ＭＩＣＲＯ ３７３ — ＳＰＡＣＥ ＩＮＶＡＤＥＲＳ ＭＡＦＩＡ — ＧＡＭＥ ＯＶＥＲ

[Regfan]

We actually need to minimise the strategy talk at the moment, right now there's too many variables to take into account when creating a plan (ie. Alignment of the lynched player, alignment of the shot player, how many obvtown players we have), we'll much better be able to assess these later in the day and then create a strategy that best suits the situation. Us focusing too much on strategy talk here will allow scum to pop into the thread in a way that's p easy to fake as scum since strategy talk is something that's most likely going to be non-alignment relevant (Lets be honest, all of us were thinking of how to break or play this game pre-game before roles were even handed out). The only thing we need to agree on is that quick-hammers and quick lynches are a no-no this game.

Also, in regards to my shot, I'm going to take everything said into consideration, but ultimately the shot will be at my discretion.

Just putting it out there that if someone suggests "voting" for how I use my shot, I am going to be reluctant to accept that.

I will gladly take it into account when making a decision, but in all likelihood I'm not going to be giving this power up the the whim of the majority.

Understand where you're coming from here but I want

everyone only to vote for who to vig

, regular votes are useless at this point because a lynch before a shot occurs means that the shot is lost so no lynch is plausible (or good) until the shots gone of, that nullifies the regular threat of "you're 2 away from a lynch".

Speaking of which not seeing your town read on NS at all, actually leaning the opposite way with him at the moment:

Vote to vig: NS

[Regfan]

Molla, strategy talk seriously needs to stop, after the day shots gone off and there's more reads in the game sure we can discuss it but right now it makes it far too easy for scum to coast through a few days on strategy talk and with 7 day phases not something we can afford.

Lets try it a different way, say you had the gun right now and had to shoot straight away based on the posts in the thread who dies and why?

The only reason I see NS as a maybe scum is because of this post

Eh, that's not the post that makes me lean scum on him, don't actually think that one is alignment relevant, it's more the phrasing of Post 8 and Post 21 v Post 22.

[Regfan]

No one, not everyone has posted. beastcharizard, Clusk92, and ZZZX still have yet to post. I understand that you said shoot straight away but why the rush when 1/3 of people haven't even made a post?

Question was directed at Molla for one and for two it's p much "Do you find anyones posts even remotely scummy, if so who and why"?

I would say that's just randomness at the start of a Mafia game but that's just my perspective.

I don't think either of the posts I linked are "randomness"..?

[Regfan]

Clusk, kills don't stack (It's already been mentioned inside this thread...) meaning the only way 2 people being on RC backfires is if both are mafia. Also your "solid town read" is the innocent child, you're kidding, right?

Hey, genius read the OP he specifically says that it's modified from the setup that most of us know So when I looked at the setup I was like, huh what

It's the fact that you quoted from the OP 3 lines above where it states that bunkers cannot self-protect to make a point to RC but apparently still didn't notice that's how this game was being played, it was also mentioned in the queue. The whole thing especially the phrasing of #8 looks contrived.

PEdit: Christ you post quick.

[Regfan]

I'm serious, quit the strategy posts until the shots fired.

BBmolla and flames are town

I've got a town read on BBMolla (Albeit incredibly weak) but not seeing the one on Flames, walk me through it?

[Regfan]

ZZZX is scum and should be shot. This isn't a joke.

Don't agree with this read, I have him as town; explain the scum read for me please. Also this is not a game of "pray you hit scum", standard scumhunting still applies.

[Regfan]

Yeah, seeing the Flame town read now.

I have BBMolla, ZZZX and Flame all as town at the moment, still think NS is scum.

[Regfan]

Well, you agree that we have to talk about it eventually, yes? I think BB's plan is a good starting point. If you mean that we shouldn't be assigning protects yet out loud, I agree with that, but the fundamentals of a plan don't bother me at all.

I think I explained this in enough detail before but you seem to be missing it? The point is that strategy talk is non-alignment relevant, it's useful sure (in determining what strategy to use) but it's not useful in attaining reads and given that we need the shot to go off pretty early so we have time to then scumhunt elsewhere (+ use interactions if scum get shot), agree on a lynch elsewhere and get 5 votes on them in 7 days wasting 2-3 days where people only speak about strategy at the start is a dreadful idea. Ignore the setup right now, treat it as a standard scumhunt, once the vig shots gone off then talk strategy.

By the by, my ns townread comes from him pushing back on my first, basic plan of action with some good information.

P strongly disagree with this town read and this reasoning; think him shooting down the strategy as an action is something that's null because him encouraging it isn't a plausible scum strategy and I didn't like the tone in which he did so, similarly haven't liked his follow up posts but largely what I'm getting at re; his initial posts is that he quoted the OP when talking with you, 3 lines underneath the line he quoted is something stating that self protects aren't plausible, doesn't really mesh.
laims to get.[/quote]

[Regfan]

Flames is obvious town at this point btw

100% agree, would bet the game on him being town, his scum read on ZZZX is incredibly genuine (Do think he's gotten to the wrong conclusion there though, I'm reading ZZZX as just one of those players that think any plan or action they do is great without actually thinking it through rather than scum).

[Regfan]

If he said he played 100+ games of this then he would know that there aren't 7 docs and that a doc will prolly die on D1.

I know what you're saying, I just don't think it's an alignment tell, he comes across to me as the sort of player that doesn't think through what he's saying at all in general so I'm not finding it as a scum tell. What's your reads and thoughts on players that aren't named ZZZ and NS btw?

Activity is crucial here. Activity about anything. I guess we just disagree that scum could still trip up in discussing strategy. Further, I don't think discussing one precludes the other (see: Flames' 89) as players can be critical of one another's proposals.

I don't agree "activity about anything" is useful, it's veeeeeeery easy to fake posts on strategy as mafia and get into a discussion with someone about it which will then create as a cover for not talking about much else. Sure, it's possible to talk about both but it's far more beneficial to table that and just scumhunt. And I know you want a lot more content and information before a shot goes of but we're already 2 days in, we only have 5 days left, lets go with the assumption that just getting 5 votes on one player alone takes 2 days that'd only give us 3 days to scumhunt and agree on a lynch if the shot were to happen right now, the longer it's left the fewer days we get there and the more risk there is in us either not getting a lynch by deadline or by scum having more control over who the lynch is.

You don't think buttering up the LC is a plausible scum strategy, regardless of how subtle, unintentional-looking and/or miniscule it may be?

I don't. I have no real meta on NS btw and lately I've tried to rely on meta a lot less, majority of the town loses sitewide I've seen lately have been on the back of players either pushing incorrect meta scum reads or clearing someone for 'meta reasons' and that person being scum.

Why are you people not voting me if you're scumreading me? Afraid you'll get caught in your bullshit?

This just continues to prove you're not reading the thread; it's been mentioned several times that a lynch cannot happen before the shot goes off, if that happens the shot is lost entirely and once the shots made the vote count resets making it entirely pointless to place any standard votes down right now.

[Regfan]

Clusk you've been incredibly active elsewhere but nearly no presence in this thread; I want your reads on everyone in the room.

Beast, still waiting for your ZZZ scum read to be explained in detail.

RC, I'm very serious about a shot needing to happen soon and wanting it to be NS shot, if you're insistent on not shooting him Clusks a decent alternative.

[Regfan]

RC, deadline is in 4 days, we need time to analyse the kill, decide the lynch and get 5 votes on them. You need to shoot when you get online.

Still at NS!Scum, BBMolla+Flame!StrongTown, ZZZX!WeakTown and Clusk!WeakScum.

Are you implying you think I'm scummy because of this? I don't always post in every game I'm in when I'm online.

Yes, I think lurking / avoiding this game is a scum tell, with 7 day phases activity is massively required and scum want as much lurking as possible.

His strategy is bad. It doesn't even make sense and doesn't get is past day 3 with the LC living.

Not to mention his demeanor is scummy. Throw in guy

and he needs to be shot or lynched.

Explain why bad strategy = Scum for me please because I don't really think that's an alignment tell. Also explain the bolded areas for me, not understanding them.

[Regfan]

RC, you make me sad. Very sad.

I don't think Clusks reaction to the shot or ZZZX's pushing is that big a scum tell at all. How notscience wasn't shot is beyond me, there's 1) The fact that his initial post has a quote dragged from the OP that has the statement that Bunkers can't self save 3 lines underneath making his subsequent reaction to learning that look very contrived, there's 2) His reaction towards me scum reading him being him trying to insult me while not actual stating anything on topic and 3) His self-vote which is him as scum trying to shake the attention by throwing a WIFOM-Gambit and 4) Him stating that peoples reads on him are bullshit because they weren't voting him, something that was explained several times as something not plausible to do before he made his comment and afterwards proving he's not actually reading the thread.

Vote: Notscience

As for strategies the one that I think is the best by and far is

in the case of a scum lynch

we should have the following put in place:

Player A and Player B on RC (Player A and Player B would be the two scummiest players we agree on):
Player C and Player D on each other (Would be 2 players we town read)
Player E and player F on each other (Would be 2 players we town read)

That would make mean that it's only plausible for players A and B to die N1 and no one else. If one of player A and B are mafia (And given they're the two strongest scum reads it's likely) only one person will die N1 it being a scum read of ours and we'll be in a strong position tomorrow and if a player elsewhere is mafia then they'd be forced to kill the 2 scummiest players in the room for us.

Willing to hear if anyone thinks there's any flaw in this plan at all but if there's not we should lock it in (Attached with names) for what we do if we lynch scum. Also willing to hear what people think the exact system should we if we lynch town because I'm less sure as a strategy re; that since I think it gets a lot more messy, truthfully was banking on a vig-shot hitting mafia...

[Regfan]

Yeah, this is a seriously shit way to start the weekend.

[Regfan]

You do realize we lose if RC dies right? So why are we putting our scummiest players to protect him?

Because if we lynch scum then at least one of the 2 scummiest players have to be town?

[Regfan]

As for the strategy, Refgan, you said in case of a scum lynch, what about in case of a town lynch? I know that NS is probably scum but just for the sake of what ifs. Also I agree more with molla's plan as I don't trust 2 of our scummiest players to protect RC.

Again, if we lynch mafia it's objectively impossible for both of the scummiest players to be mafia so there should be no reason putting it up to them to save RC.

As for if we lynch town I'm willing to listen to suggestions, like I said it gets a lot messier then.

[Regfan]

Also

Unvote

NS is scum but we need a strategy for if he flips scum and town with exact allocations in place before we put anyone near L-1 or L-2.

[Regfan]

Notscience is scum, we go your route, he's town we go mine?

That works. If anyone finds a flaw with either plan or has a better suggestion we'd need to hear it soon.

I'm heading out, going to try and forget this game for a few hours.

[Regfan]

Flames, I think Jmos slots more likely scum than Beast so the plan in Post 157 works for me.

Flames/molla tho scumteam

This'll be funny, why are Molla and Flames scum? (Both are obvtown)

1. We are telling scum who they can kill. We lose if all bunkers die as well. 2. No way I am following that. 3. Towniest and scummiest together makes more sense for protecting. This also doesn't allow us to get past Day 3 still.Strategy isn't something that can be used for something like this. It has to be pure scum hunting and wifom.

You're being stupid here, it's impossible to get past D3 ANYWAY given that there's 2 deaths per day, to get past D3 there'd have to be 0 kills N1, 0 kills N2 and 0 kills N3, that's never ever going to happen. The aim shouldn't be to "get past D3" it should be to get to tomorrow making sure that we direct the night kills instead of the mafia thereby getting rid of scummy players without having to waste a shot/lynch OR there being no kills because the scummy players are town.

I am protecting who I want to protect and that is the optimal strategy. WE ARE TELLING SCUM WHO THEY CAN KILL SAFELY! Tonight 3 people would did with this strategy because scum also each have their own independent kills! We are literally handing them the win with announcing the strategy so I out right refuse to follow it.

You're wrong again. If 3 kills occur we don't lose and we get a confirmed mafia with this plan and that's in worst case scenario.

Please step back and use your brain for a bit. If there's 3 kills and we mslynch it turns into 4 alive tomorrow, Lazor, Bunker, 2 Scum, games not lost because Lazor shot and correct lynch can be a win and if you're reading the strategy for the 3rd kill to occur scum would have to shoot someone that they're meant to be protecting confirming themselves. That means absolute worst case scenario from following this plan is that it ends up in a 3 way with a clear.

if notscience is scum we should doctrain btw

Like A>B>C>D>E>F>G>RC If A is scum nobody dies

Naw, I still like 2 protecting RC just because I'd rather not lose after lynching scum D1 just because a town read was wrong.

[Regfan]

Well you see when a mommy scum and a daddy scum love each other very much

Naw, that doesn't suffice. If you're town actually answer it; Why are Flames and Molla scum?

[Regfan]

Gut!

Not going to cut it.

Regfan you are willing to bet the whole game that your reads are right about who is town. If ns is town, still haven't gotten a reason why he is scum from anyone, then there are two scum left. Those could be the two Towniest people in the plans eyes and guess what. We lose because your plan decided no one but those 2 can protect the LC.

I decided to be stubborn and not follow the plan at all now. I am using my brain and this plan is dumb and has a huge hole.

If

both

of my strongest town reads are scum then we're never winning this game anyway so it's hardly a "risk" plus the fact that as the plan currently stands I'm one of the people on RC and I know I'm town means that there's little issue with the plan from my end. If you think any of Flames/Me/Molla are scum and want to change around the

placement

of the saves then state as much but otherwise you shouldn't be having an issue with the plan.

As for why NS is scum:

How notscience wasn't shot is beyond me, there's 1) The fact that his initial post has a quote dragged from the OP that has the statement that Bunkers can't self save 3 lines underneath making his subsequent reaction to learning that look very contrived, there's 2) His reaction towards me scum reading him being him trying to insult me while not actual stating anything on topic and 3) His self-vote which is him as scum trying to shake the attention by throwing a WIFOM-Gambit and 4) Him stating that peoples reads on him are bullshit because they weren't voting him, something that was explained several times as something not plausible to do before he made his comment and afterwards proving he's not actually reading the thread.

For what it's worth growing p confident you're town despite how frustrating it is that you can't grasp how creating a plan and sticking to it is needed.

[Regfan]

First of I don't think Flames not putting himself as A or B is a bad thing at all, had I been the one to allocate the names I'd similarly have left myself of the list simply because adding yourself to the list in that sort of important placement will instantly make everyone doubt the plan and not want to along with it and as town the aim is to create a solid plan that everyone will follow even if it means having to take a slight risk.

Eh, I kind of get where beast is coming from, that overplanning is just giving the scum an easier time of plotting the nightkill, whereas leaving it up in the air could help if the bunker's claim their protections each day.

Leaving it in the air doesn't help because it 1) Creates the potential risk of no one actually being on the lazor, 2) Creates the possibility that everyone ends up on the lazor making any kill elsewhere free and 3) Creates no responsibility re; the saves, scum can easily fake having saved someone that's alive after the kills have gone through and it won't be remotely possible to prove their claims as true or false.

By having a plan in place it means that scum cannot kill certain people without confirming themselves as mafia

, it also means it's impossible for scum to get 3 kills of N1 without confirming one of themselves and if our reads are right (scum being in the scummiest 2) then it's even possible that they might not even be able to get 2 or 1 off without screwing themselves.

You really see that as a valid town reaction? Especially the bit about "Crap, I hope your trolling us"? That doesn't smack you of insincerity? To me, that's just oozing with Clusk trying too hard to be seen as town.

I've had a similar reaction as town in that sort of position in the past so yeah, I do see it as valid (At least the "Hope you're trolling" element of it).

Well, fair point, but as a couple of people have pointed out, apparently this is a popular theme (on a pokemon forum of sorts?) that presumably at least ZZZX and ns have played before at some time. It seems as though the setup can be ran with self-saves and without them, and the strategies necessarily differ depending on things like this. Anyway, if I were a more cynical player, I'd go a step further and say that this is an attempt to punish a player for not reading the rules thoroughly. In any case, I don't think it's as big of a deal as you do as I don't see how a player would be more likely to miss this as scum rather than town. Further, it's comes across as a bit hypocritical that you're such a stickler for ns missing something in his planning of how to use the bunker powers whereas you did not have this same problem with ZZZX.

Think it is a rather big deal, also think scum are significantly more likely to miss is than town are, scum have no need to actually consider strategy of what to do until N1 starts because that's the first time they have to make a decision whereas town have to plan, strategize and lock in their actions D1 (Thus need to be up to date and understand the mechanics of their action). But again the big kicker for me re; this is the fact he quoted from the OP just above where it states this, I think a town players natural reaction when looking at that area (Which he would have had to do to quote this) would have been to read the other points.

Insult you? Hardly. I mean, back this up if you really think this, but I just looked at his ISO again and I saw nothing of the sort. Maybe a bit defensive and pitiful, but nothing I would write home about.

Decredits probably a more accurate word, in #38 he ignored my entire line-of-logic and then at the end of it tried to link it towards him "Shooting first in skype mafia" which was something I specifically said I didn't find scummmy of his.

Okay, this is a bad argument. Do you mean implied WIFOM? Either point out where ns tried to make a WIFOM argument based on him voting himself (or me), or concede this. Because I'll tell you straight up if your argument is that he's "breeding the implication of WIFOM on a subconscious level", then that's ridiculous.

Take a look at Post 84 again, instead of trying to defend himself against any of the accusations or explain any reads he instead self votes and states that he'll be a vengeful, that entire self-vote there is an attempt to make us go down the line of "Would he self-vote as scum" because there's no way he can genuinely have believed that his self-vote would have led towards a lynch (Because we don't lynch, we shoot, then we lynch). Run through me one motivation his self-vote had other than trying to get people to change their reads on him, then explain to me how trying to use a device like that to change reads on you isn't scum motivated.

Your plan sounds as good as any, but how does it change in the event of a town lynch?

I've yet to find a flaw with Flames Post 157.

Reg, I think you're letting ns get under your skin here and it's coloring your reads. I don't know, you seem a little more aggravated than usual.

I don't think I am and if anything my aggravation is more with you than NS.

[Regfan]

RC, my aggravation is mostly due to you coming in here and instantly stating that while you may listen to others the shot will be entirely on your own feelings, it meant that I'm near useless 50% of the time and also ruined a lot of the scumhunting tools I use (Peoples reactions to pressure, partner interactions ect.) by having no one really accountable for their stances taken pre-shot. It's also the fact that you didn't just ignore me on NS but shot a town read of mine. Put yourself in my shoes for a second, come in here, scumhunt, get a few reads I feel good about, wake up and find you've shot a town read of mine, it's a really frustrating feeling.

Aegor, if we have 3 people on the lazor in the case of a town flip that means that scum then have the ability to possibly make 3 night kills without revealing any of themselves which is not what we want to happen at all. At the end of the day I think the gain in taking the risk of the 2 people on the lazor being scum (From an objective perspective the odds of it happening are 2/6 x 1/5 which is 6.67%, then add scumhunting into it and we should never really be losing that way) is worth the gain in having an extra protection in play elsewhere.

As for why I think Flames is town, I checked up on his "Never been mafia" comment and it's true, he never has so the fact that I've been able to follow nearly all of his thought processes and find his pushes and reactions as genuine is a very strong town tell, it's not something I think he can fake as scum.

Oh and Aegor, want your thoughts on other players in the room if you've actually read through the thread.

The thing is, you know you're town. It stands to reason that the best plan would be one where you are in the top tier. I don't care if you're Regfan, Flames, notscience or anyone. The idea of selling the plan doesn't really convince me because that would be something that could be ironed out after it is presented.

You're being kind of silly here, if everyone were to place themselves in the top tier position we'd have 6 (or whatever it is) different lists and the game would be a mess which is the opposite thing we want when making a plan. If having to go down a rung on the order is the cost of creating a cohesive plan then that's something entirely worth doing. Like I said I'd have done the exact same thing as Flames and left myself of the top had I assigned the list.

I find this hard to believe, but if you pull up a post you made in a game in a similar vein of a player being lynched/shot, them reaffirming that they're town, and you whining about it prior to a mod confirmation, I'd be willing to give you more credit.

Will find you one (Or several) when I get back today, know for a fact I've had similar reactions on VS and Westeroes.

And I agree this is a reasonable way of looking at things, but I just don't connect the dots in the same way you are. I don't see what ns had to gain by doing this as scum. I think ZZZX made a similar faux pas in regards to misreading the rules that Flames caught him in. To put it another way, it's too technical.

Don't remember ZZZ mistaking anything re; the rules, thought Flames case on ZZZ was based around miscounting the number of bunkers that would be living at the end of the day in his strategy by not accounting either the shot or the lynch. And again it's not a "gain" that scum get, it's more a case of I think it's a very unnatural thing for town to do whereas I can see scum doing it far more naturally.

Wait, wait, wait. What line-of-logic are you referring to before 38? And when "specifically did you say" that you didn't find his bloodthirsty-ness scummy?

The only reason I see NS as a maybe scum is because of this post (In which he linked Post 12)

Eh, that's not the post that makes me lean scum on him, don't actually think that one is alignment relevant, it's more the phrasing of Post 8 and Post 21 v Post 22.

Admittedly the line-o-logic wasn't deeply explained but it was very clear that I didn't find his bloody-thirsty comment scummy so his attempt to link that to my scum read screams of him trying to de-credit my entire read on him.

This is such a stretch. As I mentioned, he didn't mention WIFOM whatsoever. Again, anti-town, no argument, but not scummy. So you are infact relying on the idea that ns was trying to infer a WIFOM argument on some psychological level. You ask me to give you one motivation of his self-vote that isn't WIFOM? I'll give you three. Trolling, self-defeat and/or lack of respect in the strength of the town and prudence. notscience is not a player I'd refer to as particularly cerebral. I don't know the reasons he does a lot of things he does because he's far more of an emotional player than I am. He does things based on feelings and whims. I think you and I could probably name 50 other players that act in a similar way. This doesn't make them scum, it just makes them harder to read.

Scum self voting to try and get players to alter their reads on them isn't an uncommon strategy so it's not a stretch at all. I'm not buying that he self-voted to "troll" at all, not in the slightest bit nor am I buying that he'd have a self-defeatist attitude that early into a game as town and then throw out reads that are entirely unexplained. Sure, he's not like some other players but he's not a troll, I've read and seen several of his games, he puts in effort and scumhunts, he talks reads, he hasn't this game so you trying to excuse all his actions as "It's NS being NS" is wrong.

[Regfan]

I think Beast is town, I don't have the same feelings re; Aegor. I'd rather flip them.

Also in case it's not obvious still want a NS lynch.

[Regfan]

BB, run through the Aegor town read for me, I actually have him as scum. My PoE right now is (NS + 1 of Clusk/Aegor).

Beast, you're saying "I've seen lots of games where people haven't listen to what they're meant to do and it's been lost N1" and then you're proceeding to say "I might not do what I'm meant to do N1", you realize how stupid that is right? Stop and think, run through the strategy, you state you're skeptical about it; what are your key concerns about it? The placement that's allocated, that who might die N1? Don't just go "plan, bad, skeptical, prefer individual, I'll be a prick that just does my own thing" and instead put into words what about the plan you dislike other than the fact that it's a plan.

Flames, I don't agree with your plan in Post 224. I want Aegor on the bottom tier (I most certainly don't want him on me) and if Beast is going to continue what he's doing I'd rather just put him on RC regardless of the flip since I'm p sure he's town but he'd have to be up there with one Molla/You/Me who will actually follow it.

Want to make this clear, if anyone no protects to "save them" I'll chop your balls off post-game, it's objectively impossible for the game to go to N4 or even N3, 2 deaths D1, 2 deaths D2, 2 deaths D3, that'd be 3 alive N3 being lazor/bunker/scum, scum shoot bunker (Who can't self-save here) and win.

What do you think are the odds of three NKs? I get what you are saying, but I would rather be in lylo tomorrow with one IC than in postgame. But whatever; I am clearly extremely risk-averse.

The odds are low-ish but the point is that by having more protects in play (By having 2 on the LC) we can force scum to shoot the players we find scummy thereby essentially stopping us from wasting mslynches on them. Also "no good reasons" re; Flames is hardly true, I find that being able to follow a players thought process step by step is a one of the strongest town tells there is, it's a really hard think to fake and if he's never been scum before then it's enhanced ten fold.

Also let me get this right in the entire room you only have 1 town read? Don't like that at all, looks like you're keeping options open.

[Regfan]

Flames, my only issue with the plan is if Clusks flps scum it's NS/Beast on RC and I don't know if I trust Beast to actually follow the plan, if he promises he will 100% I'll leave it but otherwise we might need to change that around.

Regfan, if you want an ns lynch, why are you not voting him with one day before deadline? I may have missed that somewhere.

Unvoted him because he got to L-2 before we had a plan or allocations decided on running the risk of a quick lynch and no plan in place, haven't revoted because it's futile to do if RC doesn't change his vote to NS. There's 5 votes in play without RC voting NS scum selfvote and won't have to buss removing their 2 votes as well only leaves 5 votes so I'd have to get literally every other town player to vote against RC, unlikely to occur.

If I had wanted to keep my options open, I would not have specified which players I would be willing to lynch today. And townread means I am very convinced the player is town. Only one player currently satisfies that criterion.

You have kept your options open, 3 for today and 5 for tomorrow. Uh, there's such things as "weak" town reads.

[Regfan]

He also said:

As town I will normally claim to protect the LC Day 1 but yet no protect anyone.

[Regfan]

I'll be getting to this in a few hours, just got home.

[Regfan]

Flames, plans fine but I want a NS lynch (And then jut replace NS with Clusk in the plan) and lynching is hardly policy based.

Molla, still waiting on an explanation re; your Aegor town read, I have him as scum. What are you seeing that I'm not?

Reg you should have no problem not protecting me since you probably want me dead anyway for being stubborn.

I think this one element of not knowing will give scum the scum the chance of getting no kills.

As annoying as I find your stance on plans to be I'm pretty confident you're town, so you're wrong, I don't want you dead and will be sticking to the plan.

Sure, it's not uncommon, but you're the one that's using it as a basis for an alignment argument. No one else has, that I can tell. I don't even know what BB/Flames are thinking (which is bad in the case of BB, if I can be honest).

And, again, ns never used it explicitly, and I think the argument that he was doing it implicitly is no good.

Those examples weren't meant to explain ns' behavior, but just to illustrate my point that a self-vote is not always necessarily a psychological ploy as you are implying.

Strongly disagree, people don't need to state "I wouldn't selfvote as mafia" with or after their selfvote for their selfvote to be a scum strategy and an attempt to try and sway people to change their reads. The timing and context of his selfvote

especially in this particular setup where a vote actually does nothing

which is something I can't stress enough points heavily towards it being scum motivated.

I see your point, but I also sympathize with Aegor. I am having trouble getting townreads in this game as well.

We're reading this game very differently, I'm getting town reads rather easily. Would be shocked if there were scum in Beast/Flames and to a slightly lesser degree BB.

[Regfan]

Calling all friends and people I met on the way down, I'm calling all friends and people I don't even know, I'm calling on high I want to believe there's a way now. I'm too tired to pretend, I don't wanna be alone, I'm calling all friends.

Vote: NS

[Regfan]

RC just explained why Clusk is scum. I'd rather have him lynched than NS.

And I'm still more confident in NS being scum. I'm not convinced re; Clusk. If no one joins me / we don't get enough on NS with a few hours left until the deadline I'll change to Clusk but there's cookies for those that vote NS, chocolate chip ones too.

I say we lynch Clusk today, but tomorrow we should do something about BBmolla. I'm switching up the plan:

Refgan, beast, and Aegor, is the plan above okay?

No. Switch Aegor and BBMolla please, still think Mollas town, think Aegors decently likely scum.

[Regfan]

Regfan looking at your ISO you haven't even given any reasons on why Aegor is scum or why BBmolla is town.

Have explained my scum read on Aegor, the fact that he set himself up to have the ability to push 5 people inside the room for seperate reasoning and only have one town read hen replacing into the thread is something that incredibly scum motivated. Scum in this setup need to be able to change their reads at the drop of a hat to help push through mis-shots and mislynches, minimizing the number of town reads you give out does exactly that. It's also PoE based.

Town read on BBMolla is largely the fact that he saw eye-to-eye with me on both the NS!Scum read and the Flames!Town read at the same time, suggests he's running through the same thought process. Also liked his worry about Beast saving elsewhere and NS!Scum getting a free win. Plus while I've been trying to avoid using it because I've seen it backfire a lot site-wide lately it's also partially meta based, his work on trying to amend, change and find a breakable plan continuously throughout the day reminds me of Town!BBMolla. He's not my strongest town read (Beast/You are) but would be p surprised if he's scum here.

I'll join you on ns Only if you promise to lynch scum-flames after I flip town

1) If you're town you shouldn't want to be self-lynching and you should want to explain your reads (especially if you're as confident as you're claiming to be re; them) 2) You're not flipping town and 3) Flames is never dying, he's town.

[Regfan]

RC also said that he was also having trouble getting townreads like Aegor.

There's a difference in

having difficulties getting town reads

(And RC has at least 2-3 town reads, p sure) and s

tating a comment that's negative about every player in the game other than one person

which is what Aegor did. Think about it for a second; our plan essentially forces scum to shoot ScummyTown at night or not be able to kill because the scummy players are actually scum, that means the following day scum are going to need to push on people that weren't the prior ScummyTown so they need to have lots of options open, that's what Aegors done.

Well any scum could see eye to eye with you just to see town, all he said was "I agree with Flames probably being town and NS probably being scum" which anyone could've said to seem town. Also he does have good strategy talk but doesn't give any reasons for why people are scum or why they are town.

Strength of his town read on you increased when mine did (due to the same posts) and he mentioned it before me so it's not just him "copying my reads". And him "not explaining with lots of reasons" is sadly what BB's like in general but

I do

want his explanation for why Aegors town.

[Regfan]

Look at the reasoning behind your bbmolla townread. Because he sees eye-to-eye regarding your reads on me and flames? Really? How is that town-indicative? How is that not-scum indicative?

Except that's not the whole-reason I think he's town, you've ignored several other factors that influence the read and have ignored the fact that I've admitted he's my

weakest

town read of the bunch. But convince me he's scum, go, because you haven't mentioned much of

why

he's mafia at all.

1) Reread the last few pages. I've shared my thoughts on flame-scum. But, because you're being a tunnelfuck the only way you'll get out of it and stop to consider "hey, maybe my reads are wrong' is if I get lynched and flip town so you can SEE you're off base.

The extent of your reasoning for Flames being mafia is the following quotes:
1)

Gut!

2)

First of all, I think that ns is just acting more stupid than scum at this point. I can do with a Clusk lynch over an ns lynch. In my first game that I played on this site I was kind of like ns but I was town.

cough discredits to attempt not to get shot after my townflip cough

3)

The saddest part of this whole thing is you're giving someone towncred for being your fucking secretary

1) Tells me nothing at all, 2) How is the fact that he's advocating

against

your lynch a scum tell. It's not as you if you're town you getting lynched = him instantly getting shot at all, RC's already stated that his shots are going to be based pretty much solely on how he feels so this point makes no real sense and 3) He's not being town read because he's creating a list (And creating a list is most certainly not a scum tell, it's a necessity to have done) but rather his reads, his scumhunting, his changes of thoughts, all of it is very genuine. So if there's more to your scum read on him elaborate.

[Regfan]

Flames, these in particular were BB's posts that I liked/agreed with:

VOTE: ns

Lets lynch me then

I get to be a vengeful tho

It's jmo and flames/molla

^shoot this.

Flames is obvious town at this point btw

@Flames: jmo looks worse than beast, beast's content is actually content.

I'm uncomfortable with having NS/Beast combo on RC cause tbh I think Beast will fuck it up for us by protecting someone else to spite us and NS-scum will have a free win

[Regfan]

Anyone could've said what BBmolla said in post 91.

Also these are all responses to strategy. He has no other posts that explain why people are scum, he just says they are scum or they are town.

Again, it's about the fact that by #91 (When reading through the thread) I had though the same thing that's relevant. Also the other two aren't "just about strategy", he's stated an opinion inside Jmo/Beast that I agreed entirely with. Similarly thought his worry over Beast fucking us was genuine, why would he be worried about that as mafia? Sure, he didn't explain his reads in detail (he never does sadly) but the only read I really want explained is the Aegor one.

[Regfan]

Eh, I'm starting to have slight doubts on NS.

I'd be up for a blitz-Aegor attempt but not sure if we have the numbers or the time. Might as well give it a go I guess.

Unvote, Vote: Aegor

[Regfan]

I have been sick all day. I will be online in a better mental state tomorrow morning, with plenty of time before deadline.

He has been very active elsewhere since this post and deadlines approaching (5 hours from now) so it's not like he can be putting this game on the back-burner. Looks more like scum not wanting to do much to stop a mslynch going through.

[Regfan]

His entire "catch up here" was this which is just him again continuously spreading suspicion players with lots of openings of where to vote tomorrow.

[Regfan]

Aegor, convince me you're not scum because you turning up 8 minutes after I vote you does nothing to ease my suspicions.

[Regfan]

@Reg: Your case is stupid because it requires the assumption that I am scum for any of the subsequent reasoning to apply. It is completely unverifiable, and unassailable since it is basically an assertion about my motivation that is completely unsubstantiated.

I

am sorry people in this game are scummy. For example, the target of irrational fellatio, BBMolla. If his from-nowhere scumread on me does not bother you, enjoy your own blindness.

But the suggestion that I am scum because my reads

in potentiality

could be used to justify reads with no trajectory is idiotic,

especially when my lack of townreads is increasingly justified, at least from where I stand and given recent posting/behavior/votes.

Re; the bolded; You're essentially saying I can't have a stance on your alignment by trying to work out your motivation because your motivation is unverifiable to me when everything in this game is unverifiable pretty much. I have to work with the information I have and then let that shape my opinion, information I have is that in this setup and with the plan we're using ScummyTownies will be either lazor shot, lynched or forced to be shot by mafia at night, that means scum objectively are going to need to mslynch some of the NotSoScummyTownies very soon, to be able to do that they need to have several openings to push. That means objectively scum will have less town reads in this game and will have more players they comment on disliking, you have exactly that.

Re; the italicized, I never said I liked his explanation (or lack of) of your town read and thus retraction of it but there's still posts of his I like, I can't say the same with you and given the impending deadline I'm not interested in lynching someone I town read in the heat of the moment.

Re; the underlined, this is where I continue to disagree, sure you might not think Mollas town but I find it hard to believe that there's nothing in the thread that makes you

lean

town on some other people even if you dislike a few of their posts.

[Regfan]

Also he randomly says that he doesn't want to lynch Clusk anymore because he thinks it's a mislynch but doesn't say why he thinks it's a mislynch.

I kind of think he is too now and I don't know if I can put it into words other than the tone of his posts didn't read as scum?

[Regfan]

..I don't agree?

Would be really nice if RC turned up inside the next half hour or so.

[Regfan]

And he's not wrong in that lurking is a scum tell (Especially in this game) and that explaining and going into reads and thoughts is the best way to remove a wagon. I just don't exactly agree that this all leads towards Clusk=Scum, would think Clusk as scum would have a partner or at least himself (Scum have daytalk) trying to push the wagon off at this point. Also don't agree that "are you trolling" is a scum-tell to a scum read claiming to be town post-lynch or shot.

[Regfan]

It sadly is looking like Clusk is going to be the only viable lynch come deadline because bar RC coming online we're not going to have the votes to swing elsewhere.

[Regfan]

Yeah, unlikely we see Beast, Clusk or RC again before deadline meaning there's only 5 votes in play. No one will actually

self-hammer

as scum meaning the only plausible lynches are Beast or Clusk and Beasts supertown so a Clusk lynch is inevitable at this point.

Might as well just make sure we secure a lynch rather than risking a NL.

Unvote, Vote: Clusk

That's L-1. Someone is going to have to be responsible for hammering before deadline hits.

Flames, I still think you're wrong re; BB, I think Aegor and NS are scum. Can you requote the most updated plan BTW so everyone knows what to use.

[Regfan]

I could vote BBmolla.

I'm not voting him today so there's definitively not the numbers for it with the AFK's. Can I convince you to vote Aegor though?

Unvote

[Regfan]

Ah cool, we got everyone other than RC. Aegors still plausible again then.

Flames, explain your town rad on Aegor for me then or is this just a "Aegors not scum because X/Y are instead" case?

[Regfan]

Again.. I don't agree?

[Regfan]

I'm here for another hour so I'll give this another go.

Vote: Aegor

[Regfan]

Aegor, you're continuously trying to ignore the point, tell me where you get disagree or get lost from the below:

1. This setup is different to normal setups in that there's 2 town-decided deaths during the day and the night kills are also partially town-decided by way of organising who gets protection and who doesn't. Days are also significantly shorter and at maximum there's only 3 day phases in the game.

2. Scum will need to get a significant amount of town players shot and lynched during a short period of time to win the game, they will also need to make sure that the plan doesn't completely ruin them by having several universally agreed upon townies.

3. Scum are going to have massive difficultly getting a player they stated a strong town read on shot lynched or not protected because explaining a flip on a read like that in such a short period of time will be really hard to explain genuinely.

So taking all the above into account, do you disagree with the statement that in this particular setup scum have more reason to town read less players. And in turn have more reason to state reasons why far more players inside the room

can

be mafia so they have avenues to explore later in the game. If you disagree with it explain to me why, if you don't disagree with it then explain to me why your particular replace in where you state reasoning for pretty much the entire room

potentially

being mafia isn't your actions fitting scums motivation.

Then lynch Clusk. He has contributed nothing, and every reaction post of his comes across as 100% Barbie-levels of fake.

I've read both of his completed games, he was scum in both, he was lynched in both one D1 the other D3(?), his reaction towards getting lynched and his play in general was significantly different to this game. His reaction here actually kind of reads genuine and I don't agree with the conclusions RC's drawn re; his reaction to the dayvig. So, why should I lynch Clusk over scum reads I have elsewhere such as you and NS?

[Regfan]

NS, respond to Post 309.

[Regfan]

If he was lynched twice as was scum, then he probably learned and decided to not react that same way because he would be lynched again.

And his "new reaction" is to do nothing and let himself get lynched? Not really buying it.

[Regfan]

It's to lurk and also have crap posts to seem like he's frustrated/angry town. All of his posts are just OMGUS.

This is ridiculously weak. I'll make you a deal though; if Clusk gets lynched and flips town you vote Aegor (Or NS, depends on the shot and my reads at the time) with me tomorrow. If he gets lynched and flips scum you can have my vote (As long as it doesn't go on Beast). Deal?

[Regfan]

Alternatively 3 more votes on Aegor today would be cool, Clusk said he'd vote anyone so holding him to that, would need 2 more still though.

[Regfan]

No, this is just stupid. So you're saying if someone makes themselves obvscum tomorrow then I still have to vote Aegor. Not gonna happen.

But you're oh so confident that Clusk is mafia so it shouldn't matter to you.

Also if someone is really "obvscum" I'd be voting them and asking you to vote them with me tomorrow.

[Regfan]

I've only got 30 more minutes before I have to go so anyone lurking the thread needs to NOW take a stance; Aegor or Clusk (Aegors the right choice).

[Regfan]

Clusk, if you're actually town a bunch of your quick reads and thoughts on everyone from the top of your head would be really useful.

[Regfan]

Beast, you kind of need to take a stance ASAP. I don't want to leave here without knowing we're going to get a lynch today at least, no lynching would be stupid.

[Regfan]

He doesn't care who he lynches because they aren't scum like he is.

Not really true? Similar sort of thing, that person flipped town.

[Regfan]

It's kind of sad that Beast (If he comes back) is kind of the decider here.

[Regfan]

Clusk hasn't even contributed anything besides saying I'm scum and of course not giving any reason.

I don't think he's mafia and it's looking like we're going to end up playing a game of chicken here.

[Regfan]

NS, if you're actually town answer Post 309 please and also vote Aegor.

[Regfan]

If Clusk flips town:

Regfan + beast on RC
Flames on Refgan, Aegor on beast
NS on whoever, BBmolla on Aegor

If Clusk flips scum

Aegor + beast on RC
BBmolla + NS on each other
Flames + Refgan on each other

If Aegor flips town:

Regfan + beast on RC
Flames on Refgan, Clusk on beast
NS on whoever, BBmolla on Clusk

If Aegor flips scum

Clusk + beast on RC
BBmolla + NS on each other
Flames + Refgan on each other

We stick to one of the four scenarios depending on the lynch/flip.

[Regfan]

NS and Beast one of you guys have to fucking vote, we shouldn't be leaving it down to the last hour to secure a lynch.

[Regfan]

Has BC even posted about anything that isn't strategy? I geniunely can't remember any of his reads

Not a whole lot of reads, no.

[Regfan]

I'm still deciding which lynch I like more.

Then voice whatever thoughts you have on the both of them (Clusk and Aegor) out loud in the thread.

[Regfan]

2. Scum will need to get a significant amount of town players shot and lynched during a short period of time to win the game, they will also need to make sure that the plan doesn't completely ruin them by having several universally agreed upon townies.

Incorrect. BBMolla was as close to a universal townread as this game had before people started listening to reason.

How is this relevant? My point is very simple here; scum need lots of town players shot and lynched over a short time. Scum also can't just shoot "ObvTown players that are town" meaning scum have to shoot scummy players thereby making it harder for them to hide.

3. Scum are going to have massive difficultly getting a player they stated a strong town read on shot lynched or not protected because explaining a flip on a read like that in such a short period of time will be really hard to explain genuinely.

Incorrect. People change reads all the time, as has been clear in this thread.

Scum can't STRONGLY town read someone and then push their lynch 1-2 RL days later, not without having a really good explanation behind it.

So taking all the above into account, do you disagree with the statement that in this particular setup scum have more reason to town read less players.

Disagree strongly. For two reasons: scum have no essential incentive not to townread players, and I see no reason to believe that scum are more likely to do so than town. Posting

at all

is something scum have an incentive to do; that does not make it scummy per se.

If you've read the above points I don't understand how you can even attempt to deny the fact that town reads handed out by scum lock scum into a corner eventually where they have to come up with really good explanations behind why the town reads were wrong or end up caught down the line.

Because your scumreads on other players are based on shit "tells" and your townread on Clusk is based on meta that excuses complete lack of contribution to this game. Which is another way to accomplish what you think scum need to do: achieve flexibility and avoid setting down firm roots.

I have a town read on Clusk largely by tone, not the fact that he hasn't contributed or whatever, I recognise that tone and attitude towards a lynch as something I've seen from several townies

very lately

and it doesn't match what the meta shows of his scum meta so I'm not comfortable with his lynch.

Pedit: Wooooooooooooooooooo

[Regfan]

I have posted reads. JSYK.

I don't know who to vote.

The only reads I remember of yours are you not getting/agreeing with the NS scum read and you reading BB as scum. Was there more, if so what?

And your thoughts on the two (Aegor/Clusk) would be nice.

[Regfan]

Okay I'm heading out now that we have enough to secure a lynch.

Flames/Beast, one of you two have to hammer before deadline.

Also everyone remember to

follow the plans in Post 384.

[Regfan]

Typed this up at night expecting both Beast/Clusk to be shot and flip town:

Okay, here's the plan: RC is shooting today but we are

not lynching

.

Right now it's 1-3-1

, if the shot is mafia then cool we've won but

if the shot is town it turns into 1-2-1

in which case

an incorrect lynch is automatic loss

(Mafia just shoot the remaining bunker) however

by NLing it goes into the night as 1-2-1 where one of two things occur 1) Mafia shoot a bunker and it goes into 1-1-1 which means that we're not lynching in a 33% chance but rather a 50% one OR 2) Mafia no-kill either intentionally, doc save or them not having anyone they can kill, this means we have the shot AND lynch the following day changing it from 33% to 66%.

Additionally we can lock whoever our scum read is at the time into a position where they can't kill if they're scum (Getting the 66% chance of winning) or force scum to shoot them (Removing a scum read and getting 50%) although it does consist of a risk of a loss via bunker protection.

To illustrate lets say right now there's A (LC), B (Bunker #1 claim), C (Bunker #2 claim), D (Bunker #3 claim) and E (Bunker #4 claim)

Lets say A shoots E and they flip town. We can no lynch and have 1) B on A, C on B and D on C with B being our strongest town read and D being our strongest scum read. In this case the only possible death at night would be D and if he's scum then no kill would be possible. OR 2) Alternatively if people find that too risky we can just have B and C on A and D on B with D being being our scum read and B being our town read meaning that the only possible deaths are one of C and D.

If anyones confused at all by this or wants it explained in more detail just ask

, it's important that everyone understands exactly what this is for and how it helps because it's all reliant on people sticking to the plan.

Agreeing on who B/C/D/E are is what's the most important thing to do right now, so I suggest everyone do E: (Persons name that you want shot), D: (Persons name that you think is scum if E isn't) and B: (Person that you are confident is town) and we'll keep a vote count going of these.

[Regfan]

Oh and an apology or at least an admittance that your reads have been woeful so far would be nice RC (Especially since from reading your posts it sounds like you were lurking and watching the thread a lot before the deadline but didn't chime in and it could have led towards a forced lynch on Clusk).

[Regfan]

In case it's not obvious right now I'm at:

E: Notscience

and

D: BBMolla

[Regfan]

Flames in Plan 1 B can't die if C is scum and C can't die if D is scum because it'd lead towards confirmed mafia. It's a more risky plan, yes, but it means 1 correct town read = automatic win from here. Either way we can decide

which

plan we use later during the day, what's important now is peoples thoughts on the placements.

So where's your head at? While you're here also explain to me exactly

what

about Aegors BB case you read as genuine!town please.

[Regfan]

Yeah, I kind of wanted to be the one on RC here actually (My scum game is so weak that from meta alone I'm blatantly obvious town, add in the fact that I spearheaded the Aegor lynch and it's ridiculously obvious that I'm town).

If it's going to be an issue, we should shoot me today. I'd rather not be mislynched in LYLO, so I'd rather just be shot now.

Naw, I'm p convinced that I want a NS shot today; Partially because if I'm right and he's scum then I batted at 100% re; my reads this game and partially because I have difficulty seeing both you and Flames as scum which does leave him, also several mention of NS from Aegor looked distancy.

Oh and

D: Unvote

Don't see these posts from you as scum ever.

[Regfan]

As for Aegor, he was right in saying that BBmolla had a from nowhere read on him.

Yes but how is that something that made him town to you? It's not like anyone suggesting a point that's valid ever is town.

[Regfan]

True, but Clusk wasn't really contributing much either.

Yeah but lack of contribution is far from conclusive evidence that someone is mafia and his reaction towards the lynch was p genuine. What I'm saying is I just don't understand how that post alone of Aegors was enough for you to call him town or rule him out when I was pointing out over and over again that Aegor had stated scum reads on 5 different players in the room in a manner that looked like scum saving options for later (Which is exactly what scum have to do in this setup), just try and walk me through your thought process near deadline where it was 3-3 on each player, why did you not reread Aegor or contemplate voting him?

[Regfan]

Posting content alone isn't a town tell (And while lack of contribution is a scum tell it's not that strong of one to want to lynch someone soley for it), what matters is the motivation behind the content and I kept pointing out that Aegors posts were scum motivated, specifically how many people he set himself up to push. So again, why did you never reread Aegor or consider the case against him? "I wanted to lynch Clusk for not posting much" is not a valid answer.

[Regfan]

/Headdesk. So you're p much saying you ignored a real case because you wanted to lynch a lurker.

B: Regfan
C: BBMolla
D: Flames
E: Notscience

[Regfan]

Same though I think RC just lazor shooting NS ends the game.

[Regfan]

Blah, didn't get a 100% read accuracy. Think it's Flames, Molla makes no sense as scum and Flames defence/lack of push on Aegor makes sense as partner. Either way it'll turn into a mechanical win but yeah, for what it's worth if this was a standard setup I'd be lynching Flames tomorrow.

I'm certainly not going to apologize for my reads, but I will of course admit that they were woeful and pretty much in line with my average town play.

Sure, I was tacitly lurking a bit toward the end, mostly because I was distrustful of your motivations, Reg, and genuinely not liking Clusk's townplay. I wanted Clusk to convince me I was wrong about him, not you.

RC, my problem with you yesterday is that there was a few times where it was really close to a Clusk lynch going through purely because there wasn't the numbers to go elsewhere and it was only due to Beast turning up that the Aegor lynch became viable again. Had he not done so and you continue lurking you'd have

locked

the lynch on Clusk rather than y'know coming only and discussing the Aegor lynch and case with me, I guess I just expected more from you as harsh as that might sound.

Vote: No lynch

Simply put; If I die at night Molla is confirmed mafia, if Molla dies at night Flames is confirmed mafia, expecting no kills to be made (Flames!Scum) and us having the shot and lynch tomorrow to go Flames->Molla (Shouldn't need to go that far though, shot on Flames will end it, would be floored if Mollas scum here).

[Regfan]

RC unless you're positive I'm town (In which case the order is irrelevant) I'd rather you not shoot just yet.

I've been lurking this since day-start waiting for Mollas first post and I don't like Post 465 in the slightest, the only way Scum!Molla can win the game is by getting me mslynched/ or shot and to do that he'd have to try and remove the argument of "Regfans clear because he was the only one on RC and the game didn't end" and to do that he'd have to claim he broke the plan and saved you himself which is exactly what he has done.

[Regfan]

Naw, I want a proper explanation on how you've gone from "I broke the plan because I was paranoid of Regfan being mafia" to "I'm okay being shot as long as Flames is lynched right after me" because it doesn't really mesh at all.

[Regfan]

Not sure I buy the paranoia. Will give this another read over when I get home tonight but I'd rather no shot in the meantime.

[Regfan]

Reg, because I love you and respect you, I'll withhold my shot, but I am pretty convinced as to who I want to shoot today. Did you want me to opine about anything?

Well here's where my heads at right now (Apologies if it sounds like a jumbled mess), found a few of Mollas posts yesterday especially regarding the plan super town largely for the reason that Molla pushing for them puts Molla!Scum into a loss so they don't make sense coming from him, then thought about it overnight as in "How can Scum!Molla win from here" and the answer was that he'd have to come into the day stating he broke the plan so lurked the thread waiting for his post. Figured if he came in with a normal type post (Not-claiming anything) then he was 100% town and if he claimed he broke it then I'd have to give it more thought. The fact he stated he broke it due to "paranoia" yet continues pushing and even suggesting he's happy with his own shot if a Flames lynch followed doesn't sit well with me at all.

Add to that Flames push on Molla actually is starting to look kind of genuine (Like how's Flames!Scum planning on playing this? Even if he wins this battle against Molla how does he then turn around and get me mslynched?) and a few of his posts hold some merit being #1 Mollas unexplained town read on Aegor which turned into a "Not sure what I saw there" statement from him and #2 Mollas reasoning for voting Aegor being that Aegor was "sheeping our reads" when he wasn't and that wasn't even remotely why I found him scummy and Mollas not even remotely attempted to respond to them. Again the one large issue I had/have with Flames is his lack of vote on Aegor when I tried to get him to move there and his reasoning being that he wanted to lynch a lurker over Aegor which is kind of eh.

So yeah, I came into the day thinking it's probably Flames and now am thinking the exact opposite, gun to head right now I'd shoot Molla. If you're pretty convinced on who you want to shoot today run it through me because I'm not 100% convinced yet and I'd like to be before a shot happens.

[Regfan]

Yeah RC, sounds like we're in the same position re; Flames v Molla. As for Aegors post about Flames, he asked me to explain my town read on him, I explained it, his response in Post 215 was

"So...no good reasons; k."

, think it does point against them being partners because he can easily just state that he agrees/sees it if they're partners and let his partner ride away on an incorrect town read scott free. Really the only issue I have Flames/Aegor interaction wise is on Flames end. Another thing interaction wise is that Aegor only reacted towards my vote on him (See Post 329 and Post 399) but didn't comment on Mollas vote/reasoning on him.

Feeling happy enough with a Molla shot now.

[Regfan]

Thanks for the game Marquis, do think the setup is very town sided though; the fact that with plans we can decide scums night kills puts them in shitty endgames.

Aegor, reasoning for your lynch was hardly "bullshit" the sheer manner you stated negative points / suspicion on the entire playerlist is something that's incredibly scum motivated. Also the reasoning for town reading Clusk was largely meta-based, I read his scum games and his reaction to pressure was significantly different.

[Regfan]

Maybe making the bunkers have 2 shots or making them also non-consecutive would help balance it? maybe.

2-shots wouldn't have made a difference, it's incredibly unlikely for it to even got to a N3. Non-Consecutive or 1-Shot (Really the same thing) might work?

[Regfan]

Yeah RC, glad you didn't draw Alien, you'd have been really hard to nail and lynch.

^Specifically, this is flawed. Just because something is theoretically advantageous for scum does not mean that town would not do it. I did a recap post just as I do as town, and did not consciously (or subconsciously, for that matter) alter any of my thought processes to keep my options open.

It was

less

that you had little to no town reads and

more

that you were stating so many scum reads and things that were "scummy", I actually did do a look through your meta before lynching you and generally upon replacing in you focus on a select few players rather than stating that everyone in the room had done something scummy. Really though it was a case of me not finding your reads genuine in the slightest bit.

[Regfan]

Did want to say before I forgot; Props to Flames, thought you played a really good game overall.

[Regfan]

BB, out of curiosity had you managed to get Flames shot did you have any arguments lined up against me for a 1 v 1?