/Invitational 13: The battle of Yarmouk. Decisive victory!

[Rhinox]

Traveling all day back home from vaca today so i'm putting off doing anything til i get back. Just wanted to say i'm here.

[Rhinox]

real post time.

first impressions:

-no reason to believe DRK is scum. If anything, she is only guilty of the same thing I usually get in trouble for early in games regardless of alignment, and that is just trying too hard.

-having played with katsuki before, early read is town there.

-town reads on fishy and KK. Fishy for #43 (doesn't seem like something scum would say) and for early pressuring of DRK^ (seemed like a good way to get the game out of RVS quickly). KK for... gut really, stemming from his interaction with fishy. Not solid.

-Top 2 early scum reads are mith and kittymo. mith because of DRK discussion^ and semantics of meanings of votes. kittymo for gut based on #53, the "please don't hammer until..." comment, as well as the non-committal comments regarding fishy not liking being accused of distancing.

-nothing either way on panzer or chamber yet. Of the 2, panzer is more suspect, but I don't see any huge red flags or anything that would make me think anyone should be considering hammering so soon.

vote: mith

^I'm trying to be concise but should probably try to explain this better. While fishy and mith both expressed suspicion of DRK for similar reasons, fishy was early and consistent, explained his suspicians well, asked good questions, and then moved on when he was satisfied. mith on the other hand first just sheeped fishy, and didn't question DRK/focused more on others (ie the FOS on chamber). Its odd that DRK was mith's first vote, and that he jumped straight into asking others' opinions on DRK without really providing an opinion of his own (post #18). And then #34/#45 seemed to shift the discussion into unhelpful theory/semantics.

[Rhinox]

What's he like early on as scum?

(I'm quite curious as to why I'm town though).

I'd rather not say until I have a chance to become more confident in my meta read. If I say now, my meta on katsuki won't be valid the rest of the game.

[Rhinox]

Rhinox: After my vote, DRK did not make another post to comment on until the page 2 post.

It was more that you started asking others to provide an opinion on DRK before you actually provided an opinion of your own other than sheeping fishy.

(As for theory/semantics - you have played a game with me before, right? It's kinda my thing.)

Yes I have played with you before but I don't remember making that connection.

Why did you decide to unvote DRK?

[Rhinox]

I'm trying to be concise

If this is abnormal for you, is there a reason for it this game?

I'm usually (or used to be) slightly below mastin posting. Its always been a goal of mine to be more concise once I realized people stopped reading my posts.

No

way

is scumChamber pulling this off. No scumbag says "the scum clearly have daytalk" - they're

never

confident enough that they know what town would think.

I don't really see that as a town tell at all.

[Rhinox]

Rhniox: My opinion was that Fishy's case was "awesome" and warranted a vote. I'm not sure what expectations you have beyond that, but I'm sorry to disappoint. As for "asking others to provide an opinion", I was asking Kitty Mo for her opinion because she was the subject of the original DRK vote, and I was surprised that she didn't post more on the subject than "You jerk. <3".

I was satisfied with the responses DRK gave page 2, and chamber's lack of actual response to my earlier question has been eating at me.

ok

[Rhinox]

Then I guess I just don't understand what you think is harmful about it. Are people going to start playing differently because that question was asked publicly?

Yes.

So where you going with this chamber? is DRK scummy for asking about daytalk or were you just spending half a page instructing DRK on how to properly scumhunt?

[Rhinox]

It started as the former but ended as the later.

What caused the switch?

@Rhinox: huh. As scum, I'm always terrified my extra information is shining through, so when I speculate about something the scum know and I don't have to it's a pretty massive towntell. Do you not find the same thing?

Not really. In my experience, scum are pretty good at faking town slips like not being aware of daytalk. Last time I was scum it was actually a primary goal of mine to try to fake towntells or do something to make town say "scum would never do that." Very rarely do scum actually slip inside information. I've seen more town players lynched for scumslips than actual scum. As for me specifically, no I'm not usually worried about my inside information being transparent when I'm scum. The rest of my scum play is transparent enough

[Rhinox]

fishy's case makes sense. panzer wagon has my support.

[Rhinox]

oh right nightless.

Katsuki can you explain why you think this is so:

I would argue that getting to D2 quicker in a nightless would be far more beneficial than drawing D1 out all things considered

[Rhinox]

If anything, mith is slightly more likely town - because he went from 0 to L-1 while panzer's wagon stagnated, and if scummith were in danger you would think scum would be more likely to give the panzerwagon a little shove.

This point inspired me to go take a look at the vote counts myself. Key points I saw:

-Panzer wagon gets to L-1 before mith has a vote
-mith wagon then forms and both mith and panzer wagons sit at L-2 for a while
-mith gets to L-1 while panzer stays at L-2
-somewhat quickly, panzer gets lynched (fishy and katsuki votes switched from mith to panzer)

The reason I find all this interesting is that my interpretation differs from fishy's. While Panzerwagon did stall, mithwagon wasn't ever really full steam ahead. If mith is scum, scummith wasn't really in danger until he hit L-1 and people started talking about being comfortable with a hammer. At that point, there was, in fact, a little shove on the panzer wagon, leading to the panzer lynch.

Its interesting because if fishy is really as self-conscious about his scum knowledge being transparent, as he talked about earlier, then it would be pretty out of character for scumfishy to come out and make a post about lack of push on the panzer wagon if mith is scum - given that on closer examination, fishy actually fits the profile of the scum push on panzer to protect mithscum.

In case that wasn't clear, the conclusion I'm drawing is that I'm more confident in my town read on fishy, because I don't think fishyscum comes out and draws specific attention and analysis to a scenario that implicates himself the most.

--------------------------------------------

As for the votes so far, I feel fishy's vibes with respect to kitty, and I'm not feeling the Khan votes at all.

Given this is a 9p nightless game, I suspect we're probably dealing with 3 scum (so 5-3 right now). That means another mislynch today is lylo, and 2 mislynches is game over. It also means without bussing, all 5 townies would need to unanimously agree to lynch scum. Just pointing this out to explain why I'm planning on being a little more cautious with my vote today.

Also since this is nightless, I don't feel as worried about giving scum my townreads. So far, I'd rank everyone from town to scum as follows:

Fishy
---
Khan
Kats
---
DRK
Chamber
---
mith
kitty

In between the dashes are roughly equal suspicion, and everything under fishy isn't really that solid.

I don't really agree with fishy that mith is necessarily more likely town due to the panzer flip. Fishy's reasoning is ignoring that when panzer's wagon stalled and mith wagon formed, the other 2 scum might have already been voting panzer and thus no scum left to provide the little push back towards panzer. I'm looking at this votecount:

votecount

mith (3): Rhinox, Fishythefish, Katsuki
Panzerjager (3):

chamber

,

KittyMo

, DeathRowKitty
DeathRowKitty (1): Panzerjager
chamber (1):

mith

not voting (1): Kublai Khan

Colored in red are the bottom three names on my suspect list and would explain why there was no extra push by way of votes on the panzer wagon once the mith wagon formed. DRK as a bonus is #4 suspect. mith voting the panzer wouldn't have really counted as the scum push back on the panzer wagon. Immediately after that votecount I posted, chamber gets active and starts questioning panzer, and DRK speaks up about not liking the mith wagon and starts questioning panzer some more. That could be the extent of a scumshove on the panzer wagon that scum were able to muster.

I know its a lot of theoreticals to fall into place and I'm not necessarily naming a scum team here, but a case can be made for {mith + chamber + one of kitty or DRK}.

[Rhinox]

Not complaining (and also not scum), but your analysis only means I'm unlikely to be scum with mith, right?

Yes, I did conclude that I didn't think you were scum with mith.

Only thing that worries me about you is I think this post is now the second time you hit me with pandering/flattery, first example being here where you went from "no way is chamber scum" to "I'll downgrade my townread" just because I (and only me) didn't agree with you.

Why do you think KK is town?

Well the copout concise answer would be gut/POE.

I guess its really that I like the tone of KK's posting, he's asking good questions, providing good content, and he hasn't done anything to make me raise my eyebrows and go digging for things or looking for reasons to call him scum. He may be a bit under my radar.

I'm at least slightly biased against your theory knowing that I'm town, but I completely disagree with your analysis. I thought on this topic before anyone started talking about it, and if mith were scum and there were already a lot of scum on the panzer wagon I feel he would have voted for panzer when miths wagon got to l-1. It wouldn't have been unnatural for him to do so, he was basically pressuring me and panzer all day, but he chose to keep his vote on me. This tells me he wasn't actually worried about getting lynched. That means to me that if hes mafia its almost surely with KK, who was questioning him negatively while mith was at l-1, and yet mith still didn't seem worried about gettng lynched. It also suggests someone else on miths wagon would be his 2nd partner, allowing for the mobility to lynch panzer quickly if it were needed.

Well... I don't really think the lack of a reason preventing mith from changing his vote from you to panzer is the same thing as having a reason to change his vote. I think the latter case is the only case that makes mith not changing his vote significant. I also don't think being worried about being lynched is exclusively a scum trait, nor do I believe the lack of worry signals not scum. I know projecting myself into that position, if I were scum, and my 2 partners were on the counterwagon, and its still early in the game, I'd probably just try to play it cool and hope the wagon goes away on its own as early wagons seem to do. Personally, I'd be nervous to vote the counterwagon because it'd be an obvious self-preservation vote, which isn't necessarily a scum claim, but has a risk of devolving the day into an either or and shutting out all the other potential mislynches (not something I'd want early in the game as scum). I'm also personally very gunshy about placing my vote where a clump of my scum partners votes already are.

Also since this is nightless, I don't feel as worried about giving scum my townreads. So far, I'd rank everyone from town to scum as follows:
-snip-

How much of this list is based on individual scumminess and how much of it is dependent on a mith-centric scum team?

The list is entirely individual scumminess. Although that fact is obfuscated because I only started thinknig about who could be partners with mith in the same post I posted the list, so I apologize for that. If I were only focusing on a mith-centric scumteam right now, I'd be leaning a group of {mith+chamber+DRK} as my bottom 3, but individually I think you are least scummy of my 4 bottom and kitty is 1 or 2 most scummy, which is reflected in my list.

[Rhinox]

I'll get caught back up this evening.

[Rhinox]

vote kitty mo

I can't make anything out of mith/chamber, or KK/DRK just yet. I feel good about fishy and his vote lines up with my suspicions and I really should have a vote down now.

this isn't my "catch up", i owe the game more than this. Just trying to do something in the meantime. I was lazy with this game this weekend, and then I started a new position at work this week where I don't have constant computer access anymore so I haven't been online much at all really. Been kinda stressed by the change actually but I'll try to get and stay more active.

[Rhinox]

I'm waiting for those promising to catch-up to actually catch-up. I'll never convince DeathRowKitty that he's scum and I can't lynch him by myself.

I was kinda hoping DRK was going to get to the point regarding #191. I would be ok with a DRK lynch, just waiting to see if and how this affects any of my reads.

KK, how would you feel about a kittymo lynch today?

[Rhinox]

I was kinda hoping DRK was going to get to the point regarding #191.

This will not happen until KK either tries again or puts his fingers over his ears while yelling "I'm not listening".

Hasn't the latter already happened basically?

You're not really pressing the issue and I can't really see what point you might be trying to get it. What good are your threats to park a vote on KK if no one else can see what you're getting at? Right now you're a scum read of mine and KK is not so I'm more interested in hearing where you're coming from.

[Rhinox]

Spoiler:

Oh KK, you like seeing me angry, don't you? You like it rough, don't you?

This post. Oh that post. You wanted to write it off as me being unclear, didn't you? Well you know why I made a big deal out of it? I bet you do.

The issue is that it has nothing at all to do with me being unclear

. It has everything to do with you

selectively and blatantly responding to things I didn't actually say

. Let's look closer, shall we?

It doesn't seem implausible at all in my mind. Scum get night talk in normal games and mostly just discuss who they're killing. Do scum need communication to function during the day? Considering you're the second person to tell me (or heavily imply, in your case) that scum do get daytalk in nightless games, clearly I was wrong.

You've been here since 2009 and the only thing you've ever used night-talk is to discuss who to kill?

This isn't even to being a response to what I wrote. For one thing, it's practically responded to

within the post he's responding to

. "Scum get night talk in normal games and mostly just discuss who they're killing." There's two ways I would be willing to believe someone interpreted that:
1) Most scum teams just talk about who they're killing.
2) Most night talk of the average scum team is in reference to who they're killing.
Regardless of which way he read that, his question is completely irrelevant. Perhaps more importantly, he blatantly missed the point of my response. He was supposedly asking this to find out if it would make sense for me to believe scum wouldn't have any form of private communication. The important thing he should have taken away from my post if he actually cared about my response was the "Do scum need communication to function during the day?" that sums up the "mostly just discuss who they're killing" part of the post that he seemingly completely ignored. But that's okay because who needs to respond to the actual content of a post when following an

agenda

(more on the agenda thing later because it runs soooo deep).

What answer were you expecting out of that question that would have been useful?

I'm pursuing this line of questioning because in post 103 you suggest that I'm scum because I'm "coaching" Panzerjager. I'm observing that you're doing something that I call "spaghetti-ing". You're throwing all sorts of bullshit to the wall and looking for something to stick.

In this quote, KK tries his hardest to one-up himself in failing to read anything I write and amazingly manages to succeed. I don't think that requires a drawn-out explanation and I don't think one exists beyond

is it even possible to read my question and think that was a valid response to it?

I think it shows something better though:

he didn't care what my answer was

. I mean, I suppose he made that sufficiently clear in the previous thing I quoted, but if you didn't believe it there, oh how he drove home that point here. Remember that

agenda

thing? Yeah, is there any doubt at all that he was asking these questions to lead to a conclusion he knew he couldn't support if he actually had to care about responses?

Here's where I initially said that I found you scummy. Tell me why at that point in the game I would decide I "wanted to read [you] as guilty" and why I would include an offer to give reasoning if I didn't actually have a reason.

But you didn't have a reason. You had a gut feeling. You didn't try to follow up that gut feeling by asking me any questions, you just starting making misinterpretations to justify a desire to lynch. That is scummy behavior.

I think I would find this post funny if I weren't legitimately angry right now. "Why would I offer to give reasoning if I didn't have a reason?" "You didn't have a reason." Smooth. Not only does this one fail to respond to what I said, it also fails at reading the post I linked:

I'm not really liking KK. I'm going to be lazy and pin it down to gut for now, but I could identify a couple quotes/patterns that lead me to that read if anyone actually cares about it.

How did he get "you didn't have a reason" from "I could identify a couple quotes/patterns that lead me to that read"? Welcome to first grade reading comprehension; failures: Kublai Khan. Except he's not that stupid. He's not stupid enough to have actually failed at reading any of my post that badly.


The big theme here is: he asked me questions without caring what the answers were. Heck, they were practically loaded questions. "You've been here since 2009 and the only thing you've ever used night-talk is to discuss who to kill?" Why yes KK, I did stop beating my wife, how nice of you to notice. He wasn't asking me questions with the intention of gaining information; he was asking questions in order to ask follow-up questions that weren't even dependent on my answers in order to lead to the conclusion he started out with in mind. And he had the

nerve

to accuse me of this:

You didn't try to follow up that gut feeling by asking me any questions

Yes KK, you are clearly following up on your gut read on me by asking me questions and ignoring the answers.

And even better,

this pattern of asking questions and ignoring the answers is the exact same thing he did with mith earlier

. See this post for a summary of that line of questioning.



So why did I make this big a deal out of KK taking another shot at reading comprehension? Failing that badly at reading my post once is damn near impossible. Failing that badly at reading it twice, knowing that he did so the first time would leave no question that he was doing it intentionally. The fact that he refused to take a second try at it tells me he didn't want to read my post correctly and I don't doubt that he reread my post and just didn't say anything. But hey, let's not sell him short here. He didn't actually refuse to try again. He pretended my request didn't exist and just didn't post anything. Is there any reason for that other than to impede my line of posting? I'm supposedly his big scum read...why doesn't he want me to post? I for one love it when my scum reads post things. In fact, it would be nice if KK posted things more often or if he ever posted anything remotely useful, but now I'm making this personal, aren't I? Oh KK, you wanted me to look like a fool sitting around waiting for you to make an acknowledgement you were never going to make, didn't you? But please, don't respond to anything now. If you do, I'll be forced to play to your level and respond with "NEENER NEENER NEENER" in all caps. I figure that should be simple enough for you to understand.

I don't really like this post at all. I'll give KK first right of refusal to address the actual points before giving my opinion there. But aside from that, I really dislike all the use of the over the top rhetorical devices, rather than letting the points speak for themselves. It sounds like you're trying to make your case sound stronger or more damning than it really is. The whole post to me just seems more likely to come from scum trying to force a case than town actually having one.

[Rhinox]

I agree, but I've seen town do this.

So have I, but it was like, LLD, Fate, etc..

[Rhinox]

@chamber - what's your analysis on the lack of KittyMo hammering?

Wasn't directed at me but I was just thinking about this anyways. Right now if/when deadline hits (I actually think it passed about 12 hours ago?) kittymo would be the lynch even if there is no hammer. IMO, lack of a hammer means kittymo is either scum, or there are 2-3 scum in {Fishythefish, Rhinox, Kublai Kahn, mith} - The longer the kittymo wagon sits at l-1 without a hammer, the better odds that the wagon moves elsewhere before deadline. If kittymo is town, scum probably would have hammered by now to prevent the wagon possibly shifting to scum, except in the case where many scum are already on the wagon. Likewise, if kitty is scum, scum have incentive to stall and wait out the deadline, hope the wagon shifts to a townie. There have been pushes for lynches in other directions than kitty over the past 3 days, in varying degrees of subtlety. (my opinion is that the kitty is scum scenario is the correct one, FYI)

[Rhinox]

Fun fact: The mod apparently decided deadline didn't matter because this is a nightless game and only ended the day because I harassed him about it on AIM. It's not like anything important happens at deadline, right?

Something is off about this.

You weren't voting kitty. Why harass the mod to end the day on a deadline lynch when, if you wanted the day to end, you could have just hammered kitty?

---------------------------------------

I'm slightly more suspicious of katsuki due to kitty-scum. On D1, kats had no issue hammering panzer because the day was dragging on. But on D2, with kitty sitting at L-1, and the day dragging on to a deadline, kats just kinda twiddles thumbs from #256-#259.

---------------------------------------

Updated scum list for me from town to scum:

Fishy
-----
KK
-----
mith
kats
-----
DRK
Chamber

[Rhinox]

Responding to prod. Need to devote some time to this game but as of right now don't see me voting outside of chamber, DRK, or mith today.

[Rhinox]

So its interesting to me that there doesn't seem to be any real threat of me getting lynched.

what's interesting about it?

[Rhinox]

vote chamber

[Rhinox]

Now I'm voting you, so you can answer my question.

[Rhinox]

Also it's D3 already. Why no awesomeness yet?

There is no one to play off of, I've been trying. Look at the sweet question I dropped earlier this page?

You mean this one?

Everyone whos not voting for me should give a reason why.

Well turns out I couldn't name a reason why so...

[Rhinox]

You can pretty much divine why from this post can't you?

Responding to prod. Need to devote some time to this game but as of right now don't see me voting outside of chamber, DRK, or mith today.

[Rhinox]

Waiting to hear what the cupcake has to say, but right now if we're not lynching chamber my next choice would be DRK. I'm not really inclined to consider a kats lynch until I hear what the cupcake has to say (or doesn't say).

[Rhinox]

Happy Easter everyone

[Rhinox]

FYI...

votecount

*chamber (2): Kublai Kahn, Rhinox
Kublai Khan (2): deathrowkitty, chamber
katsuki (2): Fishythefish, mith

not voting (1): katsuki

*would be deadline lynch

FYI...

Due to the deadline falling on easter, which is hardly ideal, deadline is when I wake up on tuesday (which is around this time, 8 days from now).

Of the 3 I'm happiest with a chamber lynch. Kats would be choice #2 but I still don't really think kats is scum. KK lynch would be pretty silly. Its possible both votes on KK are scum votes.

[Rhinox]

which means there probably isn't time for this:

@chamber: why KK?

Majority lynch would be better than apathetic deadline lynch.

[Rhinox]

Of the 3 I'm happiest with a chamber lynch. Kats would be choice #2 but I still don't really think kats is scum. KK lynch would be pretty silly. Its possible both votes on KK are scum votes.

What do you make of Chamber not wanting to lynch me? (or at least I read the intent as he wouldn't vote me to save himself)

I don't make too much of it really. Its consistent with what little opinion he's given about you all game, but that's it.

[Rhinox]

Well I've thought kats was town because I seem to remember kats lurking more and just vote hopping as town, but trying harder to make cases as scum. Kats play this game has fit how I expected town-kats to play. If I'm wrong it wouldn't be the first time I've read kats incorrectly. First thing that had me doubting my read is when kats didn't vote kitty on D2. I know the chamber lynch was coming up on deadline anyways but now there are 2 examples of kats not hesitating to hammer town, as well as an example of kats not hammering scum, in 3 similar situations.

So I think I'm OK with a kats lynch.

[Rhinox]

Have you got links for that meta? Would be good to see if you think it's significant.

Not many links, and probably not recent enough to where I should have given it as much consideration as I did, but I'll dig them up for you.

There was Team Mafia Almost Normal, which had the added meta benefit that kats and I also shared a QT. Kats scum here.
I also looked at Purified Mafia - kats town
and
Mafia Behind the Maiden - kats town

Before kats became less active in this game, I thought his play resembled the town examples more than the scum example.

[Rhinox]

Rhinox, I'd like your thoughts on DRK's posting at the end of day 3.

What posting at the end of day 3? DRK didn't really post at all up to a week before deadline. Do you mean specifically the post after the hammer?

As for my thoughts on the lack of posting, well easter was in there, and the rest of us barely produced a page and a half of content during that time, so I don't know if DRK's absense says much if anything at all about her alignment. She spoke out against lynching chamber earlier, but then didn't do anything to prevent the lynch from happening. Thats about the worst offense I can find regarding DRK's posting leading up to the end of the day.

I would've been far more manipulative this game if I were scum.

You mean like, self-voting when it looks like people are going to lynch you?

[Rhinox]

Katsuki you haven't expressed a single town read this entire game. Is there anyone you feel is town?

[Rhinox]

Fishy, why do you feel DRK is town?

Because #397 is entirely too many wishy washy words regarding katsuki and is the type of post I used to get nailed on all the time when scum.

[Rhinox]

Firstly, my objection to your post has less to do with you not expressing a solid read on katsuki, but in the fact that you took 361 words to say "I'm not sure if katsuki's self vote is scummy it could go either way."


Secondly, first you say I'm wishy-washy then you say my posts have a distinct focus of "hey Katsuki, you're scum". So which is it, am I wishy-washy or do I have a distinct focus? Aside from that, the post you cherry picked out of context isn't wishy-washy at all. I explained why I felt kats was town in the past (because up until that point I had been intentionally vague about it), why I didn't feel that way any more, and ended with saying I'd be fine lynching kats. What's wishy washy about that? Adjusting a viewpoint isn't being wishy-washy.

I haven't voted kats because I wasn't done exploring all my options. And I think I'd rather lynch you than kats.

[Rhinox]

If not for the post you just made, I would not have known that you thought Katsuki was scum as of post #367. And that's despite you saying you would be okay with a Kats lynch in that very post. It was a wishy-washy post. Your posts since then haven't been wishy-washy.

Well chamber flipping town means I need to reevaluate some things, though I haven't done so with the same dilegence fishy and mith have regarding analyzing pairings. Fishy has made a pretty decent argument for mith-town, and I would add to that that you+mith seems less likely a pairing today do to interactions (though I haven't ruled out mith bussing), so I have to be open to other options. I don't think fishy is scum at all and you+KK would be a pretty poor likelihood for a pairing as well do to earlier interactions. That leaves kats. I had already started having kats-scum feelings myself, and fishy made a pretty compelling case on his own. Fishy also feels/felt you are town, and I have to take that into consideration. While I'm not just going to sheep fishy at the expense of my own reads, I don't see myself see myself supporting a wagon that he hasn't endorsed.

While fishy has come up with logical reasonings for most of his town reads, for the most part he's only ever said its been more of a feeling that you are town, which has been frustrating me a little and is why I want to hear more from fishy about what gives him that feeling.

so all that has culminated in the inner conflict I'm stuggling with today - you're my strongest scum read, but mith (also kinda a scumread of mine) wants you lynched, and fishy (my strongest townread) does/did not -vs- kats, initially a townread of mine that has through play become scummier, and is/was fishy's preferred lynch choice, as well as KK, another stronger town read of mine.

(Mith, maybe this post also addesses the concerns you raised in #402, in addition to the fact that I haven't actually voted kats yet, and in #401 said that I would prefer a DRK lynch to kats, before you even made the points in #402.)

So if I have been unclear, in my obviously biased opinion, it has been through omision rather than being wishy-washy, and I would have explained my positions more clearly earlier on had they ever been questioned.

For example, you didn't have anything at all to say about my position on kats until I accused you of being wishy-washy. If you didn't know where I stood on kats and thought I was being wishywashy, why didn't you question me or call me out before? The explanation I can rationalize is that you wouldn't question me if you are scum and it was looking like I was going to vote for town (or at least not you), but once I made an accusation against you, you lashed out and deflected.


As for...

Is 361 words too many to post on a topic without giving an opinion? I mean I get that my post wasn't particularly useful (though I would like to hope/believe that *something* can be taken out of the line of thought that went into it), but you're implying that you wouldn't have found that post scummy if I'd written fewer words on it. That just seems ridiculous to me.

I would say yes, I have found there is a positive correlation between the number of words used to say nothing, and the odds of the player being scum. The statement you parenthesized is pretty much the reason why, I suspect.

[Rhinox]

Rhinox: Re: parenthetical - Er, no, not really, it doesn't make me feel better that you started back after DRK (#399) only after my DRK vote and Fishy's unvote (#395).

Well frankly I don't really care if it makes you feel better I just noticed while I was addressing DRK that my thoughts might be relevant to your position.

Your position relies on the fact that I as scum would have motivation to protect DRK as my scum partner today, and based on fishy's comments about me, that just isn't the case, as it seems like if I'm scum I'm nearly guaranteed to make it to endgame and probably solo win so long as I just don't fuck up. So why not just bus DRK and further cement that?

Not to mention that I've been influenced by fishy and you taking a scum-pair approach to scumhunting lately, and it should be clear from my positions even if I haven't come out and said it before now, that kats really makes the most sense as a scum partner for DRK, while any other DRK-scumpartners require certain assumptions to be met (i.e. you if you're bussing today, KK if the earlier fighting between them was all for show, fishy if he's having an awesome scum game). Kats on the other hand could be scumpartners with you, KK, or DRK without any underlying assumptions in that way. You would have to be being intentionally obtuse to not see how me considering a kats lynch makes sense for me as town.

I also can pull the meta trump card, in that anybody who's seen me play as scum knows that I would have likely been lynched by now, as I'm just that horrible at being scum with scum partners. It'd be much better for my personally scum game to rid myself of scum partners as quickly as possible! (this last point is only meant to be taken half-seriously )

[Rhinox]

413 reads as phony, and seems like kats is completely pandering to me and mith. The whole post seems out of touch even - nobody here is going to be following a "guaranteed win" lynch chain that includes fishy. And the game isn't on easy mode if we just have 2 sure town and lynch from the other 4. There's 2 scum left in a nightless and tomorrow is lylo if we don't hit scum today. The only way kats' "easy mode" reasoning makes sense is if kats knows DRK is going to flip scum. Maybe I'm reading too much into it. My first reaction to 413 was that it sounded a lot like a scum who knows they're about to be lynched, last ditch distancing and appeals.


And what ever happened to KK? I'd like to hear something else from him before I hammer.

[Rhinox]

mith what are your current thoughts a kats? You did call him OMGUSy in 420. Are you OK with his lynch now? Do you think he's scum?

[Rhinox]

Answering prod. I'll answer your question later this evening fishy.

[Rhinox]

Sorry, taking longer than I expected

same here but I should have time today

[Rhinox]

gah I suck. Sorry I've been pretty much useless today.

Fishy voted KK. I'm still not sold on KK but I guess fishy's vote will make today pretty simple as far as vote options today.

I'm not going to be rushing any vote. I'm going to sleep on it. Assuming I don't wake up to a mith/DRK quickhammer - not likely since they've both posted already - I'll take a good look at KK and fishy and then try to determine who might be scum with KK (because I really don't see me voting fishy)

[Rhinox]

not hammering, so...

[Rhinox]

*sigh*

guess I shoulda been more assertive. Didn't argue strong enough for mith/DRK then let myself get talked out of it. Aside from chamber all my reads were spot on from day 1 until I started second guessing myself. I really hate that I'm so passive sometimes.

gg scum team for pulling this one out. I imagine at times it probably looked like there was no possible way you guys were going to be able to sway the town's viewpoints.

[Rhinox]

fishy one of the things I wanted to ask you about but didn't for some reason was with regards to your [url=http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.ph ... 6#p4892086]447[/url. I didn't quite follow your thought process there. It seemed like when I read that post that your conclusions were mith/kk as top likely pair, with mith/drk as less likely second option. You said you didn't think I was scum, and you weren't considering KK/drk liklihood. So I was scratching my head over why that wouldn't have led you to consider mith as the best lynch, considering he was scum in both your possible pairings.

I wanted to ask about it when I first read the post but I think I held off because I wanted to be able to answer your questions posed at me and not seem as deflecting and jumping straight into questioning your thought process.

I think this loss is especially disappointing because it seems like town should have won this game had we all just not lurked away in apathy at different times.

Having never really played a nightless before, another point I hadn't really considered that was starting to become a factor for me is that scum not being able to kill off the towniest players is a double edged sword, in that while scum can't kill off strong town voices, it was also making me paranoid about the strong town voices. I think the scum kill, while hurtful to the town's numbers, also gives information to individual townies reads (town read confirmation). Its like playing with half information. Scum reads get sorted out through lynches, but in a nightless game you don't get confirmation that your town reads are correct through night kills. That was starting to mess with me a little.

[Rhinox]

From the point of view of "things I was able to take advantage of as scum" ... (which unfortunately was too subtle and missed everyone ...

Well it didn't miss me that you were setting me up as DRK's scumpartner