Micro 36 - Game Over.

[gorckat]

vote: ser arthur dayne

[gorckat]

Hi, every one.

I think I know no one of you... So...

Original Roll String: 1d8 (STATIC)

1 8-Sided Dice: (7) = 7

Scum or town in this game?

[gorckat]

I have. Yet to see you do it as town.

unvote
vote: Shadow Dancer

[gorckat]

Given shadow's lack of comment on never (in my search) dice voting as town, I think we snagged a live one.

[gorckat]

Given shadow's lack of comment on never (in my search) dice voting as town, I think we snagged a live one.

I can only suggest, again, that you get your facts straight first. If you are really to lazy/short on time/incapable/stupid to a proper meta, I have listed all my games (well, most recent ones still need to be updated, I guess...) in my wiki.

Town with no dice
http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 5#p3504995
http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 5#p3483975
http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 4#p3498344
http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 5#p3391155
http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 1#p2514851
http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 4#p2594684

Scum with dice
http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 7#p3559287 (I think this is the game I had asked about and the wiki says scum)
http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 8#p2286768 (old, and I did skip a series of town games to get here, but you have precious few as scum)
(+1 scum no dice)

I got as far as Newbie 990, I think. I don't see you 'regularly' posting with dice on game start, and never as town so far.

[gorckat]

Have you really been inactive for four years?

Nope. Closer to 2. Wiki's a time sink.

When I asked about the dicing the first time, I had been looking at your most recent games straight out of a search. Nothing dice-town there and the one I asked about appeared to have been a crash victim.

Figures I let my wife hassling me to come to bed stop me right before I get to the old town games of you dice voting.

I don't see a dice vote as either a non or a town tell. You haven't started as scum in ages- it appeared that you've replaced in as scum several times. Every time you start as scum you dice, you haven't diced as town in forever (17 games in wiki + recent non-wiki games).

Your concern about Piggy's "10 for all" looks like a reach- why play a UPick if you might not like other people's choices?


Hyperion's vote on Piggy for answering a question with a question is hollow because she actually answered the question. Sure, Piggy's idea is bad, but Hype's vote for it is worse.

unvote
vote Hyperion

[gorckat]

Anyway, you being inactive for two years probably means you are honestly ignorant about the fact, that there hasn't been a dice tag available since the site remake in 2010 until very recently...

Really? We get dice tags but not always show post 0? Blech. Good to know, anyway. Pretty much negates the reason for asking. Some people truly did it for randomness, but it removes any inkling of responsibility for a vote, RVS or otherwise. That's what I would have argued is anti-town, possibly scummy.

So I tick like:

5,7,10.

[gorckat]

Yeah- the dice/no-dice debate used to get pretty tired...figured that was why I hadn't been seeing dice votes.

Yes to the order.

[gorckat]

unvote
vote: njoseph

[gorckat]

So far this game has been a fantastic lurk fest and there's been a lot of setup type spec. It's still mafia.

And as for voting you, nj- you called out rapid to give his choices when Toon also hadn't posted. Struck me as unnecessarily exclusionary.

[gorckat]

So he was.

unvote
vote: Hyperion

[gorckat]

Hyperion and notch as a scumteam. Boom. Town wins.

[gorckat]

Still no leads.

Other than Hyperion but I don't like that boat.

because reasons?

Sure. You first statement implies no strong town or scum reads. (If strong town, then someone is scum by inference).

Your second statement contradicts the first by A) saying Hyperion is a possible scum read and B) saying you don't like his wagon (suggesting scum reads on the wagon).

You pack a lot of cognitive dissonance into two sentences.

[gorckat]

Why do you think "defensiveness" is a scum tell?

Just making a reminder for a thought I had.

[gorckat]

unvote

Assumes Hyperion is sensible. Tell us what you've read of him.

[gorckat]

Gorckat is a hypocrite for voting Hyperion imo because he's basically doing the same thing hyperion did.

Which is what, exactly? Why was I voting Hyperion?

[gorckat]

@Shadow: The Titan.
And Piggy's idea that only town are posting is rather bad, and I dont like that she answered a question with another question.

UNVOTE:
VOTE: PIggy
BTW, Arthur gets slight townread. meta.

Hype voted Piggy for a bad idea and saying she answered a question with a question. The latter reason is flat false (post 31) and why I voted.

[gorckat]

notch- what changed in your assessment of Piggy between 100 and 108?

[gorckat]

unvote

Assumes Hyperion is sensible. Tell us what you've read of him.

Piggy...care to share how hype has acted in the games he was in?

[gorckat]

Vote: notch

[gorckat]

I assume so, given Nik is using 'votes in play' and not 'alive'.

Ser Arthur should toss a vote on the person he tried to JK, for science, and switch back if it wasn't njoseph.

[gorckat]

nj and notch aren't scumbuds unless we are dealing with a 3-man team and nj willing to bus for cred Day 1.

I dislike notch for both post reasons (his 88 didn't really debunk my cog-diss assessment, just rephrased it) and others (unless someone can tell me how he is alive today).

nj spent too much time focused on the Upick #s. And Mr Crabs is a dick, so that is also working against him.

But I like a notch wagon MUCH more.

[gorckat]

Huh. Rainbows.

Keep posting as a leprechaun, then. I'll deal.

[gorckat]

125 is a vote count, 126 Piggy puts Toon at L-1 and 128 notch says he wants to see hype and rapid defend themselves.

Piggy said she's just sheeping this line bothers me:

Obviously there won't be four scum, but if I assume there's two scum, we have a fifty/fifty chance of hitting one.

Especially in light of this Agent A/C apparent scumchat.

In a nine person game, I think the default assumption is that there's only 2 scum and no way would someone not part of a 3-man team inflate it to a potential 4 people.

I also didn't like something about Piggy's comment about having read games of everyone and something about her observation of Hype this game, but that got lost in the Toon hammer. I never had a drafted post to think on.

If notch wanted to see the others defend themselves first, he could have unvoted, but he didn't.

[gorckat]

rapidcanyon, you need to post more!

Coming from the guy who has what, 5 posts?

Fixed quotes. ~Nik

I was V/LA for some days, now I'm posting more. Also, rc IS lurking, and that has nothing to do with you being scum. Why are you defending him?

Unfortunately, 99 was Toon's last post, but it reads on its face like a slip calling Hype scum.

I did see a 'accidental' hammer of a partner on Day 1 in Battousai's mini 1360, so I wouldn't be blown away if Hype did hammer Toon by mistake if they were buds.

[gorckat]

@SAD: vote no-lynch if you JK'd notch specifically

[gorckat]

My ability involved tying you to any actions targeting SAD.

If SAD was killed, you would be killed as well (or protected, JK'd, tracked, watched, etc).

I anticipated SAD being the target of a Mafia kill, so I tossed you at him because I suspected you might be the person actually making the kill.

Thus, my interest in why you are still alive.

[gorckat]

Obviously the mafia killed someone, so I would implore some people to read garckat and see what they think about a scum connection with him.

I'm gonna call some waffles here. You want SOME people to see what THEY think...and your thoughts are...

The mafia used two abilities though, one kill action and a passive action, so I think it's possible the mafia could've been the cause of both kill actions, but unlikely.

In any case I would say that there's a town member with a kill action who's either bold or stupid. Assuming garckat is a mafia and used his kill action on either me or SAD:

vote: garckat

So based on my prior statements (not the power usage description, obv), you are considering that either mafia somehow got 2-kill actions including mine that failed and I'm making a substantive, not terribly subtle fuss about it rather than shutting my mouth and trying to work it out tonight

OR

That a townie killed SAD and I am scum and won't shut up about my kill not going through.

Assuming garckat is a townie/non-mafia with a kill action I keep my vote, because it is NOT town mindset to attack someone with little to no evidence on them.

And even if I'm a townie who tried to kill you, I should still die.

[gorckat]

I'm going to take a gander at speculating Arthur's role... So the "Double Day Dipper" makes me think that he had a double vote (found specifically in the Double Day Open Setup)

There are exactly zero doublevoters listed in that setup on the wiki.

[gorckat]

I'm going to take a gander at speculating Arthur's role... So the "Double Day Dipper" makes me think that he had a double vote (found specifically in the Double Day Open Setup)

There are exactly zero doublevoters listed in that setup on the wiki.

Yes, and on re-reading, nothing targeting notch should have suceeded, so his ass should be dead, period.

[gorckat]

Just to be sure I got this right, gorc, you redirected everything that was supposed to happen to Arthur onto notch, yet only Arthur died?

This should have been the quote I just replied to.

Not keen on massclaim yet.

[gorckat]

I think chasing all these questions is a little bit futile. It's pulling away from going after scum still alive.

SAD didn't vote the option (notch) indicating he had other relevant information. We're better served hunting scum (notch, lulz) and helping SAD make a good vote.

We also have to be a aware that if all dead people can vote, Toon could drop a quick hammer on a townie.

[gorckat]

@Hype:

125 is a vote count, 126 Piggy puts Toon at L-1 and 128 notch says he wants to see hype and rapid defend themselves.

Piggy said she's just sheeping this line bothers me:

Obviously there won't be four scum, but if I assume there's two scum, we have a fifty/fifty chance of hitting one.

Especially in light of this Agent A/C apparent scumchat.

In a nine person game, I think the default assumption is that there's only 2 scum and no way would someone not part of a 3-man team inflate it to a potential 4 people.

My issue with it is she's coming from a point of having to assume there's only 2 scum, not assume there's 3, the latter of which is more natural, imho.

My ability involved tying you to any actions targeting SAD.

If SAD was killed, you would be killed as well (or protected, JK'd, tracked, watched, etc).

I anticipated SAD being the target of a Mafia kill, so I tossed you at him because I suspected you might be the person actually making the kill.

Thus, my interest in why you are still alive.

So let me get this straight,
Hypothetical:
Bob is a doc, and he docs SAD, that means Notch is docced too? Does your ability have any restrictions (ex. it doesn't work on XXXXX abilities)?

Correct to the former. Would rather keep the latter to myself for now, if only to keep scum guessing a little.

[gorckat]

rapid is doing a fair bit of parroting right now and his 166 voting njoseph appears to have been made without even reading Day 2.

[gorckat]

If his after-death vote is in deed part of his role and if he were in deed a double voter, then that would mean that toon hasn't got a death vote and notch would be a confirmed lier scum.

Toon is voting me.

1) The dead voting could have been triggered of SAD's own role and notch is claiming it now to save his skin
2) notch's near death is in fact the source of dead votes but he is still scum
3) notch is town and has been truthful

[gorckat]

Not sure. Kinda waiting for the next vote count or two.

Been scanning everyone else looking for other leads, mixing and matching ISOs with and without Toon.

I like your analysis of Hype's hammer in 207. (Recently replaced into a game with an accidental scum hammer Day 1, so wouldn't blow my mind if Hype did it here.)

Piggy swings back and forth for me.

rapid gives me some heebies for a lot of paraphrasing what others have said. I get an impression of him repeating questions and presenting them as original.

Leaning toward notch as scum or even a 1x BP SK.

[gorckat]

Mixed up latter/former. Assuming 2 is more natural.

The way I had read your 126 was that you had been assuming there's 3 scum and for purposes of placing your Toon vote would assume there were 2.

Earlier today I had seen you mention a 2/7 split, which eased some of my iffy-ness about you. 2/3/4 scum isn't really on my mind anymore, but I wasn't gonna give you that unless it was addressed in case you answered really badly and gave me more to go after.

Wiping that because something struck me as off in your explanation.

[gorckat]

And fwiw, not wrong as in ZOMG scumz, but wrong as in somewhere in null-ville.

Every time I'm ready to let it go, something twings in my physical gut and makes me feel like I shouldn't.

[gorckat]

unvote

rapid's vote is scummy as shit- he jumped after Piggy suggested notch make a full claim and confirming rapid was voting for realsies.

Not voting rapid yet to avoid any Toon hammer shenanigans.

I could still see notch as an SK.

[gorckat]

This much quoting without editing it down is a little out of character for me, but I'm trying to pin down gut feeling sof wrongness.

Something isn't right here:

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Toon Fighter

No reason, just sheeping.

Really there's only three people (four if I include myself, but that's obvious) who I don't want lynched today: nj, SD, and gorc. Obviously there won't be four scum, but if I assume there's two scum, we have a fifty/fifty chance of hitting one.

Does not want to lynch:
Shadow
njoseph
gorckat
Piggy

Leaves:
Hyperion
rapidcanyon (called him conftown #13) (null in #94)
notch
Ser Arthur (town) (town read in #94)
Toon (scum)

Well, that got rid of one null read :/
By PoE, I'd say that notch is probably going to turn up scum. I'll do some ISO's later.

Which null read?

125 is a vote count, 126 Piggy puts Toon at L-1 and 128 notch says he wants to see hype and rapid defend themselves.

Piggy said she's just sheeping this line bothers me:

Obviously there won't be four scum, but if I assume there's two scum, we have a fifty/fifty chance of hitting one.

Especially in light of this Agent A/C apparent scumchat.

In a nine person game, I think the default assumption is that there's only 2 scum and no way would someone not part of a 3-man team inflate it to a potential 4 people.

My issue with it is she's coming from a point of having to assume there's only 2 scum, not assume there's 3, the latter of which is more natural, imho.

I'm not quite sure if you think I'm scummy for this or town or just null or...?
There's 9 people, 4 of which I thought were town, that leave 5 left. 1 of which was Toon, so since he was who I was voting for, I wasn't putting him into my hypothetical "who else is going to turn up scum" theories. It was obvious we were lynching him, whether he turned up town or scum there would still be only 4 people left who I was suspicious of. That's why I say "Obviously there won't be four scum" because this isn't a large game, and at that point we hadn't been given the A/C scum chat. Why would I assume there's 3 scum? 2/7 is balanced, 3/10 is balanced, anything in between is iffy, but we have 9 people, perfect for the 2/7 balance. Now with all these PRs I realize without any vanilla townies we have 3/6 balance to compensate for the power in town. So why exactly would assuming there's 3 scum be more natural?

"It was obvious we were lynching him, whether he turned up town or scum there would still be only 4 people left who I was suspicious of."

That isn't matching earlier reads.

I still am torn between Hype and notch as our lynch for today. They're both my top scum reads, but I can't decide which one is stronger...
VOTE: notch as it seems more people are willing to lynch him today.

More sheeping the likely wagon.

However, you have persuaded me, I'm leaning more heavily towards Hype being scum, rapid is eeeeehhhhhhhhhh... well, let's see...
VOTE: RapidCanyon

Baaaah.

The one constant here is Hype and he is not touched at all with a higher threat to actual lynch today.


The variance between the actual situation in 126 and 219's explanation of it don't look right. The prior reads of people in Piggy's lynch pile don't line up with her leaving a couple out of the "not lynching" pile.

If SAD did belong in her not lynching pile, then the 50/50 makes a little more sense...but the omission of the number three is still bothering me (as is the casual acceptance of 50/50 odds let's hang anyone). She flatly dismissed 4 scum, but doesn't consider the existence of 3? That would give a 3/4 shot of getting one.

147's "Well, that got rid of one null read" is additionally bothersome. If we consider (as above) that SAD was actually a town read, then she was willing to ride lynch of a null over a scum read just cause 50/50.


(Been sitting in the office this morning and some police action the last hour or so destroyed my train of thought so I'm posting before I go home.)

[gorckat]

Vote: piggygal15

That answer doesn't resolve any of my concerns and gives me more.

You clearly called SAD a town read in 94 (nowhere near a null read). Hard to confirm on my phone but I think he was vla from 94 to 126. What could have flipped him to null?

[gorckat]

Ignore the whole 2 v 3 v 4 scum thing. That's just something I that twinged me for the wrong reasons.

What is substantive with Piggy is that her reads and explanations of things aren't lining up (94, 126, the null, etc).

[gorckat]

Remember, there's no example PM, that means he has to be telling the truth about his role.

This is a ridiculous leap of not-logic.

Piggy clearly did some sort governing/lynchproofing. Not sure if that makes sense as a scum power on par with town having dead votes or vice versa.

@gockat: Damn it, if all you want to do is throw out post numbers, there's even a tag for that purpose, please use it.

They were all linked in the prior post I made.


Not sure what I think of the last couple pages. I was happier before things went this screwy. I'm not 100% sold on the super cop claim, but I don't see the governing and cop claim coming from two scum as some butty gambit/setup plan.

unvote

[gorckat]

I could throw someone at your, making them untargetable, and having whatever happens to your target happen to them.

This tests your claim (as far as people will trust me) by either confirming or denying your 2nd result.

[gorckat]

*throw someone at your target

[gorckat]

What sort of info did you get that makes you think rapid is not scum? Was this already gone over? I see the initial claim.

[gorckat]

The initial plan was to have Hyper state his target so I could send a second (not publicy named) person towards that target. Either he names that other person correctly or he doesn't. This does rely on others trusting me to be truthful.

Problem is, if I'm dead, I can't confirm that second role and town won't know if it was Hyper-scum killing me. I can't tell him to target me and fling an unnamed person at myself to get the protection.

It would confirm alignment by determining his truthiness.

[gorckat]

If a vig shot at Arthur then they should claim now so we can ridicule them for shooting the towniest looking player at the end of Day 1.

[gorckat]

Why are we not lynching notch, again? His early day 2 was really weak

[gorckat]

This from 177:

In any case I would say that there's a town member with a kill action who's either bold or stupid. Assuming garckat is a mafia and used his kill action on either me or SAD:

vote: garckat

Assuming garckat is a townie/non-mafia with a kill action I keep my vote, because it is NOT town mindset to attack someone with little to no evidence on them.

And this flip-flop of 'dead votes only help town' to 'dead votes don't only help town but its a town role':

About the me not being dead part, it's part of my role. The first time I "die" my passive is instead activated, allowing dead players the ability to vote. This role would only really benefit the town I believe.

The ghostly vote-granter mechanic (dead players can vote) doesn't only benefit town, but it would counter-intuitive to assign it to a mafia character. It benefits the town more and actually hinders the mafia, just saying.

From 234 a 'no true scotsman' argument:

*sigh* No, what I meant was that he couldn't be a town with a killing role because any real town with a killing role wouldn't do that, hopefully.

rapid made himself look pretty bad soon after, followed by the Hype wagon.

I'm inclined to follow my gut- there was a reason I tossed you at the towniest looking person...it's that my Night 1 re-read had you looking scummy and I hoped that if you killed SAD, you'd die, too.

vote: notch

[gorckat]

I forgot about Hype's neighbor power claim. I was thinking he'd have to name someone without other confirmation.

[gorckat]

Shadow- at one point you were set between Hyp and notch.

Since Hyp went off the table, you have been punting a no-lynch.

Why not lynch notch?

[gorckat]

I hate the idea of letting scum have their way with the next two kills (no lynch, kill/mylo, no lynch, kill).

Even if we're wrong, we should be in control of who dies, not scum.

[gorckat]

Hurricane coming, might not have much time.

Hyp- who did you target?

What does no result mean? What results should you be getting?

[gorckat]

At this point I couldn't care less about this scumchat we're getting from nj.

Pending Hyp, SD and myself (if helpful) elucidating our night actions, I'm fine with everyone weighing in on him dropping the PR and playing like normal.

[gorckat]

Can you say that somewhat more clearly?

[gorckat]

My passive ability is called "In the Void" - basically bulletproof. If I don't use my active ability, I can use this instead and cannot be killed that night. I chose to use this ability last night.

"basically" or something else?

[gorckat]

Something is fishy with rapid's claim.

Interesting to note that after Ser Arthur Dayne makes a case against Toon, Hyperion attacks toon but doesn't vote him yet.

The next votes on TF are from notch (the second vote) and me (third vote). This makes TF lynch look like a real possibility. njoseph doesn't vote TF yet but Piggygal does. Hyperion then hammers.

If I have to pick two people who could potentially be TF's scum partner, it would have to be Hyperion or njoseph.

I am going to go with nj.

VOTE: njoseph

At this point, he should know Hype visited Piggy and she didn't die, but still lists him as a top suspect. My second kill expectation of notch had not yet occurred.

Okay, so Piggy made Hyp unlynchable for today = misguided town who saved a scum. SD confirmed me. Hype fake-confirmed? Piggy. I still think Hype is scum but we obviously have to wait for the next day to do it. Right now, notch is our best shot.

UNVOTE:
VOTE: Notch

But he should know Hype visited Piggy and is pushing a fake confirmed angle.

Sorry, I haven't been paying attention to this game, it is a bit hard to follow.

I am an Astronaut - that is my role name.

My active ability is called "Geosynchronous Satellite." It allows me to track a player. I tracked Hyp for his scummy hammer and found out that he visited Piggygal.

My passive ability is called "In the Void" - basically bulletproof. If I don't use my active ability, I can use this instead and cannot be killed that night. I chose to use this ability last night.

Also, even if we have a three person scum team, I don't see more than one town being bulletproof, even with one being a one-shot, and a third person (me) having the ability to make someone untargetable.

I tossed Hype at Piggy.

Her temp-doc type talk made her the most likely target, imho, and I figured if Hype was scum, he would die with her. Up until this rapid claim, I was going back and forth on him fake-claiming. Now, I think it was likely a legit claim.

Not buying that rapid was the target last night. I think it was Hype.

[gorckat]

Still needing SD to elaborate on why he thought rapid was town Night 1 and nj to clear up his mouthful of nonsense.

[gorckat]

Good point. If you were blocked, so was Hype. So if Hype is scum and was gonna kill and another blocked you then that is why no one died, which would mean I wasn't the NK target.

[gorckat]

Which puts me back into a 'meh' place.

At this point, outside of a very strong suspicion of RC, I'd buy any one with a decent case against them.

[gorckat]

Well, I infact be havin' anot'er post restricshun: If I be not votin' by a person by t' end o' a day, I lose th' ability t' be votin' fore'er.
I be pressured t' vote fer someone e'en if my head be not in this game, hence the bandwagonin' of the lynch d'jour votin' that I do
I can't be figurin' out how to view th' RC and Hyperion situeati'n right now, but I be inklin' that the better lynch be RC. Going t' consider more ot'er time...

You have to vote someone or lose the ability to vote, so you just sheep the leading wagons?

[gorckat]

That wasn't my point.

You are implying that you have no or minimal thoughts on the wagons you are voting, which is irresponsible.

If you don't have a strong feeling on the leading wagon but need to be voting at the end of the day, you can park your vote on a suspect. Switching to avoid no lynch could be done closer to deadline.

[gorckat]

Are you throwing the fucking game?

[gorckat]

vote: rapidcanyon

An appeal to emotion is the best shot of a busted scum claim to get out if it. Not letting it slide.

And if you're town, you're a douchebag.

[gorckat]

Before mentioned he was only aware of him and rapid in the Dead QT, I was considering SD as a fairly solid lead for chunks of time spend number crunching (Upick scores day 1 and binary code day 2)) which looked like busy work.

Hopefully I would have looked at nj for doing very little.

Good game guys

[gorckat]

That should say "Before Toon mentioned".

[gorckat]

But why did you think, I was the last scum?

When I did a quick iso after dying, I saw a lot of posts focused on the numbers Day 1, some lurker prodding and a lot of time spent making code Day 2.

Those seemed like things that scum could do to keep busy. I didn't have time to chase down the wrongness of nj's vote-logic and had only started looking where someone (Piggy, perhaps?) had pointed about how little he had done.