Micro 181: Everyone's being watched (Game Over)
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Zionite Goon
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Zionite Goon
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Zionite Goon
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No.
BTW, how do I get the fancy white background on the vote? Is it a tag or just the format?-
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Zionite Goon
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Zionite Goon
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I don't. This is clearly an over justification of his vote when no one else really cares about justifying theirs. The questions he asks of Fuzzy are easy pitches and get us no closer to finding scum.
UNVOTE: Wisdom
VOTE: Horus-
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Zionite Goon
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Zionite Goon
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I'm just reading what you've given me; if you want to pretend this isn't flailing to justify your vote then go ahead. I'm not so easily fooled. I'm still waiting for you to address my original points laid out when I voted.-
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Zionite Goon
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How does the answer to these questions tell us whether Fuzzy is scum or not? Why are these questions only asked after Miss Destroyer accused you of being scum?In post 29, Horus wrote:fuzzybutternut: You had been posting during RVS without random-voting, then I voted for you for not voting and then yiu random-voted. Do you see value in RVS participation? If so, then why were you abstaining until I brought it up? If not, then why did you join in at my prompting?-
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Zionite Goon
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Zionite Goon
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Zionite Goon
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Any vote against me in the same post as the word "totes" is ignored.
But seriously, you're going to have to do better than that.-
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Zionite Goon
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Tell me what you think of Horus' behavior and I will.In post 49, Grimgroove wrote:
VOTE: WisdomIn post 36, Wisdom wrote:And what does this imply? That I am scum?
For overreacting.
@Zionite: I don't like your vote on me and would appreciate it if you remove it.-
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Zionite Goon
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The reason for my vote in the first place was to get content. I chose someone off the list who hadn't posted. I don't like the response so I'm leaving my vote until my read changes.-
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Zionite Goon
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I don't condone lynching someone simply because they're lurking. I'm the only one voting Grimgroove, so to act as if I'm trying to get an easy lynch is ridiculous. I haven't pushed a case for Grimgroove or tried to convince anyone, so how can you say I'm seeking a lynch? But I will use my vote for pressure whenever I choose; that's why it's there. I don't like Grimgroove's response to it so I'm leaving it there. I won't let you bully me out of it.-
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Zionite Goon
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Whether it helps the town or not remains to be seen unless you already know who the scum are. You can't know it's not helping unless you're scum.-
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Zionite Goon
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Zionite Goon
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I think the response I got was an overreaction and quite telling, but I won't know more until I hear more. I think more votes on Grimgroove would be a good thing.-
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Zionite Goon
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I see a great difference between voting someone and actively campaigning to lynch someone. Each has their purposes, but I'm content with just a vote on Grimgroove. If I see something worth assembling the mob for, I'll switch to campaign mode, otherwise I see fit to simply vote and watch. You can apply pressure without the campaign in my experience.-
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Zionite Goon
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I've had this argument before in a recent game. My findings were that it's fine to vote for pressure and call it what it is. It may not be as effective as campaigning, but it doesn't take that much effort either and stays away from being disingenuous. I play as honestly as I can because it's easier than "pretending" to try to lynch someone when you really just want a read.In post 67, Horus wrote:Hey, maybe it works, I wouldn't know - I don't try it on principle. Voting for someone and expecting them to feel "pressured" while also announcing to the thread that you aren't interested in actually lynching them seems counterintuitive to me - since the express purpose of a vote is to exact a lynch and the threat of a lynch is the only potential source of "pressure" I can see. Take that threat away and the pressure is gone.
"Hey, I'm going to park my vote on you, but don't worry: I'm not pushing a case against you and I don't want to lynch you. But... it would be really helpful if you would still panic so I can fish for reactions, please."
To get a read. It worked.In post 69, RachMarie wrote:Zionite why are you voting someone who IIRC is on V/LA for Memorial Day Weekend?
UNVOTE:
Not a fan of the mudslinging.In post 70, fuzzybutternut wrote:^because he's scum.
You guys do claims at L-2 right?In post 71, Grimgroove wrote:So, I'm back. I see I'm being accused of lurking? I obviously forgot to state it here, which is my fault, but during the weekends it will always be very difficult for me to come online. I hope this is fine. I always try to make up for that in the weekdays.
Well, you were lurking. But I'm glad to see it's only on weekends.
As far as Zionite's question is concerned about Horus, two things:
Firstly: I don't see the connection between my apparent lack on opinion on Horus and the vote for me. Why are opinions on Horus so important to you, and why mine specifically?
I felt that it was the biggest event of the game so far and it was odd for you to ignore it while fixating on my vote.
Secondly: I'll humour you and answer your question though. In my eyes, Horus makes a lot of sense, his post 33 was already quite robust, but for some reason it's called "flailing" and an "overreaction", something I can't agree with. I see a rational response to some half-baked allegations. I don't mind the allegations per sé, in the beginning they will always be half-baked and you have to start somewhere, but I don't agree with how Horus was treated on page 2. His "SLOOOOWWWW"-post shows the kind of commitment I like in a player. It's a null read affiliation-wise, true, but someone who obiously want things to move forward in a reasonable pace is 1. not lynch-material on D1 because of the activity this will provide. 2. not lynch-material on D1 because active people should be easier to get a firm read on.
So you don't think explaining himself after he caught flak for his vote is scummy, just normal behavior?
@Zionite: And how was my reaction to your vote bad? It was a vote before I had even posted anything, so obviously without a real reason. How could anyone react badly to such a vote? I didn't take it seriously, so I just asked you to remove it in a simplistic manner, not ever seriously thinking that this alone would convince you. How do you see this as an overreaction?
It wasn't really an overreaction, but I expected that if you really didn't take it seriously then you'd simply ignore it. I didn't like that comments on the game state were replaced by a self-conscious fixation. Again, this was the only post of yours that I had to go off of for a read.
I think my vote on Wisdom is also still in a good place. I think it's a very defensive interpretation of 35, and I don't see any reason for this kind of defensiveness, especially from someone who obviously is very sensitive to supposed overreactions himself.
Seems fair. I'm not confident enough to follow you though.Last edited by JasonWazza on Mon May 27, 2013 2:07 am, edited 1 time in total.-
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Zionite Goon
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No. I do the same as Wisdom.In post 81, Grimgroove wrote:
You guys do claims at L-2 right?In post 71, Grimgroove wrote:So, I'm back. I see I'm being accused of lurking? I obviously forgot to state it here, which is my fault, but during the weekends it will always be very difficult for me to come online. I hope this is fine. I always try to make up for that in the weekdays.
Well, you were lurking. But I'm glad to see it's only on weekends.
As far as Zionite's question is concerned about Horus, two things:
Firstly: I don't see the connection between my apparent lack on opinion on Horus and the vote for me. Why are opinions on Horus so important to you, and why mine specifically?
I felt that it was the biggest event of the game so far and it was odd for you to ignore it while fixating on my vote.
I don't agree this actually constitued as a big event, but given the other activity in this topic so far, I guess you could call it the biggest. However, I was only popping my head in, too time-constrained to contribute anything of real value or to read the Horus-Wisdom-Zionite-discussion in depth. If I had to react to anything, I'd only think it logical to respond to any vote on me, even if the vote was only half-serious and my reaction to it as well. As it was my first and only post, I think it's quite a stretch to already start talking about "fixations". From my point of view ignoring a vote, hoping it simply passes, is scummier than anything else. Is your post 48 a fixation on someone voting for you? Saying you'll ignore something is just as much of a reaction as my nonsensical request to remove your vote.
Secondly: I'll humour you and answer your question though. In my eyes, Horus makes a lot of sense, his post 33 was already quite robust, but for some reason it's called "flailing" and an "overreaction", something I can't agree with. I see a rational response to some half-baked allegations. I don't mind the allegations per sé, in the beginning they will always be half-baked and you have to start somewhere, but I don't agree with how Horus was treated on page 2. His "SLOOOOWWWW"-post shows the kind of commitment I like in a player. It's a null read affiliation-wise, true, but someone who obiously want things to move forward in a reasonable pace is 1. not lynch-material on D1 because of the activity this will provide. 2. not lynch-material on D1 because active people should be easier to get a firm read on.
So you don't think explaining himself after he caught flak for his vote is scummy, just normal behavior?
Flak? Wisdom's assertion that he was votehopping is flak? Anyway, I'd say yes, it's pretty normal. In fact, I find people willing to explain themselves more worthy of my trust in general. It gives you something to judge them on. Only when the explanation is bad, it's scummy. If the explanation is good, I see no reason at all why it would be scummy. We all are driven by certain reasons, and I think it's very townish to make yours clear.
@Zionite: And how was my reaction to your vote bad? It was a vote before I had even posted anything, so obviously without a real reason. How could anyone react badly to such a vote? I didn't take it seriously, so I just asked you to remove it in a simplistic manner, not ever seriously thinking that this alone would convince you. How do you see this as an overreaction?
It wasn't really an overreaction, but I expected that if you really didn't take it seriously then you'd simply ignore it. I didn't like that comments on the game state were replaced by a self-conscious fixation. Again, this was the only post of yours that I had to go off of for a read.
You called it an overreaction in post 63. Why call it that if it wasn't really?
I think my vote on Wisdom is also still in a good place. I think it's a very defensive interpretation of 35, and I don't see any reason for this kind of defensiveness, especially from someone who obviously is very sensitive to supposed overreactions himself.
Seems fair. I'm not confident enough to follow you though.
Do you have any other leads that you see? What do you think of Fuzzy's behaviour?
Not that I think this discussion will bring us very far, I realize I've reiterated the majority of what I said before. But I would very much like more activity. When I see the Bingo-game already has 13 pages and started the same day, my heart cries a little bit for this game.
@Wisdom: What do you think of my vote on you? What do you think of Zionite's cases so far?
Not much to go on right now, but both Zionite and Horus are ok in my book, basically because of their high and meaningful activity.
Wisdom and fuzzybutternut I don't like very much.
All the others have left no impression on me whatsoever.[/quote]In post 87, Does Bo Know wrote:I've been skimming.
UNVOTE: fuzzybutternut
VOTE: Zionite
That's L-1. No one fucking hammer yet.
More detailed reads later tonight.-
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Zionite Goon
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Whoops, meant to hit preview.
In post 81, Grimgroove wrote:In post 71, Grimgroove wrote: As far as Zionite's question is concerned about Horus, two things:
Firstly: I don't see the connection between my apparent lack on opinion on Horus and the vote for me. Why are opinions on Horus so important to you, and why mine specifically?
I felt that it was the biggest event of the game so far and it was odd for you to ignore it while fixating on my vote.
I don't agree this actually constitued as a big event, but given the other activity in this topic so far, I guess you could call it the biggest. However, I was only popping my head in, too time-constrained to contribute anything of real value or to read the Horus-Wisdom-Zionite-discussion in depth. If I had to react to anything, I'd only think it logical to respond to any vote on me, even if the vote was only half-serious and my reaction to it as well. As it was my first and only post, I think it's quite a stretch to already start talking about "fixations". From my point of view ignoring a vote, hoping it simply passes, is scummier than anything else. Is your post 48 a fixation on someone voting for you? Saying you'll ignore something is just as much of a reaction as my nonsensical request to remove your vote.
From my experience, being too self-conscious of the votes on yourself instead of the players around you is considered scummy. The meta may be different here, but that's how I've seen it most commonly.
@Zionite: And how was my reaction to your vote bad? It was a vote before I had even posted anything, so obviously without a real reason. How could anyone react badly to such a vote? I didn't take it seriously, so I just asked you to remove it in a simplistic manner, not ever seriously thinking that this alone would convince you. How do you see this as an overreaction?
It wasn't really an overreaction, but I expected that if you really didn't take it seriously then you'd simply ignore it. I didn't like that comments on the game state were replaced by a self-conscious fixation. Again, this was the only post of yours that I had to go off of for a read.
You called it an overreaction in post 63. Why call it that if it wasn't really?
I considered it a tell of overreaction, but no one else responded to it the same way. So either I'm wrong (which makes the point invalid), or the tell doesn't have the same reliability on MS (which makes it no good anyway).
I think my vote on Wisdom is also still in a good place. I think it's a very defensive interpretation of 35, and I don't see any reason for this kind of defensiveness, especially from someone who obviously is very sensitive to supposed overreactions himself.
Seems fair. I'm not confident enough to follow you though.
Do you have any other leads that you see? What do you think of Fuzzy's behaviour?
I'll wait until the wagon on me blows over to go after Fuzzy. Doing it now will only draw cries of deflection and OMGUS regardless of what I say. I'd rather hear what he has to say first anyway. Other than that, probably Malakittens and Miss Destroyer need a look.
I don't like this. What's the rush on the vote if you're going to explain it later?In post 87, Does Bo Know wrote:I've been skimming.
UNVOTE: fuzzybutternut
VOTE: Zionite
That's L-1. No one fucking hammer yet.
More detailed reads later tonight.-
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Zionite Goon
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In post 90, Does Bo Know wrote:What's wrong with the vote?
I don't know why I have to do this.In post 89, Zionite wrote:Whoops, meant to hit preview.
I don't like this.In post 87, Does Bo Know wrote:I've been skimming.
UNVOTE: fuzzybutternut
VOTE: Zionite
That's L-1. No one fucking hammer yet.
More detailed reads later tonight.What's the rush on the vote if you're going to explain it later?-
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Zionite Goon
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I'm used to L-2 being claim range. L-1 feels like rushing things, especially when you're not even going to explain the vote at all. Pressure I can understand, but you led us to believe there was something more to it and still have not produced the details promised.-
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Zionite Goon
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Anyone could hammer me right now and just say "oops". I've seen it happen when town forget to check the VC and accidentally lynch someone at L-1. This policy makes sense assuming only scum would hammer at this juncture, but having seen town do it too makes me nervous when there hasn't been much presented against me.-
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You haven't given us reason for the original vote besides pressure despite promising more details.In post 102, fuzzybutternut wrote:Well, I initially put my vote on him to pressure him and, since then, he's shown me no reason to take it off, so, yeah.
You haven't shown why my response to your pressure vote is reason to leave it there.-
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Zionite Goon
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Here's the way I see it: you throw a vote on me promising details later.
No details come.
I can either 1) Call you out on it, you say I'm "freaking out" or 2) totally ignore it, you call me scum for ignoring your vote. You haven't shown what a town response would be, so how would I know whether your point is valid or not?-
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Zionite Goon
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It's putting the cart before the horse; you say you have a reason to vote me, and then you say my reaction is the reason to vote me.-
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Zionite Goon
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Grim explained it pretty well; there's no way I can defend against an interpretive argument. I can deny it, but I can't prove it wrong because it's subjective. It's awfully convenient for DBK. I still don't like how the details promised with his vote didn't actually exist; he was going to leave it there regardless of my response.
The fact that Malakittens hasn't quoted a single post of mine pointing out what exactly "freaking out" is, or shown me similar behavior from a scum player (or even my own meta, as it has been provided and available), makes it difficult to refute. There's no facts to disprove; just my word against his (hers?). I'd much rather work with verifiable scum tells.
DBK: You say you can't read Rach's meta despite the post 99 being scummy to you. Why is it not possible that my posts seem scummy but you can't read me due to meta? Or are you just fence sitting to pretend to have an opinion on Rach?
Malakittens: If you're reading DBK as scum, why are you on the same wagon as him? Do you think he's bussing?-
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Zionite Goon
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So DBK's argument for me being scum, according to his catch up post, is that he disagrees with me over Horus' activity. I have a different opinion from his, so I'm scum. I also think my vote has the capability to be used for pressure which somehow makes me scum. The fact that I don't like defending and casing at the same time makes me scum (would like to see a reason why this is besides "scum scum").
Where is Miss Destroyer?-
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Zionite Goon
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Wait, was? It's changed since then?In post 138, Does Bo Know wrote: If you guys would’ve wanted a summary of things, Imight’vegiven them to you, depending on if Ifor surehad the time. But again, people jump to conclusions, assume that if I would’ve had a case on people, I would’ve said it, or some of it, at the time of my vote, but the truth is, I’m going to say this again, thatI voted L-1 earlybecause I was confident Zionite was scum, the pressure could've helped in others' questioning of Zionite, and that it was exactly what I needed to do to make my presence more known.
Why is DBK prob town?In post 147, RachMarie wrote:Still working on those....
You I tend to find hard to read, but you have also been Town in those games so ehh you can go in the leaning Town pile
DBK is also prob town.
that is all I have atm
more later-
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Zionite Goon
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Sure, I'll address it since you worked on it. I still think it should have come sooner though, like the night you promised it.In post 155, Does Bo Know wrote:I still am confident you're scum, Zionite. At the time of my L-1 vote, I was confident you were scum, and I still am.
Also, I'm fairly certain that I have the most organized case outline of Zionite. It's not inside a wall, it's actually in the post where I spoilered something. The only other points I've seen about Zionite are overreacting, and that's actually something I don't agree with as far as Zionite-scum goes.
So if you'd rather not read walls about that, you can look at what I have.
In post 137, Does Bo Know wrote: Horus is town because of his first question to get us out of RVS (town-motivated), and because I agree with his reasons for every action he's done so far (town-motivated because I'm town).
I agree with you that getting the town out of RVS is pro town. However, the disconnect I have is whether or notthat is what Horus intended to do. I don't think he was intentionally trying to get the town out of RVS. However,Iwas intentionally using the situation to end RVS, having experienced success in doing so in other games. Go back and read page 2 again. I'll ask you, does it look like I want RVS to continue, or does it look like I'm using the situation to begin the real game? If ending RVS is pro-town, then you should be reading my exchange with Horus as a pro-town exchange, not as a scum attack.
My case against Zionite:
- Accuses Horus of being scum because he believes Horus is over-justifying a vote, even though Horus's vote and question about Fuzzy got us out of RVS, and the question didn't look worthless.
It looked worthless to me. Whether it got us out of RVS or not doesn't change it's meaning, which was over-justification. Yes it's a town-tell in this regard, which is why I dropped my vote quickly. But the overjustification was nonetheless present even if it wasn't a scum-tell in this instance.
- 59 looks like he's trying to say Fuzzy is scum if Fuzzy were to keep defending his point, but doesn't follow through with that accusation. A fairly weak point, maybe I can ask Zionite exactly what he thinks of Fuzzy.
I've been fairly obvious as to what I think about fuzzy. If you don't know what it is then you haven't paid attention. But I have to ask, how does accusing Fuzzy make me scum? Do you know Fuzzy to be town?
- He just looks like he's taking most of the credit for getting a read on Grimgroove, because of his sole vote, when from what I can tell in Grimgroove's early posts, the vote on Grimgroove didn't really have any impact.
I don't care about getting credit; I care about getting reads. My vote got a response, and a read. That's what I wanted. Successful operation.-
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Fuzzy is high on my suspect list, but I'm not pursuing it at the moment because I can't convince a town to think my way if they believe I'm scum. It's a waste of time better spent shooting down bad arguments against me. I've said a couple of times that this was my goal; I think you're just being intentionally dense.
That's your opinion. By my count, my vote did exactly what it was set out to do and even led Grimgroove to the conclusion that I'm town. I could argue that I saved us from mislynching, but it would be WIFOM. So I don't really care about the rhetoric you're pushing in lieu of facts (didn't mean shit, strutting around, complaining, loaded words in general). The events speak for themselves.
It would be deflection. I'd rather handle this now and get to the cases when we're out of the woods.-
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I'll case Fuzzy when you're done with whatever this is.
Does that make me scum? Your original argument somehow concludes that it does but I don't follow.
Some things can't be defended, and you're really good at pushing those rhetorical arguments. But when you pull it apart and look at the pieces it's easier to tell where it is flawed. This is a good interaction though; I think it's safe to say we're not scum buddies.-
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In post 161, Horus wrote:RachMarie:
I'm coming around to the Zionite wagon, I've been trying to work out my thoughts on him and I'm actually finding it a very arduous task to move him out of the null column one way or the other; we basically get one snippet of meaningful activity between him and I immediately outside of RVS, and after that his focus immediately narrows exclusively to trying to negotiate townreads on him.In post 103, Horus wrote:Rach and Grim, thoughts on fuzzy?
His early content becomes crucial in reading him because almost everything afterward is focused on defense and claiming towncred, which does less to inform us of his alignment and more his personality/playstyle: It is evident that Zionite is accustomed to being able to snatch early towncred and begin to command the thread in the game's earliest stages. The fact that this strategy has so spectacularly backfired in this instance confounds him and he is now focused almost entirely on figuring out what went wrong and reclaiming the perceived towncred he feels we're denying him.
This singular focus on defense is something I would ordinarily find scummy, but I've been burned enough times by people who did this and flipped Town to be wary - his ego (as I perceive it) suggests he is a seasoned player, however, who wouldn't fall victim to such a vice as Town (his #89 provides a helpful window, informing us he does, in fact, consider one's fixation on their own wagon a scumtell), so I am left to wonder...why did he stop scumhunting once he became a suspect?
I like this wagon, but I'm wary because I've heard a lot of quiet agreement that fuzzybutternut is suspicious, but there's been no movement on that front - which is rather odd.In post 162, Does Bo Know wrote:Well, sometimes you can't defend every point, Zionite.
You see, some points in cases will be at the discretion of the player. You could do all the convincing in the world, but sometimes it won't work. If every point in a scum case could be defended, then every player could defend themselves out of a wagon.
I view you as scum, and maybe the points I have against you are not under your control, or not-defendable. The thing is, if you're under a wagon and a lynch could be imminent, do what it takes to help town (or pretend to help town, if you're scum) the most, whether it be defend yourself, attempt to scumhunt, or if you're lynched, leave reads that you have so it can give us a better understanding.In post 163, fuzzybutternut wrote:
You'll come to realize sooner or later that the way I play this game is completely different from anyone else. That being said, you'll get used to this....In post 161, Horus wrote:RachMarie:
I'm coming around to the Zionite wagon, I've been trying to work out my thoughts on him and I'm actually finding it a very arduous task to move him out of the null column one way or the other; we basically get one snippet of meaningful activity between him and I immediately outside of RVS, and after that his focus immediately narrows exclusively to trying to negotiate townreads on him.In post 103, Horus wrote:Rach and Grim, thoughts on fuzzy?
His early content becomes crucial in reading him because almost everything afterward is focused on defense and claiming towncred, which does less to inform us of his alignment and more his personality/playstyle: It is evident that Zionite is accustomed to being able to snatch early towncred and begin to command the thread in the game's earliest stages. The fact that this strategy has so spectacularly backfired in this instance confounds him and he is now focused almost entirely on figuring out what went wrong and reclaiming the perceived towncred he feels we're denying him.
This singular focus on defense is something I would ordinarily find scummy, but I've been burned enough times by people who did this and flipped Town to be wary - his ego (as I perceive it) suggests he is a seasoned player, however, who wouldn't fall victim to such a vice as Town (his #89 provides a helpful window, informing us he does, in fact, consider one's fixation on their own wagon a scumtell), so I am left to wonder...why did he stop scumhunting once he became a suspect?
I like this wagon, but I'm wary because I've heard a lot of quiet agreement that fuzzybutternut is suspicious, but there's been no movement on that front - which is rather odd.
or you won't. Doesn't matter to me.In post 164, fuzzybutternut wrote:In post 160, Zionite wrote:I'll case Fuzzy when you're done with whatever this is.
Does that make me scum? Your original argument somehow concludes that it does but I don't follow.
Some things can't be defended, and you're really good at pushing those rhetorical arguments. But when you pull it apart and look at the pieces it's easier to tell where it is flawed. This is a good interaction though; I think it's safe to say we're not scum buddies.
If I was one of your top suspects, you'd already have been on my case and you wouldn't have left my case unless you had a reason.-
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Zionite Goon
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They should really disable posts if there's nothing new. /MTGS Problems
I only command the early game AFTER the wagon on me has dissipated. Yes, this has happened before, which is why it doesn't bother me to wait it out. I'm sure I won't be lynched today. If it was going to happen it would have already. Nothing new has been presented.In post 161, Horus wrote:RachMarie:
I'm coming around to the Zionite wagon, I've been trying to work out my thoughts on him and I'm actually finding it a very arduous task to move him out of the null column one way or the other; we basically get one snippet of meaningful activity between him and I immediately outside of RVS, and after that his focus immediately narrows exclusively to trying to negotiate townreads on him.In post 103, Horus wrote:Rach and Grim, thoughts on fuzzy?
His early content becomes crucial in reading him because almost everything afterward is focused on defense and claiming towncred, which does less to inform us of his alignment and more his personality/playstyle: It is evident that Zionite is accustomed to being able to snatch early towncred and begin to command the thread in the game's earliest stages. The fact that this strategy has so spectacularly backfired in this instance confounds him and he is now focused almost entirely on figuring out what went wrong and reclaiming the perceived towncred he feels we're denying him.
This singular focus on defense is something I would ordinarily find scummy, but I've been burned enough times by people who did this and flipped Town to be wary - his ego (as I perceive it) suggests he is a seasoned player, however, who wouldn't fall victim to such a vice as Town (his #89 provides a helpful window, informing us he does, in fact, consider one's fixation on their own wagon a scumtell), so I am left to wonder...why did he stop scumhunting once he became a suspect?
I like this wagon, but I'm wary because I've heard a lot of quiet agreement that fuzzybutternut is suspicious, but there's been no movement on that front - which is rather odd.
But let me ask you this: if you're right that this is my preferred playstyle as town (earn towncred, command game), then how does that change things if you "like" my wagon? It seems to me that: if you know that this is how I play, then it seems unlikely that as scum I wouldn't be deflecting to another target right now. Refusing to do that shows I'm not scared to face these arguments head on because I know they're flawed and don't mind showing how.
I can defend most points. The ones I can't is due to fallacy, like the rhetoric or subjective ones you are fond of. You can call something an overreaction that I interpret as normal and vice versa. Or I can say you're as scummy as the bottom of my shoe. But it's less likely to hit scum than something like vote count analysis. You can rely on rhetoric to convince the town, and you may even get lucky sometimes, but it's not how I like to do things because you can get tunnel-vision easily like you have here. It's fairly easy to see from your catch-up post that you're tunneling on me. It's far better to try to use good logic and be wrong sometimes than it is to mislynch without realizing what you're doing. I've lost many games doing that and it fosters a mistrust in your meta overall.In post 162, Does Bo Know wrote:Well, sometimes you can't defend every point, Zionite.
You see, some points in cases will be at the discretion of the player. You could do all the convincing in the world, but sometimes it won't work. If every point in a scum case could be defended, then every player could defend themselves out of a wagon.
I view you as scum, and maybe the points I have against you are not under your control, or not-defendable. The thing is, if you're under a wagon and a lynch could be imminent, do what it takes to help town (or pretend to help town, if you're scum) the most, whether it be defend yourself, attempt to scumhunt, or if you're lynched, leave reads that you have so it can give us a better understanding.
You're just so .In post 163, fuzzybutternut wrote: You'll come to realize sooner or later that the way I play this game is completely different from anyone else. That being said, you'll get used to this....
or you won't. Doesn't matter to me.
A man once told me, "You'll come to realize sooner or later that the way I play this game is completely different from anyone else. That being said, you'll get used to this....In post 164, fuzzybutternut wrote:In post 160, Zionite wrote:I'll case Fuzzy when you're done with whatever this is.
Does that make me scum? Your original argument somehow concludes that it does but I don't follow.
Some things can't be defended, and you're really good at pushing those rhetorical arguments. But when you pull it apart and look at the pieces it's easier to tell where it is flawed. This is a good interaction though; I think it's safe to say we're not scum buddies.
If I was one of your top suspects, you'd already have been on my case and you wouldn't have left my case unless you had a reason.
or you won't. Doesn't matter to me."
Is that a valid response?-
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Zionite Goon
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- At first, yes. When I unvoted, no.In post 170, Does Bo Know wrote:Not tunnel vision.
But keep trying. Maybe the seventh time you tell me I'll believe it's tunnel vision?
This is a response to your rebuttal of my case on you, Zionite:
- Let me ask something simple for the first part: did you find Horus's over-justification scummy, yes or no?
- I didn't see how you obviously feel about Fuzzy at the time.
- I understand that you got a read and a reaction from Grimgroove like you wanted, but your vote literally didn't do anything to influence Grim's posting. I believe you're giving yourself too much credit for the little things you have done, and that everything else you have done hasn't been pro-town. Why do you believe defending yourself is more pro-town than scumhunting and pursuing others?
If you truly believe that you won't be lynched today, Zionite, then why are you so worried about your wagon still?
- I know the type of player he is. If I had been more obvious about it, then I'd be fighting a two-front war of defending myself and responding to his defense of a half-baked case (which has started now, thanks for that). Ask the Germans how it worked out for them. It's not wrong, just bad.
- I'm typically not moved by cases presented by someone at L-2 (or 1). At that point it's more of a cry for the attention to shift to their target instead of themselves. I've found that players who adamantly attack someone else while sitting at L-2 (or 1) instead of addressing the case on themselves flip scum.
I'm not worried about it. I'm patient. I'm just having to repeat myself a lot.
@Horus: So, what were you saying then? How is my playstyle even relevant?
I've shown an interest in scumhunting, but not scumhunting and defending at the same time. I'm putting out a lot of content already and doubling that seems excessive when we have others barely posting at all.-
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Zionite Goon
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Ok.In post 178, Horus wrote:Zionite: I think I said at the time that the information I was able to glean about your playstyle wasn't alignment-indicative, just helpful in understanding the perspective your posts are coming from.
Not liking the way you keep trying to couch townreads on you into other players' posts where they don't belong.
I'm not trying to couch townreads; I'm looking for contradictions in mindset.-
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Zionite Goon
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It wasn't clear to me, otherwise I wouldn't have mentioned it.In post 183, Horus wrote:In post #154 you tried to infer from DBK's wording that his scumread on you had changed, despite his actual intent with the usage of past tense being quite clear. Then you blatantly assigned a townread to my analysis of you in your #175, when there was pretty much no rational way you could have read my post that way.
I think there was a disconnect where I recognized that as my town playstyle and you recognizing it as my playstyle in general. I thought it was an uncanny summary and wasn't able to believe that you'd come that far nailing me only to be undecided on my alignment.-
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Zionite Goon
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Zionite Goon
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It makes it easier for town to give town reads. For example, a player giving town reads makes it much harder for themselves to switch later when it's convenient, something scum like to do.In post 214, Wisdom wrote:No reason to give your town-reads(which is what I mostly have) to scum.
You know who I scumread.-
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Zionite Goon
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Definitely, thanks. I'll have a bigger post later tonight.
Rach seems aloof to me; not really engaging with the material in the game, favoring minutiae, etc. I can't call that a scum attribute because I know plenty of town who do the same thing, but only to a certain point. I'd like to see the answers to DBK's questions.-
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Zionite Goon
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So I ISO'd fuzzy in order to get a clearer picture of his play so far. My main point against him is a contradiction of interest in pursuing me over Grimgroove despite committing the same "scummy" act. There's also another lesser contradiction where his pressure vote has value but my pressure vote is somehow useless, but both have the same strength.
Premise number 1:Zionite did not ignore a vote on himself without reason. 48
Premise number 2:Grimgroove did not ignore a vote on himself without reason. 49
Premise number 3:The Town response to a vote on yourself without reason is to ignore it. 149
Premise number 4:Fuzzybutternut votes Zionite. Does not mention any read on Grimgroove. 54
Conclusion:Fuzzy is showing preference to voting Zionite over Grimgroove despite both being valid targets.
He has yet to give a read on Grimgroove at all. I can't say why he shows preference, but my instinct believes it is because I had more votes on me at the time.
VOTE: Fuzzybutternut
I've cut some irrelevant stuff to make it easier to read, so please give it a look.
Spoiler: fuzzywuzzy
After reviewing Rach's posts as well, I'd be comfortable switching my vote to her if needed.-
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Zionite Goon
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Well I can tell you what I found suspicious.In post 248, RachMarie wrote:At Zionite
Not sure why everyone thinks I am scum in just about every game I am in...
PL is Policy Lynch
I didn't like how your early game is just coaching me. It was nice, but also avoided participating in the game. It's not content in the sense that I can tell where your positions are and get a read of you.
99 is a bad reason to write someone off as town and lacks confidence ("ehhh", "for now"). Wisdom is right that this is scummy following other players stating their Town Horus reads.
139 has the same lack of confidence going on ("kinda fishy"). It seems for the most part you think he's town, but you leave doubt. Not a great point, but whatever.
145 backs down in the face of pressure. Also not pleased with the submission of irrelevant facts to sway Wisdom's opinion; it doesn't matter how many times he's mislynched you when we're playing a new game. Unless you can show similarities from his play in that game and the play here, it's an irrelevant point.
147 lack of confidence ("ehh"), no real reasons given.
179 irrelevant and avoids content.
221 Again playing on this "I'll flip town" thing; there's nothing saying that you are town this game. Meta can be useful here if you're resourceful, but as it is, this just reflects badly on you. It's as if you can't respond to his arguments so you just proclaim you're town as if that explains everything. You're also fence sitting on several players without giving specific reasons why. You're quick to hand out town reads, but you never follow through on the process of elimination. "These people are town so that means...someone else figure this out".
So yeah, mainly lacking confidence in your reads, not giving specific examples, not following through on your POE, and somehow believing your frequent mislynches are the reason you're town.-
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Zionite Goon
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I agree that the way he went about it (tone, vocabulary) sounds more town than not, but you can't write him off as town for doing something that scum is capable of as well. So was it simply the action of admitting a mistake or the way he did it that gives you the town impression?In post 280, fuzzybutternut wrote:Because it's solely based off your last post.
Why have you not responded to my case on you, or any of my posts, if I'm still your scum read? I'd think you'd like to show others why I'm scum based on this.-
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Zionite Goon
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Zionite Goon
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Can you at least give me an ETA of when you'll even acknowledge a case on you exists Fuzzy?-
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Zionite Goon
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If the town response to a vote on you without reason is to ignore it, doesn't that mean the town response to a vote on you with copious amounts of reason is to acknowledge it?-
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Zionite Goon
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Oh, and if Malakittens is my scumbuddy in your read, how do you explain the vote on me back on 53, and the extended amount of time that vote remained there? I find it hard to argue the second vote on someone is a bus vote.-
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Zionite
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Zionite Goon
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Zionite Goon
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@Rach: you're too quick to find (bad) evidence that you're town instead of voting obvious scum Fuzzy.-
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Zionite Goon
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When a player refuses to even acknowledge a case against themselves it's pretty much guaranteed unless he's just bad.-
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Zionite Goon
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Again, this is the same guy that says I'm on his scum list. Why wouldn't he use this as an opportunity to solidify that read and persuade others? It only makes sense if he's scum or bad at mafia, so I think he's scum.
I don't care what his meta is; if he wants to present it as a defense I'll listen but it's not my job to go look for it.-
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Zionite Goon
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Again, not my job. The posting in this game supports a scum mindset, especially the ignoring of a case. If it's a bad case it should be easy for him to show why. Silence is admitting it's true. I find that when a player ignores a case against them it's indicative of being guilty. I just can't fathom why a town player would totally ignore a case on them unless they're bad.In post 327, Wisdom wrote:
And you ruled out the other option because...?In post 324, Zionite wrote:It only makes sense if he's scum or bad at mafia, so I think he's scum.
If I had this dilemma I'd meta him to see if he's actually bad at mafia so I could support this argument.
And it's not just ignoring the case, it's ignoring everything I say. It's bullshit that he calls me scum and does no follow through whatsoever and I'm calling him out.-
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Zionite Goon
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Zionite Goon
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Neither is fuzzy. He's acknowledging my presence but not anything that's applicable to him.In post 333, Wisdom wrote:You're not answering.-
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Zionite Goon
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I'm clearly not treating you the same that fuzzy is treating me.In post 337, Wisdom wrote:So because fuzzy (who in your mind is scum) is ignoring you, you thought that it's okay to ignore me too?-
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Zionite Goon
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I rule it out until there's reason to believe otherwise. I've said twice now that it's not my job to do meta research, especially when it's not the game i'm in currently. My current game takes precedence over meta every time. Are you saying fuzzy is a bad player?In post 341, Wisdom wrote:So answer me. You're saying fuzzy is either scum or bad. Why did you rule out the latter since you didn't do any research?
Why is this the point you're fighting? I have a whole post dedicated to showing the contradictions fuzzy has presented in his play. It seems like you're cherry picking points you can argue against.-
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Zionite Goon
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In post 348, fuzzybutternut wrote:
That is relevant, what with all the meta talk going on.In post 335, RachMarie wrote:umm Fuzzy mine is way out of date too, but got anything else to say? like something relevant to the game at hand?
What do you think of Zio's case on you?
What do you think of how Wis has been defending you?
Zio's case on me is shit. I have no reason to sit here and argue against it, because it's a scum-drawn wagon. Nothing I say is going to make scum change their minds that they want to lynch me. Look elsewhere if you're not scum.
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