Micro 708: H4rdcore Mafia (Game Over)

[MathBlade]

Hi everyone quick thoughts. Having played a lot of flipless mafia in the past I am suggesting we look backwards a bit not forwards. I need to read but we know for a fact one of the two people lynched has to be Town or the game would be over. Everyone tell me which you think is Town and why while I read?

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(Note both is acceptable but neither is not. If you want to say you don't know demonstrate thought on both)

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VC 2.2 revisited - Oh it's a lynch edition

duppin (2) - GuiltyLion, momo, LicketyQuickety, moonbird, ZZZX
LaLight (1) - Infinity 324
ZZZX (2) - LaLight

Not Voting: duppin

With

8

votes,

5

to lynch

Votecount! (1.5)

Not_Mafia (5) - ZZZX, LicketyQuickety, LaLight, duppin, momo
momo (1) - moonbird
LaLight (1) - Infinity 324
Infinity 324 (1) - Not_Mafia

Not Voting - GuiltyLion

With

9

votes,

5

to lynch

The deadline is in (expired on 2017-05-10 22:09:40).

I especially want to hear from the ZZZX LQ and momo slots. There is likely one scum in there.
And likely scum in Infinity324 who was off both wagons but those are initial thoughts.

Gut momo and Infinity324 based on Not Mafia's weak sauce ISO.

Need to read to see if that holds.

[MathBlade]

Why are you asking me why I am asking for your reads? Pretty straight forward. On both lynches. At least one is town.

I don't know why you are asking me why when through quoting the votes that is clear instead of answering the question who you of Not Mafia and duppin is town and why. It is a pretty straight forward question and I want to see how that answer colors your reads of the game now.

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After two lynches and the game not ending people should be addressing their mistakes not shoving an opinion.

FoS on anyone who didn't adjust after duppin' lynch. Still haven't read yet.

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Why am I scum :/

Because your analysis is off and you fight against the duppin wagon.

You are likely scum with Infinity based on this post here.

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I agree. Infinity has been "odd" at every turn. I think its so odd that I think its unlikely that it comes from Town.

I'll vote for either ZZZX or Infinity at this point.

ZZZX's catch up reads post was hugely underwhelming. Duppin provided 10X more to the game in his reads and he was lynched, so I have no mercy for ZZZX on this.

Also to note that I think it was primarily ZZZX and Infinity who were going after LaLight, which I thought was odd. IDK about odd enough for them to be teamed, just something to think about.

Yeah scum with Infinity.

Infinity never answered why he said ZZX's reads were weak and said he can't disagree with someone scumreading his scumreads. Quite frankly that is a load of crap. Between that and then instantly changing up ZZX for a future lynch makes ZZX Town because that implies they knew duppin was Town.

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Let me get this straight. ZZZX promises a detailed reads post and instead they hammer without giving a reason?

I think we found our next lynch.

This post is likely a scum claim from LQ.

This implies they think a tomorrow would exist despite being on the Not Mafia and duppin wagons. Then they don't go back and reevaluate where they went wrong and instead push what is easy.

I could do LQ or Infinity today and my predecessor was voting Infinity.

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Calling infinity scum for fighting against the duppin wagon while simultaneously calling the hammer bad from ZZX making the wagon on a likely town which means defending the wagon would be townie. However LQ probably needs something to attack Infinity for and then disappear from the push.

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@Alisae with such short time left we need to consolidate here. Which and why?

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P.S. lalight is a horrible wagon when ZZX was called out for the hammer infinity called ZZX reads weak and then works with ZZX.

By contrast and reasons already mentioned ZZX is a bad wagon as that is the likely puppet of infinity so bussing doesn't have to happen.

LQ or Infinity need rope. LQ "scumreads" Infinity so there should be 0 problem LQ voting Infinity so if we have to compromise there I would be okay but LQ is the likely head of the beast.

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Don't want to waste time talking about why my townread's read reasoning was weak in one post while I have catching up to do. Once I'm caught up remind me if it's that important.

I think duppin and n_m were probably both town. Maybe n_m was scum.

It is okay you're probably scum.

This should have been everyone's first thought after two lynches didn't end the game.

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And the only catch-up you have is MY posts asking. It is literally you have posted on the same fucking page.

Booooo!

VOTE: Infinity324

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Again you're using flipful mafia rules, in a flipless game. Where if you actually bothered to address my question and answer it you would have said ZZX from your POV is scum based on where your vote is.

Any player who is categorically proven wrong yet doesn't change their reads or provide analysis into doing so is scum.

Infinity is scum for being off both wagons and sheeping/working with ZZX despite calling him a scumread. This makes LaLight Town by that virtue alone. I still notice you say I didn't give reasons when this is literally what I said above too.

You are scum when despite being shown ZZX is a scum pocket and despite being shown evidence you were wrong somewhere before in prior days you keep trucking along as if nothing changed. You attack Infinity yet never Vote him and yet you say Duppin was likely town and so then defending Town would not be stupid.

Join me on Infinity or scum claim more. Your choice.

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Why am I scum :/

Because your analysis is off and you fight against the duppin wagon.

You are likely scum with Infinity based on this post here.

That's an association read which shouldn't be done in a flipless game. I hardly even do flip analysis in a normal game, how you gunna do it in a flipless game?

Association should be done even more so in a flipless game.

In a flipless game you see who says what and doesn't back it up.

Flipless is all about the associations. Otherwise there is zilch Togo on.

[MathBlade]

Let me get this straight. ZZZX promises a detailed reads post and instead they hammer without giving a reason?

I think we found our next lynch.

This post is likely a scum claim from LQ.

This implies they think a tomorrow would exist despite being on the Not Mafia and duppin wagons. Then they don't go back and reevaluate where they went wrong and instead push what is easy.

I could do LQ or Infinity today and my predecessor was voting Infinity.

No actually I am the only one thinking about this game in the right perspective. What ZZZX did was Scummy on a base level. Reading into it any more than that isn't something you can back up with anything. reading concrete things that are Towny and Scummy behaviour is really all we have in this game since there are no flips and no kills.

Seriously, people are halfway retarded if they think they can solve this game in the same way people try to solve a normal game. If I get lynched it just shows how stupid most people are when it comes to thinking objectively about this kind of game.

First of all never use the r word in a thread with me.
I rarely ever policy lynch for things but that is something I don't mind policying over.

Town does scummy things all the time. Scum use that and manipulate it. It isn't the battle of who does not do the scummiest things it is about who is scum.

ZZX is a player who I think would work well in blitz. He categorically fits the pattern of post a lot. Meh I am bored I will read later. Read post a lot. Bored need more time to read. Hammer.

There was no counter wagon and nothing for ZZX to hammer except boredom. if anything that hammer shows he is Town. I have done lol hammers like that and scum tried to capitalize on me. It is NAI from ZZZX that hammer.

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Again you're using flipful mafia rules, in a flipless game. Where if you actually bothered to address my question and answer it you would have said ZZX from your POV is scum based on where your vote is.

Any player who is categorically proven wrong yet doesn't change their reads or provide analysis into doing so is scum.

Infinity is scum for being off both wagons and sheeping/working with ZZX despite calling him a scumread. This makes LaLight Town by that virtue alone. I still notice you say I didn't give reasons when this is literally what I said above too.

You are scum when despite being shown ZZX is a scum pocket and despite being shown evidence you were wrong somewhere before in prior days you keep trucking along as if nothing changed. You attack Infinity yet never Vote him and yet you say Duppin was likely town and so then defending Town would not be stupid.

Join me on Infinity or scum claim more. Your choice.

Mate, the posts where you quoted the VC is flip associations.

And people need to seriously stop making argument that "if you were Town you would do X" those arguments only work if you actually know the player you are saying that about on a very deep and intimate level. No one in this game has that kind of meta on me. Alisae is prolly closest to that, but Alisae is off their rocker confbiasing me based on the simple fact that they haven't said I have done a single Townie thing. That means that Alisae is not playing an objective game, but a biased game.

You're going to try to tell someone who does better in flipless f2f mafia how to be better at flipless mafia when I probably have more wins in flipless mafia than some people here have on site? And yes I asked that question and if it didn't strike a nerve when I did ask then you're scum. If you can't re-evaluate when confronted with the sheer wrongness of your reads and then come back with an answer and why you're scum.

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That's a pretty weakly reasoned reads list but I can't argue with someone scumreading my other 2 suspects.

VOTE: lalight

This is way overdue

Which part of it is weak though, Care to explain it?

Never answers this question. And no if someone who is scummy to you scumreads your scumreads you re-evaluate.

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Why am I scum :/

Because your analysis is off and you fight against the duppin wagon.

You are likely scum with Infinity based on this post here.

That's an association read which shouldn't be done in a flipless game. I hardly even do flip analysis in a normal game, how you gunna do it in a flipless game?

Association should be done even more so in a flipless game.

In a flipless game you see who says what and doesn't back it up.

Flipless is all about the associations. Otherwise there is zilch Togo on.

OK, you clearly see things the complete opposite way that I do regarding flipless games. The way I see it is all we have is whether someone does things that are Scummy to and in itself - associations mean zilch because we don't know what lynches are correct or not correct with any kind of certainty at all. Your argument HAS to regress to what my argument is because otherwise you wouldn't be able to make associations - because the initial association read is based on how Townie or Scummy a player played that was lynched. Like you are dumb for not getting this. Get on my level.

Calling me dumb is not a way to convince me my assessment is wrong.

You are categorically refusing to answer who is Town of Not_Mafia and Duppin. One or more HAVE to be Town. And then from that basing your reads. Instead you are acting as if that never happened.

Instead you call me stupid when I directly refuse your reason ZZX should be lynched namely the hammer.

I am not going to "Get on your level" because that requires disregarding your shitty play implying there would be a day three then your bullshit attack on infinity for defending someone you townread Duppin.

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Let me get this straight. ZZZX promises a detailed reads post and instead they hammer without giving a reason?

I think we found our next lynch.

This post is likely a scum claim from LQ.

This implies they think a tomorrow would exist despite being on the Not Mafia and duppin wagons. Then they don't go back and reevaluate where they went wrong and instead push what is easy.

I could do LQ or Infinity today and my predecessor was voting Infinity.

No actually I am the only one thinking about this game in the right perspective. What ZZZX did was Scummy on a base level. Reading into it any more than that isn't something you can back up with anything. reading concrete things that are Towny and Scummy behaviour is really all we have in this game since there are no flips and no kills.

Seriously, people are halfway retarded if they think they can solve this game in the same way people try to solve a normal game. If I get lynched it just shows how stupid most people are when it comes to thinking objectively about this kind of game.

First of all never use the r word in a thread with me.
I rarely ever policy lynch for things but that is something I don't mind policying over.

Town does scummy things all the time. Scum use that and manipulate it. It isn't the battle of who does not do the scummiest things it is about who is scum.

ZZX is a player who I think would work well in blitz. He categorically fits the pattern of post a lot. Meh I am bored I will read later. Read post a lot. Bored need more time to read. Hammer.

There was no counter wagon and nothing for ZZX to hammer except boredom. if anything that hammer shows he is Town. I have done lol hammers like that and scum tried to capitalize on me. It is NAI from ZZZX that hammer.

IF we are going to go down the route of "Play X would have done A as Town" I would say ZZZX would have provided their reads in the same post as their hammer vote. Doing that is highly efficient and kills two birds with one stone. What is the Town motive for ZZZX NOT to do it that way? Besides that, if we look at the post in isolation of just ZZZX hammering, it is NAI, not Townie.

Except you know it is more complicated than that. I have played with you before in Gistou you were in a hydra and strongman killed me. You are a logical thinker so for YOU being provided with objective facts and not evaluating is pinging me. ZZX on the other hand is a spam poster. Yet you tunnel him for it when as an objective player that hammer is NAI at flipless as the argument can easily be made scum don't want attention.

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Don't want to waste time talking about why my townread's read reasoning was weak in one post while I have catching up to do. Once I'm caught up remind me if it's that important.

I didn't answer the question CAUSE I WAS VLA

THAT makes me scum?

Jesus math even you are better than this

I can't re-evaluate when there's no new info. I'm just going to re-read the thread the same way I read it the first time.

Correct. This makes ZZX a pocket though not scum.

If ZZX was a scum buddy Infinity plays differently and he needs someone to drive the town badly.
You've since been back and still didn't answer that question tho.

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LQ even distancing doesn't make sense because there's no way of knowing the first scum unless you do unflipped associations.

Again this is why flipless mafia is all about associations and using the first lynches to guide that.

Flipless is played differently than flipped and if someone tries to use flipful advice in a flipless then they are shitting you.

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VC 3.2

LaLight (2) - Infinity 324, ZZZX
Infinity 324 (1) - moonbird
ZZZX (2) - LicketyQuickety, LaLight
LicketyQuickety (1) - Alisae

Not Voting - GuiltyLion

Deadline is in (expired on 2017-05-20 18:08:44)

I forgot to announce yesterday but 2 days has been added to the deadline due to replacement.
If the deadline runs out before I find the replacement, the deadline will be frozen.

Second of all Alisae can't be scum unless with ZZX or LaLight otherwise they could be convinced since no one is fucking declaring L-1.

This means Infinity324 and LQ or ZZX and LaLight are the only possible teams here.

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Unflipped associations have a pretty high chance of being wrong given that games are balanced around random lynches.

Ubflipped associations is the entirety of flipless mafia.

We have no "proof" of anything except one or more of Not Mafia and duppin are Town.

Everything else is based on unflipped associations. Stop saying that shit in flipless.

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Again you're using flipful mafia rules, in a flipless game. Where if you actually bothered to address my question and answer it you would have said ZZX from your POV is scum based on where your vote is.

Any player who is categorically proven wrong yet doesn't change their reads or provide analysis into doing so is scum.

Infinity is scum for being off both wagons and sheeping/working with ZZX despite calling him a scumread. This makes LaLight Town by that virtue alone. I still notice you say I didn't give reasons when this is literally what I said above too.

You are scum when despite being shown ZZX is a scum pocket and despite being shown evidence you were wrong somewhere before in prior days you keep trucking along as if nothing changed. You attack Infinity yet never Vote him and yet you say Duppin was likely town and so then defending Town would not be stupid.

Join me on Infinity or scum claim more. Your choice.

Minus the points against me in this posts, I really like this. You can be Town. Bringing in new shit to analyze is usually a Townie behavior.

If you really like it you'd quit voting LaLight/ZZX and join me on infinity.

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Unflipped associations have a pretty high chance of being wrong given that games are balanced around random lynches.

Ubflipped associations is the entirety of flipless mafia.

We have no "proof" of anything except one or more of Not Mafia and duppin are Town.

Everything else is based on unflipped associations. Stop saying that shit in flipless.

Nope. You just don't use associations.

Then you literally have no reason to scumread anyone.

Even the objective fact ZZX hammered is an association because you are assuming associations about ZZX if you wish to use that to scumread him. Any scumread and reasons in flipless is rooted in associations. I am just transparent about it. It takes a different type of play in flipless.

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Why am I scum :/

Because your analysis is off and you fight against the duppin wagon.

You are likely scum with Infinity based on this post here.

That's an association read which shouldn't be done in a flipless game. I hardly even do flip analysis in a normal game, how you gunna do it in a flipless game?

Association should be done even more so in a flipless game.

In a flipless game you see who says what and doesn't back it up.

Flipless is all about the associations. Otherwise there is zilch Togo on.

OK, you clearly see things the complete opposite way that I do regarding flipless games. The way I see it is all we have is whether someone does things that are Scummy to and in itself - associations mean zilch because we don't know what lynches are correct or not correct with any kind of certainty at all. Your argument HAS to regress to what my argument is because otherwise you wouldn't be able to make associations - because the initial association read is based on how Townie or Scummy a player played that was lynched. Like you are dumb for not getting this. Get on my level.

Calling me dumb is not a way to convince me my assessment is wrong.

You are categorically refusing to answer who is Town of Not_Mafia and Duppin. One or more HAVE to be Town. And then from that basing your reads. Instead you are acting as if that never happened.

Instead you call me stupid when I directly refuse your reason ZZX should be lynched namely the hammer.

I am not going to "Get on your level" because that requires disregarding your shitty play implying there would be a day three then your bullshit attack on infinity for defending someone you townread Duppin.

Bro, we don't have any clues as to which one of ZZZX or NM or both are Town. We only know that at least one has to be. That said, I now see you point on reading associations based on narrowing down who is Town based on flips. I just thing its impossible to tell if Scum have any idea what they are doing at all. Maybe I am biased because I am

so good at distancing,

but I figure if I can create not ties to

my buddies,

then other people can do it too. We will never know for certain which flips are what and that's my real point.

Stop using flipful thinking in flipless.
People aren't going to have 100% concrete proof this person is scum. You have to see who is evaluating and who isn't and if those pushes make sense or not. The "right"ness of the push isn't so much the question it is whether attempts to re-evaluate based in new information is.
Playing flipless takes a different mind set. There is no confirmed cop no anything like that in this vanilla game. Suggesting hard core things like "you can't be sure so you're wrong" is indicative of flipful thinking. Until you look at who could be teamed up together flipless will eat you alive.

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And we actually DO have clues.

Not_Mafia's ISO was naked. Due to the speed of the wagon Not Mafia was likely town.
Duppin based on their skimmed ISO is Town for the sheer number of words damn.

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If the game continues on as I suspect it will we will have objective proof two of the three of NM,Duppin, and person lynched today hopefully LQ or Infinity would be Town. Possibly three.

However with conf Town in Alisae and myself (I know you all won't say conf because you haven't played flipless enough blah blah) very likely town Alisae and myself then we just form a town block and own this.

I hate Town blocks in flipful. In flipless they are awesome.

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And we actually DO have clues.

Not_Mafia's ISO was naked. Due to the speed of the wagon Not Mafia was likely town.
Duppin based on their skimmed ISO is Town for the sheer number of words damn.

Effort =/= alignment

This applies to both flips.

Oooh he finally speaks about Not Mafia and Duppin.

Tell me what are your reads on them

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Yes I agree ZZX and Duppin are not likely scum together. That would be dumb and while ZZX is a spam poster ZZX doesn't seem the type to make dumb plays.

This is why you scumread each person then. Gun to your head: which is Town and why? I don't want a summary of why you scumread them then. I want you to analyze and make a gut call which is Town and which is scum (if any).

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If the game continues on as I suspect it will we will have objective proof two of the three of NM,Duppin, and person lynched today hopefully LQ or Infinity would be Town. Possibly three.

However with conf Town in Alisae and myself (I know you all won't say conf because you haven't played flipless enough blah blah) very likely town Alisae and myself then we just form a town block and own this.

I hate Town blocks in flipful. In flipless they are awesome.

Yeah, you are going to have to explain how Alisae and yourself are cleared.

Along with this, please detail the games you have played that were flipless. I have played one fully flipless game and one or two games that were partial flips.

They were mainly f2f games (and thus can't link sorry). In those games you specifically had to notice reasoning and if someone was applying a certain type of thinking to their words and votes. The only flipless game I have here is inception Mafia. While it was sort of flipless and not 100% flipless managed to stall until close to end game when the setup was broken.

The main examples on MafiaScum are complete mafia sweeps. Because people have an "expectation" there is one way to hunt.

Most of those games were vanilla but a few had PR roles and in those cases you actually mass claim right away which will never make sense to MS players.

Alisae and I are cleared because two wagons are on L-1.

There are only two scum.
Therefore we cannot be scum with both ZZX and LaLight. Fact.
If scum we would be convinced or interacting with those wagons to start to be convinced rather than our own in order to move to LyLO without a scum flip unless in Duppin/Not Mafia.

However for reasons explained those two are likely Town. Therefore we are Town.

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Yes I agree ZZX and Duppin are not likely scum together. That would be dumb and while ZZX is a spam poster ZZX doesn't seem the type to make dumb plays.

This is why you scumread each person then. Gun to your head: which is Town and why? I don't want a summary of why you scumread them then. I want you to analyze and make a gut call which is Town and which is scum (if any).

Between who?

Not Mafia and Duppin.

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viewtopic.php?f=110&t=64325

Fyi flipless game I recommend people look at.

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VC 3.2

LaLight (2) - Infinity 324, ZZZX
Infinity 324 (1) - moonbird
ZZZX (2) - LicketyQuickety, LaLight
LicketyQuickety (1) - Alisae

Not Voting - GuiltyLion

Deadline is in (expired on 2017-05-20 18:08:44)

I forgot to announce yesterday but 2 days has been added to the deadline due to replacement.
If the deadline runs out before I find the replacement, the deadline will be frozen.

Derp missed Guilty Lion.

Point taken. Fine Alisae myself and Guilty lion are not a team in anyway.

[MathBlade]

@MathBlade, you are a lot better at this game than I remember from you.

Thank you.

I have played a lot of flipless mafia.

Almost never played forum mafia after a shitty start on another site.

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I am trying to take common flipless arguments and translate them into flipful for everyone.

So yes I see what you did.

I am going to shut up so people don't have mountains to read but then I expect you to show me thoughts LQ as if Not Mafia is town. And how that changes things.

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@MathBlade, you are a lot better at this game than I remember from you.

Thank you.

I have played a lot of flipless mafia.

Almost never played forum mafia after a shitty start on another site.

I've identified the reason for the initial conflict we had on what is the optimal way to play flipless.

I tend to gravitate more toward Scum hunting, while you tend to gravitate toward concrete data like VCA and other deductive means.

I admit my way is more subjective, but prolly leaves less room for Scum to wriggle out of getting lynched based on Scum properly distancing and the rare bus you might see in flipless. Basically, this is how I play every game - I don't really look at associations because I KNOW they can be misleading and so many people misused them. I know this because even though I almost always get lynched when I play as Scum, I still have a winning record as Scum - because I make it very difficult for myself being tied to by teammates.

As scum (barring boned setups or derp mistakes) I have a high win rate as well. Basically if I ever lose as scum here it is almost always my fault. Shadowrun,1800,1841 all clean sweeps. Gistou you freaking killed me for being too townie as BP when I was trying to be confirmed as Town after decimating your entire squad while controlling night actions of said squad.

Other people can and do misuse associations. And that subjectivity bit you say you do. It is still associations. Every last drop. You're kidding yourself otherwise.

Take for example where you said I am Town because new perspective. You are making an association that new perspective is townie. When if hunting things in a flipful logical way a new perspective could mean scum wanting to change the gamestate. You are just not making an association between player a and player b. But you are making an association between my actions and an alignment. And then from that association spring boarding into other things. Mafia is about the associations. Always.

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I am trying to take common flipless arguments and translate them into flipful for everyone.

So yes I see what you did.

I am going to shut up so people don't have mountains to read but then I expect you to show me thoughts LQ as if Not Mafia is town. And how that changes things.

Using the metric you use, it only makes sense from my angle, using your metric that ZZZX is Scum here. Reason for this is that he was the first on the wagon of NM. I was the second, but I was Scum hunting other people (duppin, moonbird) rather that simply just staying on NM like ZZZX did. If duppin is Town, it makes ZZZX look really really bad and I'm not willing to rule out that duppin was Town. Also, the fact that ZZZX could have been on duppin while I was on duppin with others in D1 implies that if Duppin was Scum, there is room for ZZZX to bus hime there. Reason for this is that ZZZX didn't provide much reason for hammering other than "we need a hammer".

Thoughts?

I don't think that is where a town you would go but regardless let's go down this rabbit hole.

Assume ZZX is scum for the hammer. Okay why does he attract that suspicion on himself? Let's take a look st the VC before then:
viewtopic.php?p=9215906#p9215906

For easy reference.
The only potential wagons on that besides Duppin were ZZX and LaLight. Look at the two wagons here. So if ZZX is scum the only reason to quick hammer his buddy is if Lalight is scum with ZZX. A quick hammer of ZZX only increases the amount of attention on a slot already with attention. This is indicative of a spam poster or even laziness. Not a bus. There is no room for a ZZX bus. ZZX+LaLight case could be made but not ZZX + Duppin.

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I would like to make a distinction for everyone's sanity between reads and unflipped associations, the latter of which is between two players, assumes the alignment of one player, and should not be done. Thank you.

There isn't. Especially in flipless mafia.

You read someone for saying "blah blah blah" that is an association. If that blah blah blah has a name it is an unflipped association per everyone's standards.

I am just honest I do it.

[MathBlade]

Every case IS an unflipped association.

I think Player X is scum because post 274747 is scummy. In it their attack of player Y is bad. This is a unflipped association between X and Y and the speaker Z. Mafia is unflipped associations.

[MathBlade]

I would like to make a distinction for everyone's sanity between reads and unflipped associations, the latter of which is between two players, assumes the alignment of one player, and should not be done. Thank you.

There isn't. Especially in flipless mafia.

You read someone for saying "blah blah blah" that is an association. If that blah blah blah has a name it is an unflipped association per everyone's standards.

I am just honest I do it.

There's a VERY BIG DIFFERENCE between:
x did blah x is scum
and
y did blah, y is scum, y and x are associated because blah so x is scum.

Nope. There sure isn't.

[MathBlade]

Yeah your scum LQ or at the very worst conf biased.

ZZX is town. Both Duppin and Not Mafia are likely town. Alisae is town.

Seriously #doneForTheCalendarNight

[MathBlade]

Every case IS an unflipped association.

I think Player X is scum because post 274747 is scummy. In it their attack of player Y is bad. This is a unflipped association between X and Y and the speaker Z. Mafia is unflipped associations.

Unless you assume y is town to make the point, it's acceptable.

An attack isn't bad if they're scum.
Again it is the same fucking thing.

Any case is an unflipped association and the more you hold to what you believe to be right the more we will see clean sweeps like the one I gave.

[MathBlade]

I would like to make a distinction for everyone's sanity between reads and unflipped associations, the latter of which is between two players, assumes the alignment of one player, and should not be done. Thank you.

There isn't. Especially in flipless mafia.

You read someone for saying "blah blah blah" that is an association. If that blah blah blah has a name it is an unflipped association per everyone's standards.

I am just honest I do it.

There's a VERY BIG DIFFERENCE between:
x did blah x is scum
and
y did blah, y is scum, y and x are associated because blah so x is scum.

Nope. There sure isn't.

Read my previous post... People do not act rationally in a vacuum. That's why associations with other players is erroneous.

I read it. I am unconvinced. I see you and I both making associations.

Seriously so done.

[MathBlade]

Yeah your scum LQ or at the very worst conf biased.

ZZX is town. Both Duppin and Not Mafia are likely town. Alisae is town.

Seriously #doneForTheCalendarNight

That's not going to fly here, sorry. Pick another game to argue your semantics over associations with other people.

Play in a game where I am Scum and you will see how associations between players lie.

Already did in Gistou and nailed you D1.

[MathBlade]

Pedit: Mafia what now?

What the hell are you on about?

Translating Alisae speak: He's asking about the Championships.

[MathBlade]

I like you are re-evaluating GL.
I don't like how you suddenly decided to do it.
Can you explain more about GL to me and what you're seeing? That might help me a bit.

What I am seeing about GL is that a lot of his accusations are based on subjective things that may or may not be true. I see him looking into the motivations of people, which is good, its just not rooted in anything concrete. It has a lot to do with how and what he is pushing. The arguments he uses for why people are Scum can be seen a reachy or tin foily, which I don't like.

What prompted me wanting to give GL another look is that I felt like I was biasing him as town a little too much. I was right on that, I was confbiasing him as Town far more than he deserved. I tend to reevaluate people more as Town than I do as Scum. In fact, I reevaluate people so much as Town, that it actually works to my detriment sometimes. People I had as Scum and were Scum I change to a Town read. I second guess my Town reads as well. I am just trying to fine tune my game before the Mafia Championships.

If you're really helping me lynch your Infinity scumread why are you talking more about GuiltyLion?
Make me a case on Infinity please.
Also still waiting on your re-evaluation:)

[MathBlade]

Distancing from the wagon but Kaboom (161, 180)

Saying n_m is the same as town and scum isn't distancing from the wagon, because it was a policy wagon.

Calling everyone town is a scumtell actually. I mean, I tended to do it a lot in my earlier games.

Just because it's a tell for you doesn't mean it works for other people. Alisae can attest to the fact that I often have too many townreads as town. (hi alisae!)

This is really interesting. Especially "You responses are good but the read progressions are still weird to me and the gut feeling you're scum won't go away. So idk what to do.". The same unsurity about me just as about everyone else.

Again more townreading and more

A lot of townreading. A lot of doubts. Not a lot of confidence in what he's posting. Eiter unsure town or scum. LeanScum here.

You're probably right that I'm doubting myself too much, but again that doesn't make me scum. I struggle on d1 a lot because I don't find scum tend to do a lot of scummy things so early. I'm also just naturally not very confident in my reads. It's something I'm working on, for sure.

Now your turn. You call me scum for things like townreading everyone and doubting myself, which I guess could be scum traits but could also easily come from town. My question is why in this particular case are they more likely to be scum traits? Do you think in this game scum are more likely to not find people to push? Or not have very strong reads? Do you think town would have more solid scumreads? Why?

It doesn't feel like you're really trying to solve me, but just looking at my behavior on the surface.

@Infinity why the hell are you still going on about LaLight when you e been told it is a bad wagon and ZZX is on it and from your POV you should be reevaluating? Until I see you explain the concerns I have about you and ZZX on the same wagon I don't give a damn what your PBPA says.

[MathBlade]

Maaaaaaaaaaaath
GL is also scums. ;~;

Okay LQ Infinity and GL cannot all be scum.
What makes you say LQ and GL over Infinity?

[MathBlade]

Can you tell us how you get reads? There is not an awful lot of explanation here.

LQ why did you care so much about me not explaining why the readslist was poorly justified when you agreed with me? It's not like scum!me is not going to be able to come up with an explanation why I don't like a readslist when it's obviously not very in-depth.

Sigh. I guess it doesn't matter so much but I was really annoyed by you and math continuing to push on that.

PEdit: Because ZZZX looks very town in this exchange and lalight looks very scum. I could try to reread the thread, but that would just put me back where I started most likely. ZZZX was never a scumread of mine anyway, just a PoE suspect. Him being town and lalight being scum makes a hell of a lot more sense that the other way around.

Why must it be either or? Why can't both be Town?

[MathBlade]

Alisae I am phone posting so bear with me here but the short answer is "Infinity lacks followup/follow through"

Infinity says his guides are guided more by VCA. No such VCA is given shared or alluded to and I have not seen such in any game I have been with him on. He asks a lot of questions and barely responds anything substantial and then has taken to tunneling someone for a long ass time who he has been tunneling before as scum with those two dead people and he just categorically is wrong and does so to the exclusion of everything else. He did this a lot in Poker Mafia (where he fake claimed cop)

I can't stand sometimes in late game mafia how people don't re-evaluate overnight in the face of concrete information. It drives me nuts.

[MathBlade]

The VCA is also rather damning in his case too. (See Mastina's guide to VCA)

LQ also is also doing the same misinterpret stick from viewtopic.php?p=8574298#p8574298 here and Gistou.

[MathBlade]

viewtopic.php?p=8198767#p8198767

Where you (or Suzune) did the same "misinterpret" or "you have nothing" dance.

Again your reevaluation assuming one of Not Mafia or Duppin or both are Town.

[MathBlade]

viewtopic.php?p=8634717#p8634717

You are more aggressive give no fucks as Town imho.

I watched that game specifically because I almost replaced into it.

[MathBlade]

viewtopic.php?p=8198767#p8198767

Where you (or Suzune) did the same "misinterpret" or "you have nothing" dance.

Again your reevaluation assuming one of Not Mafia or Duppin or both are Town.

I am not reevaluating based on the fact that one or both of those players have to be Town. I'm not looking at it from that angle, sorry to disappoint.

Why won't you re-evaluate from a stance that HAS to be true?
That seems highly illogical and you yourself are a logical player.

[MathBlade]

Why must it be either or? Why can't both be Town?

Because who is scum in that case? Momo looked very towny to me. Duppin looked very towny to me. LQ is obvious town. Guilty I have a few doubts on but I think he's more likely to be town.

It's possible n_m was scum but other than that I don't know who it would be.

PEdit: Where did I mention VCA?

Do you think tunneling is scummy for me? How am I tunneling to the exclusion of everything else when I've mentioned my read on every slot multiple times?

How am I "barely responding anything substantial"?

Mentioning a read doesn't mean you're not in a tunnel. Anyone reading the thread can tell I am tunneling you and LQ. I could list all the other players as Town but that doesn't make me any more "not tunneling"

LaLight has a partner alive per what you are thinking. I am entirely underwhelmed by your case on LaLight and have no interest in a LaLight wagon even separate from everything else. So who could LaLight be partnered with?

[MathBlade]

Alisae I am phone posting so bear with me here but the short answer is "Infinity lacks followup/follow through"

Infinity says his guides are guided more by VCA. No such VCA is given shared or alluded to and I have not seen such in any game I have been with him on. He asks a lot of questions and barely responds anything substantial and then has taken to tunneling someone for a long ass time who he has been tunneling before as scum with those two dead people and he just categorically is wrong and does so to the exclusion of everything else. He did this a lot in Poker Mafia (where he fake claimed cop)

I can't stand sometimes in late game mafia how people don't re-evaluate overnight in the face of concrete information. It drives me nuts.

A. I will wait for a long answer then
B. Math, how do I do VCA in this game? Please explain it to me, because Alisaes don't understand =(
Why do you think it's a scum tunnel rather then a town tunnel? I feel like Inf would be more agreeable as scum. You're forgetting that town can be wrong too.
C. We're in late game?


Also, here. Feel free to chew on this.
I am townread inf because of a few reasons.
First off, I like how they responeded to ZZZX's 86. If someone is lynched, and you think they were a towny that was lynched, you have an idea that their reads were made genuinely. Inf knows this, so instead of just going with ZZZX's "THE DEAD'S READS ARE SHIT" he presses it and is like "Yo, if the reads are formed genuinely, they should be taken into account." This feels moreso like someone who is trying to genuinely evaluate the game.

I also like 156. While I don't agree with what he's saying, it looks like it's coming from someone who is trying to form reads and hunt. I don't care about the first line, I care about the 2nd. The first line I just don't agree with. The 2nd is a really good point that's being brought up which I like.

Lastly I like 397. I like Inf's response to the pressure here. It seems like he thinks GL is being unreasonable here, so he's attempting to reason with GL to attempt to get GL on the right track. Not to mention I like their stance on dupin. He's using dupin as a way to attempt to solve the game.

Flipless VCA is a unique beast. Mainly you start from confirmed facts and work outward.

Okay one of Not_Mafia or Duppin have to be Town or both. Based on that look at how many people are on both wagons.

There are 9 players in the game. How many players on both wagons : 3 or 4 have to double check my notes.
How many players on one wagon but not the other.
How many players on neither.
What was their relative position on the wagon? Where they vocal or a limp lynch?

You go through a list of questions like that generated before game start and then start seeing a narrative develop.
Go back and see where any clashes of that narrative are and poke until things align.

Short version of flipless VCA

[MathBlade]

Math why aren't you responding to my post ;~;

I am phone posting give me a minute please.

[MathBlade]

In regards to late game: Yes we are.

We have 7 alive.
This means we have at most 4 more days left.
The majority of posts in a mafia game come from the first half of days. So this is getting close to end game.

[MathBlade]

86 sounds good in context except Infinity was a hypocrite.

He never actually interacted with Not Mafia and Duppin's reads despite saying they should be considered even after I poked him for who is Town and why. Instead he continues his LaLight charge.

I am not a fan of 156 either. He doesn't follow up on his own shit either? Second of all LaLight could have easily looked up a LQ scum meta post. This looks like picking on for the sake of picking on. I attack and drop numerous things in a game. It is a matter of A) That thought could have been addressed in some other way and B) if someone genuinely is still evaluating that person.

I get neither from that post.

In 397 I agree with GuiltyLion.

[MathBlade]

Math why aren't you responding to my post ;~;

I am phone posting give me a minute please.

dw about it.
You just responded to it, so I'm going to do that now.

Is it possible that Inf simply just, doesn't know how to approach flipless VCA? Becuase it seems like you aren't taking that into account as a possibility.

I am not because when someone claims to use it in their reads I assume they know how to do it in the style Mafia game they are in. Or it wouldn't impact their reads.

[MathBlade]

Okay. you're convincible.

I think you're scum less now. I am still town tho, even with a weak reasoning.

Okay. you're convincible.

I think you're scum less now. I am still town tho, even with a weak reasoning.

my issue wasnt the strength of reasoning but the intent behind it . thats the point

I didn't intent to lynch town. I intented to lynch you who i thought is scum

This is a hallmark of a TVT wagon here.

[MathBlade]

Spoiler:

If we get 2 correct townreads collectively we win. LQ is one, I think momo might be another.

also I think this is worth discussing

From a neutral perspective, the correct number of collective townreads is

three

. If we have 2 correct collective townreads, we can still mislynch a 3rd person in 5p LYLO to a scumteam of 2.

I see the following scenarios where Infinity gets this wrong:

1) Infinity is town and he included himself in hypothetical 5 person LYLO and assumed he wasn't going to get lynched, he only needs 2 correct townreads
^ I find this somewhat likely, but the problem is he should still be worrying about whether he would be mislynched or not

2) Infinity is town and he assumed we lynched scum already
^ I don't think this is likely at all, Infinity wasn't particularly scumreading either of the lynches and I don't see a reason to be so confident that we lynched scum yet

3) Infinity is scum and we lynched his partner and he slipped in assuming LYLO happens with 3p left
^ I'm not really inclined to buy this though it's loosely possible

4) Infinity is scum and he had a perspective slip here because he's thinking from the perspective of him (scum) + 2 townreads (town) + his partner being a scenario where they "lynch scum" (but actually mislynch a townie and win).
^ This is the most likely explanation outside of 1), I guess

I'm kinda in a coinflip between 1 and 4. Are there other explanations I'm missing here? I've been trying to think from this perspective the whole game, but I've been focused on identifying three correct townreads, so the disconnect here is something I want to call out. What do you guys think?

Oh right

I was thinking in terms of 3p lylo since I'm used to games going to 3p lylo I guess.

Thinking GL is town for this.

Inf, can you be more transparent with me?
Because right now you're just giving me "It's a read" and nothing more.
If you're going to do it in your readlist, fine. I can wait.
I just want that readlist though

Right, I just prefer to get caught up first and go in depth later.

Bottom line is that what guilty focuses on is more likely for town to focus on. He's nitpicking but he does that as town and the things he nitpicks on seem like what town!GL would find important. This post for example, I could definitely see town finding that comment possibly AI and I find it unlikely scum would go in so much depth there.

PEdit @alisae: yeah I worded that badly. First of all there's the fact that lalight is scummy, which is obviously a big part of it. But even if I somehow knew lalight was town, I'd reconsider my zzzx townread because I just don't see who else would be scum. So that's why I told mathblade I doubt both are town.

Your catchup had less than a PAGE and your response was "have to catchup" immediately. Wtf dude?

[MathBlade]

In regards to late game: Yes we are.

We have 7 alive.
This means we have at most 4 more days left.
The majority of posts in a mafia game come from the first half of days. So this is getting close to end game.

I disagree. We are at late game when we have one mislynch left. This post rubs me the wrong way all over.

*Hops in the shower grabs some soap and rubs it all over*

Oh yeah let the post really sink in.

Look at post counts. Regardless of the speed of the game almost all posts come in the beginning. Mafia to me is like chess. Day one you have your opening. Day two you have your mid game where Town and scum jostle for control of the center of the thread. Day three plus is end game. If players don't react to a pawn or a knight falling they aren't likely playing the same game and thus are likely scum.

[MathBlade]

Okay. you're convincible.

I think you're scum less now. I am still town tho, even with a weak reasoning.

Yeah at this point lalight is probably just defeated scum and not waffly town. His mindset earlier seemed so locked in.

Don't want to waste time talking about why my townread's read reasoning was weak in one post while I have catching up to do. Once I'm caught up remind me if it's that important.

I think duppin and n_m were probably both town. Maybe n_m was scum.

Explain how you are caught up in 654 and then all of a sudden not caught up in 669?

[MathBlade]

He never actually interacted with Not Mafia and Duppin's reads despite saying they should be considered even after I poked him for who is Town and why. Instead he continues his LaLight charge.

I am not a fan of 156 either. He doesn't follow up on his own shit either? Second of all LaLight could have easily looked up a LQ scum meta post. This looks like picking on for the sake of picking on. I attack and drop numerous things in a game. It is a matter of A) That thought could have been addressed in some other way and B) if someone genuinely is still evaluating that person.

How was my whole conversation with duppin about his reads when he was alive not interacting with his reads? I didn't take into account n_m's reads because there was no reasoning there.

Where did I not follow up on something? Also lalight told me he didn't have time, which was ok, but if he did I'd expect town!him to remember and follow up because he'd really care about what he asked about.

PEdit: mathblade I'm still catching up lolol

It isn't about that.

It is about going back and looking when they are dead.
You said that is a good thing at game open.

Why haven't you?

[MathBlade]

How am I caught up in 654

Because you are quoting posts and saying "at this point".
"At this point" means right now.

If you weren't caught up then you were lying about saying "at this point"

So you were verifiably by your own words caught up.

[MathBlade]

Because I took into consideration duppin's reads when he was alive, and that's enough. Nothing has changed with his reads since then, so...

PEdit: Why are you assuming "at this point" means "right now" as opposed to "at this point in the catchup"? How could you possibly think I was caught up when I was quoting a post from multiple pages ago?

Because you quit catching up and went off line and didn't say anything about still catching up.
You have caught up with larger bigger threads faster.
I feel this "catching up" is a ploy. Where are you at in it?

[MathBlade]

And that LQ is why I rarely lose at scum. If my neck is out I played early game or mid game wrong.

Look at Game of Thrones game that finished. I made a fuckup in that in the beginning should have been able to coast but that small mistake in early game lead to ABR catching me. Take Shadowrun or 1800, those I played well. Not a person pinged me until it was too late in Shadowrun. In 1800 Titus was literally convinced the entire scum team was Town. In a flipless game you have to look for the little markers scum leave with every lynch.

If scum are forcing a lynch anywhere they are already losing.

[MathBlade]

so you're saying that if I'm lynched you'll start doing town stuff?

If you are town, your aim in this game is not trying to prove we are all dumb and stuff but play the way town will win, do you understand that? Or are you personally offended?

because that would be too bad

1 day before the deadline. Why isn't here anyone. Moonbird? Momo?

aaaa what if lalight is town

Ok but I think this is fakeable by scum.

If you're saying something is doable by the other alignment it means you yourself are not as sure of it either way.

It is okay to townread LaLight. Give yourself permission.

[MathBlade]

Good night awesome people.

[MathBlade]

OK did a little poking around and compared ISO's for LaLight. What I found is that LaLight is much more self assured in this game than he was in the the other game.

Here is his ISO for that game so you can try and see what I see: viewtopic.php?t=71483&f=2&st=0&sk=t&sd= ... er_sort=Go

So saying you're an experienced player is NOT self assured?

[MathBlade]

If you're saying something is doable by the other alignment it means you yourself are not as sure of it either way.

It is okay to townread LaLight. Give yourself permission.

Ok let me expand on this. The sentiment in 586 is one I've felt before as town. I hate it when people get frustrated and give up instead of trying to work with me. So naturally I'm going have some doubts when I see that. But I can definitely see that from scum too who's pretending to be cooperative. Scum!lalight just dropped a whole case on zzzx, presumably to avoid the argument. I think lalight would at least want to keep open the option of getting zzzx on his side.

I also like that he was paying attention to the deadline, but it's a relatively easy thing to fake all things considered. You just have to stop for a sec and think what town would do in that case

I just think that all of this is small compared to lalight just not trying to sort people.

PEdit: ok I'll check that out LQ

You realize me stopping and thinking about town would do in those cases has me pointing to LQ and you right?
LQ's entire point of why you both are Town is that I am incapable of doing that correctly for you two yet I am all of a sudden capable of doing it to match what you want me to say?

Go talk with LQ and work together. This amount of dissonance between the two of you is pretty bad while agreeing on most of your reads.

[MathBlade]

VOTE: LicketyQuick

Okay Alisae here you go.

[MathBlade]

People as a courtesy in the future please say where you are caught up TO.

Don't assume people know. It is a common scum tactic to be continually "catching up" or "not notice something" in that state. It also provides accountability which helps Town.

I will be less active in the next three days. I know I owe Alisae a more indepth VCA post in flipless. I think that is all I owe. If I need to give something else call it out and I will do what I can.

[MathBlade]

Who do you scumread GL?

[MathBlade]

Who do you scumread GL?

I haven't finished catching up yet, but Infinity is scumread number 1, then ZZZX. I think Alisae/LaLight are my strongest townreads

Awesome that makes sense with flipless VCA. It isn't how I see it but it is at least a possible world. Infinity and ZZX being on the same wagon should give you pause though.

Gotta go!

[MathBlade]

Because I scumread both and we need to consolidate.

If LQ had stuck with Infinity to L-1 it would have given me pause.

However LQ didn't and then never spoke about Infinity. LQ was trying to placate me.

[MathBlade]

VC 3.2

LaLight (2) - Infinity 324, ZZZX
Infinity 324 (1) - moonbird
ZZZX (2) - LicketyQuickety, LaLight
LicketyQuickety (1) - Alisae

Not Voting - GuiltyLion

Deadline is in (expired on 2017-05-20 18:08:44)

I forgot to announce yesterday but 2 days has been added to the deadline due to replacement.
If the deadline runs out before I find the replacement, the deadline will be frozen.

This was the last official VC as far as I can tell

Here's what I have

GL UNOFFICIAL VC

LaLight (2) - Infinity 324, ZZZX
ZZZX (1) - LaLight
LicketyQuickety (2) - Alisae, MathBlade

Not Voting - GuiltyLion, LicketyQuickety

this is not looking good in hopes for a lynch

I think at this point I'd rather compromise on LQ than LaLight but is it really going to be impossible to lynch Infinity or ZZZX here?

VOTE: ZZZX

Bad vote here.

ZZZX is probably pocketed.

[MathBlade]

Deadline is in 3 hours people!

[MathBlade]

Oh wait 2 days were added.

[MathBlade]

I thought this was including the 2 days but I'm not sure

ZZZX is pocketed by who? Why are you townreading him?

Infinity is using ZZX to get a mislynch.
By his posts as I pointed out Infinity doesn't actually believe LaLight is scum proportional too the amounts Infinity talks about LaLight.

Furthermore in order to get two mislynches scum have to be smart. Namely therefore they won't one two punch any given wagon. Extrapolating back eliminates a lot of teams.

[MathBlade]

I am also a They please.

[MathBlade]

Votecount! (1.2)

Not_Mafia (1) - ZZZX
momo (2) - duppin, moonbird
duppin (3) - GuiltyLion, LicketyQuickety, Not_Mafia

Not Voting - LaLight, momo, Infinity 324

With

9

votes,

5

to lynch

The deadline is in (expired on 2017-05-10 22:09:40).

momo has been prodded.

Guilty Lion and LQ likely not a team here.

[MathBlade]

I am also a They please.

I'm sorry about that, I'll try to be be more careful going forward.

So you think it's unlikely that ZZZX is scum with Infinity pocketed? I agree with you that Inf's vote on LaLight is worse than ZZZX's but I think Infinity has had a few more moments of seeming towniness in isolation whereas ZZZX is basically just doing his 1v1 and not much else outside of it.

I don't think they're a team together but I think there's a scum between them.

I don't think ZZX is scum here. Too much attention.

Scum!ZZX was already lurking. The only other wagons were on ZZX and LaLight and one vote each. No way that is a scum hammer. People are saying naked hammer must be scum. I have done naked hammers twice. Both on scum and I got scumread for it and both times wrong. Once I did it for Town reasons and the other I couldn't count.

Namely I think ZZX has outlived his usefulness to scum and tunneling that bad is a town trait not a scum one.

[MathBlade]

Therefore this is not Scum!ZZX

[MathBlade]

Math why aren't you responding to my post ;~;

I am phone posting give me a minute please.

dw about it.
You just responded to it, so I'm going to do that now.

Is it possible that Inf simply just, doesn't know how to approach flipless VCA? Becuase it seems like you aren't taking that into account as a possibility.

I am not because when someone claims to use it in their reads I assume they know how to do it in the style Mafia game they are in. Or it wouldn't impact their reads.

Now you're just holding Inf to high expectations. I tend to use VCA from time to time, and even I didn't know how to use it in a flipless game until you explained it to me. I think you're tunneling Inf here and holding him up to higher expectations.

--

In regards to late game: Yes we are.

We have 7 alive.
This means we have at most 4 more days left.
The majority of posts in a mafia game come from the first half of days. So this is getting close to end game.

I disagree. We are at late game when we have one mislynch left. This post rubs me the wrong way all over.

There here reads AI to me, so how does this rub you the wrong way? I kinda think the paranoia is fake here since I'm not seeing you follow up on it.

--

viewtopic.php?p=8634717#p8634717

You are more aggressive give no fucks as Town imho.

I watched that game specifically because I almost replaced into it.

My aggression depends on the climate of the game. I am not always aggressive as Town. When I am not aggressive as Town, I play a lot better actually.

Why is the climate different here?

Because MathBlade is taking the lead so far and arguments are being based more on concrete things. If it was a game where I was trying to argue how Player X is Scum because they said the wrong thing and their perspective was off, yeah, that's when you will see me more livid. Its also past my bedtime. Its 2:18 AM, I should be asleep but I am up playing Mafia. I don't plan on going to bed until the thread dies down because this is just too much fun.

Was the climate different before MathBlade came around? If so, how and why?
Also I'm getting sleepy myself, so I might sleep as well
gnite

Yeah, the climate was different. It was a much slower paced game. We only had like 10 pages for all of Day 1. I was also focussing more on other games, which could have attributed to the pace of the game being slower combined with how I laid out how we should approach this game. I was emphasising giving good posts, so that could be why people weren't posting as much. That's prolly not the full reasons, but it could have been a factor.

You're confusing me LQ
Are you refering to this game, or the game you played with Math and are referencing?
If it's this game, why didn't you try to make it a bit faster instead of keeping it the way the gamestate was?

--

How am I caught up in 654

Because you are quoting posts and saying "at this point".
"At this point" means right now.

If you weren't caught up then you were lying about saying "at this point"

So you were verifiably by your own words caught up.

Math...This is so subtle. I would never notice something like this. I think the wording here is really NAI. I don't even know how you saw something like this, but tbh, I just think town wouldn't notice this at all because of how little it is.

--

Okay, I change my mind. Maybe ZZZX could be LQ's buddy. This post is basicly retracting the town points I gave them for pointing something out that LQ did. Now that looks like "WOOPS, I MADE A BAD PLAY, LET'S TAKE IT BACK."

Ali I don't see how this re-evaluation affects your reads. You say this and go back to calling guilty obvscum. Why?

With my catchup at the time I had a LQ and GL scumteam because as I reading a long, they strongly townread each other and it seemed like

Okay ZZZX vs LaLight is a TvT.

{ZZZX, LaLight, Moon}
{Inf}
{GL}
{VOTE: LQ}

Why is lalight town?

You get a towncase later.

--

VOTE: LicketyQuick

Okay Alisae here you go.

YAAAAAAAAAAAAY MATH SAVES THE DAY!

--

Okay then.

@GuiltyLion

- Do you like LQ's attempt to re-evaluate and how he did it?
Pedit: Mafia what now?

He should be re-evaluating me, because frankly I have been slacking a lot this game, so I like that he did it. But I agree with you that the execution looked forced, because I don't see how townreading/arguing with Mathblade would change his view of the game state. If LQ thinks Infinity is scum (who he was voting when he re-evaluated), I don't see where the second-guessing me came from.

His posts about it feel relatively transparent though so I'm going to see where he goes with it as I continue reading, but this is where I am as of when I hit your question.

I'm not seeing him do anything with it currently so...

--

I think its a town slip for all purposes.

I totally agree with this, does anyone disagree with calling MathBlade town? Does anyone think that is a slip/mistake he's willing/capable of faking as scum?

I'm here ish

Town to Scum
MathBlade
LaLight
Alisae
LQ
Inf
ZZZX

I'm starting to wonder if one of the first two wagons was on scum after all, because now I'm starting to feel like everyone is towntelling to a degree. I wonder if it's Inf/Duppin

VC 3.2

LaLight (2) - Infinity 324, ZZZX
Infinity 324 (1) - moonbird
ZZZX (2) - LicketyQuickety, LaLight
LicketyQuickety (1) - Alisae

Not Voting - GuiltyLion

Deadline is in (expired on 2017-05-20 18:08:44)

I forgot to announce yesterday but 2 days has been added to the deadline due to replacement.
If the deadline runs out before I find the replacement, the deadline will be frozen.

This was the last official VC as far as I can tell

Here's what I have

GL UNOFFICIAL VC

LaLight (2) - Infinity 324, ZZZX
ZZZX (1) - LaLight
LicketyQuickety (2) - Alisae, MathBlade

Not Voting - GuiltyLion, LicketyQuickety

this is not looking good in hopes for a lynch

I think at this point I'd rather compromise on LQ than LaLight but is it really going to be impossible to lynch Infinity or ZZZX here?

VOTE: ZZZX

I feel like ZZZX and Inf is the most easiest thing to push as scum just to line up lynches. If NM (I think this is town), Dupin (I think this is town), ZZZX and Inf (I townread both of these) are all town, then you're essnetially just lining up lynches to make it to LyLo. I rather you just vote LQ, I think he's most likely scum here :p

--

Votecount! (1.2)

Not_Mafia (1) - ZZZX
momo (2) - duppin, moonbird
duppin (3) - GuiltyLion, LicketyQuickety, Not_Mafia

Not Voting - LaLight, momo, Infinity 324

With

9

votes,

5

to lynch

The deadline is in (expired on 2017-05-10 22:09:40).

momo has been prodded.

Guilty Lion and LQ likely not a team here.

Disagree. I think dupin would have required both scum to lynch him because he read as a good player to me.

Yes. I held Infinity to those high standards as he said those were his vocal point. If you said your strength cornering scum through gifs and you didn't have any gifs I would raise an eyebrow. Infinity said he is good at it so let's see it.

In regards to the game can't be Gistou that was a big game before big games became a thing.

In regards to the LQ/Guilty Lion argument it isn't about that. It is about control. Both scum being one two on a wagon day one almost never happens until Town forces it. Scum like the control and tag teaming a wagon like that is a poor strategic move. Since the game is not over after two lynches it is likely scum are not making bad moves. Therefore LQ+GL and other one two punches can be eliminated. Now that I have said this going forward it doesn't apply as much but in general that will be the case.

[MathBlade]

If you're saying something is doable by the other alignment it means you yourself are not as sure of it either way.

It is okay to townread LaLight. Give yourself permission.

Ok let me expand on this. The sentiment in 586 is one I've felt before as town. I hate it when people get frustrated and give up instead of trying to work with me. So naturally I'm going have some doubts when I see that. But I can definitely see that from scum too who's pretending to be cooperative. Scum!lalight just dropped a whole case on zzzx, presumably to avoid the argument. I think lalight would at least want to keep open the option of getting zzzx on his side.

I also like that he was paying attention to the deadline, but it's a relatively easy thing to fake all things considered. You just have to stop for a sec and think what town would do in that case

I just think that all of this is small compared to lalight just not trying to sort people.

PEdit: ok I'll check that out LQ

You realize me stopping and thinking about town would do in those cases has me pointing to LQ and you right?

LQ's entire point of why you both are Town is that I am incapable of doing that correctly for you two yet I am all of a sudden capable of doing it to match what you want me to say?

Go talk with LQ and work together. This amount of dissonance between the two of you is pretty bad while agreeing on most of your reads.

This is a blatant misrep. My read on Infinity has absolutely NOTHING to do with you at all.

That is not what I am saying.
Your main point is that I am incapable of seeing the world like you do. Mainly how you think Town would act.
Infinity is saying I can.
I am pointing out the discrepancy.

This level of discrepancy should not exist when you agree on reads in name but in reasoning you are conflicting.

[MathBlade]

Who do you scumread GL?

I haven't finished catching up yet, but Infinity is scumread number 1, then ZZZX. I think Alisae/LaLight are my strongest townreads

Awesome that makes sense with flipless VCA. It isn't how I see it but it is at least a possible world. Infinity and ZZX being on the same wagon should give you pause though.

Gotta go!

Why is it ok for GL to have Infinity and ZZZX as Scum reads but not me? And don't you dare give me that bull shit about vote counts.

Vote counts do play a role. And I have been pressuring him about that as well.

[MathBlade]

Furthermore GL is showing signs of evaluation and thought. No matter how much I push you, you have no desire to work with me based on concrete facts. When you show in interest in being grounded in truth then I show an interest in not scumreading you.

[MathBlade]

I think its a town slip for all purposes.

I totally agree with this, does anyone disagree with calling MathBlade town? Does anyone think that is a slip/mistake he's willing/capable of faking as scum?

I'm here ish

Town to Scum
MathBlade
LaLight
Alisae
LQ
Inf
ZZZX

I'm starting to wonder if one of the first two wagons was on scum after all, because now I'm starting to feel like everyone is towntelling to a degree. I wonder if it's Inf/Duppin

No, I don't think its a slip at all. I think its Infinity with his warped sense of how to play flipless.

This is funny, ha ha.

Most everyone here has a warped sense on how to play flipless.

[MathBlade]

@LQ

- Why unvote Infinity?

MathBlade

- Why switch to LQ?

I am glad you are asking this rather than just assuming I am doing it for reasons that I am not doing it for like MathBlade is doing.

I unvoted Infinity because I felt he was playing to his Town meta that I remember from this game: viewtopic.php?p=8198973&user_select%5B% ... 7#p8198973

I also like you asking about why MathBlade voted for me, because as far as I can see, he voted me without providing a case on me.

Saying I didn't provide a case doesn't make my case disappear.

This is typical LQ btw. When scumread just say there isn't anything there.

[MathBlade]

Because I scumread both and we need to consolidate.

If LQ had stuck with Infinity to L-1 it would have given me pause.

However LQ didn't and then never spoke about Infinity. LQ was trying to placate me.

You know what? Fuck you for assuming you know what I am doing. You don't and your warped sense of how to play this game is so fucking inaccurate its not even funny.

Fucking myself is quite pleasurable. Thanks for the offer to assist but I am only into chicks.

In seriousness you can call it warped but again you're not addressing my concerns. You're attacking me and hoping to shred my rep rather than actually addressing my concerns.

[MathBlade]

Because I scumread both and we need to consolidate.

If LQ had stuck with Infinity to L-1 it would have given me pause.

However LQ didn't and then never spoke about Infinity. LQ was trying to placate me.

You know what? Fuck you for assuming you know what I am doing. You don't and your warped sense of how to play this game is so fucking inaccurate its not even funny.

This is a scum post.

Fucking what? This is the epitome of a shitty post, Alisae. You don't give a single iota of why you think that is... ANYONE can quote a post and say "this is a Scum post" or "this is a Town post" Its lazy sloppy and inaccurate play and I have blacklisted people for less.

You'll have to blacklist 3/4ths of the site then.
Firebringer hunts in gifs.
Radiant Cowbells hunts in fake claims.
Titus hunts in moon logic.

And a majority of MS makes that level of a post. And it is by definition not shitty.

It is a verifiable concrete stance.
It says there is something wrong with that post.
Now if you want to argue that it needs more definition fine.
But concrete direct accountable stances are very protown.

[MathBlade]

And yes by LYLO/MYLO the game is pretty much over.

Either town has the game solved or they don't.
MyLO is a guaranteed no lynch.
Scum kill.
Then LyLO.
Step before that is maneuvering before LyLO.

It is a matter of planning out steps.
By the time endgame roles around it is one final case as to why you should win.
So yes endgame should have very little happening. If it has a lot either scum have had a lot of mislynches or someone is trying to change the gamestate when there is no reason to.

[MathBlade]

Now let me ask a random question?
Who here scumreads Alisae? Simple yes or no. If you have a maybe get a read confident enough to answer.
If you have a yes tell me why.

[MathBlade]

1) I am a They.
2) As scum that is accurate. It is either boned slot or I fuck up. Those are the only times I have lost. There wasn't ever a "well you did everything right but nothing you could do" game as scum.
As Town in flipful I usually catch almost all of the scum or none of them. I am swingy. In flipless I am pretty good but have no official stats to show.

[MathBlade]

Like.
Every single fucking game of mafia I play in nowadays.
What happens is
"Alisae finds scum."
"Alisae attempts to catch scum."
"Everyone scumreads Alisae because he's catching scum who is townread."
"Everyone lynches Alisae when he catches scum."
"Because Alisae can't get his reads lynched, scum then proceeds to win the game."

Maybe I should just use sheer force and will to get my reads lynched now when I know I caught scum :[

Don't start my bad habits Alisae. As Town I feel this way sometimes. You saw what happened in Civ. Come back and talk.

[MathBlade]

And I don't understand your paragraph LQ. It is 1 am will address it tomorrow.

[MathBlade]

1) I am a They.
2) As scum that is accurate. It is either boned slot or I fuck up. Those are the only times I have lost. There wasn't ever a "well you did everything right but nothing you could do" game as scum.
As Town in flipful I usually catch almost all of the scum or none of them. I am swingy. In flipless I am pretty good but have no official stats to show.

I don't believe you.

Happy birth/scum day.

Glad objective facts disagree with you.
Find me a scum game I lost and I will tell you the mistake or how it was boned.

[MathBlade]

Like.
Every single fucking game of mafia I play in nowadays.
What happens is
"Alisae finds scum."
"Alisae attempts to catch scum."
"Everyone scumreads Alisae because he's catching scum who is townread."
"Everyone lynches Alisae when he catches scum."
"Because Alisae can't get his reads lynched, scum then proceeds to win the game."

Maybe I should just use sheer force and will to get my reads lynched now when I know I caught scum :[

Don't start my bad habits Alisae. As Town I feel this way sometimes. You saw what happened in Civ. Come back and talk.

It's because I put my foot way too far forward, and then when people don't fall me I crawl up into a ball and cry and feel like I'm just shit at mafia because I can't get my reads lynched.

Don't focus on the end goal. Focus on the message.
Notice LQ can't attack the contents of my message so LQ attacks me. It is pretty transparent.
This screaming back and forth is not productive. It isn't going to help someone come find you where you are.

Both you and LQ are firing machine guns at each other and are threatening rocket launchers next.

When both of you are immune to that shit and the only thing that helps is rope no one can approach because they are scared of being hit with a bullet.

[MathBlade]

/me hugs

Now if you want LQ lynched (as I do as I scumread) start from a case. Ask me questions about where I am at since you townread me. Let's work on some of your other reads here. Who do you townread (besides me)?

I am going to bed as I am tired as fuck.

[MathBlade]

LQ Infinity are scum.

*snore*

More tomorrow.

*snore*

[MathBlade]

.....Yes.

I have only played more flipless mafia games than I can fucking count.

[MathBlade]

And yes by LYLO/MYLO the game is pretty much over.

Either town has the game solved or they don't.
MyLO is a guaranteed no lynch.
Scum kill.
Then LyLO.
Step before that is maneuvering before LyLO.

It is a matter of planning out steps.
By the time endgame roles around it is one final case as to why you should win.
So yes endgame should have very little happening. If it has a lot either scum have had a lot of mislynches or someone is trying to change the gamestate when there is no reason to.

Was asking because of this

Sorry fell asleep. Obviously the kill step doesn't apply here.
But it is still the same idea.
Each lynch precipitates the last and is planning out steps.
Last game I was scum in was a flipful game and that is what people respond to.

[MathBlade]

If you're saying something is doable by the other alignment it means you yourself are not as sure of it either way.

It is okay to townread LaLight. Give yourself permission.

Ok let me expand on this. The sentiment in 586 is one I've felt before as town. I hate it when people get frustrated and give up instead of trying to work with me. So naturally I'm going have some doubts when I see that. But I can definitely see that from scum too who's pretending to be cooperative. Scum!lalight just dropped a whole case on zzzx, presumably to avoid the argument. I think lalight would at least want to keep open the option of getting zzzx on his side.

I also like that he was paying attention to the deadline, but it's a relatively easy thing to fake all things considered. You just have to stop for a sec and think what town would do in that case

I just think that all of this is small compared to lalight just not trying to sort people.

PEdit: ok I'll check that out LQ

You realize me stopping and thinking about town would do in those cases has me pointing to LQ and you right?

LQ's entire point of why you both are Town is that I am incapable of doing that correctly for you two yet I am all of a sudden capable of doing it to match what you want me to say?

Go talk with LQ and work together. This amount of dissonance between the two of you is pretty bad while agreeing on most of your reads.

This is a blatant misrep. My read on Infinity has absolutely NOTHING to do with you at all.

That is not what I am saying.
Your main point is that I am incapable of seeing the world like you do. Mainly how you think Town would act.
Infinity is saying I can.
I am pointing out the discrepancy.

This level of discrepancy should not exist when you agree on reads in name but in reasoning you are conflicting.

Great so that means that I am Scum and Infinity is Town then? Sorry I'm a little slow, but I thought for sure you said what was said in the bold.

Here's what it looked like to me:

You don't specify what "that" is. I need clarification on that because what I think it means is that Infinity and I see that doing flipless YOUR way is not the best way. For the second part of that sentence, it just doesn't make any sense. I don't WANT you to say anything. I think you are off in the way you approach flipless games. There is also the matter of more words needed to describe what "it" is. If by it you mean you are saying I think you are capable of playing the game the same way as myself and Infinity, then LOL, I am not making that argument at all. I think you have your twisted way of doing things and that doesn't mean that you "would" play differently if you were Town. Which brings me to the point of why would you assume I am assuming what you would do as Town considering the previous argument we had about me saying "You wouldn't do X as Town". It makes no sense because you are assuming I know you are Town when I don't know you are Town. When you started playing, I thought you had this really fresh idea, but as it turns out, its a load of horse shit.

The bolded makes you both scum grasping at straws. After rereading after a night of sleep I STILL don't understand this paragraph so I am going to simplify my point.

Say you thought I couldn't climb a tree and that makes me scum.
Infinity says that I can climb a tree.

You guys have fundamental "differences" like these where you both say contradictory points yet reach the same conclusion yet don't attack each other for it.

Infinity and Alisae both say I am a capable player.
You can either agree with them and say I am capable and start addressing my points and quit attacking me as a player because I am so obviously Town the only thing that would make me lynchable is the mod saying so and then everyone would scream bastard. I am that obvTown.
OR
You can think they are both scum together trying to buddy me. Which means that your reads on other players are false.
OR you can think one is scum and one is town. In that case work with your townread to fix their bad logic.

You can't "have your cake that I suck" and then not work with infinity on reads.

[MathBlade]

I don't think I even want to make a case anymore.
I stated my points in thread, and if I do that, LQ will just refute it and will make himself look town again =(

{ZZZX, Math}
{GL, Inf, LaLight}
{LQ}

I'm starting to like GL's posts about LQ. GL, Inf, and LaLight are leans btw. Now that I think about it, I sorta don't really like how LaLight basicly said I could be scum for not following along with their "plan."
My stance on Inf is still the same.

It isn't about LQ.
If he doesn't post things that are intelligible and actually interact with our points with time running down he would be a policy. He knows this and will get his head back in the game.

[MathBlade]

Well they would still probably win as scum against people that don't know their meta.

But we're getting off topic.

I just feel really relieved that MB prolly doesn't know what they are doing, which indicates that people should prolly take what he says with a grain of salt and just read him based on his behavior.

I happen to have a pretty damn good Town game, so I shouldn't be worried about MB being so fucking wrong about me. Feel free to check out my record as Town in my wiki for this.

Are you going to interact with my posts or are you and LQ going to have a bickering contest of whether I'm good or not?

I wholeheartedly admit at flipful mafia as Town I have a ways to go. I never have claimed to be really good at that. If I can reduce my swingyness and what pings me I'll get up to the levels of a mastina level of "good" at mafia. I play this game to become better as town. As scum it turns distinctly into a strategy game of which pieces to move because I don't have to read people. In multiball (usually) I end up townread because I'm actively still solving the game.

A record as town even if you've never lost "EVER" doesn't make you town here either. It just makes you angry that you either A) can't be bothered to try to understand my points so you attack me. or B) are genuinely scum so you say Math can't be right.

Third I'm a fucking THEY watch your pronouns please. For someone who claims to be good your inability to notice and maintain minor details is annoying which again makes me think you're scum because losing little details is what you did in Gistou.

[MathBlade]

Yes. Mathblade tunnels basically every game and they are right sometimes and wrong quite a bit.

If that's the case, he really needs to get off his high horse.

This is actually false. I have been NK'd for NOT tunneling before and accurately CCing a scum claim.
I also have games where I lurk a lot.
I have a game I recently finished that infinity knows I didn't tunnel in. I was just loud and vocal.

Do not dare confuse a "loud" personality which I will always have for a "tunnel".

[MathBlade]

Now let me ask a random question?
Who here scumreads Alisae? Simple yes or no. If you have a maybe get a read confident enough to answer.
If you have a yes tell me why.

Why does this matter? It doesn't.

LaLight was not at all clearing momo, so there is your answer.

Yes it actually matters a lot.

For example: If everyone townreads a player, then that player is a part of a town block. While in flipful mafia I hate town blocks. In flipless they are a HUGE indicator of how a town passes and fails.

[MathBlade]

I don't think I even want to make a case anymore.
I stated my points in thread, and if I do that, LQ will just refute it and will make himself look town again =(

{ZZZX, Math}
{GL, Inf, LaLight}
{LQ}

I'm starting to like GL's posts about LQ. GL, Inf, and LaLight are leans btw. Now that I think about it, I sorta don't really like how LaLight basicly said I could be scum for not following along with their "plan."
My stance on Inf is still the same.

It isn't about LQ.
If he doesn't post things that are intelligible and actually interact with our points with time running down he would be a policy. He knows this and will get his head back in the game.

M8 did you just threaten me with a PL? Where do you get off saying this? I have played Pro-Town all game. And even if I wasn't (which I am) that's not enough for a PL, not by a long shot.

Threaten no. I'm already voting you. If you don't quit attacking people instead of the arguments which is your traditional scum meta as linked you will go down. It's not a threat. You will either quit attacking the person and attack the arguments or ask clarifying questions about the arguments or you will be lynched. It's not a threat LQ. It's a promise. It may not happen today much as I want it to but it will happen. You've threatened to blacklist Alisae for playing the game, said they shouldn't be a rising star because they scumread you.

VOTE: LicketyQuickety

For emphasis. Because you can and will play to the arguments.

We ARE forming a town block. And then we will annihilate scum. We have 7 alive. 5 town 2 scum. This means three lynches scum have to pull off. This means if we have a town block of three, we win.

[MathBlade]

Flipless mafia isn't about who you scumread. It's about town blocks. Granted you lynch your scumreads sure. But it's about finding three town and being damn sure about it and then nuking everyone else NOT in that town block.

So LQ -- Who do you TOWN read?

[MathBlade]

So GL and I are the Scum team simply because we Town read each other? I can honestly say I have no idea why you were nominated for Rising Star with this kind of shit.

Um, I must say that he didn't even associate you two with each others there at all. He could have easily been scum reading you both for two differant reasons. Why are you attacking him for your assumption?

Also I think you need to chill out. You are borderline attacking the player. Don't do that. I got so fucking angry when arguing with LaLight yet I tried to refrain from insulting him and instead talked about his shit his

Argument

is. Big difference here.

Agreed. This is typical scum LQ.

And I would watch yourself before you wreck yourself LQ. I frequently update meta reads. I spend a lot of time just reading games to improve myself.

[MathBlade]

Flipless mafia isn't about who you scumread. It's about town blocks. Granted you lynch your scumreads sure. But it's about finding three town and being damn sure about it and then nuking everyone else NOT in that town block.

So LQ -- Who do you TOWN read?

Infinity, LaLight, GL.

Okay. There we go progress.

Infinity -- Who do you TOWN read?
Lalight -- Who do you TOWN read?
ZZZX -- Who do you TOWN read?
Guilty Lion -- Who do you TOWN read?
Alisae -- Who do you TOWN read?

And yes I wrote out every person's name individually so that way no one has an excuse of missing the Alisae question the last time.

Based on who townreads who a clear distinct picture develops.

And also FYI -- You swapped your read on me from town to potential scum LQ. Why is that?

[MathBlade]

So GL and I are the Scum team simply because we Town read each other? I can honestly say I have no idea why you were nominated for Rising Star with this kind of shit.

Um, I must say that he didn't even associate you two with each others there at all. He could have easily been scum reading you both for two differant reasons. Why are you attacking him for your assumption?

Also I think you need to chill out. You are borderline attacking the player. Don't do that. I got so fucking angry when arguing with LaLight yet I tried to refrain from insulting him and instead talked about his shit his

Argument

is. Big difference here.

Agreed. This is typical scum LQ.

And I would watch yourself before you wreck yourself LQ. I frequently update meta reads. I spend a lot of time just reading games to improve myself.

M8, you don't know what is typical Scum!LQ because you have only played a single fucking game with be besides this one.

My God, you haven't yet looked at another one of my games yet... How am I going to have to be checking myself when you have zil meta on me at this junction? And LOL, feel free to Read though some of my Town and Scum games (not like its going to change your read on me). Besides, I thought this flipless game was all about associations. What good is meta when you can use associations inappropriately?

I am not using them inappropriately. You're going to interact with arguments not the people.

[MathBlade]

I don't think I even want to make a case anymore.
I stated my points in thread, and if I do that, LQ will just refute it and will make himself look town again =(

{ZZZX, Math}
{GL, Inf, LaLight}
{LQ}

I'm starting to like GL's posts about LQ. GL, Inf, and LaLight are leans btw. Now that I think about it, I sorta don't really like how LaLight basicly said I could be scum for not following along with their "plan."
My stance on Inf is still the same.

Assuming this hasn't changed then?

ZZX and myself are your town reads?

I'm asking explicitly for a reason. Then I can show you using flipless VCA and who says who townreads who how to craft a town block. You wanted to see how flipless VCA works. I'm breaking it down bit by bit.

[MathBlade]

We'll see based on everyone's townreads but

viewtopic.php?p=8205498#p8205498

viewtopic.php?p=8198135#p8198135

It's literally LicketyQuickety to not attack the arguments but they player or say "conf!biased" town LQ interacts with the arguments instead of trying to manipulate the players into not voting for him. He actually demolishes the cases. Even until his lynch he'll keep doing it.

@LQ -- People have to have already established these reasons prior to answering about the townreads. If they don't explain "why" they townread someone and they do in order to have that person in the town block, they're outed as scum. Specifically why your omission of myself after calling me town is noted as weird. The reasons time is before answering that question. People have had time to explain a town read.

[MathBlade]

FYI double freaking clear from being scum.

[MathBlade]

I'm going to D&D and will be out the remainder of the night. Get everyone's town reads and then we can build that town block.

[MathBlade]

I could look those up.
I could do that but then we get in the same scenario of "Math is Math"

Explaining flipless VCA is complicated and with my limited time I am going step by step while holding people accountable.

I am running late. Gotta go. But a town block already is naturally formed I am merely asking everyone's reads and exposing it to the surface.

[MathBlade]

Yes. Mathblade tunnels basically every game and they are right sometimes and wrong quite a bit.

If that's the case, he really needs to get off his high horse.

This is actually false. I have been NK'd for NOT tunneling before and accurately CCing a scum claim.
I also have games where I lurk a lot.
I have a game I recently finished that infinity knows I didn't tunnel in. I was just loud and vocal.

Do not dare confuse a "loud" personality which I will always have for a "tunnel".

I wasn't myself that game and I am trying to keep that alt hidden.

You'll remember I started to tunnel Postie but then backed off onto Titus when she scum claimed then considered your empking shadow reads.

Elemental trinity after Transcend was policied for not fucking playing I had all but one of the scum team nailed and was a vig kill.

Seriously. Loud isn't tunneling.
Which game?

You may not tunnel every game but most of the time you do.

[MathBlade]

Might I mention a scum vig kill.*

Out the door now

But seriously enough attacking people attack the arguments.

[MathBlade]

Pedit thank you LQ

[MathBlade]

Prod dodge.

Got home an hour later than I hoped so that took my Mafia time as I have an interview tomorrow.

Will read later.

[MathBlade]

V/LA until Tuesday night (30 hours from now). I might have an hour or two to make posts between that and now but my interview stuff went well so hooray!

[MathBlade]

Online now catching up on the thread.

[MathBlade]

Townreads --
Me = Alisae, ZZX, Lalight, GuiltyLion
Alisae - Me, ZZX, Lalight
Infinity - LQ, GL, ali, zzx
ZZX - Me, Alisae, LQ
Lalight -- Me, GL, LQ
LQ -- Infinity, Lalight, GL << Note: Infinity is in LQ's townreads list then offers to hammer with no one strongly townreading him.
GL -- Alisae, Mathblade

This is the first step to doing a flipless mafia VCA and determining the townblock. The next step is to see what (if anything) changed before asking this question. I did not find any such discrepancies (except LQ quitting townreading me), but should they exist, it is a potential scum indicator.


P.S. Anyone hammering while I type up this explanation after coding 20+ hours straight is scum.

[MathBlade]

I am townread by Alisae, ZZX, Lalight, and GL and not townread by LQ, Infinity
Alisae is townread by myself, Infinity, ZZX, and GL and not townread by Lalight, LQ
Infinity is townread ("ish") by only LQ. << And even then they say it's not strong and/or backing off.
ZZX is townread by Myself, Alisae, and Infinity and not townread by Lalight, LQ, GL.
Lalight is townread by myself, Alisae, LQ, and not townread by Infinity, ZZX, and GL.
LQ is townread by Infinity, ZZX, and lalight and is not townread by myself, alisae, GL.
GL is townread by myself and LQ and not townread by Alisae, infinity, zzx, and lalight.

Now take a look at the every one of the potential scum teams assuming no one has ever posted a thing: This does exclude the possibility of one scum remaining however because no one has enough town reads to be considering any of them scum ATM. If duppin or Not Mafia were scum there'd be more confusing in the "strong town reads". I will be reading ISOs later but anyone who has trouble finding a scumread or says PoE I will have a huge FoS on for this reason.

Spoiler: Part One

Me/Alisae -- In this case, every wagon so far would be town driven and town hammered on town. This is generally occurs in a toxic town. As this game is not toxic, (and I know I'm not scum) this team is removed. Based on the overwhelming about of townreads on Alisae and myself this means either A) Both scum are likely townreading us because reads are wrong or B) Both scum are not townreading one of us or C) A mix of A and B. With the amount of townreads Alisae has along with the lack of sheeping going on this generally means that someone is trying to make it hard for Alisae to work. In general flipless mafia goes better if you try to talk more with your townreads than your scum ones. (Yes I know I sucked on replace in but I digress....)

Me/Infinity -- At this point, not townreading a scum partner is a recipe for either a) a doomed scum partner and a likely bus or B) an indication you know they are going down anyway in the future. This makes LQ's back off of the infinity townread rather surprising. For a person who says they stick to their guns they aren't now. I wasn't looking for aggressive in tone when I looked at LQ's meta, but aggressive confidence in tone. In scum games especially when pressured LQ is more resigned laid back. In contrast, bussing here earns little to no town cred. Therefore bussing is not optimal and I'm a huge busser with two perfect games (1800 and first newbie game) and 1841 only buddy lynched was a guilty. In terms of vote counts, day one Not Mafia lynch would have to have been all town and then moonbird coming on at the tail end and infinity not on it at all. This means two town driven wagons on town in the first two days in this case. Therefore, me + infinity is not a likely team.

Me/ZZX -- This one in terms of VCA is a bit more practical. ZZX was vocal at the start of the day and was a key factor in the Not_Mafia lynch. Then after tapering off he sneaks in a post at the end and our two slots are the end slots. However, the duppin and lalight wagons were originally a counter wagon to not mafia. This indicates a split when both are lynched back to back. One on the duppin wagon and one on the Not Mafia wagon. 125-172 is a key section and scum getting wagons down early to help sustain dual wagons not on scum helps. In the case of flipless VCA a good rule of thumb is to look at when your town reads were wagoned and who was the counter wagon when there's LOTS (subjective). Likely if you're right on both town your scumreads should be split on both wagons. If not then you need to check your reads. In this case, this eliminates me and ZZX except in the case of an untraditional or newbie player. Based on how townreads fall though that case is eliminated.


Me/Lalight -- My slot was pretty much inactive on arrival. When that happens, generally town wreck when a scum gets inactive because of a tendency to lynch lurkers in early days or "unhelpful" players. Based on how the wagon switched from ZZX to lalight this is not a possibility for a scum team.You'd have to be able to examine and argue how a player who I believe has made several newb tells would end up being able to convince town to lynch someone besides the inactive scumbuddy.

Me/LQ -- Besides the fact that scum buddies don't go at each other this hard core in flipless, moonbird's vote followed LQ's. Generally a lurker scum (which moonbird would be in this case) won't follow their scum buddy and will create distance. Between that and everyone besides infinity and LQ townreading me, this case borders on the absurd.
Me/GL -- Besides having a few posts that ping me the right way, this would have to be a game where town lead town down town dark holes and then I as scum would then have to go against town digging themselves further into the abyss. Anyone who knows my scum games knows when a town messes up I push it like hell. For this reason, me/GL is eliminated.

Anyone wishing to suggest that I am scum has to explain those specific scenarios for who I am paired with.

Still to do. Need to brb in a bit.
Alisae/Infinity
Alisae/ZZX
Alisae/Lalight
Alisae/LQ
Alisae/GL
Infinity/ZZX
Infinity/Lalight
Infinity/LQ
Infinity/GL
ZZX/Lalight
ZZX/LQ
ZZX/GL
Lalight/LQ
Lalight/GL

[MathBlade]

Townreads --
Me = Alisae, ZZX, Lalight, GuiltyLion
Alisae - Me, ZZX, Lalight
Infinity - LQ, GL, ali, zzx
ZZX - Me, Alisae, LQ
Lalight -- Me, GL, LQ
LQ -- Infinity, Lalight, GL << Note: Infinity is in LQ's townreads list then offers to hammer with no one strongly townreading him.
GL -- Alisae, Mathblade

This is the first step to doing a flipless mafia VCA and determining the townblock. The next step is to see what (if anything) changed before asking this question. I did not find any such discrepancies (except LQ quitting townreading me), but should they exist, it is a potential scum indicator.


P.S. Anyone hammering while I type up this explanation after coding 20+ hours straight is scum.

I am pretty sure I described my thought process behind Infinity somewhat thoroughly and if not it should be apparent where I stand on things given my comments about the gamestate we are currently in. This is a lazy way to get a Scum read and its Scummy as shit considering you are making an analysis while objectively disregarding some key points that were made. Why do people Town read you?

If you're not going to provide up to day analysis

, it can be seen as very manipulative given proper context. Just letting you know.

As I said before I'm doing the vote count analysis UP TO that point and then I'm going to read the next bit and see where stuff falls. Based on the analysis we can see if I'm right or if I'm caught in a derp tunnel. I have to be right back but seriously bolding shit after I already said what I'm doing is annoying and spammy.

[MathBlade]

Fuck it...I literally fell asleep while typing the part two and it now is more characters than intelligble language. I'm finishing this tomorrow.

[MathBlade]

I am townread by Alisae, ZZX, Lalight, and GL and not townread by LQ, Infinity
Alisae is townread by myself, Infinity, ZZX, and GL and not townread by Lalight, LQ
Infinity is townread ("ish") by only LQ. << And even then they say it's not strong and/or backing off.
ZZX is townread by Myself, Alisae, and Infinity and not townread by Lalight, LQ, GL.
Lalight is townread by myself, Alisae, LQ, and not townread by Infinity, ZZX, and GL.
LQ is townread by Infinity, ZZX, and lalight and is not townread by myself, alisae, GL.
GL is townread by myself and LQ and not townread by Alisae, infinity, zzx, and lalight.

Now take a look at the every one of the potential scum teams assuming no one has ever posted a thing: This does exclude the possibility of one scum remaining however because no one has enough town reads to be considering any of them scum ATM. If duppin or Not Mafia were scum there'd be more confusing in the "strong town reads". I will be reading ISOs later but anyone who has trouble finding a scumread or says PoE I will have a huge FoS on for this reason.

Spoiler: Part One

Me/Alisae -- In this case, every wagon so far would be town driven and town hammered on town. This is generally occurs in a toxic town. As this game is not toxic, (and I know I'm not scum) this team is removed. Based on the overwhelming about of townreads on Alisae and myself this means either A) Both scum are likely townreading us because reads are wrong or B) Both scum are not townreading one of us or C) A mix of A and B. With the amount of townreads Alisae has along with the lack of sheeping going on this generally means that someone is trying to make it hard for Alisae to work. In general flipless mafia goes better if you try to talk more with your townreads than your scum ones. (Yes I know I sucked on replace in but I digress....)

Me/Infinity -- At this point, not townreading a scum partner is a recipe for either a) a doomed scum partner and a likely bus or B) an indication you know they are going down anyway in the future. This makes LQ's back off of the infinity townread rather surprising. For a person who says they stick to their guns they aren't now. I wasn't looking for aggressive in tone when I looked at LQ's meta, but aggressive confidence in tone. In scum games especially when pressured LQ is more resigned laid back. In contrast, bussing here earns little to no town cred. Therefore bussing is not optimal and I'm a huge busser with two perfect games (1800 and first newbie game) and 1841 only buddy lynched was a guilty. In terms of vote counts, day one Not Mafia lynch would have to have been all town and then moonbird coming on at the tail end and infinity not on it at all. This means two town driven wagons on town in the first two days in this case. Therefore, me + infinity is not a likely team.

Me/ZZX -- This one in terms of VCA is a bit more practical. ZZX was vocal at the start of the day and was a key factor in the Not_Mafia lynch. Then after tapering off he sneaks in a post at the end and our two slots are the end slots. However, the duppin and lalight wagons were originally a counter wagon to not mafia. This indicates a split when both are lynched back to back. One on the duppin wagon and one on the Not Mafia wagon. 125-172 is a key section and scum getting wagons down early to help sustain dual wagons not on scum helps. In the case of flipless VCA a good rule of thumb is to look at when your town reads were wagoned and who was the counter wagon when there's LOTS (subjective). Likely if you're right on both town your scumreads should be split on both wagons. If not then you need to check your reads. In this case, this eliminates me and ZZX except in the case of an untraditional or newbie player. Based on how townreads fall though that case is eliminated.


Me/Lalight -- My slot was pretty much inactive on arrival. When that happens, generally town wreck when a scum gets inactive because of a tendency to lynch lurkers in early days or "unhelpful" players. Based on how the wagon switched from ZZX to lalight this is not a possibility for a scum team.You'd have to be able to examine and argue how a player who I believe has made several newb tells would end up being able to convince town to lynch someone besides the inactive scumbuddy.

Me/LQ -- Besides the fact that scum buddies don't go at each other this hard core in flipless, moonbird's vote followed LQ's. Generally a lurker scum (which moonbird would be in this case) won't follow their scum buddy and will create distance. Between that and everyone besides infinity and LQ townreading me, this case borders on the absurd.
Me/GL -- Besides having a few posts that ping me the right way, this would have to be a game where town lead town down town dark holes and then I as scum would then have to go against town digging themselves further into the abyss. Anyone who knows my scum games knows when a town messes up I push it like hell. For this reason, me/GL is eliminated.

Anyone wishing to suggest that I am scum has to explain those specific scenarios for who I am paired with.

Still to do. Need to brb in a bit.
Alisae/Infinity
Alisae/ZZX
Alisae/Lalight
Alisae/LQ
Alisae/GL
Infinity/ZZX
Infinity/Lalight
Infinity/LQ
Infinity/GL
ZZX/Lalight
ZZX/LQ
ZZX/GL
Lalight/LQ
Lalight/GL

Couple things wrong with this.

This post is neither an analysis based solely on the subjective nor solely on the objective. Its like you only want to go swimming in water up to your navel. If this post was strictly based on reads alone, OR if it was based on prior events happening itt alone, I would have no problem with this post. But the fact is, because this post represents itself as objective, and because there is a play of subjectivity, if not downright misrepresentation of what I know I at least have said in this thread not speaking for anyone else, I cannot take this post as objectively accurate. The egregious flaw that MB makes here is that I have never said in this thread that I don't change my stances AS TOWN. Also worth noting is that MB dips into the most subjective of all manner of getting reads and represents them as objective fact, meta arguments.

There are also subtly undertones of MB manipulating this data to incriminate me. This is seen in his analysis of my Town read on Infinity. The reason this is a problem is because MB said earlier that this represents past data, but the fact of the matter is, is that there was clearly a post where I gave my POE reads and listed as LaLight, GL and Alisae as my Town reads and ZZZX, Infinity and MB in my POE for Scum. Knowing that MB actively ignored this post is troubling me a lot. The verbiage used to describe the read I have on Infinity is not accurate and in fact, is misleading. As MB says I "backed off" Infinity, there is no mention of my new POE reads, nor any mention of the process I went through to get to that POE. Not only does MB ignore one of my posts for POE reads, but there is a second that he completely ignored as well. So on the one hand, MB is arguing that I was changing my read on Infinity and that would be fine except for the fact that in the very post where I question my read on Infinity, I provide an updated POE reads list. So its erroneous that am chang

ing

my read on Infinity and it should read that my read has chang

ed

. It should be clear that my read on Infinity was solidly in the POE and not that I was "backing off" infinity. To top it all off, in my very next post, I detail specifically the reason I have changed my reads on both Infinity and ZZZX and did a contrast between playstyles between then and what this says about my read on them. In short, its fallacious for MB to say my read on Infinity was changing instead of changed because in the very post that I was changing my read on infinity I had at that point put Infinity back into my POE. Note: With regards to my read on Infinity it should be noted that I have changed my stance on them a lot, and so as such it should be apparent that any subjective verbiage to describe my read on Infinity should reflect that rather than say at the moment of the regarded post that I was in the process of changing my read on Infinity at that moment only.

The reason this is such an egregious error is that because MB doesn't stick to the deductive reasoning in his post, but dabbles in the subjective interpretation of things as well which opens up a possibility at the very least for MB to be shading some things to the agenda that he feels is necessary. Lastly, MB has completely written off the possiblity that duppin or NM could be Scum. The arguments others have made regarding this have not been countered by him and in fact it is not only me who thinks the exact opposite to his theory that no Scum have been lynched yet. The claim that no Scum have been lynched yet is his entire basis for the POE on who is Scum - something that cannot be proven objectively one way or another.

Find one thing that is not an objective fact and then a conclusion reached by that objective fact. I dare you.

[MathBlade]

Furthermore that is UP to the question where I said that and you had no explained your "POE" process and backed off Creature. Alas, you are a scum pushed up against a wall and you hate it and are now pushing me. Because I'm pushing you. You're literally pushing teams through VCA and moonbird's + my play just don't make sense...Onward with the rest of the team analysis.

[MathBlade]

Spoiler: Remaining team analysis

Alisae/Infinity -- One two punch on Lalight on day one doesn't make sense here for scum to do. They could have easily one two punched Not Mafia which had more support. Pretty much in day one it's always tell tale (especially with people who've played a lot of flipless) that they don't 1-2. Veteran flipless will but not a team with flipful because they'd need the control. Flipless is meant to be exactly how Titus plays flipful mafia. Town blocks and vote order, not just being on a wagon but the "umph" and speed behind it. A hybrid Mastina/Titus VCA generally outs newb-flipless scum a lot. (And if it didn't here I'd be pleasantly surprised.)

Alisae/ZZX -- Now this one in VCA is actually a practical team. << If I'm entirely wrong on my reads and the world is ending, this is where I would go. VCA does support this one as a possible team based on the Not Mafia/LaLight split and the two hammers. The most likely case based on the two lynch wagons is not both of them, but that's not as damning and so this is still possible.


Alisae/Lalight -- Just no. No way scum momo busses on day one when he's an inactive lurk sack and general policy lynch especially after having one.

Alisae/LQ -- Viable team for day one. Not a viable team for day two. If LQ had such an inactive player as a partner, one two punching there means LQ's committed whole hog to a Duppin wagon. Instead it's a half assed "here's the things wrong with Duppin" case. It's not a passionate plea it's a calm, calculated, determined, case. This is not a scum scared that their buddy is going to flake out and potentially be lynched. Then the follow on momo eliminates this team.

Alisae/GL -- Not possible. The duppin wagon they 1-2 punch and then lose all semblance of control. Alisae I can tell is genuinely frustrated that the LQ push from before didn't happen. I think town frustrated, but there is no reason to lose control like that and just try to ram through a duppin lynch there. This team is not possible.

Infinity/ZZX -- Infinity + ZZX don't make that hammer there. Infinity is a good scum player but likes it when he has little attention but if he has a lot as scum it's generally bad for him. No way ZZX makes that hammer with scum having daytalk in the first post.

Infinity/Lalight -- Yeah let's cross bus for all eternity. (sarcasm) Not considering this team

Infinity/LQ -- Split votes on the major wagons. One on and one off the wagon to slow it down and set up the next day's mislynch. On splitting again on the ZZX/Lalight wagons, keeping an old stale read to support it. Not being willing to vote each other for a while. Changing your reads on myself and infinity. This is my top likely pairing.

Infinity/GL - While it could be possible scum lead things out of the gates on a day, that's generally not the case. They need to see how the winds continue on. Infinity being off the wagon is sketchy too in that case as duppin was widely scumread. This implies a preconceived notion Infinity knows duppin and Not_Mafia are town.

ZZX/Lalight -- Based on VCA alone, these two each being a wagon on day three makes sense ONLY if you take into account the not alignment indicative hammer from ZZX as scummy and of desperate scum team scared the lynch would go elsewhere. Both are relative newbies to the site and VCA matches perfectly. However, they've made several "newb" tells and this looks like mislynch bait especially when you have to make something NAI scummy to make this work. Still possible but not as likely. Today's vote would reek of a bus if that's the case and ZZX with his activity levels I doubt could take it. This team while possible is unlikely.

ZZX/LQ -- Again another ridiculous pairing considering how long LQ has been on ZZX's butt.
ZZX/GL -- Not possible due to the day three wagons.
Lalight/LQ -- 1-2 punch on Not Mafia highly unlikely given Lalight is a relative newb and since scum have daytalk LQ wouldn't coach lalight there to make that vote in 1.4
Lalight/GL -- 1.4 makes that an impossibility.

TLDR: Likely teams -- LQ/Infinity, Alisae/ZZX, Infinity/GL
Steps to do: 1 analyze hammer wagons -- Generally one scum on and one scum off with relative flipless inexperience to chain mislynches on town wagons. If it is a scum wagon, then the analysis is slightly different, but in this case very likely not scum on those two wagons.

2 analyze given teams and look for 1-2 follow ups. Later on (post day 3) one two follow ups become common out of necessity. However if scum are in control they don't need to one two punch and if scum aren't in control you generally aren't doing VCA and have a "feel" anyway. The lack of feels after a few lynches means that scum were generally in a good place so split + 1-2 usually nails an inexperienced flipless team. (They could have a lot of flip experience but not flipless.)

As I townread Alisae, ZZX, and GL infinity is the way to go today. Now to compare that with everything that happened after my question.

[MathBlade]

Now, if Infinity gets lynched and the game doesn't end the next thing every player should do is go back and look at the game with the fresh perspective two of the three of those have to be town or all three do. Look at the wagon composition and compare it throughout. Based on me seeing the latest post by infinity, I'd be thoroughly convinced that he'd be scum for not giving reads and Not Mafia's vote on Infinity implicates him pretty hard. Momo (now Alisae) started an early wagon on infinity.

[MathBlade]

It can, yes. If someone has 100 posts and only 25 of those posts actually have decent content it makes it look like they are trying to inflate their post count making them look like they are doing more than they really are. Admittedly its not the strongest tell... But only if they get better as the game goes on. I haven't see a trend of you making more and more good content posts, which would actually be a Town tell.

I mean, More than half of the game doesn't feel my posts don't have contents.

Two: Anti-Town <> Scummy.

For all you know I could be here as town just fucking pissed at the world and trolling. (showing an extreme case)

Spammy / Low-Content posts are an issue in MS. But its the most NAI thing right now.

I am just helping you get your facts straight

If your vote is a policy on me because I am off-railing the game and posting so much I make catch-ups impossible? Keep it.

If your vote is on me being scum? You need a wake up call.

To see how I play when I am tryharding the most , I will link you team mafia game. Which I consider one of my best games played. You will see how "spammy" people can be without being scum.

Why are you trying to excuse Anti-Town behavior?

The fact that other people spam and don't add content doesn't give you the go ahead to do the same. I said early in this game: How we play this game I would like to be an example to other people in a similar setup. We don't have much to go on this game besides Pro-Town and Anti-Town behavior. NM was PL in this game for playing Anti-Town... That is how important playing Pro-Town to me is in this game and others. Granted, NM was an extreme case, but that doesn't change the fact that I still want people to play as Pro-Town as possible. I mean, I rarely make a posts that doesn't have any content in it, and if I do, its because I want something changed with the landscape of the environment of the game that we play in (Like this post). But the fact that I am arguing with you about this instead of more pertinent things regarding this game is telling indeed.

And this is where IMHO a lot of MafiaScum goes wrong with this game. There is behavior but there's also strategies out there for flipless mafia. Being protown or anti-town is an EVEN WORSE indicator here than in regular mafia. Because at that point you're rewarding people who "get along" and are "well liked" versus mafia. Instead, that is merely a component but it is not everything. The WHEN and HOW a player is voted and WHY is much more important than "this guy doesn't spam". You'll likely have less spam than in a flipful game but still...Horrible post.

[MathBlade]

UNVOTE:
That reply is honest...
HMMMMMM...
Alisae needs to think here.

Thank God. I like the last line here the best. It shows that Alisae is actively trying to sort people and generally doesn't know where to go from here. And you know what? That OK. I am glad that Alisae is demonstrating that they are trying to critically think about the game, its a really good sign.

Yes they are trying to think critically about the game from my point of view. Doesn't know where to go however is bad. It's understandable for a brief moment, but then should be followed by some sort of reread of the thread or to see if scum are doing something unexpected. Being in a state of "I dunno" should NEVER be allowed as "OK" it's more..."Have to accept it but get back to us asap with thoughts" and some kind of concrete stance.

[MathBlade]

VC 3. GuiltyLion
LaLight (2) - Infinity 324, ZZZX
ZZZX (2) - LaLight, GuiltyLion
LicketyQuickety (2) - Alisae, MathBlade

Not Voting - LicketyQuickety

Day 3 deadline is renewed.
Y'all feel a nasty chill down the spine...

Deadline: (expired on 2017-05-24 18:45:50)

So, it looks like we have exactly three people scumreading ZZZX/Infinity, exactly 2 people scumreading me, exactly 2 people scumreading LQ. we should move on.

this VC is actually a good way of looking at things, what do you mean by "move on"? and I want MathBlade's thoughts on this:

I think it's very likely that at least one of LaLight/ZZZX/Lickety is scum with this VC. If all three wagons were on town, we would have probably achieved lynch consensus earlier with scum jumping on whichever one is easiest for them to convincingly get rid of.

<<I think it is Lickety. See big team analysis post for details.

The best thing I can get to here is that we can likely rule out ZZZX-LL, ZZZX-GL, LQ-Alisae, LQ-MB, LL-Inf teams. However, I think you could make the case that anyone not on a wagon could be plausible partners with each of the other wagonees here.

<<Again see my team case here where I suggest three possible teams.

Do you guys think scum would vote together here - is it likely to have something like a Inf/ZZZX or LL-GL team? I think Mathblade said earlier they don't think scum would vote together at this stage in the game.
<<

Generally

no. An experienced scum helping a new scum would try to protect them unless all hope is lost (like LQ+Inf) new and new would be hyper focused on townreading their buddy. Two experienced likely wouldn't be in this situation. You only consider cross voting pretty damn near close to lylo.

See thoughts in line.

[MathBlade]

I unvoted Infinity because I felt he was playing to his Town meta that I remember from this game: viewtopic.php?p=8198973&user_select%5B%5D=21297#p8198973

also I would like a lot more detail about this

How likely would you say it is that Infinity is town in this game? What specifically is similar about his meta in these two games that he could not fake if he were scum?

I see Infinity Scum hunting. I see him having different reasoning than the norm, which is completely within his Town meta. I was concerned at first that was tooo far out there, but after seeing Infinity engaging more with people, I am running out of reasons to Scum read him. He seems to have reasonable defenses to accusations, which is kinda a loose Town tell. The one concern I have for Infinity NOW is that he may just be Scum hunting for the sake of Scumhunting. He hasn't seemed to really catch anyone off guard with his probing questions. But when it comes down to it, you have to judge whether Infinity does that kind of probing as Town or Scum and I just don't know so I call it NAI to slightly Townie.

On a scale of 1-10 I would prolly put Infinity at about a 6.5-7 for Town.

I'm lost. IDK who is Scum. the post ZZZX made was not bad at all. It seems to fit the kind of narrative that ZZZX has towards games in general. I am actually starting to think that ZZZX is just a player who really doesn't actually see too many things as AI which would explain a lot.

That said, I don't think this clears ZZZX in a flipless killess game, but it does give him some effort points at the very least, which is Pro-Town behavior.

I have been trying to narrow does who is actually Scum this game through POE for the better part of the last 2 days. I am willing to reconsider Infinity at this point because I do feel good about LaLight (who has become my strongest Town read), GL to a lesser factor (Just because they are not super active), And to a lesser extent than that, Alisae (who has shown they are actively trying to sort people). Thing is, someone HAS to be Scum - at least one person. That Leaves the POE to Infinity and MB and to some other extent, ZZZX. I am not sold on MB being Town yet. I don't think MB has done anything he couldn't fake as Scum. Combine this with the fact that Infinity has said that MB has a gooood Scum game, and I just can't give MB a solid Town read at this time.

This read change by LQ is horrible. This is more "well I know my buddy is going to go down because MathBlade/the townies is/are a loud butthole(s)" rather than actually being willing to reconsider.

Also 1100 is horrible as I have had multiple perfect games as scum on the site. And if I would have stayed alive in Elemental Trinity I could have easily wrapped that game up perfectly too. Backed into a corner you are literally disagreeing with facts and hope people never lynch you based on how hard you yell versus actually believing what you're saying.

This being said now time to build the block since I'm caught up on the thread.

[MathBlade]

LQ/Infinity, Alisae/ZZX, Infinity/GL

Townblock firms (won't include myself for obvious reasons): Lalight. At this point, anyone scumreading lalight has to provide a viable partner for lalight to be with.

Lalight is townread by myself, Alisae, LQ, and not townread by Infinity, ZZX, and GL. << Fact
ZZX and GL do not townread Lalight but at this point an Infinity + GL potential team above would be backed into a corner unable to mislynch lalight. This means scum would be intentionally townreading Lalight. This means something is wrong in lalight's scumreads or can be discredited. Townreading your biggest attacker is a recipe for disaster if scum. It's for this reason, ZZX is almost certainly town or with someone who hates being scum like Alisae. So one of ZZX/GL or both should be in your town block.

So my town block is myself + LaLight + one or more of ZZX/GL. (based on how infinity townread both and pretty much scum claimed they tentatively go in the town block.) Alisae also tentatively goes in the town block.

So it's at this point a townblock of myself + Lalight is hard. And soft town block inclusions of Alisae, ZZX, and GL.

A "hard" entry into the townblock means that barring world catastrophe or a mod confirmation this player is almost certainly town.
A "soft" entry into the townblock means that these are the people you reevaluate closer to lylo but for now are people you don't vote.

Right now there is 7 alive 4 to lynch which means tomorrow 6 day after that 5. This means to be in 2P lylo scum have to have three mislynches. Which means if Infinity and then LQ are lynched then the game isn't over then soft blocks get re-evaluated hard.

VOTE: Infinity

LET'S DO THIS PEOPLE!

GO TOWN GO!

[MathBlade]

What do you think so far Alisae of my thoughts? Agree / disagree ? Why?

And do you agree with who I am putting in hard and soft town block?

[MathBlade]

Okay now we know for a fact two of the three of Not Mafia Duppin and Infinity are town.

Lol subjective != scumhunting. I can and am hunting objectively. You push me because it is within your wincon to shut me up.

Do you townread infinity?

[MathBlade]

And again them please not him.

[MathBlade]

Votecount! (1.5)

Not_Mafia (5) - ZZZX, LicketyQuickety, LaLight, duppin, momo
momo (1) - moonbird
LaLight (1) - Infinity 324
Infinity 324 (1) - Not_Mafia

Not Voting - GuiltyLion

With

9

votes,

5

to lynch

The deadline is in (expired on 2017-05-10 22:09:40).

VC 2.2

duppin (2) - GuiltyLion, momo, LicketyQuickety, moonbird, ZZZX
LaLight (1) - Infinity 324
ZZZX (2) - LaLight

Not Voting: duppin

With

8

votes,

5

to lynch

There is no such world where a LaLight scum team exists based on this lynches. And LaLight infinity is ridiculous too.

[MathBlade]

And the reason that MB is so strong with his POV that both Scum are still left in the game is that it makes it very easy for him to line up lynches. No where does MB even consider that we have already lynched a Mafia member. MB has been disingenuous in his representative "objective" facts to fulfill and agenda where he can keep providing "evidence" that certain players are Scum. I hope the players that are left in LyLo if I am dead can see through his guise.

I already explained on replace in why I felt two scum existed when I replaced in. Infinity was the first lynch I was playing for. I don't see the need to repeat myself here. The split votals and how infinity avoided both wagons means Infinity likely scum and now to find Infinity's partner who I am pretty damn sure is LQ.

[MathBlade]

Mathblade would you agree with a hard townbloc of LaLight/Alisae? Why did Alisae become "tentative"?

I would agree to a hard Town of LaLight online.
Alisae by reading I townread but if I am entirely wrong in reads Alisae +ZZX is possible. I see no such team for LaLight. Based on who people townread today as the game is continuing matters. Who you townread and scumread of the dead matters.

[MathBlade]

Only* not online

[MathBlade]

Okay now we know for a fact two of the three of Not Mafia Duppin and Infinity are town.

Lol subjective != scumhunting. I can and am hunting objectively. You push me because it is within your wincon to shut me up.

Do you townread infinity?

Yes, Scumhunting by its very nature is more subjective. The reason for this is that Scum hunting relies on knowing the perspective of another subject, where as being objective is simply sticking to the facts. Its obvious you only dip into the subjective when it fulfills your own agenda.

I made a case on you stating that it was highly erroneous in the way you categorized my read on Infinity. Its obvious you are playing with a bias considering not only does the way you categorize my read on Infinity inaccurate, but it singles me out as having done something no one else has done, which is not an objective stance to make. You didn't say anything about, for example, Alisae's read on me and how it has changed. You also continue to demonize me in your screwed attempt to represent that I have only done Scummy behavior instead of looking at me with a frame of mind of subjectivity into my motivations. So why is it that you refuse to read me with objectively subjective means? The answer to this is that you know I am a competent Town player and I pose a thread to your agenda. You on the one hand represent that you are viewing me through objective means in the way you represent the associations, but on the other hand you use meta based reads (the most subjective method to reading people) as evidence that I am Scum. This incoherent narrative you have made indicates that you have had a perspective slip regarding your evidence surrounding me. I touched on this perspective slip earlier on how you stated I was "backing off" Infinity when in fact I had objectively changed my read on them. "Backing off" indicated that I was in the process of changing my read on Infinity, but the fact of the matter is that this is a subjective representation of my read on Infinity and representing it as objective representation. That is what your perspective slip is and why you are Scum.

When you have done something no one else has done I will call you out.
And yes I am intentionally making my posts shorter.

I am displaying why I think people are scum using objective 1-2 punch blocks and how people vote. Those objective facts give teams. Then from those teams look at the narrative. Whatever is left is true.

LaLight -- Who do you townread of the dead?

VOTE: LicketyQuickety

[MathBlade]

LaLight -- Who do you townread of the dead?

Guven that I scumread Infinity I have to townread both others.

And the reason that MB is so strong with his POV that both Scum are still left in the game is that it makes it very easy for him to line up lynches. No where does MB even consider that we have already lynched a Mafia member. MB has been disingenuous in his representative "objective" facts to fulfill and agenda where he can keep providing "evidence" that certain players are Scum. I hope the players that are left in LyLo if I am dead can see through his guise.

I already explained on replace in why I felt two scum existed when I replaced in. Infinity was the first lynch I was playing for. I don't see the need to repeat myself here. The split votals and how infinity avoided both wagons means Infinity likely scum and now to find Infinity's partner who I am pretty damn sure is LQ.

But you can't know that indefinitely which makes you assumptive narrative that NM and duppin were Town is highly erroneous. You also have no verifiable evidence for why reading people based on associations is objectively sound. You only have your word and I can't just believe you at your word for obvious reasons.

Oh really? You mean you think I am lying when I said I know how to play? You're right I have no verifiable evidence except Inception which despite being confirmed scum in that game took 1/2 of the game to lynch. Again you aren't attacking the points I am making you're attacking me.

Assume I am scum. Who could I be paired with and not and why? This whole attack the attacker thing is pretty old and needs some indepth reasons rather than lots of words to hide that lack of reasons.

[MathBlade]

Okay now we know for a fact two of the three of Not Mafia Duppin and Infinity are town.

Lol subjective != scumhunting. I can and am hunting objectively. You push me because it is within your wincon to shut me up.

Do you townread infinity?

Yes, Scumhunting by its very nature is more subjective. The reason for this is that Scum hunting relies on knowing the perspective of another subject, where as being objective is simply sticking to the facts. Its obvious you only dip into the subjective when it fulfills your own agenda.

I made a case on you stating that it was highly erroneous in the way you categorized my read on Infinity. Its obvious you are playing with a bias considering not only does the way you categorize my read on Infinity inaccurate, but it singles me out as having done something no one else has done, which is not an objective stance to make. You didn't say anything about, for example, Alisae's read on me and how it has changed. You also continue to demonize me in your screwed attempt to represent that I have only done Scummy behavior instead of looking at me with a frame of mind of subjectivity into my motivations. So why is it that you refuse to read me with objectively subjective means? The answer to this is that you know I am a competent Town player and I pose a thread to your agenda. You on the one hand represent that you are viewing me through objective means in the way you represent the associations, but on the other hand you use meta based reads (the most subjective method to reading people) as evidence that I am Scum. This incoherent narrative you have made indicates that you have had a perspective slip regarding your evidence surrounding me. I touched on this perspective slip earlier on how you stated I was "backing off" Infinity when in fact I had objectively changed my read on them. "Backing off" indicated that I was in the process of changing my read on Infinity, but the fact of the matter is that this is a subjective representation of my read on Infinity and representing it as objective representation. That is what your perspective slip is and why you are Scum.

When you have done something no one else has done I will call you out.
And yes I am intentionally making my posts shorter.

I am displaying why I think people are scum using objective 1-2 punch blocks and how people vote. Those objective facts give teams. Then from those teams look at the narrative. Whatever is left is true.

LaLight -- Who do you townread of the dead?

VOTE: LicketyQuickety

This in no way addresses any of the points I raised against you.

Will make a case later on how you singled me out inappropriately soon.

You said that I am twisting things in order to make you scum work. That I am subjective (note you even admit I am scumhunting) to prove my point. I start with the votes and then based on those votes see if the game state matches. That is the definition of objectivity.

Similarly you refused on multiple occasions to do so when asked on replace in.

[MathBlade]

I am positive Infinity was scum

You said you were careful about reading people as Town. Why then do you have more confidence in your ability to Scum read people. Furthermore, how on earth can you be 100% certain that Infinity is Scum? This read lacks any evidence at all to support this claim. So either put you money where your mouth is and say why you know for certain that Infinity was Scum or consider yourself playing Anti-Town. You yourself said that what I said about making Naked reads shouldn't be done this game and even said it was "brilliant" what then gives you the right to provide a claim that cannot be tested?

LaLight is never being lynched ever. Unless scum play suboptimally on day four there is always one hard town in flipless mafia or a scum is dead or both. Always. It is one of the nice balancing features of flipless.

[MathBlade]

Because of that anything short of LaLight scum claiming at this point means LaLight can do it.

[MathBlade]

You're misunderstanding what I said. I specifically said I was looking to see what was before that point in townreads and what came after.

The only person to make a sudden jump between their last post of who they townread and who they didn't townread was you.

Again you're using posts I hadn't read throughly in order to say I am scummy. You're using the wrong barometer point and then saying "aha it isn't 300 degrees outside anywhere on earth so you're scummy" but I am comparing my oven temperature cold versus preheated.

[MathBlade]

So you start from the post after with their reads and work BACKWARDS not forwards.

[MathBlade]

That's a pretty weakly reasoned reads list but I can't argue with someone scumreading my other 2 suspects.

VOTE: lalight

This is way overdue

Which part of it is weak though, Care to explain it?

Never answers this question. And no if someone who is scummy to you scumreads your scumreads you re-evaluate.

OK, so you are prolly Town here. Reason is because this is a good solid point and the implications of Infinity not answering this are pretty bad looking for Infinity at least, if not ZZZX as well for not following up on that.

For example -- Here I am "prolly Town here".

Then as I continue to push you, you attack me and not the arguments. Then eventually you start scumreading me without the foundation to do so. The short answer is likely you don't want me in a town block.

[MathBlade]

Each of those reads must be substantiated and supported and not come from nowhere. This is where naked reads help.

Scum either have to naked townread their buddy which is a dead give away and you see which players scum see as a threat as they can't townread that player.

So an Alisae / ZZX team doesn't townread LaLight. It is counterintuitive to do so for them. This game is who you townread not who you scumread.

[MathBlade]

Spoiler: Infinity early game posts

I don't understand LQ but I'm pretty sure he's town so that's fine.

Moonbird, thoughts on duppin?

I don't understand LQ but I'm pretty sure he's town so that's fine.

Could you explain this read?

Actually several players have called him town now but no one has bothered to explain why. I'd like to know if I am missing something or if it's just a character read.

Essentially, I find it much more likely for town to put themselves out there this early on. I also think his thought process makes a lot of sense as town but I don't see why he would be so convoluted as scum.

You explained pretty well why I don't understand LQ, but I'm not seeing the tryhardiness and the tone coming from scum here.

But good point about scum maybe feeling like they have to townread him.. I would like the other people who townread LQ to explain their reasoning.

I know you are quite a strong town player, but can you tell me any game you're scum in? Thanks!

What was the point of this question?

Also, didn't you townread LQ? Why did you?

I need to reread. I'm not sure where to go from here.

Normally I trust VCA a lot more than my normal reads. But here, n_m or momo would have to be scum for lalight to be a counterwagon (unless guilty was bussing duppin and then decided to CW his own wagon??)

Nonetheless, the votes are still making me doubt my lalight scumread. Especially since my d1 scumreads aren't usually very accurate.

Duppin...honestly I don't remember what he posted. That bothers me.

Guilty feels town to me but I remember him being such obvious town in every other towngame I've seen of his. So I'm waiting for that, I guess.

ZZZX I still don't have a read on. Moonbird looked town but where is he?

LQ is town, momo tentative town.

That's it.

Take for example Infinity here. His definite read on LQ Town is only tone which his not a reason and doesn't ask a single question to sort LQ. Town LQ should have been concerned someone townread him for no reason. He also dreaded townreading a player. And he has spent more time talking about his tentative read than the not tentative and has more responses supporting that.

[MathBlade]

Anyone can take a snapshot at any point. Reads must be consistent and have reasons throughout those points. Someone can and should be able to take a snapshot at any point and then go "I understand where Math's reads are and where they come from" if they can't I am not doing a good job as Town. Arbitrary is entirely acceptable.

The purpose was actually to see if I was scumreading you incorrectly. Then go through and see as there was no traction on you or Infinity at the time. The point in time was because I was trying to assess the gamestate. I was also trying to demonstrate Town blocks as I thought a bigger one existed but then objectively it didn't. However no one ever has to have a reason for a point to start and then read backwards for verification. Anyone can do it. And should anyone reach a different conclusion from that point working backwards j welcome that.

And at that time I had not. My cases were based on that time backward.

Take for example the US. If I say as of 2000 the US has had less than 50 presidents then 300 years later you go "look waaay more than 50 presidents". Your answer is irrelevant. I was going from one point to another. Furthermore I did not ignore those posts I addressed them afterward.

[MathBlade]

That's a pretty weakly reasoned reads list but I can't argue with someone scumreading my other 2 suspects.

VOTE: lalight

This is way overdue

Which part of it is weak though, Care to explain it?

Never answers this question. And no if someone who is scummy to you scumreads your scumreads you re-evaluate.

OK, so you are prolly Town here. Reason is because this is a good solid point and the implications of Infinity not answering this are pretty bad looking for Infinity at least, if not ZZZX as well for not following up on that.

For example -- Here I am "prolly Town here".

Then as I continue to push you, you attack me and not the arguments. Then eventually you start scumreading me without the foundation to do so. The short answer is likely you don't want me in a town block.

M8 I've been fighting the way you are going about getting your reads for the better portion of half the thread. That is me attacking your arguments, not you.

And what is the point of pointing out that I had a Town read on you when you had barely engaged with the majority of members in the game? Is it not valid that my read has change on you for observable reasons? My starting reasons for Scum reading you were the same as they are now, namely that you are representing an objective case that is blatantly false.

Lol no. It isn't. You've been called out by multiple people (not just myself) that your posts attack the player and not the argument. You have said a lot of words but you just say I am wrong but still aren't attacking the points. You're just saying bias and wrong. And then when you do try it is a misrep like forwards not backwards.

And your reasons again are not observable. The only thing you have demonstrated towards me is a dislike of my scumread of you. Your read has no other reason than Math took objective facts and reached the "wrong" (air quotes as I think it is right) conclusion and scumreads me.

You ignore the question I ask about who could be my partner in this case. You do this because I can't have a partner and you can't back it up.

[MathBlade]

And LOL if I get lynched. What's going to happen when MathBlade is out of Scum reads and the game isn't over?

The game will be over.

And if it isn't then like I said I look at Alisae + ZZX or GL depending upon how this day goes.

[MathBlade]

Again...You do not understand and reiterate the same damn points.

I refuse to spam the thread and repeat myself further than this post.

I asked people's townreads to keep them consistent under threat of townblock and VCA. I was demonstrating it FOR Alisae. You flipped me to a non town read. You were scared of me in a townblock. I was no longer a "bad" but town player but a bonafide scumread. You have to get me lynched to win the game for your team.

I gotta go but seriously...LQ is obvScum here people.

[MathBlade]

One last thing though

ONE LAST TIME LQ ASSUME I AM SCUM WHO IS MY PARTNER?!?!?!?!?!?!

[MathBlade]

anyway I still think Infinity was scum

gonna do a re-think on viable partners but I think it's gotta be one of LaLight/Lickety/ZZZX given that VC I called out earlier where we stalled on three L-2 wagons

but I'm slightly paranoid of the way MathBlade is trying to do a LaLight/MathBlade townbloc, because I don't follow 1182. How do those lynches rule out something like a LaLight/LQ or LaLight/MathBlade team?

LaLight LQ is because of the Not Mafia wagon. Scum don't 1-2 on day one in a flipless. They'd lose all control and with a wagon on LaLight happening just before that.

LaLight + me would be entirely Town driven lynch on town d2 with moonbird been inactive most of the early game. In essence Town would have to shoot itself in the foot twice without anyone influencing them. Good players like LQ and Alisae and Infinity would all have to have off days in order for LaLight to be scum.

[MathBlade]

One last thing though

ONE LAST TIME LQ ASSUME I AM SCUM WHO IS MY PARTNER?!?!?!?!?!?!

I don't read people based off associations between one person and another!!!

okay I'm gonna jump in here

this seems like the main point of disagreement, although to be honest I've only skimmed some of the latest 1v1

- MathBlade is saying, to my understanding, that

reads themselves

are fundamentally an association between players. You can't think 2 people are scum without thinking the other 7 are town. You can't think there is scum alive still unless 2 of the lynched players were town. etc, etc.
- If I'm understanding it right - might be adding my own thoughts here - I also think MathBlade is suggesting that your version of scumhunting based on pro-town or anti-town play is not going to be useful or lead to valuable lynches because you can repeatedly keep scumreading who ever is playing the "scummiest" of the remaining alive players, and that's why it's important to always be presenting your townreads/scumreads especially after each lynch where you need to evaluate with new information if/when the game continues.
- You are saying their push on you is scummy because you are town and they're manipulating what you've said and holding you to an arbitrary standard that they're not applying to other players.

It's obvious that regardless of alignment there's friction in style of flipless play here but I'm not finding most of the surrounding walls about it to be very useful or informative.

Can you try to answer MathBlade's question? I don't see why you can't even venture opinions on it. Do you think we've lynched at least 1 scum already?

+1

[MathBlade]

In this game if two scum were lynched it would be game over. So necessarily at least two of the three people lynched were Town if not all three. Since the game is not over that is a fact.

And calling bullshit on LQ. You do do the associations as you specifically were considering Not Mafia or Duppin scum.

So what conclusion did you reach? Who is Town and who is scum of the dead?

[MathBlade]

viewtopic.php?p=7411718&user_select%5B% ... 5#p7411718

Sample game that backups my theory: Note plurality lynches.

CN and Ranger never vote for each other.

[MathBlade]

viewtopic.php?p=7411718&user_select%5B% ... 5#p7411718

Sample game that backups my theory: Note plurality lynches.

CN and Ranger never vote for each other.

How do you explain me voting Infinity if Infinity is Scum? Its a fucking different thing altogether. You would have to be arguing that I am Scum with LaLight for this to be valid since I believe that is the only slot I haven't voted.

That vote doesn't count as it was a vote to remove pressure.

You were never serious about wanting him lynched.

[MathBlade]

Spoiler: Pretty much everything I have ever done even close to Infinity

VOTE: Infinity

For reasons stated by momo.

There are some things here that rub be the wrong way.

Hm well, I'm going to share my reads as well.

Moonbird is town. I trust my d1 read.

Why didn't you elaborate here when you elaborated on everyone else? It makes the read look fake and like you are trying to make Town!moonbird a gimme when it isn't.

I think Momo seems very town after yesterday. Not because of one specific post but because of the way he interacted with NM. I thought that was really townie.

I Town read momo for pretty much the exact opposite concept. I like momo's read on Infinity which is why I am Town reading momo. All the interactions from momo with NM can be faked pretty easily.

I feel better about LQ, but I do think he is capable of playing like that as scum as well. But still leaning town as I believe he is approaching the game the correct way.

this one def needs more elaboration at the very least. For one, you never said once you were Scum reading me so I don't know how you could "feel better about LQ" when you said this earlier:

I agree with everything LQ said and I still get the impression that it applies to momo as well.

VOTE: Not_mafia

But then earlier than that you say:

So my read on LQ is I do not think his content has been very good. I think most of his reads have been very questionable, I dislike the pushes he has made (I'm leaning town on moonbird at the moment for one simple reason and that is he seemed to imply he had an actual real reason for voting on momo. I'd like to hear his reasoning first though) and I really did not like his post on page 1. It all seemed over the top, him calling his own posts the "first pro town" play in the game etc just seemed off to me. I understand that this could simply just be his playstyle, but I wasn't a fan of it. I also don't understand the inconsistency, he instantly scumreads some players for a naked vote while townreading others and from my point of view the obvious conclusion he should make from that is that a naked vote isn't alignment indicative.

So how can you both agree with everything I have said but disagree with things I have said? It makes no sense.

GL I initially had as town, but his tunneling on me is starting to weird me out and I also disliked what he did near the end of the day, calling both of the wagons town (especially the NM read, I don't see how he could ever be anything but a null read to you at that point), while trying to setup lynches for d2. It seemed very sketchy. But I did feel like a lot of what he did on d1 came from a town perspective so meh. I'm finding it a bit difficult to get a proper read on him when he is tunneling me like that.

This is right BS right here. You never talk about your Town read on GL once before this. You never talk about GL before this at all. So it looks like you are just making up a read to make yourself sound good.

I liked Infinity d1, probably a bit biased though but I actually liked the way he pushed on LaLight for his read on me. Looking back at it it's probably a silly read but whatever. Not a fan of what he is doing today at all though, it seems very opportunistic.

You can't both agree with me about me saying you need to provide reasons for your reads and then Town read someone for not providing reads for stuff. You say you liked what Infinity did D1. What did you like about Infinity? You haven't said what you have liked about infinity, just that you liked him D1 and that is with the conundrum that Infinity doesn't provide reasons for his reads. There is only one reason to Town read Infinity and I'm leaving that up to you to tell me what that is.

I've already went over my thoughts on LaLight, I find him suspicious.

You are Scum reading LaLight for NAI reasons.

As for ZZZX, I don't really have a read on you at all.

Why no explanation here? Nothing just leaving it blank? Why?

VOTE: duppin

I have Town reads on GL, momo. Reason for this is that they are thinking about the game critically and generally have a Town narrative and are game solving.

I have as somewhat less of a Town read on ZZZX and Lalight. ZZZX seems to have a Town perspective and is thinking about the game, same with LaLight. The reason these two are not as high of Town reads as the other two is because they are not playing as game solvay in an active way.

Next we have Infinity 324 and moonbird. These players are doing some things that Town players do, but they are not quite doing enough to show they are Town. Consider these very slight Town reads or Null reads.

Lastly, duppin, who has seemed to have given up which is not a Town mentality to have. I expect Town to want to fight their lynch to the bitter end.

And lets be clear, you were not specific at all when you quoted my interaction with duppin. Why is what I did in this reads list worse than what you are doing with your response to my conversation with duppin?

I pointed out specific things with duppin's play, like the read on you and the overdefensiveness and I was thinking about how they could come from town or scum. You didn't do that.

But you've shown in other posts that your reads do have depth to them. Just not that one.

Defensive =/= Scum

This is why your specifics don't count.

Because I like his stream of consciousness. I like that he was doing that when the thread was dead. It looked very natural and didn't look like he was hiding anything, just straight stream of consciousness when nothing was happening in the thread, and he didn't make bad points either.

I'm a sucker for a good stream of consciouness, but that one seemed pretty fakeable. There was nothing special about it to me. Yes scum are less likely to post when the thread is dead but they do need to post at some point or people will wonder where they are. Maybe lalight thought taking the initiative would make him look town.

He's been active throughout the game so I consider it a Town tell that he posts when he doesn't have to. Occam's Razor: If it looks like he is Town, he prolly is. I don't like you stating that its WIFOM on whether he is Town based on that given it looks like he is Town. I've said before, he doesn't have bad points so there is no reason to Scum read him.

@360: My point is not that lalight must be scum because he looks town, my point is that it's not a hard thing for scum to do and not a reason for much of a townread imo. Also I pointed out the issues I have with lalight, do you disagree with them?

Your reasons for Scum reading LaLight are unrealistic and not grounded in what is typical in the slightest. I don't think you are making up reasons, but it sure looks like your points miss the mark. That's why they don't count for much. You also don't articulate your points well enough considering they are largely unconventional methods to read people.

I was actually just thinking duppin was town. The thought process evaluating lalight and the bias against GL for tunneling on him look very town to me.

What makes you think Scum don't do that?

Also, did you even read my read on duppin? My is based on duppin's emotions. So what about my emotion based read on duppin is off?

IMO both Infinity and ZZZX are both equally Scummy. I really hope I am not wrong, but I don't mind lynching both of these players back to back.

Why am I scum :/

Because your analysis is off and you fight against the duppin wagon.

I want to see why zzzx says he hammered so early. I'm not sure town wouldn't do that.

But I'm not too opposed to his lynch since he's one of the few people I don't townread.

this is why I am Scum reading you. Your analysis is off. It doesn't matter if you think Town wouldn't do that. Its impossible to tell because there are no flips in this game. So while it would def matter if we got a flip on Duppin, we didn't so it doesn't matter because its impossible to tell if Scum or Town is more likely to do that. That's why the basics matter so much in this game. Hammering without a reason given is Scummy, period.

Someone do me a favor and ISO ZZZX and Infinity and search the ISO for LaLight.

I agree. Infinity has been "odd" at every turn. I think its so odd that I think its unlikely that it comes from Town.

I'll vote for either ZZZX or Infinity at this point.

ZZZX's catch up reads post was hugely underwhelming. Duppin provided 10X more to the game in his reads and he was lynched, so I have no mercy for ZZZX on this.

Also to note that I think it was primarily ZZZX and Infinity who were going after LaLight, which I thought was odd. IDK about odd enough for them to be teamed, just something to think about.

If we get 2 correct townreads collectively we win. LQ is one, I think momo might be another.

also I think this is worth discussing

From a neutral perspective, the correct number of collective townreads is

three

. If we have 2 correct collective townreads, we can still mislynch a 3rd person in 5p LYLO to a scumteam of 2.

I see the following scenarios where Infinity gets this wrong:

1) Infinity is town and he included himself in hypothetical 5 person LYLO and assumed he wasn't going to get lynched, he only needs 2 correct townreads
^ I find this somewhat likely, but the problem is he should still be worrying about whether he would be mislynched or not

2) Infinity is town and he assumed we lynched scum already
^ I don't think this is likely at all, Infinity wasn't particularly scumreading either of the lynches and I don't see a reason to be so confident that we lynched scum yet

3) Infinity is scum and we lynched his partner and he slipped in assuming LYLO happens with 3p left
^ I'm not really inclined to buy this though it's loosely possible

4) Infinity is scum and he had a perspective slip here because he's thinking from the perspective of him (scum) + 2 townreads (town) + his partner being a scenario where they "lynch scum" (but actually mislynch a townie and win).
^ This is the most likely explanation outside of 1), I guess

I'm kinda in a coinflip between 1 and 4. Are there other explanations I'm missing here? I've been trying to think from this perspective the whole game, but I've been focused on identifying three correct townreads, so the disconnect here is something I want to call out. What do you guys think?

Honestly I think the most interesting thing in this whole deal is how he [Infinity] is putting momo higher than you in his Town list. That doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me... momo has fell off. They made like one good post and nothing since then, that's why I have LaLight higher in my list than momo currently. I admit, after you it drops substantially. We need to find another Town read and I haven't read LaLights ISO yet (will do tonight). I was kinda Town reading LaLight based on the arguments against them being garbage, but I should prolly take a close look.

I play my game in 3 simple steps:

1- Read reasoning and find out if it is scum-intention, town-intention or null-intention (how about we guess what 95% of the game's posts are? Bullshit that is NaI, Pointless shit)
2- Engage People (I am feeling happy enough about that so far, Lets see what ya'll have to say)
3- Deconstruct the game-state and setup. (barely applies here but still applies)

You haven't even done #1 yet. You have yet to analyze a single post and say how it is Town or Scum intent. Conversely to you I have done this on the first fucking page of the game.

You are engaging people on things that are not really all that poignant to getting reads on people. Anyone can talk just to talk. Show me the money, what are your reads and why do you read them that way.

#3 is really all you have done this game. You made one post explaining a read and that was that I was Town for me basically telling how I read people in every game independent of what Alignment I am. If you think I don't say that as Scum, lol.

Here we have LQ, Quickly hopping and attacking the most easiests posts to attack.

--

OK, LOL. Now I am Scum for attacking posts I am supposed to attack? Are you for real here?

You haven't even done #1 yet. You have yet to analyze a single post and say how it is Town or Scum intent. Conversely to you I have done this on the first fucking page of the game.

I am analysing those posts, Just because I haven't found anything thats worthsharing doesnt mean I haven't done it.

Unless you want me to comment on how 95% of the posts are NaI indivisually.

I like the tone here honestly. Also I don't see why scum!ZZZX would be a closed book here.

--

I agree his tone isn't bad here, but that's not enough to just go based on tone. I was looking at what ZZZX was actually SAYING rather that how what he said came across. Read latter in the thread his tone is completely different - he looks really desperate.

No. That's a playstyle thing and has absolutely nothing to do with alignment. I voted because the post was scummy, then I thought duppin may have brought up a good point so I went back and checked that. If you think that's scummy I don't know what to tell you.

Do you usually consider whimsy scummy and thoroughness towny, or what? I really have no idea where you're getting a scumtell from this.

And yes I missed the way the read changed the first time around.

I like this post a lot! It seems like Inf is considering things and it shows reasonability.

--

This is an ok observation. I mean, if GL was right and Infinity was faking it, Infinity would already have this backstory ready. So I don't get what you didn't like about GL's previous post.

OK, so I took some time to meditate on duppin last night (Yes, literally meditated on what I thought about duppin).

Duppin comes across like he is telling himself "this can't be happening"

I am not 100% that duppin is Scum, but it sure looks like he is really uncomfortable in this game. I think this is much more of a Scum trait than a Town trait. That said, my only reservation is that he is just coming back and is feeling out of sorts as a Townie who is taking heat in his first game back.

I do think duppin fears being made a fool of this game. I think he may be in over his head this game or at least feels that way.

Conclusion: much more likely behavior that this comes from Scum.

VOTE: duppin

Your posture around Duppin is gross. Your reasons for jumping on Dupin are gross. This whole post is gross.

--

K. Why? What is gross about it? Are you saying I am not coming across a genuine here or something? What is the argument you are making here?

Scum pool for me is duppin/zzx/infinity

I'm really in agreement about GL's logic behind NM being town: the wagon encountered no resistance whatever, even though the initiating vote from ZZX was weak and somewhat fency. Yes, as LQ pointed out, resistance is unlikely in a two scum game, but sucm also won't just wander onto a wagon on their buddy D1. Duppin's push on GL continues upon the basis that assuming NM is town is strange; given the context, it really isn't.

Duppin's stance on GL is shit in general. I don't likey. Nor do I like being pocketed by Duppin with, as LQ said, one day's worth of posts and my sudden drop-of-the-face of the earth.

VOTE: Duppin

momo's high horse is zzz

infinity's pushes are weird; i really don't follow their order, especially in 333 and 334. I understand the reasoning, I don't understand how the chain of thought unravels. Apparently GL recognized the same in 392. :^)

I like LaLight.

Okay. For a moment, I had to check the VC to remember GL wasn't on it, because I thought he hopped on it at some point. I think I like GL more, but I still think GL is LQ's buddy.

--

Errr... No-Flip association? Like what makes you think Scum hasn't been lynched yet? Why was NM Town?

Duppin comes across like he is telling himself "this can't be happening"

I am not 100% that duppin is Scum, but it sure looks like he is really uncomfortable in this game. I think this is much more of a Scum trait than a Town trait.

Why would I be uncomfortable? I don't really get that invested in a game especially not when it is my first one back. I sometimes get a bit frustrated in the moment but well yeah. Oh and I've already said that I think it's fairly likely that the lynch is going to end up on me, so even if you thought I felt uncomfortable earlier I'm not sure why I would feel so now.

I do think duppin fears being made a fool of this game. I think he may be in over his head this game or at least feels that way.

Hm not really, although I don't think this is that bad of a read. But I really don't, I think my logic is a good and that is all I really care about.
I'm kind of curious though, if you think I had this mindset + was uncomfortable, would you really expect me as scum to try to push scum you d1, when you went very aggro, tried to take control of the town and had a lot of early townreads on you? It's WIFOM I know, but I'm not entirely sure where this read is coming from.

Duppin's push on GL continues upon the basis that assuming NM is town is strange; given the context, it really isn't.

But I disagree with this. Perhaps NM was town, perhaps he wasn't. Basing your reads on him being town, especially before he even got lynched, makes no sense given the setup unless you had a real town read on him, in which case it would probably be difficult not to, but GL had a null read on him. GL was also just speculating in 422 that if I was town (and several other players) it'd be difficult for him to find two scum, but couldn't that simply be explained by NM was mafia? I have no idea and we obviously shouldn't live in that world either, but I think we should forget about the actual wagon and just focus on our reads.
I'm also not entirely sure why he would hunt for 2 mafias right now, you should just focus on individual reads and then reconsider everyone after a lynch.

if you want me to see that you're town then the best thing to do would be to start pushing someone as scum? Like you're not voting anyone rn and I honestly don't remember who you last said was scum before I go back and reread. I don't see the point in complaining like this

I literally just pushed on LaLight and changed my read on him. I mean it probably isn't that unfair to have expected me to actively push more on players, but honestly that has more to do with this being my game first back, having to spend the majority of the time I have responding to the push on me plus my approach to the game. I said d1 I'm mainly looking for townreads in this setup and then I'll go from there. Actually I'm going to give all of my reads in a moment.

Nor do I like being pocketed by Duppin with, as LQ said, one day's worth of posts and my sudden drop-of-the-face of the earth.

You think I am pocketing you? Out of curiousity how do you attempt to pocket players as scum?
If I wanted to pocket you I would've either actively engaged you somehow or tried to defend you when someone pushed on you, not just give you a read town when giving out my reads. I mean unless you think that I think you're a super weak player and I'd be able to pocket you that easily, then sure I guess.

Also I just want to say that this is pretty much the main problem I have with the push on me, is that it's not really based on my actual content or logic but more so just seems to be pretty vague, like claiming my reads look fake without really explaining why or trying to claim what my intentions were even though logically it doesn't make sense. Like instead of claiming I tried to pocket you, why not address my read on you instead? Do you think my actual reason for townreading you is bad?

The tone in this whole post comes across to me as genuine and I love it and I want to townread it. TOO BAD SCUM!LQ KILLED IT.

--

I'm not sure if I should take this as a compliment or not considering you are giving me full credit for lynching duppin. I mean, I am pretty sure I was just one of the voters out of the majority that wanted duppin lynched, but thanks for having confidence in my ability to push lynches, I guess???

ZZZX what is your actual read on duppin

I don't like how you hammered but didn't say whether you thought it was a good or bad wagon

Faking paranoia on ZZZX.

--

OMG seriously? That was a perfect question that GL asked and you are Scum reading him for it! The confbias is strong in this one.

IMO both Infinity and ZZZX are both equally Scummy. I really hope I am not wrong, but I don't mind lynching both of these players back to back.

Your Inf Vote is bad, and this post is bad. This post litterally screams "I am trying to line up lynches."

--

Yes, I am actually playing correctly here. Because I am so widely Town read, this means I can say things like this to influence the game more. If I would have said this when multiple people were Scum reading, I agree it would be Suspect. But I am actually playing as Town leader at this point in the game and am trying to direct Town so that I have more influence over the game.

Why am I scum :/

Because your analysis is off and you fight against the duppin wagon.

So Inf is scum for opposing a wagon? You're giving Inf no room to breath here if he's town. This is scummy as fuck.

--

You forget the other reason I have for voting Infinity. Why didn't you mention that?

FInally I hammered 1 hour before the deadline, What the fuck is wrong with that?

Am I missing some grand plan here or are you guys missing something? What the fuck is wrong with you all.

I townread this for it's tone.

--

Why is anger a Town emotion?

Sure. you think you're unlynchable and you want others to believe in it. You're not tho. And also you're trying to throw shade on me for scumreading you even given that this is a flipless game. You won't flip town, and you can't convince others to lynch me because I scumread you, because we won't see whether you're town.

How can you read the fact that I say

people who do not give reason for scum-reading me are scum

makes me

unlynchable

?

I've been lynched by scum more times than I care to admit. Doesn't mean I made their lives hell while trying to do it. Admittedly would be harder and self contradictory in this game (since I was the one who said to not trust dead people reads ehm) but that doesn't mean scum (ehm you) can lynch me easily. Big difference from "habitability". How hard are you trying to misrepresent me?

Also I love how your read on me start long ago but you had no reason until then. And now your only reasons are... those shitty posts? Are you fucking serious? Better people have gotten better excuses and yet were clearly scum. Yet now you are telling me that you want to convince the town to lynch

me

using this crap?

p-edit: let me read them after I post this

I love this post and it's tone imo. This post makes me feel a lot better about ZZZX.

Its important to not that ZZZX is using factual information, which means there is no reason to fake any emotions. That's why this tone read on ZZZX doesn't count. I don't expect many people to follow this point, but its there for those who get it.

Let me get this straight. You think in a mountainous, killess, flipless game you are supposed to be MORE sure of your Scum reads? I'm sorry, but that doesn't make any damn sense. Why is it Townie to be absolutely certain of your Scum reads being Scum? This is a claim that needs backing which you don't provide, you just state it like it should just be accepted. So no, your wrong, in a game like this, the person who has the best game based on the basic fundamentals is the person who leads this shin dig, and that doesn't necessitate that the leader of the game needs to be "sure" of their reads. Besides, this is pretty much of no consequence since I think Town wins this game with a Town block of myself, GL and LaLight. Lastly (here) you said my post here was Scummy, but you didn't provide a smidgen of an assessment as to why this is. You just basically stated some general thoughts on the game and then tacked on that you thought my posts was Scummy. No where did you link these two things together to create a cohesive argument.

The game is flipless. I'm saying scum would be more sure that whom they're pushing is town, otherwise they're likely to give away that they're town.

Also, LMAO at this "townbloc"
Bruh, you just salty becuase I saw you infilitrated a townbloc and I'm tearing you the fuck out of it now.
Yeah no, you're scum.
The fact you even suggest there is a townbloc suggests it wasn't formed naturally. If it was, you wouldn't be using the word townbloc.

Also its scummy because it looks like you have more information then I do, thus you are allowed to overanalyize.
IE, you're scum.

--

I am not even going to answer this. I will let others make up their minds on whether the Town block happened "naturally" or not.

And I know its your dream to catch Scum!LQ since you have never done that before, but this is not the game you are going to do it because I am Town in this one.

Again, you make an assertion without saying how it links to me being Scummy. Why is it Scummy for me to come out with a read in my first few posts? I am pretty sure you have seen me do that as Town. So this is just poorly thought out shade on your part. I got the conclusion for exactly what I said, RTFT. I gave my argument. If you don't understand the argument, that is one thing. Its completely different for you to give an excuse for not getting the argument because its on page 1... This is a red herring argument because what page it is should hold no bearing on whether you understand the argument or not. And LOL that "reach" is based on YOUR slot... So you are basically arguing that you are not Town here

It's scummy because it looks like you have a lot more information that I do. Meaning you're scum.

And oh look, LQ looks he found a "slip" how adorable.
Yeah, push more things that aren't "slips" scum.
That's not even my slot dude.
I replaced momo, not Inf.
Now you're just trying to wiggle out of your momo TR.

--

So I am Scum for being good at the game now?

Not going to comment on the slip thing.

Looks like you found the caps button, nice job, that should make you argument more credible. I am pretty sure all you are arguing at this point is that people shouldn't have reads early. You have yet to say why having early reads is Scummy. Why don't you talk to like, Ranger or something and as them what they think of making early reads. A lot of the time I provide early reads to get us out of RVS... I have done this many times and its the very first time I have seen you use this argument against me. Also, I don't buy that you are actually worked up about this. I think its out of character for you to use caps as a general rule and considering what you are using the caps for, namely me having early reads, it reads extremely ingenuine.

Lol what even is the point of the "Looks like you found the caps button" part. That's shade for no reason that you aren't really doing much with. And yeah, people shouldn't have reads ON PAGE 1.

--

People shouldn't have reads on page one huh?

viewtopic.php?p=9114341#p9114341

Not even going to explain this to you and you will never figure out how I got this read.

I have never heard you use the phase "Holy shit I love this guy" and in fact, I don't think I have ever seen you agree with someone with adoration like this before... ever. If you have done this as Town, I'd like a link. So far your tone seems way off your Town game tone. Also, way to drop a bunch of buzzwords as your reason for Town reading someone that has nothing to do with the quoted post. These questions and assertions that moonbird is saying is not "games solvey" it is a defence of my attack on moonbird. I agree its a good defence, but it is still a defense and not a post that indicates that they are game solving. This is a subtle difference and I hope people understand what I am saying here because I am not sure people will be able to follow me here because its kinda an advanced outlook on things and not your basic shit that Alisae keeps droning on about.

LMAO what is this arguement even. The whole arguement of "I never saw you say that as town" is honestly just an excuse to again, wiggle out of your momo read. Though I can explain that, basicly Moon disregarded meta in a way I found really towny.

--

Give me a link where you have done this as Town.

I'm pretty sure nowhere in my reasoning in the quoted post did I argue that duppin is Scum based on his read of Infinity. So guess what? That a classic case of a strawman. I had not given a read on momo at that point in the game and I know this for a fact. So unless you can dream up reasoning on how me voting someone who did a naked vote when I said I wasn't going to tolerate naked votes means I am Scum I am pretty sure you have no argument. And lets be clear here, I wasn't voting duppin based on them voting momo, I was voting them based on the fact that he was doing IIoA (in the traditional sense ie. setup talk) and on top of this after that fact he does a naked vote. So you are ascribing reasoning into the motivation for my vote that wasn't there and wasn't even implied. What was implied is that duppin was only talking setup talk about WIFOM things and then LATER decided to do a RVS vote. You can see this in the order of quotes that I quoted. This was talked about later itt as well with duppin. It turns out that it was an RVS vote and duppin didn't know anything about momo. It was also discussed later that I had said I had a Null read on the momo slot and NOT a Town read. Unless you can prove that my vote on duppin was because I was Town reading momo, then your argument her holds no water. And since there is NO evidence for your argument itt, it is actually YOU who are reaching.

I REPLACED MOMO NOT INF. HOLY SHIT THIS DUMBTELL IS SO FAKE, AND IT'S A BUNCH OF MISREP BECAUSE I DIDN'T EVEN MENTION INF ANYWHERE IN THOSE POSTS.

--

More Strawman arguments, lovely. Nowhere in this entire thread did I ever say someone slipped as a means to Scumread someone. I think you should know my stance on "slips" and I am pretty sure you are really underestimating me thinking I only hold that point of view as Town. You have been in several games where I talk about my stance on slips. Find a new argument because this one is not going to work at all. And LOL??? I am Scummy for pushing facts?? What the actual fuck is that kind of reasoning??? Also, your hypothetical sucks serious balls, deep throat style. What good is a hypothetical here? The only thing it does is entertain the idea that I am Scum based on someone's imagination and isn't based on anything in reality.

Bruh, you litterally said

In short this is a perspective slip.

and used it to push this early moonbird read.
If that's not you pushing what you think is a "slip"
then please explain to me what it actually is.

I don't think much of most slips, but perspective slips are a thing. They happen when someone has a change of character - they change their outlook on the game in a way that shows their perspective has changed without giving any reasons for it. And no, its not the same as changing a read on someone. Its the kind of thing that they are talking with their teammates and withing the PT they agree they should change their perspective. They then change their perspective which is in direct conflict with what they had said earlier - they miss a step in the process where they were supposed to say something that lead to their change in perspective. It can also happen with an individual Scum member when they can't keep their story straight. They get caught up with lies and forget what they said earlier and then contradict themselves.

K... why the fuck is it fake?

It's fake because tonally it reads empty and uninterested. It seems like he doesn't care. Like "Oh, it's over." Hence why I read it as fake.

So... kinda like my initial read on Infinity, I gotcha.

Reason for this is that duppins vote was naked as we see later and GLs vote wasn't RVS. Evidence for this itt thread is that GL said he say RVS was over. That indicates that his vote isn't RVS and duppins vote was RVS. I also hated the tone of duppins post and loved the tone of GL's post.

Yeah, that's really clear. TBH, I don't understand what dupin was trying to get out of that naked vote. Like, I don't see the reward in that if they were scum. I don't think it's something they would do as scum. I don't understand how you don't see dupin's vote as RVS.

--

This is where you start to lose it Alisae and your case starts to fall apart because you don't understand the subtlety of my post.

I do see Duppins vote as RVS... I just see it as coming after they have discussed other things, which isn't typically how RVS works. What does he get out of it if he is Scum? He blends in, that's what he gets. Why wouldn't he do it as Scum? If your reading it strictly as RVS it should be NAI... you argued reads shouldn't be done on page 1, well, you are reading duppin as Town based on a very early post.

I really hate to interrupt you making a scene, but my reason for the statement that I made that momo is lynch bait and me not Town reading momo was based on me being more careful with my read on momo since I knew he was lynch bait. But sure, if your naked assertion that I am Scum for pointing out that momo is lynchbait means I am Scum, go ahead and roll with it. I mean, its not at all based on what the actual thread says, but you seem to have an active imagination, so it kinda suits you to have this outlook not based on anything in reality.

So is NM, and you defintiely were not careful with that, but momo is and you were? Lol okay then.

--

Because I know NM, I know he's not going to change his game unless he gets PLed a few times. With momo, he's pretty new and can still have hope to change from being really bad lynch bait to someone who isn't lynch bait. I was lynch bait once upon a time. I still struggle with it sometimes (depending on the game), but overall people can read me as Town when I am Town. Now if you want to argue that somehow me being lynch bait means I can trick people when I am Scum, we can talk about that after the game, but the short version is, if people are Town reading me, I am prolly Town.

I had no way of knowing what duppins experience with momo was. Why was it Scummy for me to point out that momo is lynch bait? I am just asking for a reason here, and please be articulate with your reason.

So you attack them fore it instead of informing them and then seeing what their reaction is? It's that you basicly voted dupin for attacking lynchbait instead of just informing them to find out what their reaction was. If you did this, fine. But instead you attacked them for knowledge that they were supposed to know how again?

--

I don't think I ever actually used the argument that duppin is Scum because he voted on lynch bait. That was my initial assertion, but later I had different reasons for Scum reading him. Go back and look but I only brought up that he voted lynch bait a single time.

I'll ask the obvious question here I guess. How does it imply that I was Town reading him? Like how, not just that it does because that is not going to work. You are arguing that the argument I made later itt about my reasoning that I have a null read on momo because he has one post and he is lynch bait so I want to be careful about my read on him is a lie. That is what you are arguing. Now back that up with something besides just speculation. I was not attacking duppin FOR voting momo. I was attacking duppin for making a naked RVS vote after he had already dipped his toe in the water with IIoA previously itt.

It implies you're townreading him when you essentially attack Dupin for voting them.

--

K, you've just proven that you don't understand my argument.

Why don't you articulate yourself this way in your read on myself and GL?

This sounds like scum getting caught for the wrong reasons. Also, I have been doing that as I've been catching up

This is pretty funny actually, not going to lie.

What do you mean? What are you talking about? Serious question here since I legit don't understand this. Why are you talking about buddying? Where has it looked like ZZZX is buddying me?

Scumbuddies not buddying.

More words are necessary.

A townbloc is 3 people who agree never to lynch each other. Strong ones form naturally, weak ones form artifically.
{Momo, GL, and LQ} was a townbloc.
Unless I'm reading wrong.

{me, GL, LQ} was a townbloc

From what I was reading, it seemed like GL, and LQ had no interest in lynching momo. I think the townbloc before I replaced in was {momo, GL, LQ, you} and you and momo just didn't get along. But I don't think we're getting anywhere with this townbloc talk.

My lynch order is:

ZZZX>>Infinity>>moonbird>Alisae>>>LaLight>GL

That's a pretty weakly reasoned reads list but I can't argue with someone scumreading my other 2 suspects.

VOTE: lalight

This is way overdue

Which part of it is weak though, Care to explain it?

Never answers this question. And no if someone who is scummy to you scumreads your scumreads you re-evaluate.

OK, so you are prolly Town here. Reason is because this is a good solid point and the implications of Infinity not answering this are pretty bad looking for Infinity at least, if not ZZZX as well for not following up on that.

Don't want to waste time talking about why my townread's read reasoning was weak in one post while I have catching up to do. Once I'm caught up remind me if it's that important.

I didn't answer the question CAUSE I WAS VLA

THAT makes me scum?

Jesus math even you are better than this

I can't re-evaluate when there's no new info. I'm just going to re-read the thread the same way I read it the first time.

You've since been back and still didn't answer that question tho.

Why am I scum :/

Because your analysis is off and you fight against the duppin wagon.

You are likely scum with Infinity based on this post here.

That's an association read which shouldn't be done in a flipless game. I hardly even do flip analysis in a normal game, how you gunna do it in a flipless game?

Association should be done even more so in a flipless game.

In a flipless game you see who says what and doesn't back it up.

Flipless is all about the associations. Otherwise there is zilch Togo on.

OK, you clearly see things the complete opposite way that I do regarding flipless games. The way I see it is all we have is whether someone does things that are Scummy to and in itself - associations mean zilch because we don't know what lynches are correct or not correct with any kind of certainty at all. Your argument HAS to regress to what my argument is because otherwise you wouldn't be able to make associations - because the initial association read is based on how Townie or Scummy a player played that was lynched. Like you are dumb for not getting this. Get on my level.

Calling me dumb is not a way to convince me my assessment is wrong.

You are categorically refusing to answer who is Town of Not_Mafia and Duppin. One or more HAVE to be Town. And then from that basing your reads. Instead you are acting as if that never happened.

Instead you call me stupid when I directly refuse your reason ZZX should be lynched namely the hammer.

I am not going to "Get on your level" because that requires disregarding your shitty play implying there would be a day three then your bullshit attack on infinity for defending someone you townread Duppin.

Bro, we don't have any clues as to which one of ZZZX or NM or both are Town. We only know that at least one has to be. That said, I now see you point on reading associations based on narrowing down who is Town based on flips. I just thing its impossible to tell if Scum have any idea what they are doing at all. Maybe I am biased because I am so good at distancing, but I figure if I can create not ties to my buddies, then other people can do it too. We will never know for certain which flips are what and that's my real point.

Again you're using flipful mafia rules, in a flipless game. Where if you actually bothered to address my question and answer it you would have said ZZX from your POV is scum based on where your vote is.

Any player who is categorically proven wrong yet doesn't change their reads or provide analysis into doing so is scum.

Infinity is scum for being off both wagons and sheeping/working with ZZX despite calling him a scumread. This makes LaLight Town by that virtue alone. I still notice you say I didn't give reasons when this is literally what I said above too.

You are scum when despite being shown ZZX is a scum pocket and despite being shown evidence you were wrong somewhere before in prior days you keep trucking along as if nothing changed. You attack Infinity yet never Vote him and yet you say Duppin was likely town and so then defending Town would not be stupid.

Join me on Infinity or scum claim more. Your choice.

Minus the points against me in this posts, I really like this. You can be Town. Bringing in new shit to analyze is usually a Townie behavior.

If you really like it you'd quit voting LaLight/ZZX and join me on infinity.

Again with the "You would do X as Town" argument that is completely falsifiable unless its literally the ONLY possibility, which its not.

Alright, tho, I will join you on Infinity because I want to work with Town and I have been Scum reading Infinity for a while now anyways.

VOTE: Infinity

I would like to make a distinction for everyone's sanity between reads and unflipped associations, the latter of which is between two players, assumes the alignment of one player, and should not be done. Thank you.

Yeah, this is my point in regards to MathBlades theory as well.

on reread, LaLight is pretty bad. I'd rather lynch him before N_M

VOTE: LaLight

Then he does a naked unvote on LaLight.

Not to vote Duppin who he has been tunneling but just to stop voting someone the game isn't scum reading anymore

. After all, you can only vote who everyone else scum reads. Food for thought....

what's your point here? I unvoted because I didn't want to see LaLight lynched anymore. And please explain exactly what you mean by the bolded, because as far as I can tell I was the first person to unvote LaLight and the first person to start explicitly townreading her. There was no point in going back to duppin since we had something like 5 hours left in the day at most.

GuiltyLion, I have a question as well by the way. What if NM was indeed mafia?

well then we're in a much better spot, aren't we? I'd rather play defensively as if he were town than play overconfident as if he were mafia. If he's mafia then scum was probably pushing elsewhere which would pretty much only make it Infinity or moonbird FMPOV, though I suspect those two would throw me in as a possible NM scumpartner as well.

I could vote zzzx but I don't think what's he's doing is scummy. Even though he needs to post more game-relevant content.

This is kinda of a weird stance to take on a read, Are you trying to distance yourself from the lynch while being ready to join in on it?

This pinged my scumdar for some reason. Anyway will take note.

i'm with you on this

and I think Infinity's back and forth with LaLight is bad too

...

did I say you said you did?

Fair enough, but I'm not so much scumreading GL as I am questioning my town read on him. It's becoming increasingly difficult to keep trusting my town read when I feel like he is tunneling me really badly. I'm pretty sure I could just say hi at this point and he'd find a way to call me scum for it.

if you want me to see that you're town then the best thing to do would be to start pushing someone as scum? Like you're not voting anyone rn and I honestly don't remember who you last said was scum before I go back and reread. I don't see the point in complaining like this

i had the guy as lean scum,

did you? because this is all I saw from your ISO:

ZZZX haven't told a single word about duppin, though talking about everyone else.

I have no thoughts on duppin, Nothing sticked to my mind, I can iso him though.

the issue isn't the hammer, it's that you hammered without saying

anything

about what you thought about duppin and the wagon.

If we get 2 correct townreads collectively we win. LQ is one, I think momo might be another.

also I think this is worth discussing

From a neutral perspective, the correct number of collective townreads is

three

. If we have 2 correct collective townreads, we can still mislynch a 3rd person in 5p LYLO to a scumteam of 2.

I see the following scenarios where Infinity gets this wrong:

1) Infinity is town and he included himself in hypothetical 5 person LYLO and assumed he wasn't going to get lynched, he only needs 2 correct townreads
^ I find this somewhat likely, but the problem is he should still be worrying about whether he would be mislynched or not

2) Infinity is town and he assumed we lynched scum already
^ I don't think this is likely at all, Infinity wasn't particularly scumreading either of the lynches and I don't see a reason to be so confident that we lynched scum yet

3) Infinity is scum and we lynched his partner and he slipped in assuming LYLO happens with 3p left
^ I'm not really inclined to buy this though it's loosely possible

4) Infinity is scum and he had a perspective slip here because he's thinking from the perspective of him (scum) + 2 townreads (town) + his partner being a scenario where they "lynch scum" (but actually mislynch a townie and win).
^ This is the most likely explanation outside of 1), I guess

I'm kinda in a coinflip between 1 and 4. Are there other explanations I'm missing here? I've been trying to think from this perspective the whole game, but I've been focused on identifying three correct townreads, so the disconnect here is something I want to call out. What do you guys think?

Surprisingly, these are the only posts I actually really like from GL... on a reread of his ISO, admittedly, he doesn't look that good.

I like you are re-evaluating GL.
I don't like how you suddenly decided to do it.
Can you explain more about GL to me and what you're seeing? That might help me a bit.

What I am seeing about GL is that a lot of his accusations are based on subjective things that may or may not be true. I see him looking into the motivations of people, which is good, its just not rooted in anything concrete. It has a lot to do with how and what he is pushing. The arguments he uses for why people are Scum can be seen a reachy or tin foily, which I don't like.

What prompted me wanting to give GL another look is that I felt like I was biasing him as town a little too much. I was right on that, I was confbiasing him as Town far more than he deserved. I tend to reevaluate people more as Town than I do as Scum. In fact, I reevaluate people so much as Town, that it actually works to my detriment sometimes. People I had as Scum and were Scum I change to a Town read. I second guess my Town reads as well. I am just trying to fine tune my game before the Mafia Championships.

If you're really helping me lynch your Infinity scumread why are you talking more about GuiltyLion?
Make me a case on Infinity please.
Also still waiting on your re-evaluation:)

Is there a reason I shouldn't reevaluate GL?
I am unsure on Infinity. I try not to bias. That means if I see something I don't like, I call it out. I've already done that on Infinity. I'm not going to look for reasons, that's a poor way to play and is the reason Alisae has me as a Scum read.
Infinity's content is weird... I don't get some of the things he is repping he is seeing. It sums up to Infinity acting a little too much like his is looking for reasons that aren't there. That said, he and I agree with each other and disagree with you on that whole associations thing. I consider that more of a playstyle thing rather that that pointing to his alignment tho. I will go and look at Infinities ISO tomorrow. From what I remember, he seems to be Scum hunting quite a bit though.

*shouldn't

EBWOP

@Infinity, you could have found this easy enough on your own:

ZZZX's content has bee pretty bad. Like its just not Townie. I expect Town to have good points on this instead of talking about peripherals all game, which is what ZZZX is doing. I even told them they need to step up their game and I see no change, still talking about other things other than why people are Town or Scum.

VOTE: ZZZX

Also I would like anyone who townreads lalight to engage me on it. Whenenver I bring up a point on lalight you guys just say he's town and move on to something else. I really don't see lalight genuine trying to sort people.

You are too hung up on his early game. He had some good stuff from about his post 30 of his ISO on is what I saw when I ISOed him.

I disagree and I've explained why in my catchup posts.

Talk this through with me.

I can't remember specifics, but I know one thing I said is that if LaLight is Scum here, their tone is unreal. Like they are playing so fucking calm it is unbelievable if they are Scum FMPOV. I did play in a game where LaLight was Scum so I will ISO LaLight there and see if I can tell a difference.

In regards to late game: Yes we are.

We have 7 alive.
This means we have at most 4 more days left.
The majority of posts in a mafia game come from the first half of days. So this is getting close to end game.

I disagree. We are at late game when we have one mislynch left. This post rubs me the wrong way all over.

*Hops in the shower grabs some soap and rubs it all over*

Oh yeah let the post really sink in.

Look at post counts. Regardless of the speed of the game almost all posts come in the beginning. Mafia to me is like chess. Day one you have your opening. Day two you have your mid game where Town and scum jostle for control of the center of the thread. Day three plus is end game. If players don't react to a pawn or a knight falling they aren't likely playing the same game and thus are likely scum.

To me, chess is so loosely tied to Mafia that the comparison on the similarities are not even worth it. Mafia deals way more with psychology rather than always trying to remember what is the correct move.

The only reason there are more posts in the beginning of the game is because that is when there are the most players in the game. Content does slow down the closer it gets to end game

sometimes

but the dynamic of the game is completely different as well. I typically do my best reading in early game and late game. Reason for this is that the mid game Scum can easily slide by and get away with a lot of shit and they don't have to put as much effort into the game to get somewhere. Late game Scum stick out more because they have to push harder for their myslynches. In early game they push things less strongly than any other part of the game. So I read Scum based on what I think of a possible agenda Scum could have. Besides that, I typically am better at finding Town reads early and Scum reads late game.

BTW, I know Infinity has been a bit off, but just being a bit off is what I know of his Town game. Also, he hasn't been trapped based on rational thought yet, which I think looks really good for him.

Going to:

UNVOTE:

But I might come back here if I don't see something I am looking for from Town!Infinity.

In short, LaLights tone is unreal if they are Scum here. They have made good points along the way and have generally just been playing a solid game. Consider this my solid second highest Town read. So as long as we don't lynch between myself, GL and LaLight, I think we win this one.

whyyyy

Why what?

"Omg ZZZX has not done much scum hunting but responded well to pressure.. FUCK HIM HES MY #1 Scum read"
"LALight has not really scum read ... but he responded well to pressure... TOP TOWN READ"

I wont lie. I am starting to suspect my initial read on you. I don't believe town can say things so... dumb

Why is what I said dumb?

Very simple, Its just dumb. Read my post its freaking self explinatory.

M8, it makes no sense considering I haven't had LaLight as a Scum read anywhere in the game.

He actually bring up a good point. Lalight and zzzx both haven't done much scumhunting in your opinion, and they both reacted well to pressure. Why is one a townread and one a scumread.

I definitely still think you're town, but yeah. I like how zzzx is questioning the universal townread.

LaLights content has just been way more relevant and that is the key difference.

If you're saying something is doable by the other alignment it means you yourself are not as sure of it either way.

It is okay to townread LaLight. Give yourself permission.

Ok let me expand on this. The sentiment in 586 is one I've felt before as town. I hate it when people get frustrated and give up instead of trying to work with me. So naturally I'm going have some doubts when I see that. But I can definitely see that from scum too who's pretending to be cooperative. Scum!lalight just dropped a whole case on zzzx, presumably to avoid the argument. I think lalight would at least want to keep open the option of getting zzzx on his side.

I also like that he was paying attention to the deadline, but it's a relatively easy thing to fake all things considered. You just have to stop for a sec and think what town would do in that case

I just think that all of this is small compared to lalight just not trying to sort people.

PEdit: ok I'll check that out LQ

You realize me stopping and thinking about town would do in those cases has me pointing to LQ and you right?

LQ's entire point of why you both are Town is that I am incapable of doing that correctly for you two yet I am all of a sudden capable of doing it to match what you want me to say?

Go talk with LQ and work together. This amount of dissonance between the two of you is pretty bad while agreeing on most of your reads.

This is a blatant misrep. My read on Infinity has absolutely NOTHING to do with you at all.

Who do you scumread GL?

I haven't finished catching up yet, but Infinity is scumread number 1, then ZZZX. I think Alisae/LaLight are my strongest townreads

Awesome that makes sense with flipless VCA. It isn't how I see it but it is at least a possible world. Infinity and ZZX being on the same wagon should give you pause though.

Gotta go!

Why is it ok for GL to have Infinity and ZZZX as Scum reads but not me? And don't you dare give me that bull shit about vote counts.

@LQ

- Why unvote Infinity?

MathBlade

- Why switch to LQ?

I am glad you are asking this rather than just assuming I am doing it for reasons that I am not doing it for like MathBlade is doing.

I unvoted Infinity because I felt he was playing to his Town meta that I remember from this game: viewtopic.php?p=8198973&user_select%5B% ... 7#p8198973

I also like you asking about why MathBlade voted for me, because as far as I can see, he voted me without providing a case on me.

Because I scumread both and we need to consolidate.

If LQ had stuck with Infinity to L-1 it would have given me pause.

However LQ didn't and then never spoke about Infinity. LQ was trying to placate me.

You know what? Fuck you for assuming you know what I am doing. You don't and your warped sense of how to play this game is so fucking inaccurate its not even funny.

I don't like how MB is basically saying nothing happens during late game, which is complete BS.

Fine

--

But not Townie, right?

How are you going to Scum read me if I am thinking on a higher level than you and you don't even understand the arguments I am making? You could have figured this out very easily yourself simply by checking how many pages there were in this game at the EOD1. And I already explained why I didn't try and quicken the pace of this game in the very posts you quoted, namely, that I was busy with other games at the time. Try and keep up please.

Also Fine

--

Also, but not Townie, right?

So GL and I are the Scum team simply because we Town read each other? I can honestly say I have no idea why you were nominated for Rising Star with this kind of shit.

Why does the Town case have to come later?

LMAAAO you two seem to have this unique synergy together that makes it seem like you're on sync, and you're pushing the same things together. You push NM while the other pushes outside of it. I just think you're a team just by play, not by you two townreading each other lmao.

Town case comes later because I'm working on it later and I'm busy now and I wrote that post when I woke up.

--

So we have synergy. I don't see why just because we pushed different things that that means we have to be teamed here... I don't get this one. I mean I get it. You are saying we are working too much in tandem. Its just a vapid argument that you could apply to a lot of "associations" in games.

Actually, he is royally fucking up the game or he is Scum.

Voting scum is fucking up the game?
Wowie LQ, I didn't know that.

--

Is this an argument, or is this just a dumb excuse to push for my lynch?

I am still feeling out GL and seeing how his current content is, which looks fine to me. Why do I have to do something with it immediately? Like do you expect me to instantly vote for GL now that I am reevaluating him or something?

DUDE! That was towards GL not you. I'm just not seeing you do anything with it while you claim to feel him out.

--

This is a blatant contradiction. Its like you are not even trying to make sense.

VOTE: Alisae

I am sorry Alisae, but if you are Town here and have such a strong Scum read on me, it shows you have no idea how to read me at all. I am going to be pissed if I am lynched. And you still never answered why I can't Town read Infinity on page 1, but you can read GL and my self as the Scum team on Page fucking 2.

Yes I did! Your inf read is baseless and had nothing to go off of, and even if it did it's a complete reach. You just simply cannot get that relaxed tone of not having to worry about being pushed on page 1. You just can't. As for page 2, you hopped on Dupin for something that was really easy to push.

--

So in no way, no matter what I do, my read on Infinity is bad. OK then. Well, I am turning the corner on my Infinity read if you've been paying attention. I currently have them as Slight Town (which is less than Town Lean for me).

Based on what do you think duppin is not only Town but that it required 2 Scum on his lynch? I swear the shortsightedness of some people is ridiculous.

Scum!LQ here loudly dismisses me.
pedit: You're loudly dismissing Math's read and trying to make them think that what they're saying doesn't matter.

MathBlade is just completely off or what he said about himself earlier (that the only time he loses as Scum is when HE messes up) is True.

For you, you just haven't even evaluated me. All you keep doing is saying I am Scum and no matter what I do, I will always be Scum to you. You didn't like that I reevaluated GL, you don't like that I am reevaluating Infinity and I generally can do nothing right in your eyes. This kind of confbias is getting to the point where I think you are just locked into me because you are a shitty Scum player.

If you're saying something is doable by the other alignment it means you yourself are not as sure of it either way.

It is okay to townread LaLight. Give yourself permission.

Ok let me expand on this. The sentiment in 586 is one I've felt before as town. I hate it when people get frustrated and give up instead of trying to work with me. So naturally I'm going have some doubts when I see that. But I can definitely see that from scum too who's pretending to be cooperative. Scum!lalight just dropped a whole case on zzzx, presumably to avoid the argument. I think lalight would at least want to keep open the option of getting zzzx on his side.

I also like that he was paying attention to the deadline, but it's a relatively easy thing to fake all things considered. You just have to stop for a sec and think what town would do in that case

I just think that all of this is small compared to lalight just not trying to sort people.

PEdit: ok I'll check that out LQ

You realize me stopping and thinking about town would do in those cases has me pointing to LQ and you right?

LQ's entire point of why you both are Town is that I am incapable of doing that correctly for you two yet I am all of a sudden capable of doing it to match what you want me to say?

Go talk with LQ and work together. This amount of dissonance between the two of you is pretty bad while agreeing on most of your reads.

This is a blatant misrep. My read on Infinity has absolutely NOTHING to do with you at all.

That is not what I am saying.
Your main point is that I am incapable of seeing the world like you do. Mainly how you think Town would act.
Infinity is saying I can.
I am pointing out the discrepancy.

This level of discrepancy should not exist when you agree on reads in name but in reasoning you are conflicting.

Great so that means that I am Scum and Infinity is Town then? Sorry I'm a little slow, but I thought for sure you said what was said in the bold.

Here's what it looked like to me:

You don't specify what "that" is. I need clarification on that because what I think it means is that Infinity and I see that doing flipless YOUR way is not the best way. For the second part of that sentence, it just doesn't make any sense. I don't WANT you to say anything. I think you are off in the way you approach flipless games. There is also the matter of more words needed to describe what "it" is. If by it you mean you are saying I think you are capable of playing the game the same way as myself and Infinity, then LOL, I am not making that argument at all. I think you have your twisted way of doing things and that doesn't mean that you "would" play differently if you were Town. Which brings me to the point of why would you assume I am assuming what you would do as Town considering the previous argument we had about me saying "You wouldn't do X as Town". It makes no sense because you are assuming I know you are Town when I don't know you are Town. When you started playing, I thought you had this really fresh idea, but as it turns out, its a load of horse shit.

If you're saying something is doable by the other alignment it means you yourself are not as sure of it either way.

It is okay to townread LaLight. Give yourself permission.

Ok let me expand on this. The sentiment in 586 is one I've felt before as town. I hate it when people get frustrated and give up instead of trying to work with me. So naturally I'm going have some doubts when I see that. But I can definitely see that from scum too who's pretending to be cooperative. Scum!lalight just dropped a whole case on zzzx, presumably to avoid the argument. I think lalight would at least want to keep open the option of getting zzzx on his side.

I also like that he was paying attention to the deadline, but it's a relatively easy thing to fake all things considered. You just have to stop for a sec and think what town would do in that case

I just think that all of this is small compared to lalight just not trying to sort people.

PEdit: ok I'll check that out LQ

You realize me stopping and thinking about town would do in those cases has me pointing to LQ and you right?

LQ's entire point of why you both are Town is that I am incapable of doing that correctly for you two yet I am all of a sudden capable of doing it to match what you want me to say?

Go talk with LQ and work together. This amount of dissonance between the two of you is pretty bad while agreeing on most of your reads.

This is a blatant misrep. My read on Infinity has absolutely NOTHING to do with you at all.

That is not what I am saying.
Your main point is that I am incapable of seeing the world like you do. Mainly how you think Town would act.
Infinity is saying I can.
I am pointing out the discrepancy.

This level of discrepancy should not exist when you agree on reads in name but in reasoning you are conflicting.

Great so that means that I am Scum and Infinity is Town then? Sorry I'm a little slow, but I thought for sure you said what was said in the bold.

Here's what it looked like to me:

You don't specify what "that" is. I need clarification on that because what I think it means is that Infinity and I see that doing flipless YOUR way is not the best way. For the second part of that sentence, it just doesn't make any sense. I don't WANT you to say anything. I think you are off in the way you approach flipless games. There is also the matter of more words needed to describe what "it" is. If by it you mean you are saying I think you are capable of playing the game the same way as myself and Infinity, then LOL, I am not making that argument at all. I think you have your twisted way of doing things and that doesn't mean that you "would" play differently if you were Town. Which brings me to the point of why would you assume I am assuming what you would do as Town considering the previous argument we had about me saying "You wouldn't do X as Town". It makes no sense because you are assuming I know you are Town when I don't know you are Town. When you started playing, I thought you had this really fresh idea, but as it turns out, its a load of horse shit.

The bolded makes you both scum grasping at straws. After rereading after a night of sleep I STILL don't understand this paragraph so I am going to simplify my point.

Say you thought I couldn't climb a tree and that makes me scum.
Infinity says that I can climb a tree.

You guys have fundamental "differences" like these where you both say contradictory points yet reach the same conclusion yet don't attack each other for it.

Infinity and Alisae both say I am a capable player.
You can either agree with them and say I am capable and start addressing my points and quit attacking me as a player because I am so obviously Town the only thing that would make me lynchable is the mod saying so and then everyone would scream bastard. I am that obvTown.
OR
You can think they are both scum together trying to buddy me. Which means that your reads on other players are false.
OR you can think one is scum and one is town. In that case work with your townread to fix their bad logic.

You can't "have your cake that I suck" and then not work with infinity on reads.

So you are saying that because myself and Infinity disagree on you means we are Scum... That doesn't makes sense, because from what I know, Scum tend to agree on things like that more often than disagreeing because its a passive way to boost moral. If Your ObvTown, how can you be so very wrong about me and possibly Infinity as well? The sole fact that you are wrong on me in your self described air lock case tells me you could very well be Scum here.

Mathblade being wrong on a tunnel doesn't make them scum

Trust me.

So he could just be bad Town? You know this from experience?

Yes. Mathblade tunnels basically every game and they are right sometimes and wrong quite a bit.

If that's the case, he really needs to get off his high horse.

Yes. Mathblade tunnels basically every game and they are right sometimes and wrong quite a bit.

If that's the case, he really needs to get off his high horse.

Now that you mention it, MathBlade didn't say he had a good Town game, but a good Scum game. I take solace in knowing that he gets away with poor play as Scum because he is a shit Town player.

They think they know better since they've played flipless a lot.

Which is fair, but it doesn't mean their reads are right.

But being wrong on a tunnel is not a scumtell anyway imo.

Correction: Its not ALWAYS a Scum tell. Players that tunnel and usually shitty players in general.

Mathblade is actually legitimately good as scum though.

All that's necessary for a good Scum game is a shitty Town game and the ability to manipulate people. It just means they are actually not that great of a player because they can't play well as both alignments.

Flipless mafia isn't about who you scumread. It's about town blocks. Granted you lynch your scumreads sure. But it's about finding three town and being damn sure about it and then nuking everyone else NOT in that town block.

So LQ -- Who do you TOWN read?

Infinity, LaLight, GL.

What is my point here? My point is that my read on Infinity is a lot more nuanced than what MB is giving me credit for. MB is going to argue that my read on Infinity is indication that we are associated together. The fact of the matter is that I have not voted Infinity once (just for the hammer), not even twice, but actually 3 separate occasions I have voted for Infinity and I was even the one the mod credited for hammering Infinity.

Awesome. Thanks for correcting me. I missed those as they weren't in the VCs. Still think you're scum you're just expert scum. And you're pissed at me for scumreading you. Based on your opening and asking me why I was asking questions instead of just answering them makes you scum.

[MathBlade]

Off topic:

I just got a job! *Hooray Mathy dance*

Bad news expect my posting to go way down.

[MathBlade]

VOTE: MathBlade

He is trying to subtly manipulate a lynch on me. I am pretty confident he is Scum at this point.

First off all i am a They. I am gender fluid. Some days I am male and others I am different. Born female. Would appreciate not seeing he a ton.

Secondly I have said you are scum since I replaced in. If I am scum (which I am not) explain how I am being subtle? Pretty sure MathBlade had a Blade in it because I am always seen.

Pedit:

Too little resistance to have been on scum.

[MathBlade]

And the reason that MB is so strong with his POV that both Scum are still left in the game is that it makes it very easy for him to line up lynches. No where does MB even consider that we have already lynched a Mafia member. MB has been disingenuous in his representative "objective" facts to fulfill and agenda where he can keep providing "evidence" that certain players are Scum. I hope the players that are left in LyLo if I am dead can see through his guise.

I mean. This is the only reason why I don't have him as conf town. I found it weird. But not weird enough to scum read him. Do you think that it can't come from a town pov?

They please

[MathBlade]

Votecount! (1.5)

Not_Mafia (5) - ZZZX, LicketyQuickety, LaLight, duppin, momo
momo (1) - moonbird
LaLight (1) - Infinity 324
Infinity 324 (1) - Not_Mafia

Not Voting - GuiltyLion

With

9

votes,

5

to lynch

The deadline is in (expired on 2017-05-10 22:09:40).

VC 2.2

duppin (2) - GuiltyLion, momo, LicketyQuickety, moonbird, ZZZX
LaLight (1) - Infinity 324
ZZZX (2) - LaLight

Not Voting: duppin

With

8

votes,

5

to lynch

There is no such world where a LaLight scum team exists based on this lynches. And LaLight infinity is ridiculous too.

Why?

When I get home I will search my ISO and quote the post.

[MathBlade]

VOTE: MathBlade

He is trying to subtly manipulate a lynch on me. I am pretty confident he is Scum at this point.

How do you think that works in my narrative of MathBlade read?

Assuming I am town in your POV how can his actions be explained as scrum driven? I don't get why he would defend me personally as scum. It feels weird and unneeded in a sense

The fact that he defends someone who is not widely Town read is evidence that he seeks to Town read people who are not a threat to himself.

I always defend my townreads even if someone fucks up their role so bad it almost guilties themselves (Narna Undertale) I don't do what is popular I do what I feel is right. Right or wrong end of the day I know where I need to improve.

[MathBlade]

Nice to see you're taking my arguments and using them though from my associations.

I specifically said look at townreads for this. You can't say associations bad then say I am scum for using them. *shakes head* Either you agree with associations and in that case realize that it points to you or your point is bad.

Pedit:

White knighted has different meanings to people -- You mean defended Town on their way to a mislynch as scum?

[MathBlade]

They do. They have played with scum me twice. Once in Gistou. Once in the game I am going to source. They aren't referring to that meta because it is different. Replaced in late. I know how to be good scum. LQ even fucking said so. However he knows it is different than here.

[MathBlade]

viewtopic.php?f=23&t=68191

Akame -- Last replacement snowballed everyone. Spent the entire game pretty much defending Titus to have her pocketed and was so sad when a Town hammer interrupted my wall post of Titus town.

[MathBlade]

viewtopic.php?f=56&t=67413

Gistou defended KuroiXHF

[MathBlade]

Under normal circumstances, it can come from Town, but in order for that to happen, you would have to ignore the narrative that MB represents his subjective way of solving the game as objective. That is MB's ultimate dichotomy that doesn't line up with what he is actually doing. Its disingenuous and shows either a clear lack of contextual evidence at best and a manipulative nature regarding an agenda at worst.

I get what you are meaning but I still find it a more... stance kind of thing if you get me


Do you have any experience with Math? It's hard reading

them

(I had to re-read this to correct it) if I don't know how they usually play

MB admits that he is representing an objective measure to read people. I have said repeatedly that reading people individually of Scummy behavior is a more accurate means to read people based on the fact that associations between players is erroneous when we don't have flips. And even in the case that we would have flips, I have seen so many games where associations were used incorrectly that its not even worth it to try and read people that way. If you think I am Town you literally cannot think that MB's way of solving the game is valid, period.

And in a game without flips that just doesn't work.

Otherwise you end up in a popularity contest.

There IS objective data after each lynch.

You just have to be open to using it.

Teams get narrowed narratives get smaller. Reasons have to be consistent forward and backward.

[MathBlade]

You mean you have no record of how every game I have in I have snowballed you specifically. Seriously if I was scum I would do the things that freaking worked. This site unless given something boned you should be able to scum wipe unless you fuck up. So if I was scum the question is would you seriously be scum reading me? And we all know the answer to that is no.

[MathBlade]

Sorry I don't have video of F2F games or I would prove it.

[MathBlade]

You mean you have no record of how every game I have in I have snowballed you specifically. Seriously if I was scum I would do the things that freaking worked. This site unless given something boned you should be able to scum wipe unless you fuck up. So if I was scum the question is would you seriously be scum reading me? And we all know the answer to that is no.

This is a really shitty argument. I've seen RadiantCowbells argue the same thing and I have them blacklisted and they are the one and only person I have blacklisted. You sure you want to go down this road?

I don't want to be on anyone's blacklist. Why do you feel this is blacklistable? You all are very nice people.

[MathBlade]

The best Scum players don't have to lie.

This is gold regardless of LQ's alignment.

Agreed.

[MathBlade]

LQ if you scum read Math the most logical vote right now would be LaLight, No other living player has the same chance to be his "partner".

As for myself I am just voting LaLight cus hes scummy as Fuck

Their*

Break it down please.

Explain how I could be scum with LaLight with the votes as they are for the first three days.

In other words explain what happened. I find if you have to stretch it usually isn't right but if you think I am scum floor is yours to make a case beginning to end how are me and LaLight scum. I am not scum but this helps me see how you think and makes you learn about how I play flipless anyway. So break it down. Explain how the mislynches happened if I and LaLight are scum.

[MathBlade]

1284 is a lie. Infinity has been a scumread since I replaced in.

I am tired going to bed.

*Yawns*

[MathBlade]

I am calm for a reason.

Right now we have 6 alive. Assume I am mislynched game goes on with 5 alive.
Then that is Alisae ZZZX GL LQ LaLight. LQ gets lynched. Because when the game continues on still that would happen. Only team that loses is Alisae + ZZZX there, With LQ/Infinity game just ends. LQ/GL game goes on.

If it is Alisae+ZZZX they have played a damn near flawless game and if they can manage to mislynch me after all this. They deserve the W.

However if LQ is lynched and game continues that means one scum in Alisae/ZZX/LaLight/GL and two lynches to figure it out. First should be GL then if game still goes on whichever it is of Alisae/ZZX/LaLight the last two players have the tools I mentioned to find the last scum.

I am not worried because I finally get to teach flipless and it makes me escatic.

[MathBlade]

MathBlade is more calm and thorough in reads, LQ is flammable af and does AtE much. At least I feel this as AtE really.

tbh, this is a fairly bad justification to take a stance

Like, town!LQ and scum!LQ can do what their doing currently, and scum!Math can also be doing what he's doing.
UNVOTE:

At that point I would be tempted to re-evaluate LaLight since that Russian conversation spooks me. It doesn't feel natural.

[MathBlade]

Reads like textbook scum trying to break up two people who townread each other. LQ mentioned several Town tells and is now backing away from that. In contrast (as GL) mentioned I have not stopped townreading you or ZZZX however I just don't Town block you as that possibility remains viable. LQ attacking a former highly townread player Especially who Infinity tried to lynch is bad.

Unless you townread Infinity LQ doesn't push LaLight here unless LQ needs LaLight gone.

[MathBlade]

Seriously don't make me quote all the "Lalight is town" posts from LQ. Without a relative connecting event like a lynch or a post that prompted this switch there is no progression no anything.

[MathBlade]

Flipless mafia isn't about who you scumread. It's about town blocks. Granted you lynch your scumreads sure. But it's about finding three town and being damn sure about it and then nuking everyone else NOT in that town block.

So LQ -- Who do you TOWN read?

Infinity, LaLight, GL.

I plan on doing a fuller response to what everyone else posted later because busy, but for I stated why I'm reconsidering in 1019.
You even quoted that post.

So what happened to that Town case on LaLight you promised us, Alisae?

This post happened and it made me raise an eyebrow because it sounded really fake.

One thing caught my eye: MathBlade, do you understand mafia doesn't kill inthis game? It's nightless.

How on earth is that a Scummy post Alisae?

Also, why didn't you ask LaLight anything about that comment? you were Town reading them. Why jump straight to them being Scum instead of trying to figure out why LaLight might have said that?

I did!
LaLight gave me this and left it at that.

And yes by LYLO/MYLO the game is pretty much over.

Either town has the game solved or they don't.
MyLO is a guaranteed no lynch.
Scum kill.
Then LyLO.
Step before that is maneuvering before LyLO.

It is a matter of planning out steps.
By the time endgame roles around it is one final case as to why you should win.
So yes endgame should have very little happening. If it has a lot either scum have had a lot of mislynches or someone is trying to change the gamestate when there is no reason to.

Was asking because of this

But that doesn't at all make LaLight Scum. How do you jump from LaLight trying to clarify something to him being Scum?

I keep looking at LaLights ISO to see if I can see what they are seeing by Scum reading them. I am just no seeing it I guess. He seems to be Town telling all over the fucking place, and not the easily faked stuff either.

So you abandon your townread on LaLight due to lack of content. Even though there would always be a lack of content. You ignore the Town tells you found before because lack of content. Instead of going after one of the other people you don't townread you go after one you do.

This makes a LOT of sense. /sarcasm

[MathBlade]

I am actually saying you're scum pushing town LaLight towards a lynch.

I only consider suboptimal play when all optimal plays are removed. If you and GL are lynched and game is still going then scum played suboptimally.

[MathBlade]

It is like scum CCing a town PR at L-1 on day one.

You still lynch the town pR then lynch the scumfuck that CC'd.

[MathBlade]

I am actually saying you're scum pushing town LaLight towards a lynch.

I only consider suboptimal play when all optimal plays are removed. If you and GL are lynched and game is still going then scum played suboptimally.

K. Why is GL Scum?

It is like scum CCing a town PR at L-1 on day one.

You still lynch the town pR then lynch the scumfuck that CC'd.

Actually its nothing like that at all.

I townread everyone but you right now so..if you mean why I would lynch GuiltyLion if the game continues because then you and infinity can't be the team so you+GL is next most logical team.

BoP on you to say how it isn't.

[MathBlade]

I have to mostly prodge right now but I'm feeling good about ZZZX and bad about how MB is trying to conftown LaLight. If people are worried about a GL/LQ team or a MB/LL team, I suggest we lynch alternately, something like LQ->MB->GL->LL

You mean like I said if I was mislynched? Awesome. I would prefer LQ going first too.

[MathBlade]

Vla real life stuff for 24 h

Ditto

[MathBlade]

I think its important to note that MB hasn't made a single remark on how I am individually Scummy.

Why?

Because it shows all they has on me is a shitty association that you can't prove one way or another and yet they represent it as fact.

EBWOP

I just got done driving since literally 9 this morning for five hours of gaming then another few back. I am exhausted.

Furthermore I don't have to prove you're scum in the way you want it to happen. All I have to do is show you are scum.

What you are doing is saying math isn't showing 1+3=4 but is instead showing 2+2 is 4. You're attacking the playstyle here.

[MathBlade]

Gonna be afk for D&D tonight.

[MathBlade]

@MOD

is the VC reset or nah?


Yeah, this is our last day we can go without a lynch or else rocks fall everyone dies.

??

Don't we get like a day 5? Day 6?

It is still day 4?

@mod

Please clarify how many days left til rocks fall everyone dies.

[MathBlade]

Infinity 324 was lynched.

Now it is Day 4.

Deadline is in (expired on 2017-05-28 15:59:50).

Right?

It is day 4?

So day 6 rocks fall everyone dies?

[MathBlade]

That being said I hate voting for a slot not here to play but I think this is the only scum.

VOTE: LQ

[MathBlade]

I am really sorry for the absense, the real life goes all-shit on me.

I believe MathBlade over LQ mostly because of the tone of the posts. MathBlade is more calm and thorough in reads, LQ is flammable af and does AtE much. At least I feel this as AtE really.

and then as for this answer as to why LL believes MB over LQ, I just don't see it. I thought LQ was consistently making good points in the second 1v1 and nothing about MB's tone couldn't have been faked by scum

Who do you scumread and townread right now?