Micro 598: Anime U-Pick Pack A (CRUNCHYROLL WINS!)

[MagnaofIllusion]

Greetings. My prime Mafia time is the opposite of now so I'll be making my first content post in the AM. Luckily Kain flaked soon enough that the thread is completely fresh so I'm working for fresh posts to analyze. See you in about 12 hours ....

[MagnaofIllusion]

So first off – are Androgybee and Kanbei the only Hydras I am dealing with this game? Since the player list doesn’t specifically list components of Hydra slots I need to be sure I’m not missing any.

ZZZX’s ISO to this stage is devoid of any actual content. Every post pretty much revolves around Jean's claimed "Words are dangerous" information.

Jean's ISO is likewise pretty empty.

Shishou’s 82 and 99 are salient.

@Shishou – do you think Rhaz scum as a leading vote-holder would choose to ignore your question since you are already voting him?

M8 your aggressive playstyle must have scared the entire game away because nobody's been posting. I was waiting for something worth the effort to make a post for, but it doesn't look like I'm gonna get anything anytime soon.

I too am waiting for something to happen.

These back-to-back posts are the first thing that my gut says are suspect. Both are from a very passive point of view (“I’m waiting for others to do the work”) which is at odds with a Town perspective. Yes it is early game but even by this point there are things to question … see my comment to Soren below.

Eh, this doesn't feel completely like town Nahdia.

Another suspect post. Do you have evidence you can correctly meta-read Nahdia that you can provide Random? I’d wager you don’t because meta is a highly misused tool here on MS. Link me with games where you’ve shown correct meta analysis of Nahdia if you have them.

Rhazh is town but a bad one. randomidget is scum.

VOTE: randomidget

post 75 is literally pure doubtcasting

-Acct

So is Andro Town in your view then?

im keeping my vote on rhazh, not heard much yet from him that makes me want to stop.

-Kill

Are you not reading the thread? Your other head moved your vote at 80. Are you not utilizing any Hydra QT for communications purposes?

will you rvs?

What impact does Jean’s immediate vote at your request have on your view of her alignment, if any? Because in my read-through you never revisted Jean after this point.

That's a lot of questions to shroud over your horrible vote. I'm keeping my vote on you.

For someone knocking Andro for lack of support for her vote this is reads as grasping for a reason to maintain an RVS vote as non-RVS. Why was the vote on Rhaz bad on its face? At this point in my read-through Rhaz is one of the few players I have seen what I see as suspect posting from.

I see your comment at 86 but it seems to imply that the Rhaz vote is not the one you are calling bad but the Soren vote. If that’s the case why haven’t you addressed Kain’s vote at all? You responded that you wanted Jean to vote but didn’t put the slightest question to why Kain chose to vote you for asking about RVS voting. You find Andro’s vote completely unsupported but Kain’s was just as unsupported and you didn’t make a peep about it. I don’t find that inconsistency to be very logical.

another excellent post which discredits but fails to address anything concrete. and by excellent i mean terrible. i'm town, so tell me, why am i "trying too hard". should i be trying less hard? wtf is ur point m9? could you maybe actually address the fact that i questioned what you were trying to do with 38 or do u just wanna continue to try and brush me off?

hint: brushing me off by saying im scum won't work. u already have 3 people voting u and I am very persistent. ur probably gonna wanna consider a change of strategy here.

~Nahdia

So Andro – if you are scum-reading Rhaz why are you suggesting he change tactics? Would scum read Rhaz suddenly complying with your request make you think he’s less likely to be scum?

this path leads to ruin, young weeb. i am town.

~Nahdia

Another question – you’ve intimated you think Soren was defending Rhaz in a manner that was worth deeper questioning. Do you think there is any chance that Soren is scum? Because this post’s tone is pure “back off Town”.

[MagnaofIllusion]

telling him brushing us off wouldn't work wasn't exactly something we put a large amount of thought into, it was essentially banter. i get that you have the whole "logicbot" schtick going on but don't try to apply that to everyone else. not every single letter of every single post has a conscious reason for existing.

So it was banter for you to say to a scum suspect basically "you can't just ignore my posting ... address this stuff"? Playstyle variance blah blah blah but that reads as an odd choice. Meh.

in the opening stages of the game, we identified Soren and Rhazh as two individual scumreads (though it being the very beginning of the game these were/are ofc highly subject to change as events develop). so yes, we think there's a chance Soren is scum. that last post was just me saying he's wrong, not making a statement/implication as to his alignment. if you want to read into it excessively though;

whether he's town or he's scum, pushing me is probably a really bad idea.

~Nahdia

If they are possible partners Soren is chainsawing pretty hard for Rhazh. This is a Micro game so I wouldn't put that out of the question but I think at this stage if only one of them is scum it is more likely to be Soren. Because his attack on you could just as easily be "Defend the Townie for cred". Yes .. inherent in that analysis is that I have you as a Town read for that to be a believable scenario.

[MagnaofIllusion]

VOTE: Soren

Yes, my slot was already voting him. This is simply to reinforce my opinion that he’s scum. Dodging my questions with a simple “Nope” response to Kanbei at 113 cemented my vote.

Jean and ZZXQ1L are in serious need of content posts stat.

@Kanbei - I see your statement. Are you saying that there exists no Hydra Private QT for communication and coordination between your heads?

Rhazh wasn't the only lead vote-holder at the time since 3 people had 2 votes each. And not answering the question doesn't automatically mean scum, but I rather think of it as an anti-town mindset. It seems he just selectively replies to things 'worth the effort' and perhaps my inquiry isn't considered as such.

Ok that is fair. Do you have any other suspects that moment?

I cna't link Nahdia games bc ongoing, I didn't put too much stock in it.
I think those two are the only hydras.
Not a huge fan of Soren's reaction to Kanbei pressure

So am I to take it that your Andro vote was pure RVS then given you have moved from Andro to the player who has been calling Andro scum?

[MagnaofIllusion]

1. Makes it easier for me to know her stance, how ever little.
2. She is not my focus at the moment.

I don't follow this line of attack because you do not address the problem you have with me calling his vote bad. But rather, why I am not addressing other bad votes. Nor do I see the point you are trying to make from this. Bad play? I'm scum?
Andro is my focal point at the moment, so I don't really look into other players when I focus on one.

Why do you think you should only focus on one player at a time? We know there are going to be more than one scum. Especially given I don’t see your Andro push as going anywhere given her play.

The point I’m trying to understand for you is why you basically ignored Kain’s contentless vote on you but are calling Andro’s vote scummy. I can’t see how you don’t see both as RVS style votes made for information gathering purposes. At least that’s how I read them. So I see it contradictory that you are so worried about one vote but blasse / ignoring another. Inconsistent application of logic to me is a pretty strong scum-tell.

[MagnaofIllusion]

You're just saying the same things again. I'm not interested anymore.

Mainly the repetition is because you’ve failed to directly answer my question in a meaningful way. But if you don’t want to actually engage and defend what I see as a pretty scummy logical disconnect feel free.

basically, Rhazh looks like scum except for with this post, which is towny. dunno if it's enough to break my read on them, now i think about it, since it's not like scum players are just gonna start spouting things they don't believe in to get others lynched.. Rhazh might have said this as either alignment, is what i mean. thoughts?

It’s a pure Null statement. The observation on its face I believe in – in a Micro game scum really don’t benefit from playing the long game as they would with bussing in a Normal or Large sized gain IMO. It’s null because the information about the setup distribution is Mod provided information so he’s not really bringing anything new to the table.

Do you think it is possible one of the two was their buddy and they were trying to save them with the townie involved as collateral saving?

Please clarify – do you think that Rhaz is a buddy to either Soren or Andro and is trying to link those two somehow? I’m not clear what you are saying and I’d like full insight as to where you were going with this.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Soren vs Andro is SvT (which is scum doesn't matter, although it works better with Soren). Kanbei suspects they are buddies. A Real Scourge is worried this will get their buddy lynched so comes in with a soft defense that they aren't bussing, making it less easy for their buddy to be lynched and unavoidably protecting the townie as well.

Ok that's a lot more clear. Thanks.

Since Soren continues to be scum who doesn't even bother with the pretense of trying to scum-hunt or even object to be identified as such I don't see much to add to this thread as it stands now.

More content is definitely needed from Shish and ZZZX. It would be nice to hear something more concrete from Scourge's slot also.

Also Rhaz should probably weigh in on his read on Soren also.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Magnao lets talk. The reason you think I'm scum is because of me calling andro's vote on being bad while kain placed a bad vote but didn't comment on it. Yes?

I already asked you to talk. You said the discussion was boring. What's changed? I mean, I think I've laid out why I find you scummy pretty clearly. Your basis for attacking Andro (who I read as fairly Town) doesn't make logical sense, you've refused to elaborate on why the inconsistencies I'm seeing are not inconsistencies, you aren't looking at anyone but Andro, and you've refused multiple requests for comments from multiple players. What else should we be talking about.

[MagnaofIllusion]

@Magna I honestly don't see why people are scumreading Soren. I don't agree with his scumread on Andro, but I see where he's coming from with that read. Aside from that I don't see anything that strikes me as alignment indicative from him though.

Still scumreading random though. No way in hell is Andro scum. Scum putting themselves out upfront like that this early on is stupid. Hence why I said it's Town trying too hard.

Do me a favor - read through what you just wrote and tell me if you don't immediately see the huge, glaring contradiction. I'll wait ...

[MagnaofIllusion]

MOD – I’ll be V/LA from around 1 today until Monday morning for normal weekend family duties.

He's trying to act all high and mighty over the rest of us to push his reads. It's a show of confidence that I don't see scum doing.

If this is a response to me then I can’t parse a single word of it. Who is trying to act high and mighty and thus not scum? Name help significantly.

To explain why your 152 is so self-contradictory it is scummy since you apparently don’t get it – You are Town reading Soren because you can see where he is coming from on Andro.

And then you turn around an scum-read random for supposedly attacking Andro with the statement “No way in hell Andro is scum”. If Soren is reasonably reading your Town read Andro incorrectly why isn’t it feasible at all for someone else (random) to be doing so to? I find that sort of internal inconsistency to be more likely to come from scum fabricating their reads.

Liked Jeanne in that slot too so I'm relatively confident in that slot being town.

Kanbei feels towny to me though that's tonal and a lot of that can just be personality. He hasn't really done much?

Can you explain your Town-read on Jean’s slot given the bolded in the second quote. Because Jean’s slot did nothing other than a Null information drop so I have a hard time seeing a the Town read on Jean given your caveat on Kanbei.

In your response to Scourge at 169 I see that you basically had assessed a post restriction as the reason Jean was Town.

1. Given Scourage’s comments on Jean mis-reading the role why didn’t you ask for clarification on whether there was actually a post restriction in place?

What changed is that the game is stagnating with me as the leading wagon while I know that I'm town so I want to change the direction of the game.
1. I see it making logical sense.
2. I don't know what inconsistencies you're talking about.
3. I haven't refused multiple request for comments on multiple players. You only identified that I didn't comment on people when I could have commented on them.

1. Of course you do. Scum or Town are both going to say that. But the core of your attack on Andro is that Andro made a horrible vote on Rhaz which was never explained. But it was explained in the original 39 – Andro was responding to a post she felt was an attempt to discredit her slot on Rhaz. Which on page 2ish is a perfectly reasonable level of suspicion to have. Yet you immediately jumped on it and have interpreted everything else in a negative light to support your scum-read on Andro. Thus I don’t see your attack and followup on Andro as making any sense at all.
2. The inconsistency of calling Andro out for a vote that was in substance exactly the same as Kain and not looking at all towards Kain. As I’ve said several times and you’ve never addressed it at all.
3. The third point in reviewing the thread was just you refusing to respond to my questions multiple times. What I remembered as a “Nope” response to Kanbei was simply you saying “I’m not scum with Andro” and not dodging an actual question. So you are obsolved of ignoring requests from other players … just from me.

[MagnaofIllusion]

This is one of the posts from random I see as scummy. He had already put a vote down and the wagon was starting to form when he said this. The problem with his statement is that it only holds up if Scourge+Soren/Andro are the scum team, and he doesn't say anything about why the two are likely the scum team. I feel like he's too eager to hop onto the Soren wagon with this post, and since he already affirmed a Townread on me it would make much more sense for scum to push on this wagon.

This post pings my gut. Continued defense of Soren. Continues to indicated Random is scum. Vote lingers on Kanbei who he hasn't addressed for awhile. I'd consider Rhaz a reasonable scum read also.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Back from weekend V/LA …

Hello all!
I was really hoping that I would get a ninja/assassins anime character as my replace in. No such luck.

But I am sided with the town, so thats good news!

This is so awkward …

Fire Assassin do you have Mafia experience elsewhere or are you an alt?

Every post Soren makes is literally the scummiest thing I've ever fucking seen

Since you aren’t signing your posts which head is this? Because I find Soren scummy how can single word posts like “Develop” be considered “the scummiest thing you’ve ever seen”. I mean at worst it looks like scum apathy but I’ve seen far scummier posts.

In short I want to know if this is Killthestory doing whatever shtick he does or if Accountant made this post.

One thing I don't enjoy is how most of the talk is either out of topic or just discussing buddies etc. We dont even have anyone with any reads yet we are connecting buddies left and right, In fact only a few posts have any real content, Which is worse than not even posting on the long run.

Um whut? No-one has any reads yet as of this post? Did you actually read the thread where there have been numerous scum and Town reads posted from many players?

@Magna I didn't word that post right. I wasn't saying "I'm scumreading Random because townread on Andro". I was just throwing out my reads. The scumread on Random should have been put in its own paragraph, I didn't word that post right.

Ok then re-write your case on Random then. Because all I was seeing from you was “Town reads on Soren for suspecting Andro, scum read on Random for suspecting Andro” which makes my brain hurt.

I haven't seen how either of them play before, but I seriously doubt scum would put themselves forward like that so early. As scum it would make more sense to not draw any unnecessary attention. I would expect a bolder play like that to come from scum later on instead of immediately at the start of the game. Pushing a mislynch would put a lot of unnecessary pressure on him day 2 most likely.

You do know that scum pretty much have to push mislynches all game long and that your read here is simply playstyle based, right? I can point you to any number of players I know who are hyper-aggressive as scum right out of the shoot.

So do you have any reason other than “aggression” that you are personally Town-reading Andro? I have my thoughts but want to hear yours.

[MagnaofIllusion]

hey Fire answer the question - do you have Mafia experience elsewhere or are you an alt?

[MagnaofIllusion]

VOTE: Fire Assassin

lads im not going to do anything other than naked votes until you promise to sheep me blindly

So do you think Fire is scum?

I thought it would be clear.
I killed Androybee (Hope I am spelling that right..)

Exactly why did you chose Andro over Soren again?

Seriously I want an answer that makes any logical sense of the blather I see at 248.

Scourge we're not policy lynching Fire. Fire if you have any other Vigilante type abilities don't decide who to shoot yourself and let the rest of the Town guide you on who to shoot.

So Fire is high Town to you. But you don’t want your number 1 Town read using any abilities they may have without consulting “the Town” which by definition consists of the two scum?

[MagnaofIllusion]

This person should be FoS tomorrow. Heavily.

See this is grandstanding. Because if you really thought this was suspect you FOS / accuse me immediately. Or threaten me with “Assassination” tomorrow. No reason to wait until tomorrow on that front. Nope you aren’t getting out of this discussion.

Why did you kill Andro. Reasons Now.

Judging by that last shot Fire probably has a better chance to hit scum when he isn't the one pointing the gun. Just because someone is Town doesn't mean they're always right, and I'd rather he not shoot someone so painfully obviously Town next time.

Yes I understand this. And to some degree it makes sense. Do you not have any issues with Fire not given word one as to why he made that shot?

what's antitown about voting your own counterwagon, tho?

It’s completely Null. Survivalism is not alignment indicative

That being said the fact that Soren has really done no-scum hunting this day indicates to me he’s by far the better lynch choice. You know, considering his only pressure we have seen from him has been solely on now confirmed Town.

[MagnaofIllusion]

So Fire has basically confirmed Troll status with the whole “You are scummy for asking me to explain myself” stchick. And for having a reads list that lists both Soren and myself as scum partners.

I am sorry I wasn't engaged this game but I have been really busy for the last week.

Also I think sora is at L-1

Yeah your vote has languished all Day long and it’s 24 hours til No Lynch. You need to actually commit to some reads and vote ASAP.

[MagnaofIllusion]

So obviously back from V/LA. I had to ask the Mod something before posting today and by the time I got my response I was not able to post on site. Thus the prod.

Rhaez

I don’t see this vote changing today even if it is decided to No Lynch given this is MYLO. Reasons below –

Well shit. There goes the super easy Town win. Guess I'm just gonna go ahead and say this.

I'm a Cop. I got a guilty result on Magna. Got anything to say for yourself Magna?

You overplayed your hand. I know you are lying scum now because I’m Nagisa Shiota, TvTropes Cop.

I investigated Rhaz last night because he was way too quick to declare multiple players Town (Soren and Fire come to mind) which comes quite easily from scum who knows who isn’t their partners. I got a Null result which I needed to check into due to my role specifics.

I start out as a TvTropes Cop with 1 shot. If we lynch a player I have investigated I earn a second shot overnight. I needed to check with the Mod regarding my result because Null reads as being roleblocked and I needed to be see if that would qualify me for a second shot.

But I’m glad that Rhaz took all the worry out of that process for me.

Fire shoot ZZZX right now.

As explained above this is scummy as hell. Putting another non-Scum kill into the mix automatically makes this a LYLO situation not a MYLO situation. This of course assumes that Fire isn’t Rhaz’s partner and this isn’t Scum Theatre …

Here's the deal. I'm Townreading Scourge right now. Killing ZZZ is gonna make it a million times easier to find scum because he's too inactive to get a good read on. Fire most likely wouldn't random dayvig like that as scum, and a scum dayvig in a 9 player setup would be way too strong. That leaves Kanbei and Magna as suspects assuming ZZZ is shot. If ZZZ is Town we have the scum right there. If ZZZ is scum we can figure it out from there. It's the best move to make at this point.

1. Terrible reason for shooting Z as it surmises that Rhaz isn’t scum and thus the PoE he proposes to set-up is flawed as fuck.
2. Notice the way he tries to absolve the shot made by Fire as “illogical for scum”. Andro was very Town. Rhaz agreed with that before the shot yesterday. Yet why isn’t it a logical shot for Scum Dayvig to take out the very Town Andro? It would be.

so guys, if there's a roleblocker in this game who targeted somebody who was not me, you should very definitely say it.

You are going to need to explain how this makes any sense. Town already has a flipped Roleblocker – Andro. In a 9-player game with a Full Doctor and Bulletproof Towns combined with a Town Limited Roleblocker and my role there is no way there is another Town blocking role.

Alright, we haven't already lost which means we most likely have two scum as of right now.

Which head made this statement? I absolutely need to know.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Crap forgot my Vote Tag -

VOTE: Rhaz

[MagnaofIllusion]

My next step is to go back and re-read Fire / Kanbei / Scourge to see who makes sense as a partner via interactions.

Z is so unlikely to be scum with Rhaz I'm writing it off. It would be a gamble even if Rhaz thought Fire was a Town Dayvig with a shot left to push shooting Z over me since I was Fire's number 1 suspect.

Fire makes tons of sense given the super quick Town read Rhaz-scum drew on him and his multiple attempts to explain away how scummy Fire's shot was as not making sense in the set-up. With a full Bulletproof who could absorb a Dayshot from Fire (whose flavor of Shot is not one of Soren's weaknesses) and Town has some pretty strong roles to offset the power of a Dayvig. The one thing I'm unsure on is their interactions today. It could be simple Scum Theatre they would have worked up overnight but I'm not sold on it currently.

Kan I really need to read in depth. The Hydra Dissonance has persisted despite multiple suggestions from myself and others to alleviate it. Could be a smoke-screen to allow them to float as needed with however the Town perception is headed (re the mixed Rhaz is Scum / Town messages we have seen today). Has called Rhaz scum multiple times but never really pushed to make his lynch viable to my memory.

Scourge I think is the farthest shot if only for the post at the top of this page. Scum partners with Rhaz would have no reason to dissuade the fake-claim quicklynch attempt. But a re-read is in order anyway.

[MagnaofIllusion]

i'm going to look over everything. then we should probably massclaim. if you guys think we shouldn't, say why. i'm pretty good at overlooking things, as Magna just pointed out lmao

I’ve already claimed my full role and supposedly Fire Assassin has to. This is MYLO so I don’t see why not. I’d like to get everyone’s claim on the record for reasons I comment on below.

Personally I want Rhaz first and Z last and the rest I don’t care about re: order.

how would a townie have reacted? im pretty sure they would have called you scum too for lying.

Read his answer carefully. He admits that his gambit would get the same reaction regardless of alignment but tries to slice it with the nice soft fluff of “Looks like he’s puffing his chest” as opposed to anything concrete.

So Magna. If you checked me last night and got a null result, then how come you didn't visit me last night? I'm not a Cop, I'm a combination Watcher+Tracker that wanted to see how you reacted to my accusation. I figured you would be attacked last night, but I got no results from my ability. The Cop claim was to gauge his reaction.

Oh, so now you are a Combo Watcher / Tracker who also from later posts I glean is also a Name-Cop and you just made up the previous as a gambit. Uh huh.

The obvious answer is you are Roleblocking scum who is fake-claiming once again. Duh.

I've thought about Magna's reaction to my fake claim, and there's only one possible way he can be Town. I would have had to have been roleblocked last night. I'll admit I slipped that I was a powerful PR intentionally, but his claim doesn't add up.

1 shot Cop who can't detect Town and gains uses when it lynches someone it investigated doesn't feel as strong as some of the other roles in this game.

See – this is a perfect example of scum in trying to shoe-horn the situation into their personal narrative.
Firstly the bolded is clearly false. I get results of player is TvTrope or not TvTrope. Inherent in that assessment is that if I get a not TvTropes result that player is Town. The second part of the bolded also shows he’s not approaching the game from a Town mentality. Town already has a Full Doctor, Full Bulletproof and Limited Roleblocker. How much power is reasonable to expect in a 9 player game for Town with only 2 scum? Not nearly enough to justify his second claimed role of “Tracker plus Watcher plus Name-Cop”. Especially if you are to believe his stance that Town also had a 1-Shot Dayvig.

To explain the point further – my role fits much more logically into the set-up as we know it. Andro was a 2-shot Roleblocker with restrictions (only able to use it in Twilight). Even the full BP had a downside (albeit one that I can’t see ever coming into play in a small game). Yet his role is exceedingly powerful even in a full Mini game (12 players) with no claimed restrictions or limitations.

The random kill was what struck me as odd. Why attack a really easy mislynch and not Magna? I sure as hell would have killed Magna last night if I were scum

And now you just stepped in it trying to WIFOM the kill. Because if you had accidently claimed a strong role as you claim you should have been the shot last night. But instead Random got shot. Let’s take a quick run through Random’s ISO.

Town: Magna, Kanbei, androgybee
Null town: A Real Scourge
Null: Shisou
Scum: Soren, Rhaz

It could happen
UNVOTE:
VOTE: Rhazh

If you were so “Townread” as you were saying then why did Random who only moved his vote from you to Soren (his other scum-read) get shot?

My NK analysis was pretty spot on that Random was going to die, for being more townread (at least by who I assume are town players). Scum likely were trying to throw shade on him.

randomidget

(1): A Real Scourge

randomidget

(1): A Real Scourge

randomidget (2): Soren, RhazhBash

randomidget (2): Soren, RhazhBash

randomidget (2): RhazhBash, Soren

randomidget (3): RhazhBash, Soren, A Real Scourge

So which one is the scum throwing shade on Random – is it Rhaz or Scourge? Because we know Soren was Town? I eagerly await your response.

I don't know why, but I believe everything Rhazh has claimed. Even though this is MYLO so this is best time for scum to play gambits, this seems like legit town play. By legit, I mean its so bad scum aren't going to be this damn risky with it. Claim cop guilty on someone to see how they react then change your claim to what your 'real' role is? Yeah, I don't think scum would do that.

Yeah, totally his partner – every bit of his reasoning here says “Oh, this is absolutely what I would expect from scum (in Rhaz’s play)” yet the result is “Rhaz is 100% Town”.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Let's assume I'm scum for a second.

I'm pushing on random like crazy trying to mislynch him, because he isn't making it too difficult. That night, I realize it's MyLo the next day. I decide that instead of making the easy mislynch on random, I'll just kill him and incriminate myself for how hard I was pushing him.

See the problem? If I were scum I wouldn't kill random and pull a crazy gambit. Scum are already in a really good position, so they just need to go for the easiest mislynch to win. Don't even try to bring up WIFOM between option A and option B, because if option A is a nearly guaranteed win I don't need to gambit for option B. It just doesn't make any sense for scum RhazhBash to kill random at night.

We can assume it for any length of time because ... you are scum. But that being said ...

You set up a set of circumstances that aren't actually factual and then use them to try and wiggle out from the scrutiny that I've put you under.

The first line is inaccurate - he wasn't in any significant danger of lynch. The vote-counts support this as does your supposed Town read (and likely partner) Fire Assassin's stance today. The second line is also not accurate - scum put themselves in the best position to win. That isn't by easiest mislynch by any means. It's by making the next day as easy as possible for them. Who was your biggest detractor yesterday? I'd say it is pretty close race between Random and Kan. I indicated some suspicion but was not nearly as vocal as the other two. So from your standpoint taking out one of them would make today the smoothest.

Turn that logic right around on its head - why would I kill Random at Night? It certainly wouldn't serve my interests if he was as easy a mislynch as you say. And I was in his solid Town reads. In fact that's the only reason I see Fire alive if he isn't scum with you - you were solidly Town in his book and he is strongly Anti-Me. I as scum would have killed someone who was a harder target and made my day easier. But that's not how things worked out, did it? It worked out to make your day as easy as reasonably feasible. And I supposedly left the person who clearly had me as a top scum-pick alive to potentially dayvig me.

I see you have avoided responding to the other salient points I made - that your claim doesn't fit well with either the known set-up or in any 9 person set-up as a whole or that your attempt to claim I wasn't able to discern Town from scum roles was false.

Everyone else should note that also.

[MagnaofIllusion]

@Fire

– Why are you ducking answering the question of which of Rhaz or Scourge you claimed was scum lobbing shade at obvous Town Random? Is it because you don’t want to alienate Scourge in hopes of getting your game-sealing mislynch or possibly having to bus your partner Rhaz?

Hold up are you seriously scumreading Fire? There's no possible way Fire can be scum. He's a confirmed dayvig, and there's no way scum would have a role that puts Town in MyLo D2.

And this is why I know you are scum but can’t be 100% positive Fire is your partner. You as Town should not have a full picture of the set-up and thus have doubts. For example – there are already several Town flipped roles that could prevent Day 2 MYLO with a Dayvig. Soren would not have died to the Dayvig attempt. Random could have prevented the Nightkill. So a scum Dayvig would be powerful but not 100% out of the question. Especially if you were actually Town with the Role you claimed – scum would have to be incredibly powerful to offset Full BP / Full Doctor / Whatever you want to call your Frankenstien fake-claim much less adding on a Town Dayvig on top of it.

But you don’t even blink an eye. Z did and it is one of the reasons I have him Town read before your start of Day stunt. So either you are scum who know Fire is Town and thus already have him slotted as such or Fire is your partner thus you have an invested reason to immediately give him an 100% pass.

If scum would want to make the next day as easy as possible, then why would they jump forward and gambit like that, potentially costing them all their Towncred? Getting random out of the picture doesn't help me, because his case against me was proven wrong once both Andro and Soren flipped Town.

Fire not dying is probably either from Mafia calling his bluff or from them not seeing the player as a threat.

The first sentence is interesting – it assumes you as scum play perfectly. I don’t know why you pulled the supposed Gambit you did. Clearly we’ve already discussed that you couldn’t have a reasonable expectation of any reaction from me would be alignment indicative. So perhaps you were hoping no-one would counter-claim and you’d cruise with your fake-claimed Cop result? You tell me why you made a play that had no Pro-Town results if you were Town.

Are you really trying to float that Random was going to be less suspicious of you today with Soren’s flip. Clearly you pushed on him, the Town Doctor, for poorly explained reasons.

The bolded is very important for everyone to note – you’ve basically admitted that It makes no sense for me as scum to have left hypothetical Town Fire alive. Now I think Fire stands a very reasonable chance of being your partner and that explains his lack of targeting at Night. But even if I’m wrong you are reinforcing the best reason he wasn’t – you had buddied up hard to him and didn’t think there was any chance he’d shoot you today given his scum read on me.

My claim I'll agree with you on. When I saw this role PM I had to reread it like 3 times because it's way too strong for a 9 player setup and I didn't believe what I had.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Derp derp I forgot to vote.

VOTE: Magna

Further evidence you don't actually believe I'm scum - you forgot to vote the player who you are absolutely sure is scum until well after you have been called out.

[MagnaofIllusion]

EBWOP - missed copying my response to this.

My claim I'll agree with you on. When I saw this role PM I had to reread it like 3 times because it's way too strong for a 9 player setup and I didn't believe what I had.

Glad you admit that your role makes no sense in this game and is a fake-claim. Strengthens my point on your 100% Town read on Fire being either made up or on a partner.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Greetings!

I'm lazy at heart - someone give me a synopsis.

Day 1 we lynched Soren who didn’t even bother to claim hen at L-1 despite deadline coming in quickly. Fire Dayvigged one of the Towniest slots.

Really that’s the crux of what you missed. Not that 15 pages is outside your reread abilities.

Personally I want you to read through it yourself anyway.

See this is exactly how a scum would frame a question.

See this is exactly how scum caught throwing BS around would respond when called on it.

I’m not kidding. You claimed that scum was throwing shade on obv-Town Random Day 1. I’ve shown the players who were throwing that shade and requested you identify which of them it is. Instead we get this dodge attempt.

So did you not really believe what you were saying re: Random?

[MagnaofIllusion]

MOD I will be V/LA from 5pm EDT today until Monday for my normal family weekend duties.

Why is Rhaz scummy?

Read his Day 1. He's very light on scum-hunting - the strongest push you could characterize would be Random and even then he doesn't really push it. Meanwhile he's content to call Soren (and later Fire) Town very quickly but in Soren's case doesn't bother to do much to try and dissuade the lynch on him. It's like "Yeah, he's Town. Meh, I kinda think Random's scum and I'll vote that way but don't expect me to really put in the effort to stand behind either stance". And his immediate "Fire is Confirmed Town" stance Day 1given his now claimed Role doesn't mesh at all, especially given the flips we have seen.

Pretty much when Soren flipped Town I PMed the Mod with my investigation on him.

You can read through our exchange today but those points to me are just confirmation.

@Magna - any clarification about that roleblock question yet?

I got it before I posted today. All I could get confirmed is that No Result meant my investigation did not go through. No positive or negative confirmation whether, for example, an Ascetic being investigation immune would still mean I targeted Rhaz for purposes of getting a second Cop shot.

[MagnaofIllusion]

So, functionally, you could both be telling the truth but only if a RBer had a ninja modifier.

Would you support us questing for a RBer claim? With both of you claiming powerful investigative roles, I would tend to presume that anyone who prevented your shot, if town, would aid town by claiming as such, and thus allowing us to snag assured scum, and, vice versa, yeah?

Well we were already in the process of mass-claiming when you replaced in so yes of course I approve.

Claims so far -

Rhaz - Combined Watcher / Tracker or Role Name Cop. No Limits mentioned.
Me - TvTropes Cop - 1 shot with possibility of additional shots (but for practical purpose basically only 1 more I think)
Fire

Bringer

Assassin - 1 Shot Dayvig
Kanb - Poison Antidote (Fruit Vendor)

We already have flips on Full Bulletproff with possible Game-Ending clause, 2 Shot Role-blocker in Twilight and Full Doctor.

That just leaves your claim and for Scourge to officially claim his role in full.

Reviewing the claims reminds me -

Im soma yukihira the poison master, I grant a poison antidote to 1 person a night(basically fruit vendor)

Kanbei why did you not claim who you vended to last Night?

[MagnaofIllusion]

Oh, and I already stated I want Scourge full claiming before you. This is due to my read on Rhaz and the fact you don't make any sense as partners given the start of today.

[MagnaofIllusion]

@Magna - I presume you're standing by your claim of straight Null from the Mod?

Yup.

[MagnaofIllusion]

That returns us to a strongly likely situation where one of you is a filthy liar, natch.
Okay, let's get Scourge in here to claim.

Yeah I didn't think we had left that situation. Someone fire up the Scourge Signal!

[MagnaofIllusion]

Why do you think scum Rahz fakeclaimed to bag and tag you? That would tend to sort of leave him dead tomorrow by definition, yeah? What's the gain for scum there?

Well it is MYLO ... a mislynch and barring some sort of blocking or protective role (and I doubt the second given the two already dead) and that would seal the deal on the game

[MagnaofIllusion]

Back for V/LA –

This game is super dead, it's so dead it's confusing me elsewhere.
Live, game, live!

I think this is function of me being V/LA, Rhaz trying to lurk out the pressure and both Scourge and Kanbei being no where to be seen.

@MOD – I know you said Scourge was V/LA but Kanbei still hasn’t posted. Is that slot being replaced?

I want positive confirmation of who Kanbei vendored to.

[MagnaofIllusion]

The mod didn't include who Kanbei targeted in the replacement role PM, so I'm waiting on Tatsuya to get back to me to confirm this, but if so, then yeah, Rhaz would be confirmed scum.

Yes I want to see this info ASAP.

Rhaz has claimed tracker/watcher hybrid.

Correction – Rhaz has claimed a Watcher/Tracker hybrid and a Role Name Cop.

My intuition is telling me Rhaz is the truthful one.
Can't go into it more, maybe if I analyzed it to higher level. I trust my intuition on this. Much better than I do your case making, or Rangers ability to read motivations of players.

Does your intuition come in the form of a QT with Rhaz perchance?

Yeah, now that I have your attention you STILL are ducking answering who was the scum throwing shade on your confirmed Town read Random that I’ve asked you multiple times.

Why can’t you simply answer the question if you are Town and honestly posted what you did at 371?

[MagnaofIllusion]

Yeah, now that I have your attention you STILL are ducking answering who was the scum throwing shade on your confirmed Town read Random that I’ve asked you multiple times.

Why can’t you simply answer the question if you are Town and honestly posted what you did at 371?

Fire is shouldn't be hard to answer if you weren't scum ...

[MagnaofIllusion]

There is literally no question here.

See now you are trolling. Have to be. Because you managed to specifically exclude the question you know I am asking in your quote of 451. Do you get off on being cheeky scum?

The question is the one I have asking and you have been dodging for eternity - who were the scum "throwing shade" on Random Day 1 that you claimed in 371?

I know you will continue to not answer as it betrays that you weren't making statements that were actually for scum-hunting purposes. I'm more than happy about the repetition because everyone not-Scum needs to see you dodging it over and over and over again.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Yes I want to see this info ASAP.

The mod got back to me; apparently, Kanbei targeted you.

Yeah but I didn't get any poison antidote fruit vendorish kinda thing last Night.

[MagnaofIllusion]

@Mod - since we're in the middle of a massclaim and are specifically waiting on one of the lurk slots to claim in order to do "anything at all" could you at least hand us a freeze on the countdown till we get that replacement? The game slog at the moment clearly has nothing to do with the active playerset.

+1.

Oh, wait, I get it, the Watcher said he didn't see the target.

So basically MoI was either jailed (alien variety - because of derp new lingo) or Rhaz is lying.

Sexy.

Yeah at this stage I’m thinking it is both I got jailed and Rhaz is lying. The only way Rhaz-scum can be assured I didn’t actually do anything to screw up his fake-claim of me taking no Night action is for he or his partner to have Jailkept me.

But I want Ranger to commit for certain he targeted me last Night and that I should have received a fruit vendor type result.

I wasn't ducking, but I can see how that is viewed from a certain point of view.

I wasn’t ducking I was just not answering the question because I couldn’t in any way that didn’t make me look like scum …

[MagnaofIllusion]

@Thor

– I understand why you did what you did re: Virtue but did you seriously think it would work?

I suppose I need to go and look at how well regarded Rhaz was after Day 1, but I will admit my skin crawls that MoI claimed second and, lulz, also investigated the person he's counterclaiming.

You absolutely do need to go back and read Day 1 again. I think it is important to see Rhaz’s play regarding Random and my general attitude to Rhaz.

Here’s my response to 486 – whut? Given every single bit of the analysis is only valid if fromVirtue's perspective (aka not considering herself as possible scum) I’m not sure why Virtue’s post should make any sense to those not her. Fire makes perfect sense as a scum partner to Virtue and in fact given Thor’s Bodyguard claim the inclusion of a 1Shot Scum Dayvig is very, very reasonable. And Virtue even agrees giving Scum an added kill ability is reasonable ... just not from a perspective of the Bulletproof / Doctor / Bodyguard perspective which is the perspective that makes sense.

[MagnaofIllusion]

I don't believe anyone has claimed a role that interacts with the poison like mine does.

So here's my question - can do you consider your role to be possibly a functional VT disguised role?

I ask because we have had zero flips that indicate a VT role. And now that the full-claim is done no-one has claimed VT or a role that Poisons.

So either there is a scum Poisoner out there or your role is a flowery VT meant to look not like a VT to you.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Isn't the fruit vendor the poisoner?

Um that wasn't my read of Kanbei / Ranger's claim. I read that as "I give out Poison Antidote" which is different than Poison my book. Given this response by you however I need to check my understanding.

[MagnaofIllusion]

MOD – I will be V/LA for weekend family duties from 5pm EDT today until Monday morning.

With deadline approaching while I am V/LA I’ll say my final piece on Virtue here. I think she’s scum and have thought pretty much since Soren flipped Town Day 1. Rhaz was too quick to give Town reads with little reason (or incredibly poor Set-up spec reasons), didn’t do any scum-hunting Day 1, and came supposedly wanting Thor’s slot shot for PoE reasons while claiming he was 95% sure I was guilty. Add is her claim (Hybrid Tracker / Watcher and Role Name Cop with no restrictions) doesn’t make any sense in the set-up as we know it and I’m satisfied with her being the lynch today.

But to further show why that slot is scum – look at all Virtue’s posts since replacing in. Look at all the time she calls me scum and then look for the scum-hunting that accompanies it. You’ll be looking for awhile because there is none. She’s not pointing to posts that show scum play or scum intent. None. Instead she’s throwing around convoluted team analysis and just basically leaning on Appeal to Repitition – I’m scum because she says I am. She’s hoping by volume of stating the same thing over and over she’ll convince you despite her lack of any actual points that support her claim.

It’s Fate-lite style “Yell often enough and you can get people to agree with you just so you shut up no matter how bad your stance is”.

If she’s the lynch today my plan is to confirm that I get a second Cop shot with the Mod and scan one of Fire / Dwee if I do. If I’m the lynch today then the game is basically over so I don’t have to worry about pointing out who to go after tomorrow.

@MoI - who is Virtue's/Rhaz's partner? I don't think I've seen you sound off on this yet, and that feels like something you'd normally have outlined a massive case on already while pronouncing your brilliance to the thread at large. Yet I seem to have nothing.

Did you ever go back and read before your replace in? I ask because I’ve already said who I think is Virtue’s partner. But I’ll summarize my thought process.

I’m 95% sure that Fire is Virtue’s partner. Ok … maybe only 85% percent after Dwee’s “MoI claimed to be a TvTrope” case that at my most charitable I can call non-sensical. But back to my reasoning –

Rhaz’s immediate call for your slot to be shot simply to help PoE regardless of his claim I was scum clears your slot immediately at the start of the Day. Because no circumstance under which this takes place reasonable leads to your slot as scum. If Rhaz is partners with Fire (as I suspect) then this is basically scum theatre (which is odd but not out of the question) and you are clear. If Fire somehow is not Rhaz’s partner then even if Rhaz-scum had assumed Fire was 1-shot it is an incredibly risky play to prompt a shot on your own partner without assurances their isn’t an investigation role floating around to derail the bussing that went on.

I’ve already said that a 1Shot Dayvig isn’t necessarily Town aligned at all even in a Micro game and I stand by that. Especially in the strong Town power-role set-up we have. Full Bulletproof with a downside that realistically never comes to fruition. Town Limited Shot Twilight Roleblocker / Neighborizor. Town Full Doctor. You have a Bodyguard role. I am a Limited Shot Cop. That is a pretty potent combination even when not considering the other claimed roles. No reason scum can’t be given a 1-Shot Dayvig to circumvent some of the layers of defensive roles if they absolutely need to kill an investigation role when they can’t be protected (or kill a troublesome claimed defensive role).

I began to suspect Fire when he would not explain his reasoning for Daykilling Andro (who was very Town) over Soren Day 1. I asked him multiple times and his response was either to ignore it (like he did when I asked him to support his statement that Random was being attacked by Scum Day 1) or FOS me. The staunch defense of everything Rhaz did /said at the start of today combined with his refusal to answer my questions more or less sealed it for me. Read through their interactions before you replace in – everything Rhaz does Fire agrees with without fail. He immediately clears Rhaz as Town because “Scum wouldn’t fake-claim a Cop at MYLO and then claim on over-powered role in response to a counter-claim”. All his reasons are basically “gut” but he immediately doubtcasts on Dwee at 524 when Dwlee’s reason’s for suspecting Virtue is gut. Look at that post and note how he quotes “gut” in a manner to suggest Dwlee is scummy.

But this to me is the clincher -

lol I totally missed Magna claiming to be a TvTrope. LOL, fail.

Fire Assassin is Firebringer Thor. You cannot tell me that Town Firebringer doesn’t know that a Cop that investigates a set alignment isn’t a pretty common occurance here on MS. Yet he’s purposefully mis-reading it in a way to sell my lynch.

Ranger I don’t see as scum because that slot has no reason as scum to say they vendored to me only to get rejected. Futhermore Ranger as scum partner with Virtue has no reason to bus Virtue when Fire has already committed to my wagon. She could have hopped right over to me under the premise that I was lying about not getting her vendor and then just work to get one of either you or Dwlee to lock in the mislynch.

Dwlee I see as the only realistic other possibility as Virture’s partner but I view that as a longshot. Despite the Pants Hat Accessory of that case I don’t see him hemming and hawing around when like Ranger he could move over to Virtue and more or less seal the mislynch (or at worst a No Lynch for his team).

[MagnaofIllusion]

Why is no-one remembering that on top of Hybrid Watcher / Tracker Rhaz also claimed a Role-Name Cop also after the fact? It is frustrating that people seem to be ignoring how improbable (aka Scum Fakeclaim) Virtue’s role is in the set-up.

Firebringer oops I mean Fire Assassin’s little rant and then immediate suck up to Ranger at 552 and 553 I think tells everyone what they need to know. He’s angry that his partner is getting meta’ed as scum despite playing a secret alt but knows he likely needs Ranger’s support so backs off and tries to appease Ranger.

a jailkeeper already flipped

Um no. Are you confusing games? Andro was a limited Power Roleblocker. Nothing in that role PM says he target is protected from kills at night.

Also at Dwlee why didn’t you quote the following in your case?

See – this is a perfect example of scum in trying to shoe-horn the situation into their personal narrative.
Firstly the bolded is clearly false.

I get results of player is TvTrope or not TvTrope. Inherent in that assessment is that if I get a not TvTropes result that player is Town.

The second part of the bolded also shows he’s not approaching the game from a Town mentality. Town already has a Full Doctor, Full Bulletproof and Limited Roleblocker. How much power is reasonable to expect in a 9 player game for Town with only 2 scum? Not nearly enough to justify his second claimed role of “Tracker plus Watcher plus Name-Cop”. Especially if you are to believe his stance that Town also had a 1-Shot Dayvig.

I’ve bolded the portion that is on point regarding your claim. If you researched my ISO why didn’t you see that and quote it?

@Ranger, I think you're town. Engage me please. Your claim (visiting Magna) is proof of them being ascetic when combined with mine. Magna made up their claim after we pressured them.

Or, you know, proof that you are a Jailkeeper (or whatever the term is for the variant) that prevents all actions on their target. As for the pressuring element – how do you suggest Rhaz pressured me at all. He fake-claimed a Cop Guilty in MYLO and immediately backed off that when I actually got on to post and refuted him. He later admitted he was incorrect at 401 about his results and then basically flaked as his position came under greater scruity.

Sorry you replaced into a scum slot who more or less claimed it in thread with 401 and his flake.

[MagnaofIllusion]

Move over to virtue to mislynch them? lol

pedit quick note after skimming your post I just looked around when you claimed and quoted the first 3 instances i saw of the claim

Yeah that is meant to be FROM Virtue you smart-ass. You know exactly what I meant from context.

That being said - please explain your reasoning why a TvTropes Cop (you know, someone who investigates the TVTropes faction since we don't have a traditional generic Mafia) is an auto-scum claim in thread?

[MagnaofIllusion]

Totally beginning to think my Dwlee/Ranger reads are wrong given Ranger's inability to apply Occam's Razor or engage in substance discussion and a vote on Magna doesn't make sense here if Dwlee is scum.

Quick - totally reverse my fabricated reads to appeal to the person most likely to swing my way at the moment ...

[MagnaofIllusion]

As for Mol, a normal claim should send up red flags. Most roles aren't 100% normal. The doctor that flipped technically might commute the person he saves. Dwlee isn't normal.

FA had a scumrole adapted to town.

This isn't a game where town is normal.

Actually this I agree with 100%. Normal claims in this game are suspect.

I start out as a TvTropes Cop with 1 shot. If we lynch a player I have investigated I earn a second shot overnight. I needed to check with the Mod regarding my result because Null reads as being roleblocked and I needed to be see if that would qualify me for a second shot.

I'm Ritsu. I learn everyone who visited my target and who my target visited. I also have another flavor cop ability to learn any player's character, but seriously when the hell am I ever gonna use that? I honestly consider my role a bit poorly designed.

My role is limited. I start with 1 shot. I can earn another but there are significant stipulations attached to that (must lynch someone I investigated) that don’t make is necessarily easy to achieve. No way a game of this size last long enough if I investigate Crunchyrolls player to ever reasonably get a second shot.

Your role on the other hand has no caveats. No downsides. Nothing that lines ups with the other limitiations seen in the game (Bulletproof explosion clause, Andros’ ability only being able to be used in Twilight, etc).

Virtue just basically scum-claimed for anyone doubting our 1v1 today.

[MagnaofIllusion]

What is my role's downside?

Well given what you have claimed the fact that your information is vague and as you stated doesn't necessarily clear whoever was targeted. What do you think of your ability given that if Virtue wasn't fake-claiming scum you could combined not only possibly protect the target from the poision's effects via releasing info on the post restriction but also nail scum doing it?

[MagnaofIllusion]

It isnt vague, I get told *blank was poisoned*, scum can only give me a fake innocent once they know I exist. I wouldnt be able to get info on the post restriction? What are you talking about.

I think you summarized it pretty clearly - you know someone who got poisoned but nothing specific other than letter length on the post restriction. As to your point on the fake clear - if you have so much knowledge at your disposal why do you assume scum don't know about the general existence of your role in a dichotomy sort of way?

[MagnaofIllusion]

@Magua, Yes, my role has downsides. Namely my role usually exists as a scumrole although Titus did have a town variant possibility in Don't Trust Titus. People think it would be scummy. FA looks like scum for Vig. I look like scum for OP. Dwlee looks like scum for too much info.

Your clam is too normal in that it's designed to look townie.

Lol. Just lol. Fire looks scummy for his shot because he shot a very Town read player and refused to answer as to why he did it. Your role looks scummy because it doesn't mesh well with the set-up given you could get multiple clears and or a clear and scum identification in one Night. But mine looks "too normal".

[MagnaofIllusion]

dude i dont get any info on the post restriction, not even length of the word

Ok now I am confused because this was your claim …

yo looks like itbis.massclaim I forget what it is called but I receive notifications if people get poisoned and who that is. night 1 no one was poisoned.

But if someone poisoned says a certain four letter word the person dies.

Was the bolded just a hypo example?

[MagnaofIllusion]

Wow. Just wow. I flaked this game when I thought I had fucked up miserably but I had actually caught one of the scum..

Yeah as I said in the Dead QT this was a strategic flake.

Rhaz goes on my WOTC list.