Micro 508: MafiaMafiaNotMafia (Bins' Soup Sucks)

[Parama]

alright here's how this works
#1: any vote for no lynch is tantamount to a scum claim. there is literally no benefit for any group to no lynch today
#2: you damn well better be scumhunting outside of your group because at least one person outside of your group is scum
#3: i can't think of an important #3 right now but 3 is a nice number isn't that right mod?

anyways dragonite is the best of the three dragons here so my group is the one with three townies, any counterarguments to this point?
VOTE: TheIrishPope

[Parama]

ok
anyway as i was saying, everyone better out reads regarding people in other groups to draw connections and/or enhance poe
im town what are you guys

i'm the mafia in our group

wtf do you think everyone is gonna claim, jester?

btw there should never be more than 3 votes total placed at any time until we all decide on lynches

[Parama]

ok
anyway as i was saying, everyone better out reads regarding people in other groups to draw connections and/or enhance poe
im town what are you guys

good enough for me
Edo, why is Lucky mafia
Lucky, why is Edo mafia

[Parama]

wtf i didn't quote that post

is the quote function here still bugged omg

[Parama]

i don't particularly like any of the three tbh

flygon 4 lyfe
one true dragon bro

also theoretically i guess 4 votes and not 3 is fine too but 5 votes is def too many
i'm trying to figure out the best way for votes to be laid out without putting us at risk for a lolhammer, the mathematical maximum is 6 votes (3 votes in two groups, 0 in the third) but that scenario is very unlikely so let's say for the sake of sanity that 6 votes is the theoretical L-1 (and 6 votes total are required to lynch too, so it's not even a safe number either, hence 5 also being a bad number)

so for the sake of my sanity nobody should be voting if there are already 4 votes in play, use hurt or fos or w/e else

[Parama]

rn now of the people who've posted:
Irish's #6 actually does rub me the wrong way and my rvs vote is gonna stick for a bit longer
chamber shooting down scumhunting outside of groups also bothers me but i can see it coming from a town perspective too
i get good vibes from both bins and NM
fluff accusations on page 1 are rly bad, not happy about unicat either
pie is neutral

[Parama]

yeah it's soooo hard to go to the micro subforum and find the thread isn't it

[Parama]

okay, this is the part where you give an argument other than "he's mafia"

[Parama]

Because in his two posts, he hasn't placed a vote.
In Lucky's one post, he also hasn't.

That makes NM twice as anti-town as Lucky. Ergo, he's the scum.
I guess you could say this doesn't make Lucky

not

scum, but considering that NM is, Lucky isn't.

alright so i'm going to ignore you for the rest of the game
i agree that this is just really stupid and not scummy but i actually like stupid less, i'm not allowed to ignore scum anyways

i don't think anyone said anything about a scumslip, pie
why is bins scum?

[Parama]

@pie: "reasons" is not enough
pretty sure pie and pope aren't scum together, though
the phrasing bins pointed out implies that if pie is scum he knows pope is town
but i don't think it confirms pie as scum on its own

hi chamber

edo you are not the one to be asking people to explain their votes, considering that you did not explain your NM vote initially (and the reason you gave is LOL)
watch closely:

chamber, why the vote?

pope, i don't care if you do it every game, but please stop doing it if you do, it's a terrible first impression
and i'm aggressive as literally every alignment i don't know why people think being aggressive is a towntell

[Parama]

i changed my mind being aggressive is a towntell plz keep thinking i can't be scum bcuz i'm aggressive

[Parama]

metaing me is a waste of time anyways, i don't play mafia enough anymore for patterns to show up in the months between my games
aside from the fact that i always play aggressively

[Parama]

i just assumed "its" as in "my playstyle the it"
but you should've used "it's" anyways

[Parama]

i'm sorry if his apparently-meta thing heavily sways my initial read on him, regardless of his alignment

[Parama]

alright, so your intent is to continue voting me but never say why
that's nice

[Parama]

christ you guys are gonna accidentally lynch already omg stop voting

[Parama]

unofficial votecount

Group one!
Rainbow Unicat - Bins
Bins - Pie
InflatablePie

Group two!
TheIrishPope - Parama
Parama - chamber
Chamber

Group Three!
Edosurist - Lucky, Edo
Not_Mafia -
Lucky2U - NM

[Parama]

wow i totally missed in the last group rip

Group Three!
Edosurist - Lucky
Not_Mafia -
Lucky2U - NM, Edo

[Parama]

anyways we can't have any lolhammers quite yet, fortunately, ok, calmly reading now

[Parama]

@lucky - you're scum, apparently. the logic was bad and stupid but why is it scum? who outside of your group is scum?

i pretty much don't like pie's reads at all, so he's town

[Parama]

FoS: Unicat

poe mostly

here's something else we need to not give a damn about today
assume there is one scum in each group, don't try to figure out which group is all three town because there's no use in doing so, we can discuss day 2 which group we think the all-town one is but we need to lynch in that group today regardless
if we flip a scum today, we have one conftown tomorrow, if we flip both scum today, gg, but we're going to be flipping at least one town today no matter what happens

[Parama]

i am reading the zoraster game linked from the queue thread and w o w
1. one scum brings up NL on page 2
2. other scum suggests groups stick to themselves d1

both of these are absolutely awful ideas
and guess what scum still won that game

so yes let me reinforce
1. voting no lynch = scum claim
2. everyone needs to scumhunt outside of their group

what this leads me to is
chamber being opposed to scumhunting outside of groups in his first post looks even worse now

anyways i'm gonna keep reading this game and see if i can pull anymore good setup strategy out of what they did wrong

[Parama]

i actually read that as "tip" as in the word "tip" and was confused
I'm gonna guess you mean irish?
also why

[Parama]

no reason that i can put to words but one of those reads being a dirty lie undercuts it a little anyways

[Parama]

i do agree that edo has been pretty useless thus far fwiw, but i don't agree with your conclusion

[Parama]

hmm i just thought of another strong argument for not trying to figure out which group is all-town today but i can't say anymore until day 2 rolls around

[Parama]

there's no point /today/, yes, i already said as much

[Parama]

btw if there are any other times this setup has been played i'd like to see them and read them, having more than one game to reference will make this easier

[Parama]

No point tomorrow either.

you're incredibly wrong

[Parama]

okay, why is it the better way to play it then, i see absolutely no reason why this is the case

[Parama]

okay, and then you'll have everyone stuck on suspecting the other player in their group day 2, so nothing will get done because nobody has paid attention to anyone else in the game
and it's not like we can't come to a group consensus just because we can only vote among our groups
if you think scumhunting is wasted effort then i don't know why you're here

[Parama]

5 I appreciate this post from Parama because I’ve never played this setup before and it appears that they have, but I’m wondering why they didn’t hold back this information until they could catch someone behaving incorrectly.

i actually haven't, but fortunately reading over the other thread solidified my initial setup thoughts and gave me some J U I C Y as hell information on how to really figure out both town and scum day 2, should we even need to

24 I’m still appreciating the mafia theory from parama because I’d be lost in this setup without it but I’m going to ISO him when I’m done catching up to double check the scumhunting/mafia theory ratio.
--Plotinus

honestly even if i'd been more theory than scumhunting in your ratio, what would've been wrong with that? it's a setup that's a good degree different from a standard mafia, and literally nobody else is trying to exploit it to make scumhunting easier, i'll theory-dump if i feel like it if it gets everyone else on the same page as me

was the “good enough or me” in 17 directed at notmafia since you said you didn’t mean to quote irish pope but i couldn’t figure out who you were talking to then.

in which direction is the irish pope’s meta thing swaying you in 71?

directed at NM
swayed towards scum, because it's a scummy way to start a game

Hmm... Being such a universal scum read, it reminds me of my early mafia days as lynch bait. It's ok.

holy AtE batman, kill this with fire jesus christ

i'm slightly bothered because plot's catchup read is the kind of post i'd make as scum, a lot of it feels like fluff or retreading things other people have said, there's some points there but not many strong conclusions taken from the read
but maybe it's just me since hey at least he's posting content unlike some people

[Parama]

Redcoyote is a pretty good player. I suspect he would have put forward the idea for the same reason I did, it's obviously the better way to play it. Lying about theoretical things is difficult because you need to actually be able to justify yourself concretely.

okay in hindsight holy hell is this disgusting
you go:
1. redcoyote is a good player (which has no relevance here)
2. he put forward the idea for the same reason i did (implying that you are also a good player)
3. "it's obvious" is a blatant lie, because i disagree, as did pretty much every townie in that game
4. if it WAS obvious there's no point in Red saying it in that game and you saying it in this game? surely it would go without saying, right?
5. on that note, what benefit does scum have of putting forth the "better way to play" if it doesn't benefit them in some way? that just suggests that it benefits scum more than it benefits town
6. in this specific post, your "justification" is "it's obvious", which i'm pretty sure is not justifying it concretely

and then your justification in the next post is that scumhunting outside of groups is "wasted effort", pretending that that is something that exists in a mafia game (it doesn't, really, because

it's a game

)

yeah no, you're hiding behind a "good player" curtain to try and defend a really bad way of playing this setup. i feel like you didn't see the other game when you argued against scumhunting between groups, saw it when i brought it up, and then had to retroactively defend your stance so you weren't obvious scum, but the defense is full of holes

UNVOTE:
VOTE: chamber

[Parama]

i don't know if lucky is actually mafia or just really stupid town, but i'm absolutely sure about this. chamber is scum.

[Parama]

Questions for parama:

was the “good enough or me” in 17 directed at notmafia since you said you didn’t mean to quote irish pope but i couldn’t figure out who you were talking to then.

no ur rong bins it's obvious we shouldn't interact with other groopsat all
i shouldnt even be talking with u rn bcuz i'm interacting with other groop

[Parama]

WHAT THE HELL IS YOUR PROBLEM QUOTE FUNCTION

Mod can you just remove all the quotes from that post, none of them are supposed to be there

Wolololololol

[Parama]

okay for whatever reason the normal quote button is acting like multiquote and then since i write my posts in a completely different tab than the one i quote in it's adding all my quotes to the post after because they're still in the multiquote buffer, even though i'm not clicking the multiquote button to begin with? oy vey.

[Parama]

yeah i am super unsettled by rainbow still, but fortunately i townread the other two in the group
and no apologies are gonna be given out, i'm just honest

[Parama]

i do not deny being a dick

[Parama]

what's worthless, what's nitpicky. you're being dismissive instead of arguing against my points, and you try to turn it around and argue that my theory posting is scummy instead?
but you're missing the point. i never said red looked scummy in that game for his theory posting (and nobody else did either, his play was wildly terrible in the second half of day 1 and all of day 2 but that's beside the point). i never said you were scummy simply because you had the same mindset as a scum player in another game. you assert that his theory has nothing to do with him being scum, but with him being competent, using this to imply that you are also competent. your justification is not competent. "it's obvious" is not justification. "competence" is not a shield.
and sure, scum don't lie all the time, but they don't tell the truth all the time either. it's not hard to lie about theory in a new setup where there's no definitive statement on theory, and you can pull together a solid argument to back up your theory whether it's right or wrong, because nothing is black and white.

2 weeks to decide on one player might be pressed if you're deciding between 8 or more players, but you're saying you feel pressed to choose between 2 players in the span of 2 weeks? that seems unreasonable.
though i can understand maybe for you, sure. because guess what? you have done -absolutely zero- scumhunting thus far. you bring up one null point in 8 and try to indirectly say i'm not scumhunting in 67 (which is untrue) and the rest of your posts have been defending your stubborn position to not scumhunt outside of your group.

i honestly feel i'm putting way too much effort in my reply compared to you.

[Parama]

seriously, if you have all this time to sit here and argue with me over theory, wouldn;t that time be better spent looking at other players outside of your group? or even the ones in your group?

btw irish needs to be posting more.

[Parama]

he hasn't posted anywhere else on the site since his last posting window in this thread tho so he's probably just not around but i want to hear more from him regardless.

[Parama]

i'm gonna play along for now, i don't care if chamber is gonna be obstinate about his theory
though i feel that if he actually believed it he'd be scumhunting instead of arguing with me about it
regardless of whether or not you read 2 players or 8, though, you need to start posting some real content

[Parama]

so you're just going to keep being dismissive, alright

[Parama]

I don't think arguing the theory is important so I'm not arguing it.

k if you say so

I don't agree with hunting outside our groups. Getting three informed lynches through is going to be difficult enough without everyone cluttering it up.

Because it doesn't matter. Today all that matters for me is figuring out which of you and pope is more likely to be scum. Effort used on other things is wasted. We'll have waaay more information from other sources by the time that I need to consider other groups. If someone sees something absolutely damning, sure they can say something, but the focus should absolutely be on everyone figuring out their own group.

I feel time pressed to settle on 1 lynch choice in a 2 week period. I don't know how anyone could have enough time to be satisfied with 3. That's what I mean by wasted effort. If you have time to be looking at those other candidates you should be focusing it on the choice you can actually impact instead.

k i f y o u s a y s o

[Parama]

NM, I'm guessing you don't agree with me on chamber, then? why am i wrong, then?
you're actually being a little dismissive too and that's irksome

[Parama]

if you don't think it's important then why bother to argue it with me at all?

[Parama]

for the sake of my sanity can you unvote for now, pie
i'm really uncomfortable with irish basically having the hammer rn, 2 votes on uni and 2 votes on lucky as it stands

[Parama]

o right bisn unvoted nvm carry on

[Parama]

I don't necessarily disagree, I've seen town argue it before in this set-up and there's nothing that particularly hits me as "Chamber doesn't believe this"

yeah i'll give him credit for sticking to his guns whether or not he does believe it, wrong as his theory is, the problem i have is how he's dressing up his arguments and dismissing my own
and from how he's not posting any scumhunting content of his own i have to come to one of two conclusions:
1. he's scum and doesn't have any
2. he's internalizing his reads and not sharing anything with the class

the latter is kinda anti-town, there's no reason to hide your reads imo

anyways pie, my reasoning for chamber is arguably bad, apparently, so argue with me why it's bad.
i'm not letting dismissiveness be the prime theme of this game

[Parama]

I don't necessarily disagree, I've seen town argue it before in this set-up and there's nothing that particularly hits me as "Chamber doesn't believe this"

irish it's because i personally have to decide between you and chamber

and again it doesn't matter which group is the town group because we're lynching in all three groups either way
i'm glad you suspect one of the two people fypov that you should suspect

[Parama]

guess what, i did not mean to quote that post

sigh

[Parama]

The point isn't that I have to suspect one of the two, the point is that it doesn't matter if we're split up in groups, I'll still scumhunt like this was a regular game of mafia. Suspecting one or both of you two is not necessary as I could call you both town, but you and I know that's not true.

alright i guess but you need to treat all three groups as having one scum d1 anyways

your argument seems to boil down to scum doing something in another run of this setup, thus chamber is scum for suggesting those things.

yeah that's my argument if you skim the first post i made, sure
refer back to this:

but you're missing the point. i never said red looked scummy in that game for his theory posting (and nobody else did either, his play was wildly terrible in the second half of day 1 and all of day 2 but that's beside the point). i never said you were scummy simply because you had the same mindset as a scum player in another game. you assert that his theory has nothing to do with him being scum, but with him being competent, using this to imply that you are also competent. your justification is not competent. "it's obvious" is not justification. "competence" is not a shield.
and sure, scum don't lie all the time, but they don't tell the truth all the time either. it's not hard to lie about theory in a new setup where there's no definitive statement on theory, and you can pull together a solid argument to back up your theory whether it's right or wrong, because nothing is black and white.

tho it looks like you already did

and yeah i agree effort =/= town
^do not forget this ever
^EEEEVVVEEEERRR

i have coasted in so many games as scum because i'm almost always capable of putting in effort and people write me off as town for that, it's hilarious

irish, i'd like if you elaborated. i also want chamber to elaborate but i know he's not going to

I actually peg my group for the all town group.

whooosh, that's the sound of any town cred you have plummeting off the edge of a cliff.
justify why you feel this way in your next post.

by the way pie's my strongest townread atm, it could legit go either way between unicat/bins in the first group, i kinda get buddyingfeels from Bins' posting but that might be just paranoia, unicat's posting looks the worst so far in that group

and edo just sank his own ship in the third group so lucky gets a pass for now

[Parama]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bKxGTNwlGL8

[Parama]

elaborate on why Edo is scummier than NM.
elaborate on any/all of your reads. posting something beyond the bare minimum.

[Parama]

declaring your group as the all-town group undercuts any shred of scumhunting you do today, because if you think your group is all town, how are you going to push for a scumlynch?
as well it's buddying to your groupmates, and it's an easy thing to declare without really substantiating it.
declaring your group as the town group when scum also means you can push on the actual all-town group easier bcuz your justification is that your group has no scum, so the other two groups do. and if all three people in one group flip town you can fall back on the "well i thought my group was town so the scum had to be in that group, but i was wrong" excuse pretty easily
and yes i did notice that both scum in the game i read did this too, but i was already figuring it was a scum a scum move to do, especially day 1, even before they both pulled the trigger on it
really declaring any one group as the all-town group d1 is a bad idea but it's the worst when it's your own group. i see literally no town benefit to declaring it even if you believe it, because now i can't take any scumhunting you do seriously, especially if one single post is going to make you go back on that opinion. on the flip side there's a lot of scum benefit for declaring your own group to be the town group.

[Parama]

i do appreciate you keeping your vote on the person you read as scummier in spite of calling both of them town, tho, hmm. if you'd unvoted after the town declaration i'd have had you strung up faster than [insert really fast thing here]

and then plot posted but i really don't have anything to say about that post, except that retelling your life story might not've been necessary

[Parama]

the first paragraph of your story was fine but the other two are really unnecessary

and welcome to the "omg accidental quote" crew

[Parama]

but you and I know that's not true.

Is this you calling parama scum?

or he could be calling himself scum too

i like how your sole contribution is to pop in with "oh hey the other guy who can vote parama might suspect parama now, i should push him on it"
no comments on literally anything else then?

[Parama]

if you read both other players in your group as town, you aren't going to be lynching one of them on suspicion of being scum. because you read them as town. if you do lynch them, it'll be because they're "less town" and not "scum".
buddying on its own isn't inherently scummy, but it's part of the bigger picture here
something is scummy when it primarily benefits scum and rarely if ever benefits town. it's not "when scum, then scummy" it's "scummy, thus scum". the point i was making is how it benefits scum and doesn't benefit town to call your groupmates scummy.
what hasn't been properly elaborated on, i spend all of that post before that line explaining why it's a scummy thing to do.
if you don't understand why announcing a towngroup day 1 is bad when

we're lynching in all three groups anyways so there is literally zero reason to figure out which group is all-town on d1

then i don't know how i'm ever going to make you understand the rest of my argument though

you're being cheeky as hell right now and that's not helping either. you fail to understand a fairly basic premise that i've pretty much spelled out point-for-point, then argue that it's bad simply because "i don't understand it" then you ask me to literally just repeat myself like it's my problem that you're daft.

[Parama]

I'm going to try spelling this out in as simple of terms as humanly possible.

One group does not have any scum, but we have no way of knowing which group this is. This is a fact.
No Lynching in any group means the mafia choose the lynch in that group, guaranteeing a mafia-chosen mislynch. This is a fact.
As the above are true, there is literally zero benefit to no-lynching in a group.
Thus, we are lynching in all three groups today. This can be treated as a fact.

If a group is all-town, then a mislynch in that group is guaranteed.
Declaring a group as all-town implies that a player believes a lynch in that group will result in a mislynch.
How are you going to scumhunt in a group when you believe all three players to be town? How are you going to decide a lynch in the group? If you push someone, while believing they are town, isn't that a contradiction? The only read you can push is "less town" rather than "scum", which is:
1. A much weaker conviction than "scum" if the player is town, and much harder to justify. It's a lot harder to build a case on why someone is "less town" than to build one on why someone is "scum".
2. Incredibly easy to hide behind as scum, since "well I thought they were town anyways but we had to lynch someone" is an easy excuse, and not really a scummy one, more a fairly logical one.

In regards to the other groups it basically gives you a free pass to not scumhunt in that group because "they're all town anyways and I can't vote so I'll let them come to their own conclusions". It distances yourself from the group and their lynch.
If you declare your own group as town, then you're likely to spend less time focusing on your group and more time focusing on the other groups. If you're scum and thus know your own group is not all town, you've just given yourself a free pass to push a lynch between three players you know are all town and not suffer the repercussions.

All three groups should be treated as having one scum in them on Day 1, and therefore claiming a group as all-town is meaningless. You can believe it, sure but announcing it either muddles things up as town or gives you an easy shield as scum.

I probably missed some important point here because I haven't looked at this from every possible angle because I don't want to be here all night but this should be enough to show the general concept of "has no benefit as town, has lots of benefit as scum".

Keep in mind this is SPECIFICALLY for day 1.

[Parama]

hi bins

i actually don't keep reasons for my townreads in the back of my head because there's no point in elaborating on them tbh
i imagine it's becuase i liked his reaction test and his posts have generally good analysis, i can see where he's coming from w/ a town point of view but i don't necessarily agree with him on everything either (bad pie announcing a group as town, bad)

also i need to stop giving a damn about arguing theory because everyone believes their theory is right and thus mine is wrong and it's a massive waste of my time, sigh

[Parama]

even if i read you as town right now i'd want you to be posting more content than you are

[Parama]

thinking it over i get the feeling i'm prob overreacting to something i perceive as potentially really really bad but hasn't actually had any negative results -yet-

not that that makes me dislike it less, but

[Parama]

maaan i'm the opposite, micros are a lot easier to keep track of everything in and skips the floods of walls and crap, 9p games are where it's at yo

[Parama]

i bet you would have a field day doing nothing but replacing into large games

[Parama]

okay that literally does not read like you calling chamber scum tbh

[Parama]

ok good help me mislynch chamber then

[Parama]

1. it was a complete joke post and i didn't actually expect him to vote
2. i'm not actually comfortable with it and you're assuming i am even though i haven't posted since the vote

though in all honesty i'd prefer one of the lucky voters to unvote (NM please?)
but yeah can we not be at L-1

[Parama]

(and yes, i will freely admit that i did see the vote, but didn't post, because i wanted your reaction. i've got that now.)

[Parama]

i suppose i could. i don't really want to, though. i feel like my vote is more confident than anyone else's in the game. someone else should be doing the unvoting.
and my last post before this is pretty much why i didn't post/acknowledge the vote until just now.

[Parama]

is that reeeeally your only contribution after over a day of not posting

[Parama]

though in all honesty i'd prefer one of the lucky voters to unvote (NM please?)
but yeah can we not be at L-1

Why do you prefer it be us? Would it not be the same effect if you were to unvote?

i'm more confident in a chamber lynch than a lucky lynch, personally, and i haven't seen any strong arguments come from either you or NM in favor of the lynch. NM's vote was not justified in his vote post and he's said literally nothing about Lucky since. you've waffled between him being scum and town a few times and your most recent argument against him i don't understand at all.

[Parama]

NM is really starting to piss me off now tbh, it's not about "not being verbose", it's about not posting anything at all

[Parama]

^NO

[Parama]

on one hand i don't think lucky would intentionally suggest himself being lynched as scum, on the other hand that's just plain bad. proper post coming in a minute tho

[Parama]

oh good nm posted
no, we don't lynch hydras on null reads, i'm sorry. i mean, i hate hydras, they can go die etc. but you basically said "because i can't read this player, lynch them". thankfully this isn't your call.
the way you worded your comment on me is strange. if my criticism is

legitimate

then that implies there's no problem with me pointing it out. and i honestly don't see a reason to not point out every bad thing i see, bcuz it generates information and reactions from the player i'm calling out, whether they're town or scum
i'd be okay with you not having anything new on chamber if you had anything old to begin with, the most i've seen is that you don't agree with him re: theory
and your comment on irish is trash. useless trash.

i'm glad i'm not the only one completely confused by edo's 197.
i might be coming to conclusions too soon but here's what i feel like happened. after i made the initial comment about affirming your own group as town = scum, he wanted to backtrack on that opinion as soon as possible instead of having to defend it, so he tried to make a big deal out of nothing, but mostly just failed to because i literally don't see the problem in lucky's post. he used "and anyways i changed my mind" as a defense pretty soon after in 198 and 212 which is in line with this theory, so
oh hey lucky caught that too. alright. i'm liking lucky more now.

considering i'm now unhappy with one of the two wagons at lynch vote right now, i'm gonna
UNVOTE:
until NM or Edo moves their vote to a less sucky place. NM hasn't really defending his stance on Lucky very well and Edo literally has no case against Lucky and having both of them vote someone who's looking better to me each time he posts is really uncomfortable

[Parama]

that's nice, so you have exactly one solid read and the rest are all maaaaaaybe accurate

[Parama]

o

someone remind to read better at 2 AM
or better yet sleep

[Parama]

I think I already admitted that I changed my mind because Parama asked me to explain, and on review, I didn't read you as strongly as I did before.

one quick scan of your iso later:

LIAR. you did not change your mind for that reason. you did not say even the slightest indication of anything similar. you quoted one post, made some confusing accusation, and then never mentioned it again.

[Parama]

i'm ignoring your question because not reading one post correctly isn't scummy, nitwit

[Parama]

chamber is trying oh so hard to nitpick every last thing i do because he hasn't presented any other valid reason for his vote yet. "oh man parama didn't complain about irish putting me at L-1, obv he's 100% okay with a L-1 state" and "oh man parama misread one single post, obv he's scum not reading the game carefully enough"
wow you're right i'm such obvscum

if this is your idea of being a competent player then you need to get off your friggin' high horse, dude.

[Parama]

post 1: sure, i guess i did that, oh man. i did one bad thing. gosh. such scum wow.
post 2: yes, i know you're still playing inherently anti-town by ignoring 75% of the other players but thanks for reminding me

[Parama]

i could prolong your attempt to make a mountain out of a molehill, but i don't feel like entertaining scum.
if literally anyone else in the game expresses interest in your line of questioning then maybe i'll consider it tho.

[Parama]

didn't deflect, 282 is my entire response and 283 is me being annoyed by your lack of substantiation and nitpicking.
the problem is that the honest truth is that it was late at night and i wasn't reading closely, like, at all, so i just though rainbow was posting a reads list. most of my short posts are pretty impulsive.
granted the criticism of the reads list still stands but was just directed at the wrong person since it's a pretty accurate description of NM's post.
i want to know what posts /before/ your vote on me made you think i was scum, because the only things you've commented on about me (except... maybe 67?) all happened after the vote. the way things look from my point of view is that you set down a vote and then looked for reasons to justify it after the fact, instead of having reasons to begin with. maybe you do have some, but it does nobody any good to internalize them and never say them.

[Parama]

i won't argue that maybe it's better for your scumhunting but it's certainly not good for the rest of the town. i've just come to accept that debating theory with you is pointless even if you're wrong tho, learned that lesson already etc.

[Parama]

Rainbow, what's the difference between Lucky's ISO and NM's ISO, then?

[Parama]

irish, can you try taking a stance on something? who's scummier fypov, me or chamber? why aren't you scum? and yes you should analyze NM's posts because I want to see you do /something/

[Parama]

UNVOTE: chamber
I wanted reactions too!
We can move on to day 2 and I'll have the game figured out when flips come.

like holy hell i don't know why i didn't mention it before but everything about this post is disgusting
i don't believe you genuinely wanted reactions, it feels like you used my joke post as an excuse to vote. and even still there was no reason to unvote at that point.
and your comment about day 2 implies an intent to continue being useless on day 1, but day 1 is the most important day of this game by a huge, huge margin

[Parama]

You are scummy because you hyperpost and suspect everyone to be safe in later days. You also like to criticise other people's actions but only if they are not what you would do.

1. what's a hyperpost and why is it scummy
2. i suspect everyone to be safe what? i literally don't understand
3. have you considered that if i see something that goes against my town mindset, i might think it to be scummy? maybe that's why i criticize people. i don't know why that's inherently scummy, yeah i mean it could be but not necessarily has to be.
tho tbh that's not the only kind of thing i'm calling people out for. what specific examples/posts do you have in mind when you make this accusation?

also YOU WERE THE ONE WHO BROUGHT UP ANALYZING NM'S POSTS
and now you're telling me "oh but there'd be no point in doing so"
lazy prick, ffs

I did use it as an excuse to vote. I didn't want to appear scummy by simply putting pressure on chamber without anyone asking me to do so.

...
is this

is this a scumclaim????
putting pressure on someone isn't scummy either l o l
the only problem i had with it was that it put us at L-1 but L-1 isn't even inherently bad either

but yeah town really isn't going to be THIS concerned about people finding their posts scummy. sure, maybe a little concerned, but...

I knew you wanted some reactions from chamber too, so I complied. The unvote was done to prevent you ending the day before I wanted it to end.

me ending the day? there was still no lynch vote in the first group tho.
and i'm so very confused by what you mean with the last bit but whatever

[Parama]

i post a lot in general. i have never seen posting a lot being considered as a scumtell and your reasons why it is a scumtell aren't very solid reasons.
i'm not suspicious of everyone. i have given townreads and i have given scumreads.
i have no reason to not call out any scummy post i see though because /that's how scumhunting works/

i don't care if it was sarcastic, because i asked you in earnest. it's legitimately something you should be doing.

misconstrue is a bad word because it implies they aren't just plain scummy, it implies i'm twisting the meaning.
you -literally- stated that you didn't want to appear scummy. that's a conscious effort. if you weren't concerned about looking scummy, you would've voted chamber of your own accord.
if anything you're the one trying to twist things to make me look scummy, by pretending that i actually twisted things.

L-1 isn't inherently bad but in this game where day 1 is so important i'd rather we take our time to decide a lynch, lolhammers in any other game are totes okay though

there could've but that doesn't mean that i would automatically come in and hammer if there was.

and I mean this "last bit" specifically

My last sentence of the post was supposed to not fit with what I had said, because then I wouldn't have unvoted and would want the day to end faster. I said it so that other players would not be afraid to be more harsh on their reads, as I'm sensing that only our group is being aggressive, while the other two groups are sitting back.

[Parama]

^dismissive

[Parama]

that literally reads to me like "oh crap i don't know how to respond to this, let's just dismiss it as semantics and maybe nobody will notice"

[Parama]

MOD: Prod Lucky and Edo please.

activity in general is pretty sucky in this game right now ugh

[Parama]

you bloody well know i'm gonna call you dismissive when you're, literally, being dismissive

[Parama]

i already asked you to respond simply by posting something to respond to in the first place, stop being a prick

[Parama]

by the way thanks for that interactions post Rainbow, I'm gonna start caring about it D2 but for now i don't feel like looking over all of it

[Parama]

assuming i'm alive D2 that is
or assuming there even is a D2
hint: D1 interactions are going to be important D2 whether we lynch 0 or 1 scum today

[Parama]

i spend all day waiting for reactions and nobody freaking posts, great

[Parama]

do not get in between irish and chamber right now, please. this is exactly why i'm not posting.

[Parama]

NM do you have any comment to make on any other posts since 2 days ago

[Parama]

there's been nothing else in the thread worth mentioning except that i continue to like pie

[Parama]

and that's both pie the dessert food and pie the player
i want some pie now

[Parama]

VOTE: Irish

[Parama]

that is NOT a town post omg

[Parama]

irish, here's the golden question.
why were you intentionally avoiding the thread after an unsubstantiated vote was placed on you?
if you can, SOMEHOW, manage to answer this question in a way that logically makes sense from a town point a view, i might consider you not 100% scum. just maybe.

[Parama]

i'm so pissed that i'm stuck in the group with:
chamber, who never posts his reads or scumhunting and who disagrees with me on pretty much everything theory related on a fundamental level to the point where our playstyles are completely incompatible,
and
irish, who is plain bad regardless of alignment, posts almost nothing of substance and doesn't even pretend he has internalized reads or scumhhunting and is intentionally as uncooperative as possible

why couldn't i be in group 1 with pie and bins
tbh group 3 isn't much better tho

[Parama]

>trying to dismiss me using a worthless buzzword

yeah okay this is dead

[Parama]

i agree that NM should probably be the lynch in the third group, as well. dunno about the first group since i townread all three rn but I can imagine Pie being witty enough to fool my scumdar, and Plot seems competent enough to do the same, Bins is totes town tho like 100% if i'm wrong about this i'll be alive in 3-way lylo with bins and hammer the other guy left who would prob be edo

[Parama]

i can rest easy knowing that i'm 100% dead 2nite if i lynch right in our group tho, there's like no arguing that

p-edit: no.

[Parama]

i have hated practically every one of irish's posts since 253, 342 is just the tipping point

[Parama]

i am gonna be completely honest, i find it entirely possible that irish may be badtown, but he's going to be a colossal distraction for the rest of the game if he's town. i do not want a player like this alive day 2 onwards.
and if he's scum, well, then he's badscum and verydead. i feel this is the more likely outcome but chamber certainly isn't off my radar either.

[Parama]

298 feels really town to me, tbh, i like that post a lot and i can see where chamber's coming from. notice how my tone completely changed in the post responding to it lol

[Parama]

^that actually is AtE lol, omg
you're not hammered and you know you're not hammered so there's literally no reason for you to post that other than AtE

[Parama]

seriously, this is pathetic.
level with me. why aren't you scum? if you're not even going to fight it you're playing against your wincon, regardless of alignment

[Parama]

Edo, comeback and let's lynch nm. We can be friends because he is scum.

if edo wants to lynch NM this post isn't going to convince him to do so, actually the opposite imo

why would you be getting lynched pie

[Parama]

i'm wary but your group is my favorite at the very least, i can't decide whether my group or group 3 is the worst

[Parama]

wow, comparing him to hitler, brutal
i don't think i'm gonna top that

[Parama]

postgame title noms are gonna happen

[Parama]

a lil uncomfortable with edo having the hammer vote in his group, not uncomfortable in the slightest about bins having the hammer in her group

[Parama]

i don't want to say "group 1 is the all-town group" but suffice to say that if a town is lynched in that group today, i won't be rushing to lynch either of the other players in the group day 2

[Parama]

edo 100% needs to switch votes

[Parama]

i'm just waiting for bins to post some juicy stuff myself

[Parama]

welcome back, we've been waiting

we'll never stop waiting

[Parama]

ok i actually don't care anymore now nayways it's cool

[Parama]

i feel like this day is dragging a lot because a lot of people aren't pulling their weight

i have been incredibly displeased with the output of group 3 in general and irish hasn't been any better

[Parama]

Irish and Lucky are both due for prods

for what it's worth

[Parama]

i don't see what's scummy about lucky's latest post, actually i agree with it

i'm scum too ahaha

irish should probably be blacklisted by everyone in the game, regardless of his alignment, because this is just awful play, christ

[Parama]

i think what irks me the most about NM is that he's willing to put in some effort to be defensive but almost no effort at all to be offensive and that's the kind of play that reads scum to me

better than irish refusing to put in any effort either way though

[Parama]

and playing that way results in your ignoring interactions between other players, which are just as important if not more so because there's no inherent bias in your reading of scenarios that don't involve yourself

[Parama]

generally they're not that far separated in a game like mafia

if you don't try hard enough you're not gonna be good, ever

[Parama]

resignation is a nulltell, it's only an indication of bad play

[Parama]

fwiw i do agree with your thoughts on lucky, the decision in your group is hard to make because i don't like any player in the group tho

[Parama]

look at it this way: either you decide who to kill, or the scum pick someone to kill

p. sure the former is the better option 100%

[Parama]

it's like 2 days or so

[Parama]

it's not a hammer, bins isn't voting

at this point i don't know who i'd vote in group 1, my brain tells me unicat but my gut tells me pie. or maybe the other way around. one of those two. ugh.

[Parama]

bins is town

[Parama]

also that would be a -really- bad thing to do since i'm not sold on any lynch but TIP and it'd be lylo tomorrow, but

[Parama]

shut up, you're lurking too

[Parama]

parama wins the award for town random fact spewer, you can't discredit me by calling me a dick over and over

[Parama]

also why are you wasting your time making a case on a player who's already being lynched, ffs

and a quote stripes one too

who even cares at this point.

[Parama]

...

guys, I think lucky is scum... ugh.

[Parama]

god i hate this group.

why would you think calling me town is going to make me happier? you tried to discredit my attack on your activity by calling me a dick, i call you out for it, and then you oh so smugly go "but i called you town, how is that a discredit" like the cheekiest of scums would

[Parama]

i actually wasn't calling you scum in the post where i said you were discredting me, fwiw

and i never said it was a discredit to call me town, because it isn't

you know
full well
what i meant

[Parama]

mafia is not just about what's said, etc
if you read me town, why did you immediately go to accusing me of setting up lynches?

this is stupid i agree but it still makes me feel bad about you, a lot, since i'm actually not arguing semantics at all, but you seem to want to

[Parama]

and there's a difference between calling me a dick in passing and calling me a dick to try and discredit a point i made

[Parama]

i am being a dick, but a correct dick

[Parama]

yeah, there's not really a reason to drag out this day any longer.

tho i wanna say a quick piece first. re: groups. in case i die tonight.

the scum are gonna want to steer discussion outside of their own group more towards the all-town group than the group their partner is in, so i think it would be helpful to figure out which group is generally the most talked about by people not in that group. not that it'd be 100% but i imagine that would make figuring out the all-town group simpler. i sort of noticed that both scum tended towards discussing the all-town group more than their partners' group in the one game i read, though it wasn't like a massive difference iirc, but. helpful to do, i'm sure, and that's why i'mma look harder at that big relational post rainbow made, or someone needs to look harder at it if i'm dead i'unno

[Parama]

you weren't the bad play
well

everyone who decided to not pressure chamber in the slightest after his do-nothing all day 1 is bad

and Bins hammering Pie made her 100% scum in my eyes so it's lucky i died, tho tbh Lucky was like my top townread when I flipped (and Lucky was the only one in the game who was right about like anything but was really bad at posting)

also: Lucky. stop taking things so personally, seriously, it's a freaking game
and irish is blacklisted for playing against his wincon but that should be obv

owell

[Parama]

well actually tbh rainbow was top townread after that dumb "if all three flip town parama is mafia" thing followed by me dying overnight

like wow, ez townread there

the problem was, bins played well and everyone decided to ignore chamber all game, so ofc there was infighting in the all-town group where two of the players were barely playing

[Parama]

yeah I thought Edo was scum after I flipped but like after that Edo just took up where I left off with his posting so

[Parama]

but yeah let's be honest here all three group 1 players were great all game and everyone else sucked, the end

[Parama]

edo didn't suck d2 but he did d1

[Parama]

I highly disliked playing with Parama.

you highly disliked playing this game at all, clearly, from the way you outright gave up when you were under any pressure at all, don't try to blame your garbage play on me