Micro 633: Marvel Dual Universes uPick - Game over!

[TellTaleHeart]

This RVS wagon is

enthralling

. I can't wait to see
~zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz~

[TellTaleHeart]

*raises hand*.

@Fire - No Lynching and/or mislynching will hurt town, so it's better we just kynch who we think are scum.

Very standard answer.
You don't think it would make more strategic sense to focus on one earth at a time at all?
Mislynching causes the game to essentially reset and we lose focus of Earth 1.

We will come back to it, but it will be harder as people will mix motivations of Earth 1 and 2 when they could be very different alignments.

I'm sorry what are saying is going to be the payoff here, Fire?

[TellTaleHeart]

Every time you surrender a lynch, you're trading EV for ~something.~ What is the ~something~?

In the DC iteration of this game, there was a no lynch the first day on Earth 2 because of gladiator shenanigans. I don't think it helped town there.

[TellTaleHeart]

I think I said possible investigations and for a flip without us going into the alternate earth.
What is your point?

My point is that the cost is more than the benefit here.

[TellTaleHeart]

TTH, join the RVS wagon for the lolz!

You're not my supervisor!

[TellTaleHeart]

I don't agree.

I was in the DC game.
The investigative (in that case, a Neapolitan) got

two nights

of a head start.
It still didn't help.

I get your theory, but giving up lynches fucks the EV faster than I think any investigative could hope to rescue it.

[TellTaleHeart]

One thing we didn't do last time that we probably should've done a lot more of was take advantage of flipped town's cross-earth reads.

Other than that, play it straight.

[TellTaleHeart]

Enough theory

VOTE: Alabaska

[TellTaleHeart]

Please be careful when using player metas and don't let that be a main argument. very easy to misinterpret lets behavior and very easy to play around your meta to fool people

Do you have any reads?

[TellTaleHeart]

making the town more disorganized as it moves through the game

How am I doing that?

[TellTaleHeart]

can lead to some great reads

based on people's opinions about the setup and can lead to a more coordinated and focused town.

Alright-y then...

I think Fire Assassin's move to suggest a no lynch would've been a little risky as town because it's not a popular idea in overall site meta and he wouldn't have known how it would've been received (high risk for scum). I have a mild townread there. Other than that, this thread so far has been like getting reads off of an MD thread.

But, you know, by all means keep talking in circles and pretend you're doing something to build "town focus" or some such.

[TellTaleHeart]

EBWOP: (I should proofread these things.)

can lead to some great reads

based on people's opinions about the setup and can lead to a more coordinated and focused town.

Alright-y then...

I think Fire Assassin's move to suggest a no lynch would've been a little risky as scum* because it's not a popular idea in overall site meta and he wouldn't have known how it would've been received. I have a mild townread there. Other than that, this thread so far has been like getting reads off of an MD thread.

But, you know, by all means keep talking in circles and pretend you're doing something to build "town focus" or some such.

[TellTaleHeart]

Here's a mental exercise for you:
What would prevent me or anyone else in this player list, as scum, from jauntily (and truthfully) rattling off their philosophy to scumhunting?
Conversely, what are town supposed to "organize" around?

Bonus points if you can make a post that doesn't sound like it belongs in a newbie game or a discussion thread.

[TellTaleHeart]

Prod dodge
Getting to this later today

[TellTaleHeart]

what i mean by disorganized is that the whole town will have less of a plan to move forward through a game with a unique set-up if they don't discuss how to navigate said unique set-up. it's always good to talk about theory early on in the game so no one makes a boneheaded move that screws over the town because of a quirk in the format. all i had going in to this game were my own theories and i see nothing wrong with getting them proofread by being posted.

Generalities
Generalities
Generalities

Generalities don't do me any good. What specifically would someone do to wreck the game that needs to be discussed now?

you are also voting me. how is talking about theory a scumtell exactly? what anti-town behavior am i exhibiting? i am just discussing the format and want to continue to do so so that we can have a coherent plan here. someone immediately suggested no lynching! it is clear we at least need to keep talking until we can come to some sort of vague consensus on how to continue on through the game in reference to the two worlds. additionally, theory discussion is a great source of information on day one because it forces people to discuss the game directly and argue about real things before anyone has died. day 1 is so often a crapshoot due to the lack of information. more information makes day 1 easier for town and a better tool on later days during rereads.

One person
One person has suggested no lynching. So far,

no one

has agreed with that.
I think the consensus you're talking about it pretty much there. What more do you want?

And now that we've circled back around to the subject of my vote on you, I did not vote you for talking about theory. I actually voted you because I got a little bit of a buddy-ish vibe off of Post 53 (Referring to: "Clumsy makes some great points there." and "Clumsy is right").

The "scumtell" you are commiting is called "coasting/fluffing" by not scumhunting and just talking about game theory.

It's a pretty big accusation to make tho this early in the game.

:S
So I know why I'm voting Alabaska. Why are you voting him?

this is exactly why we should keep discussing theory, so there is something to do and react to.

scumhunting as normal until a mislynch occurs, to me, is the best option.

then once we get into the second universe, we can restart the process and additionally look for differences in play. specifically, i think how people defend against certain positions and ideas will be relevant. looking for scum teams and fishy interactions between players seems like it would be more useful here for this reason

Didn't I say that before?

One thing we didn't do last time that we probably should've done a lot more of was take advantage of flipped town's cross-earth reads.

Other than that, play it straight.

But, I forgot, I have this devious scum plan to somehow make people forget how to play mafia and shit their own pants in fear instead.

[TellTaleHeart]

so there is something to do and react to.

You know what people react to?
Votes.
Wagons.
Reads.

All of which you're avoiding.

[TellTaleHeart]

TTH, no introductory roleplaying this time around? I for one enjoyed that last time.

No, I didn't pick someone as easy to do that with this time.
(Though you could say I'm vaguely "in character"

all the time

with my choice. She's a bit of a smart ass.)

[TellTaleHeart]

:S

Do

you

have any reads yet?

[TellTaleHeart]

VOTE: Clumsy

[TellTaleHeart]

VOTE: Clumsy

Good vote, want to go into it anymore?

So you're saying that trying to follow someone's reasoning and understanding their thought process is bad because I agree with them? Just because I hold a similar opinion does not mean that person is automatically town. I'm not going to tip my hand first when questioning.

No I am saying theres no reason to question someone if you agree with them on something unless you believe they are just forcing that agreement on you.
For instance, say I go into a game and townread X
Then somene says 'OHh I townread X to, but why do you townread him?" I say, well look at this engagement.
They say "Yes, I thought that was town too, but why?"

ALl of this seems fluffy.

I ask questions on people to see why we have different thoughts, and to see if their opinions are sheeping my own. Not to see why they agree with me when they were the first to point something out.

If the engagement went. You townread TTH but don't think Alabaska was town, and then someone agrees with you. Then questioning them makes sense.

Not doing that and just questioning them seems like filler fake scumhunting.
Its not even real scumhunting.

You sort of stole my thunder there.
I thought 155 was awkward because agreeing with you leaves the line of questioning feeling purposeless.

Him pawing at you in 136 about Xkfyu felt a little forced too, I didn't (and still don't) have a clear opinion of him despite the number of posts.

[TellTaleHeart]

I still have reading to do for this game. I'll get to you soon.

[TellTaleHeart]

Just because I hold a similar opinion does not mean that person is automatically town. I'm not going to tip my hand first when questioning.

Did you have any reason for thinking Fire was scum at the time?
If so, I'd like to hear about it.

[TellTaleHeart]

*Sits and hopes tth is still reading and wants to interact*

Go ahead, I read up and I'm really struggling for townreads. Part of it is probably that my heads not all here but it feels like people are doing weird and counterintuitive things this game: McMenno with his lilith push and suddenly dropping his pursuit of Ircher, Clumsy and his Fire line of questioning, Ircher's recent townread growing out of scumcase.

:S

[TellTaleHeart]

Alright-y, you do that.

[TellTaleHeart]

After sleeping on it, I think I have townreads on Panther and Fire Assassin.

I also still want to lynch Clumsy.

[TellTaleHeart]

I'm going to crash soon. Dunno if I'll be up in time tomorrow. I'm okay with a Mcmenno/Ircher. Not voting for Lilith. Panther is a big townread.

Right, so why am I not in this is you're going to peddle a vague meta scumread?
Discredit much?

[TellTaleHeart]

TTH, was that post in English? ._.

Yes.
If I'm such a scumread for you then why am I not listed in the "OK to lynch" category?

Is it because you're scum and you're bullshitting the read? (Yes.)

[TellTaleHeart]

I was going to vote McMenno over Lilith but now that Clumsy's there I really don't want to have anything to do with that wagon.

[TellTaleHeart]

You're pretty fast to jump onto me as soon as I so much as look your direction though.

~Ignoring the fact that I've been calling you scum for a while now and you're just now throwing shade at me.~

[TellTaleHeart]

Town: PantherPunt, Fire Assassin
Maybe Town: Ircher, Xkfyu
Lower Echelon: Clumsy, Alabaska J, lilith2013, McMenno

I like where PantherPunt's head is at with his McMenno push (specifically Post 202).
Fire Assassin is a lot more lurk-ish and disengaged as scum, which isn't showing up here. I also like his Clumsy push.
At the risk of falling into the "too bad to be scum" trap, I would have to think that Ircher as scum would put a lot more effort into making his reads look "consistent" and match-y than the whole bizarre thing with Panther (Post 247) and Alabaska (Post 132).

Everyone else is meh (except Clumsy, he's scummy).

[TellTaleHeart]

Is that normal for you?

I don't even know what you're talking about.
Essentially my play from E2 of the DC game was coasting on the vig claim so no, my posting there isn't anything like my posting here.

[TellTaleHeart]

VOTE: lilith

[TellTaleHeart]

I'm about to leave for a while. Do I need to move over to Ircher?

[TellTaleHeart]

Not happening Panther. (As it shouldn't.)
VOTE: Ircher

[TellTaleHeart]

Because people are being stubborn and Ircher is someone you, McMenno, and lilith (the people who happen to be on right now) are willing to vote.

It's not optimal but certainly preferable to a no lynch.

[TellTaleHeart]

Whatever
2 shot Watcher

Do what you want.

[TellTaleHeart]

Yeah one hour to deadline and I can't stick around long.

[TellTaleHeart]

I'll try to get back on but no guarantees.
This is what happens when you flashwagon at deadline.

[TellTaleHeart]

This is happening?
This is happening!

VOTE: Clumsy

[TellTaleHeart]

Town: PantherPunt, Fire Assassin
Maybe Town: Ircher, Xkfyu
Lower Echelon: Clumsy, Alabaska J, lilith2013, McMenno

I like where PantherPunt's head is at with his McMenno push (specifically Post 202).
Fire Assassin is a lot more lurk-ish and disengaged as scum, which isn't showing up here. I also like his Clumsy push.
At the risk of falling into the "too bad to be scum" trap, I would have to think that Ircher as scum would put a lot more effort into making his reads look "consistent" and match-y than the whole bizarre thing with Panther (Post 247) and Alabaska (Post 132).

Everyone else is meh (except Clumsy, he's scummy).

Reads are still here

[TellTaleHeart]

Wait, didn't TTH have to leave? She's still here at deadline to hammer?

Why claim that early then?

In case it wasn't obvious already by my telegraphic posts, my attention is not fully here.

[TellTaleHeart]

Lilith's shade-throwing at my hammer is scummy.

[TellTaleHeart]

Town: PantherPunt, Fire Assassin
Maybe Town: Ircher, Xkfyu
Lower Echelon: Clumsy, Alabaska J, lilith2013, McMenno

I like where PantherPunt's head is at with his McMenno push (specifically Post 202).
Fire Assassin is a lot more lurk-ish and disengaged as scum, which isn't showing up here. I also like his Clumsy push.
At the risk of falling into the "too bad to be scum" trap, I would have to think that Ircher as scum would put a lot more effort into making his reads look "consistent" and match-y than the whole bizarre thing with Panther (Post 247) and Alabaska (Post 132).

Everyone else is meh (except Clumsy, he's scummy).

Reads are still here

Town: PantherPunt, Fire Assassin
Maybe Town: Ircher, Xkfyu
Lower Echelon: Clumsy, Alabaska J, lilith2013, McMenno

I like where PantherPunt's head is at with his McMenno push (specifically Post 202).
Fire Assassin is a lot more lurk-ish and disengaged as scum, which isn't showing up here. I also like his Clumsy push.
At the risk of falling into the "too bad to be scum" trap, I would have to think that Ircher as scum would put a lot more effort into making his reads look "consistent" and match-y than the whole bizarre thing with Panther (Post 247) and Alabaska (Post 132).

Everyone else is meh (except Clumsy, he's scummy).

I take this back.
If Clumsy flips scum, I would move lilith, McMenno, and probably Xk to town.
If Clumsy flips town, I would move lilith to scum.

[TellTaleHeart]

I have no idea why that double quoted. @_@

[TellTaleHeart]

I didn't get anything helpful off the watch.

[TellTaleHeart]

I think the last scum is Alabaska or Ircher.

[TellTaleHeart]

Alright-y then.
VOTE: Ircher

[TellTaleHeart]

TTH who did you watch?

You.
I didn't see anybody.

[TellTaleHeart]

themeclaim panther?

Your flavor is the same across Earths so you might want to keep that to yourself.

[TellTaleHeart]

themeclaim panther?

Your flavor is the same across Earths so you might want to keep that to yourself.

Wouldn't that help us if he is scum in the other Earth though?

Not sure who "us" is here, but it might hurt him a little regardless of what alignment he ends up being.
In the DC game there was at least a tenuous link between flavor and role. That said, I'm not sure how well the roles could've been predicted from the superhero (and I wouldn't have guessed "commuter" given Spiderman).

Flavor isn't AI guys. it doesn't matter whether anyone claims their flavor or not.

You're right that it's not a huge deal. I'm more just saying as a courtesy thing to Panther.

[TellTaleHeart]

Action?

[TellTaleHeart]

Action?

You.

You indeed visited Fire Assassin.

No points for you.
Hammer at will Lilith.

[TellTaleHeart]

He's usually at least somewhat scumread, so I don't see why scum wouldn't leave that and take out someone like TTH or FA for example. Seems odd to me.

Of course they wouldn't kill me.
I'm loved. <3

[TellTaleHeart]

Oh yeah?
Why's that?

[TellTaleHeart]

I did react? o.O

[TellTaleHeart]

I'm pretty concerned you're calling me scum here, Fire.
Fun challenge for you because I'm going to bed now: if you don't know why by the time I wake up, I'm voting you. :3

[TellTaleHeart]

Since when did you take me for a mind reader?

You were paying enough attention to make a "read" but you didn't pick up on the crumb.
But it looks like you weren't the only offender.

[TellTaleHeart]

I stewed on it on my commute to work. I don't think it actually makes TTH scum.

Wait, you

actually

thought that a double voter was something that demands a direct scum counter?

[TellTaleHeart]

It makes perfect sense as a scum role. It doesn't ACTUALLY NECESSITATE it. You sound like a prick here though so good job.

Why is that being a prick?
My immediate thought was that it was a reaction test, your later post gave evidence otherwise and now I'm asking you to clarify on your position. Calling it a "scumclaim" made it sound like you were arguing that it did ACTUALLY NECESSITATE it.

[TellTaleHeart]

I would probably have kept quiet about it if my modifier stayed in LYLO but it doesn't so I feel like it's essentially a filler role.
I've had this role once before and I crumbed it in almost the exact same way and nothing horrible happened as a result. I'm also someone who outed as an IC on my first post so maybe I am a tad impulsive but I don't think what I did was badly negative EV.

[TellTaleHeart]

Thoughts on Alabaska?

I don't have an opinion on him yet.

[TellTaleHeart]

Care to expound upon what your self-perceived reaction was? And why you didn't think Clumsy/the issue merited a response?

My thought at the time was that Fire's glossing over the soft to pin a scumread on me showed a "need to fake reads" mentality but I've since mentally moved on from that. That's also why I let the response sort of lapse.

[TellTaleHeart]

What about he just didn't pick up on the soft? How do you not consider that?

Hence why I mentally moved on.

[TellTaleHeart]

On a side note, I'm hoping not to make this game too toxic. I was a little bit of a bitch on Earth 1 because I was in a mental funk at the time but I think I'm mostly over it now.

Most of the time, I literally mean what I say. I'll go ahead and dispel any notions that I think I'm a better mafia player or I'm smarter than anyone else here. I acknowledge that I'm likely not.

[TellTaleHeart]

I don't like this self reference to past games, where was this in previous earth TTH?

That was in the context of the conversation with Panther.
Are you alright, Fire?

[TellTaleHeart]

Can I ask why it matters what role you soft?

There's nothing inherently town about the role but the only times I've ever seen the role used it was town.
While it's not technically correct play, if I saw someone else soft loved my first instinct would be to slightly townread it.

[TellTaleHeart]

You were definitely not playing like this day one.

On another front, "you weren't playing like this on Earth 1" is a ridiculous argument and really only permutation of the laziest form of meta.
I don't even think I agree that Panther's play here

does

drastically differ from Earth 1.

[TellTaleHeart]

neighbors in micros are often both town

Now that I think about it, I've seen neighborhoods in micros 5 times and only once have they had scum. @_@

[TellTaleHeart]

I am dandy, tell me why I shouldn't be voting you right now TTH.

Seriously?
If you think me answering Panther's post in incriminating, then there's no good answer to that so here's Gumball chasing a laser pointer, enjoy.

I don't instinctly townread modifiers unless its extremely negative utility, such as miller, ascetic, hated (But given how it works here, no).

I've been a scum miller before.
Let's be real for a minute. None of the roles you listed are likely town because of some inconceivable mechanical advantage/disadvantage they impart or because there's no way they wouldn't work as a scum role. They're thought of as likely town because of convention, how often they're used as town versus scum.
(Except ascetic. A scum ascetic would have immunities to investigative and blocking roles so I have no idea why you would automatically townread an ascetic.)

[TellTaleHeart]

I have n other scumreads besides TTH right now.
Will someone else be scummy for me?

How am I scummy?

[TellTaleHeart]

I can definitely tell you aren't scumhunting right now.

You can definitely not because I haven't said any of what I'm thinking about reads.

[TellTaleHeart]

Spoiler: Since I know you like self-referencing

I'm pretty concerned you're calling me scum here, Fire.
Fun challenge for you because I'm going to bed now: if you don't know why by the time I wake up, I'm voting you. :3

Since when did you take me for a mind reader?

You were paying enough attention to make a "read" but you didn't pick up on the crumb.
But it looks like you weren't the only offender.

I stewed on it on my commute to work. I don't think it actually makes TTH scum.

Wait, you

actually

thought that a double voter was something that demands a direct scum counter?

It makes perfect sense as a scum role. It doesn't ACTUALLY NECESSITATE it. You sound like a prick here though so good job.

Why is that being a prick?
My immediate thought was that it was a reaction test, your later post gave evidence otherwise and now I'm asking you to clarify on your position. Calling it a "scumclaim" made it sound like you were arguing that it did ACTUALLY NECESSITATE it.

You were definitely not playing like this day one.

On another front, "you weren't playing like this on Earth 1" is a ridiculous argument and really only permutation of the laziest form of meta.
I don't even think I agree that Panther's play here

does

drastically differ from Earth 1.

I think that's an unfair accusation even with the stuff I

have

already said.

[TellTaleHeart]

So you point out not posting your thoughts as you just hiding your thoughts and you are scum hunting?

Yep.
On a non-snarky note, I don't have anything I want to push and that really is what it is. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

[TellTaleHeart]

I'm a self-conscious about that after I offended Panther.
I don't want snarky-me ruining the game and making everyone think I'm an awful person.

[TellTaleHeart]

Town-Clumsy, Mcmenno

Leaning Town-Xkfyu

Null-Lilith2013, PantherPunt, Alabaska

Scum-TellTaleHeart

McMenno is the only read I'm on board with here.

[TellTaleHeart]

Not counting the nulls.

[TellTaleHeart]

I just haven't really gotten a positive impression of him yet.

[TellTaleHeart]

(Is this the part where you say why you're townreading him or do I need to ask for that as part of the "scumhunting" I'm supposed to be doing that unbeknownst to me I'm falling down on?)

[TellTaleHeart]

If that's the point we're at in this conversation, I'm going to bed because I'm not really that interested.

[TellTaleHeart]

Cakez: I will be gone until Tuesday with very little internet access.

Nothing's really inspired a good read for me still.
I'll leave my vote here. VOTE: PantherPunt

Have a good Labor Day weekend everyone.

[TellTaleHeart]

Um...why is Panther the leading wagon right now?

Why wouldn't/shouldn't he be?

I'm jealous of him. I'm trying to find "townie as shit" things to latch on to and I'm coming up empty.

[TellTaleHeart]

Why wouldn't/shouldn't he be?

I'll refer back to this.
Honestly, I just voted him to even up the wagons and see what everyone else would do.

Why is it such a big deal to you?

[TellTaleHeart]

VOTE: TTH

[TellTaleHeart]

that was pointless

It was.

Alright well, obviously TTH is really Loved. No real surprise there, but was still a good idea to check.

What does your townread consist of?

[TellTaleHeart]

Alright-y. :3
VOTE: Alabaska

[TellTaleHeart]

Oopsies, got prodded

[TellTaleHeart]

The only people I'm hard townreading are McMenno and Fire.
Gut feeling that Xk and Clumsy are more likely town than not but that's not really based on anything.

Spoiler: Cute video for Fire because he likes cute things