Micro 719: For Us [Endgame]

[NoticeMeSenpai]

JaeReed, I lesbians you!
<3



...Wait.


That doesn't quite sound right......

[NoticeMeSenpai]

...Butyeah. It's at this point we should probably claim this.
We're publicly known to be The Power of Love, but that's not all.

We are bulletproof

. The power of love is intangible and thus can't be killed more or less. Any protective PRs should use their protections elsewhere because protecting us would be a waste.

[NoticeMeSenpai]

The following voting restriction is being imposed on everyone for Day 1: Players may not UNVOTE: .

For clearification, this is a voting restriction.[/color]

Mod:

Does this mean no unvoting, or no changing of voting?

For instance, could we go VOTE: Alisae, and then change it to VOTE: nancy (just without unvoting first)...
...Or are we locked into our vote the moment we cast it?

[NoticeMeSenpai]

Boo.

No hiss?

Vote: Burning Hatred

.

(I actually love this restriction it's right up my alley. <3)

[NoticeMeSenpai]

(I actually love this restriction it's right up my alley. <3)

(Not as much as I love Jae though. <3)

[NoticeMeSenpai]

Why hiss when I can kiss

Because you're Burning with Hatred of course. <3

[NoticeMeSenpai]

GiF, thoughts about the true love nomination thing?

I'm not GIF but my impression is that it is most likely a boon not a nerf.
As a result it's PROBABLY something we want on town.
Given to scum it'd given them an edge we don't want them to have; given to town it'd do...something.
Change our roles slightly. Strengthen them further. Give us a random power which is vaguely related but not directly related. The like.

Basically I think that it's something which scum will benefit a lot from but which town will benefit who the heck knows how much from.

[NoticeMeSenpai]

MARRIAGE COUNT 1 . 1 Not Voting - 9 ( Everyone ) If nothing is changed, no one will discover true love Deadline is in (expired on 2017-06-25 21:40:00)

Mod:

Are we allowed to self-vote on this, or are we forbidden from that level of masturbation?

[NoticeMeSenpai]

My role is troll as f so the chance is, so is this mechanic.

Would you care to elaborate on how you feel your role is trolling?

Our role very much did not feel like a troll.

[NoticeMeSenpai]

(From a purely flavor perspective though I have to admit I kinda sorta want us to get it. After all. The power of love meeting true love? It certainly worked in Princess Bride!)

[NoticeMeSenpai]

Yeah you can do that.

I hope you realize what you're in for.

Nominate: NoticeMeSenpai

.

[NoticeMeSenpai]

No, it's just day 1. Hmm.

I quite literally do think that mechanic is a match made in heaven for our role though.

Like.

I'm sure Alisae has an effect for each player getting it.

But.

We're literally (very publicly) the power of love.
And the mechanic is true love.
And it's a one-day mechanic only.

While there would undoubtedly be an effect for each different player getting it.
I really think it was DESIGNED so that we'd get it. That, for better or for worse (and I think better), we were meant to essentially be the "default" choice that's 'supposed' to be selected, more or less.

[NoticeMeSenpai]

VOTE: Burning Hatred

[NoticeMeSenpai]

Why claim right away and not later in the day there's no need to do it right away

Why would we wait?
Our flavor was made public at gamestart.
Claiming the additional relevant detail was also important so we did so immediately.
Also, there's always the risk of lolwagon-->lolhammer-->no chance to claim it later, so why would we risk the information not being given?

B) You could've waited to see if you were scummy or not because if others viewed you as scummy no need to out yourself and save the other "protective" roles

Our flavor is public.
While that doesn't, by itself, confirm us as town (though there's quite the real possibility that true love + power of love = public conftown, i.e., we become an IC; Jae mentioned this as a possibility referencing some game Alisae was a player in which Creature had our role)...it does tend to bias people towards that direction. For us to

not

be seen as town, we'd basically have to actively be trying to be scummy and even then that still might not work.

Basically there's a very big bias towards us being town from the get-go. So there's a very big bias towards protective PRs with a lack of better ideas for targets deciding that we're a good protection. Also this is a hydra of JAEREED. And MASTINA. As town. JaeReed is obvtown once they get to posting; I am not AS obvtown but I still have my moments especially in a playerlist filled to the brim with players who know how I work.

JaeReed's obvtown + my obvtown + public role = very appealing nightkill = very appealing protection.
But we wanted it known that spending a protection on us would be a waste because that's something which we felt overall was more important to be known. (I talked it over with Jae and we weighed the pros and cons for a bit and ultimately we decided that between the public flavor and our given playstyles and our given role, that the claim would do more good than harm. We lose scum trying to nightkill us. We gain ability to, saaaaaaay, become absolute invulnerable conftown that the scum can do nothing about.)

[NoticeMeSenpai]

morph the cat
Lovebirds
Clumsy Phoenix
Imperium
Devils Gear
Burning Hatred
Scott and Ramona
Sword of Damocles

VOTE: Sword of Damocles.

(Disclaimer: I have not synched with Jae. I made the above without even checking our PT or our IM logs because technically I shouldn't even be online right now; I should be leaving for school, but there was a game where I was waiting for a specific objective to be completed and so I decided to post on here until said objective was completed, so. This is subject to change.)

[NoticeMeSenpai]

Uhhh... Yet it's not scummy for Burning Hatred to want no one to have it?

~Jae

[NoticeMeSenpai]

Uhhh... Yet it's not scummy for Burning Hatred to want no one to have it?

~Jae

Here let me give you a little brainstorming

Let's say you're me.
You are town and suggested that no one gets the true love.
Why would you do that?

This is a question that goes nowhere. I hope you realize this. You're interjecting for the sake of interjecting and that frankly annoys me. This is about Chickadee and her post. Why do you feel the need to interject here?

~Jae

[NoticeMeSenpai]

Also, if we have a cop or the like, would it be a good idea to check the Bulletproof hydra? If we can clear them, that'd be a bulletproof IC day 2.

I am about 80% certain that if we get the true love mechanic we'll be made into an Innocent Child.
In Memory had Creature as public flavour, and my role there gave people boosts when I neighbored with them. When I neighbored with Creature's public flavour it made him an Innocent Child.
In Memory was modded by RC, and both FA and Alisae played in it.
Town can basically cop us by giving us the true love mechanic, imo.

~Jae

[NoticeMeSenpai]

Uhhh... Yet it's not scummy for Burning Hatred to want no one to have it?

~Jae

EWWWWW out of the whole thread

this

is your first worry?
VOTE: Notice me senpai
bye bye

Yup, most everything else was noise to me. Chickadee mentioned wanting to take True Love as being scummy because it's a boost for anyone who has it, yet townread Burning Hatred who was voting for No one to have it. Pointing out to her that her logic is flawed and lazy is something I felt could help me get a read on her through her response, and also help me get into the game. Do you disagree with my assessment of her post?
Why am I the head that worried you most at the time of 106? I hadn't posted yet at that point.
I don't like how you're so focused on our role and how you feel we should play it. A bulletproof IC is one of the strongest roles to have around. Especially so for the later stages of the game. Given that, there's definitely scum motivation present in trying to discredit and push on us now to attempt to stop us from achieving that status.

~Jae

[NoticeMeSenpai]

Interject what?
What you think is irrelevant to what she thinks.
If you fear that she might steal your idea, then "let me hear what she says first" will suffice.
It only interjects your questioning if you make it so.

I'm questioning your motive for making that about you when it wasn't about you.
It felt entirely unnecessary.
If you wanted my read on you and that was separate to my post about her, then I'm sorry for misreading your intentions. You quoted that post so I assumed it was linked to my questioning her on her logic and trying to point out that it was flawed given her read on you.

As for my read on you, it's in a constant state of flux.
I can see both town and scum motivation in wanting to vote for no one. I think it's a really bad idea, personally, but to each their own.

[NoticeMeSenpai]

Uhhh... Yet it's not scummy for Burning Hatred to want no one to have it?

Yup, most everything else was noise to me. Chickadee mentioned wanting to take True Love as being scummy because it's a boost for anyone who has it, yet townread Burning Hatred who was voting for No one to have it. Pointing out to her that her logic is flawed and lazy is something I felt could help me get a read on her through her response, and also help me get into the game. Do you disagree with my assessment of her post?
Why am I the head that worried you most at the time of 106? I hadn't posted yet at that point.
I don't like how you're so focused on our role and how you feel we should play it. A bulletproof IC is one of the strongest roles to have around. Especially so for the later stages of the game. Given that, there's definitely scum motivation present in trying to discredit and push on us now to attempt to stop us from achieving that status.

~Jae

I don't really disagree with your assessment but out of all the things to comment on it felt like you were irked that burning was not getting picked on over you I said I was worried about you because I've played with you many times before and I know you're a good player so that's what worries me. I don't really care if you're not gonna like me focusing on your role I see a weakpoint with dumb logic and I am going to keep pushing it

you have clear contradictions that I have pointed out that you have yet to address

why is it scum motivation and me not just finding posts scummy can

Fucking hit the enter button too soon,
Anyway I was saying can I not find your posts scummy as town
~Maria

Not sure I buy that was genuinely your read of the situation, but okay.
I see no contradictions, and as such I'm not sure what you're talking about with the bolded, can you elaborate? Just quote the parts of the post you feel I should have addressed that I haven't, if you feel like you already presented it as clearly as you can.
Why does it worry you that I'm a good player? I'm actually of the opposite opinion, but regardless, are you talking town or scum here? Do you think it not possible that you just don't understand fully what is actually ideal play for our role, given what you've known of myself and mastina to date and how we play?
I feel like there's scum motivation in wanting to get rid of the potentially conftown bulletproof if scum doesn't have a strongman to hit us with. Especially so given you believe that both myself and mastina are good players. Is there potential for you as town to find our posts scummy? Maybe? I can't say I'm an expert on following your mindset. I feel like you're more focused on trying to find something wrong with us rather than trying to genuinely read us.

[NoticeMeSenpai]

Yeah I don't buy the Bulletproof IC thing.

I realize its Page 7 but I don't care for whichever-part-of-NMS was all noncommittal with their reads here.

viewtopic.php?p=8578631#p8578631
viewtopic.php?p=8560054#p8560054

You should buy it.

I don't care for forcing a read when I'm unsure on a slot.

[NoticeMeSenpai]

@morph I appreciate your opinion and concerns, but feel as though you're jumping the gun a bit. I'll ask you to revisit at a later date when it becomes relevant for voting purposes. <3

@Burning Hatred ok I have to ask - has GiF really been posting?

[NoticeMeSenpai]

I am about 80% certain that if we get the true love mechanic we'll be made into an Innocent Child.
In Memory had Creature as public flavour, and my role there gave people boosts when I neighbored with them. When I neighbored with Creature's public flavour it made him an Innocent Child.
In Memory was modded by RC, and both FA and Alisae played in it.

I think your confidence level is too high unless you're not showing us part of your process. I find that moderators actively try to avoid repeating the same tricks they've used in the past; do you disagree or is it something that all three of them loved so much that they jammed it into Alisae's game?

Alisae reused the fusion mechanic of RC's in an off-site game. Including the public flavour to IC part. I could see him reusing it here given that.

[NoticeMeSenpai]

Uhhh... Yet it's not scummy for Burning Hatred to want no one to have it?

~Jae

I don't think so - he very obviously wasn't proposing a plan to skip on the goodies so I don't necessarily understand the angle you're taking here.

I feel like I answered this later, so this is a post to say if you're still unsure after reading my back and forth with Maria, let me know.

[NoticeMeSenpai]

whichever-part-of-NMS was all noncommittal with their reads here.

I think Jae believes that Hatred's vote for No One is a permanent one.
I don't understand why but I don't think misunderstanding an approach means anything for their alignment.

I do believe that to be the case, yes.
Town repeatedly fear voted for no resolution in civilization mafia because they were scared of what scum could do with the resolutions. If Burning is town here I'd imagine the vote for no one to be in much the same vein.
The scum motive I thought was possible was that he didn't want town to have a boon. In retrospect I think that's probably silly reasoning, as he could campaign for a buddy or just hold off without going against the grain, so to speak.

[NoticeMeSenpai]

Nominate: No One

- Scott

LUV don't do this again please. Town was actually crippled in civilization mafia from the none pushes.

[NoticeMeSenpai]

I'd like you to retread it if you don't mind.

Why was Chickadee's logic flawed? Why did you bring Burning Hatred up as a rebuttal to that flawed logic?

I know what I'm

expecting

your answers to be but your approach seems abstract if my expectations are correct.

Chickadee expressed that it was selfish and scummy to self nom for true love considering it was a boon for town and she seemed to feel it should be something discussed and come to a consensus on with more information.

Burning didn't self nom, but he actually nominated no one, which I feel given chicks reasons for why self nomming was scummy should follow that was too (being denying town a chance to really discuss based on more AI information).

Chick expressed a town lean on burning, so I wanted to point out to her that burnings vote for no one and everyone self nomming are pretty much the same. I probably didn't manage to express myself well given all the confusion it seems to have caused.

FWIW I don't think self nomming or voting for no one is scummy.

[NoticeMeSenpai]

It's kind of sad that it's 11:30pm and I'm hopefully hovering around on my phone in bed hoping that Nacho has more questions for me.

This is what happens when mastina has no time to bounce things around with me. I get needy and leech off someone else's partner for my attempts to get a feel for my reads. =P

[NoticeMeSenpai]

It's kind of sad that it's 11:30pm and I'm hopefully hovering around on my phone in bed hoping that Nacho has more questions for me.

This is what happens when mastina has no time to bounce things around with me. I get needy and leech off someone else's partner for my attempts to get a feel for my reads. =P

Where did you end up on Scott and Ramona?
What do you think of morph's readslist other than the very obvious fuckup of not putting us on top?

I like Ramona's posts for town, and I think given what I know of Scott's meta, his posting so far is null/maybe townish, though I'm aware for Scott that it would maybe be easy to fake his uncaring and loose town meta.
So overall the hydra for me is town, but mastina seemed to have a fairly heavy scum read on them when she was posting. I'd assume this was from the lack of content, though.
I liked the nuance in Chick's read on Burning when she explained it in response to me, and then even moreso when she elaborated further from your poking.

As for morph's read list, I'm not a fan of Lovebirds being so high with no stated reason, but I think I did like Andrius' post before Maria began to focus on what I feel were irrelevant things. I find the Maria tends to be more nitpicky as scum, and fast and loose as town. It's hardly a smoking gun since I'm aware meta can change and I may be prone to omgus here. I don't like that Maria seemed to be afraid of our hydra. That said, I think she has town read me every time I've been scum so maybe I'm again being too harsh on her despite my opinion that I'm a stronger town than scum player.
I don't understand morph's reasons thing about you being a likely town read by the end of the day, but I guess that's probably an inside thing.
I kind of liked the honesty about leaving the reading of this hydra up to you if you're town because that was my first go to on reading Ari this game. Sorting you then sheeping your read, I mean. I do think morph may be underestimating my ability to show my alignment, though.

Um, as far as the reads list itself I think everything looks mostly fine, I can understand why someone who hasn't played with LUV before might scum read him here. Agree that the bit from clumsy seemed fine and that sword can stand to do a bit more.
As for my read on morph, I town read them but it's kinda for frivolous reasons I think. I like a lot of objectively NAI stuff (snarky retorts in places). I don't know if it's ultimately NAI or if I'm just not being able to pinpoint what about the posts give me good feelings though. I was hoping to bounce that with mastina but if you're around and want to check my work I can throw some quotes at you?

[NoticeMeSenpai]

Moved to my laptop, sorry was distracted by Speakeasy stuff.

[NoticeMeSenpai]

But townreading morph when cabd did nothing is a crime

Yeah, poor Cabd is terrified of this player list. Ima have to carry him.

I feel like there's a wariness to your answers, GiF.

I'm not sure what to make of that.

Page 6. Not my best.

Nacho these posts are the ones I remember as sticking out to me.

I liked the townbin thing from morph with the commentary but I'm really not sure why. I felt picking up on the wariness thing could be what I was unsure of with Burning Hatred's posts (but in general I think it's just that I have a really hard time reading older players on gut feels? Or I came to this conclusion anyways, whether it's right or not I'm not sure).

And I really liked the snark in 109 but I feel like that's probably not AI but I

really like it for town

and I can't shut off that side of my brain but I feel like I can't find anything AI about it logically.

[NoticeMeSenpai]

Are you familiar with ffery's play at all or is this just intuition at work?

I'm not sure if you're asking me here, but just in case: I have never even seen ffery play, I don't think, so this is all based on ~feels~ and I'm uncomfortable to say that.
I've seen cabd play before but I'm not confident in making comparison judgements there.

Jae, I fear I am fading away and fast.

I am staying up to talk morph with you and then I am passing out immediately after.

I really hope I made it in time, I'm so sorry. :/

[NoticeMeSenpai]

I'm uncomfortable to say that.

Why?

Without being able to state the logic of how I feel a certain way and why I'm reading someone a certain way, it's a lot harder for people to counter me if I'm reading something the wrong way or reading into NAI things as AI. Without being able to quantify why I feel a certain way, I can't even adequately explain it to my own hydra partner so that she can check my work.

Which is why I was hoping you'd ask for those quotes because I think at least by getting them out there I can maybe try to reason them out even with myself a little better (for instance I figured out why I liked the wariness post as I was going through trying again to explain why I liked it, and while it's not as eloquent as I'd like, it's something that I can put a reason to and I feel a bit better about it because of that). Then at least if I can't manage to put a reason to it maybe someone else can see what I think I'm seeing that might be able to put words to it and I'll go "oh, yes, this is what I was feeling and I think this is why I like it so much".

[NoticeMeSenpai]

{morph the cat, Burning Hatred, Imperium}
{Scott and Ramona}
{Sword of Damocles, Clumsy Phoenix}
{Devils Gear}
{Lovebirds}

This is probably my tiered list as of now. Devils is actually null, mainly because I can't remember what posts they've made at all (I should be less lazy and look it up but it's 1am so nah, not tonight).

I still feel as though Maria tunneled in on what she thought was the easiest thing to nitpick and push on, and I feel that's more likely to scum from scum!Maria than town!Maria. I felt in Andrius' later post that the bit on us was very posturey, though there's always the possibility he doesn't believe it as much as Maria did but wanted to back her up?

I didn't hate Ari's response to Imperium (actually, I quite liked it, I feel like he was relatively loose in his response), though I feel like smart is pushing on the easy thing as well and not paying attention at all to the gamesolving I've been attempting to achieve with someone I'm comfortable playing ball with. I probably want more from the Ari head of this hydra before I'll be comfortable with my read there. I'm not super worried about this hydra slipping under the radar if they're scum, but I'm mildly worried about them being mislynched if town.

Clumsy Phoenix I remember liking the one post of. I feel like a scum!CP here posts fluff only but there felt like an attempt to solve something in that post - I don't remember it quite clearly anymore but I think they're fine as a weaker confidence townread right now, pending more posting to sort.

Scott and Ramona I feel I've talked about.

Burning Hatred I'll admit is riding a lot on Nacho and morph reads. I don't *think* Burning is scum with either of those slots, though, and I feel like there should be something that makes me feel like having them up so high but I honestly can't remember if there was and so it makes me worry that it might just be purely sheeping the older players reads.

morph I talked about and for the most part I like that Nacho could place some level of "this might be why?" to the posts I quoted. I don't have the meta to have known the ffery specific parts of it, but Nacho managed to explain some in a way that works. The subtle paranoia over Burning Hatred was good combined with the final of getting a read on them. I think I liked with the paranoia too that she was uncertain and I didn't feel it was stated in order to push an agenda so much as to state a concern? Which I guess is covered when I say subtle, but it's worth noting I think.
109 is just pure gutfeels since I don't have ffery meta to work with, but it's nice to know that my gut is probably not misplaced there.

Imperium...is a very hopeful read. I think Nacho is town. I hope Nacho is town. I pray Nacho is town. I am terrified of getting steamrolled by scum!Nacho. I think his reads so far have been solid, I still disagree on Lovebirds but I'm hoping that either one of us will eventually turn around on that and we can hopefully be more in sync. I think if there's potential for anyone to be Imperium's partner right now it might be Lovebirds, but this is going off old newbie queue IC meta of Nacho where I was aware that he tried to have his reads much the same and just have his partner in town. I'm not sure if that's still applicable outside the newbie queue at all. Overall, though, I like the lines of questioning he's taken so far coupled with the conclusions for the most part, and am hopefully optimistic in my townread there.

[NoticeMeSenpai]

And as I get done typing I realize I have no idea if this is what you were looking for but it's already typed up so please wait until I pass out before pointing out that you were explaining something totally different!

Nono, that was perfect, thank you! <3
I haven't been able to touch base with mastina and you're a good point of reference for bouncing reads and reasonings off, I find.

[NoticeMeSenpai]

ok um... Sorry for the 3/4 page wall. I didn't realize it was getting that long.

I'm going to bed now.

[NoticeMeSenpai]

@Maria I definitely don't townread you on AtE and haven't done so since the Persona game. Especially so given how things went down in Pokemon when you replaced me.
I've also correctly townread you in a game more recent than dota maf. And correctly townread you in Pantheon maf, and correctly scumread you in that epicmafia game I couldn't replace into because Impoetic talked to me about. Two games out of five I haven't correctly read you, and one of those was because of crossover from what happened with your modded game I was also in.
As scum in the Persona game you nitpicked on things in order to attempt to discredit me with regards to the game we'd played prior, where I was a survivor. It was along the lines of "but you weren't actually town there" when I indeed had thrown my alignment out the window - as evidenced by the fact I claimed my survivor factional kill to be a 1-shot vig and softed/claimed my partner's double tracker results. What I mean by nitpicking is that you're not focusing on actually AI stuff in the game. You're choosing threads that aren't....going anywhere. And can't go anywhere, because fundamentally, they're NAI. You're focusing on a claim and a campaign for True Love rather than anything that I feel you could read me off of, and I think that's more likely to come from you as scum.
Our decision to claim was more from mastina, and if you think claiming her role is AI, you're wrong. She does it often. I was mildly against it but I trust that she knows what she's doing when she says it's better for any protectives to know to not bother.
Our decision to campaign for the mechanic was also more mastina than myself, but again, I support her decision. I know that she knows what she's doing. I also believe she has a different idea about what will happen should we get the mechanic, and I'm pretty sure it will just make us an IC, but even that I think I'm fine with given our role, because that's one clear you know you can trust and you don't have to get paranoid of. That's one person you can bounce ideas off and jam with while knowing we're not going to have an ulterior motive.

As scum, there is definitely motive for tunneling the one person you think might be able to read you.
You should know by now this is not how I approach your slot as scum - I largely ignore you and actually lean heavily towards defending-but-not-so-much-you-don't-get-lynched. If you're town, I need to see more from you than what I'm currently seeing in order to determine that.

[NoticeMeSenpai]

I still haven't been able to sync up with mastina. It's the last week of classes for her and she has stuff to get done for school. She should have some more free time after this week, I hope.

@GiF I think it was you that asked, but I answered in the above post about your question on the claim stuff.

Also, Maria, there's a chance giving true love to scum gives them a strongman or something. If you checked the link on what fusion did to roles in RC's game, that is roughly how I'm expecting things to play out here for different role types. Given that plus our role...No, I'm not entirely comfortable giving it to anyone else. Will I still discuss with mastina on who to vote for it should the game decide it's not going to be us? Yes, of course. I imagine that will come about as we discuss reads and find who we're both comfortable with as far as strong townreads. But I just really don't think you focusing on any of that will net you any insight into our alignment, and it looks like busywork to me right now.

[NoticeMeSenpai]

You did tr me for ate in dota. You had your read wrong on me in dota and in that game of king of the hill that we never finished and okay sure I nitpick as scum so does everyone but I also do it as town so the fact you're acting like I wouldn't do it as town is??? I'm reading into your THOUGHTS if you gave me a legit reason and one that I found okay with the whole claiming bp right away I would've been okay with it but your thought process does not add up what so ever given what I have pointed out already what do you think I should be able to read you on Jae? Also Jae I don't think I've played a game with you when you've been scum correct me if I'm wrong I really don't give a fuck end of the day if you tr me or if you don't do I think you should be able to tr me? I don't know but I do think you claiming that the things I am doing is scummy is BS I am tunneling you because you are my top sr and I am letting Andy sort out the people he thinks he can sort we have a system we are a team it is how we work.

1. In dota after you flipped on me and I realized I brought something in to the game that I shouldn't have, and had been a really shitty friend to you by not talking to you about how I felt about it prior to that game, I did back off my scumread, yes. I felt so bad about what I'd done that I just couldn't continue pushing you and decided at that point if you were scum I'd just let you win and never have anything to do with you again. You were town there, but that was less about your AtE and more about me realizing I had been a huge douche.

2. We've never played king of the hill? I was wrong of you in Persona mafia because that was the Cloudkicker thing. Which I really don't want to bring up again.

3. As town I tend to see your nitpicking as having a point - something you stand to gain from it that's AI.

4. We gave our reasons for claiming right away. Claiming BP right away doesn't really stand to gain us anything if we're scum. It directs potential protectives to protect outside of us. I think as scum I'd rather have them on us than potentially on a town player we'd be wanting to kill. There's no scum motivation in claiming. Even if you want to push the angle that we're lying about trying to tell protectives not to bother, and claiming instead to try for true love... That's... Something both town and scum have motivation to do. So it's NAI.

5. Civilization mafia just ended. I was scum there. (inb4 "you were in a hydra/I was in a hydra" gerry posted less than you did, and I believe wasn't paying attention for much of the game, and you explicitly townread me there, and stated that multiple times. AND my hydra was just me posting, no one else. In fact, it was

this very hydra

.)
BATORU hydra with Impoetic in Trial of the Evoker, also, I was scum. You and gerry I believe were townreading us until I hammered you (which was actually the most pro-town move I could have made there and I still kick myself over just not pretending I was asleep and letting D1 go to no lynch).
You also replaced me in Pokemon as scum, but I don't expect you to remember that since I made like 13 posts before replacing, and I doubt you cared much about reading me, being both scum and my replacement.

[NoticeMeSenpai]

Heads-up, Jae's not going to be able to post tonight and I sure as fuck can't get caught up in the current moment, so.
I'd say tomorrow but that really depends. I don't know when I'll get back in the game and I don't know when Jae can.

[NoticeMeSenpai]

Hey I'm sorry, I still haven't been able to sync with mastina and my depression is peaking aside from that so I'm not catching up again today - I know I should and this is really shitty of me given you already have one head that's MIA but I just can't right now.
I think we're basically waiting on Ari head of Sword of Damocles at this point, and need to sync on Scott & Ramona and Lovebirds. I also am waiting for mastina to check in with me on my thoughts on Devils when she catches up.
I'm at about page 17, haven't caught up from there. I just thought I should check in and let you guys know what I was waiting for to the best of my ability today. Sorry.

[NoticeMeSenpai]

I was told Ginngie is here.
<3

Of course right now I'm not

exactly

here (I've been struggling), but I'll figure out a way to get in.
There are two types of conftown.
The type that do fuckall with it.
And the type who drive games forward.

I'd rather avoid the former if at all possible and right now I'm most decidedly not the latter so I need to fix it and will do so...soonish.

But for the moment, that needed to be said.
<3 Ginngie.

[NoticeMeSenpai]

Btw I should prolly say in this game:
My mafia batteries for the night are almost all spent, in spite of me being in the mood to catch up.

I'm hoping the mood continues into tomorrow. I should have the ability to catch up the next time my mood/batteries allow me to. I'd say that this game would be my first priority when I have both, but that'd probably be a lie; my first would be modding and I do that on my main which means I'd probably

also

be posting on my main so it's prolly honestly the last thing I'll do to log into this account and post here meaning I'd be breaking my promise if I did say so.

But!
I'm aware of the game.
I'm not in it yet.
But I will be...very, very soonish.

School finished, work's mostly done, the main obstacle in life right now is me, and that's something Jae can (and already has <3) help me overcome.

I do apologize for the neglect but it IS temporary.

[NoticeMeSenpai]

Ok I am feeling like a piece of shit for not getting to this game ever, sorry. I'm going to try my best but I'm just... really inexplicably demotivated and I don't know why. With SUPP being over I have less things in theory to keep track of in order to distract myself, which IN THEORY means I should end up substituting in this game in place. That's not how it's going to work without a conscious effort on my part though because I just remembered Cook, Serve, Delicious is a game that feels good to play using an xbox controller in much the same way Skullgirls does. So I'm going to try making that conscious effort now but I'm mostly going to just try to keep up with current events while I catch up a bit so if anyone wants to help, pointing me to some things would be really really great.

mastina still hasn't caught up and I wanted to discuss Devils nomination for us with her because it felt like scum support for our nom and I didn't know if I should mention that and wanted her opinion on it but she never caught up so that's just sitting there in the hydra PT collecting dust and I guess what I would like is some feedback from others on that because I know mastina can read Ginngie but she's not present in thread and so I don't have that help and I should just get it from others like I checked in with Nacho earlier.
So far I'm at the drama thing where morph outed the hood and I think Tammy's response is genuine but I don't know anything about Tammy's scum game. I also feel like Nacho's reach out to me earlier in the game was genuine and not a pockety attempt, it felt like when he reached out to me in Boombox when I went wrong on my PoE, it's hard to explain the feeling but I don't think it was an attempt to pocket me in any case -- that said I do kind of feel like Nacho would reach out to me regardless just to try to help me stay in the game and motivated because he's a nice person so I don't know I might be reading too much into it.

I have too many conflicting reads. I've half checked in at times and seen Ari posting and thought it looked like town!Ari. I kinda felt Clumsy Phoenix's awkwardness recentlyish that got them voted felt like them being lynchbait town as usual as well, but if that's the case then I'm wrong on one of my townreads and I don't want to be and I wouldn't even know where to start trying to figure that out.

Sorry. Starting catch up now from like page 17 where I was at earlier.

~Jae

[NoticeMeSenpai]

Heads up btw:
I haven't read the thread yet.
But Jae did spoil me on a couple of details.
Namely, the existence of the hood and the Ginngie's hydra's defense/nomination duality posts.

So when Jae gets around to posting said thoughts (I'm too lazy to compile what I said in our chat ), just know that this is me verifying that yes I did do those things specifically however no I am still not caught up in the game; that'll come...

...Soonish I think? I might be in a mafia mood today; we'll have to see.

[NoticeMeSenpai]

Okay so change of plans slightly. I'm still going to catch up but I had a quick chat with mastina since she's around and decided screw it with regards to her usual post by post catch up style where she doesn't know anything of shit that happened further in the thread. (sorry babe <3)

So I have some feedback now. She agrees with me that 363-364 was a scum whiteknight and nomination of us. She said it makes sense for scum if they don't have a strongman to buddy the BP IC since they can't kill us and need to be on our good side. Also while calling us town advocating for us to be vigged. I also told her about the 3p hood ftr, but I don't think that factored in to this, she said that we wouldn't lynch Imperium or morph and if there is scum in that hood basically it's Ginngie's slot (and I think she separately reads Gin as scum from what she saw when she popped in earlier?).

Back to catch up stuff. I'm going to just ping stuff through to her and mess up her catch up.

VOTE: Two Real Humans

[NoticeMeSenpai]

Okay my thoughts on Clumsy Phoenix's whole Sun/Moon whatever thing is that they're awkward town. I've seen that hydra be lynchbait. It's a knack they have as town and it's truly amazing, to be honest. I bounced that off mastina real quick, not in depth but just the two parts to role bit that I saw earlier and the planet thing and (to read a bit into her response) she didn't seem as enthused on the read as I am but she agreed that they could be awkward town.
I also ran morph's breakdown of smart's case on us and all of the Ari posts past her since I liked the Ari posts, and felt they were like um... There was a hydra blitz that I played with Sword of Damocles where i was hydra'd with Alisae and Ari initially had a correct read on me (I think he 180'd later though) where smart sucked at reading me really badly and they were town there and it felt like the same kind of thing here to me, but mastina said Ari's posts feel like a caricature of his town self so I think I'd really like Nacho input on that since I know he can read Ari.

@morph I'm going to discuss that with mastina once I'm feeling happy with who I do and don't see as town because I was starting to see town points for everyone with the times I checked in and read a few posts out of order in thread and my reads are a bit messed up at the moment which is why I'm doing it this way. <3

[NoticeMeSenpai]

406 feels really genuine from Nacho and I don't think it's in an NAI way.

Also @whoever it was that mentioned Nacho reaching out. If he reached out during an argument to make two people see each other as town I think that's different to reaching out to someone who is just in general struggling in the game in the manner he did with me here, if that makes sense? I know I specifically asked for the reachout but it didn't feel like there could be ulterior motive in it at all beyond wanting to try to help me feel comfortable with my reads and help give me the feedback I needed?

@Maria I think the way you backed off our slot but held fast to your belief that we could be scum gambiting for true love was townie from you. I'm reading you more than Andy due to more experience with you, and I'm sorry I haven't been around to let you know that.

[NoticeMeSenpai]

@NMS would you say that you're letting your public flavor influence how you play and how you expect people to read you? (Not saying this is the case, I'm legitimately curious about your approach regarding this though)

Can't speak for mastina on this but the answer from me is: Nope.

I expect people to read me as town when I'm town because I quite frankly consider my town play to be obvtown. Sometimes I start off slow and pick up later. I don't think I was expecting to be read as town earlier though, my issue was a lack of people reading me on actual content and instead focusing primarily on mechanical shit and the fact we wanted true love.
I kind of expect people I've played with before to be able to read me easier, especially if they've seen both my scumplay and my townplay because my scumplay is lolawful comparatively speaking. Basically; my expectations of how people should read me are purely because of my confidence in my towngame/scumgame being easy to spot. It's arrogance and burden of proficiency more than anything.

[NoticeMeSenpai]

God, I'm reading this so slowly. It's like pulling teeth because I keep reading the same things over and over and then I look down and see there's over 10 pages to go and my brain goes "you're hungry, you know. Also maybe you should read some stuff in the Speakeasy? I wonder what mastina is doing right now? Another cup of tea?".

I am the worst kind of procrastinator.

[NoticeMeSenpai]

Claiming BP: I have no issue with I'd perk a brow but I would be fine with it
saying "oh protective role's dont go on us" makes me question but still that wouldn't be too big an issue

What I have an ISSUE WITH is them going after the true love thing when they think it's going to give them IC because that makes 0 fucking sense
~Maria

I still don't get how you go from "bullet proof IC" to scum

They provided reasoning as to why they believe it'd be in the game, and it sounds pretty fucking nice to have.

So 2+?=4

where is the last 2 that makes it scummy?

This post sounds like they 100% believe Jaestina was telling the truth about their role, and bludgeoning your skepticism. It has a scum vibe to it.

+2

[NoticeMeSenpai]

Thanks. I have some comments for you about your observations, but I'd like for Jaestina to field this first.

Do you still want me to field that? I don't really see much there that you haven't addressed already, and there aren't really questions for me to answer or anything, so I'm not sure what to engage on. His thing about me with the discrediting line is clearly wrong because I already discussed what I was doing there in this thread. Basically I don't think he's open to new information on this slot regardless of SoD's alignment. I can try to engage it if you still feel I need to but I just kinda feel it might be a waste of time for me? If you think it'll be helpful for you let me know.

[NoticeMeSenpai]

Their earlygame is very concerned with the mystery power and making sure that they secure it, and making sure everyone knows they must be town for having their flavor released publicly. While I don't disagree with either of these in theory, I think they went a little overboard with it, as if they have to convince everyone of it, including themselves.

Don't think either of us pushed that we're town for the flavour reveal.
We did push that we'd be town because I obvtown.
I did push that I believe the upgrade from True Love will make us IC given the flavour reveal.
But nowhere did I say the flavour reveal means people should read us as town, because frankly, it doesn't. Our content is why people should read us as town when they do, not the flavour reveal.

@Maria btw while I'm confident in my ability to obvtown, the point is that people will always have paranoia. That's an inherent part of this game. Scum will also try to discredit us, and it's a lot harder for them to do that and get away with it when we're literally confirmed town to the whole game.

[NoticeMeSenpai]

sword needs to post more hardcore and people need to post what they think about sword hardcore, we still have 6 days which is enough for at least a wagon there after marriage gets sorted but we'll have to be super quick

nominate for true love: morph

do you have any role related reason why you shouldn't experience true love? now is the time to shut it down if you must
-HS

This nomination moving after our expressed scumread while also ignoring said expression of scumread doesn't inspire good feels ftr.

[NoticeMeSenpai]

Can someone tell me why Clum is mostly (or at least semi) tr I'm looking at them and I don't really see the towniness.
~Maria

The townread on you for having the same conspiracy theory regarding our slot felt genuine, and I found the moon/earth thing or whatever to be vaguely indicative of awkward town.
They have a mild gamesolvey feeling to their posts and thoughts that I don't think they would be able to replicate as scum, it's the quieter type that makes you feel like they're genuinely discussing things in the background. idunno sorry it's really hard for me to explain this but I'm trying. They just feel like awkward town. Can you see it when you're looking at it that way or nah?

[NoticeMeSenpai]

This response is a mess but I didn't want to take context out by cutting out prior quotes in this wall so... :/

Spoiler:

Let's look at the posts:

I'm not feeling great about anyone that seems eager to take True Love and nominated themselves. It's way to early in the day. We should be waiting to see meaningful contribution from everyone and give it to a good TR. It's a boost for anyone that has it, so wanting to take it for yourself with no or barely any information on the game is incredibly selfish and scummy at this time.



Town leaning Morph and Burning Hatred right now.

~Ramona

Uhhh... Yet it's not scummy for Burning Hatred to want no one to have it?

~Jae

This looks to me more like they are pointing out what they think is a logic flaw in Ramona's argument, not discrediting Burning Hatred.

It is discrediting townreads on Burning Hatred. They're asking why Burning Hatred isn't a scumread.

I was pointing out a flaw in logic, as explained in thread when I was engaged on it. In fact, this came up in post 143:

143- feels very forced and a bit too defensive in response to an early vote

It was a serious vote. Why shouldn't it get a serious response?

This is a complete deflection of the point. I never said I disliked the fact that it was serious. I said it was forced, because it presents a very rigid explanation of a behavior that Lovebirds found scummy. I also said it was defensive-- overly focused on explaining away the point rather than trying to evolve reads based on it.

I was asked a question, I gave an answer. I expanded on why I felt that what I picked at was important, because Maria's post implied I shouldn't find it so, and I attempted to engage Maria on my read on her own slot in order to see if she would offer up some thoughts on the game outside of our claim. I also explicitly stated the potential for scum motivation in that post, so I feel it's unfair to say I wasn't trying to evolve reads - perhaps not on Maria's reaction to my question to Scott & Ramona, but I felt I already addressed her concern there, so I tried to move it along.

147- feels like sucking up, trying to talk down their reputation to Maria, and an OMGUS-ish implicit threat (stating a reason why scum would push them)

Uhhh... Yet it's not scummy for Burning Hatred to want no one to have it?

Yup, most everything else was noise to me. Chickadee mentioned wanting to take True Love as being scummy because it's a boost for anyone who has it, yet townread Burning Hatred who was voting for No one to have it. Pointing out to her that her logic is flawed and lazy is something I felt could help me get a read on her through her response, and also help me get into the game. Do you disagree with my assessment of her post?
Why am I the head that worried you most at the time of 106? I hadn't posted yet at that point.
I don't like how you're so focused on our role and how you feel we should play it. A bulletproof IC is one of the strongest roles to have around. Especially so for the later stages of the game. Given that, there's definitely scum motivation present in trying to discredit and push on us now to attempt to stop us from achieving that status.

~Jae

I don't really disagree with your assessment but out of all the things to comment on it felt like you were irked that burning was not getting picked on over you I said I was worried about you because I've played with you many times before and I know you're a good player so that's what worries me. I don't really care if you're not gonna like me focusing on your role I see a weakpoint with dumb logic and I am going to keep pushing it

you have clear contradictions that I have pointed out that you have yet to address

why is it scum motivation and me not just finding posts scummy can

Fucking hit the enter button too soon,
Anyway I was saying can I not find your posts scummy as town
~Maria

Not sure I buy that was genuinely your read of the situation, but okay.
I see no contradictions, and as such I'm not sure what you're talking about with the bolded, can you elaborate? Just quote the parts of the post you feel I should have addressed that I haven't, if you feel like you already presented it as clearly as you can.
Why does it worry you that I'm a good player? I'm actually of the opposite opinion, but regardless, are you talking town or scum here? Do you think it not possible that you just don't understand fully what is actually ideal play for our role, given what you've known of myself and mastina to date and how we play?
I feel like there's scum motivation in wanting to get rid of the potentially conftown bulletproof if scum doesn't have a strongman to hit us with. Especially so given you believe that both myself and mastina are good players. Is there potential for you as town to find our posts scummy? Maybe? I can't say I'm an expert on following your mindset. I feel like you're more focused on trying to find something wrong with us rather than trying to genuinely read us.

What part of this looks like sucking-up to you? The talking-down thing seems to be more of a stylistic meta point to me based on what I've seen so far in this game than something specific to this post. I bet if you went through my iso looking for points where I have talked down my game you'd find tons of them. It's something I do, partly out of frustration with my limitations, and partly as policy.

The sucking up is the second line: "I see no contradictions, and as such I'm not sure what you're talking about with the bolded, can you elaborate? Just quote the parts of the post you feel I should have addressed that I haven't, if you feel like you already presented it as clearly as you can." It sounds uncharacteristically nice and accommodating to someone who has supposedly found contradictions. Maybe the talking down is playstyle but it struck me as strategic and not just based on policy.

Should I not try to see where someone is coming from in case they're town so that they can show me that their read is coming from a genuine place? Do you believe I should be a jackass to someone who I don't have a solid read on but feel could maybe possibly be scum with not a high amount of confidence in the read?
It's not based on policy. It's personality.

193- sounds like trying to play the voice of reason

Nominate: No One

- Scott

LUV don't do this again please. Town was actually crippled in civilization mafia from the none pushes.

Calling this out as "trying to play the voice of reason" looks like pure nitpickery to me. (Also, I liked learning about a game where a mechanic was ignored/passed up and how that worked out for town)

It's not nitpicking so much as asking myself "what is the purpose of this post?" There are plenty of ways to inform players about a game where something like this happened without phrasing it in the form of advice; it's definitely a weak point but it's a post I could see myself posting much more easily as scum.

The purpose of the post is to plead with LUV not to do the same thing again that allowed scum a much easier time to get by in Civ mafia and remind him what a bad idea that was. It had nothing to do with informing others, it was a personal level reach out to him.
Why would I bother posting that as scum when I could easily ignore him and hope No One goes through so town doesn't get a boost? I don't feel like you're trying to parse alignment here because you're only looking through and seeing what you can ascribe scum motivation to without trying to figure out if it's even plausible or holds up against potential town motivations.

239- full of meta and most of it is really shallow and simplistic; also, it admits the fallibility of the meta but doesn't weaken the read accordingly

I assume you're talking about the Maria read? What parts did you think were shallow and inconsistent, and why? And what did you think of MariaR's reaction to the post?

I'm talking about all the reads in that post. The S&R read is essentially "Chickadee is town, and LUV is town for playing to his town meta even though he could do so as scum too". That's incredibly shallow and simplistic (I never said inconsistent). The Maria meta is also simplified and using meta is an all around bad idea with Maria. And the read on you is for things that they say are objectively NAI.

If 296 is the Maria response you mean, then I don't think it's indicative of alignment for her.

Why should I not trust in LUV playing his town meta if I believe the other head of his hydra is town? I believe that's supporting evidence that it's not a bad call to make.
Maria was a scumread at this point, but not one I felt highly confident in given I know my own shortcomings. That doesn't mean I should just never scumread someone when I believe the scum motivation I'm seeing might be more present than town motivation, but it does mean I shouldn't bullshit about being confident in my read, because I'm not. I don't see why I should just not bother to try to read someone because I could be wrong, which is ultimately what you're suggesting I do here. Meta is a supporting factor asides. I also disagree that using meta with Maria is a bad idea. Meta on Maria tells you to not take AtE to be alignment indicative with her for most instances, for example. Because that's something she is proven by meta to be particularly decent at doing as scum. Does that mean you never read into her emotions? No, it just means that you tread with caution while doing so, and it should be used as a supporting factor with the rest of her content.

257- quoted posts don't seem particularly hard to fake as scum

And yet Nacho thought they were fairly decent posts to think came from town-me.

And maybe he's right, but I disagree with him.

There was a reason I asked for help with Nacho on those posts. I feel like you ignored that.

353- the whole "not entirely comfortable giving it to anyone else" sounds way more informed than it should and doesn't strike me as inquisitive town who want to learn more about the mechanic but rather declarative scum who have found what they want to do and are trying to make it happen.
-smart

I did a search for "entirely" and "comfortable" in JaeReeds posts using the site search page. I was deluged with posts. It appears that she habitually describes her reads and concerns in terms of how comfortable she is with them. The rest of your observation is meh ok, I guess? I mean I am looking at the True Love mechanic through the lens of my role pm. And in terms of the mechanic, they have speculated quite a bit about it, especially regarding mod meta.

This part in particular looks to me like Mastina's usual highly self-absorbed way of looking at a game, wherein she sees her role (both game role and the role she personally wants to play in every game) as being pivotal.

Once again, maybe it is playstyle but it sounds strategic to me. It sounds like a simplification of what should be a more complex sentiment, which often betrays a scum agenda.

This is ignoring evidence that specifically counters your point.

I won't disagree that I haven't commented on a lot of the things that have happened. Frankly, I don't think it's worth the effort since I don't expect my reads to be very good this early anyway, and I don't have a lot of time to devote to this game.

And I would disagree with the assertion that I don't have a broad view of the game. I do have a broad view of the game, but it's severely limited by several things, primarily the fact that I don't trust myself to read several of the slots that are very relevant to a lot of the gamestate (Imperium, Lovebirds, morph).
-smart

Really not a fan of this given what he's had a problem with in my posting but I can't quite articulate it. It feels... hypocritical? Not quite what I'm looking to say here but bleh.

[NoticeMeSenpai]

The Ari-head marriage vote for you two tripped about 8 billion alarms, though.

While I had a bad feeling about Ari's nomination for True Love....
Ari nominated Clumsy, not us.

[NoticeMeSenpai]

Ok, I'm caught up. I'm going to eat now, then post final thoughts.

[NoticeMeSenpai]

Ok so.
I actually lost some of my thoughts between when I said I'd post final thoughts from my catchup and now. Oops. I don't think I could have handled the hunger for much longer, though, and I'd promised myself food after catching up and technically I'd caught up so...

{morph the cat, Burning Hatred, Imperium}
{Clumsy Phoenix}
{Scott and Ramona, Lovebirds}
{Sword of Damocles, Two Real Humans}

I kind of think it's just Sword of Damocles/Two Real Humans for the scum team right now. It feels too easy, but it feels right.

Discussed with mastina about who we're comfortable giving True Love to.
[morph the cat, Imperium, ourselves]
Burning excluded through his choice.
I'm not confident enough in any of the slots below that tier being town to risk it. Sorry.
Obviously, we'd still like it, but I understand we haven't done enough to deserve it at this point.

[NoticeMeSenpai]

Nominate: morph the cat

[NoticeMeSenpai]

So I'm happy with it but I'm not EXCITED like I would be if we were lynching DGslot, which is my first choice I think.

DGslot is your #1 scumread because...?

I actually really just want to pressure that slot because SoD doesn't seem to care you're voting them.

Am I missing some kind of context here or misreading this? Because you haven't moved your vote from me to DG slot which I feel should have happened if you want the slot to be pressured or preferred that lynch over SoD.

[NoticeMeSenpai]

I had an early hesitation but he's basically been solid with the game and, sort of like me, has drawn a clear line between this game and other responsibilities.

but he's basically been solid with the game

Like how?

+1.

This first part as BH pointed out is really vague, can you elaborate?
I don't feel that drawing a line between a game and other responsibilities is alignment indicative with regards to the rest of the sentence.

[NoticeMeSenpai]

Btw I'm sure Jae told you this expecting me not to actually read this thread, but.
Today's our one-month anniversary. <3

We won't be around today; use your imagination as to why. >;3

[NoticeMeSenpai]

I hope you're feeling better!

I am, thanks! <3

[NoticeMeSenpai]

Sorry, Tammy. <3 Just kinda feels like the game is already solved to me right now, so I struggle to get much motivation right now. If there's something you really want to engage me on let me know, but basically, I'm at the point where I can't think of much I want to say. I was waiting on some catchup stuff but even that looks largely unnecessary at this point.

I kinda want it locked in and certain that morph is getting true love (if you could nom there that'd be helpful I think because I don't like the fact that scum can force it to a draw fairly easily right now - I'd kinda want morph to self nom as well, but I figure people will cover that when they make their lynch votes, hopefully).

And I also just want TRH flipped at this stage too. But I also wouldn't cry tears of blood if Sword got lynched either. I kinda just think that's the team right now.

Ah, actually

@Alisae does the lynchee's vote still count for marriage?

[NoticeMeSenpai]

IIRC Maria unvoted you AND I've been of the mind that we should sort out MARRIAGE before LYNCH for days now.

Marriage is sorted dude, you're not getting it, morph is.

And there's no unvoting today, idrc if your vote is on me or not it's the fact that it's not on the person you stated you wanted lynched. I don't even get how you can be so oblivious to the gamestate to not realize by now that morph is the only decent marriage candidate.

[NoticeMeSenpai]

morph is the only decent marriage candidate.

I'm glad you agree that the Bulletproof Innocent Child claim was ridiculous and no one should have taken that seriously.

I agree that we slacked off and didn't do enough to obvtown, that's all.

And yes, I agree that it should be locked in. You noticed the issue. Now notice that you're part of the problem by sitting back with your nomination up your own ass.

[NoticeMeSenpai]

OMG
O M G

WHAT IS THIS

WHAT IS THIS I SEE

[NoticeMeSenpai]

IS IT

COULD IT BE?

[NoticeMeSenpai]

YES IT IS

A MASTINA SIGHTING!

[NoticeMeSenpai]

(Okay so to be honest I'm mostly here because Jae told me deadline's near. I would be slacking off otherwise elsewhere. I'm also likely not to finish getting caught up tonight because it's 2 AM and I can only work for as long as I am lucid and I've got a lot of catching up to do. The only things I've read are what Jae has directly linked me to; the only things I know are the things Jae has told me about. So you know where that places me?

morph the cat
Lovebirds
Clumsy Phoenix
Imperium
Devils Gear
Burning Hatred
Scott and Ramona
Sword of Damocles

VOTE: Sword of Damocles.

...Waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay back here is where I'm at. Oh and worsening things, I'm hungry. So I'm prolly going to need to eat especially since Jae is online and if they see me posting said me saying I'm hungry they're going to tell me eating > this game because they know I need to even though right now I want to be here more than eat so I'll do as much as I can until Jae scolds me. )

[NoticeMeSenpai]

Yeah, poor Cabd is terrified of this player list. Ima have to carry him.

Btw if anyone ever wants us to explain why morph is just so obviously above all others town they can ask and I'd point to stuff like this. We could write many walls about it, but given that I'm behind, in the sake of conserving both time and energy, I'm going to say instead: if anyone actually seriously disagrees with our stance,

then

we'll talk. Because uh yeah. That would involve an actual ~discussion~.

If everyone townreads morph anyway though it's just a waste of space since I'd just be saying what everyone already knows.

[NoticeMeSenpai]

Also fuck.

B
U
S
T
E
D.

(Guess who was reading a liiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiittle bit more closely than I was anticipating? )

I'll be back after I eat. <3

[NoticeMeSenpai]

Back!
(Ice cream counts as food shut up.)

[NoticeMeSenpai]

Andrius explained his lol

And I didn't?

I was quite thorough in my explanation I felt.

Not that it matters anymore (I know we can't get it and gave it to morph), but I think that no player will get a larger boost from true love than the power of love. The mechanics are literally paired together. Our role has some obvious upgrades which can be made to it (namely the very realistic chance of public flavor-->IC), and thematically it feels appropriate. Words not functioning best right now (I'm mid-argument with Jae which I'm about to lose), but the point remains we were most definitively not without explanation.

[NoticeMeSenpai]

(Actual quote from Jae: NO IT DOESN'T
OMFG YOU NEED MORE

I did ice cream because I didn't have ideas though so I'll have to think of something which may delay me re-re-reentering the game a bit.)

[NoticeMeSenpai]

Let's say you're me. You are town and suggested that no one gets the true love. Why would you do that?

To be a dick.

[NoticeMeSenpai]

Also, if we have a cop or the like, would it be a good idea to check the Bulletproof hydra? If we can clear them, that'd be a bulletproof IC day 2.

The idea behind us getting it would be so that you wouldn't.
fucking.
need.
this.

But oh no let's go call the action SCUMMY and say that surely NoticeMeSenpai self-voting was for selfish reasons and didn't actually have a good purpose.

(Yes I am bitter.)

[NoticeMeSenpai]

(Basically if you recognize the very realistic possibility of oh yes us getting true love = we become a fucking bulletproof IC on D1, then you really need nothing else in order to understand why we self-nominated and why we had every reason to have done so. Because let that sink in for a moment.
Bulletproof.
Innocent.
Child.
On.
Day.
One.

In a fucking MICRO no less. I'm not going to fight for us to get the nomination back--it's too late for that battle. But I am very much going to lord it over you that you let this opportunity pass because you literally are WANTING something that I TOLD YOU HOW YOU COULD GET and you CHOSE NOT TO LET US HAVE IT ANYWAY just because the idea originated from me, so. You really have only yourselves to blame.)

[NoticeMeSenpai]

(Basically: If you want us to be conftown and you supported us, then you are in a position which is respectable.
If you didn't want us to be conftown and you were against us, then you are in a position which I can at least

acknowledge

, albeit begrudgingly.
If you wanted us to be conftown and yet you were against us, then you absolutely deserve my ire. Because I gave you the method to do exactly that. I gave you a way for us to be EXACTLY WHAT YOU WERE LOOKING FOR. Yet you resisted for, what? It being a self-nomination? If morph the cat were the public-flavor player and/or the bulletproof player then I'd have done the same thing for them; I suggested it not because it was us but BECAUSE IT WAS THE FUCKING OPTIMAL PLAY but I digress this probably isn't helpful and the moment Jae reads this they'll tell me I need to calm down.)

[NoticeMeSenpai]

Your flavor is the power of love or w/e it is that is

all we knew

claimg bp was not needed or relevent at all

Flavor being public is a big deal.
Name a single theme game which has had a player have their flavor be public and said player been scum.

(Caveat: must be a mafiascum game.)

I've been here for QUITE a long time and I rather love my theme games. I can tell you most certainly I have not seen any because it's not something you do. The closest you get is a public mafia treestump (aka one game where zoraster was it, camn's revenge where Pine was it), which is still not the same deal.

Our flavor being known to be public is beyond us roleclaiming.
It's the mod roleclaiming FOR us. On our behalf.
It's already a pseudo-IC. What keeps it from being a full-IC is a lack of alignment explicitly given by the mod, but publicly scum flavor is just something that a moderator never does. Could they do it, yes. Could they make a player's flavor known and have said player be scum, in theory. Thus why we're not already an IC. But they just don't. Because it's just unnatural to think of. It goes against the way a mod designer would think in terms of setup design. They'll think of the inverse easily enough.

"Oh this is a role which I can do because it's not technically confirmed town so having it in the game will have it not be an IC".
...But it's still essentially confirmed town because no the mod wouldn't think in reverse, of "Oh this is a role which I want to give scum". Maybe if the mod goes out of their way to deliberately fuck with expectations. But can you say Alisae follows that mold as a moderator? In my experience, no. Alisae makes interesting roles. Roles which make sense. Roles which are fun and which feel thematically appropriate.

And the power of love is thematically appropriate to be town, to be known as town, and to be intangible and thus unkillable.

Claiming the bulletproof was directly relevant because we had as essentially one of our first priorities getting the important parts of our role forward so that the town would know exactly what they were dealing with:
That the town would know exactly why us having true love would be beneficial. (Because, as a bulletproof, scum can't fucking nightkill the holder of true love!)
That the town would know the circumstances behind why we feel we are what we are.
That the town would know what TO do with us and what NOT to do with us. (Namely, not to waste protections on us.)

There were a bundleload of reasons we claimed.

I don't wanna hear this "Lol wagon lol hammer" That's a bs excuse if I ever heard one I know you're smarter then that and I know Jae is (the head I am worried about) lol wagon rarely happen and if they do someone unvotes and lol hammers

And you're focused too much on the literal wording. We claimed at the beginning because there was reasons to claim and virtually no reason not to claim.

You point out we could claim later.
And my point is that there's no reason to claim later and an inherent risk of claiming later.
What if, for instance, someone had a day-ending vig kill (can and has happened) and uses it before we could claim?
What if, for instance, someone gladiated us? (Why, who knows, you'd think nobody would be stupid enough but then again we're talking a player who'd be most likely town.)

If you still think claiming later was better that's your playstyle, your opinion, which is all fine and dandy and all but fuck that it's just your own playstyle/opinion and if you have an iota of understanding you'd recognize mine as being different. I put things forward immediately. I am a "safe" player. I leave nothing to chance. I put things on the table as soon as possible because that is the strategy with the highest chance of success in the long-term.

if you are

that confident

in you being able to town tell/show you're towny being an IC shouldn't matter to you at all?

There's a difference between us being obvtown and us being conftown.
Bulletproof obvtown can still be lynched,

especially

in a playerlist of this caliber. (We have no weak links; EVERYONE this game is a strong player as both alignments and thus EVERYONE is going to some extent in their own way appear as obvtown making obvtown levels come into play if that makes sense and while we might be obvtown we'd need to be more obvtown than the scum each and every day phase.)

Bulletproof conftown cannot still be lynched. Not even in a playerlist of this caliber.

Do I think we can obvtown? Yes.
Should I ever rely on it? Why no. No I shouldn't.

as a bp isn't your job to get hit so maybe they waste a protection on you but that would mean mafia wastes a hit on you too now if you are town and you outted that mafia's gonna ignore you

We weighed the pros and cons of this and ultimately decided that mafia ignoring Jaestina > mafia wasting one kill on us.

Mafia wasting one kill on us means the game goes to evens. For us to actually gain a mislynch from the ordeal, they'd have to kill us TWICE, and that's something they're not likely to attempt. In short, them wasting a kill on us does very little for the town in the long-run, because we gain almost nothing from it and they lose almost nothing from it.

HOWEVER.
In contrast.
The mafia ignoring us leaves us in a position where we can work our magic. I get better later. JaeReed is naturally sharp at all times especially midgame. Between us, the mafia not thinking about us is an advantage. And claiming to let the town know was just the overall most optimal usage of our role.

I am openly willing to admit I am a selfish person and I want that power for the sake of me being selfish and wanting it to see what happens no shame.

While it'd be a lie to say this wasn't a reason (it was) for us, we had put actual serious thought into our self-nomination.

[NoticeMeSenpai]

why do you want to be an IC so badly if you are super confident in your town play you shouldn't need to be an IC

Again.
There's a difference between being someone who shouldn't be scum. (Obvtown.)
And being someone who

can't

be scum. (Conftown.)

We use the former to achieve the latter.
As in.
We use being obvtown in order to make people give us what we want and make us conftown.
At least that's the idea.

Because again.

Conftown is on a whole different level.

Bulletproof conftown.
In a nine-player game.

I really fucking shouldn't.
Need to explain.
Why bulletproof conftown.
In a NINE PLAYER GAME.
Is a valuable commodity.

So damn straight we want it. We'd want it even if we weren't the slot that was. In fact to be fully honest I'd have kinda preferred it that way because the conftown slot has eight slots to sort; the non-conftown slot has seven slots to sort. I didn't want to BE conftown. I wanted there to BE conftown. That's the distinction you don't seem to get. It wasn't about giving us a personal boost because it's us. It was about giving the town the boost which was objectively the best.

[NoticeMeSenpai]

(Basically.

Yes

. The boost was for our slot.
No. The boost wasn't

for us

.
I don't give a damn about the mechanic in of itself.
What I care about is the best usage for the town. And thanks to our role, objectively. I feel like that is us.

Not for us, but for our slot, because not for personal, instead for the town. Personally. If I could make someone else be bulletproof conftown I would. Because then, I'd get to scumhunt from a normal position where I could die, or if not, I'd have one less slot to sort at the very least and always be 100% fully confident in that slot and not have to worry about it. But having that player be us is better than not having that player AT ALL. In a hierarchy, conftown who isn't us > us as conftown > not having conftown. Since the highest is impossible, the middle is what we aimed for. And yet you seem to insist we should be content with the lowest tier. With none in the game at all.)

[NoticeMeSenpai]

Imperium hasn't posted?
So are they the NULL line for everyone or what talk to me.

Andy, Andy, Andy.

It's like you've never even played with me mate.

Imperium was in the town rankings at that point. Not the null rankings.

[NoticeMeSenpai]

I was seriously being like WHAT YOURE AFRAID OF WHO? ME? TAMMY? NACHO?

Why, me of course.

[NoticeMeSenpai]

Stopping at 159.
I've got a kitty on me who slows me down.
And I'm really tired right now.
I'm not reading posts and reading into them alignment at this point.

I'm reading posts to read posts.

Which I do need to do mind you.
But reading posts to read posts isn't helpful to getting content out there and I should be getting content out there.

Yet it's 4 AM.
It's well past the productivity deadline.
Eating two bowls of rice crispies (yes Jae did get me to eat more) took valuable time/energy/effort and spent a currency I had precious little of, awareness. And by the way since sleep makes you sleepy and I just ate (there's some sicent behind why sleepiness increasing after eating but fuck if I can actually manage it at this point)m that means it not only spent time but made negative time on awareness.

I do recognize we're on a tight schedule here so I will try t be here tomorrow but I can't be here right now.

[NoticeMeSenpai]

Plan is good to go, I'd rather lynch SoD over trh cos I want trh to live a bit longer.

I don't.

This made me laugh. <3
Imperium also mirrored how we feel here!

I asked mastina if she wanted to finish catching up before hammer and she said it was fine so we're fine with hammer.

[NoticeMeSenpai]

I've also told her she's allowed to in again to the newbie queue if she catches up by the time night is over so you *should* have a fully up-to-date mastina without watching her get more and more tilted over the nomination thing!

pedit: To be completely honest I don't care what they claim; they're scum.

[NoticeMeSenpai]

Don't.

No one hammers but morph.

[NoticeMeSenpai]

Final Three [morph, Phoenix, Hatred].
gg

Actually we're guaranteed to hit lylo if it should ever come about and we're also conftown from that flip.

[NoticeMeSenpai]

HYPE TRAIN was excitement over lynching my #1 scumread and being right.
Games are, actually, this easy at times.

Especially when the scum don't bother to post.

Except you didn't vote your supposed #1 scumread.

[NoticeMeSenpai]

Like, we've some movers and pushers, some obvtown who just sit around, and some middle-of-the-road people like S/R and NMS who I wouldn't lynch before Damocles but would still roleblock if I could.

Get the fuck out of here we are literally confirmed town from that fucking flip.

[NoticeMeSenpai]

ALISAE YOU BASTARD

YOU STOLE MY FUCKING ROLE.

[NoticeMeSenpai]

(I haven't read the thread but I did see the flip. And MAFIA LOUD FRUIT VENDOR IS MY ROLE GODDAMMIT.)

[NoticeMeSenpai]

(Incidentally though. Alisae stealing my role is kinda sorta proof that Alisae would have stolen RadiantCowbells's role, and thus, yes we fucking WOULD have been a bulletproof IC if we had gotten true love but ah well. Scum lynch is scum lynch, so.)

[NoticeMeSenpai]

I'm more holding out hope, Nacho, that you'll show up here and we can sit down (like we're doing) and have a jam session to sort this out.

This shows a disconnect between his earlier thing bitching about nighttalk btw. It's more chance to potentially jam with Nacho and he was bitching about it while Nacho was here instead of doing what he claims he wanted.

[NoticeMeSenpai]

Also I basically literally woke up and came here because the process I had was:
Wake up at 10 or so-->"fuck no, go back to sleep"-->it's 1-->"okay, now I need a shower"-->I take the shower-->I eat breakfast-->I intend to write a blog post-->Jae asks me if I've seen the flip-->I come here instead of elsewhere which was my plan, so.

With nighttalk that means we get to have me catch up in-thread rather than out-of-thread!

[NoticeMeSenpai]

pedit: We both didn't like their early game, then they disappeared entirely (though ofc I understand rl difficulties and wanting to do other things with your partner than play mafia) and only recently returned and I don't feel confident in them at all. I feel like Jae scumreads me and isn't sharing it yet. And I wonder if that's because they're scum and its not yet time to push Andrius because he's still surrounded by the Cabd/Nacho/Clumsy team who will defend him despite his little original content thing.

Yet... And here's the big kicker....
I literally can't have that nuanced of a read as scum.
Because scum can't genuinely scumread someone.

[NoticeMeSenpai]

HYPE TRAIN was excitement over lynching my #1 scumread and being right.
Games are, actually, this easy at times.

Especially when the scum don't bother to post.

Except you didn't vote your supposed #1 scumread.

What do you think about Andrius's reasons for being uncomfortable with you?

I think they're pure bullshit.
DG slot's nomination of us was a clear fucking scum defense/nom of town and it was what majorly pinged me about them and was what I threw to mastina and then pushed mastina to actually read out of sequence to confirm my thoughts there. Ginngie's carry on was clearly him trying to buddy us/defend us and that's also not how scum goes about defending a partner. It's too fucking blatant.

[NoticeMeSenpai]

Also worth noting is that he liked CP's absence but disliked ours and CP's was some shit like "I like that they draw the line between RL and the game"???

[NoticeMeSenpai]

Like, we've some movers and pushers, some obvtown who just sit around, and some middle-of-the-road people like S/R and NMS who I wouldn't lynch before Damocles but would still roleblock if I could.

Get the fuck out of here we are literally confirmed town from that fucking flip.

Am I missing something obvious because there was no mod-post that said "NMS IS CONFIRMED TOWN".
Anything short of that doesn't mean CONFIRMED TOWN.

THE ONLY INNOCENTS ARE BODIES.

Yeah, you're missing something obvious.
It's called analysis.

[NoticeMeSenpai]

Yet... And here's the big kicker....
I literally can't have that nuanced of a read as scum.
Because scum can't genuinely scumread someone.

This is an argument that's too heavily rooted in semantics in my opinion; Andy could have said "I think they are either secretly scumreading me or I think they are posturing for the opportunity to leave me open as a possible fake scumread later" and his language would have been more precise but it's obvious why he opted for the simpler point instead.

I don't think you've actually addressed his concerns here.

Wasn't scumreading them over Sword until their push ended up not being on TRH with Andy touting that as his top scumread. Especially given Maria had "unvoted" our slot so it's not like their vote was DOING anything else. At the time DG wasn't the leading wagon, either, IIRC. It was Sword. It makes sense for a TRH partner.

To be quite honest if they were different slots I'd called Andrius scum and Maria town. I was holding back there because of Maria, and the fact that mastina said Ari's content looked fake. My original thought was to hold back and see what Sword flipped and if it didn't end the game then adjust and take a harder look at Lovebirds.

Then Andrius started the whole thing about Sword and his #1 scumread "we lynched scum" bullshit.

[NoticeMeSenpai]

Initially I felt Mastina was too focused on the True Love Mechanic and not scumhunting.

The two are one and the same. I am going to use mechanics to break games. I might not have the same head for it as, say, Reasonably Rational does. But I'm still

good

at it. I mean I'm better at subverting it as scum than I am at implementing it as town, sure, yeah. Scumastina knows more and is able to work more freely; town!mastina makes mistakes, makes oversights in her plans which have flaws that lead to them not being perfectly foolproof.

So when I am given a mechanic--any mechanic--I am going to figure out the best usage for it.
To be blunt using it on you wasn't the best, it was just better than nothing.
I had the focus on the mechanic because it was the best thing to be focused on.

[NoticeMeSenpai]

I'm more holding out hope, Nacho, that you'll show up here and we can sit down (like we're doing) and have a jam session to sort this out.

This shows a disconnect between his earlier thing bitching about nighttalk btw. It's more chance to potentially jam with Nacho and he was bitching about it while Nacho was here instead of doing what he claims he wanted.

Do you scumread me or not?

Clearly I do.

[NoticeMeSenpai]

(Speaking of mechanics, I'm running the idea of fullclaiming past Jae because when we say we're confirmed fucking town from that flip.
We really fucking mean we're CONFIRMED FUCKING TOWN FROM THAT FLIP.)

[NoticeMeSenpai]

Alright, Jae supports this, so.
Claiming this now.

Claim: True Love, Bulletproof Friendly Neighbor

.
Yes. Friendly neighbor. As in. The nerfed version of Innocent Child.

When we said we thought we would become a fucking innocent child.
We had DAMN GOOD REASON FOR THINKING WE WOULD BECOME AN INNOCENT CHILD.

It wasn't just because of us having PUBLIC FLAVOR.
It was us having PUBLIC FLAVOR plus having FRIENDLY NEIGHBOR and the obvious upgrade to public flavor + friendly neighbor = innocent child.

The flip of a strongman with a loud friendly neighbor should tell you everything you need to know.

We--admittedly--face the risk of being roleblocked/redirected once claiming this. But ultimately we decided that if the scum want to waste their redirect/roleblock on us rather than using it on any other power roles in the game: so be it.

[NoticeMeSenpai]

Derp.
Claim Power of Love, Bulletproof Friendly Neighbor.

This is why we were saying not to investigate us, too. Because we could confirm ourselves.
We can't be killed.
We can confirm ourselves.
And while the scum can shut down the latter. Without their strongman, they can no longer shut down the former.

So this is more valuable to have out in the open because the town benefits from knowing this more than the scum do.
The scum knowing can redirect or roleblock. (Both of which are realistic roles for them to have.) But in doing so, the scum must use said action on us and not on any other town player who might hold a more damaging night action they don't want to go through.
If they don't. Then we become invincible conftown, because they can't predict who we're targeting and can't subvert us successfully multiple times. And we only need to succeed once with one scum already dead.

One time our action going through. Is all we need to be conftown they can't kill.
If they keep continuously subverting us. Then they do so at the cost of not being able to use that subversion on town players it'd be useful on shutting down.

So they can't kill us and they can only choose between conftowning us or leaving themselves open.
Meanwhile the town knowing this therefore knows how to better use/coordinate night actions. This was one of the motivating factors behind the bulletproof claim; it continues to be a motivating factor behind our fullclaim.

[NoticeMeSenpai]

Only took you forever to spit it out.

Actions speak louder than words, my friend.

[NoticeMeSenpai]

Wasn't scumreading them over Sword until their push ended up not being on TRH with Andy touting that as his top scumread. Especially given Maria had "unvoted" our slot so it's not like their vote was DOING anything else. At the time DG wasn't the leading wagon, either, IIRC. It was Sword. It makes sense for a TRH partner.

Why do you think it makes sense for a partner?
The main scum motivation behind not voting a partner is taking momentum away from their wagon - do you feel that Lovebirds not voting Gin-HS when they did took momentum away from their wagon in a significant way? Do you think that they thought it would?

One thing that stands out to me about that whole progression is Andy hammering through the lynch when I asked for the opportunity to catch up; Andy netting the lynch before I returned meant that there was a wasted opportunity for me to catch up and derail the TRS wagon for them (which I have the charisma to do, and have certainly managed to do in the past) - if he really wanted to give them a chance to live like you're implying here, I think he would have taken the opportunity in most situations. Do you disagree?

I feel that he could have thought it would, yes, then when there was no chance of saving them he wanted to be as vocal about scumreading them as possible.

It was literally going to be a non-issue unless there was a D3 though.

[NoticeMeSenpai]

I don't think that any of the further speculation that I've skimmed is sound (in particular, assuming you know what your upgrade is because there was a similar upgrade in a past game) - I think it moves the needle on Senpai's alignment closer to town but don't really agree with everything else.

It does when you have public flavor + privately know you're a friendly neighbor + have the past game where public flavor with a similar mechanic turned IC + know Alisae steals roles.

When you add it all up.

Innocent Child is the obvious result.

[NoticeMeSenpai]

Then Andrius started the whole thing about Sword and his #1 scumread "we lynched scum" bullshit.

Why did this bother you?

Because he

didn't

lynch scum.
They parked on two slots all fucking day.

[NoticeMeSenpai]

JaeReed, Maria, did you both decide to abandon me?

I didn't! Sorry! I'm back and forth between here and elsewhere!

[NoticeMeSenpai]

You should say hi to us. Pretty sure it would make into the game thread tomorrow if you are successful, regardless of what happens to us.

I'm not willing to discuss our night action with the game at large, sorry, we made our decision on what to do with a TRH scumflip before the lynch happened.

[NoticeMeSenpai]

Only took you forever to spit it out.

Actions speak louder than words, my friend.

I'm not really The Baker anymore.
I don't do subtlety.

-A

I don't think it's subtlety when I come into this night phase making an argument that you're more likely to be scum for what you've been posting...

[NoticeMeSenpai]

Then Andrius started the whole thing about Sword and his #1 scumread "we lynched scum" bullshit.

Why did this bother you?

Because he

didn't

lynch scum.
They parked on two slots all fucking day.

I didn't vote Two Real Humans.
I didn't do jack shit to get them lynched.

I was still happy to see the flip because I thought Gin looked really scummy.

There's no prerequisite to being happy about a flip other than thinking a person is town but as I'm writing this I'm guessing that I am misunderstanding your point because I don't think you'd push on this point?

Your slot did vote them!
You were the turning point of it being a Sword lynch to a TRH lynch!
Especially when GiF said he preferred them alive and your slot's response was "I don't." which made me laugh.

My point was that I feel Andrius was trying to milk towncredit for something they didn't even do.

[NoticeMeSenpai]

We had a sr on them too we just wanted to lynch the other no no he didn't I wanted too and you can't give any reason why you sr us you're just being aggro for 0 reason back OFF
~Maria

Yet you both scumread our slot so what was scummier than us about Sword that wasn't related to Sword calling us scum?

[NoticeMeSenpai]

Claiming bulletproof to save protective roles also doesn't actually make sense, but we're not talking about that

Claiming bulletproof as a bulletproof friendly neighbor should make slightly more sense. Bulletproof was never the main part of our role. It was never something we were focusing on. The friendly neighbor was our focus there.

Essentially the idea at the time was to lead scum to believe that bulletproof was

all

we were. If the scum thought we were nothing other than bulletproof-public-flavor. Then they wouldn't think to use a redirect/roleblock on us, freeing our night action up and allowing us to freely use our friendly neighbor shot to conftown us. Of course, that'd have been redundant if we became an innocent child as was our plan. But I'm not one to rely on just one plan. I wasn't relying on us getting the innocent child--for a start even if we did get true love, no guarantee of that being the power granted. (That was just our own speculation afterall. GOOD speculation mind you and I fully stand by that when the game is over and we see what true love would do for all slots ours would be Innocent Child, but you never know.) But I was assuming that nothing except scum (or town incompetently targeting us) could shut down our friendly neighbor.

And thus, at the time, bulletproof was the obvious half of our role to claim.

Yet with one scum lynched on D1 (and thus, any successful target making us conftown anyway),

and

with the flipped scum being not only strongman but also loud fruit vendor (the mafia counter to our fucking role on every level--strongman to puncture bp, loud fruit vendor as a counterpart to friendly neighbor), we decided that scum redirecting/roleblocking us would actually be a net town benefit, freeing up other town roles, especially with other town roles now knowing the full circumstance behind our role/play and thus being able to target appropriately and not waste frivolous night actions on us.

[NoticeMeSenpai]

You wanna yell you yell at me leave Andy out of this thank you there's no need for you to be acting like this at all
~Maria

I dont' want to yell at you.
I think you could be scum not for your play but for Andrius'. There was something I liked about your play earlier but I can't even remember what that is because I have a kneejerk "you're scum" reaction to literally everything that Andrius posts.

Like, if Sword/TRH could be partnered then why did Andrius want TRH more than Sword while keeping your vote on Sword? It feels like a hopeful counterwagon type situation. This is obviously just a moot point if Sword flips scum though which was why I wanted to just sit on it until we saw Sword's flip but then this night talk thing happened and Andrius continued to ping me.

[NoticeMeSenpai]

I think your confidence level is too high unless you're not showing us part of your process.

We were in fact not showing you part of our process.

[NoticeMeSenpai]

Like it's okay to push us I am fine with this but you're acting gah zzz look if you were anyone else I'd prob have lashed out but god
~Maria

You know I think of you as a friend but I get really peeved when someone snarks at me for no good reason when I want to try to keep things in so that I can work with them if they're town. I don't have endless patience, I just don't. I'm not even sure where you're getting that I'm yelling over just really aggressively pushing my read. I'm sorry if I've upset you.

[NoticeMeSenpai]

We didn't vote them because I wanted to vote sword andy wanted two real humans it was his top sr so of course he's gonna be happy they flipped scum
~Maria

Why was TRH his top scumread?
Why was Sword yours?

[NoticeMeSenpai]

Hi everyone! I've read up to page 3, but May be aloof for a few days. Sorry about that!
- Ari

For what it's worth I feel a town-Ari would be giving commentary on the first three pages even--no,

especially

--if fluff.

[NoticeMeSenpai]

Sword was lower on our list then you were so we voted them we compared lists sword was lower I voted them easy
~Maria

That...doesn't answer why Sword was lower. :/

[NoticeMeSenpai]

This forum needs a dislike button

Legit think the forum would be better with a like/dislike function--or, at the very least (if the dislike function lead to too many fears of abuse/toxicity) a like function.

[NoticeMeSenpai]

So your argument basically depends on a scenario where Maria and Andrius set out to save their partner, see one vote on the counterwagon and immediately give up but don't remove their vote; I just don't think this is the case. I think you're too heavily focusing on them having the vote down on the slot when I don't think that their vote matters as much as their words do and I think they dedicated as many words if not more to pushing TRH than they did Damocles.

@JaeReed

Alright, I'll try to keep that in mind. I don't even really know why my SR on them is such an issue because it's literally only a point if Sword flips town.
I kind of remembered your vote on TRH being the turning point for the wagon on Sword to TRH (Burning voted TRH after you did).
I just feel like someone who doesn't want to hard bus would be sitting doing exactly what Andrius was.

[NoticeMeSenpai]

I'll let him answer TRH when he gets back but TRH was my top sr for a long time too but I didn't like the people voting him at the time (you and scott) so I went to sword mostly because I have some reason to tr everyone else
~Maria

Can you tell me what your reasons were for townreading both myself and scott more than Sword was at that point?

[NoticeMeSenpai]

I knew that you'd say this

i'm interpreting this to mean that you knew i'd call you scum because you are scum and you knew i'd stare into your soul
you don't have to be high energy or high commitment - would never ask something like that from you
but i know you have something from those first three pages and I think you should share it with us before you forget!

More or less this is my response as well to that post.

Ari just as town has a bundleload of joyous cheer and fun. He's quirky, but every bit as bright as his title would imply. Uplifting with an upbeat personality, and always with something to say even if it's on something so frivolous people would swear it to be fluff. (And it often is to be fair.)

His 210 is like a caricature of that. It's a facade; it radiates being fake and flat. He doesn't have that same energy about him. It's too serious and too direct. No whimsy, just randomness, yet randomness alone does not a town Ari make.

[NoticeMeSenpai]

You wanna yell you yell at me leave Andy out of this thank you there's no need for you to be acting like this at all
~Maria

I dont' want to yell at you.
I think you could be scum not for your play but for Andrius'. There was something I liked about your play earlier but I can't even remember what that is because I have a kneejerk "you're scum" reaction to literally everything that Andrius posts.

Like, if Sword/TRH could be partnered then why did Andrius want TRH more than Sword while keeping your vote on Sword? It feels like a hopeful counterwagon type situation. This is obviously just a moot point if Sword flips scum though which was why I wanted to just sit on it until we saw Sword's flip but then this night talk thing happened and Andrius continued to ping me.

Andy wanted to vote TRH but I know for a fact if I want to bote something Andy will let me do it he's not the type to go like "No Maria I wanna vote this" so he let me do it he's happy his top sr flipped scum that's why he kept asking for a hammer hell I bet he wanted to do it himself but didn't just to not upset me

Okay, I can understand that.

Like it's okay to push us I am fine with this but you're acting gah zzz look if you were anyone else I'd prob have lashed out but god
~Maria

You know I think of you as a friend but I get really peeved when someone snarks at me for no good reason when I want to try to keep things in so that I can work with them if they're town. I don't have endless patience, I just don't. I'm not even sure where you're getting that I'm yelling over just really aggressively pushing my read. I'm sorry if I've upset you.

I don't mind if you sr us I don't mind if you aggro push our slot and I've clearly misunderstood because this doesn't feel like aggro pushing it feels like attacking and I get a bit protective I care for you too friend
~Maria

Sorry if I made Andy feel attacked on a personal level. Wasn't my intention.
I can understand getting riled up when you feel your SO is under attack, I'd do the same. <3 I'll try to tone it back a bit for you.

[NoticeMeSenpai]

why my SR on them is such an issue

For them or for me?

For you, I can understand their kneejerk reaction to being scumread because I get like that, too. Especially by a slot you already felt suspicious of.
I guess you're just trying to play mediator?

[NoticeMeSenpai]

This is what happens when mastina has no time to bounce things around with me.

I love you my dearest of dears. <3
I did enjoy bouncing things off of you a bit and saying with Ginngie's hydra was a scummy scumfuck and I do mirror your disdain over how the Lovebirds treat us yet think that our energies for second scum should be focused on Sword of Damocles. <3

[NoticeMeSenpai]

Can't put someone who haven't posted on top

Yes you can you just have to be me to do it.
(Though people who haven't posted tend to instead be at the 75% mark on average for me--not at the top but above the middle usually.)

[NoticeMeSenpai]

Every time I read Scott posts I want to rope him
Is it just me?

It's not; this is one place where I'm kinda sorta trusting in Jae. I want Lovebirds to be town (aside from it being more satisfying if their distaste of us is just them being scum, which is just too easy/clean unfortunately), and Jae holds Scott/Ramona to be townish more or less. (I'd have to talk with them to get synched up on our exact stances there, but that's more or less the major differences in reads.)

Basically I don't think Scott/Ramona are scum. But if Sword of Damocles somehow wasn't our second scum, Scott/Ramona would prolly be the first place I'd look

for

said second scum. (But that said. Sword of Damocles is just the second scum. I really think we're going to have a perfect town win here because I really just think this is their scumgame and that everyone else is more or less more town than not with a fair share of these being more rather than less.)

[NoticeMeSenpai]

I'll let him answer TRH when he gets back but TRH was my top sr for a long time too but I didn't like the people voting him at the time (you and scott) so I went to sword mostly because I have some reason to tr everyone else
~Maria

Can you tell me what your reasons were for townreading both myself and scott more than Sword was at that point?

You've had glimmers of town I thought part of what you've said was town I also want you to be town because being clear town in dota with you was great and I felt bias so I wanted to back off
Scott and Ram we just saw some towny things in there iso where we couldn't find that in swords
~Maria

Alright, that makes a little more sense.
I'll just back up and we'll face the game continuing on D3 if there's even a D3 because I don't really want to fight with you when there's a decent chance we're both just town. <3

[NoticeMeSenpai]

For you, I can understand their kneejerk reaction to being scumread because I get like that, too. Especially by a slot you already felt suspicious of.
I guess you're just trying to play mediator?

I don't understand why I think your read on them is an issue and this certainly isn't one of the times I'm playing mediator.
I've pressed you to answer specific concerns that you glossed over because you glossed over them and I find interactions to be more meaningful when both sides are interpreting one another correctly. I've pressed certain points of your case because they are doubts I have about them; if you have compelling reasons to dispel my doubts, I have things to think about. If my doubts are valid and you find them compelling, then your focus moves somewhere else.

There's a decent chance that the majority of it is just build up of annoyance over the snark directed at us all game from Andrius, honestly.
I have a tendency to confbias and tunnel which I'm painfully aware of right now. Is there anything that I haven't addressed from you yet?

[NoticeMeSenpai]

^ Which is a reason I also don't want to fight Maria on this if she thinks it feels more like I'm attacking him, because while it might not be my intention to do so, that may be what's coming out unintended.

[NoticeMeSenpai]

I'm aware for Scott that it would maybe be easy to fake his uncaring and loose town meta.

Somewhat.
If LUV maintains that he was genuinely in his town meta as scum in WWF.
Then I'd say it's definitely within his capacities.
If he admits he was just a scumfuck that game.
Then a bit harder.

I'd assume this was from the lack of content, though.

Not only the lack of content but a lack of seeing town in the content which was given. I would call them town right now because I can

see

them as town + I want to trust Jae's read here + Sword of Damocles is just scum. But if Sword of Damocles somehow flipped town. Then Scott/Ramona would be my first place to look since I also see why they would be scum.

[NoticeMeSenpai]

(For the record though 243 does vaguely look like what I'd expect from a town-LUV. Like I said, I can see Scott/Ramona as town, it's just that they're literally the weakest of my townreads and essentially nulltown to me with literally every other player save Sword of Damocles being a stronger townread for various reasons.)

[NoticeMeSenpai]

I think the belief that the true love mechanic was designed for them, in a game about love, is unjustified at best and complete bullshit at worst. One thing that in particular stood out for me was the last line of 141, which claimed that

Town can basically cop us by giving us the true love mechanic, imo.

Which is not true because if they are scum they can take the true love and then say "welp I guess it was the 20%, so whoops we're not an IC sorry guys".

This is pretty definitively scum shading btw. Also from that same post:

Not to mention that (a) a game that DID have a chance for a bulletproof IC would certainly have a strongman and (b) I have a growing suspicion that scum have more information than us about what True Love does.

OH HEY GUESS WHAT SCUM ENDED UP HAVING.
Scum would certainly have more information than us about them having a strongman, after all.

(Incidentally Ginngie's hydra slipped this same knowledge at a later point which Jae showed me and it contributed to my scumread on their slot and it's just as true for Sword of Damocles as it was for Ginngie's hydra.)

(Now, one option I'm actually considering, especially if we decide that True Love is likely negative or only slightly positive, is giving it to them and then autolynching them if they don't become an IC, and I'll talk to Ari about this as well. But for the moment I like where our true love vote is.)

I also don't quite have the words for why this is bad, but.
This was bad, so.

Time to go back to bothering Ari to give his thoughts

This was also not a hydra-partner-interaction which looks sincere. It feels faked. I wish I had the words here, too, to explain that in more detail. If Jae agrees with any of this then maybe they can help extrapolate words on my behalf. <3

[NoticeMeSenpai]

I haven't been able to touch base with mastina and you're a good point of reference for bouncing reads and reasonings off, I find.

Anyone I tend to synergize well with tends to make a good substitute for me in that regard. I synergize well with Nacho, so if you can't talk to me then talking to Nacho achieves much of the same effect as talking to me would.

He obviously differs from me in exact reads/reasons but I hold him in high esteem and really tend to place a disproportionately high amount of trust in his opinions...especially if I can see where they come from. If I have the same general feeling he does then him having it will erase any doubt. If I had a conflicting read, he is the one who removes the conflict. If I have a read which was more scum than town yet he calls it town, if the town in there was strong enough then he alone might be enough to reverse it--not to full-town of course, but to north of null. It's not blind faith; his reads aren't necessarily better than mine. It's more like when I see him post something I get a feeling of "that's right", "I think that's right", "that actually might be right", "I want that to be right", "I hadn't thought of it that way", "I need to seriously consider it from that angle", and the like.

[NoticeMeSenpai]

Honestly, part of me wants to give the TRUE LOVE/MARRIAGE thing to a couple.

Jae and I very much are a thing if you weren't aware so we fit that criteria just for the record.

If I were to construct a reads list I'd have all of [Devils Gear, Clumsy Phoenix, Damocles] off of it entirely or in the needs more content section. Like, I can't recall anything from DG that made me feel strongly one way or the other.
I'm also waiting on Tammy to show up too. I'm wondering what Nacho actually thinks of our slot.

As much as I dislike how Scott is playing the game I do like Ramona's metered approach.
I don't like NMS's whole claim thing and the speculation is stupid and

people seem more concerned with my WHY CONFRONT THE RISK ANDY than their whole schpeal on Bulletproof IC speculation

. We don't know anything why are we still talking about it.

HS I need you here right now.
I'd like to know your reads and don't spare my feelings.

I'm mostly interested in the [morph, NMS, Imperium] bloc right now.

Oh and Shaziro. I'd like to see him here too.

Priority One for me is to sort out the [morph, Imperium, CP, DG] bloc because I know some of them very well (Cabd, Imperium) and want them sorted first so everything else can fall into place later. I want to resolve this now while I can discern you clearly and have you at my side if you're town or run you up if you're not.

For what it's worth overall I'd say Lovebirds would be the fallback-of-fallbacks. This, from a combination of wanting to trust Jae's read + stuff like this. I still think they're town, in particular for parts like the bolded which stand our as being things I don't think come from scum. But I can see them as scum and that's not something I can say for most slots. (Imperium/morph mainly are pure-town with still-very-much-largely-town on GIF and Clumsy, albeit, slightly reliant on trusting others there.)

I liked their early content, and I think they are town. But they'd be the

second

place I'd look for scum if Sword of Damocles flipped town. Still though. They're town because town posts > scum posts + Sword of Damocles just being scum.

[NoticeMeSenpai]

Who do you think is a better scum player? You or Scott?

We vastly disagree on this. I think it's him, he thinks it's me.

For the record I do kinda like this.

There's good reason why I just think outright it's just plain and simple Sword of Damocles.

Everyone else in the game is posting town stuff.

Sword of Damocles...doesn't.
And Ginngie's hydra didn't.

Basically some players post town stuff; some players post scum stuff.
The slots with town stuff and not scum stuff are our strongest townreads (obv);
There's only two slots with no town stuff and scum stuff, and those slots are/were Ginngie's hydra and Sword of Damocles.

[NoticeMeSenpai]

VOTE: Lovebirds

Even if your read has changed I would love to see what motivated you to make that vote at that point if you can remember.

In particular I get mixed feelings about 296 and wonder if that in any way contributed. (My overall feelings there are town but could be scum.)

[NoticeMeSenpai]

mariar is the only player which consistently fucks with my radar to the same level dunnstral does, so i can't wait for this
i don't like mariar tunneling jaestina so hard over their claim and true love request, especially when mariar mostly glazes over CP doing literally the exact same thing, just more subtle and sneaky (which is exactly how scum would go about it)
i don't really buy andrius' unconditional sheep of mariars read either? unless i'm missing something there?

how do you have sword of damocles so low when to my memory they've posted so little at this point in time? if imperium (who hadn't posted at this time) is a null read, how are you townreading CP and wtf is that damocles scumread?

slight pings on uzi and massive pings on cp

ohhhhh so this is what you were going for lol okay I see the ploy here.

I don't see the ploy exactly! Mind talking to me about it?

thisthisthis

So obviously this is a scum post. I'm cutting out some content which would further show it to be such because I don't need to tell you as much we literally have the slot flipped and thus know it already to be true.

But what I want to point out is that basically the entire playerlist here (save morph/Imperium) is being shaded, with one notable exception: the defense of Sword of Damocles.

I mean.
I know it's "easy".
I know that it normally isn't that easy.

But I really just think that, in this particular game. It really is that easy.

[NoticeMeSenpai]

Whoever posting, are you caught up or are you posting as you're catching up

That's mastina; she likely won't read your post. She posts as she catches up, doesn't read the preview edits or further ahead usually while she does it (which was my point about me screwing up her catch up by making her weigh in on some posts for me).

[NoticeMeSenpai]

VOTE: Devils Gear
- Scott

For what it's worth I also am pretty sure this is unambiguously a townpost.

If my head was in the game at that point in time I would have made that exact post: naked vote and all.

[NoticeMeSenpai]

sweeeet uzi wants me lynched
why is this
-HS

(This also doesn't look like a scumbuddy interaction for what it's worth, so.)

[NoticeMeSenpai]

321 is also a bit of an empty, hollow post overall. None of the interactions really feel genuine. I'm especially not fond of the Devil Gear interaction.

i don't like mariar tunneling jaestina so hard over their claim and true love request, especially when mariar mostly glazes over CP doing literally the exact same thing, just more subtle and sneaky (which is exactly how scum would go about it)

It's not literally the exact same thing. CP was more vague and less emphatic, and they retracted what they said.

This felt like it was not an interaction they were intending to get anything from.

how do you have sword of damocles so low when to my memory they've posted so little at this point in time? if imperium (who hadn't posted at this time) is a null read, how are you townreading CP and wtf is that damocles scumread? slight pings on uzi and massive pings on cp

>Questions scumread on us when we'd only made 3 posts at the time
>"Massive pings" on CP who's only made 2 posts so far

This interaction would be all fine and dandy and all that...
...If there were actually some backing behind it. At this time, Sword of Damocles wasn't voting anyone--if this were something they genuinely had an issue with, why not vote it?

258 is really weird. i really don't see why you're so sure that nms is lying? like at worst it could go either way, and at best i'm starting to think that it's probably the best thing we have going for us atm. hard to get my head around how you actually believe this, elaborate?

I'm actually interested in why you believe it. Claiming BP so you don't draw protectives is dumb and trying to outguess the setup the way they're doing is even dumber. (And even if they're right they almost certainly get killed by a strongman.) It doesn't strike me as a play Jae and mastina would make if they were being honest.

This one the problem isn't with the Devils Gear interaction (though that's not really the best either), but is more in the contradiction in thought process behind the first half (dumb town given strongman) and the second half. Also once again for emphasis. We now know there was in fact a strongman in the game. This reads as Sword of Damocles being ready to justify our flip when it would happen.

[NoticeMeSenpai]

Particularly this line from Devils Gear stands out to me:

especially when mariar mostly glazes over CP doing literally the exact same thing, just more subtle and sneaky (which is exactly how scum would go about it)

How exactly is this:

I'm going to be very straightforward with this: if either of my thoughts are right, it's positive for us. One is a simple upgrade, not sure what it would be. The other might actually be the activator for my side of the flavor, which may be the most powerful role in the game. Also, the receiver of this will likely be the NK target. I'm not afraid of that though, I've stared worse things in the face. I have ways of dealing with the NK.

Nominate Clumsy Phoenix

subtle and/or sneaky?

Quick reads so far, before I get with my other head hopefully at some point today: Town lean on Scott and Ramona, this feels like town LUV I think.

Scum lean on Devils Gear, it seems like they're trying to find something to push for scummy.

I think I might lean town Lovebirds, but I'm going to need a reread on them. I'm somewhere in the middle for Sword, liked some posts, but not super strongly.

I particularly like this string of posts back to back from Clumsy Phoenix. If this is scum distancing from their scumbuddy, it's smooth-as-fuck.

The ease of it and naturalness of the whole ordeal just makes it be something I have trouble coming from scum and I wish I had the words to better explain exactly why that interaction was organic whereas the prior Sword of Damocles interaction was stunted and artificial. This one felt like a natural growth with a fluidity to it; Sword of Damocles's was more forced.

[NoticeMeSenpai]

They were made about 10 minutes apart, and it went from "I kinda want to have it" to "I think this was LITERALLY DESIGNED FOR US". It seems like a huge shift in opinion in such a short time.

Your lack of mastina experience does in fact show.

Also

@NoticeMeSenpai

, was the decision to out bulletproof made with both of you discussing it? Or just one of you deciding to out that?

It was both, but also mostly me. I talked it over with Jae and we weighed the pros and cons behind it. Ultimately it was something that Jae held trust in me to be right about. (Similarly so for our BP friendly neighbor fullclaim.) I did think that ultimately, given what we knew, it was better for the gamestate to have that out on D1.

Was this ever further discussed between you two?

If 'you two' refers to us and not Lovebirds, the answer is obviously yes. We were discussing the possibility of us being an IC during pregame. We were both waiting for daystart and online at the same exact time, which allowed us to go back and forth on the matter quite a bit.

[NoticeMeSenpai]

Btw RE: Clumsy Phoenix's interactions vs. Sword of Damocles's interactions, Jae basically described it as emotional investment: "what the fuck I wasn't sneaky at all?", essentially, from them which was absent from the Sword of Damocles's more distant stance. It was more personable. We're both on the same page in thinking that it's beyond what either head would be capable of producing if Clumsy Phoenix were actually scum.

[NoticeMeSenpai]

sweeeet uzi wants me lynched
why is this
-HS

I dislike that you don't like Lovebirds opting to push NMS over CP. CP only had 2 posts when you made your accusations. One of the two contains them nominating themselves and nothing about it was sneaky. It was quite straightforward. Clumsy had some thoughts that I assume he hadn't talked about with his hydra partner at the time on what finding true love will do to their role. Similar to NMS, his thoughts were made public, but the difference is that they aren't being pushed on us. Clumsy shortly after walks back by saying finding true love isn't as great as he thought it would be. Now what exactly was cunning or devious about those two posts? Also, why aren't you voting for them? You claim that they're pinging you hard but your vote is still on Morph.

This level of thorough, on-point analysis is also beyond what I would think LUV to be capable of doing as scum. It's well within his range of towngame to post something like this and yet I don't think he does something like this as scum.

[NoticeMeSenpai]

Hi! I like that somebody pointed out that Devil's push on us was bad, but I'm biased of course.

Imperium I wanted to townread, it seemed like they were asking good questions and being towny as hell. But then I realized that y'all seem to be asking lots of questions but I don't really see you doing much with the information or making pushes. Seems like a lot of "This post seems towny" when you do analyze things, and just questioning otherwise. Can you speak to that, either head?

I also think this is a solid post by Clumsy Phoenix. It shows a good angle and approach and a very hard position to take as scum. I can see bold scum (e.g. me) going after and attacking Imperium (hilariously stupid as that may seem). I don't see Shaziro or for that matter the entire hydra of CP as being that kind of bold scum though. It feels out of place as a push scum would make.

It also feels natural as a push town would think, because it is giving things from a unique angle. This is original thought on their part. It's not something which can just be thrown out on a whim as scum.

[NoticeMeSenpai]

@Damocles

1. CP was vague and emphatic, sure. This is exactly what I meant by they're being more subtle. CP hadn't retracted their offer when Mariar had made her post.
2. Your 3 posts were entirely NAI, whereas CP's posts were meaty and content filled.
3A. Claiming BP to not draw protectives isn't dumb, especially if you think you'll get IC before night.
3B. You're putting a lot of stock into there being a strongman. What leads you to believe that there is? Sure, bulletproof IC is very powerful, but you have to remember they need to actually get us to use true love on them for it to work, which is hard to get past any town composition, really. We sure aren't going to let it just sit there, right? This is better than anything else we have, and if it doesn't mod confirm IC them, we can always verify their bulletproof claim with a vig shot, which is probably one of the better ways to spend a vig shot in that situation IMO.
3C. Sure, scum could have information on what True Love does, but I'm not sure how that changes anything. I'm fairly sure it's probably positive regardless of alignment?

322 and 333

@Clumsy Phoenix

I wasn't saying your post was particularly subtle and sneaky by itself, I was saying that it's -more- subtle and sneaky than the way Jaestina is doing it.

Don't try and frame my argument into being something it isn't.

And your townread on Scott and Ramona, why? "Feels like town LUV"

I'd like to contrast these two. Beyond looking at how thorough and meticulous the interaction with Sword of Damocles is (because it's fake) compared to how short the Clumsy Phoenix interaction is (because it's sincere), read also the difference in tone between the two.

To Clumsy Phoenix's accusations, Devils Gear felt slighted, felt offended--there was emotion behind it. The "right for the wrong reasons", kind, the "we're scum but we're not scum for THAT!" feeling of objection to the points against them. The bolded in particular is what I'm talking about here.

To Sword of Damocles's accusations, it was basically a by-the-book reading, as if reading off of a script: the definition of scum theater. There is no emotion behind that interaction.

[NoticeMeSenpai]

I'm glad you're also scumreading Jaestina for similar reasons as Mariar because I was starting to worry I'd have to actually ask Mariar about it which terrifies me.

I do appreciate your more direct way of speaking, but don't worry about it too much my dude. I wasn't being too serious earlier, and the mixup on 'what are you interested' was just grammatical.

For what it's worth I don't feel like this was a scum-scum interaction. Why would you be terrified of interacting with your scumbuddy? Why would you even fake being terrified of interacting with your scumbuddy? It just felt like something which was real and not something that was a lie.

[NoticeMeSenpai]

Burning hatred

mentioned I'm being passive, yeah I'm being super passive atm, I'm feeling a little bummed on this game and on mafia in general tbh. It's my fault, I'm working on it.
Clumsy Phoenix should have insight on one of the contributing factors why, but that's not all.
Andrius can confirm that I have issues reading Clumsy, he modded Darkest Dungeon mafia.

All of these read as attempting to get town to defend them and not getting a scumbuddy to intervene on their behalf. The whole post is obviously a scum one but none of the interactions within (the attack on Scott/Ramona, the indifference on Clumsy Phoenix while simultaneously looking to be defended by them, etc.) look like they're scum-about-scum.

[NoticeMeSenpai]

3B. You're putting a lot of stock into there being a strongman. What leads you to believe that there is? Sure, bulletproof IC is very powerful, but you have to remember they need to actually get us to use true love on them for it to work, which is hard to get past any town composition, really. We sure aren't going to let it just sit there, right? This is better than anything else we have, and if it doesn't mod confirm IC them, we can always verify their bulletproof claim with a vig shot, which is probably one of the better ways to spend a vig shot in that situation IMO.

So you are talking them down about putting a lot of stock into scum having a strongman, a pretty normal balancing tool, but then assuming there would be a vig in a 9 person game in the same paragraph?

We already know this is a good point given the slot has already flipped scum, but.

I really think this is a good point which originated from town. The timing, the casualness of it, the viewpoint, everything about it is something which just flows smoothly and isn't forced. I don't feel like Clumsy has inside knowledge of the slot being scum with things like this. I get the impression of them genuinely discovering aspects of the slot which are scum and honing in on them.

[NoticeMeSenpai]

Between Pie and I, we have two different night actions.

I'm pretty sure this is the case for everyone.

I suppose it depends on where the mod draws the line.
We only have one active ability, the friendly neighbor.
We have two passives, our bulletproof and us having our flavor publicly declared.

You could call that one, you could call that three, you could also argue it's two if you argue one of the passives isn't

really

an ability. But obviously this is something which should be revealed on a need-to-know basis and thus, not something to speculate on much further.

[NoticeMeSenpai]

This argument is pretty weak, given that if scum chooses the wrong player to tunnel it can screw them over.

Gee I wonder if mayhaps that has something to do with your noncommittal reads! Sure does sound like scum trying to avoid choosing the wrong player to tunnel on.

(Said post prolly contains a lot more I could point out but it's just scum.)

[NoticeMeSenpai]

Also yeah NMS slid into the background which hasn't gone unnoticed.

Ask Maria what I was doing.

She'll tell you just as much as I will I was busy pouring my heart and soul into winning WWF. (Which I did, even if I didn't WIN-win. So close though, if not for a fucking bullshit aspect of the game I didn't know about. If I'd known I couldn't kill twice I would have WON-won.) Also I believe with school, forget if I was done by this point or not but I was definitely busy. Jae also had ~stuff~ happening which I'm sure they mentioned if they read this.

[NoticeMeSenpai]

For the record I'll just say this at around the page 17 point.
The amount of genuineness from both the surviving neighbors is just so much that it's just not coming from scum ever.

There's some things you can't fake--these are them.
Even if these things

could

be faked, there are some things you DON'T fake--these would also be among them.
Even if for some morally dubious reason you somehow decided it was okay to fake it, there are some things which are just not advantageous to you as scum--and these are among them.

It's not worth it on every level.
The amount of pain, the amount of hurt, the amount of emotion.

Even if you draw scum you're not going to put that much shit in.

Which is one reason why Imperium and morph are both town.

[NoticeMeSenpai]

Mastina we miss you. There's lots of data ITT you can't make jae do literally everything!

Well I

can

, I just shouldn't.

Jae's more than competent enough on their own no matter how much they love to deny it. <3

I actually think for the most part we're in synch?

Right now my reads would look something like:
morph/Imperium
Burning Hatred/Clumsy Phoenix
Scott and Ramona
Lovebirds
Sword of Damocles.

...And I'm pretty sure that's near-identical to Jae's. Our reasons may differ slightly, but the overall push is the same. We're largely in-synch and have been whenever I have been called upon. (Jae scumread Ginngie's hydra, I scumread Ginngie's hydra, etc.)

[NoticeMeSenpai]

Maybe this game is easy and it's just SoD & DG.
But I tend to not have easy game like that

I know it's easy.
I know it makes so much sense that it would normally never actually be true.
And yet.

It just fits.

I really do think it's just that easy.

[NoticeMeSenpai]

The only post that is stopping me from voting SoD is #258.

(There is nothing in there which should stop you from voting Sword of Damocles.)

[NoticeMeSenpai]

@NMS would you say that you're letting your public flavor influence how you play and how you expect people to read you? (Not saying this is the case, I'm legitimately curious about your approach regarding this though)

Yes.

When I get to choose if/when I reveal my role, I'm going to insist on being read by play.
When I have it forced upon me with my role revealed, the option to be read by play is tainted--play may be a part of the read. But role has factored in

everyone's

stance on our slot, my own included. I go in knowing that others have that bias towards me. And so it is more difficult for me to establish organic connections because it is more difficult to establish what's a real townread and what's a role-townread and what's a scum-townread.

Though to contrast. It does help I suppose in that it's a little bit easier to sort what's a real scumread, because a real scumread requires disregarding role in favor of play; a fake scumread involves more attempting to pretend the role doesn't exist. Or in other words, town-scumreading is "fuck the role I think the play is scum"; scum-scumreading is "I think the play is scum let's talk more about that" essentially.

There's just a different way of approaching things. When I know I am known to be town. All my plans are similarly adjusted. When I know I am not known to be town. I have a greater degree of freedom. It feels more restrictive, essentially. And restrictions = greater challenge, but a different form of fun and thus a different approach from another game.

Not quite sure if that makes sense though.

[NoticeMeSenpai]

Sorry if I made Andy feel attacked on a personal level.

Not at all.
Just wondered where the AGGRO came from.

Honestly? Probably just general annoyance with your snark throughout the game.

I'll let him answer TRH when he gets back but TRH was my top sr for a long time too but I didn't like the people voting him at the time (you and scott) so I went to sword mostly because I have some reason to tr everyone else
~Maria

Can you tell me what your reasons were for townreading both myself and scott more than Sword was at that point?

You've had glimmers of town I thought part of what you've said was town I also want you to be town because being clear town in dota with you was great and I felt bias so I wanted to back off
Scott and Ram we just saw some towny things in there iso where we couldn't find that in swords
~Maria

Alright, that makes a little more sense.
I'll just back up and we'll face the game continuing on D3 if there's even a D3 because I don't really want to fight with you when there's a decent chance we're both just town. <3

What happened to D2?

Can you answer about TRH from your side please?
And D2's lynch so far looks set to be reserved for Sword barring some major towntelling from the slot.

[NoticeMeSenpai]

I don't see myself voting Lovebirds or Scott/Ramona in the forseeable future. They're my top 2 town reads. I'll have to sit down with Shazhead when I get back and hammer out our biggest scumreads.

This is another instance of unusual stances which are not things I think scum are likely to actually take. There's very little to be gained by appealing to these players specifically. They're not under pressure, they're not driving the game forward, they're neither mislynch bait (white knighting) nor town leaders (players to pocket for endgame), and yet Clumsy Phoenix holds them as the highest town--showing to me an utter lack of interest in those two scum factors.

Their townreads are their townreads, and that's something I think comes from town.

[NoticeMeSenpai]

I highly recommend staying away from that game btw
You don't want to read that game.

(You really, really don't.)

[NoticeMeSenpai]

Not gonna lie, would have moved our vote onto Maria if it wasn't there already
Early on before reading became a blur it looked like Maria was like, mad that we could have a town!firm
that.
doesn't make sense.

For what it's worth this theoretically

could

be scum distancing but I just really don't think this is.

To be honest I'm better at reading Ginngie's alignment than reading Ginngie's posts for OTHER PEOPLES' alignment, so I could be mistaken here, but.

With Ginngie as scum I don't think she opens up this aggressively against her scumbuddy. This was a hard, immediate push.

Yeah

, that could be for the towncred, but I just don't think it's actually the case.

[NoticeMeSenpai]

porque

For what it's worth I'm pretty sure I know this interaction really well and this is the Ginngie-is-trying-to-pocket-that-player reaction, directed towards Burning Hatred. The interactions there are not something which I think that either of those two slots could so easily fake. Their banter was pretty clearly natural and unstilted, and with us knowing Ginngie is scum, Burning Hatred is just town.

[NoticeMeSenpai]

Hi Ginngie!!!
Who's your other head?
I'm reading up now. I think I'm only half a game behind, so not too bad.
- Ari

This is also a fairly flat reaction to the presence of Ginngie. It feels like an act, for show. As something meant to be a townslip, yet which just comes across as being forced.

[NoticeMeSenpai]

Lovebirds is getting my first scumlean. 139 is voting the BP probably IC because they claimed it and were worried about why Hatred wouldn't want the Ture Love thing given to them. Jaestina would never just claim that willy-nilly so there's obviously another reason for it, and I think their concern with Hatred was reasonable!
Continuing to read.
- Ari

This is also very direct and one-dimensional of Aristophanes.

When Aristophanes is town, he's indirect, he's a little chaotic and random and yet in that randomness there's an order, where you can see depth of his dimensions. You come to understand his process and how he comes across as obtaining multiple conclusions with solid bases. And yet here, he's just a one-note player.

[NoticeMeSenpai]

3) apparently outrageous claims are standard for mastina

Yes.
As town.
Never once as scum.

I'm by-the-book that way because outrageous claims don't help me as scum; they hurt me.
Outrageous claims help me as town more often than they do not.

Though in this case our claim wasn't so much outrageous as it was spurned from us only telling

half

the truth. Yes we're bulletproof, but we're ALSO a friendly neighbor, and we wanted to up-play the former in order to hide the latter. Which I maintain was the best play to make given the circumstances. I also maintain the full-reveal given the circumstance of our D1 lynch is

also

the best play given the circumstances.

[NoticeMeSenpai]

And yet here, he's just a one-note player.

And it's definitely not F♯

(this was Jae I'm sorry I couldn't keep it to the hydra PT)

[NoticeMeSenpai]

And yet here, he's just a one-note player.

And it's definitely not F♯

(this was Jae I'm sorry I couldn't keep it to the hydra PT)

I mean my joke was me, the post it quotes is mastina obvs.... but if ppl can't tell me from her at this point idunno what to say.

[NoticeMeSenpai]

(Literally I've never once fakeclaimed as scum save a

single

game. I've played how many scumgames in my time on here? 50? 70? Somewhere in that range because I've got somewhere in the range of 300 total games. In that time. 100% of games, save a single mini modded by Oversoul, the one and ONLY time in my mafia history I have fakeclaimed. I've basically claimed my real role, just as its town equivalent. I AM known for fakeclaims...but only as town because nope, the thought just never occurs to me to fakeclaim as scum. I'll track down literally every scumgame I've ever played to prove it if you doubt my word. Once. Only once, in all games across all time. Only once have I fakeclaimed. Because I don't win games that way as scum. Really it's not a skill I have because I am too cautious. I'm too methodical. Fakeclaims carry an inherent risk of a counterclaim. Fakeclaims carry an inherent risk of someone correctly calling bullshit. Realclaims however...are real. And thus less susceptible to being called bullshit. "The best lie is the truth", as it were, is the guiding philosophy of my scumplay.)

[NoticeMeSenpai]

I still don't get how you go from "bullet proof IC" to scum
They provided reasoning as to why they believe it'd be in the game, and it sounds pretty fucking nice to have.
So 2+?=4
where is the last 2 that makes it scummy?

This is also very much not an interaction which looks at all scum-scum.
Especially given Ginngie was a strongman and thus they'd have good reason to believe IN a bulletproof IC being a real role in the game. (Strongman makes a nice deterrent to the BP/IC combo.)

[NoticeMeSenpai]

mastina is in this game
I know little about them but I know enough to expect a gambit or crazy ploy every once in awhile

And your lack of knowledge shows if you think I would EVER gambit as scum.

My scumplay relies on the route of least resistance.
I direct towns to the townlynch of least resistance--this is how I save scumbuddies; this is how I keep towns from lynching me.
I use the claim of least resistance--if I do in fact fakeclaim, it will only be by using the mod-provided safeclaim.
I use the circumstances of least resistance--I craft the most believable narrative there is, and utilize it effectively.

I maybe have at times done something like claimed jailkeeper as a roleblocker--you know, a pretty standard modification of a claim. Where you're still not exactly lying, but are telling the truth. Something more real than fake. Something which can be proven and which can be made natural as a result.

But mostly I just claim VT because that's my real role, at least its equivalent.

And as town I tend to also not make fakeclaims just for the trollz.
I'm not going to fakeclaim as a VT ever. No matter what. Not once. No role is worth fakeclaiming as a VT. Unless of course I'm coordinating with a player. (For instance I could as a VT claim another town player's role, but only if this is something we have obviously set up.)
I do fakeclaim mason as a neighborhood.
That's the kind of gambit I make.

And I do that sort of stunt.
That's how I go about things.
In the way which makes the most sense.

[NoticeMeSenpai]

This post sounds like they 100% believe Jaestina was telling the truth about their role, and bludgeoning your skepticism. It has a scum vibe to it.

(It is for that very same reason their interaction with Lovebirds makes me think Lovebirds isn't scum because it has that same vibe you speak about. Not scum-scum.)

[NoticeMeSenpai]

Oh hey cool this is a thing. I could see myself voting Sword tomorrow, and I'm feeling even more confident in Scott and Ramona town. Scott and Ramona, who are your biggest townreads right now? Also, did anyone claim who made this night-talk? That's undoubtedly a town role, right?

-Clumsy

Why do you assume this is a role-related mechanic?
Do you think the not being able to unvote D1 was role-related? If so, what do you think about no one claiming to be the reason for that?

[NoticeMeSenpai]

Oh hey cool this is a thing. I could see myself voting Sword tomorrow, and I'm feeling even more confident in Scott and Ramona town. Scott and Ramona, who are your biggest townreads right now? Also, did anyone claim who made this night-talk? That's undoubtedly a town role, right?

-Clumsy

Why do you assume this is a role-related mechanic?
Do you think the not being able to unvote D1 was role-related? If so, what do you think about no one claiming to be the reason for that?

^ Add in the marriage mechanic too, because that goes in the same vein as what I'm getting at here.
I think this is game related and not role-related. I'd be very surprised if Ari caused it like he claims to have.

[NoticeMeSenpai]

Ramona can you please weigh in on some of the reasons mastina was thinking it was more likely to be Sword over Lovebirds, and why you think it's not the case? I compiled stuff I'd like a response to in the spoiler below.

Spoiler: @Ramona

mariar is the only player which consistently fucks with my radar to the same level dunnstral does, so i can't wait for this
i don't like mariar tunneling jaestina so hard over their claim and true love request, especially when mariar mostly glazes over CP doing literally the exact same thing, just more subtle and sneaky (which is exactly how scum would go about it)
i don't really buy andrius' unconditional sheep of mariars read either? unless i'm missing something there?

how do you have sword of damocles so low when to my memory they've posted so little at this point in time? if imperium (who hadn't posted at this time) is a null read, how are you townreading CP and wtf is that damocles scumread?

slight pings on uzi and massive pings on cp

ohhhhh so this is what you were going for lol okay I see the ploy here.

I don't see the ploy exactly! Mind talking to me about it?

thisthisthis

So obviously this is a scum post. I'm cutting out some content which would further show it to be such because I don't need to tell you as much we literally have the slot flipped and thus know it already to be true.

But what I want to point out is that basically the entire playerlist here (save morph/Imperium) is being shaded, with one notable exception: the defense of Sword of Damocles.

I mean.
I know it's "easy".
I know that it normally isn't that easy.

But I really just think that, in this particular game. It really is that easy.

321 is also a bit of an empty, hollow post overall. None of the interactions really feel genuine. I'm especially not fond of the Devil Gear interaction.

i don't like mariar tunneling jaestina so hard over their claim and true love request, especially when mariar mostly glazes over CP doing literally the exact same thing, just more subtle and sneaky (which is exactly how scum would go about it)

It's not literally the exact same thing. CP was more vague and less emphatic, and they retracted what they said.

This felt like it was not an interaction they were intending to get anything from.

how do you have sword of damocles so low when to my memory they've posted so little at this point in time? if imperium (who hadn't posted at this time) is a null read, how are you townreading CP and wtf is that damocles scumread? slight pings on uzi and massive pings on cp

>Questions scumread on us when we'd only made 3 posts at the time
>"Massive pings" on CP who's only made 2 posts so far

This interaction would be all fine and dandy and all that...
...If there were actually some backing behind it. At this time, Sword of Damocles wasn't voting anyone--if this were something they genuinely had an issue with, why not vote it?

258 is really weird. i really don't see why you're so sure that nms is lying? like at worst it could go either way, and at best i'm starting to think that it's probably the best thing we have going for us atm. hard to get my head around how you actually believe this, elaborate?

I'm actually interested in why you believe it. Claiming BP so you don't draw protectives is dumb and trying to outguess the setup the way they're doing is even dumber. (And even if they're right they almost certainly get killed by a strongman.) It doesn't strike me as a play Jae and mastina would make if they were being honest.

This one the problem isn't with the Devils Gear interaction (though that's not really the best either), but is more in the contradiction in thought process behind the first half (dumb town given strongman) and the second half. Also once again for emphasis. We now know there was in fact a strongman in the game. This reads as Sword of Damocles being ready to justify our flip when it would happen.

@Damocles

1. CP was vague and emphatic, sure. This is exactly what I meant by they're being more subtle. CP hadn't retracted their offer when Mariar had made her post.
2. Your 3 posts were entirely NAI, whereas CP's posts were meaty and content filled.
3A. Claiming BP to not draw protectives isn't dumb, especially if you think you'll get IC before night.
3B. You're putting a lot of stock into there being a strongman. What leads you to believe that there is? Sure, bulletproof IC is very powerful, but you have to remember they need to actually get us to use true love on them for it to work, which is hard to get past any town composition, really. We sure aren't going to let it just sit there, right? This is better than anything else we have, and if it doesn't mod confirm IC them, we can always verify their bulletproof claim with a vig shot, which is probably one of the better ways to spend a vig shot in that situation IMO.
3C. Sure, scum could have information on what True Love does, but I'm not sure how that changes anything. I'm fairly sure it's probably positive regardless of alignment?

322 and 333

@Clumsy Phoenix

I wasn't saying your post was particularly subtle and sneaky by itself, I was saying that it's -more- subtle and sneaky than the way Jaestina is doing it.

Don't try and frame my argument into being something it isn't.

And your townread on Scott and Ramona, why? "Feels like town LUV"

I'd like to contrast these two. Beyond looking at how thorough and meticulous the interaction with Sword of Damocles is (because it's fake) compared to how short the Clumsy Phoenix interaction is (because it's sincere), read also the difference in tone between the two.

To Clumsy Phoenix's accusations, Devils Gear felt slighted, felt offended--there was emotion behind it. The "right for the wrong reasons", kind, the "we're scum but we're not scum for THAT!" feeling of objection to the points against them. The bolded in particular is what I'm talking about here.

To Sword of Damocles's accusations, it was basically a by-the-book reading, as if reading off of a script: the definition of scum theater. There is no emotion behind that interaction.

I'm glad you're also scumreading Jaestina for similar reasons as Mariar because I was starting to worry I'd have to actually ask Mariar about it which terrifies me.

I do appreciate your more direct way of speaking, but don't worry about it too much my dude. I wasn't being too serious earlier, and the mixup on 'what are you interested' was just grammatical.

For what it's worth I don't feel like this was a scum-scum interaction. Why would you be terrified of interacting with your scumbuddy? Why would you even fake being terrified of interacting with your scumbuddy? It just felt like something which was real and not something that was a lie.

Burning hatred

mentioned I'm being passive, yeah I'm being super passive atm, I'm feeling a little bummed on this game and on mafia in general tbh. It's my fault, I'm working on it.
Clumsy Phoenix should have insight on one of the contributing factors why, but that's not all.
Andrius can confirm that I have issues reading Clumsy, he modded Darkest Dungeon mafia.

All of these read as attempting to get town to defend them and not getting a scumbuddy to intervene on their behalf. The whole post is obviously a scum one but none of the interactions within (the attack on Scott/Ramona, the indifference on Clumsy Phoenix while simultaneously looking to be defended by them, etc.) look like they're scum-about-scum.

I still don't get how you go from "bullet proof IC" to scum
They provided reasoning as to why they believe it'd be in the game, and it sounds pretty fucking nice to have.
So 2+?=4
where is the last 2 that makes it scummy?

This is also very much not an interaction which looks at all scum-scum.
Especially given Ginngie was a strongman and thus they'd have good reason to believe IN a bulletproof IC being a real role in the game. (Strongman makes a nice deterrent to the BP/IC combo.)

[NoticeMeSenpai]

Do you think Ari would risk the possibility of being counterclaimed?

I think it's quite clear that he wouldn't be, because I'm pretty sure it's just a game mechanic rather than a role related one.
And if so, there's a possibility that scum know that much and therefore know they can try to pull some bs by fakeclaiming a game mechanic as their role.
And it'll likely become even moreso obvious when we go into the next phase where I'm thinking there'll be another mechanic or two in place.

[NoticeMeSenpai]

Like, to be counterclaimed someone has to have the role that he's claiming.
What I think is that the night-talk is part of some phase mechanic that Alisae either had planned in advance or is drawing from a randomized pool for.

[NoticeMeSenpai]

I just don't think he should be given any passes for claiming to be the cause of night-talk when it looks suspiciously like that's just a game mechanics based thing.
Especially so given Ari said he'd read up and interact with the case against him like 12 hours ago now. He's just flat not going to and that's not a town!Ari, and I know everyone keeps harping on this drum but that's because it's true to his meta. He would have dropped some kind of thoughts in his most recent posting if he was town.

[NoticeMeSenpai]

'kay.
Why do you think it's a town role necessarily?

[NoticeMeSenpai]

Role != alignment.

[NoticeMeSenpai]

That doesn't mean it's a town role. You can assign a role like that after alignments are randomized.

He could be compulsive. It could be to feed paranoia during the night and have it fester. It could be for the sheer wifom of "would this be a scum role"?

Ari by

play

is scum. Fuck his role. To be a town role it'd have to be attached to a town-aligned role PM and it's not. Because this is not Ari as town.
I even shot through the posts where he claimed that and then said he'd read up with the note that he never posted since then. Know what she said?
"Yeah that's scum-Ari through-and-through."

[NoticeMeSenpai]

Message from mastina: .
SCUM WOULDN'T USE THEIR MOD-GIVEN POWER IS AN ABSOLUTE TERRIBLE ARGUMENT BECAUSE THAT'S EXACTLY WHY SCUM WOULD USE IT: GETTING DESPERATELY-NEEDED TOWNCRED.
Like. Sword of Damocles is the de factor lynch tomorrow--what does that give Sword of Damocles incentive to do?
Do something to make themselves not look like scum.
But it's a cheap trick.
Because roles. !=. alignment.

[NoticeMeSenpai]

Also from mastina:
What risk is there to Sword of Damocles using this power? None--they're already the de factor lynch for tomorrow and so they have LITERALLY NOTHING TO LOSE. They can't get worse.
What reward is there to Sword of Damocles using this power--gee, I wonder, maybe, oh, you know...AVOIDING THEIR STATUS AS THE LYNCH FOR TOMORROW.
There is no risk. There is great reward. Therefore. There is no reason Sword of Damocles /wouldn't/ trigger it.

[NoticeMeSenpai]

I'd advise you to take Ari's personality into account and consider this gambit is too balls to the walls for him. Please lay out why Ari is scum and not based on meta for Ramona.

You don't get to have your cake and eat it too.
Either listen to our fucking meta or discard the idea of personality. You don't get to pick and choose there.

Jae can handle the quotes for a case prolly regardless of which you choose though.

[NoticeMeSenpai]

Ramona can you please weigh in on some of the reasons mastina was thinking it was more likely to be Sword over Lovebirds, and why you think it's not the case? I compiled stuff I'd like a response to in the spoiler below.

Spoiler: @Ramona

mariar is the only player which consistently fucks with my radar to the same level dunnstral does, so i can't wait for this
i don't like mariar tunneling jaestina so hard over their claim and true love request, especially when mariar mostly glazes over CP doing literally the exact same thing, just more subtle and sneaky (which is exactly how scum would go about it)
i don't really buy andrius' unconditional sheep of mariars read either? unless i'm missing something there?

how do you have sword of damocles so low when to my memory they've posted so little at this point in time? if imperium (who hadn't posted at this time) is a null read, how are you townreading CP and wtf is that damocles scumread?

slight pings on uzi and massive pings on cp

ohhhhh so this is what you were going for lol okay I see the ploy here.

I don't see the ploy exactly! Mind talking to me about it?

thisthisthis

So obviously this is a scum post. I'm cutting out some content which would further show it to be such because I don't need to tell you as much we literally have the slot flipped and thus know it already to be true.

But what I want to point out is that basically the entire playerlist here (save morph/Imperium) is being shaded, with one notable exception: the defense of Sword of Damocles.

I mean.
I know it's "easy".
I know that it normally isn't that easy.

But I really just think that, in this particular game. It really is that easy.

321 is also a bit of an empty, hollow post overall. None of the interactions really feel genuine. I'm especially not fond of the Devil Gear interaction.

i don't like mariar tunneling jaestina so hard over their claim and true love request, especially when mariar mostly glazes over CP doing literally the exact same thing, just more subtle and sneaky (which is exactly how scum would go about it)

It's not literally the exact same thing. CP was more vague and less emphatic, and they retracted what they said.

This felt like it was not an interaction they were intending to get anything from.

how do you have sword of damocles so low when to my memory they've posted so little at this point in time? if imperium (who hadn't posted at this time) is a null read, how are you townreading CP and wtf is that damocles scumread? slight pings on uzi and massive pings on cp

>Questions scumread on us when we'd only made 3 posts at the time
>"Massive pings" on CP who's only made 2 posts so far

This interaction would be all fine and dandy and all that...
...If there were actually some backing behind it. At this time, Sword of Damocles wasn't voting anyone--if this were something they genuinely had an issue with, why not vote it?

258 is really weird. i really don't see why you're so sure that nms is lying? like at worst it could go either way, and at best i'm starting to think that it's probably the best thing we have going for us atm. hard to get my head around how you actually believe this, elaborate?

I'm actually interested in why you believe it. Claiming BP so you don't draw protectives is dumb and trying to outguess the setup the way they're doing is even dumber. (And even if they're right they almost certainly get killed by a strongman.) It doesn't strike me as a play Jae and mastina would make if they were being honest.

This one the problem isn't with the Devils Gear interaction (though that's not really the best either), but is more in the contradiction in thought process behind the first half (dumb town given strongman) and the second half. Also once again for emphasis. We now know there was in fact a strongman in the game. This reads as Sword of Damocles being ready to justify our flip when it would happen.

@Damocles

1. CP was vague and emphatic, sure. This is exactly what I meant by they're being more subtle. CP hadn't retracted their offer when Mariar had made her post.
2. Your 3 posts were entirely NAI, whereas CP's posts were meaty and content filled.
3A. Claiming BP to not draw protectives isn't dumb, especially if you think you'll get IC before night.
3B. You're putting a lot of stock into there being a strongman. What leads you to believe that there is? Sure, bulletproof IC is very powerful, but you have to remember they need to actually get us to use true love on them for it to work, which is hard to get past any town composition, really. We sure aren't going to let it just sit there, right? This is better than anything else we have, and if it doesn't mod confirm IC them, we can always verify their bulletproof claim with a vig shot, which is probably one of the better ways to spend a vig shot in that situation IMO.
3C. Sure, scum could have information on what True Love does, but I'm not sure how that changes anything. I'm fairly sure it's probably positive regardless of alignment?

322 and 333

@Clumsy Phoenix

I wasn't saying your post was particularly subtle and sneaky by itself, I was saying that it's -more- subtle and sneaky than the way Jaestina is doing it.

Don't try and frame my argument into being something it isn't.

And your townread on Scott and Ramona, why? "Feels like town LUV"

I'd like to contrast these two. Beyond looking at how thorough and meticulous the interaction with Sword of Damocles is (because it's fake) compared to how short the Clumsy Phoenix interaction is (because it's sincere), read also the difference in tone between the two.

To Clumsy Phoenix's accusations, Devils Gear felt slighted, felt offended--there was emotion behind it. The "right for the wrong reasons", kind, the "we're scum but we're not scum for THAT!" feeling of objection to the points against them. The bolded in particular is what I'm talking about here.

To Sword of Damocles's accusations, it was basically a by-the-book reading, as if reading off of a script: the definition of scum theater. There is no emotion behind that interaction.

I'm glad you're also scumreading Jaestina for similar reasons as Mariar because I was starting to worry I'd have to actually ask Mariar about it which terrifies me.

I do appreciate your more direct way of speaking, but don't worry about it too much my dude. I wasn't being too serious earlier, and the mixup on 'what are you interested' was just grammatical.

For what it's worth I don't feel like this was a scum-scum interaction. Why would you be terrified of interacting with your scumbuddy? Why would you even fake being terrified of interacting with your scumbuddy? It just felt like something which was real and not something that was a lie.

Burning hatred

mentioned I'm being passive, yeah I'm being super passive atm, I'm feeling a little bummed on this game and on mafia in general tbh. It's my fault, I'm working on it.
Clumsy Phoenix should have insight on one of the contributing factors why, but that's not all.
Andrius can confirm that I have issues reading Clumsy, he modded Darkest Dungeon mafia.

All of these read as attempting to get town to defend them and not getting a scumbuddy to intervene on their behalf. The whole post is obviously a scum one but none of the interactions within (the attack on Scott/Ramona, the indifference on Clumsy Phoenix while simultaneously looking to be defended by them, etc.) look like they're scum-about-scum.

I still don't get how you go from "bullet proof IC" to scum
They provided reasoning as to why they believe it'd be in the game, and it sounds pretty fucking nice to have.
So 2+?=4
where is the last 2 that makes it scummy?

This is also very much not an interaction which looks at all scum-scum.
Especially given Ginngie was a strongman and thus they'd have good reason to believe IN a bulletproof IC being a real role in the game. (Strongman makes a nice deterrent to the BP/IC combo.)

[NoticeMeSenpai]

Like, I already did this compiled in a neat place for her to engage me on the points and discuss them.
It's really frustrating that you're saying to do so when I specifically picked out posts that weren't based on Ari's meta, because it shows that you didn't check what those quotes were at all.

[NoticeMeSenpai]

You're free to read it too and discuss.

I only addressed it to Ramona because she was the one that seemed set on Sword being town.

[NoticeMeSenpai]

I'd advise you to take Ari's personality into account and consider this gambit is too balls to the walls for him. Please lay out why Ari is scum and not based on meta for Ramona.

You don't get to have your cake and eat it too.
Either listen to our fucking meta or discard the idea of personality. You don't get to pick and choose there.

^Basically you're being a fucking hypocrite here and you should know it. Saying Aristophanes doesn't have the personality to pull this gambit is doing fucking meta. Yet you're asking for us to not use meta???

You're also failing to factor in a critical part: this isn't just Aristophanes. This is also Something_smart. Even IF this is a gambit that Aristophanes wouldn't pull--is it a gambit that Something_smart would ALSO not pull? Because unless you can confidently say yes, then guess what? It doesn't even have to be his call.

Sword of Damocles is scum on every level.
Sword of Damocles's interactions with flipped scum reek of scum-scum.
Flipped scum's interactions with Sword of Damocles reek of scum-scum.
This is Aristophanes's scum meta. Time and time again we've explained this.
We've shown why Sword of Damocles's posting--

even disregarding meta

, even throwing out that really valuable tool, is still fucking scum thanks to all the shitty content within.
We've explained why this is a move which is not alignment indicative because they have incentive to do it as both town and scum.
And we've also explained why Sword of Damocles FAILING ALL OTHER FACTORS AND TECHNIQUES would

still

be scum by POE.

Do you want us to list the Imperium/morph townreads or do you doubt them?
How about Burning Hatred? Any morsel of scum in GIF there?
Okay, how about Clumsy Phoenix? We've explained why we see them as town.
And Lovebirds, we've also explained why we think they're town.

Literally the whole game is town except Sword of Damocles.
Because they're just fucking scum.
Don't go try to be a hero and lol-lynch a town player just because of some shitty arbitrary decision you made of what scum CAN'T do.

[NoticeMeSenpai]

I'm saying I don't think scum would be given the power (usually).

Role != alignment.

But it's a cheap trick.
Because roles. !=. alignment.

Also, let me ask you this.

If you saw a Loud Fruit Vendor role in a game.

What alignment would you attribute to it?
This is a Fruit Vendor (visitor), who has their name known to be visiting.

Is that a power you would think scum would be given?

Serious question here.

If you want to lynch Sword of Damocles that's good. If you want to make backup plans for a potential townflip, that's also reasonable; we've done nothing different. But don't go supporting the opposition because that's exactly what doesn't need to be done.

Also I'll keep in mind the role != alignment thing next time I see a Mason. Or Miller. Or Godfather. Or cop, Parity Cop, and all variants in non multiball. Or Innocent Child. Or Friendly Neighbor. Or Serial Killer. Or Masonizer. Or Weak-X in non multiball. Or Cult Leader. Or Traitor. Or Desperado. Or Saulus. Or Judas. Or Framers. Or Tailors.

Masons/Masonizers/Innocent Child/Friendly Neighbor/Cult Leader/Serial Killer/Traitor(/Saulus/Judas) are all roles which are specific to an alignment because they fundamentally cannot work without a different alignment.

But yes, actually.
Millers, Godfathers, Cops, Parity Cops, Weak-X, Framers, Tailors, and even Desperados are in fact not roles = alignment. They all have an alignment they are more typically going to be, yes. And in games lacking multiball they mostly lack a point if in an alignment not the standard. But they do in fact exist. So place your strawman elsewhere; I've no interest in it.

[NoticeMeSenpai]

I don't know Ari well but from his posting in forums not dedicated to mafia, I feel I have a good understanding of his personality.

The problem is that's outside the fucking game and that's something which you can't use personality on.

I'm a completely different animal outside of games (well for the most part), so inside of games I have an entirely different aesthetic to me. I have a different personality. Because it's a different environment. I DO know Aristophanes. I have played many, many games with him and seen all aspects of him. And I'm telling you the idea of him not using a mod-given power as scum because the given power is pro-town is absolute shit. (After all. It's a mod-given power. If a mod gives a fucking power to scum. Then the

mod intends the scum to use that power

. Even/especially if that power appears pro-town. Aristophanes would know this. He would trust in Alisae. Because Aristophanes holds a high level of trust. And part of that is that he'd have trust in it not backfiring.)

There's nothing about him which tells me that. Do I think it is something that is

scum-specifically

motivated?
No, I don't!
As town Aristophanes would use this power.
As scum Aristophanes would use this power.

As a result, the usage of the power is null, or NAI if you prefer the new lingo.

Yet you're discarding the latter in favor of the former for absolutely no reason aside from a shitty unreliable source.

I want to emphasis that you should comply with us and give Ramona a non-meta based case because she scum reads Lovebirds hard.

It's almost like you didn't read Jae's posts!

[NoticeMeSenpai]

Also Jae didn't want to make this point but fuckit once Jae said it then I was like "screw that I'm making this point".

Also, if we have a cop or the like, would it be a good idea to check the Bulletproof hydra? If we can clear them, that'd be a bulletproof IC day 2.

Jae specifically wanted to mention how the public flavor claim

didn't make us town by role to you

(Jae maaaaay have linked the wrong post not quite sure but I believe this is true anyway?), and yet now you think the

night-talk role is more likely town by role

.

They're rather miffed right now about it and I think it's something which should be said.

[NoticeMeSenpai]

Like.
The idea of "scum wouldn't have that role" is by and large,

incredibly subjective

.
The idea of "scum would never do that" is, aside from being a shitty idea,

entirely subjective

.

I'm exaggerating slightly because I don't want to launch into a long MD theory post explaining the nuances of these two concepts in detail because I'd be here literally all fucking night outlining exactly what I mean here when I am saying those things to by and large be true.

Don't fucking clear a player.
Off of shitty arbitrary assumptions. Off of something that surely can't be scum because you don't think it's scum. It's borderline circular logic.

If you want to fucking clear a player.
Then use hard facts.
If you want to fucking condemn a player.
Then use those hard facts.

And we've laid out the hard facts behind why Sword of Damocles is scum.
We've laid out hard facts for why every slot outside of Sword of Damocles is town--making them scum by POE.
We've laid out the interactions between flipped scum and Sword of Damocles and explained why they were scum interactions, giving contrast between scum's interactions with Sword and scum's interactions with other players,

and

contrast between Sword's interactions with other players compared to their interactions with scum.

We've laid out why Aristophanes is following his scum meta. We've explained what that scum meta is, and shown why his posting this game is following it.
We've also shown

individually bad points from the slot

. Hard facts about why they are scum even without meta, even without interactions, even without POE. Because of the content within their posts and what it focuses on and what it doesn't focus on and what they are giving or rather aren't giving.

There's no fucking angle we

haven't

given on why Sword of Damocles is scum.

This game can be a perfect town win.
But for it to be a perfect town win.
You have to swallow your sense of being a hero, of being bold with some gutread you feel like acting on in defiance of all fucking logic.
Because if we mislynch it will be because we didn't fucking lynch the obvious scum thanks to whatever ridiculous reason you cook up for sparing Sword of Damocles.

[NoticeMeSenpai]

Also I'll keep in mind the role != alignment thing next time I see a Mason. Or Miller. Or Godfather. Or cop, Parity Cop, and all variants in non multiball. Or Innocent Child. Or Friendly Neighbor. Or Serial Killer. Or Masonizer. Or Weak-X in non multiball. Or Cult Leader. Or Traitor. Or Desperado. Or Saulus. Or Judas. Or Framers. Or Tailors.

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That game had a Mafia Watcher and a Mafia Odd-Night Gunsmith.
What would you normally think when someone claims Watcher or Odd-Night Gunsmith?