that you're considering and thus not voting someone to L-1 is the reason you're scummy

otherwise we would all be voting for RC

[u r a person 2]

No - I'm forcing you to back off of bad pushes you're trying to make, given the knowledge that a quickhammer won't happen (which, I realize now that Shoshin *may* quickhammer but she loses then from Paragon guess so w/e)

I hope the vote sticks this time then, and yes having other people around will increase the risk for scum!you and I will have to take it into consideration, and maybe that forces me to upend my reads. but we're not there yet.

[u r a person 2]

I sincerely doubt that town!you was actually content with a suade lynch there

So was the point to prove your townieness to me?

because you think im scum so that doesn't seem right.

If URAP+Shoshin then I'm taking the bait by voting there
If Shoshin+Saudade I'm showing you I can vote, yeah

And I'm not just "proving to you", I'm showing I can take that stance to the whole game.

[u r a person 2]

and I acknowledge that you're showing it to the whole game - but you don't need to put in quotes like I'm shading you. I asked you a question, you answered in the affirmative, and I used that as a basis to work from.

Can't we play this game on the level?

[u r a person 2]

I don't think you're reading that right. Not voting was the townie play. It didn't make you scum. Yes I was going to continue to goad you, but no one in this game would seriously believe that you having two separate worlds that you're considering and thus not voting someone to L-1 is the reason you're scummy

Doesn't this logic apply to you as well?

The difference is that I'm at a point where the likelihood of the worlds i have voted are heavily weighted enough that I'm content with a lynch ending the game.

Town!you clearly was not there.

[u r a person 2]

Town!you clearly was not there.

still isn't there, far as i can tell

[u r a person 2]

wow look at you big boys trying to get me lynched while im asleep

tried my best, i promise

[u r a person 2]

I wish I was, Saudade =/

[u r a person 2]

I'm doing my best

[u r a person 2]

at the risk of being conf!scum in your mind, I'll have to defer until morning. I said I was going to bed an hour ago, and I should have.

The short answer is

RC is town
Shoshin is town or scum with you

consult my iso for more

[u r a person 2]

I'm doing my best

Why did you quote this?

I know what it is in response to

But I know of two possible points you can be making

I want to hear it in your words.

because it was going to be my response, and I remembered that he had made the post and I thought it was cheeky

[u r a person 2]

at the risk of being conf!scum in your mind, I'll have to defer until morning. I said I was going to bed an hour ago, and I should have.

The short answer is

RC is town
Shoshin is town or scum with you

consult my iso for more

I've been staring at this for a while now...

There's two options here: URAP2 realizing he's confbiased into Saudade and he doesn't actually have a legitimate argument right now

or URAP2 is scum and never had a legitimate scum read on Saudade.

oooooooor it was 3:49 am. just like wiwth the trying my best thing not everything is a secretly coded clue for you to crack mate

[u r a person 2]

Shoshin is pretty much only ever scum if she is scum with suade because of the dynamics of the meta push

RC is pretty much only ever scum with suade because the above rules out shoshin, plus their 1v1, and RC + MS doesn't make sense because there is no way with the paragon bit coming up that RC has basically let their entire interaction be an unexplained town read onto ms.

which, by extension means MS is basically only ever scum with suade and that suade is scum.

I've only gone through this like half a fucking dozen times, enter.


And if you think that act from suade last night was townie, I'm not sure if there is hope for you.

[u r a person 2]

Somebody wake the fuck up and call ms's bluff

[u r a person 2]

[u r a person 2]

yeah i fucking did explain it. We're in a 5 person game. this shit is made for a poe mindset

[u r a person 2]

VOTE: ms

[u r a person 2]

yup, you got me

[u r a person 2]

nah that's okay

[u r a person 2]

how many scum games have you had?

[u r a person 2]

urap2 you really need to unvote, by the way

do I, though?

[u r a person 2]

im leaning MS + Shoshin

with other possible worlds being suade with either MS or Shoshin

[u r a person 2]

i think it should be pretty obvious how i got there

baby

[u r a person 2]

Okay

So you know that big discussion I had with Michael scott where I outlined exactly where my reads were? Read that

then consider MS voting suade

then realize that for me to have MS + shoshin as a team, I must have discounted shoshin's meta case on suade as a reason to nix {shoshin, MS} and {shoshin, you} worlds

and that me not putting you in those teams means I still TR you

and you come to my current reads.

[u r a person 2]

but I don't understand why we're doing this dance

you're going to go around in a big circle and then mislynch me anyway because something about my posting style screams scum to you and you can't get past it

[u r a person 2]

am i?

you don't know what my reads are

i am 100% confident i have one scum

the sole reason i'm doing this is to help the paragons

okay then, I look forward to being pleasantly surprised.

[u r a person 2]

I've been thinking for the longest it was MS and Saude, but I have seen zero distancing between the duo....I'd expect some distance between buddies in a game like this.

Correct me if i'm wrong here.

I mean, suade thinks the scum team is me + ms

and I successfully goaded MS into voting suade

so take that as you will

[u r a person 2]

revealing yourselves as scum would ruin this whole game for the paragons

please don't do this

[u r a person 2]

lol ok do it

[u r a person 2]

i dunno i think we should take this game all the way to the deadline

[u r a person 2]

=P

[u r a person 2]

i want the case even if he doesn't

[u r a person 2]

UNVOTE:

[u r a person 2]

every slot in this game but you wants to lynch me right now.

how am i not conf!town to you, RC?

ms says that saude and i are teammates and that the comment about saude never voting ms is supposed to be wifom for the paragons, but that would only work if either shoshin or RC is lynched (because if i, in this world saude's partner, or ms is flipped, this becomes a moot bit of wifom)

that makes no sense

shoshin doesn't want to vote ms, suade doesn't want to vote ms. it's ms. i dunno which he's scum with but it's ms.

please don't screw this up

[u r a person 2]

i gotta be up in 5 hours so im going to sleep. if you're gonna lynch me, do it before then, please and thank you

[u r a person 2]

i can't sleep and it fucking sucks

yeah, that's all you said. my bad. i inferred it - correctly tho, so not sure why it matters

RC, i'm disappointed that you're going to mislynch me here. I'm sure this wasn't my towniest game, but i don't think it was my scummiest. That was my first game. Not gonna put all the blame on you, though. That said, next time we play I think you should consider that you're 0/2 on me at this point.


oh and im changing my mind again. ms' wall post reads pretty townie.
Paragons, I'm not sure who I'd guess with suade. saudade + shoshin? I don't know their relationship, but looked pretty pocket-y to me tonight.
VOTE: suadade

GG all.

[u r a person 2]

If this is town it's URAP Shoshin but can't lynch either of them over Saudade.

well that's just wrong

I'm town bae

[u r a person 2]

I think I'd go with either Shoshin + MS

nope that's the one

If I were a paragon I'd go with Shoshin + MS

[u r a person 2]

3:1 odds say paragons get this wrong by voting RC

[u r a person 2]

this is one instance where I would gladly be wrong!

[u r a person 2]

this is one instance where I would gladly be wrong!

I'm not trying to influence the paragon's guess, I swear!

Lol I will actually jump up and down three times in frustration if it is you and RC.

It's not!

I'll shut up, though. I wasn't trying to wifom you into a vote of me, either. ;P

[u r a person 2]

I thought there was going to be a flip between town phase and paragon phase. Is this confirmed not happening?

[u r a person 2]

Has jingle even been around

I dunno

the way michael scott phrased his solve it made me think that I could have missed something is all

[u r a person 2]

ganet

I know what you meant to say, but when I googled 'Ganet' this was the beginning of the wikipedia entry for the closest match:

Gannets are seabirds comprising the genus Morus, in the family Sulidae, closely related to boobies.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Booby

not what I was expecting.

[u r a person 2]

I know it's you RC. The moment I suggest U2 as scum you end the game? Plus that fake townread from U2 all game. I'm not stupid. Well played. You manipulated MS.

aiyo

it wasn't a fake town read

and I even broke it down and explained it for you at one point. I dunno why you ignored it

but it aint RC + Me, mate.

[u r a person 2]

who the heck are you to call me scum?

[u r a person 2]

srs question. who are you

[u r a person 2]

oooooh i get it

you do cold, dead eyes in all of your avatars

[u r a person 2]

maybe it was shoshin + rc

did you guys do drama club in school?

[u r a person 2]

Can you really give that a rest urap

[u r a person 2]

I believe in you guys guessing urap Shoshin and winning where I failed <3

Can you really give that a rest RC

[u r a person 2]

Sorry I think calling scum scum is pretty okay and the literally constant bombardment of people trying to link me and Shoshin on an out of game basis was not

not scum

not out of game

i don't like you when you get like this =/

[u r a person 2]

hey im only egging it on now

i was all about that town bloc early

[u r a person 2]

yikes

ms is scum for sure mate

[u r a person 2]

damn rough game

RC, If I hadn't voted Suade at the end, do you think you would have lynched me or MS?

[u r a person 2]

ah, GG all

Thanks for mod, Jingle.

[u r a person 2]

at least i feel better that i was the best of the townies

lol jesus

[u r a person 2]

I'm not saying you're wrong but like why

[u r a person 2]

Although, tbf, once I had you as a town read I had to accept never lynching shoshin ever which was not exactly helpful

[u r a person 2]

and i did help you to establish a game state in which you were off the table as a mislynch

[u r a person 2]

or at least off the table for a "lol paranoia over rc" mislynch