Micro 1075: The Coalition of Imaginary Creatures (Game over)

[Keychain]

wow, i must be psychic, i checked mafiascum right as the thread started

HEAL: northsidegal
VOTE: keychain

Same! though tbf that's less psychic and more being excited to play lol.

HEAL: Keychain

[Keychain]

I'm so sorry about your psychic energy going bad though, it must have been fun while it lasted

[Keychain]

not adding yourself to your coalition Delta?

hold on, i need to harness this psychic energy while it's still in my body



yes... yes, i see it....

the scumteam is keychain and delta

Also yes fun intro, but either you're

way

quicker at finding images than me, or I assume this opening was planned out considerably ahead of gamestart

[Keychain]

HEAL: Dunnstral I like this aggressive coalition building

Sorry we couldn't do a rehash of your first game, Keychain. I guess you'll just have to settle for a subpar scumbuddy.

For a true rehash it'd have to be a lurker slot replaced what felt like a dozen times until I got a good scumbuddy to carry me, so you know... keep an eye out for that

[Keychain]

I'm a huge fan of meta reads but can't be bothered doing the research to make them any good

Also yes fun intro, but either you're

way

quicker at finding images than me, or I assume this opening was planned out considerably ahead of gamestart

well that would mean that i was lying about the psychic coincidence of checking mafiascum right as the game started, no?

is that what you think?

You can plan out a post and also be psychically checking ms as the game starts, I don't see how the two are related? My comment was more sparked by Umlaut saying he(?) liked the intro and adding you to his coalition, since I personally wouldn't get much tell from a pre prepared post. Also semi interested to see if you'd admit you prepared it.

[Keychain]

You can plan out a post and also be psychically checking ms as the game starts, I don't see how the two are related? My comment was more sparked by Umlaut saying he(?) liked the intro and adding you to his coalition, since I personally wouldn't get much tell from a pre prepared post. Also semi interested to see if you'd admit you prepared it.

perhaps my third eye is just closed, but to me i would say planning out in advance a post about what an amazing coincidence it is that you checked mafiascum just as the thread opened opened would be redundant / probably dishonest. it's not really clear to me what explanation there would be otherwise – i wouldn't consider repeatedly refreshing the page or anything to really be a "coincidence" or "psychic".

to actually answer your question, no, i didn't prepare anything. i just googled "crystal ball"

Oh damn your third eye is right, somehow I didn't connect the psychicness of you arriving early to your psychic reads and just assumed you were going to come in with psychic reads regardless, so that would indeed be an amazing coincidence. This all makes sense now, carry on

Interesting, we're seeing almost exactly the opposite thing here. I thought Key's entrance had a lot of frantic energy that came across as awkward, but is explained by the excitement she had in joining the game and therefore null to me.

I was camping the micro queue and then hassling people to join the game, your read of the frantic energy is correct and I

am

going to try and tone it down so the game isn't too annoying to read for the people who aren't here yet!

but in the meantime, HEAL: northsidegal. I was iffy on Delta but it's a good point that he's just saying the first thing that pops into his head

[Keychain]

VOTE: Delta
Not that we're eliminating yet, but this read on north seems to be based more on her being difficult to understand than anything else which feels like someone scraping for a reason. If it was just the vote that would be fine since votes are basically symbolic right now, but also pushing to remove her from coalitions makes it seem like it's more serious.

Also hi patch! I like your flag, though I haven't seen that specific one before and had to look it up.

[Keychain]

Delta, who would you be putting in your coalition from the active posters so far? You've got a lot of scumready kind of posts, but the first phase of the game is finding town.

Also HEAL: Umlaut, maybe I'm being pocketed because it's just all my thoughts but I liked 63!

i feel as though i'm unintentionally bringing a lot of negative energy here despite being excited for my first game in a while with a lot of people i'm familiar with. so, just to say it explicitly, i'm excited to be here with all you guys

<3

[Keychain]

Eh I don't think it's a bad thing to use the content you have and to expect other people to also do that, extending the phase of "there's nothing to talk about" beyond the first few posts makes for a more boring game I reckon. There's plenty to discuss and form opinions on already.

Considering 2 people haven't posted yet, I'm waiting until we hear from the remaining slots before I start plopping together a coalition.

This was not the response I hoped for! Though I'm also eager to hear from KawaiiKame and N_M, whenever they have the time to make their entrances.

[Keychain]

VOTE: KawaiiKame

I'm so flipflop on Delta... only having scumreads does come across as paranoid town, maybe picking to push people that are confusing is a NAI playstyle.

delta.... that's not what i'm saying?? im not sure how you're taking it that way. i feel like your vote on nsg feels like a stretch, and it's based on "not contributing" when they have in fact been taking part in discussion and the stupid psychic thing, when it's pretty normal to make jokes earlygame.

anyways policy tr for delta i'll probably revoke this later but he's just been generally towny so i might not

This is a pretty towny progression on patch's part, I think.

What progression?

[Keychain]

that's wonderful news!

I think when we eventually get contributions from them, reading into the wider game and associatives gives me a better chance of putting together a town-only coalition and winning us the game. I'm much more comfortable with using my vote than with trying to build a coalition to generate and develop my reads in the meantime.

Town mindset
HEAL: Deltabreedy

HEAL: Deltabreedy,Duunstral,Keychain,northsidegal,Umlaut

These posts as a total contribution so far from someone who (from a skim through their completed games) often posts multiple times over the course of a few minutes and asks a lot of questions is the shadiest thing I've seen this game, and picking the most popular coalition (Dunn's one, which is the same as Umlaut's and mine plus Delta) without even putting themself in it makes me want to throw out my whole coalition for having Kawaii's scum buddy in it

Arguing a bunch with Delta and saying his arguments against NSG make no sense, and then saying he's town. It seems like Patch is just giving their thoughts instead of trying to push some specific position or idea.

I guess I don't find this particularly AI personally - it could also be that Delta is one of the players patch is familiar with here so it's easier to engage with him over his arguments but separately from whatever read they end up with.

[Keychain]

I'm also a bit concerned that you don't like some of my posts! How are you reading KawaiiKame's posts differently? In looking through their completed games I didn't see any scum rolls, so their pop in behaviour seems pretty consistent with newscum "oh no I don't know how to pretend to be engaged". Unless I'm mistaken about their experience level, in which case someone feel free to correct me.

[Keychain]

That might be true, especially the first point, but it can be true whether they're town or scum - and yes of course you agree with them, it's your coalition! but it still doesn't really deal with the fact that they didn't hang around and didn't ask any questions, just popped in and out with the one comment and the coalition sheep, which is where my read on them comes from

[Keychain]

I think it's NAI, but dropping the 'Newbtown' as a qualified when discussing my play will only serve to delegitimise reads and arguments that I develop further down the line. I'd appreciate you recanting and reconsidering the wording.

big fan of this response feels like a very town thing to be concerned about, not sure scum would immediately identify that as an issue. plus generally agreeing with the Bingle analysis on Delta there HEAL: Deltabreedy

[Keychain]

I think it's NAI, but dropping the 'Newbtown' as a qualified when discussing my play will only serve to delegitimise reads and arguments that I develop further down the line. I'd appreciate you recanting and reconsidering the wording.

Disagree strongly. Newbtown frequently have better reads than established players. The only real change is how they're likely to react to certain situations, like injokes between fogeys.

sometimes new players are also vulnerable to townreading explanations more than they should, but being new (to the site or mafia) shouldn't in itself a reason for people to doubt you yeah

[Keychain]

Also before I go to bed:

wait mod what happens if we reach a lim before we vote on a coalition

Not the mod but coalition has to happen first. From Coalition section of game rules

During the Coalition phase, elimination votes will still be counted but no elimination can occur until a coalition has been locked in.

I do wonder if that means if we're at elimination majority then we lock in a coalition that fails, does the elimination immediately happen? We should probably avoid that

[Keychain]

(pretend I quoted the votecount comment bc I don't know how to selectively quote on mobile) it's ok Lilith you're just putting the "imaginary" in imaginary creatures

HURT: Umlaut
More because I'm feeling an absence atm than anything else.

My main feelings on the coalition are that Bingle, Kawaii, N_M shouldn't be in there.

I'm Bingle. Also Jingle.

I actually didn't know this until you inned to the game under Bingle - I'd seen a Bingle

around

but never really read your posts, just thought it was a coincidence that you had such similar names...

i think right now my exclusion pool looks like {kame, dunn, keychain, umlaut}

interestingly, this exclusion pool exactly follows the heuristic that scum tend to be found in the lower half of posting frequency.

the direction of causality that you think that follows depends on your faith in my abilities as a scumhunter.

Though I understand you didn't actually use the heuristic, being put in the "more inactive" half of the game because I try to condense my thoughts instead of bloating pages with one thought per post rankles a bit

[Keychain]

Though I do wonder if N_M would hang a scum partner out to dry like this?

[Keychain]

My main feelings on the coalition are that Bingle, Kawaii, N_M shouldn't be in there.

Also that north should be in there for sure, and Delta should probably be in there (unless he's scum with Bingle which I can't get out of my head). I know I just said I try and condense my thoughts but instead I'm steadily making myself late for work by having more thoughts

[Keychain]

Ok I saw that reaction coming between Delta and N_M I'm not a fan of policy elims though, and we need a coalition first anyway. Hi N_M, why so long before an appearance?

(I get it but it's annoying to take one night off Mafia and see people react this way)

Yeah that's fair, I didn't really take the time to check how long it had been and think about timezones etc before making that comment so it was definitely based entirely on my feeling.

Also boo bad internet connection ate my post

[Keychain]

did you just spontaneously remember or were you prodded?

Also I passed my first aid course!

[Keychain]

I was about to assume that made you town but not sure if a scum buddy would have been able to get your attention either. I guess quoting a random post of yours from somewhere else would give you a notification.

[Keychain]

Is that the main source of your scumread on me north?

Also sorry Delta, she's right in that you absolutely would be

the

buddy mark for me this game for sure if I were scum here, as you do seem to push things that feel "antitown" like being confusing and you respond well to explanations. regardless of if you're new or not

[Keychain]

to angleshoot this a little bit, assuming that NM is telling the truth about just randomly remembering, i imagine that if he had posted in the mafia PT before the game started he probably would have realized the game had started earlier. something to think about. (hopefully site rules haven't been updated to the point where i can't say this)

Yeah that's what I was thinkingish and decided

probably

not in 239 but still... it's pretty compelling

re Bingle, I'm a hypocrite but it's because I'm getting too many coaching/helpfulness vibes from him

Is that the main source of your scumread on me north?

the main source of my scumread on you at this point is that this is the first time that you've even acknowledged that i have been scumreading you, even though i've brought it up in some way about every third post of mine.

why would I address it? I think you generally have good reads. If you're town I think you'll probably correct yourself over time without me needing to try and convince you. If you're scum you're scum. what else is there to say except it would be hilarious if you were town and eliminated me D1? That's what I've mostly been thinking about your read which isn't game productive

[Keychain]

That's three people now who are pretty committed to newb-reading anything I say. Any argument I make can now quite easily be countered because a third of the playerbase now holding that narrative. There scarcely seems a point to me playing, there's now a ready-made argument against anything I say from now to game end.

Patchwork and kawaii joined last month (though I don't know their prev mafia experience), do you regard their reads as less important than your own or anyone else's on that basis? I think you bring clarity to the game in any case even if I don't agree with the reason for your reads/votes, by the way you react and the way people react to you, which I find really helpful

[Keychain]

This might be a you thing, because for me it's backwards. I find getting tangled in arguments whether I'm town with someone is a waste of my time since addressing it directly often entrenches them further in their read without improving my own - it doesn't personally help me read them. As scum I'm a lot more antsy about being scumread because I know they're right so I squirm more.

Also, you're not pushing except to not have me in the coalition. Sure I'd like to be in it because maths, but chances of the coalition passing aren't high so I doubt the game is going to end there anyway.

But if you'd like me to explicitly defend myself so you can correct your read - the most obvious point to me that I'm posting off the cuff far more than I'd normally be comfortable with in a game with players I'm familiar with. Bingle commented on frantic energy early on, which is true, but it would be less visible as scum because I'd channel it into the scum pt. I'd post much more slowly and carefully because I'm an anxious mess as scum who hides it with carefully constructed cases.

[Keychain]

... What is a mafia coalition

[Keychain]

Ah I was thinking a coalition with all mafia, that makes more sense. Yeah but 1 in 5 is not improved odds from 2 in 9... unless I can't do maths

- the most obvious point to me that I'm posting off the cuff far more than I'd normally be comfortable with in a game with players I'm familiar with

I'm getting this flow of consciousness feel with you which is why I'm town reading you I feel

Thanks! the lack of it from you is why I'm scumreading you

[Keychain]

agh! :/

[Keychain]

this is, in my opinion, the complete wrong mindset to have (as town) when playing this setup. we need to be striving for absolute perfection in the coalition, and if we fail in that it gives us valuable information in that we've gone wrong somewhere before we've even had an elimination. empirically, this also ignores the actual history of the setup –

most times that town has won the coalition, they win it through passing a correct coalition

.

it's not so much that i

want

you to defend yourself as it is my expectation that you already would have at least acknowledged the matter if you were town.

I absolutely have not read the history of this setup! and you are wrong - acknowledging you having me at the bottom of every readslist without any other comment beyond your rvs psychic thing is not something I'm particularly interested in directing conversation towards because like I said, it does shit for me figuring out who's town or scum. As town I interact in ways that support developing my reads and leave you to yours, as scum I have a lot more interest in adjusting other people's reads, especially of me. I only brought it up when I did because you suggested a reason and it became interesting since it seemed similar to my read on Bingle.

If you're determined to leave me out of the coalition, a perfect town coalition becomes a lot harder for you to attain unfortunately.

[Keychain]

I quite like that set though I'm not sure how I feel on patchwork

[Keychain]

Kawaii's contributions being mostly setup based still look forced to me

@Dunn: do you have any stronger opinions now esp on the coalition? Most of your posts feel like they're saying how you don't really have any strong opinions

[Keychain]

probably because of that whole limming within the coalition thing?

Eiralox replaces Deltabreedy. Thank you!

welcome!

[Keychain]

HEAL: Not_Mafia
ew I forget there are other themes on this site

[Keychain]

I'm willing to hurt not_mafia in a heartbeat

Damn coldblooded! I think late arrival then contributions from N_M have been towny.

What do you mean by using p-edit? I usually interpret it as an edit for if someone posted before you hit submit but you were multiposting.

[Keychain]

I feel like Delta/Eira is spewed town here

God yes

So, the thing I didn't explain earlier is this:

Coalition Victory > 2 Scum in Coalition > 2 Scum outside of Coalition. If you are absolutely sure that scum will be on the coalition, you want both scum on the coalition. You also want high priority nightkills on the coalition, because then scum is forced to make the suboptimal choice of narrowing the coalition pool if they want that person dead. Which is why nsg is 100% on the coalition. Delta slot (Hey Eir) is pretty obvtown at this point.

Not_Mafia, even if he were modconfirmed town, is a shit option for a coalition slot, because scum will never shoot him, unless we actually commit to the policy elim. I'm not interested in the policy elim at the moment.

If we choose an accurate coalition, game is over. If not, limming on coalition is a 30% to hit scum (naive calculation with the assumption that P(1 on and 1 off) and P(Both on) are the same) and off coalition is a 12.5% to hit scum. If we can increase the odds that both scum are either on or off (by seperating S/T reads and collecting S/S reads) we approach a 40% lim rate on D1, which is a pretty good consolation prize.

It's like Monty Hall, the odds of switching your choice giving you a car are better than you might intuitively guess.

I'm glad you've found plenty of setup spec to entertain yourself! Though I do think Umlaut's strategy appeals more to me, especially since it's late enough that I can't even tell if you're suggesting we put scumreads on the coalition

[Keychain]

This sort of seems like you're assuming Keychain sees the game the same way you do. I tend to agree with her that directly arguing I'm town is typically a waste of time.

it's not about "directly arguing I'm town", which i don't expect. it's mainly about the persistent avoidance, which i have seen scum do before

Ok I'll keep biting because I'm legitimately curious about this now

even though

I still don't believe it's game productive because I doubt this conversation will change your mind. "persistent avoidance" is such a strong term for continuing to do my own scumhunting because I was sure you'd realise your mistake without my help once you got a bigger sample size of my behaviour in this game. I seriously can't think of why I'd want to engage with you over it and what it would have brought me. asking about your read of me is meaningless because I know it's wrong! It's not like I'm going to change my behaviour because of your read because I'm doing my best already and I don't expect to be able to convince you, so why would I care?

like don't we just end up in this same sort of conversation where you're insistent I'm scum (for whatever the original reason was) and there's nothing I can do about it? what

was

the original reason for putting me at the bottom then? was it just to get my attention?? how would this have played out in a more productive manner earlier in the game north please help me understand, your conception of my town behaviour is so alien to me

[Keychain]

Umlaut I desperately want you to be town since you're in sync with my thoughts on everything except bingle but that also makes it so hard to read you

[Keychain]

i find the idea that you expected me to at some point just go from "i will never be okay with a coalition that includes keychain" to townreading you to be, if not somewhat unbelievable, at least a very surprising mindset. it makes me wonder – if that

didn't

end up happening at some point, would

that

be the point at which you finally brought anything up yourself? would you just hope that a coalition passes that manages to include you anyways, and people ignore my read on you? or would you just not expect to be in the coalition? you've said already that you don't expect the coalition to pass anyways. i don't think that i could really say that this is a scummy mindset, but i find it again very surprising to come from town.

i don't think that my conception of your behavior is actually as strange as you're implying. if, as you've said, you believe that you're playing your towngame here (or otherwise in a towny manner), i don't think that it's entirely unreasonable to be at least somewhat concerned or interested in someone whose reads you've indicated you trust completely misreading you. town wins this setup by forming strong, mutual townreads.

I feel like the timeline from my perspective should be clarified here: I wasn't engaging while you were just putting me at the bottom of your readslist because I don't expect your reads to be instant perfection and left you space to reassess.

You said you wouldn't be ok with me on the coalition while I was asleep. I woke up, read the game because I'm obsessed with it at the moment and made like 3 posts with the thoughts I had, and commented that it would be silly for you to scumread me on activity here but otherwise didn't have much to say about it bc idk, it was early and just one thing in a whole bunch of things I'd read? it wasn't super meaningful to me. Off the top of my head I felt like I was mostly unpopular in coalitions when I posted this morning, no idea if that's factual since I didn't check so it's not like it was a huge change in gamestate to me that needed to be urgently addressed.

Then I did bring it up in 250, after you hinted it might be an interesting reason that would be good to discuss, related to my read on bingle, etc etc. That's why we're discussing it now. It's not like there was a huge time period of you really staking that position and me ignoring it.

As far as mutual townreads go, I agree they're important, I formed my townread on you, now it's your turn to see me forming these reads and scum/town hunting even if you think it's suboptimal and meet me halfway please! This is lots of fun but it would really help if we could be on the same side here.

asking about your read of me is meaningless because I know it's wrong!

i'm having a hard time finding the words to explain exactly how i disagree with this. like, if i had a cop innocent on someone who you were strongly scumreading, probably the first immediate thing i would do would be to ask you why you were scumreading that person. earlier this game, i saw that delta was making some reads seemingly based on people being unhelpful, so i said something to the effect of "hey, i think that you're making a mistake here". i don't think that what i'm saying here is fundamentally different from any of that.

This is again a playstyle thing I think rather than a town/scum differentiation.

[Keychain]

I do think we should start finalising the coalition - it presents a potential immediate loss to scum so I think it'll be useful to see. I started looking at who's voting who for the coalition to see any patterns but my lunch is over, just making a note for myself to continue it later

[Keychain]

These are the current votes for each player to be on the coalition for reference from the votecount as of this post, please correct it if I messed up, manual votecounting and reformatting is a nightmare.

Eiralox

(9): Eiralox, Keychain, patchwork, KawaiiKame, Not_Mafia, northsidegal, Umlaut, Dunnstral, Bingle

northsidegal

(9): northsidegal, Keychain, patchwork, KawaiiKame, Not_Mafia, Eiralox, Umlaut, Dunnstral, Bingle

Keychain

(4): Keychain, KawaiiKame, Not_Mafia, Umlaut

Umlaut

(4): Umlaut, KawaiiKame, Eiralox, Dunnstral

Dunnstral

(4): Dunnstral, Keychain, KawaiiKame, Bingle

Bingle

(3): Bingle, patchwork, Umlaut

Not_Mafia

(3): Not_Mafia, Keychain, Eiralox

patchwork

(2): patchwork, Not_Mafia

KawaiiKame

(0)

The fact that Kawaii's coalition is exactly the 5 most coalitioned players bothers me so much since if we were going to do partner hunting, I'd assume scum!kawaii's partner would be in their coalition

[Keychain]

HURT: Dunnstral
HEAL: Umlaut

Umlaut I desperately want you to be town since you're in sync with my thoughts on everything except bingle but that also makes it so hard to read you

Where are you on Bingle right now?

Leaning scum - I feel like he has good posts but what feels like most of them are generic helpfulness/coaching and setup discussion, I associate too much of that with scum

[Keychain]

Bingle - conftown from my POV
Eiralox - treating this as spewed town today. The particular frustration at N_M is a town one, I think. I doubt scum gets that upset over N_M being unreadable when N_M doesn't look unlimmable.
Not_Mafia - I'm not going to bother partner hunting N_M, I don't think that's a useful way to spend my time.

northsidegal
Dunnstral
Umlaut
patchwork
KawaiiKame
Keychain

That's 15 scumteams for me to examine. I can handle that.

I'm excited to see how this goes.

i'm honestly not too sure on who to coalition but i'm currently trying to figure out who i Don't want in my coalition. maybe i'm making some wrong choices here but i just listed the three names that felt the most towny to me
probably going to think about it more though, i haven't really analyzed players yet.
bye!

would love to hear whatever your most recent reads are even if they're not rock solid

[Keychain]

Loving those pair names, except for the ones that are bad

Locksmith: 92 Seems like it could be partner/partner. First point of interaction between the two, and it's a request from Key to have Umlaut explain a townread on patch. This is a great way as scum to cement a townread on your buddy, which I know Keychain knows having used it to great effect in her literal first game.

While that's an excellent callback to that game proving your memory is better than mine, "what progression" was not asking him to explain the townread, I just didn't see any progression between the two posts so was asking about that.

And your imaginary Keychain is correct Shirley, if Kawaii were my partner struggling with one of their first scum games, I would probably not jump on them so hard from their very first post, read up on how they're acting different than previous games to push them before the people with direct experience with them can chip in, and keep them as my top scumread ever since their appearance unless they asked me to bus them because they were hating the game, that's technically possible. I feel I'd be much more likely to try to make it easier for them to post naturally - I might fail, but I'd give it a shot first.

I look forward to the conclusions!

or maybe im just shit at the game idfk

patch are you normally pretty confident as town or no?

[Keychain]

Like I know I should probably be doing something better than just sitting on my heals but I think NSG/Keychain/Eira are all obvtown and Bingle is, if not obvtown, the best candidate we have.

best buds 4 life unless you're scum in which case... pocketed 4 life. but also N_M over Bingle

[Keychain]

Yeah but give me a second, I was writing this post

I need some guidance on northsidegal, I'm not sure whether to trust or not to trust.

I'll also like your opinion: if I'm considering to heal KawaiiKame and patchwork(I might be) do you suggest I stay away from them completely or can they actually be good picks?

I feel like I've been pretty clear on my Kame thoughts! they seem like nervous scum to me and I'll feel awful if I'm wrong and I tunnelled them like this but oh well ignorance is bliss

On patchwork I'm leaning town now, partly because their blatant struggle to have any strong opinions feels like paranoid town, but I do want to look through some of their completed games before I commit any harder.

I'm trusting north as town at this point. I don't remember what made me think that originally but now I don't really think she deliberately picks this fight with me as scum though maybe that's giving her scumgame too little credit.

patch are you normally pretty confident as town or no?

i'm usually not very confident at all

understandable, but can you give like a rough list of the players from most wanted in the coalition to least? I'd like to get more opinions from you

[Keychain]

Where are you on Bingle right now?

Leaning scum - I feel like he has good posts but what feels like most of them are generic helpfulness/coaching and setup discussion, I associate too much of that with scum

A lot of them are that, but Bingle is also the top poster in the game. If you take away the kind of content you're talking about, what's left is still pretty good I think. I found 57, 124, 139 for example to be good while also being about forming reads and advancing the game. I also think the read on Kame in 154, while I disagree with it, is not the sort of thing scum makes up (unless the team is exactly Bingle/KK maybe, but on balance still towny), and the questioning me for clarification in 226 just felt... like a real question, which I suppose it could be but I feel like scum wouldn't care so much to ask as long as I'm townreading them on net.

I agree he has good posts though I'm not sure they outweigh the fluff that feels more empty to me - people naturally have different posting rates, it's more of a percentage thing, and by percentage I mean how much I feel like it's one or the other because I haven't counted. 226 is certainly one of those good posts. 57 is one of the posts I was thinking of more as generic helpfulness with not much personal opinion though.

Overall I don't think he's sure scum but I also feel like N_M's contributions have been pretty insightful so I like him more for the coalition - also 232 after trolling delta who was clearly getting pretty pissed seemed like a pretty town about-turn

[Keychain]

understandable, but can you give like a rough list of the players from most wanted in the coalition to least? I'd like to get more opinions from you

me
delta/eira
nsg
keychain
bingle
kawaii
umlaut
dunnstral
n_m

note that this is a very rough approximation. some players havent' caught my attention so they just naturally have to be nearer the bottom, bingle i used to tr on vibes but now i'm a little more skeptical of, umlaut i literally do not remember being here at all and i know they've been posting it's just like they haven't been really there
same for kawaii they're just not doing anything
n_m's at the bottom because cringe, but their play feels more towny than not

which reads are you most confident on? (even if that's still not very confident)
Also you mentioned not wanting dunn in the coalition before and have him low here again, any specific thoughts there?

[Keychain]

Bingle's latests posts going through feasible scumteams exhaustively (from their point of view) doesn't strike you as a towny level of effort?

Nah but that's because I don't think effort is AI for bingle (see his earlier comments about how good he is as scum). I've seen him do the scumteam thing as town before, I doubt he'd let himself acquire such an obvious tell by never doing it as scum.

How badly do you want N_M in there? I will pretty much never be comfortable with them as town, I've seen too many of their scum games.

HURT: Not_Mafia then, we need agreement and this is essentially a veto yeah?

[Keychain]

Coalition

northsidegal
Eiralox
Umlaut
Keychain
Not_Mafia

Compromise

patchwork
Bingle

Veto

Dunnstral
KawaiiKame

[Keychain]

Yes have a happy birthday if it's your birthday N_M!

[Keychain]

Too short on time to think about this game in depth tonight but later on definitely want to think about Bingle's patchwork read, and also why Umlaut and Bingle's respective familiarity with N_M led them to opposite conclusions on his towniness

NSG/Key

the DREAM, the THEATRE

Umlaut/Key

including me/um as a pair doesn't follow from your comments about our interactions?

Also 436 self meta is acknowledged but I'm not just talking about mech but also what I think I called "generic helpfulness" - I didn't call it buddying because I view buddying as targeting a specific player but the generic helpfulness is more a way to look like you're ~progressing the game~ particularly to newer players

I'm pretty sure I'm making fuck all sense at this point I'm tired I'm going to bed

[Keychain]

Bingle I feel like you just went to a parallel dimension, none of your recent posts make any sense. I was feeling better about you but that feeling has tanked and I'm considering moving you to veto

this angle

I assume you mean the specific angleshooty thing? Why not?

He posted in the wrong game and

immediately

clarified that, so this is a pointless question

patchwork

Any inclination to engage with why I'm scumreading patch?

No.

Why not?

What is this line of interrogation? you said yourself that eira is spewed town

including me/um as a pair doesn't follow from your comments about our interactions?

Also 436 self meta is acknowledged but I'm not just talking about mech but also what I think I called "generic helpfulness" - I didn't call it buddying because I view buddying as targeting a specific player but the generic helpfulness is more a way to look like you're ~progressing the game~ particularly to newer players

You/um doesn't seem likely, but I'm not taking it off the table as a viable possibility at the moment.

Can you point at any posts of mine that look like they're progressing the game but actually aren't?

Firstly I'm not going to convince you you're scum so continuing to make me rehash my reasons isn't going to do much, just looks like you're trying to make me second guess my read on you which is since you're already in my compromise bucket. Secondly in your indepth analysis of me/um interactions which covered this topic, how did you miss 398 where I give an example to him? if that doesn't suffice, all the posts I just quoted would also qualify

[Keychain]

someone bother me if i don't do a full reread of the game today, please.

bother bother, time is running out

[Keychain]

Nsg's argument boiling down to "he's lurking so he's mafia" is bothering me and I'm trusting Bingle's analysis on pairings.

why do you take issue with that read - do you think you're lurky regardless of alignment? also why do you trust Bingle's analysis? I'd take it with a huge grain of salt since it doesn't include himself and N_M.

[Keychain]

HEAL: Not_Mafia
that should put me at um's coalition. I'd also take patch, or Bingle at a push.

@Bingle I know you directed a post at me but I'm not able to properly read and respond atm, just here to get a coalition sorted before we have no time to organise an elimination. Mmay revisit in a few hours if my headache goes away!

[Keychain]

We have less than four days remaining so at this point I'll take anything that doesn't contain kawaii or dunn to avoid day ending without elimination if coalition fails

[Keychain]

We have less than four days remaining so at this point I'll take anything that doesn't contain kawaii or dunn to avoid day ending without elimination if coalition fails

Seconded

Eira not to pocket you please don’t take this as pocketing but I would follow you to the ends of the fucking earth. Literally your vibes are SO on point. You want me to vote someone? Sure. I’ll even help you scumcase them.

These are exactly what give me the bad vibes from patch, fwiw.

Ok you're not wrong here and patch (who is not in the coalition gaining steam) supporting Eira stalling and breaking it up instead of... idk, delivering on that statement in 534 and hammering the coalition so we have TIME to discuss any elim after doesn't feel great for their alignment. It does make me a bit more confident in the coalition that no one has hammered it in the last 12 hours

actually i am just fully gonna sheep keychain

spooky

[Keychain]

I'll count some votes to hopefully win N_M's support on this coalition because I'm feeling too much time pressure to consider changing anything about it now, and patch's posting looks a bit like a hail mary.

[Keychain]

It would be lovely to hear from everyone before there's an actual hammer.

I love this sentiment and the desire to have everyone weigh in Eira but also - if the coalition is right the game is over, if we're wrong we have very little time to organise an elimination already. We can discuss more and everyone can chip in before deadline if the game is still underway. No other coalition is going to get enough support in time to also discuss an elimination so please put me out of my misery and hammer this so I don't have to count the votes for N_M, I already regret promising to do that, manual votecounting is SO painful

[Keychain]

oh an official one is probably incoming but this is my count, grouped the consensus coalition at the top

Keychain (5): Keychain, northsidegal, Eiralox, Umlaut, Not_Mafia
northsidegal (5): northsidegal, Eiralox, Keychain, Umlaut, N_M
Umlaut (5): Umlaut, northsidegal, Keychain, Eiralox, Not_Mafia
Bingle (5): Umlaut, northsidegal, Keychain, Eiralox, N_M
patchwork (4): patchwork, northsidegal, Eiralox, Not_Mafia
KawaiiKame (5): Eiralox, Dunnstral, Keychain, northsidegal, Umlaut
Not_Mafia (5): Not_Mafia, Keychain, patchwork, northsidegal, Eiralox
Eiralox (5): Eiralox, Not_Mafia, Keychain, patchwork, Umlaut
Dunnstral (5): Dunnstral, Umlaut, Eiralox, Bingle, northsidegal

[Keychain]

keychain the main thing for why I'm not hammering is that Bingle, Umlaut and northsidegal were super quick with jumping onto this coalition, especially with the Not_Mafia heal.... before you and me healed Not_Mafia everyone seemed like 'Yeah nah ain't happening.' And northsidegal suddenly trusts you and Umlaut?

So if there's scum in the coalition hearing reasons for why those with this coalition so quickly adopted it can sort of help town in the long run on a failure?

i'm sorry I've never played a coalition so me being cautious is sort of the default mode I'll be in here. Like... people sort of will talk differently if they need a specific coalition though instead of after the fact? I'm sort of sensing that in Bingle ngl. Ugh. Basically, I'm not ready, sorry for making things harder for you I guess.

Between timezones and people having lives (I know I'm going to be busy as hell tomorrow for example), getting an elim together in less than three days is already going to be a mission, I don't think I'm the only one feeling time pressure so I'm not surprised it formed quickly but quick thoughts on that:
- Nsg if town hasn't taken the time she needs to push a better coalition or reevaluate, she doesn't have much choice
- Bingle already had n_m as a townread iirc
- Um's reasoning there is more shaky but following it for consensus makes sense based on his townreads on me and bingle

Basically if there's scum on the coalition I want to know that now and move on asap, I don't think Kawaii for example is going to come out with anything so groundbreaking at this point that makes it worth holding off the coalition judging by their contributions thus far

The current coalition will definitely fail because nobody is trying to change it. And if it were all town mafia would lose instantly, so they'd be up in arms about it.

patch has been, kawaii has been lurking and might be resigned to a loss, obviously fmpov you're doing this literally right now

[Keychain]

Happy scumday Dunn! if you're town just hammer the coalition mate, coalition failing does not mean town loss so there is no need to pull out the galaxy brain moves here which leave us in the shit if they fail

and even if your flipping idea gave us a perfect coalition somehow while excluding Eira, you're not going to get enough support for it in time because scum obvs won't vote for it and so you'll need to convince 4 full townies to agree with you asap. And for the info produced by a failing coalition (since I still think it's very optimistic to assume we'll win the game on this) I'd rather know there's scum amongst relatively active+widely townread players who are also in the NK pool than the inverse.

[Keychain]

About any coalition at all. I think this coalition is good but I've been wrong far too many times to say I'm

sure

it's the win, and this will apply to any other coalition as well

[Keychain]

Oh look I passed 1000 posts, how lovely.

[Keychain]

Ugh thank you N_M this was driving me crazy. I'd assume immediately (or as immediately as lilith notices it)

We should probably elim from within the coalition yeah, I think that's generally been agreed on as correct hasn't it? north is normally nk bait anyway so I wouldn't want to eliminate her d1, eira is locktown for me, so I'm looking between N_M and my bff Umlaut which isn't my

favourite

choice tbh

[Keychain]

I do have to go to sleep now though so I guess I'll hope I wake up to a town win?

[Keychain]

Thanks for the speed but also boooo VOTE: Not_Mafia I guess??

[Keychain]

north is normally nk bait anyway so I wouldn't want to eliminate her d1,

I think that this is a weird stance

Her vanishing second half of the day is pointing more to scum (though I'm sure she's improved from the days where she used to hard lurk as scum), but if she's alive and town D2 she probably benefits town a lot. So there's a decent chance she gets resolved overnight by mafia fearing her since all players in the coalition (except potentially N_M?) would probably have reason to, so I'd rather not waste the elimination on her. Is the expanded version of that stance.

[Keychain]

I will reevaluate at first opportunity! but also please note north's vote is still on me according to the votecount, so that's 3. I'd rather not be accidentally eliminated thanks.

[Keychain]

Umlaut I have this awful feeling you're going to stab me in the back at some point but sure, I don't have a better plan VOTE: northsidegal

[Keychain]

Alrighty miltank if I'm town and north flips town who could be scum fmpov? It's basically you or umlaut, you can't see why I

might

be a little concerned about his alignment at this point??

it's the north vote for me because like I said, no better plan.

[Keychain]

@lilith: this VC seems off - I think I should be voting for Not_Mafia rather than N_M voting himself and also me

V OTECOUNT 1.017
E LIMINATION V OTES
P LAYER N AME	C URRENT V OTES
Keychain (3)	northsidegal, Not_Mafia, Eiralox
patchwork (0)	None
KawaiiKame (0)	None
Not_Mafia (1)	Not_Mafia
northsidegal (1)	Bingle
Eiralox (0)	None
Umlaut (0)	None
Dunnstral (0)	None
Bingle (0)	None
NOT VOTING: patchwork, KawaiiKame, Dunnstral, Umlaut
With 9 alive, it takes 5 votes to eliminate. Deadline: (expired on 2023-04-06 14:49:20)
Notes: no imaginary creatures here

[Keychain]

It's more that if umlaut is scum pocketing me, his play is probably to get me to help elim north today then eliminate

me

tomorrow since I'm in a much more precarious position than him. so yeah super hope he's not doing that and if he is it'll make me feel better later if I at least acknowledged the possibility!

[Keychain]

jfc I think I just lost several minutes of my life hypnotised by your avatar

boop, fixed 1.017

thanks!

[Keychain]

Yes I somehow read your mind and posted all your thoughts before you to pocket you (since iirc that's why you were townreading me), my scumgame is on another level nowadays

Umlaut I have this awful feeling you're going to stab me in the back at some point but sure, I don't have a better plan VOTE: northsidegal

I mean yes if NSG flips green I am most definitely going to want to yeet you tomorrow, I pretty much said that already in 667.

Ok great we're all on the same page I'm surprised you're confident enough in n_m to group him in with eira but who am I to judge! I'll just hope for a north red flip today so we don't have to 1v1 tomorrow, it'd break my heart Um

[Keychain]

(for legal reasons I just want to clarify the heartbreak is in-game heartbreak only, I would not actually be personally upset at all, it is a joke/turn of phrase/dramatic exaggeration)

[Keychain]

distinct lack of north since the coalition vote failed means I don't dislike this vote as much as I did previously apart from that I don't really have further thoughts - I'm not going to reread the game tonight and I won't have time tomorrow, plus I honestly don't think it'd even help me so I'm completely sheeping umlaut and praying.

also "read" being the same in present and past tense when written but not when spoken is an orthographic disaster

[Keychain]

Keychain sounds a little awkward to me in recent pages but I read that as being town due to not having played in a long while.

Surely if I was awkward at the start of the game from being rusty that would be true regardless of alignment?

More recent awkwardness however is probably AI because I suspect it's coming from the fact I've just rediscovered how much it sucks to get information revealed and find out you're wrong

[Keychain]

Oh yeah I saw this earlier and thought it was weird but forgot to respond until now:

It isn't me, if I were scum I wouldn't have bothered trying to get myself into the coalition, I would have boosted my partner

you were trying to get yourself into the coalition? when? It didn't appear to me that you cared but this post suggests you were paying pretty close attention, and especially gives the impression you were doing exactly what you say you weren't, in trying to get yourself in there.

[Keychain]

Do you think nsg's absence is AI?

Maybe!

I'm going to look through the coalition because I did think basically everyone there was town. My skepticism is mostly on you and nsg, though, so when I find the time I'll look through your ISOs first.

given a) the deadline b) one empty slot and c) a split vote, you should focus on deciding between me and north unless you really think you can get a wagon going elsewhere in a matter of hours with multiple players absent

If you and eira don't vote in the same place and we don't get a replacement who can make their mind up really quick, other votes are going to need to start moving to get a majority by my count

[Keychain]

Damn Bingle is disappointed in us

I’ll be here to compromise on key in ~2 hours if we can’t get an nsg lim.

I'm going out shortly and might not be able to check in over the next few hours so will leave this for you/dunn/north just in case I'm eliminated while I'm gone

Spoiler: only open once keychain is dead, I'm trusting you!

thanks for accepting my out-of-the-blue invitation to join, this is/was a fun game and good way to get back into mafia! I might even play another after this, who knows

[Keychain]

VOTE: Umlaut

If you think I'm town and don't want me eliminated, your only course of action to avoid that is to vote north here, given what bingle and umlaut have said about compromising with me to avoid no-elim. if you want umlaut eliminated, you can say that but please save your vote until d2 and vote between the only two viable options today please.

I'm going to look through the coalition because I did think basically everyone there was town. My skepticism is mostly on you and nsg, though, so when I find the time I'll look through your ISOs first.

quoting this again so you hopefully get notified - again, if I'm only a tinfoil read and you'd rather eliminate north, then you need to be voting her before bingle and umlaut change their votes. there is no more time to read ISOs so go with your gut I guess. With an empty slot we can't afford for you to just not decide

[Keychain]

VOTE: Keychain

VOTE: Keychain

this was predictable as hell and fuckin sucks because I don't know which one of you is the mafia here which is going to significantly weaken my defense Leaning heavily to Um, with a dodgy af transition through the game to being so convinced N_M was town he completely removed miltank as an option for scum in 667 which made it easy for him to get north eliminated and... yeah all the stuff I already said in 677 VOTE: Umlaut

In other news, know what also significantly weakens my defense? killing Bingle! That would have been a weird move from me as scum setting up for a 1v1/2v1 when I could have taken out one of the several players I suspect will be pushing my wagon today.

If I die, patch is scum.

noted because sheep the dead, but we still really need to elim within the coalition today so it will have to wait.

[Keychain]

PenguinPower replaces KawaiiKame.

welcome Penguin! I don't remember how to do images but pretend I posted a little blue penguin.

[Keychain]

@N_M: who drove the nsg elimination?? I wasn't scumreading her and didn't want to eliminate her - you can look through my iso to see I was only on there because Umlaut asked, and from there was purely trying to save my own neck because I know my alignment and didn't know hers.

do you think the wagon was totally town driven then? Look at it - Bingle flipped green, he also already pointed out why me/patch don't make sense as a pair so if it's patch then I'm not scum, Dunn was clearly trying to get me eliminated and switched last second to make sure of a hammer so wasn't driving it. That leaves Umlaut who took the opportunity of Bingle's incorrect push and knowing I'd need to vote with him to avoid getting eliminated myself.

Seriously need you to think about how that wagon formed

[Keychain]

PenguinPower replaces KawaiiKame.

welcome Penguin! I don't remember how to do images but pretend I posted a little blue penguin.

Spoiler: figured it out but it's gigantic

[Keychain]

V/LA until Wednesday, just broke my ankle and hope I'll at least be managing my life by then

[Keychain]

Happy birthday, Keychain! Hope the broken ankle doesn't ruin it for you :/

Lol thanks, it kind of did unfortunately, discovered it needed surgery and got unexpectedly admitted to hospital just in time for the jr doctor strike, definitely one of the most eventful birthdays I've had

will decide tomorrow when my v/la ends if I can continue playing this game as a nice distraction from everything or if I don't have the headspace!

[Keychain]

welcome Penguin! I don't remember how to do images but pretend I posted a little blue penguin.

not the worst penguin, but not the best either

there's just no winning with you huh

[Keychain]

I'm so sorry everyone, I can't continue this game.

[Keychain]

Congrats umlaut and penguin - 10/10, would simultaneously tunnel and be pocketed by scum on D1 again

sorry yall

no apologising! thank you for replacing in and doing your best! You got umlaut and were doing awesome on picking up the second scum until paranoia on N_M got to you. Your iso is like wow

[Keychain]

Also thanks for running lilith <3