Micro 621: Mafia in Rarefaction (Game Over)

[RachMarie]

VOTE: TNE

[RachMarie]

Red is that a random vote or a serious one?

[RachMarie]

I thought Dallas was bigger than Houston?

[RachMarie]

From the wiki

Chainsaw Defense (Tarhalindur Version)
The general form of this tell is "a player who defends another player by attacking the other player's attacker is very probably scum".
The key to identifying this tell is intent - it is possible to confuse Chainsaw Defense with a player who simply finds the attacker scummy and has no intent of defense. In general, you can be reasonably sure that this tell is involved if a) the player supposedly using Chainsaw Defense has not previously been especially critical of the player he is now attacking, and b) the player supposedly using Chainsaw Defense seems to find the player he is supposedly defending at least reasonably pro-town.
The extreme form of this tell is Mutual Chainsaw Defense, where two players defend each other by attacking each others' attackers. This is a major scumtell, and Tarhalindur would be willing to lynch/vig both players with only this tell as justification.
The Chainsaw Defense is named after the mental image of a player ripping apart another player with a chainsaw for daring to attack his ally. It should not be confused with the Cochrane Defense, which can also be referred to as the Chainsaw Defense (the Wiki refers to the Cochrane Defense this way), which is a gambit made by players investigated as scum. The Chainsaw Defense can also be referred to as the Bodyguard Defense in order to prevent confusion.
UPDATE: After further analysis, Tarhalindur has determined that the Chainsaw Defense is only trustworthy once the player defended has been revealed to be group scum (once the player defended is proved to be Mafia, any player that used Chainsaw Defense on the dead scum should be scrutinized). Otherwise, it is a null tell. Mutual Chainsaw Defense may, however, still be an outright scumtell; more research is required here.

http://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?tit ... aw_Defense

[RachMarie]

What because I asked a question about Texas

I believe I did ask about if Red's vote was serious as well.

Other than asking questions to try to peg people as town and scum, I really have nada at this point in the game. Hence why I have not moved my RVS vote yet.

[RachMarie]

I am not so sold on the Kappy wagon, my experience is usually early wagons just out of RVS are often on townies. We have some really good players here, and I doubt any of them would scum it up this soon. Still we can get info from the Kappy wagon.

I find shotty's vote the more suspicious one though since it seems red said you got to start somewhere, and then shotty sheep voted.

Its enough to make me suspicious, but not enough for me to scum read him yet.

[RachMarie]

That was cause clearly Kappy is a newbie and asked a question, so I answered it.

Again I said it was enough to be suspicious but by itself does not meet the criteria of a scum read. Hence I did not vote for shotty. We need more discussion plus we have one player who has not even posted yet.

[RachMarie]

I asked for clarification of it being a serious vote to be sure in my mind he was serious. I want to get him pegged as soon as possible along with several other players.

[RachMarie]

not really, it is kinda hard to have reads on page 2 with most players having not posted more than 1 to 3 posts at most. Though you are leaning town, based on your taking charge and trying to get discussion going, but that is still not a strong read.

I would not call it a read on shotty he has not posted enough, its a suspicion of the way he jumped on the wagon. I am usually suspicious of sheep votes, especially this early in a game where no one is really set in stone as town or trustworthy.

I will feel better when mara posts, since I have played many games with her and usually can peg her fairly quickly.

As for shadow, the other player, I have not played in COMPLETED games with him IIRC.

Red's push for a serious vote instead of just random and trying to get us out of RVS seems towny.

[RachMarie]

Wait something else about shotty, he RVSed a second vote on xyz dude but then sheeped on red with no real solid case made on Kappy hmmm that suspicion just went up more.

[RachMarie]

TNE

can you point a game to me when someone other than say Nacho or Thor, I will grant you both those players tend to be strong leaders as scum, and I have seen it with either of them, but that is not my impression of infin. It is pretty ballsy to take care on D1 and work hard to get the rest of the town to follow you, and most scum players, in my experience, tend to play more conservatively than that. Especially this early on D 1.

[RachMarie]

Glad you could join us shadow.

Where is Mara I was really looking forward to playing with her again

@ Red you do not find his votes suspicious? Why? A second RVS vote then jumping right away with a sheep vote? How will that help us scum hunt?

[RachMarie]

It was not that he joined the wagon, it was how he joined that bothered me. Why is he so willing to just join wagons and not at least state some reasoning behind it? RVS I kind of understand, but where is his reasoning for joining the Kappy wagon?

How can I peg people if they do not give reasons for votes?

[RachMarie]

I gather you are not in favor of the Kappy wagon, TNE?

That one has a serious vote (Red) and a sheepy vote (shotty)

[RachMarie]

why not?

[RachMarie]

@ mod can you use the ol cattle prod on Mara? its really unusual she has not yet posted? She is usually pretty active in games

[RachMarie]

YAY Mara you did make it

I have no clue about lamist either figure it is some post 1990 something that a middle aged woman like me has never heard of.

Yeah I just checked Infin, you had seemed a bit familiar, we played in State Farm Mafia and Serra's Fun House.

[RachMarie]

Mara did you think I was accusing you of being scum because you had not posted? Actually I was just commenting that you had not posted since you are one of the reasons I joined this game, along with a few others players plus the awesomeness of the mod ♥

[RachMarie]

Just wanted to clarify Mara good to have you here.

Jury is still out though about your alignment, though Im starting to lean town due to your posts, you seem too relaxed for scum Mara, and I know you hate being scum.

[RachMarie]

I mean she is being fun with them, not getting all tense like she does in her scum game, but she also does not like my posting her scum game.

You do seem to be taking charge that is why I am saying that infin, its not a do or die read yet, but you are definitely not Thor, or Nacho two players I have seen be extra ballsy early on D 1 as scum.

[RachMarie]

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=66650

Newbie 1712 is now over so now I have a completed game with shadow. He was scum in that game.

That was why I was vague earlier because it was still ongoing at the time.

Not seeing the case on tne? I will skim through some of our old games, but this does not feel like his scum game?

@red please do expand because I have infin and you both as town reads.

[RachMarie]

It bothers me a bit too infin, it is awfully early in the game and no real reasons other than echoing Red's comments.

Do you have any other reasoning to support the wagon, xyz, other than oh I like what Red said?

[RachMarie]

uggh seriously folks we are trying to lynch my top town read?

Well my vote is doing nothing atm.

I feel that of those on the wagon on Infin

That Mara and Red are probably town.

That Kappy is pretty much non existent at this point.

so putting my vote where i feel it is likely to hit scum

VOTE: xyz


I am really not seeing a scum infin here. Granted I do not have the tons of games I have with some of the other players, but he is too actively involved in the game and it would be too ballsy to play leader as scum on d 1.

Meanwhile, xyz seems to be coasting along. His vote (3rd of 5) is a pretty good slot for scum to be in for a mislynch as well.


So yeah pretty happy with this vote.

[RachMarie]

meh wish there was more to go on so really no I don't yet. the fact that there is not much on one of the slots does not help.

I totally get the whole still feeling suspicious, I would too if I were in your shoes. After my first game on site when I got totally snowed by a guy who went way beyond white knighting on me, I am always suspicious when someone gets a solid town read on me.

Its actually logic that is why I am reading you as strong a town read as I am. Of course I am not 100% sure, just about 85% which is a strong town read for me. Especially this early in a game.

[RachMarie]

wait what?

I just got back site was down.

Infin how is voting for my scum read a wagon hop, Especially since I had previously been on my RVS vote, and I am not seeing TNE as that scummy, but I do see that with xyz?

[RachMarie]

See: 156. Rach asked me to make that post for her and I doubt she read it. Perhaps you will.

I read it, I just do not agree with it. I still have Infin as a town read. I just would think if he were scum here, he would be laying a lot lower and trying to appear townie, not taking charge like he has, and I feel xyz is scummy.

[RachMarie]

I asked because I was pegging YOU and understanding your reasons helped me peg you as town.

Not Mafia's vote on the other hand worries me.

I prefer reasons and cases and find naked votes suspicious

[RachMarie]

not mafia

Why did you vote xyz with a naked vote and not even a mention that you placed him at L-1?

Why when it was brought up, did you then switch over to a naked vote on TNE?

[RachMarie]

Wait a minute, I missed the claim

VOTE: Notmafia

Your voting patterns are suspicious.

[RachMarie]

Have a claim of Inno child from the player who has acted the scummiest, so have to go with number 2.

[RachMarie]

I missed that Mara? uggh I need to reread already I see,


Still it does not feel like your scum game, I know you hate it when I bring up that game but you definitely are playing more like your usual towny self here.

[RachMarie]

You missed xyz in your list there infin.

[RachMarie]

I want some answers from not Mafia

[RachMarie]

For Infin here is the game she hates me mentioning but she was scum here.

Hard Boiled
http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=52&t=26834

[RachMarie]

I really did not read through before responding since the site had been down. And I can understand you not being sure of my being town, I can understand you being suspicious of me.

So yeah in retrospect, I can see why that would be an issue. On the other hand, its not the first time I have said something and someone suddenly voted me out of the blue. I do my best, but a lot of times peeps think I am scum when I am not. Especially early on in the game. Your vote actually makes more sense now that I realized dude had claimed. Its wrong, but it is understandable.


Still feel good about my vote on Not Mafia



PEDIT you are not supposed to do spoilers like that, in games, you need to do the spoiler = one. and preview is your friend.

To get in the GTKAS thread go look at the OP the rules are there.

[RachMarie]

It feels like voting is all he is doing, there is no substance there. It is easy to vote, but you have to work with other townies to help them see WHY you feel so and so is scum. You need to be transparent and show your thought processes so that others can understand your reasonings behind your reads. That way if you get mislynched, or nked, vigged, or whatever, and flip town, the other townies can use your posts to help find the scum.

[RachMarie]

I was still looking at everyone before I placed my vote on him.

[RachMarie]

I did respond Red, I stated I disagree with your reasoning.

[RachMarie]

See: 156. Rach asked me to make that post for her and I doubt she read it. Perhaps you will.

I read it, I just do not agree with it. I still have Infin as a town read. I just would think if he were scum here, he would be laying a lot lower and trying to appear townie, not taking charge like he has, and I feel xyz is scummy.

Here Red

[RachMarie]

That of course was before xyz claimed though which is why I unvoted him and went after my 2nd scum read.

[RachMarie]

Infin

I really did not read through before responding since the site had been down. And I can understand you not being sure of my being town, I can understand you being suspicious of me.

So yeah in retrospect, I can see why that would be an issue. On the other hand, its not the first time I have said something and someone suddenly voted me out of the blue. I do my best, but a lot of times peeps think I am scum when I am not. Especially early on in the game. Your vote actually makes more sense now that I realized dude had claimed. Its wrong, but it is understandable.


Still feel good about my vote on Not Mafia

[RachMarie]

Game just FINALLY ended

Gunslinger Ahoy

Part of the reason I feel good about my town read on Infin is right here in this game.

I was the cop, and well uggh scum wiped the floor with me the very first night and I spent the rest of the game with a COP GUILTY oh that was painful lol

http://forum.mafiascum.net/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=66474

[RachMarie]

My read on not mafia is not meta based, its based on his game play here. My read on infin was bolstered by meta not just on meta.

My read on Mara does include meta because she and I have played in tons of games together, I can't ignore how she played in other games, just because you do not like meta.

Yes xyz claimed he is an innocent child. It has not yet been confirmed by the mod which comes later, but it would be wise to accept his claim since:

1, it is a suicide claim since he will probably be killed tonight by the scum.

2. His claim has not been counter-claimed which if he was NOT the IC, the real one would CC him since that would mean xyz is definitely caught scum for fake claiming.

So yeah he is town for sure.

[RachMarie]

Where my vote is on not Mafia.

[RachMarie]

Wondering if you are kidding...or not

[RachMarie]

I am still here just a bit swamped with a couple work projects.

[RachMarie]

VOTE: Not Mafia

[RachMarie]

Yeah I am surprised by that too xyz. the only things I can think of, is they derped and figured you would be doc protected or jailkept or something, which is not in this setup, but sometimes it happens, I have a couple times forgotten my role, like I remember in a game a couple years back, I derped on the difference tween tracker and watcher lol. The other being they knew it was not rarefication yet so figured they could throw some mud on your claim. Other than those two possibilities Im kinda clueless why they did not nk you?


Not Mafia has something to answer for, that quick hammer without any discussion and so on, reeks of scum.

[RachMarie]

He is my strongest scum read

Red is a town read
xyz duh un CCed inno kid
Infin is a town read
Mara is prob town this does not feel like her scum game

oh yeah there is you... defending your scum buddy much?>

Though it is very unusual having BOTH scumz on the lynch wagon. However since the counterwagon was YOU and I was on Not Mafia my strongest scum read, and since I was town reading TNE, I definitely would have gone for you but Not mafia quick hammered :/

[RachMarie]

how do you feel about not mafia quick hammering yesterday?

[RachMarie]

yeah the Kappy "wagon" is nonexistent and saying otherwise feels disingenuous

I find your echo sabre disturbing

UNVOTE:
VOTE: xyzzy

Infinite vs. Xyzzy is scum vs. town.

Vote on or the other plz.

Lets not dwell in these RVS votes.

You'd think she would vote Infinity after xyz claimed IC as she believes xyz vs infinity was t v s.

VOTE: TNE

L-1, someone state intent

Here Shadow step puts TNE at L1 and requests the next vote to declare intent.

VOTE: TNE

Just TWO votes later NM votes TNE with no hammer.

NEXT POST TNE is lynched and and flipped

So yeah there WAS a quick hammer by NM on TNE ...

Or else the mod marked someone as lynched that only had 4 votes on him.

[RachMarie]

Still I am fine with either him or FA both are in my scum pile and I definitely see interactions tween them.

[RachMarie]

It is? I missed that somehow, still your vote was the hammer,

So how about explaining why you hammered with no intent nothing just bam out of the blue

[RachMarie]

Then why did the mod list your name dead last, and RIGHT after you voted? Why did you not declare intent to hammer, and if you were on the wagon, why did you not correct the mod on that? It looks very suspicious especially with shadow step saying just before that the person needs to declare intent to hammer and give TNE a chance to claim and state her reads,

[RachMarie]

he was the last vote according to the OFFICIAL vote count, he voted a naked vote after someone asked for intent to hammer, he did not say oh I am voting for dude, he did not give intent, he just voted. Clearly the mod recognized it as the FINAL vote of the day, Yet his response to my push is oh no I was voting before the mod is wrong even though this is NOT a bastard setup, the mod is not lying.

A townie would say oops I should have declared intent but I still felt he was scum, not focusing on discrediting the mod. He was the final vote of the night. Had he not voted then, or had he declared intent so TNE could have responded I would have no problem, Had he fessed up and said yeah I was the last vote because I thought he was scum, again no problem. Why is he trying to discredit the mod saying oh I voted earlier and so that last vote did not count, It did count, the mod greyed him out when he moved his vote. and added him in as a last vote. Yes mods can make mistakes, but the way he is talking about it, he seems like he is trying to avoid getting in trouble with the mod but still call the mod out as wrong. It is how it feels to me.

Townies try to be transparent, scum try to obfuscate and slip around the edges of things.

[RachMarie]

It works for me, especially since based on his posts, I have FA in my scum pile. His responses to my push on NM do not at all feel townish.

[RachMarie]

feeling good about shad's entrance in the game. his questions help facilitate discussion. He seems engaged and trying to figure things out.

he can go in my town pile, especially since he replaced infin that I had a town read on.

[RachMarie]

in my experience mods don't do that if someone revotes the person they keep their vote on, they do not move to the end,

but I am more concerned with his response to my prodding than the vote itself, Im like the only one saying he is scummy in my book and yet he seems to be spending a lot of time on a vote that is not at this time showing any sign of him getting lynched right now.


Shad I can definitely give you a couple scum games they are not super recent though I was town in all the completed recent games, of which there are not very many, I basically was not playing mafia games for about a year, but before that i played in tons of games.

[RachMarie]

with that list my money is on FA

[RachMarie]

Or did you miss the part about that shad replaced in for infin?

[RachMarie]

Moving along,

UNVOTE:

I will hold on my vote for a while since my other main scumpect is currently at L1 and it is still pretty early in the game I would rather not see us end it before shad has a chance to fully catch up plus other people to chime in.

Just consider this an extended declaration to hammer FA

[RachMarie]

err early in the DAY not game

#needmorecoffee

[RachMarie]

What is your concern Red I feel like we need more time to discuss things before hammering my other scum read.

I doubt anyone is convinced about NM being maf, especially since shad is pushing a town read on him.

And other than the whole vote thing most of what I have on NM is gut i don't have a nice neat logical case on him like I want.

[RachMarie]

work deadline tomorrow will post more after I get this report finished for a client.

[RachMarie]

Im not hesitant to vote him I just did not want to end the day so soon before we had more info and heard from everyone on reads and such

why would you want the day to end so soon?

[RachMarie]

Since you unvoted him

VOTE: FA

L1 do not hammer without giving intent and give him a chance to claim.

[RachMarie]

I just saw that shad had unvoted so I voted I have not read the past pages I will do so tomorrow after I get some work done after my doc apt.

[RachMarie]

I gather you are town reading him, mara?

[RachMarie]

[quote="In post 421, RachMarie"]Moving along,

UNVOTE:

I will hold on my vote for a while since my other main scumpect is currently at L1 and it is still pretty early in the game I would rather not see us end it before shad has a chance to fully catch up plus other people to chime in.

Just consider this an extended declaration to hammer FA[

/quote]

I DID declare intent to hammer.

[RachMarie]

Moving along,

UNVOTE:

I will hold on my vote for a while since my other main scumpect is currently at L1 and it is still pretty early in the game I would rather not see us end it before shad has a chance to fully catch up plus other people to chime in.

Just consider this an extended declaration to hammer FA

I DID declare intent to hammer

uggh quote fail

[RachMarie]

@ mod I said the 22nd not 19th

Sorry all I have been more swamped than I thought I would be.


Why are we not lynching FA?

[RachMarie]

Im already voting you FA

[RachMarie]

Question, when I flip town, and I will, will you reassess FA in light of that? Since you seem to think him voting for me makes him town red?

I dont expect everyone to town read me, but that seems a flimsy reasoning to see him as town.

[RachMarie]

ok that makes sense then

Im still not convinced he is town though.

[RachMarie]

I wanted his reasoning, I am town reading him and it seemed out of character for town red, so wanted clarification.

[RachMarie]

You replaced in to Infin's slot that is why, and your own posts have not been scummy so that is why I feel good about having you in my town pile. I would be surprised if Infin was scum you are same slot.

Top that off with one of my scum reads in our lynch pool

not quite ready to vote him yet.

Sorry I have been totally slammed with work stuffs, will get you a list of scum games. None are recent since all my completed games onsite since my coming back from not playing for about a year are town games. If you want I can link those as well.

[RachMarie]

Still swamped with work stuffs will post more tomorrow, hopefully by then I will be done with the 10, 1 k articles I have to write for client.

[RachMarie]

I thought FA was scum, I was wrong :/

Beginning to think it is Mara and NM

[RachMarie]

me too confirmed town need to work as well, not just rest on the laurels of being confirmed town, that has always been one of my annoyances with the innocent child role.

[RachMarie]

VOTE: Not Mafia

[RachMarie]

Seriously has been a scum read for a while
In my cell
Shad makes a great point about the fact that NM is town reading me based on meta but NOT voting shad?

[RachMarie]

why would he hammer himself, Mara?

[RachMarie]

Wrong

He is the scum

not putting down a vote is quite typical scummy behavior, even in LYLO, Most town are more cautious and do not vote right away, but generally speaking scum like to hold back waiting for the hammer. Since I voted him, he was not going to vote himself, You however went on to try to analyze the game some more, granted its a weird LYLO and both scum need to hammer a townie in their cells for a quick win.

Still I feel like my town read on you has been confirmed, and that not mafia is the other scum.

[RachMarie]

in the other cell we know one of the scum has to be either Mara or Red since we know that XYZ is a mod confirmed townie

I am leaning on it being Mara, but I also know I could be wrong on my town read on Red.

[RachMarie]

which means I am right it is not mafia

so in your cell xyz which one do you think it is? Mara or Red?

[RachMarie]

because random.org hates us?

[RachMarie]

well I know I am town, and pretty convinced that shad is town based on his responses to my vote amongst other things so yeah

that is why my vote is still on not mafia

[RachMarie]

YES YES YES YES I TOLD YOU SO YES YES YES

ok I am fine now

[RachMarie]

now it is ALL on your shoulders xyz

no pressure....naaaaa none at all lol

[RachMarie]

true

[RachMarie]

yeah not happy with red just vanishing might do a site stalk on him see if it is just hes not on site or if he is laying low in THIS game.

[RachMarie]

that is actually amazing mara I swear like 75 frigging percent of the time I am lynched D 1 or D 2

Its like every time I am actually nked I am what I am dead how did that happen lol.

The fact that red has just plain vanished bothers me and makes me think he has given up since he knows hes screwed still he should come in and give it a try to convince us I hate it when someone is lynched without at least a chance to defend themselves even when it is their own fault.


Oh Mara I got a new hydra with Jiffy we will be in a game soonish woot finally gonna learn how to play this game ROFL about time after 4 1/2 years eh?

http://forum.mafiascum.net/memberlist.p ... le&u=28399

[RachMarie]

@mod is it possible to give Red the ol cattle prod?

[RachMarie]

uggh I know what it is like to be in your shoes right now xyz if there is anything I can do to help i will

[RachMarie]

I think we will have fun with it We both are crazy cat people

[RachMarie]

LOL I am always so mislynchable

hopefully my new hydra with jiffy will help with that

[RachMarie]

hugs ♥ xyz I totally understand

yeah when is deadline?

[RachMarie]

ahh 3 days

[RachMarie]

YES YES YES WE DID IT WOOT YAY

and it was a good game and scum you almost pulled it off

awesome job by our IC one of the best I have seen

[RachMarie]

I told ya all he was scumz

[RachMarie]

That happens too Infin the guessing wrong in LYLO bit I mean, hopefully we will play together again in another game in the future.

[RachMarie]

now that is just TOO FUNNY

now I get to see scum red

[RachMarie]

still pretty happy I nailed not mafia as scum though I may some day actually learn to play this game finally

Actually as soon as the game gets up (Green Day) Im playing as half of the hydra On The Prowl with Jiffy plus have one planned with Nacho partly to improve my game, particularly the part of being lynch bait so much and partly to get better at catching scumz.

[RachMarie]

umm 75% of the time im lynched D1 or D2

its been a bit better in the last few games since I got back to playing after about a year of not playing.

[RachMarie]

yes pretty please with sugar on top

[RachMarie]

Thanks again Equinox you rock ♥

[RachMarie]

Glad you listened to me shad and would love to play with you again