Micro 880: A Normal Game - Game Over!

[skitter30]

hey all!

@mod regular v/la on fridays and saturdays, i'll remind you each week

[skitter30]

will do!

[skitter30]

/confirm

I was rather hoping to draw scum, but it didn't happen this time. I guess the odds in a Micro aren't that high.

For the time being, a philosophical question: is there any point in doing a random voting stage when the votes don't count? (We tend to do them when the votes

do

count, but normally try to avoid lynching people from them, so mathematically the situation should be the same in both cases.)

bolded feels kinda fake

and 3/13 is ~ 23.1% and 2/9 is 22.2% which is ... not that different?

and eh idk i was kinda wondering if there'd be a point in laying down a vote if it wasn't counted but it apparently possible to get reads even without laying down votes in rvs, so i guess it doesn't matter super much

[skitter30]

That said, I don't think it's possible to deduce much from this;

I just wanted to have something to talk about.

what is this referring to?
and why'd you write a post that you knew you'd get called out on?

[skitter30]

i dont' think that firebringer literally claiming scum is ai for him given what i know/understand of his personality

in contrast, i don't know how you'd approach the game as either alignment and it felt weird so i pushed it

[skitter30]

the latter paragraph is maybe townie? have to think about it a bit

[skitter30]

Hey guys, glad to be a member of the town once again

is this the legendary scumdun

Why do u think this?

[skitter30]

Hey

[skitter30]

Why sad face?

[skitter30]

Ok, why do u think that?

[skitter30]

Soulread
What do you think of cfj so far?

i mean a soulread doesn't mean much to me, but ok

disliked their entrance, felt forced/faked. i think that the way they're being indecisive of firebringer's 6, and how they laid out that whole thought process was moderately townie

i haven't settled on a read either way yet tho

[skitter30]

idk
i feel like i don't have a good handle on what scum!you looks like so most of what you say is really just like nai to me for the most part, tbh

[skitter30]

in rvs i believe in pushing anything that looks semi-interesting in order to generate discussion and to get the game moving;

i agree that most of what's happening on p1-2 is probably not super important or anything and probably isn't super ai but that's not why i'm trying to make discussion about them; it's to get conversation started.

[skitter30]

Why don't you start by trying to read the worst, for example? I think there are enough posts there to get an idea of his thought process.

Ok, what do u think of his thought process?

[skitter30]

/confirm

Hey oka

[skitter30]

Any thoughts on the first few pages?

[skitter30]

Seems p typical of him from what i've seen before but i have a small sample size and i dont have a good sense for what the difference is between his games

[skitter30]

on him? not really

[skitter30]

I want to push skitter for simultaneously trying to push for things to talk about but also not taking any positions. not sure that is scummy here.

wait am I doing that too?

i mean i'm pushing for things to talk about so that i can find positions to take

once i have them i won't have to force content

[skitter30]

i don't think 37 was ai in any way

does anyone have thoughts on temporal lich?

[skitter30]

you brought it up again

[skitter30]

anyways bouncing till tom night

[skitter30]

did you think I didn't read it?

no, more just like explaining why i'm doing the things that i do since you find it noteworthy enough to highlight

[skitter30]

did you think I didn't read it?

no, more just like explaining why i'm doing the things that i do since you find it noteworthy enough to highlight

[skitter30]

don't break the earth when u do so skitter.

[skitter30]

VOTE: OkaPoka

Yeah I don't think we should vote someone who was prodded. Seems like you're just voting LHF to vote LHF.

Kinda townie

[skitter30]

VOTE: skitter30

Lets try to both be online at the same time and talk

[skitter30]

Vote TemporalLich

Is this a real vote?

[skitter30]

sweet n sassy sounds like a hydra name. are you a hydra?

maybe maybe not

Hey, do u have any thoughts on this game thus far?

[skitter30]

Dunn wagon was kinda fast, i'm not sure scum get to l-1 this fast this early in a micro

[skitter30]

You're clearly scum trying to fool the town into thinking you're town,

Ok, if he's scum, how does posting that make him seem more townie - he got (a small amount of) pushback the first time, why would he do it again if it didnt work then?

Also, would you ever be convinced that someone is town just by posting something like that?

Also how much mafia experience do u have? Specifically how many scumgames?

[skitter30]

Oh i dont think it would have gone to a lynch or anything that fast - i'm looking at it more from the perspective that there's usually some kind of resistance to wagons on scum and here there just wasnt

I'm not sure if 'wagons on scum growing to l-1 with just townies on it' with little resistance is common in my experience

[skitter30]

In a Micro?

If the wagon's on scum, there's only one other scum out there who's capable of stopping it (assuming 7:2, it nearly always is). If the wagon's growing fast, there's a fairly high probability that the other scum is just offline, or not paying attention to the game, or whatever (especially on a weekend).

I know, i still dont think i've seen an all-town wagon on scum build this fast very often in a micro

[skitter30]

Hot take:temporal lich is town

[skitter30]

That's why its a hot take!

[skitter30]

I mean you could say that abou literally any hot-take-townread

[skitter30]

I mean you could say that abou literally any hot-take-townread

i guess we have to use meh takes for townreads

scumreads can be hottakes tho

what don't you like about temporal lich?

[skitter30]

dunn hasn't done anything this game to give me a read but part of me thinks dunn/skitter is a team just by how skitter talked about the wagon.

that gives me more reason to scumread skitter tho

ngl i was thinking that your interactions with the wagon are a little bit icky if dunn is scum here

[skitter30]

My SR's still on dunn

wait you are serious about this?

Hot take:temporal lich is town

Hot take:temporal lich is town

im reaching the opposite conclusion

This looks a lot like OkaPoka is scumreading TemporalLich for scumreading Dunnstral.

This seems like odd behaviour for someone whose vote is

on

Dunnstral, and had plenty of opportunity to move it. If you think that a player's scum, it'd be weird, with this little information, to scumread people for agreeing with you; maybe they'd seen the same thing you did.

It also means that if OkaPoka is trying to push the Dunnstral wagon, he's simultaneously trying to avoid looking like he's pushing it. (I agree that he's sort-of soft-pushing it in that it would be easy for him to dismantle it, and yet he's doing things like leaving his vote there, failing to investigate/push anyone else, etc.; quite relevant when the wagon's at L-1!) I can't see much reason for town to be dishonest about their reads like that.

VOTE: OkaPoka

townie post ^^^^^

[skitter30]

24 hour work shifts should be illegal

I'll read what I missed when I wake up

Unvote, Vote Temp

I assume oka got what he needed from the Dunn wagon

a) why are you voting temp here?
b) how are you reading oka?

[skitter30]

I mean you could say that abou literally any hot-take-townread

i guess we have to use meh takes for townreads

scumreads can be hottakes tho

what don't you like about temporal lich?

@oka

[skitter30]

woah this wagon was fast

VOTE: skitter

@firebringer - this post is where the you/dunn thing comes from

if he's scum you basically took the oppurtunity to hop off and prevent him from being at l-1

[skitter30]

VOTE: OkaPoka

Maybe, but a scumread is still a scumread

for some reason i'm getting you and sleepless assassin confused and this was kinda confusing till i saw that you wrote it

[skitter30]

How is it artificial and forced?

Explain your whole thought process

You posted the same "I'm town" post twice, once in pregame and once in D1.

You're clearly scum trying to fool the town into thinking you're town, the second post seems to be for those that didn't see your first post.

The same content in the two posts makes it not even seem like you're trying to be genuine.

that's the post i'm townreading him for; don't think scum actually push the bolded

why did it take you so long to vote him for this post?

[skitter30]

I mean you could say that abou literally any hot-take-townread

i guess we have to use meh takes for townreads

scumreads can be hottakes tho

what don't you like about temporal lich?

@oka

he's being excessive with his sr on dunn this early and that other post was scummy like an over justification for doing something that didnt require it

what does 'excessive with a scumread this early' mean?
disagree about the other post

[skitter30]

cfj and tl are pretty townie imo

oka isn't really

VOTE: oka

l-1 and all that jazz

[skitter30]

i think his read was fine for that stage of the game
i don't understand ur scumread on him really

[skitter30]

The fact that i think his read was fine for that stage of the game and that yours feels fabrocated

[skitter30]

Ok i disagree with you that this is a good reason to scumread him and don't understand why you're reading him this way

[skitter30]

woah this wagon was fast

VOTE: skitter

@firebringer - this post is where the you/dunn thing comes from

if he's scum you basically took the oppurtunity to hop off and prevent him from being at l-1

but i revoted him?

i actually forgot that happened, my bad, sorry

[skitter30]

really? because when i pushed him on it he basically confirmed it was mostly made up read.

ok, where did this happen?

[skitter30]

i think his read was fine for that stage of the game
i don't understand ur scumread on him really

whats hard to understand

The fact that i think his read was fine for that stage of the game and that yours feels fabrocated

it doesnt seem like you dont understand my scumread

sounds like you disagree with me

oka feels townie in this

no he doesn't

[skitter30]

Ok i disagree with you that this is a good reason to scumread him and don't understand why you're reading him this way

and ur not gonna try to understand because....?

when i say 'i don't understand why you're reading him this way,' in this context i mean i don't understand the thought process that produced this read

i did try engaging him on it, but it feels like he just made up the read ; like the read feels fake to me and i don't really how else to try to understand it because i don't really think it's real

[skitter30]

i don't really know how to explain that better or what else you think i ought to be doing to try to understand it

[skitter30]

I see from post 123 now you're going with the resistance thing. How much resistance can really be expected if Dunn as scum only has one buddy, maybe two but most likely not? Especially if his buddy wasn't around. Ugh, I type that out and see callforjudgement beat me to that point. I'll leave in in my post anyway and my questions in the above paragraph still stand. Im also curious what you think of the timing of firebringers (why did my phone auto correct to fire fingers?) vote on you and whether you'd consider that to be resistance.

i don't know, i'm just kinda speaking from experience - i've not often seen scum get run up this fast in a micro
i don't know necessarily what their buddy may be doing, i'm just kinda saying holistically after playing a lot of micros i can't think of any offhand where scum got l-1'd that fast

if scum is getting wagoned there's two votes that wont' be on that player
but if town is getting wagoned in a lol-rvs kind of way, there's two scum who would be happy to join the wagon. idk if dunn's town or if there were two scum on him but i think that in that kind of wagon scum are happy to place votes so there won't be resistance

like i guess i'm not really looking at this from the poe of: if he's scum there would have been resistance so what's his buddy doing
but more like: in general in a micro i think it's p easy for town to get run up, esp in a lol-rvs wagon, since scum have little incentive to not vote, so the fast wagon kinda looks like this scenario to me

i hope that explained my thought process

and yeah i thought fire's vote offwagon was some of that potential resistance if it actually is a wagon on scum

[skitter30]

why r u so confident in dunn being scum?

I've got no other SR's and the game is stagnating.

this right here tells me Lich is over-confident read has a lot of bravado in it

that didn't read to me as him saying he made up the read, i read that as him saying that was his only read worth pushing, which is not at all the same thing

[skitter30]

Why?

a) i like that he's trying ot make the game happen
b) i don't think scum pushes dunn for that reasoning (complaining that he basically made the same post twice)

[skitter30]

i think sleepless assassin is p townie

[skitter30]

me not voting lich immediately is the amount of time it took for me to realize that the dunn wagon cannot be milked for anymore potentially game advancing content

i don't understand what you're trying to say here

[skitter30]

why r u so confident in dunn being scum?

I've got no other SR's and the game is stagnating.

this right here tells me Lich is over-confident read has a lot of bravado in it

that didn't read to me as him saying he made up the read, i read that as him saying that was his only read worth pushing, which is not at all the same thing

okay, he didn't make up a read? is that what we are going to argue about.

cause it looks like ur intentionally missing the point to play on words here instead of the ideas

??? i'm not arguing semantics here and i don't get why you think i am

i disagree with one of your reads, so i'm trying ot undertand where you got it from, and until like two posts up in this chain i didn't get what you were seeing or where it came from

like why do you think i'm delibaretely arguing semantics here and not that i'm trying to understand where differing reads came from and explaining how i read a particular post

[skitter30]

the_worst do you actually scumread me or?

VOTE: the worst

#215 feels really off to me. In this situation, if OkaPoka is town, I'd expect scum who are on the wagon to be sitting on it in the hope that town hammers or forces a claim. (We don't have enough information yet to shake the "town outnumbers scum, so any particular player is more likely to be town than scum" assumption that applies in the early game.) the worst joined the OkaPoka wagon with no stated reasoning (#169), and is definitely sitting on it – and yet posting a popcorn emote, while it draws attention to the fact that that's what the worst is doing (both due to its content and due to the simple fact that it's a post), doesn't seem to have much town motivation behind it (why not either unvote, try to information-gather, or try to push if it's a strong read?). For what it's worth, the worst's play is

also

somewhat consistent with a bus, probably of the "intentionally failed bus" variety.

OkaPoka seems to have something of a parallel thought process on this, which IMO increases the chance he's town (although not by as much as if the wagon was on someone else, as players tend to be more sensitive to their own wagons).

he's acting p weirdly for him
and i have no idea if it's ai in any way

[skitter30]

because it seems like ur trying to reinforce ur positions and say I am wrong?

i mean, yes, that's how i play mafia?

i'm not sure why you think i'm deliberately misunderstanding something and not just reading something differently than you

[skitter30]

i'm basically trying to unerstand your thought process by explaining how i read it differently and comparing your thought process to mine

i'm not trying to say you're inheretnly wrong, i'm saying that i disagree with you and why

[skitter30]

that is what i'm doing and i don't get why you think i'm maliciously nit-picking so idk what to tell u

[skitter30]

sure

[skitter30]

Yes, thanks, I see where you are coming from. It just feels like a lot of assumptions without thinking about the specifics of this game. It seems like you saw a fast wagon and kind of jumped to "well Dunn is probably town then" without thinking about why you felt that way. But after this post, and don't take this the wrong way, it feels more like you just didn't look at the situation hard enough and just ran with something that is set in your mind which seems like a genuine mistake more than anything malicious. It also seems like you aren't set on the read and I don't necessarily think that Dunn or firebringer is scum anyway so I'm ok with dropping it.

yeah fair, it was entirely a 'this gamestate feels kinda like there's no resistance so i think it's less likely that he's scum here' feelz based read; from there i didn't go on to try to figure out where a partner could have been, and i probably should have

and yeah i'm not set on it, i think it was fine read for page 5 or whatever it was but ti's not something i'd take to the bank or base a lynch on really, it was more on observation about the gamestate then anything else

[skitter30]

I should mention that I'm actually the one who brought her to the site and only joined this game so we could play together.

ah ok, thanks for the context

do u have any thoughts on her alignment thus far?

[skitter30]

VOTE: sweetnsassy

the more defenseless, the better

I am not a hydra

What is this a response to?

duh its right there

do u have any other thougths on the game?

[skitter30]

SKITTER how would you rate your towncase on me

i think i feel differently about your wagon and the dunn wagon because i don't undertand why dunn was getting wagoned there (and thus felt like it was a lol-rvs wagon that weirdly had momentum, which made me feel like there were probably scum votes on it) vs. i scumread you and want you to be wagoned so i feel like the wagon on you is justified and there's random people defendign you for no good reason (firebringer)

so i don't think the situations are much similar at all

i do think telling me to rate my 'towncase' on you when i was p obviously talking about dunn and am scumreading you is a kinda (?) weird thing for scum to do so
still kinda mulling this over

[skitter30]

town: temporal lich, sleepless assassin
town side of null: cfj
null: dunn, sweetnsassy
scum side of null: firebringer
scummy: okapoka

scummy kinda but i have no idea if what he's doing is ai for him rn: the worst

[skitter30]

I mean tbf i dont know if i had these reads at the time of the dunn wagon, so much as the two wagons helped give me these reads

Also idk if tw is scum; i just dont know how to classify him but like gun to head he feels kinda scummy

[skitter30]

Also if i were scum i'd make sure my reads matched what i was saying so idk if this is such a great reason to townread me

[skitter30]

and there's random people defendign you for no good reason (firebringer)

nope, I pretty much explained my reasoning on town!oka

VOTE: Skitter

Yeah my point is that it was bad reasoning

[skitter30]

@tw if u have a few minutes later can we chat about the game

Right now i'm feelint very :puzzled: wrt ehat you're doing here

[skitter30]

Do u have any thoughts on the game?

[skitter30]

Still dont really like oka in this game. Tw needs to start doing things

[skitter30]

you wanna share some thoughts on the game maybe or ... ?

[skitter30]

ahhhhh ok

feel better!

you felt very ~absent~, didn't realize it was an irl thing, sorry, get better soon!

but when you're better i'd like to hear ur thoughts

[skitter30]

oooooh why am i town now?

[skitter30]

ok that all sounds p reasonable/good actually

[skitter30]

also grats on being the first person to actually recognize the difference between my singleball and multiball range lol

@temporal why am i town?

[skitter30]

VOTE: SweetNSassy

The avoiding talking about things thing feels scummy

also not sure this is a thing really in this context

[skitter30]

1. force of habit
2. i like him and he seems to understand my words and agrees with me. maybe im being whiteknighted though but i havent been whiteknighted in a very long time so thats not going to be at the top of my scumreading criterion

now that ive said that whiteknighting is back on the table for suspicion on anyone except firebringer because the well

has been

poisoned

oooh
ahh

Like all of this seems fake to me

[skitter30]

still thinking skitter town, firebringer needs to explain his SR of skitter

I am done talking to you for this game

you need to explain ur scumread of me

[skitter30]

eh i was trying to see if you were like ... not speaking with temporal in particular or were trying to avoid explaining a read on me in general, but you explained afterwards so i got an answer already

i think ur reasons for scumrading me are not great. idk if i inheretnly scumread you for that but i really dislike your interactions with oka. i will say that i think the two of you prob aren't svs tho

[skitter30]

idk that's what i thought

[skitter30]

i mean to a certain degree, yes, in that it's at least part that i think your townread of oka is ridiculous since he's p scummy here

but it's kinda more than that, in that i don't even understand why someone *would* here. like your mindset is just so ???? to me that i don't even see what you see that might lead you to townreading him. like it's not just: oh i don't townread him but i can understand why you might, in which case fine. i dont' scumread people just for disagreeing with me.
i just don't see what's there to townread - so i just don't understand your approach to the game at all

like it's not inherently taht we disagree, more that i can't wrap my head around how you're thinking about the game

[skitter30]

Idk if scum!skitter goes for that here tho

prob not, i'd try to get myself in the town bloc more than naything else

[skitter30]

What’s ur typical scum strategy skitter?

distancing + pocketing the right people + being v careful with my posts and trajectories so that people don't find reason to find them scummy

[skitter30]

i mean to a certain degree, yes, in that it's at least part that i think your townread of oka is ridiculous since he's p scummy here

but it's kinda more than that, in that i don't even understand why someone *would* here. like your mindset is just so ???? to me that i don't even see what you see that might lead you to townreading him. like it's not just: oh i don't townread him but i can understand why you might, in which case fine. i dont' scumread people just for disagreeing with me.
i just don't see what's there to townread - so i just don't understand your approach to the game at all

like it's not inherently taht we disagree, more that i can't wrap my head around how you're thinking about the game

I don’t think oka cares about appearance and is posting an unfiltered thoughts.

i don't really see it

[skitter30]

What are you seeing that I don’t see?

all of his posts feel fake and agenda-y

like he's trying to find reasons to continue pushing temporal and finding reasons to buddy up to you - that's kinda why i don't think you're svs

anyways i'm nominally at work so later

[skitter30]

i'm kinda sad that the oka wagon has disbanded

@ircher

vla till sunday

[skitter30]

idk what evidence are you looking for exactly

[skitter30]

i dont feel like pushing a new wagon right now because i like where im at

interested in t_w's take on the game tho

im getting bored
so tentatively without much thinking and subject to change

{OkaPoka}
{callforjudgement}
{FireBringer, skitter30}

{SweetNSassy, Sleepless Assassin}

{Dunnstral, the worst}
{Temporal Lich}


ama

@oka

[skitter30]

You're scumreading him and say that you dont want to push a new wagon ... i dont get what you're trying to say

[skitter30]

wait you're not pushing for Lich to be lynched or wagoned?

yeah so this was news to me too

[skitter30]

Me posting a readslist is also not a push

Pedit: I'd like lich to be lynched but I don't have anything new to add to my existing feelings

Either you liked what I said before or you didn't

i don't get it

why are you saying i'm incorrect for saying you're pushing tl?

[skitter30]

i mean we obviously have different defintions of the word 'push' then

[skitter30]

you want him lynched (or at the very least, are ok with him being lynched and are not intersted in trying to get anyone else lynched rn)

[skitter30]

i dont feel like pushing a new wagon right now because i like where im at

interested in t_w's take on the game tho

like you're finding reasons to stay on wagon

[skitter30]

you're saying you're not leaving the wagon because you like it and have little other reason to move

hence, continuing to stay one the wagon and push tl

are we like miscommuncating because we're using different defintions of words here or something because i don't entirely understand what this convo is about or why we're having it or why you're confused exactly

[skitter30]

the fact that i'm p sure he's town so

[skitter30]

oka: i think tl is scum but i'm not going to push his wagon, i'm just going to sit on it. i'm also not going to push anyone else

that looks to me like you just want to vote park

[skitter30]

and that's what i mean by continuing to push him for no good reason

[skitter30]

he worst seems to be coasting somewhat, although I guess it could just be the general lack of effort? His read progression on Oka is weird (placing a vote, leaving it there in the apparent hope the wagon goes through, saying "I need to talk to Oka" (and Oka doing the opposite) and them missing each other for quite a bit of realtime,

I'm not sure any of this is ai for him really

[skitter30]

VOTE: Oka

Had u read the game before posting?

[skitter30]

also grats on being the first person to actually recognize the difference between my singleball and multiball range lol

@temporal why am i town?

What is the difference?

P hard for me to realistically fake scumhunting in singleball

[skitter30]

Skitter, have you noticed people getting more suspicious of you since that scummy banner went live?

No, it started happening before that

[skitter30]

CFJ’s play is almost too analytical for me. Hmm. I do appreciate his forthright nature though.

Town reads on Skitter, Firebringer
Town lean on Dunstral and CFJ
Scum lean on Sleepless and Sassy. Not sure if this is because of their awol nature though
Scum read on Oka

Why is fire town?
I think sa is town too

[skitter30]

This post from Skitter looks really townie. I don't think scum would acknowledge how quickly the wagon ballooned and essentially deflate it. I disagree with the overall logic of the post because it assumes that scum would never vote for their partners. Unless Oka and Skitter are scum together, I do not think Skitter would make this post.

Nah, i would - it's p easy to fake this sort of gamestate read

[skitter30]

VOTE: OkaPoka (L-2)

I like Oversoul's reasoning for the town reads. I get the feeling that the reads are genuine (and if Oversoul is scum, are therefore based on forgetting what he knows about players' alignments and trying to read in a disinterested way, or possibly even a slip).

I'm still a bit suspicious about the scumreads, though (especially the read on Sleepless Assassin; there should be enough information pre-V/LA for the V/LA to not make that much difference, so lumping him together with SnS in a reads list is just weird). the worst's alleged strongest scumread was on me, and yet it wasn't much of a scumread, so I imagine that the worst was assuming that scum was most likely in the unsorted players. If we take the positiion of SnS on the reads list as a baseline for a no-info read (to me, she's obviously a newbie that can't get into the game, something that I consider completely null), Oversoul's reads list isn't all that different.

Nonetheless, this pushes Oversoul back below OkaPoka for my strongest scumread (also, unlike the worst, Oversoul is likely to become more readable as the game goes on, which is a good reason not to lynch there D1).

I actually dont much like this post

[skitter30]

not fake

only forced in the sense that some of the reads were less developed then i want them to be

i can do an updated readslist if u want or would u prefer me to talk to you in the context of that post

An updated readslist would be nice

[skitter30]

not fake

only forced in the sense that some of the reads were less developed then i want them to be

i can do an updated readslist if u want or would u prefer me to talk to you in the context of that post

Didn't quite like that you put FB in the middle, then someone calls it, you move it a few posts later. Your mindset should really be made to where you want people than someone questioning it and your attempting to appease by moving that slot.

I'm confused - who do u think oka is appeasing there?

[skitter30]

What is your opinion of Kop? I don't love 463 because that seems like an easy post to make if scum. That said, I do think that 464 shows original thinking that so far has not been leveraged against Oka (leading wagon). Maybe I have a different idea of how scum would handle an Oka!town wagon.

I really have no thoughts on him whatsoever

[skitter30]

I think a Firebringer/Oka scumteam is possible.

i don't really feel like they're svs

[skitter30]

which is frankly where I see skitter might be angling to go for, but I am still trying to peg down whatever skitter is doing as a whole because I think she would be buddying up to players and I thought for a minute that maybe it was cfj, and now I think no. So now I am going ???? back on my well does

skitter try to buddy up to players here

or just have her reads be the front stage and even that seems not true as she seems to be pushing from the back side seat of game.

yes

[skitter30]

Noted I guess.

Honestly give skitter the rc treatment. If she is still alive by lylo she is probs scum bc she is too competent not to endgame or draw a bullet by then

[skitter30]

townlean but i don't particularly like it

[skitter30]

which part of it

[skitter30]

i think you actually believe the things you're pushing (even tho i disagree with them)
and, in contrast to jazz mafia, i actually feel like you're trying to solve the game and i can see how your thoughts have been developing

[skitter30]

Yes, but who is he appeasing? Fire or lich?

[skitter30]

He's scumreading lich tho?

Why would hr be appeasing him - that's where i'm slightly confused

[skitter30]

I'm not sure i really see that here honestly

[skitter30]

I think he's doing townie things but i disagree with just about all of his conclusions

Your reasons for townreading him are fine, i guess. I dont have strong feelings on it

[skitter30]

I know this is gonna sound nitpicky and probably won't convince anyone but me of anything but this sounds like the kind of thing scum says to try to show they don't have more info than town. It's a micro. The odds of multiple teams are so low that it doesn't make sense to bring it up Day 1.

no, it makes sense in context
namely, he can read me p well and can pick up on the differences between my town and scumgames p easily

.... except in the last game i played with him, which was multiball, where i was scum, and fooled him *quite* well because it was multiball - most of the things he'd use to correctly scumread me dont' apply in multiball
hence, he was giving the caveat that if it's singleball he can trust his read on me

this makes sense to me given prior games

[skitter30]

1. force of habit
2. i like him and he seems to understand my words and agrees with me. maybe im being whiteknighted though but i havent been whiteknighted in a very long time so thats not going to be at the top of my scumreading criterion

now that ive said that whiteknighting is back on the table for suspicion on anyone except firebringer because the well

has been

poisoned

oooh
ahh

Like all of this seems fake to me

@sa did this come from here?

like it feels really strange here to bring up 'he's town unless i've been white-knighted but that hasn't happened in a really weird time so i don't consider it really but now that i brought it up i'll need to consider it for everyone else' ... like does this feel like a real thought process to you ????

he hasn't been white-knighted ina long time so like he doesn't use that as a scumhunting criteria usually - so why bring it up here?

and then why the saracastic/tongue-in-cheek bit at the end about white-knighting everyone else because now that he's thought about it he needs to apply it to everyone ... it just feels forced and like unnatural

i don't know how to explain it better really

[skitter30]

townlean but i don't particularly like it

not what I was expecting. why?

I was expecting this. skitter seems to analyse the game in much the same way I do, and thus is likely to a) disagree with everything you're saying, but b) see that the reasoning behind it is consistent.

Actually, the main thing I'm surprised at is that skitter hasn't complained abut my recent activity. I've been having problems finding things to say about this game because it feels like not much is happening; there have been lots of posts but I haven't seen much alignment-indicative in them, and not much that warrants really pointing it out. So I haven't been posting as much as I'd like, and I feel like skitter would have picked up on that?

My current read on OkaPoka is conflicted; I think he's more likely than random to be scum, but maybe less than 50% to be scum. I guess it's that his actions are blatantly scummy, but emotionally he feels more town. (@

Firebringer

: do you have an argument for OkaPoka as town? I'd be interested to see it, it may help me to gather my own thoughts on the matter.)

PEDIT: This is definitely singleball. Multiball is explicitly abNormal in Micros.

i mean i was away for a long weekend too and then read everything in one sitting

a) it seems kinda silly to complain about other people being absent when i was too
b) reading it one sitting i didn't really notice your absence tbh
c) i'm beginning to get nervous that you're buddying me

[skitter30]

I am preempting the what if firebringer is buddying argument

i don't get everything after point 2 then

[skitter30]

@cfj should i be worried that i'm starting to feel like ur buddying me?

[skitter30]

Eh maybe i should have said 'concerned' instead

I do kinda feel like you're extraordinarily interested in my opinions tho

[skitter30]

@cfj should i be worried that i'm starting to feel like ur buddying me?

What did you expect CFJ to say to this if he was scum buddying you?

Idk, kinda wanted to see if he'd have an interesting reaction to me saying that, and he didng really respond the first time so i repeated it

[skitter30]

I think oka's wagon stalling at l-1 for like forever is scum indicative for him

[skitter30]

Skitter once I flip town who is scum

Probably dunn or kop or offchance of cfj

[skitter30]

VOTE: Skitter30

I don't like their push

Uh huh

Do tell

[skitter30]

?

[skitter30]

i think u caught him in a contradiction but i'm not sure that contradicting himself is inherently scummy

what's ur read on me?

[skitter30]

i think you thought about his reasons more than he did, and i think that town sometimes just does stuff, like vote people, on a whim without thinking about it too hard

that's the situation i think you caught him in

it doesn't read as scummy to me really, more like he just kinda did something without thinking about it too much

[skitter30]

VOTE: Skitter30

I don't like their push

Uh huh

Do tell

I voted you on a whim, without thinking about it too hard

What dont u like about my push?

[skitter30]

@oka i dont know what else you want me to say, i dont think that he's really rationalizing his votes after the fact, i think at best he didnt think through his vote change but i dont think.that makes him scum

[skitter30]

This has been exactly my issue with skitter in this game. It feels very "here's what I think but not why but you should accept it as fact anyway".

I mean if you want to know why just ask. I'm not expecting people to just accept what i say as fact either, at least it doesnt feel that way to me

[skitter30]

Skitter and callforjudgement as opposite alignments, leaning towards skitter being the scum there.

Why opposite alignments?

[skitter30]

When did he vote with you?

[skitter30]

Yeah i was a bit confused by that

I dont really see the problem of voting his top scumread

[skitter30]

I could vote dunn too but i still like my oka vote

[skitter30]

Skitter ur going to need to explain how temp's actions are town motivated.

a) i don't know if they're inherently town-motivated but i strongly disagree with your premise that they're scum motivated

b) i agree with most of his stances on the game, which loosely points to him approaching the game with a town mindset, since it mirrors my own

c) i actually thought him admitting that his reads / votes contradicted each other was p townie - i don't think that scum like to be caught in such a situation, and i think that they'd tried to bluster past it and make up something to explain the discrpensy. just being like: yeah, you're right, it doesn't make sense feels townie to me, it felt like an honest window into his mindset

[skitter30]

I guess the OkaPoka read basically comes down to "is this bizarre behaviour more likely from town or from scum?". It seems to at least have some sort of genuineness behind it, but that doesn't necessarily imply town when the underlying behaviour is unexpected (it's far from unheard of for scum to "open their hearts", the behaviour's normally considered townish because it tends to give away too much information when performed as scum, but when the underlying thoughts are alien there's much less information being given away). My default assumption is that when I don't understand what's going on, the person responsible has more information than I do (which on D1 of a Normal almost certainly implies scum). I think your (= Firebringer's) default assumption here is different?

i feel like he's decided that tl is scum, and then found a case he could push afterwards

[skitter30]

he fking admits the contradiction when i literally lay out the cards in front of him

he doesnt back down until he has to

again, i'm saying that i think that the way he backed down was townie

[skitter30]

hurr durr okapoka u cant cherry pick ur own townie posts hurr durr

okapoka ur a scumbutt and here's why

these posts literally happen like 5 posts before

he is like oh yeah oops

after i make my post of how it literally cannot make sense for him to have these thoughts and actions

ok

why exactly do you find this to be problematic

[skitter30]

skitter if ur town please reread my iso and lich's iso

i just reread lich's

it's a town iso

[skitter30]

im on the verge of taking back my skitter townread at this point

uh huh

explain

[skitter30]

and he swaps votes from me to firebringer in between here so we can probs assume our positions of scumminess are swapped

eh the readslist hting is actually a legimate point

[skitter30]

he fking admits the contradiction when i literally lay out the cards in front of him

he doesnt back down until he has to

again, i'm saying that i think that the way he backed down was townie

you really think that scum have any other choice but to back down there? i mean reread the interaction and look at where he chooses to backdown, its when i PEAK BABY I PEAK

he had outs earlier, takes me to explicitly lay it all out in one post for him

why didn't scum!him take the earlier outs then

[skitter30]

skitter if ur town please reread my iso and lich's iso

i just reread lich's

it's a town iso

no u didnt

yes, i did

[skitter30]

hurr durr okapoka u cant cherry pick ur own townie posts hurr durr

okapoka ur a scumbutt and here's why

these posts literally happen like 5 posts before

he is like oh yeah oops

after i make my post of how it literally cannot make sense for him to have these thoughts and actions

ok

why exactly do you find this to be problematic

because it invalidates your backing out is townie point

he has to back out there

he had no intention beforehand

but i caught him red handed and he isn't going to double down now that its explicit

i don't get your point

[skitter30]

hurr durr okapoka u cant cherry pick ur own townie posts hurr durr

okapoka ur a scumbutt and here's why

these posts literally happen like 5 posts before

he is like oh yeah oops

after i make my post of how it literally cannot make sense for him to have these thoughts and actions

ok

why exactly do you find this to be problematic

because the progression outlined in that post is scummy

why

[skitter30]

skitter are you doing a creature style catchup where you respond as you see the posts/

yep, but if it's annoying i'll stop

[skitter30]

i mean if you don't think that's an inaccurate statement (ie you're defending oka's side of it) than obviously i'm missing something but like i don't get it; i don't think those two posts in sequence are scummy in the way that oka is portraying them

[skitter30]

well skitter i doubt it takes you one minute to read temp's iso

a) i didn't do it between those two posts
b) i stopped at the 'hurr durr oka you can't cherry pick your own townie posts' bit

[skitter30]

When u look for scummy things what r u typically looking for? And when you don't see those things do u assume that person is town then?

Ur read on skitter seems very empty.

things that feel sketchy or very convenient if they're scum

Nothing scummy is technically null, but my read was still a TR before since he was doing towny things like give reads and cases

(i'm a she btw)

pedit no

[skitter30]

skitter it feels like ur not efforting here.

i'm not really, i'm burnt out and i'm going on hiatus when my games are over

[skitter30]

no

i don't think he's scum

[skitter30]

i really don't care if you think it's anti-town of me

i'm not voting someone i don't think is scum rn
at best i'd compromise lynch there but i'd *vastly* prefer a different lynch and voting tl won't make that happen

like sure, if a compromise deadline lynch happens there then yeah, we might deprive ourselves of wagon analysis .... but why should i play towards that scenario rn given that i don't think deadline is for a while anyways

[skitter30]

oh never mind it's in three days, i thought deadline was farther off

still no, i think we can get a better lynch in that time

[skitter30]

skitter if im doing a compromise deadline lynch im lynching you

a) that's p dumb of you given that you think tl is scum
b) in this gamestate i *highly* doubt you can make that happen
c) on the off-chance you do, i'm going to make sure that everyone understands that you're next

[skitter30]

skitter if im doing a compromise deadline lynch im lynching you

a) that's p dumb of you given that you think tl is scum
b) in this gamestate i *highly* doubt you can make that happen
c) on the off-chance you do, i'm going to make sure that everyone understands that you're next

dunn is voting you
firebringer has voted you
sleepless has expressed dislike on your slot

i get you to l1 and there is no viable counterwagon you die,

please work with me and vote temporal lich

you've sat on me this entire day and run me up to l1 twice

you're asking me to vote someone i don't think is scum (and it's not just before deadline) so ... no

[skitter30]

skitter what's your solve

you + one of dunn/kop, off chance of cfj

tl, oversoul, fire, and sa are all p townie

if i'm wrong on one of the townreads it's oversoul

and he swaps votes from me to firebringer in between here so we can probs assume our positions of scumminess are swapped

eh the readslist hting is actually a legimate point

what happened to this?

i mean it's weird but i'm not sure it's scummy

[skitter30]

basically the same minus you

oversoul probably loses the townread / goes down a tier

[skitter30]

i mean i think the fact that you haven't been hammered is scum-indicative honestly

me/tl/cfj - who was the fourth person again? oversoul maybe? if oversoul than they're the most likely scum on that wagon, but i dont' remember who the fourth is offhand

[skitter30]

in a general sense, what about it?

[skitter30]

honestly, no, i don't remember that part

[skitter30]

meh

ill get to the point

Afaik your problem with my slot is that im fake and agenda-y.

I don't know how to deal with fakeness other than get better at charisma.
But for agenda, I push my scum teams hard when I am confident in them. This is not a valid reason to scumread me.

it's the agenda-y bit yeah

i skimmed your iso in my game; i don't feel like it's super similar to this one
i'll do a scum iso when i get a chance

[skitter30]

And on the subject of wagon stalling.

Why is wagon stalling scum indicative of me?

because if you're town and one of {kop/dunn} are scum why haven't you been hammered yet

[skitter30]

because dunn/kop is not a compelling argument since that means they let town run me up to l1 twice and didnt hammer or even give intent when all eyes were on me and it was reasonable to for a hammer

this basically

[skitter30]

eh i could see that narrative

still feel like scum would have figured out how to hammer you given that you've been at l-1 for like half a week if you're town here tho

[skitter30]

Skitter, I don't know why, but I've got a paranoia about you. When I replaced in and read some of the thread, I had a (not a big but) town read on you, but over the past readings since replacing in, I am getting a paranoia that this could be a play. I just feel that your speaking when spoken too, and not moving from your stance. It feels like since you've cemented yourself as the highest poster in the thread, and not many people are scum reading you, you've set your stance and not really moved from it, and not willing to take any other stance, even when people are trying to talk to you about your stances.

A) i dont think this is entirely accurate, that i'm not willing to take any other stance - i just dont see any reason to

B) if i'm scum i dont take the mislynch offered to me on a silver platter because .... ? Unless you wanf to argue i'm partners with lich this is a p dumb thing for me to do

C) i said that i'm kinda low effort rn cuz i'm burnt out

[skitter30]

You've mentioned 2/3 possibilities of who could be scum, but I'm only seeing these as words since I don't see you pushing those avenues but rather sit on your vote on Oka and not move unless it's a vanity wagon, which at this stage it looks like it could be.

It wasnt a vanity wagon till like ... just now, so its at best inaccurate to characterize my vote this way

Dunn has done nothing this game and isnt engaging, not sure what you expect me to do there

And now i'm working on you, yay

[skitter30]

Dunn, i need you to explain what you dont like about my oka push

[skitter30]

Well at this stage, it doesn't look like the Oka wagon is going to be the final wagon, there's got to be a compromise. You have 2/3 other possibilities, why not pursue them, I haven't seen your cases against them.

I mean I dislike your final point in a previous post where if Oka managed to get you flipped you'd make it clear that Oka would be next. If Oka was to vote you, you are making a trade it's either you or me, if it's me, I'm getting them to put you out next. Your attempting to make it out that if there was a wagon on you, your making it a trade and asking people to make a stance, which you know for a fact they are going to take a opposite because your town read by almost half the player list, and only 2 people have actually voted for you and 2 have expressed voting you, and 1 of those is if your a vanity wagon. If you made a trade, Oka would be first choice over you. So you can only make that point based on that.

A) none of this scummy
B) again, until like last night, oka was viable, so complaining that i'm sitting on a useless wagon is kinda silly given that it's a p recent development
C) i understand neither your final paragraph, nor why you're voting me

[skitter30]

What mislynch on a silver platter?

Oka just tried to get me to vote lich about four times last night

Now cab you answer my question

[skitter30]

because dunn/kop is not a compelling argument since that means they let town run me up to l1 twice and didnt hammer or even give intent when all eyes were on me and it was reasonable to for a hammer

eh i could see that narrative

still feel like scum would have figured out how to hammer you given that you've been at l-1 for like half a week if you're town here tho

hammering is hard tho

can you think of how a dunn/kop scum could get a hammer on me reasonably without drawing huge red flags?

@oka can you explain how these make sense together

In the first you're arguing against dunn/kop being scum becuase they didnt take the oppurtunity to hammer you

In the second yoh're saying that i shouldnt think it would have been easy for them to hammer you, so your wagon is not scum-indicative

[skitter30]

Now put into words why 'you dont like this stuff'

And maybe look at the most recent vc - i wpuld be the l-1 vote on him, so what are you going on about there

Got work bye

[skitter30]

Now put into words why 'you dont like this stuff'

It is pushing your agenda by saying things that aren't really true

Not sure why people pointed at Kop/me as if we were the only 2 who could have hammered Oka either.... What was everybody else doing?

VC think ok, I forgot Fire moved there. You were already on Oka though which had similar support. More importantly, I don't buy into the "why wouldn't I lynch him" argument to try to clear yourself

i was using you two as an example, not saying exclusively that you two are scum who could have hammered

and what does me being on oka have to do with anything - last night, when oka was trying to get me to lynch lich, the oka wagon was already waning and the tl was gaining some amount of momentum

[skitter30]

What mislynch was offered to you?

again, oka asking me to join the tl wagon about four times last night

it's only not a mislynch from the perspective of scum!me if i'm partnered with him, an dyou don't seem to be making that argument

[skitter30]

Yes Dunn hasn't done a lot in this game, but in reality, activity isn't exactly alignment indicative. Dunn not being here, it just feels that he has been thrown in there because it sometimes is the easy thing to do.

I can agree with you though that when someone isn't here much, it's hard to engage with, but I just don't see you attempting to pressure that slot or giving them something that will make them come into the game.

i didn't say that lurking is ai; i said that engaging with someone who's lurking is difficult when they're choosing to not engage or respond to questions. i did ask him things, i don't think he answered them

like there's 30 pages worth of content for him to engage with; i'm not sure what else you're expecting me to do when he's obviously not participating

[skitter30]

Well at this stage, it doesn't look like the Oka wagon is going to be the final wagon, there's got to be a compromise. You have 2/3 other possibilities, why not pursue them, I haven't seen your cases against them.

I mean I dislike your final point in a previous post where if Oka managed to get you flipped you'd make it clear that Oka would be next. If Oka was to vote you, you are making a trade it's either you or me, if it's me, I'm getting them to put you out next. Your attempting to make it out that if there was a wagon on you, your making it a trade and asking people to make a stance, which you know for a fact they are going to take a opposite because your town read by almost half the player list, and only 2 people have actually voted for you and 2 have expressed voting you, and 1 of those is if your a vanity wagon. If you made a trade, Oka would be first choice over you. So you can only make that point based on that.

A) none of this scummy
B) again, until like last night, oka was viable, so complaining that i'm sitting on a useless wagon is kinda silly given that it's a p recent development
C) i understand neither your final paragraph, nor why you're voting me

What I'm saying is I don't like the final point to what you said to Oka in regards to your defence on Oka saying he will push to lynch you. You stated that if he wins the trust and gets you lynched,

you'd make the point on getting them to lynch you the next day. Your basically making a trade and influencing the game state that if you get lynched, Oka must go the next day.

Your not considering that others could potentially be scum jumping on, your going into a death tunnel and placing trust in others to lynch Oka the next day, considering his wagon was at L-1 for god knows how long has now dissolved.

yep, p much

i think he's scum, and if he wants to remove me from the game i'm going to do my level best to make sure that people understand he should go next
not sure what the problem is with that; that's how the game is played

and again i think the fact that it was at l-1 for forever is scum indicative for him

[skitter30]

@ cfj remind me why you're voting kop?

[skitter30]

have u ever played with kop before?

[skitter30]

@ircher v/la till sunday (weekend)

[skitter30]

dunn or kop

(i should be able to post before deadline but i have regular v/la each weekedn ad can't post very regularly; usually i just announce it once in rvs)

[skitter30]

you had all game to call out dunn for not doing anything

you could've put him in a readslist and marked him scum for doing so, but you didn't

shading him now is LOL

uh he's been in my scumlist for literally hundreds of posts, thank you

i don't know if i ever explicitly said that's why i had a problem with here but like i've been strongly suggesting for a while now that i'm not happy about he's playing this game

[skitter30]

you had all game to call out dunn for not doing anything

you could've put him in a readslist and marked him scum for doing so, but you didn't

shading him now is LOL

uh he's been in my scumlist for literally hundreds of posts, thank you

i don't know if i ever explicitly said that's why i had a problem with here but like i've been strongly suggesting for a while now that i'm not happy about he's playing this game

[skitter30]

oka do you like town or scum more?

which do you think he's better at

[skitter30]

*you're better at

[skitter30]

basically the same minus you

oversoul probably loses the townread / goes down a tier

okay but what do you make of the fact that ive been run up to l1 twice in that case on a town me?

because dunn/kop is not a compelling argument since that means they let town run me up to l1 twice and didnt hammer or even give intent when all eyes were on me and it was reasonable to for a hammer

@oka this is literally in context of them not hammering town!you

you can't use the same piece of evidence to argue opposite conclusions when convenient, ffs

[skitter30]

VOTE: Kop

A red flip here should guarantee Lich scum.

uh no, what's the connection here

[skitter30]

yes i can all roads lead to oka town

afaik your dunn scum appeared when he voted you

i'm saying that kop/dunn had ample oppurtunity to hammer you but didn't, and the fact that they didn't is indicative of scum!you

you're at once arguing that:

1.since they had the oppurtunity to hammer you but didn't that indicates that scum are already on wagon (hence not indicative of scum!you) - 809 and 810
2. hammering is hard and they couldn't have done it without causing red flags if scum 834

like basically in 1 you're saying they had the oppurtunity to hammer you but chose not to, and this points to town!them
and in 2 you're saying that they could not have hammered you in a not-suspicious fashion

like these don't make sense as a coherent thought process

it can't have been both easy adn hard to hammer you; apparently which it was is dependant on what you're trying to argue at the time

if anything i'd argue that this implies that *your* thoughts are mercurial

[skitter30]

On a slightly different note, you seem to be having "recursive tunnel reads",

you start with a premise (in this case, that Lich is really strong scum), then use it as a lens through which to view the whole gamestate

(e.g. you're apparently viewing anyone who votes skitter as suspect because Lich is voting skitter, even though you apparently don't have much of a townread on skitter apart from that).

oh you picked up on this too, good

[skitter30]

if anything i'd argue that this implies that *your* thoughts are mercurial

i mean this is basically what you're accusing tl of doing and that's what it feels to me like you've done here so

[skitter30]

skitter if you really think I scumread you you arent actually paying attention

you literally announced this wasn't real like 2 minutes ago, how am i supposed to know it wasn't a real read

[skitter30]

and you townread me but pressure me to vote with you by telling me that you scumread me and vote me ?
uh ok then