Micro 991: Names on the List [game over!]

[Ahsoka]

Is there ever a reason to publish a list on Day 2? It seems like 2 misfades is a loss in this game.

[Ahsoka]

anything other than a policy to explain the seriousness, other wise the seriousness is just fabricated.

[Ahsoka]

Is there reason to not use the list? I imagine the Doom Counter staying low as possible is a thing we can abuse. That actually makes it mountainous, though, which benefits slightly towards scum's benefit.

Yeah, probably should publish tomorrow.

[Ahsoka]

It's also plurality, I think. Because fades are mandatory.

[Ahsoka]

i cant even remember what I was trying to say in that post.

[Ahsoka]

I'd rather figure out if this is just playstyle > scum being unsure and playing aloof.

I am not a player who would be unsure if scum. While I may speak differently than most are used, I am a fully trained Jedi, and will take you on as my padawan.

[Ahsoka]

I am not a player who would be unsure if scum.

That is not the way.

[Ahsoka]

I would

never

succumb to the dark side like my master before me.

[Ahsoka]

At least make your gimmick account your main like me

What if my main is already a gimmick account?

[Ahsoka]

I would

never

succumb to the dark side like my master before me.

Hey, I haven't forgotten about you.

When possible, I would like to see your takes on the game.



I feel a disturbance in the *force* and maybe it's coming from you.

Which disturbance have I made? I don't think I've had any major sort of effect on the game. I've been merely reacting as I don't have a total grasp on the game nor the mechanics. It's much too early for me to have any strong reads at the time.

I'm watching the game to see what I think is off, but at the moment, I haven't been pinged by anything that I couldn't see coming from a town perspective, like you coming after me, or Dkk/Gimli's votes on me.

I think Dkkoba's vote on me is worse than Gimli's, but I do not think that makes them scum.

[Ahsoka]

I gave some. I typically don't like playing the early parts of Day 1.

[Ahsoka]

People play expecting town to have reads, but a townie shouldn't have strong reads at this point in the game. I will converse as I see fit, and these conversations will look good to look at in hindsight, which is why I converse.

I have given my thoughts on the stuff that stood out the most.

[Ahsoka]

If you don't have time, fine, it could be later, but it's important for me to see what you're thinking.

pedit: I couldn't absorb anything ai from your 143.

That's because it's page 6.

[Ahsoka]

I am giving every thought I have out in the game out there, typically. I don't really care too much about the blunderous act of throwing around reads prematurely. I don't have town reads or scum reads. I have notes.

Dkk/Gimli, I commented on.

You, I commented on.

I will use these notes along with other notes from pings to find scum and town.

[Ahsoka]

People play expecting town to have reads, but a townie shouldn't have strong reads at this point in the game. I will converse as I see fit, and these conversations will look good to look at in hindsight, which is why I converse.

I have given my thoughts on the stuff that stood out the most.

you're lockscum

If only, kkoba.

If only.

[Ahsoka]

What else would you like to know, Clidd?

I've given you my thoughts on 3 slots.

[Ahsoka]

that's 33% of the game.

[Ahsoka]

I don't have a lot of experience with Datisi, but they seem fine as both a mod and a player.

[Ahsoka]

I also take a second to soak in Open setups. I don't play a lot of them.

[Ahsoka]

If you don't have time, fine, it could be later, but it's important for me to see what you're thinking.

pedit: I couldn't absorb anything ai from your 143.

You're asking me to give you 50cents when I only have a quarter, essentially.

On Page 6, I'd be able to fabricate any reads pretty easy with the defense of them not being strong if I wanted to, so the fact you pushed it as you couldn't get anything AI out of it is silly to me.

[Ahsoka]

So you don't have any strong read that you like to talk and that's ok because it's page 6 and I'm the villain for wanting to force something that theoretically you would not be able to deliver bc you're town and town don't have real reads early game. Is that it?

Who said you're the villain?

[Ahsoka]

If you wanna throw hands, I will.

I am fully capable of taking on both you and Dkkoba simultaneously with Gimli support. I have 2 white lightsabers.

Is that what you want to hear from me?

This is interesting.

[Ahsoka]

I don't know Gimli, but I know you and Kkoba, so let's fight. Shall we?

I believe this push on me is fabricated. I believe there are town on my wagon currently, as I specifically do not think Gimli and Dkkoba are both scum voting me.

Clidd can be scum because they hard misrepped me right when momentum on me could have gone either way. They can be impatient town. Either way, this should end up amusing.

[Ahsoka]

So you don't have any strong read that you like to talk and that's ok because it's page 6

this statement is correct. I would have brought it up had I a strong read to bring up. It's not like I haven't been here talking.

The fact you put the second position is a complete discredit attempt.

[Ahsoka]

I don't know Gimli, but I know you and Kkoba, so let's fight. Shall we?

I believe this push on me is fabricated. I believe there are town on my wagon currently, as I specifically do not think Gimli and Dkkoba are both scum voting me.

Clidd can be scum because they hard misrepped me right when momentum on me could have gone either way. They can be impatient town. Either way, this should end up amusing.

you know me?

I am the all knowing, Dkkoba.

You can become my Padawan.

[Ahsoka]

I hoped you would be inclined to create something, but at least you were sincere and firm in what you said. It is not ideal, but it is already something.

pedit: I feel like a villain by the tone you approached the subject, but don't worry.

pedit: what

No, you clearly want me to create something, but I have a certain type of gravitas that's looking over me.

I will create something for you.

I will single handedly bring this game out of RVS so that something will happen that gives me a strong reason because you don't seem patient enough to let that sit.

[Ahsoka]

The last time you tried to fight against me, it did not go so well for you.

[Ahsoka]

You know what happens if I turn myself into a force ghost, the heroes will prevail. They always do, and the Force Ghost is something of a specialty of mine.

[Ahsoka]

When the holiday ceases, and players fill around, they will have much to analyze within these last few pages.

[Ahsoka]

When the holiday ceases, and players fill around, they will have much to analyze within these last few pages.

I will catch a scum, and bring them to justice thereafter.

[Ahsoka]

Look at that hard discredit train of Gimli, just chop chop chopping me down.

That might actually be scum indicative. He made the choice to push further, almost unnecessarily, in a nitpicky fashion like the italics. Seems like they want to keep momentum going on me.

[Ahsoka]

Look at that hard discredit train of Gimli, just chop chop chopping me down.

That might actually be scum indicative. He made the choice to push further, almost unnecessarily, in a nitpicky fashion like the italics. Seems like they want to keep momentum going on me.

where did clidd misrepresent you?

So you don't have any strong read that you like to talk and that's ok because it's page 6 and I'm the villain for wanting to force something that theoretically you would not be able to deliver bc you're town and town don't have real reads early game. Is that it?

Who said you're the villain?

[Ahsoka]

I vote when it's time for me to vote.

[Ahsoka]

Clidd vote is there to keep momentum off me after Gimli moved away, and he poorly reasoned it with saying needing to sort me before Dkk.

Don't need a vote to sort.

Clidd goes down.

Radja vote is opportunistic.

[Ahsoka]

Raises Dkk because they also saw Radja being opportunistic.

Gimli switching is town.

So Gimli/Dkk both town, likely, that's 50% town block already then.

[Ahsoka]

@Gimli - why do you town read clidd?

Also, liking Horsewoman's catchup. Should I be afraid she's trying to pocket?

I'm kind of thinking this is Dkk scum too.

[Ahsoka]

Eh, there wasn't much that seemed like it could have been pocketing you from my pov plus I like her catchup too.

I disagree.

[Ahsoka]

Dkkoba and Clidd probably include 1 scum within them, but probably not both. Eh, I guess it's possible both. I feel like one scum at least was on me in those first 3, which leaves Gimli, and those 2, but Gimli has been super townie the past few pages.

No agenda, very genuine. I guess it's possible it's fakeable this early, but I'm confident enough to have him at the top. Horsewoman would follow behind, I like Raya. Radja is kinda scummy, but I can't really put my finger on why. I might be OMGUS scum reading them.

Volxen/Not Mafia I don't have a major read on right now.

[Ahsoka]

Why on Radja?

[Ahsoka]

He's E-2. If he gets to E-1, I'll think about hammering.

[Ahsoka]

You're asking me to vote my #3 scumread as my #2 scumread.

That is what is yikes.

[Ahsoka]

I was about ready to vote you or Clidd.

[Ahsoka]

And I think you saw that, so you're actively trying to create reasons for people to scum read me.

[Ahsoka]

you are one of the least town read slots this game, you are obviously not obvtown.

[Ahsoka]

Dkkoba and Clidd probably include 1 scum within them, but probably not both. Eh, I guess it's possible both. I feel like one scum at least was on me in those first 3, which leaves Gimli, and those 2, but Gimli has been super townie the past few pages.

No agenda, very genuine. I guess it's possible it's fakeable this early, but I'm confident enough to have him at the top. Horsewoman would follow behind, I like Raya. Radja is kinda scummy, but I can't really put my finger on why. I might be OMGUS scum reading them.

Volxen/Not Mafia I don't have a major read on right now.

I literally stated I thought there's 1 scum in you and Clidd.

I don't believe the wagon that pushed me earlier is ever all town.

[Ahsoka]

well its not my fault the townplay on this website is so weak

If you think people should unequivocally town read you by page 14, that is weak town play.

You did get raised. You're no longer my #1 scum read.

[Ahsoka]

as of post 260 u thought i was town. what since post 260 pinged u as scum.

My reads can change. I saw you as townie after one post, but that was yesterday.

I reanalyzed, and I think scum are on my wagon from earlier.

[Ahsoka]

It's you or Clidd. What's your read on Clidd?

[Ahsoka]

i mean yes its bad because everytime i see someone townslip, or i genuinely townslip, town players immediately go "zomg they faked it!" wheras when i play on other sites where town has higher average skill they give it benefit of the doubt and evaluate it as town or scum slip and usually accurately lol. or at least shelve it bc its the normal reaction.

Players can't do that here or I would destroy them as scum, though.

Scum players are probably just stronger here, because Day 1 I can fake anything. I hate saying it because it'll always have me to look scummier, but it's true.

Looks like you have a lot to learn still.

[Ahsoka]

im a bit of a self aware player. I know what's scummy. I know whats towny. I know whats NAI. If you think you have caught me being scummy it better be because my reads are horseshit, not some NAI garbage like a townslip. Can I fake them? Yeah. But the reason I do is because i genuinely make them regularly as town(and sometimes i fake them as town too).

i mean yes its bad because everytime i see someone townslip, or i genuinely townslip, town players immediately go "zomg they faked it!" wheras when i play on other sites where town has higher average skill they give it benefit of the doubt and evaluate it as town or scum slip and usually accurately lol. or at least shelve it bc its the normal reaction.

contradiction.

[Ahsoka]

gimli basically is approaching my slot in the worst faith possible, and anyone who is skeptical of me = towny.

thats how u can sum up their reading process.

this isnt how town approaches reads.
this is how scum discredits.


as soon as clidd pointed out that this is NAI for me > pivoted off.

this implies clidd is not aligned with gimli(like 50% sure, but gun to head would bet on not teammates rn)

clidd, as someone who plays at tables with myself in every game I play, I know that that is exactly what scum does in relation to my slot very often when they do not know me. Those that know me will more often attempt to pocket me as that's my weakness, or something in between if they're especially smart(pooky from coalition a few months ago comes to mind).

im a bit of a self aware player. I know what's scummy. I know whats towny. I know whats NAI. If you think you have caught me being scummy it better be because my reads are horseshit, not some NAI garbage like a townslip. Can I fake them? Yeah. But the reason I do is because i genuinely make them regularly as town(and sometimes i fake them as town too). Basically, even if I were scum here, I would have posted nearly the same exact thing. But it could have been slightly different depending on partners. If you really care about sorting me i have games where I show that lines like this are NAI, just read my history lmfao. I won't ever push meta that says im outside my scumrange, but I will push meta that what you're pushing is fully NAI.


anyways self meta over -

gimli have you considered its RVS and that people who know eachother and have played with eachother are liklier to have implicit bias towards eachother? I tend to push people early who annoy me or who i dislike. It's easier and more natural for me. I don't tunnel them forever unless I genuinely scumread them. This is probably also true of raya wrt the lighter tone towards me - we've played together and i've played in a game she's modded. We're chill and don't wanna go at eachothers throats like that.

I will say the ashoka vote isn't bad, that entrance is pretty flimsy. I'd rather figure out if this is just playstyle > scum being unsure and playing aloof. but lets play with it VOTE: ashoka

im sorry but what was scum abt my vote LMFAO

I really don't care for the reasonings behind people's votes. Reasonings are easy to make up.

I'm not basing the scum read strictly on your posts.

I have had 4 people on me. At least 1 is scum, full stop.

Both Clidd and you have been trying to keep momentum on me, and discredit me, while Gimli turned everything around, and explained why instead he town read me, which I thought was townie.

I also can see you moving away after another scum member, Radja, joins, and then you trying to distance.

So now I see Dkk/Radja possibilities more.

[Ahsoka]

i mean yes its bad because everytime i see someone townslip, or i genuinely townslip, town players immediately go "zomg they faked it!" wheras when i play on other sites where town has higher average skill they give it benefit of the doubt and evaluate it as town or scum slip and usually accurately lol. or at least shelve it bc its the normal reaction.

Players can't do that here or I would destroy them as scum, though.

Scum players are probably just stronger here, because Day 1 I can fake anything. I hate saying it because it'll always have me to look scummier, but it's true.

Looks like you have a lot to learn still.

i have a lot to learn still but im not wrong when i say ppl actively SCUMREAD townslips. like its kinda just like ??? sorry i cant be arsed to read the setup fully and remember it when i sign up for 4235 games in a month. i /in to a game and forget about it.

I have never seen anyone be faded for a fake town slip if they weren't already being pressured.

[Ahsoka]

ok if its radja then vote them with me. lets get the bus moving.

It is moving. They have 3 out of 5 votes on them. Why are you in a rush to end the day?

[Ahsoka]

I'm not done going over the game, and interacting with players.

[Ahsoka]

If anything, I'm trying to slow the game down. Scum like to keep the game fast paced because it gives more of a frantic feeling, and townies make unsure votes in the midst of that.

You trying to "make something happen" is essentially ending the day, and I'm not sure if I want that right now, especially not from a slot I think has a more than average chance of flipping scum.

[Ahsoka]

ok ill be honest i said that bc im just annoyed ur calling me scum with them now considering my position on them right now. guess just wanna just show like "yeah fuck you im serious about this lim"

Why are you trying to act like scum can't be serious about a fade.

[Ahsoka]

Someone said this game they think it's strong for scum not to bus in this game, and I thought that at first as well, but the more I thought about it, the inverse is actually decently true as well.

I thought about the List mechanic more, and if scum are bussed Day 1, it can be increasingly difficult moving forward for town.

Whether or not scum would do the inverse because it can get them town cred is the question, but I do feel like you fit that slot as scum.

[Ahsoka]

any reason u cant townread me here?

No real reason for me to see why you can't be scum here, especially considering I feel you're trying to discredit me multiple times this game. You can be town, it's about a coin flip percentage for me right now, which is pretty high.

[Ahsoka]

you have done some things I can see as townie, but not out of your scum range, I would imagine, I see a lot of scum motivated agenda stuff as well, which is most of the stuff I've posted on.

I will town case and scum case the same person because scum does townie things. They just do. They have to look townie, but pushing a scum agenda alongside that is necessary for scum, so having townie things doesn't make someone town 100%.

[Ahsoka]

I don't really care about the best way. I'll take each game individually.

I'm barely pushing you, and you're acting like I'm in a tunnel.

[Ahsoka]

You're just being overdefensive.

[Ahsoka]

You're talking like I have without a doubt see you as scum.

No.

You're a coinflip, meaning I think you have essentially the same likelihood to flip town, and I've essentially said this before when I said I was looking into you and Clidd, and I think 1 of you are scum, not both.

You're just getting stuck and being overdefensive right now, which like fine, you might do that as town, still annoying, and by no means does it make you town, like you are trying to imply you have nothing scummy about you this game, and absolutely nobody should scum read you.

I town read Gimli and Horsewoman, and to a lesser extent, Raya. In what world would I see that, and the way you've been discrediting me here, and think you're automatically town?

[Ahsoka]

any reason u cant townread me here?

No real reason for me to see why you can't be scum here, especially considering I feel you're trying to discredit me multiple times this game. You can be town, it's about a coin flip percentage for me right now, which is pretty high.

well lets eliminate the "discrediting" that is aimed at discrediting the push u have against me bc obviously anyone is going to discredit pushes against themselves. thats like socratic method way of dissecting pushes.



im kinda in a shit mood atm and feel like paranoid u want to trap me into some logical trap if ur scum here so im like treading on eggshells here bc ive seen u do this before. as soon as im sure one way or another i will hard push that point but rn im too drained to push to get that answer rn.

And town me, what's that like to you?

[Ahsoka]

im kinda in a shit mood atm and feel like paranoid u want to trap me into some logical trap if ur scum here

it's actually the reverse, town me traps scum, and I would do it as scum because I do it as town.

[Ahsoka]

ashoka has a bad read but that doesnt make them scum. interaction with koba and argument seems tvt

Nope. Not a bad read, different perspective.

Don’t do this, this is weak town play or scum motivated.

[Ahsoka]

Lostego entry weak for me.

Extremely political reads

[Ahsoka]

VOTE: Lostego

[Ahsoka]

I think Dkkoba-Raya has some possibility. Raya's handling of the Kkoba slot is kind of weird.

[Ahsoka]

possibility of a bus, then a relief vote.

[Ahsoka]

I always have what appears to be fluff in beginning of games to the naked eye.

[Ahsoka]

That's reasonable. I was quite fluffy at the start of this game as well as many others. What do you mean by to the naked eye? Is there some hidden meaning I missed?

Yes, but most people don't see its purpose of creating a stick in the gamestate for people to atmosphere around, and easing pressure when necessary, these ebbs and flow in the gamestate is the key to filtering out who scum is.

[Ahsoka]

I have taken solid stances. I've been bringing up my thoughts on who's town and where I think is scum.

Don't try and discredit. There's a fake gamefic out there like I haven't been sorting, but my reads are more out there than the majority of the playerlist.

[Ahsoka]

Oh wow, is this what scum Infinity looks like or is this scum Dkkoba.

[Ahsoka]

VOTE: radja

^ We need more of this

im down VOTE: Radja

This happens immediately after Infinity replaces in and posts a big post. This gave a lot of momentum to them, so their vote had merit.

Possible Theory: Infinity is scum who is looking to rally, and push an inactive slot.

Moving forward, Not Mafia says We need more of this, and I think that is townie of Not Mafia, because I don't know if he thinks to say anything like this right after an inactive slot gets voted.

Dkkoba sees the momentum of Infinity, and joins the wagon.

Possible Theory: Dkkoba sees possible townInfinity, and begins to try and gain favor with them, almost a pocket attempt.

I have no strong read on Radja, but their vote on me was pretty weak.

[Ahsoka]

Dkkoba looks like they're trying to push a misfade, and going around looking for one, and I think the Radja wagon is LHF.

VOTE: Dkkoba

Horsewoman I was town reading, and I know Infinity well, so I'm happy to push this. See what happens.

[Ahsoka]

Gives Amelie some breathing room too.

I feel scum could have been trying to get Radja before they were replaced.

[Ahsoka]

Gives Amelie some breathing room too.

I feel scum could have been trying to get Radja before they were replaced.

[Ahsoka]

the thing about radja is that while they're pretty POE'd down as scum, ahsoka and everyone else that pointed so are right that this is the most LHF slot in the game and it makes a lot of sense that all of those strong pushes are just looking for a miselim. this is not how we should evaluate radja though, but rather on the likelyhood of them being scum without such associatives.

There are 3 scum in this game, scum shouldn't be getting POE'd that easily, which is why I think Radja slot is LHF.

[Ahsoka]

Ahsoka, I know you probably don't like to read my posts, but do you think the ''Dk vs Gimli'' thing says something AI about Dk?

i forget where that was, but Dkkoba's been making scummy plays all day.

I was gone for a day and a half, mentally if not physically, and I don't remember the specifics of this game anymore, but I remember vague feelings.

[Ahsoka]

I'm not confident in the read, but I don't expect to be confident this Day phase. 3 scum to 6 townies is rather strong with no flips for scum, so realistically, scum are going to be trying not to pair up, but probably make sure the game lands on a misfade somehow.

I think a List Publish tomorrow forces sides to be chosen, and scum are going to do their best to make sure that doesn't come across as black and white, so scum probably have been staying on separate sides this game and not voting together.

I could be overthinking about it, but that's what I would do. It's the safest route that doesn't take a lot of coordination between teammates.

[Ahsoka]

Lostego suddenly made me miss being on their wagon

[Ahsoka]

VOTE: Lostego

[Ahsoka]

So Publish?

[Ahsoka]

the fade happened so fast.

[Ahsoka]

I'm here. I still think Dkkoba/Clidd/Infinity 100% have scum in them

[Ahsoka]

Gimli's never scum here, so people pushing that have scum there.

And scum have almost half the playerlist now, so they're definitely in the active players.

I needed a break so I haven't really mentally been here, but I'll try and do some analysis sometime soon.

[Ahsoka]

Raya, Amelia, Clidd, Not Mafia, Dkkoba, Infinity have 3 scum in them.

[Ahsoka]

Raya, Amelia, Clidd, Not Mafia, Dkkoba, Infinity have 3 scum in them.

Narrowing this down, I don't think Raya is scum either.

Clidd/Dkkoba/Infinity probably isn't all 3 scum, so it leaves Not Mafia and Amelie, who I don't think are scum together based on Not Mafia's push towards Amelie. One of them is scum with two of Clidd/Dkkoba/Infinity.

[Ahsoka]

Hum.

I understand what you are saying, although I have been getting a towny impression of Gimli during much of the game.

I confess that I have a seed of internal doubt about Gimli.

I think that four or five slots, including players who are no longer in the game, have expressed some doubt about Gimli and I don't know how to face the fact that I am not sympathizing with it. I would have to assume that my vision is right and all of these players are wrong or scum, which would be very arrogant on my part and statistically more unlikely to be true.

pedit: A mechanical aid may be useful to clarify any loose ends not only in my reads, but in others too.

Or, if we aren't using it, I would like to eliminate between Amélie and NM.

Particularly, I think NM is being pushed a lot less than I would think of town!NM vs three scums and as nothing he said or did until now is suggestive enough to infer a specific alignment, the initial impression I described is the way I'm seeing the slot rn.

Radja/Amélie share the same color in the sense of apathy and I believe that the reads that Amélie shared are very easy to manufacture and do not satisfactorily indicate a desire to resolve the game.

This makes me feel Clidd is a high possibility for scum because they bring up town reading Gimli, bring up town reading Raya and Infinity (i think Infinity is a possible pocket attempt for Clidd if Infinity is town), and I really dislike the "seeds of doubt" like with Gimli right after putting them as "town all game"

I don't really have these doubts about Gimli, and I'm solidly town reading them the majority of the game besides that first push they voted on me, but the way they handled it after was extremely townie.

I remember saying Clidd/Dkkoba is probably 1 scum, but I don't remember why anymore, but I'm sure there was a reason. This would contradict my earlier assessment.

The Not Mafia/Amelie fade in feels like a LHF push, even though I agree with one of those being scum.

If Clidd is scum, they are also scum with one of them 100%, so it also looks like distancing.

[Ahsoka]

I want Infinity or Clidd today.

[Ahsoka]

Why is gimli town? He putting in effort but it all feels very fakeable to me.

My d1 scumreads are usually very good, but I'm having a lot of doubts about this game. My gamestate-senses tell me that scum are doing a good job blending in.

Scum have 3 members in a 9 player game, you're looking at the game wrong if you are town.

[Ahsoka]

Gimli vs Dkkoba if there's scum in them, it's Dkkoba.

@Infinity - if you are town, I see absolutely no world where Dkkoba is town. Dkkoba been vote hopping left and right. They've been putting momentum swinging votes throughout this game, and frankly Gimli's posts just make sense to me, I don't really understand what people are pushing as scum with him.

I feel like he was just getting town read too much, and scum tried to setup a discredit. I feel like I haven't been in this game for a while, so coming in to Gimli being scum read like this seems completely opportunistic of scum. I'm definitely thinking too much into this, but nonetheless, that's how I feel. Even if scum wasn't aware, the natural feeling they had for the game likely came up anyways, and I don't believe Gimli's done anything that pushes a scum agenda forward.

He nearly single handedly stopped my wagon Day 1 in a position where if he was scum, he completely halted momentum on me, something that Dkkoba and Clidd both tried to keep pushing.

[Ahsoka]

Explain how.

can you like wait a minute so I can type my response...? This was completely unnecessary.

[Ahsoka]

I feel like it's probably not correct to use the list. The list is most helpful later on in the game. Right now, the scum can just say "2 people out of these 5 are scum" and it changes our probability of hitting scum from 1/3 to 2/5, which isn't much of an improvement.

@gimli Have you played with n_m before?

There's also 3 players not on the list who would be confirmed the number of scum in them based on it being the inverse of the list.

It is a pretty risky play, and there are pros and cons both ways.

[Ahsoka]

Hum, thanks Ahsoka.

At least you see what I see on Gimli, but 958 doesn't make much sense to me.

How? I'm almost positive there are 2 scum in the 3 I listed, unless I somehow named the entire scum team.

[Ahsoka]

And Clidd I specifically stated 1 of you and Kkoba yesterday, what don't you understand about you and Infinity?

It looks like you were setting up Gimli to be faded or Infinity was setting up Gimli to be faded, and was either convincing you, or you're both scum trying to get it through.

Scum have an easier time controlling this game because it's usually 7-2, but this game started 6-3, now it's 5-3. Nearly 50% of all players are scum at this point if you come from a town POV.

Infinity to me looks like he isn't coming from that POV, personally, and you look like you could be assisting Infinity into helping setup Gimli who was coming across as obvtown while simultaneously taking the opposite stance.

I have no clue why you don't understand why. Seems like a slight discrediting attempt without trying to duel me.

[Ahsoka]

Actually, I don't even know if Amelie and Not Mafia have scum in them. I just more specifically don't think they are both scum. They could be both town because I can see Dkkoba/Clidd/Infinity as the straight up entire team, and if I'm wrong with that as the team, I could just be wrong on Raya, which also can fit into that.

Not Mafia/Amelie have max 1 scum.

Amelie does seem to have the makings of a compromise wagon in the works, however it could just be a push to LHF scum.

[Ahsoka]

Explain how.

can you like wait a minute so I can type my response...? This was completely unnecessary.

Sorry I didn't think you were typing another post.

I don't see how gimli stopped your wagon per se. He explained the townread at a key point, yes, but scum can afford to do that when none of them are in danger.

I just don't see how koba's play has been agenda-based in general? Like the pushes on clidd and gimli were so aggressive that it seemed like they were trying to push those elims through. But scum!koba knows that that would never happen. Koba's play has been lacking since I replaced in though.

I should probably sleep and then do ISOs in the morning.

You miss the part where it's easy for scum to control the game in this game based on numbers?

Koba's Day 1 is incredibly game controlling, and is nearly responsible for the majority of the momentum shifts. This doesn't make them scum, but it is beneficial if they are scum, and is what they were doing if they are scum.

[Ahsoka]

957 is a reasonable interpretation of my attitude.

But the rest of the post seems a little traveled.

pedit: I'm towreading Infinity and I don't see how a vote for both of us would carry more weight than slots like Amélie or NM. I don't know if I understood your reasoning.

It seems to me that you are coming by associations instead of scumreading individually? correct me if I'm wrong.

pedit²: I still don't understand, I'll reread your posts.

We're in a gamelock, dude. And I've literally been pushing you since Day 1, so how is that by associations? Before it was specifically you vs Dkkoba based on individual reasons.

Explain your Infinity town read then.

Also, you stated that you think Gimli, Raya, and Infinity are town, yet you aren't pushing me or Kkoba, which is incredibly scummy. If you legit saw those 3 as town, from a town POV, and you specifically stated you thought 1 of Amelie/Not Mafia.

This implies you should be specifically thinking Dkkoba and I are scum.

[Ahsoka]

I feel like if koba was trying to control the game d1, they did a really bad job of it and overextended themselves. In the early d1 of bending they played a lot more reserved so they could actually gain people's respect and people listened to them sometimes. They did peter out, but that was more a function of not posting a ton of content than anything else.

What do you mean they did a bad job?

Gimli and I are the only ones pushing them as scum, I believe, and even then, I'm only having it in the POE because I can see it coming from town Dkkoba.

How did they do a bad job controlling the game? ScumDkkoba is not in a bad spot at all this game, and you're hard defending them.

If you are town, and Dkkoba is scum, they absolutely did not do a bad job of it.

[Ahsoka]

I feel like you guys are trying to wiggle out from me solving the game, when from my POV, it's impossible for scum to not be within the 3 of you.

[Ahsoka]

Not that they did a bad job of looking town, quite the opposite. They did a bad job of getting people to listen to them. Now no one is going to follow koba onto a wagon since everyone thinks they're bad at the game and are probably going to change their vote in 2 pages or something.

PEdit: I'm trying to work with you. I don't think clidd and koba are both scum because their interactions don't feel like scum theater, but I could see one of them being scum.

I stated if I'm wrong, then Raya can fill the slot.

I'm not not working with you guys, so I don't understand the "im trying to work with you comment".

I'm giving my reasons for scum reading you, I'm not calling you lock scum or anything. There is scum within you. This is not a debate for me. That's a fact, and with my posts, you can see exactly why that is the case.

It's essentially a POE grid.

And you are assuming that Dkkoba was playing in a way to get people to listen to them. They could have easily been trying to just have momentum gained, and this is more what I think. Their vote on Lostego helped momentum and got people to listen to me, not them.

That wagon happened extremely fast.

I guess there is the idea that Dkkoba/Gimli have 1 scum in them, and if you scumread Gimli, this makes some sense to town read Dkkoba, I just don't think Gimli is scum.

He protected me in ways that don't make sense coming from scum. Like, he has empowered me a lot this game, so if you’re pushing Gimli scum, you should probably push me as scum as well.

[Ahsoka]

I'm here. I still think Dkkoba/Clidd/Infinity 100% have scum in them

I don't think 100%, but I can see Dk being scum instead of Infinity.

It's only not 100% if you think Gimli is scum, something you stated you are town reading, alongside Raya.

Like, there's no reason it isn't a 100% for you here considering you also stated Amlie vs Not Mafia has 1 scum.

[Ahsoka]

I don't think you are both town, and I even think both of you could be scum here based on the way you keep trying to shut down my cases on people other than yourselves yet aren't pushing me as scum.

It feels like scum who are playing reserved because I have strong reads which makes it incredibly rough to push me.

Like if you guys are both scum here, and Dkkoba is town, this makes sense to me based on this conversation.

I'm essentially waiting to see if I see you guys try to reverse things around to help you out, because you will have to here.

If there is town in the 2 of you, I can't tell which is more likely town at this point.

I have more reasons to scum read Clidd, though, so on second thought, I guess I town read Infinity by default, I just really thought the Amelie/Gimli thread was poor.

Alternatively, one of you could have pocketed the other, which also makes it hard to discern between the two of you. I just don't know which would be the pockee or the pocketeer.

[Ahsoka]

Ok, question: Me and Infinity being town make you scum by poe, pov or etc?

No, we could be all town if Raya is scum, but then this would mean the team is exactly Raya, Dkkoba, and 1 of NM/Amelie

[Ahsoka]

or i could just be wrong on Gimli, but I don't have that read. Swordfighting like this can open things up, to be fair, so if I'm wrong, I feel I'll see it eventually.

[Ahsoka]

The way you did it didn't feel genuine though. You were like "how does gimli's last post ever come from scum" and I repeated a point that I had been saying for a while (gimli not going into depth in the places where I feel like he should) and then you said "ok I can kinda see that".

I don't understand what you're saying

[Ahsoka]

Alright, so I think that Infinity's probably the town getting pocketed of the 3.

[Ahsoka]

ashoka is playing an agenda and purposefully glossing over facts. I jusr woke up(my sleep schedule is fucked) but I'll explain later.

I always am playing to an agenda.

But I'm not purposefully glossing over facts.

I'm challenging them because I'm trying to see their direct line of thinking, and if you possibly think I'm scum here after the games we've had, then lol.

[Ahsoka]

game*? Idk. I guess that's not enough. They're getting what's called the Third Degree Boon.

But I was waiting for scum to try and discredit me. It was half the reason for my back and forth.

I expected it to come from one of them or Not Mafia, to be honest.

[Ahsoka]

<koba, clidd, infinity, amélie, NM>

find two townies and win the game.

YES YES YES

Two of Koba/Clidd/Infinity
One of Amelie/NM

[Ahsoka]

ashoka is playing an agenda and purposefully glossing over facts. I jusr woke up(my sleep schedule is fucked) but I'll explain later.

I always am playing to an agenda.

But I'm not purposefully glossing over facts.

I'm challenging them because I'm trying to see their direct line of thinking, and if you possibly think I'm scum here after the games we've had, then lol.

you know my MO. i dont like being on a consensus wagon that is town on d1 as scum.

I've only played with ScumYou, kkoba.

[Ahsoka]

ur doign that thing again where u can only point out "teamreads" instead of actually figuring out why ppl are independently scummy lmfao

it's okay, I've been doing the independent side of things, Gimli can take the team.

[Ahsoka]

let me break the math down for you

say we use the doomcounter and elim in the 2/5 list. if we do so randomly, the odds of hitting scum are 40%. 60% of the time we simply lose the game.

say we don't use the doomcounter and eliminate randomly in a 3/8. the odds of hitting scum are 37,5%, as opposed to the 40% with the list, and if we don't elim scum it we'll have a 3/7 chance next day, which is a 42,8% chance. the odds of randomly hitting scum here at least once in two shots is 68% (I think). your opinion here is so bad.

Honestly, I'm so happy with the Raya/Gimli townblock, I don't even care if it went through.

We have a 66% chance to hit scum in the trio.

I'm happy to play this mountainous.

[Ahsoka]

ur doign that thing again where u can only point out "teamreads" instead of actually figuring out why ppl are independently scummy lmfao

it's okay, I've been doing the independent side of things, Gimli can take the team.

U just scumclaimed with this post

lol I mainly scumclaim as town, learn your FL meta. I've only scum claimed as scum like twice.

I'm doing POE, and I have explained reasons on all 3 of you guys independently.

I have to figure out which I'm wrong on.

[Ahsoka]

dkkoba for the momentum shifting votes (yes, even if it is incorrect, and you end up being town, it's still a strong reason to believe you are scum)

clidd for the mismatched POE if they were telling the truth about their reads.

And the Infinity amelie/gimli push.

Not Mafia can be scum for possibly putting Gimli in the solve to help a teammate in Infinity or Clidd gain more standing, mixed in with the 1 scum in Amelie/NM combination.

Amelie can be scum for not posting that much, possibly avoiding the game because scum not knowing what to say.


If you think I don't have independent reasons, you're just plain wrong.

I have to figure out which 2 of these reasons are not coming from scum. Those 2 are not bad reasons, they're just not correct.

[Ahsoka]

k well if this is ur towngame then ur scumhunting sux no cap

How?

I've literally caught the entire scum team in my POE unless Raya slips by, which can be a possibility.

[Ahsoka]

posting habits arent alignment indicative. You know that.

It's not a posting habit, it's vote timing, and the effect it had on the game.

If you're town, it's fine, Dkkoba, then what you're saying is true. But if you're scum, then what I'm saying is true, even if you didn't mean for it to be that way, your natural instinct and playstyle did it for you, which benefited scum you.

If you aren't scum, it wasn't for your benefit.

That's all. If you end up being scum, then yes, that's 100% what happened. No doubts about it, even if you don't agree with that, it's true.

[Ahsoka]

gimli i explained why i voted lostego and i was only the 2nd vote there.
stfu with this weak attempt at a "gotcha"

Your vote timing is legit the best reason to scum read you. It's just happenstantial if you are town.

You need to learn this lesson if you are town here. If you're scum here, you do you, you got it.

I'm extremely not opposed to the idea of Infinity/Clidd scum pair, so

If we fade within the 3 of you, no matter what, you guys get screwed, because if the townie in you flips, you're both outed as scum, and if a scum flips, a scum flips, and we automatically make it to the 2nd list day.

[Ahsoka]

see this is my theory at what happened:
I voted, FL votes, FL tells you to put lostego at e-1 knowing NM will hammer

Bruh, you just got Flavor Fever. Please just trust me if you are town.

Dkkoba, the only reason I'm scum reading you at all here is because I know you can pull some stuff off as scum. Now quit this tunnel/discredit train if you are town, and reread Infinity/Clidd.

[Ahsoka]

I'd rather fade Clidd than Kkoba, but like Koba is starting to flail for some reason when they're not even my main scum read.

[Ahsoka]

Did you not read the vote timing and momentum shift stuff?

Honestly, that's a huge reason, Dkkoba.

I'm now assuming you're scum game is far superior to your town game.

[Ahsoka]

I think clidd is scum too dw dw ill help u bus

Deal.

[Ahsoka]

You start it, and I'll be the momentum swinger this time.

[Ahsoka]

my scum game is better than my town game. im better at deception than deduction but i've had much better success in the past 4 months as I've improved upon myself every game.

That’s good. You're still newer over here, but if it helps I said you're far better than Noraa. (only shade I'm going to throw that way this game )

Dkkoba, I really wanna town read you.

I think it's Clidd/Infinity, and you just have Flavor Fever. It happens after someone sees me pull some crazy shit as scum, and then the next game they play with me they get ultra paranoid.

[Ahsoka]

like im literally the 2nd vote on Lostego and suddenly im the scum on the wagon??

get real. my vote was clearly placed there feeling it out. what, you think scum!me guesses that town!gimli votes and puts them at e-1 so NM hammers???

I never said you were.

You're just misreading my posts.

I gave the reason.

Like post game, if you end up being scum, that is 100% true. It's not like non negotiable.

It's Gamefic, not me saying you're scum for it. I'm basically looking over everyone's resume and seeing what I like and don't like.

[Ahsoka]

I think I wanna trust ahsoka's scumreads, I admit it's incredibly hard to read the people in the POE and I have no experience with y'all. NM and amélie remain completely unreadable, and the other three have given me a multitude of reasons to suspect them and, in other situations, to TR them. to answer koba's question, that's why I'm trying to work out the possible pairings more than finding scum. to me koba is scum, but people that know them think this is AI, for instance, and IDK what to do with my feelings on the slot.

pedit: you were literally not the 2nd vote on lostego zzzzzzz

This is why I town read you, to be fair.

NM/Amelie are in a thing because Not Mafia push in this gamestate pretty much dictactes either he's scum sitting on TownAmelie, or He's correct on ScumAmelie, and Amelie doesn't know what to say.

It's literally a coin flip.

The Dkkoba/Infinity/Clidd situation is trickier because they've weaved themselves in the game to make whichever of the one in them that is town not look as townie. I think Dkkoba's probably town in a tunnel.

I expected Dkkoba to tunnel me anyways before this game because he thought he could read me after seeing 2 games of a new meta I was playing in.

They also got to see me from a partner POV, and that's always going to make people paranoid of me, but I'm actually even crazier town.

[Ahsoka]

oh
i thought i was the 2nd vote.

LMAO nvm i take it back. i still maintain my vote was meant to be pressure and not to lim :/

And I'm not saying it isn't. I don't think it's a bad vote. You did help get pressure. Lostego was not posting well.

Dkkoba, I literally saw you post in the game thread where I organized quickhammer. I'm not a one trick pony.

I'm like setting a trap on you, if that makes sense. If you are scum, you're gonna set off the trap. It smells it on you. Yes, the trap is alive. If you are town, it might snip you a few times, but it's not gonna kill you...yet...MOO HA HA HA

[Ahsoka]

People need to stop taking scum reads or possible scum reasonings on them so personally. that's literally the game.

[Ahsoka]

@KKoba - viewtopic.php?p=12194267#p12194267

Does this help understand a little more? I was April in that game.

[Ahsoka]

I give reasons for everyone to be scum because I feel that's how the game should go. This is very similar to my argument with people on Day 1, and how I actively started something. I actively create engagements so people are forced to take stances, which gives much more readable actions in game, and from there, I'll look at all the scummiest looking things, and solve from there.

[Ahsoka]

You're gonna hate this, but that vote looks like such a bus.

Like maybe it's not, and you're gonna say that Clidd and I are just scum together, and I'm setting you up, but townies can make things tht can appear scummy looking at it from certain angles. That's so funny.

[Ahsoka]

I do that too, that's how I got Gimli and Raya town reads.

[Ahsoka]

I also did it with you when I gave the possible reasoning for your tunnel a second ago and arguing/discredit for having Flavor Fever because that is a legit explanation for town you to be posting that way, and I agreed your vote could just look bad happenstantially.

[Ahsoka]

we have a week. I didn't expect this day to end like now now. Give some time for the peeps.

[Ahsoka]

{DkKoba, Ahsoka} -> 1 scum among them.

Nah, this isn't a certainty.

[Ahsoka]

Amelie vs Not Mafia is effectively worse because it's a 50-50 that leaves us in danger of having to pick within you 3 later, and you 3 are all more game controlling scum than either NM and Amelie would be.

Amelie and Not Mafia will become more obvious where the scum is in with them as the game goes on. That's a LHF push.

[Ahsoka]

It's objectively better to go within the 3 of you today because there's a higher chance of hitting scum and far more information revealed based on your guys' play.

[Ahsoka]

I think town!FL would scumread me harder here.

Lots of flexibility around my slot that I don't like.

All the structuring of positioning to solve the game entering D2 is also something I am not buying from a town!FL mentality.

What do you mean?

You're literally my top scum read.

[Ahsoka]

And yeah, if you guys wanna eliminate me or something, that's fine.

But after rereading the last few pages, I feel that Ahsoka broke the character and is playing like scum!Flavor imo.

I have broke character.

I feel like I've done some pretty great analysis this game, though

[Ahsoka]

So note every time Clidd comes to thread and I'm around, he has actively tried flipping the game.

Earlier I called him out because he wasn't scum pushing me, and now he comes back to do it.

[Ahsoka]

957 is a reasonable interpretation of my attitude.

But the rest of the post seems a little traveled.

pedit: I'm towreading Infinity and I don't see how a vote for both of us would carry more weight than slots like Amélie or NM. I don't know if I understood your reasoning.

It seems to me that you are coming by associations instead of scumreading individually? correct me if I'm wrong.

pedit²: I still don't understand, I'll reread your posts.

We're in a gamelock, dude. And I've literally been pushing you since Day 1, so how is that by associations? Before it was specifically you vs Dkkoba based on individual reasons.

Explain your Infinity town read then.

Also, you stated that you think Gimli, Raya, and Infinity are town, yet you aren't pushing me or Kkoba, which is incredibly scummy. If you legit saw those 3 as town, from a town POV, and you specifically stated you thought 1 of Amelie/Not Mafia.

This implies you should be specifically thinking Dkkoba and I are scum.

this is still the best reasoning for Clidd scum.

Note that he came in AFTER I said this, and pronounced reads thereafter where I was specifically calling him out earlier.

[Ahsoka]

Ahsoka, which solve is likely with Gimli, Raya, me and you as town?

Hello Miss Raya.

Spicy vote, but shouldn't you be scumreading me bc of the last pages?

Koba/Infinity/Not Mafia

Not Mafia pushed the scum team as Clidd/Amelie/Gimli when I was pushing the 3 group.

[Ahsoka]

It does feel like clidd's more nuanced reads considering POE are only coming because he was hardpressed to do them.

Ahsoka, if you feel that strongly about clidd near the end of the day, I think I'll join you. Right now I'm really just confused though. that 180 degree read putting both of us in his towncore is really shameless if he is scum.

pedit: good stuff raya. I think you're missing the point that our 3/8 comes with a 3/7 next gameday if we miss, and we don't have that opportunity with the list. I broke down the math somewhere in this game.

Honestly, I'm not like ultra confident in which of them is town, and while I town read Raya, and they are generally town, I do have some paranoia, and Raya being scum flips this game, which is something in the back of my mind with the 3 group.

@Raya - Why do you town read Infinity?

[Ahsoka]

that 180 degree read putting both of us in his towncore is really shameless if he is scum.

I mean, if he's scum, he did it to try to persuade me away from him.

[Ahsoka]

The clidd push kinda is what makes me nervous, but I'm always nervous about that kind of stuff. Like, I like the Clidd push by Raya, that's why I'm nervous. It makes me feel like there's a chance they're buttering me up, and if Clidd flips town, I'm an easy misfade.

Tinfoil, I guess.

[Ahsoka]

People just don’t understand my town game. It’s too complex for most

[Ahsoka]

I was a top 3 town player this year, and honestly, I get more town solves consistently on a yearly basis than almost anyone.

[Ahsoka]

I’ve even won more town games last year, than scum games, and I rolled scum more.

[Ahsoka]

I was a top 3 town player this year, and honestly, I get more town solves consistently on a yearly basis than almost anyone.

Last year

[Ahsoka]

And I caught you in that one game I was Comical, but you replaced out

[Ahsoka]

And the thing is, when I’m pushing the incorrect reads, I still win as town because it makes it so I play Devil’s Advocate, and then I end up on scum anyways.

I have one of the, if not the, strongest late game town play of the decade. Sure, my early game has been wrong, but i actively don’t care about early game as town. That’s for late game me to worry about.

I used to get Night Killed as town every single game, so I actively troll as town so I make it to the end game.

I push reads I don’t necessarily agree with as town so I make it to the end game.

There’s a reason there’s the famous quote “Scum should always kill Boon.”

I replace into a game during a night, SkitterScum kills me immediately.

Facts

[Ahsoka]

My ability to read gamestate is unparalleled.

I can physically feel how gamestates are going to change as town.

And I am the best at WIFOMing Scum.

[Ahsoka]

Clidd’s just discrediting my town game so I go off like that, and stop pushing.

VOTE: Clidd

Kinda sick of getting spam discredited by the 3 of them. Means I’m on the right track, though, that so many people are trying to discredit me.

[Ahsoka]

Although I believe that you are exaggerating about being top 3, as I see no statistical basis for confirmation.

Anyways, let's move on.

There's a literal statistical confirmation based on the amount of town game I've won/games I've full solved.

[Ahsoka]

Fuck it, publish the list.

[Ahsoka]

Your solve fits my POE, so if you are town, it's decently likely

[Ahsoka]

We're in a circular wifom.

[Ahsoka]

scum dominate this gamestate so it's always going to feel bad. Scum probably feel bad too right now.

[Ahsoka]

So if I feel insecure about something, it is the effect of the control exercised by the scum influence, not necessarily that I am wrong. Got it.

being wrong isn't bad. Ending up wrong is the bad thing.

[Ahsoka]

Not Mafia is the one that hammered here, though

[Ahsoka]

Not Mafia is the one that hammered here, though

and that's where the scum is there in Samantha.

[Ahsoka]

I really don't think it's Gimli, Koba.

I'm starting to lean town on you, but I think you're wrong there.

[Ahsoka]

"unprompted" stfu that game just ended and i felt it relevant considering our dear ashoka was aware i was town in that game and was following along

Yeah, it was a fair assessment. I don't think it's exactly the same, and I didn't really think about it that much considering it was late in the game, but I get the point you're trying to make.

[Ahsoka]

Hitting scum still brings us to lylo.

It's weird to me, because I feel there were more people pushing for the list earlier, which makes me believe that we're closing in, and I'm a high roller, so I'm okay to publish the list if we fade within Infinity/Clidd/Dkkoba. 66% chance before list publish, I think a list publish can confirm who scum is in them. I'm somewhat starting to like Dkkoba now, though, only thing is the Gimli push.

Gimli's like an 80% town read for me, and I'm not going to fade them today, sorry. If I'm wrong, we will find that out later.

[Ahsoka]

why is CLidd scum for you, Not Mafia?

Also, you down to publish a list?

[Ahsoka]

VOTE: list

also we're using the fucking list. we need mechanical info and im not playing mountainous here.

You need a scum elim before using the list thing

Not Mafia was actively against the list while Dkkoba was for it. Noting.

Dkkoba definitely slowed down talking about publishing the list.

[Ahsoka]

I'm comfortable with Raya being town and you too, Infinity.

But I think I'll want to see the list, considering that I'm not so sure on Amélie being scum vs NM being scum.

Clidd wanted to see the list too, but has said very little about it afterwards.

To be honest, I don't think anyone's brought the list up besides Raya after I came into this day phase and pushed Infinity/Dkk/Clidd.

[Ahsoka]

But yeah, I agree that the list is more useful if we have a strong TR base.

So maybe it is more valuable to reevaluate what we already know before consolidating (I will go back in my consolidation of Gimli and Raya, although they still TRs to me).



Is Ahsoka there?

Okay, they do back away from it a bit here. Hmm

[Ahsoka]

If we can agree on 4 townreads, the list would have to look like this:

2 UTRs
1 other town
2 scum

Leaving:
2 UTRs
1 scum

Which actually guarantees hitting scum if we elim outside the list. So publishing the list would be very good in that scenario, and

I think it's still beneficial if we can agree on 3 townreads.

I just don't think that's possible.

PEdit: you and amelie

Awesome. Infinity said if there's an agreeance on 3 town, then it's beneficial. We have that. He's not in it, but we do have it.

[Ahsoka]

if we had 4 townreads, the game would already be over by POE alone since mafia can never reach parity. Even in your description using the list would be completely pointless.

Yeah, I think Infinity is scum here. I expect him to fight against the list here.

[Ahsoka]

Actually, I think we can stop speculating about ''x'' or ''y'' scenarios using the list and etc.

Perhaps going back to the ''this is town or scum'' stage individually is better.

Depending on how the game flows, we won't even need to use the list if we are successful in identifying each slot.

thoughts, Clidd?

[Ahsoka]

And yeah, Gimli, Ahsoka is dangerous as scum, but in my experience of scum!Me vs town!She, I felt that her towngame is weaker than her scumgame. The advantage of town!Ahsoka is that she can reconsider at any time during the game, but this does not necessarily imply accuracy of read. On the other hand, scum!Ahsoka can create a good consistency and progression of reads, but I don't think she expands so much in the analytical sense, which is why I went back and forth with my read in the slot internally.

The more I think about this, the more I think Clidd is just actively trying to discredit me.

This was Day 1. I also don't care about Day 1 nor do I believe accuracy on Day 1 is all that important. That was also a bigger game.

Late game here came earlier, and I am a late game hyper carry.

I can do analysis as any alignment, I'm just lazy, and can argue without it.

[Ahsoka]

I took Raya's list examples and want to do my own stuff with it.

I'm going to assume 2 scum in the 5 player list. It could be 1 scum, but that's riskier, I think. Im not gonna overthink it right now.

Pair these up with me thinking 1 in NM/Amelie, 2 in Dkk/Clidd/Kkoba.

List example:
Ahsoka, Infinity, Amelie, Clidd, Raya
Gimli, NM, Koba

2 in Infinity/Amelie/Clidd, 1 in NM/Koba. this would mean either Amelie/Clidd/Koba, Amelie/Infinity/Koba, Not Mafia/Infinity/Clidd

List example:
Infinity, Amelie, Koba, NM, Raya
Gimli, Ahsoka, clidd

2 in Infinity/Amelie/Koba/NM, plus Clidd. Amelie/Koba/Clidd, Amelie/Infinity/Clidd, Not Mafia/Koba/Clidd, Not Mafia/Infinity Clidd


List example:
Gimli, Ahsoka, clidd, Koba, NM
Raya, Infinity, Amelie

2 in Clidd/Koba/NM, 1 in Infinity/Amelie. Amelie/Clidd/Koba, Infinity/NotMafia/CLidd, Infinity/Not Mafia/Koba

[Ahsoka]

Not Mafia/Koba/Clidd,

hmm.

[Ahsoka]

me, simply not reading this pointless theorizing when people aren't actually wanting to publish the list

what? We;ve literally been talking about publishing the list.

[Ahsoka]

VOTE: List

This game is setup so it's hard without the list, we've just been in circuluar wifom this day.

[Ahsoka]

he already stated why he would be okay with the list. He specifically stated "if you guys are okay with it, then I'll do it" to Raya and I.

Strike 2 for Dkkoba with questions like that.

[Ahsoka]

me, simply not reading this pointless theorizing when people aren't actually wanting to publish the list

what? We;ve literally been talking about publishing the list.

this was Strike 1.

[Ahsoka]

i guess it wasn't a question, but questions was the wrong word.

[Ahsoka]

you brought up theorizing being pointless if we weren't going to vote list, but we had literally been talking about pushing through the list.

You asked Gimli why he changed his mind, but it's literally right in the thread why.

[Ahsoka]

Raya and I have been talking to him about it for a while now, it wasn't a sudden shift.

[Ahsoka]

You know what, fine. This reasoning is decent (it's wrong and it's throwing, but there's reason there) and my classes are starting again so I can't get too involved with these forum games. if you and ahsoka want to do it, I'm okay with this.

JSYK, if NM is town this will cost the entire thing.

He spent a while actively pushing against the list, and he specifically stated if we want to do it, then he's okay with it.

[Ahsoka]

I find it odd you were the main person pushing to publish the list earlier.

[Ahsoka]

VOTE: List

This game is setup so it's hard without the list, we've just been in circuluar wifom this day.

Ahsoka, we've moved mountains this gameday. But anyway I think amélie is the only person we need to read thoughts from, as I think it's clear where everyone else is leaning and I'm a bit wary of what narratives the mafia will try to push depending on what the list looks like, so the faster we vote the list once it's clear we're doing so, the better.

Yeah, NM/Amelie's a coinflip for me. Sometimes I think NM's scummier, sometimes I think he's townier, but it's a coinflip.

[Ahsoka]

I find it odd you were the main person pushing to publish the list earlier.

K did i say i wasnt going to hammer? Are you trolling

This was more of a general thing. I believe I actually already mentioned this prior to right now.

I could be wrong, though, but I did think it.

[Ahsoka]

VOTE: list

also we're using the fucking list. we need mechanical info and im not playing mountainous here.

You need a scum elim before using the list thing

Not Mafia was actively against the list while Dkkoba was for it. Noting.

Dkkoba definitely slowed down talking about publishing the list.

Yep, I did bring it up already.

[Ahsoka]

I find it odd you were the main person pushing to publish the list earlier.

K did i say i wasnt going to hammer? Are you trolling

This was more of a general thing. I believe I actually already mentioned this prior to right now.

I could be wrong, though, but I did think it.

useless filler post

It was just a part 1.

[Ahsoka]

Infinity 324, Ahsoka, Not_Mafia, Gimli son of Glóin, Amélie - 2

Raya, Dkkoba, Clidd - 1

Essentially doing what I did for the examples posted earlier

Not Mafia/Amelie + Infinity/Gimli + Dkkoba/Clid/Raya

[Ahsoka]

Hmm what a surprise my solve is still possible now

Can we just elim clidd?

How is this something that's said with Dkkoba's last page and a half?

[Ahsoka]

Hmm what a surprise my solve is still possible now

Can we just elim clidd?

This looks like a partner helping Dkkoba's position in this game because of Dkkoba/Clidd having 1 scum in them.

Dkkoba's posting is indicative of scum who didn't want the list published, but had to anyways. There is no reason for Dkkoba who was the one pushing the list early in the day to be essentially needing to be pushed into the list publish. Every single thing Dkkoba was shading Gimli for coming out of nowhere had already been explained.

My guesses are Gimli/Clidd are the misfade plays for scum.

Dkkoba is going to try and open up me as well here, they were setting themselves up to do that before they voted to publish the list.

[Ahsoka]

What does that have to do with anything

it literally has to do with everything.

There is absolutely zero reason you should have been pushing Clidd that way with Dkkoba's play right there.

[Ahsoka]

Spoiler:

It does feel like clidd's more nuanced reads considering POE are only coming because he was hardpressed to do them.

Ahsoka, if you feel that strongly about clidd near the end of the day, I think I'll join you. Right now I'm really just confused though. that 180 degree read putting both of us in his towncore is really shameless if he is scum.

pedit: good stuff raya. I think you're missing the point that our 3/8 comes with a 3/7 next gameday if we miss, and we don't have that opportunity with the list. I broke down the math somewhere in this game.

Hullo! Not much time today, let's just get to it.

I'll pocket you again Gimli, if you give me more time.

The difference is that I'm town doing this.

I'm not in a hurry, but you made it hard for me if you're town here. I had already cleared you d1 and was unwilling to reconsiderate. At least you're townreading the towncore, which is the minimum I expect from you this gameday, and it was clumsy enough that it can come from town.

Idk what to think about Amélie.

Would like thoughts on her.

I've read her catchup already and I just don't think it's too AI either way. She needs more time in the thread so we can judge imo.

We can also stick with a plan of solving with town!Clidd theory and then consolidating into a mislim on me at the end of the day to deliver the correct information about the influence of my alignment on reads/affiliations/etc.

No.

I'm wondering if you all just want the list because you're eager to get new information no matter the cost, but be aware that this is something the mafia also probably wants.

I'm wondering if you all just want the list because you're eager to get new information no matter the cost, but be aware that this is something the mafia also probably wants.

I was thinking about mafia wanting the list or not and I don't think there's been enough of a push for it for them to want it that bad? It's possible they're worried about the list and how to slots are turning out D2. Also most likely in the same way there's strong pros and cons of both for town, I believe there are pros and cons of both for scum too. I still think overall it's to town's advantage to publish the list though.
And not to be pushy about this but I really think we should be talking about this more. There are clearly 2 very different outlooks on publishing the list and we need to figure out what's best for town soon. We have just under 6 days and if we do choose to publish the list we need time to consider it and reevaluate.

now that its over I'd like to compare my vote on Lostego as similar to my vote on TGP in this BoonSkiies game here: viewtopic.php?p=12441568#p12441568

I vote and then scum come in and quickhammer, I am not happy at this point as I was still gathering info. this is the same vibe i had with lostego

Why are you defending yourself unprompted?

Raya, I'm sorry if this comes out a little blunt but I have given the exact reason why using the doomcounter today is throwing the game and so far I read nothing but wishful thinking from you. If you wanna talk honestly about it, then please give me a PRACTICAL example of how the list can make us hit town TODAY because that's what we're going to need in order not to lose. Think, for instance, of the likelihood we're flipping NM this gameday and how the list would help either showing he is town or POEing him down as mafia assuredly. can the list do that? otherwise this is my last thought about the list:

let me break the math down for you

say we use the doomcounter and elim in the 2/5 list. if we do so randomly, the odds of hitting scum are 40%. 60% of the time we simply lose the game.

say we don't use the doomcounter and eliminate randomly in a 3/8. the odds of hitting scum are 37,5%, as opposed to the 40% with the list, and if we don't elim scum it we'll have a 3/7 chance next day, which is a 42,8% chance. the odds of randomly hitting scum here at least once in two shots is 68% (I think). your opinion here is so bad.

If you wanna argue in favour of the list, you have to show how my math is less important than the list.

Amélie with that gimli tunnel and now it's amélie, koba, infinity and NM scumreading me this gameday. Hopefully that's at least 2/3 scum, and there's a chance amélie is just having a hard time with her reads so this is fine.

pedit: neither are we 'shooting blind' by eliminating without the list. what I used was math, the best way math can be applied. all you in favour of the list have given me is that you wanna use the list.

@koba: if NM is town we're gonna lose by using the list, because we're going to just go for the compromise. if he flips mafia the game will get easier, sure, but we can flip mafia!NM today and then use the fucking list on d4 if we want to all the same.

@amélie: I'll talk about your catch up with you tomorrow, I wanna post good thoughts about it and now I'm too rushed to do that.

It's wrong because nothing justifies losing if our guess is wrong. But you know what, I get it. I don't wanna play d3 either if NM is town anyway.

I just did a quick skim of the end of the ISO, and each of these are Gimli going against the List.

[Ahsoka]

What does that have to do with anything

it literally has to do with everything.

There is absolutely zero reason you should have been pushing Clidd that way with Dkkoba's play right there.

The idea that you think I should do a 180 on my koba read for bringing up an (imo) reasonable point is beyond absurd.

Well, that's the exact thing.

I hard disagree that it's a reasonable point.

I think it's fine to bring up, but when you actually look at what was posted, Gimli's been against the list the entire time.

The actual reason that should be pushed is Gimli was fighting against it, so when it passed, it would look good because they were against it.

I just don't understand the thought process.

Gimli was like the only person going against publishing the list, besides Not Mafia.

[Ahsoka]

Like I was talking to Gimli about publishing the list, and I eased away from it for a bit specifically because he was against it, and I was fine playing mountainous for a bit, but then we got to a spot where it was circular wifom.

I feel like Raya and I spent a decent amount of time convincing Gimli, and you guys are acting like it was nothing.

[Ahsoka]

It also makes sense why Dkkoba was trying to shut down publishing the list when they made the "if you guys aren't going to publish the list, we don't need to talk about it" when we were literally doing it because we were trying to publish the list, but Gimli was against it.

[Ahsoka]

Like how is scum ever Clidd over Dkkoba here?

[Ahsoka]

I agree with koba that when push came to shove, gimli put up surprisingly little resistance to publishing despite believing (correctly) that doing so was gamethrowing

Like, I was also against publishing and I wanted to give it more time to discuss. But gimli didn't really give it that time and went pretty quickly to "stfu and publish". It's more of a timing/tone thing than anything, and I was gonna bring up the same poi t but didn't know how to word it.

PEdit: koba wasn't trying to shut don't the list, they were arguing gimli was scum

They were arguing a flawed case, and I was explaining to Dkkoba why what they were saying was untrue, and they came and said I was twisting their words when they were specifically the one incorrect.

[Ahsoka]

Spoiler:

It does feel like clidd's more nuanced reads considering POE are only coming because he was hardpressed to do them.

Ahsoka, if you feel that strongly about clidd near the end of the day, I think I'll join you. Right now I'm really just confused though. that 180 degree read putting both of us in his towncore is really shameless if he is scum.

pedit: good stuff raya. I think you're missing the point that our 3/8 comes with a 3/7 next gameday if we miss, and we don't have that opportunity with the list. I broke down the math somewhere in this game.

Hullo! Not much time today, let's just get to it.

I'll pocket you again Gimli, if you give me more time.

The difference is that I'm town doing this.

I'm not in a hurry, but you made it hard for me if you're town here. I had already cleared you d1 and was unwilling to reconsiderate. At least you're townreading the towncore, which is the minimum I expect from you this gameday, and it was clumsy enough that it can come from town.

Idk what to think about Amélie.

Would like thoughts on her.

I've read her catchup already and I just don't think it's too AI either way. She needs more time in the thread so we can judge imo.

We can also stick with a plan of solving with town!Clidd theory and then consolidating into a mislim on me at the end of the day to deliver the correct information about the influence of my alignment on reads/affiliations/etc.

No.

I'm wondering if you all just want the list because you're eager to get new information no matter the cost, but be aware that this is something the mafia also probably wants.

I'm wondering if you all just want the list because you're eager to get new information no matter the cost, but be aware that this is something the mafia also probably wants.

I was thinking about mafia wanting the list or not and I don't think there's been enough of a push for it for them to want it that bad? It's possible they're worried about the list and how to slots are turning out D2. Also most likely in the same way there's strong pros and cons of both for town, I believe there are pros and cons of both for scum too. I still think overall it's to town's advantage to publish the list though.
And not to be pushy about this but I really think we should be talking about this more. There are clearly 2 very different outlooks on publishing the list and we need to figure out what's best for town soon. We have just under 6 days and if we do choose to publish the list we need time to consider it and reevaluate.

now that its over I'd like to compare my vote on Lostego as similar to my vote on TGP in this BoonSkiies game here: viewtopic.php?p=12441568#p12441568

I vote and then scum come in and quickhammer, I am not happy at this point as I was still gathering info. this is the same vibe i had with lostego

Why are you defending yourself unprompted?

Raya, I'm sorry if this comes out a little blunt but I have given the exact reason why using the doomcounter today is throwing the game and so far I read nothing but wishful thinking from you. If you wanna talk honestly about it, then please give me a PRACTICAL example of how the list can make us hit town TODAY because that's what we're going to need in order not to lose. Think, for instance, of the likelihood we're flipping NM this gameday and how the list would help either showing he is town or POEing him down as mafia assuredly. can the list do that? otherwise this is my last thought about the list:

let me break the math down for you

say we use the doomcounter and elim in the 2/5 list. if we do so randomly, the odds of hitting scum are 40%. 60% of the time we simply lose the game.

say we don't use the doomcounter and eliminate randomly in a 3/8. the odds of hitting scum are 37,5%, as opposed to the 40% with the list, and if we don't elim scum it we'll have a 3/7 chance next day, which is a 42,8% chance. the odds of randomly hitting scum here at least once in two shots is 68% (I think). your opinion here is so bad.

If you wanna argue in favour of the list, you have to show how my math is less important than the list.

Amélie with that gimli tunnel and now it's amélie, koba, infinity and NM scumreading me this gameday. Hopefully that's at least 2/3 scum, and there's a chance amélie is just having a hard time with her reads so this is fine.

pedit: neither are we 'shooting blind' by eliminating without the list. what I used was math, the best way math can be applied. all you in favour of the list have given me is that you wanna use the list.

@koba: if NM is town we're gonna lose by using the list, because we're going to just go for the compromise. if he flips mafia the game will get easier, sure, but we can flip mafia!NM today and then use the fucking list on d4 if we want to all the same.

@amélie: I'll talk about your catch up with you tomorrow, I wanna post good thoughts about it and now I'm too rushed to do that.

It's wrong because nothing justifies losing if our guess is wrong. But you know what, I get it. I don't wanna play d3 either if NM is town anyway.

I just did a quick skim of the end of the ISO, and each of these are Gimli going against the List.

Like Dkkoba's reasoning is factually incorrect and this proves that.

[Ahsoka]

If we can agree on 4 townreads, the list would have to look like this:

2 UTRs
1 other town
2 scum

Leaving:
2 UTRs
1 scum

Which actually guarantees hitting scum if we elim outside the list. So publishing the list would be very good in that scenario, and

I think it's still beneficial if we can agree on 3 townreads.

I just don't think that's possible.

PEdit: you and amelie

Awesome. Infinity said if there's an agreeance on 3 town, then it's beneficial. We have that. He's not in it, but we do have it.

@Infinity - you specifically said this.

Also, if you were against publishing the list, why weren't you bringing this up when Raya, Gimli, and I spent a good amount of time going over it.

Why did Dkkoba wait until after we had already decided to publish the list to bring that Gimli point up?