Micro 735: Greater Idea (Day 2 Begins)
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she*In post 27, vonflare wrote: Like, this post is just so bad. Not only is he using setup spec to try to deflect away from actual scumhunting but also is just going straight for the strongest discard when optimal play is obviously to leave the strongest discard until day 2.
And I don't know when optimal play was decided, but I don't think I got CCed in. Why would that be the case?
I was working off the wiki page on the setup, which says it "almost entirely removes the need for random votes". I'm not a wizard, it was just me and Sparkles in the game so far, so I went for the only bit of information I had to do my scumhunting.
I imagine it's much easier when you wait until there's a wagon to jump onto-
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Um... thanks?In post 55, Creature wrote:Joined this game because I expected the playerlist to not be regrettable.-
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Nah. I understand the decision. There's plenty of good reasons to not want that role that don't necessarily include being scum.In post 52, vonflare wrote:keychain do you still think sparkles is scum?
Also
This assumption is totally false.In post 30, vonflare wrote: the sparkles situation is self-resolving. He discarded a powerful town role so either he has:
A) an even stronger town role
B) a scum role
Why is Sparkles lynchbait? Like is he generally lynchbaity or something or is it due to the discard?-
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Interesting. But if he likes playing mafia/teamscum (is there a term for this?) more than he likes SK, he might have picked it anyway.In post 73, Chickadee wrote: From my experience playing with creature, he hates rolling scum and is disinterested. Given the choice, as he very well could have been in this set-up, I believe he'd pick town.
UNVOTE:
VOTE: WhyMafia
Unnecessarily defensive on the hammer comment. Srceenplay and Chickadee are coming across well though.-
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Um. Wow. I'm a wee bit stunned after that. That is some serious maths. Do the results lead you to any further opinions on the players?
Welcome back. I also tend towards longer, more infrequent posts, but I've started mobile posting a lot more.Kairyuu wrote:Also, as this is my first game back following a roughly 5 year absence I fully expect to have little to no meta-knowledge regarding current play trends. My limited perusal of MD basically tells me that I should be expecting a lot of short multi-posting, but that's about it. In that vein, do not expect this from me. I come from a time of text walls and, so when I have the time, that's what I intend to post, and I probably have the time for at least a while.-
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I'm sorry you what?In post 99, vonflare wrote: purpose of the vote was to put keychain at L-1.
I thought, from your apology, it was a mistake of counting and so let it slide, they happen.
But you knew you were doing it and you thought it was in the interests of town to not announce it, and leave it open for someone to accidentally hammer on page 1? You werethat surefrom my three posts? That is the least townie thing I've ever heard.
UNVOTE:
VOTE: vonflare-
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With that in mind:
Why?In post 106, WhyMafia wrote:I TR Von-
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It's also a good starting point for town. What were you going to do if no one did? Because I could also argue that your strategy is also a good one for scum - to wait until someone uses the only information available, then to jump on them.
It is ambiguous - you apologised for not announcing it but you left the reasoning to be inferred. That's the ambiguity.In post 119, vonflare wrote:
In fact, the wording is not ambiguous. You are misrepping me more than anythingIn post 23, vonflare wrote: Also sorry for not announcing L1
I saw it as "sorry because I didn't realise".
You say it's "sorry because I thought it was obvious".-
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Because it was accurate, or something else?In post 123, Creature wrote:I guess it's 73.
More on why he was the nextest scumread please.Creature wrote:I switched my vote to the nextest scumread after she posted something.-
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Kairyuu can only post infrequently, as he stated in his initial post, so he already had time to gauge responses. And "why did you do that" was a pretty standard question after that maths wall, I asked it as well in 89.In post 133, WhyMafia wrote:waiting for Kairyuu to answer
Do you think that Kairyuu changed his answer to your question because of Vax's interference? I don't. Seems an odd direction to be looking for scum, when the only reason it would incriminate Vax is by being in the same faction as Kairyuu and also not believing Kairyuu had enough information to suitably respond to your question - both of which are kind of a stretch.
If I wasn't already so happy with my vote being on vonflare, it would be back on you, my friend. Your scumhunting is symbolic at best.
@Vax: Please still answer WM's question!-
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It wasn't intended as a defense of Kairyuu so much as an attack on WM. WM asked a question of Kairyuu to flesh out a potential scumread. This is good and useful. Vax asked von a question, also regarding Kairyuu. This is good and useful. Then instead of following up on his own question, WM FOSes Vax for also asking questions to advance the game. This is bad and doesn't make sense.In post 136, Chickadee wrote:@Keychain - why are you jumping to defend them?
I mean, you might as well be asking me why I'm leaping to Vax's defense.
Stalling the game by trying to inhibit discussion - which is what you did, by suggesting that the topic should be not spoken about until Kairyuu responded - is a tactic that only benefits scum.In post 137, WhyMafia wrote: It's a stretch yes, but I still wanted to gauge comments and reactions. The game seems to be stalling at the moment after all. It still sidesteps the question of why he felt the need to interfere with something I was pursuing. It's a weak correlation, but something that pinged me and that I took note of. How else should I be looking for scum? If there's not much in the game, one should dig deeper.
Why would you FOS someone for asking a related question instead of following up on that thing that pinged you about Kairyuu and the answer he gave?Thatwould be digging deeper and I'm not sure why you haven't done it.
This is fair though.WhyMafia wrote: Well you made no indication that you were actively on to something. Asking why someone did something doesn't have to come from town trying to find scum. It can be the simple question of what's the point from curiosity's standpoint.
Regarding being jittery - I am kind of a jittery person in general, but I think you might be referring my attempts to get the game out of this slow point? It worked, though. Three unique people responded in under half an hour!-
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Wait, missed this the first time I read it.
There are multiple potential factions in play. Chick being in one of them does not preclude Creature from belonging to another, so she wouldn't necessarily know his alignment. Does this change your interpretation at all?In post 131, Srceenplay wrote: I didn't like Chicks Town read on Creature.
I'm not saying I don't agree with the reasoning but it felt premature.
It seemed like someone knowing who is Town and trying to explain away why they know that.-
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PEdit: Whoa hey, sorry for two text walls in a row guys.
I'm referring to posts 135, 136 and 137 in response to my 134, not sure what you're talking about? I mean I realise I was slightly wrong with my half hour thing, your post was actually two minutes outside, but I wouldn't call that a blatant lie.In post 140, WhyMafia wrote: IDK, but this is giving me huge scum pings. Why are you looking to get town cred like that? You are blatantly lying. The only person who you got to respond to Creature, and even then, it was something that you didn't follow up on/it didn't make a huge impact. It's just making people look at you at a more positive light
And an active game is a good game for everyone. Do you really think people gave me towncred, when you did the opposite?
Indeed, here we are, with this great discussion going onWhyMafia wrote: Now you're twisting my words. I never said for people to not discuss Kairyuu, I never even said not to discuss anything. I just found it slightly scummy that Kairyuu was subtly being given a way out. In fact, it gave me more things to judge for reads, and look where we are now
My goodness I'm a serial word twister / misrepper, my apologies. What I mean regarding not discussing Kairyuu is that I found Vax's question to be so unrelated to your question - like the only thing it had in common was that it also mentioned Kairyuu's super long post, it wasn't even addressed to you or Kairyuu - that it seemed that you were trying to shut down that topic.
I'm not subtly telling you to reread anything, I'm asking why you dropped it when he answered.WhyMafia wrote: I'm not sure if you're trying to waste our time by going back on previous content. You're subtly telling me to re-read his post, but a lack of a subsequent reply to his reply showcases that I wasn't bothered, does it not? In case it didn't, I found his response to be towny.
No, it does not, the conclusion I came to was that you'd abandoned that line of investigation for no reason. Thanks for clearing it up. You're right in that I did a similar thing with Creature, though I just wanted him to elaborate a bit more and you were following up on a scum ping so I was expecting an update on that.
It's not really "previous content" at this point - Kairyuu's most recent post was the one in which he answered your question, and you in fact reached further back for your FOS.
Do you think that you found Kairyuu's response townybecauseof Vax's interference? Like Vax actually did give Kairyuu an out? If so, your reaction makes a lot more sense.
I don't know Creature (I don't knowvonflare wrote:keychain what's your opinion of chick's townread on creatureanyof you) but while he had posted a bit as of her read, none of it had really been tremendously game-relevant. Just some setup spec and talk about discards, some pressure on us to not be regrettable/boring, and a naked vote on Chick herself. It doesn't really sound like activity. And while knowing his preference for town is useful, it would have been much stronger if his discard had been town. So I think the read itself is weak. But the way she said it sounded genuine, like she was really trying to start somewhere. I'd like to see how her read on him evolves from that starting point.-
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@Kairyuu, while you're writing:
Is this backwards? Creature moved his vote off Chick after her townread of him, suggesting he thought it was towny. Though in saying that, that's really odd, because in that case it's like she pulled out a townread of him because he voted her and he thought that was fine.In post 143, Kairyuu wrote:
Could you elaborate on this? What about the timing struck you as odd, and what made you think it was scummy?Being accurate isn't the factor to be town, it's more the time of use (of the read).
Disagree. There are differences in types of roles as well. Players might have preferences between investigative, protective, killing and so on, in a way that can't be simplified down to just picking the strongest.Kairyuu wrote: Specifically, as town, discarding a town power role indicates that the other role offered must be stronger or of a different alignment. Otherwise you weaken your own faction.
You seem to think along similar lines to me, which makes me paranoid. I'm going to go and see whether the posts you've madebeforeme have been just as similar to what I've been thinking.-
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thisvonflare wrote:creature plz
@Creature: Everything game relevant you have said recently has been in direct answer to a question. That's too easy. So this is a direct invitation to be more proactive. I'm trying not to ask a question, since that's what you've been coasting off.
So in your next post. Say somethingusefulthat wasn't explicitly asked for.
(please)
Though yeah, lurkers need to get back here. Sparkles and Vax appear to have dropped off the face of the earth. WM's not so bad though, and Srceen's prodge was so early it was more of a V/LA announcement.
@Kairyuu: I've gone back and read through your posts (this is indeed a thing I try and do). There is at least one instance of you saying something I was thinking before I did (regarding Creature's activity, that Chick was townreading him off, being mostly empty), which suggests it's probably that I respond faster than you. You're right in that we don't agree on everything.
But you don't seem to be engaging with me as much as I'd expect. You townread me early on for having similar reasoning, but to be honest there's been very little evaluation of what I've said beyond that. Like at all. I can see a tiny little bit in 146, maybe, but I'd expect more, considering the questions you've been posing to others. Can you explain?
@Chickadee:
???Chickadee wrote:
This line of inquiry just doesn't interest me. I'm having trouble staying focused on it, because it bores me so much.In post 143, Kairyuu wrote:You've entirely avoided my actual question to focus on an opinion I expressed alongside it. Once again, how would adding to Keychain's wagon at the time make a player appear to be scumhunting? This is the crux of my issue with your post.
I mean, yeah it's not a great question, but what is this response??
If we only speak when spoken to, this game will never happen. Sounds like it could be fun though as a mechanic - everyone starts off with a statement and then must address a question to one other player. From then on, people can only post in answer to a question, before posing a question of their own.Chickadee wrote:
My point was really more that Keychain hadn't been addressed at all.In post 146, Kairyuu wrote:What am I being defended from precisely? WhyMafia wasn't even addressing me. He asked me a question yesterday, which I also answered yesterday, and was then addressing Vax today.
Basically I thought WM's behaviour was scummy so I went after it. I didn't think I needed to be addressed to be allowed to do that.
But in case that's why you've been standing off to one side, I'll address you:
You are not voting anyone currently, and you've also never voted anyone, and you also haven't really taken too much of a stance at all and we're more than halfway through the day. We need a lynch. Who is your top pick for scum, Chick? What about town?-
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(important bit bolded)In post 157, Keychain wrote: @Creature: Everything game relevant you have said recently has been in direct answer to a question. That's too easy. So this is a direct invitation to be more proactive.I'm trying not to ask a question, since that's what you've been coasting off.
So in your next post. Say somethingusefulthat wasn't explicitly asked for.
(Creature dodges)Creature wrote:
If you mean making giant walls, forget it.In post 157, Keychain wrote:Say something useful that wasn't explicitly asked for.
(Keychain follows up)Keychain wrote:Nah. Nice try.
I can think of a number of posts as short as three words that I'd be happy with. No walls necessary.
Go on. Offer a game-relevant opinion.
(WM asks question of Creature, thereby giving him an out)In post 160, WhyMafia wrote:
So why do you town read others? You're complaining about so called "lurkers" yet you've just skated byIn post 152, Creature wrote:
Null-scum. Even if he was null, sometimes I would treat nullreads as scumreads if I had multiple townreads.In post 143, Kairyuu wrote:Does this mean your read on him was null, or scum? If null, why does that deserve a vote? If scum, what made you think that?
(remember that time when WM accused someone of interfering with something)In post 133, WhyMafia wrote: @Vax why did you ask Von this when I stated in the previous post that I was waiting for Kairyuu to answer? It gave him time to see what others thought about the wall and post something that would look good. FoS
Friend
Do you realise what you haff done
Also
I'm not sure what you're getting at here - like what do you mean, scumread by my own scumread? - but do you think I'd point the multiball setup out to Srceen if I'd forgotten it myself?WhyMafia wrote: I mean you said that in response to my comment. Why would you care about being scum read by your own scum read? Seems fishy, as if you know I'm town. You'd have had to forget that there are other anti-town factions though .. which might've happened considering you skipped mafia goon.
Though I suppose I could have remembered it, since it did happen in 139 whereas you're talking about something earlier.
Basically I don't quite understand this post, do you mind rephrasing it?-
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If you go to vonflare's ISO and ctrl+F "keychain", you get a similar result!vonflare wrote:^I got these by ISO screenplay and ctrl+F "whymafia"
he mentions him 8 times. 3 are quotes, 1 is a vote, and these quoted posts are the other 4 times.
What.Srceenplay wrote:I didn't say anything about having a case.
Would you two (and everyone, really) mind reiterating their favourite lynch for today, and providing the main reason why?
Mine is vonflare, because he thought that deliberately bringing someone to L-1 without announcing it, leaving the wagon open to accidental hammer, was a good idea. Then he doesn't seem to have done a lot since then outside of saying I am scum, repeatedly, with no further reasoning beyond not liking my second post in the game. There's been a couple questions, two mild reads on Creature (74) and Kairyuu (115) - though on reread 77 is kind of a puzzle, am I misreading it and is it actually a townread on Chick not Creature and also how does it make any sense? - but otherwise not a whole lot of contribution.
Also Vax you've got a bunch of questions waiting for you to answer when you have the time - if you want I can go and quote them all, that way you won't have an excuse to miss a single one!-
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You were already voting her. Chick and WhyM are the only two not voting. What did you not like about that post?
Actually, given this post:
WhyMafia, why aren't you voting me if I'm giving you "huge scum pings"?In post 140, WhyMafia wrote: IDK, but this is giving me huge scum pings. Why are you looking to get town cred like that? You are blatantly lying. The only person who you got to respond to Creature, and even then, it was something that you didn't follow up on/it didn't make a huge impact. It's just making people look at you at a more positive light
I'll accept that you don't vote needlessly, but I've been trying to generate some activity so I can get reads. I find it suspect that you haven't gotten anything solid out of the content it's produced, and even more so that you haven't done a lot toChickadee wrote: I tend to be a cautious voter. I vote when I'm ready, so don't rush me.
I'm TRing Creature and Vonflare and have a town lean on Screenplay.
For scum, I would be fine with you Keychain, you've been kind of off to me so far. Not seeing anything real solid yet.getsomething solid. Town is trying to find the answer. Scum already knows. It's scummy that you aren't trying to sort.
Can you elaborate on "kind of off"? What is your townread of Creature based on?-
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Actually, hmm. Thinking. I might have to revise that read of vonflare. If he was scum, once his L-1 had failed to get a quicklynch, it would have made more sense to pretend he hadn't realised to deflect attention. The honesty is towny, though could also be bold scum. For now, though:
UNVOTE:
I'm also liking WhyMafia more, his attempts at investigation are promising, but still keeping an eye on him because they don't quite make sense to me and seem to be a bit like grasping at straws.
It concerns me that Chickadee is not really doing anything. Creature as well, and Vax to a certain extent, but Chick's responses have been really subpar and it seems like she's content to let things go as they will. It feels uncomfortably like scum who like the direction town is heading in and don't want to get involved. Especially getting closer to the deadline.
VOTE: Chickadee
Chick! Help find the scum! You can hold off on voting until the final hour if you really really want, but can you do what you have to to get some solid reads?
(I continue to hope and pray that one day, Agent Sparkles will return to us...)-
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@Chick: Sorry to hear your life has been crazy recently! I hope things even out for you.
By "scum already knows", I mean they already know their partners, if any. Doesn't matter if it's multiball - as long as no partner is getting lynched they're totally cool with whatever lynch goes down whether it's town or other scum. That's the feel I'm getting from you. Town doesn't know who the other townies are and is trying to work it out. I'm not getting the impression of "trying to work it out" from you at all.
I mean, apart from the one you just flat out dropped because it was "boring", sure. I haven't fact checked this yet though. Do you want to ask any questions of your own?In post 188, Chickadee wrote:I feel like the only questions being asked of me are things I've already answered.
@Creature: I was happy with what you said (well, not happy, but it was a proactive statement) until I realised it was in response to WM's question do you have anything else, maybe?-
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Let's pretend they're both lynchers with each other as target. It still could be true. Never give up hope!In post 197, vonflare wrote:in an alternate reality this game is currently sparkles vs kairyuu and then we could make jokes about Kira VS L
For Vax:In post 121, Kairyuu wrote:
Can you elaborate on this a bit? Which posts and what do you mean by ringing off?I'm not as confident as chick with her creature read. I've played alot with creature too, but a few posts ring off to me this game.
...
Finally, could you do me a favor and comment on post 33 please? Why would you be calling for Srceenplay to claim in order to lynch him, especially that early?
These are the ones I could find.In post 133, WhyMafia wrote:
@Vax why did you ask Von this when I stated in the previous post that I was waiting for Kairyuu to answer? It gave him time to see what others thought about the wall and post something that would look good. FoSIn post 114, Vaxkiller wrote:
Do you find it AI?In post 111, vonflare wrote:no, this happens in every game of great idea and its variants. someone makes a giant wall of text explaining the probability of each role corresponding to each person, ultimately resulting in no important information due to WIFOM.
Also offering your thoughts on the game so far would be lovely, because that response gave you major townpoints from me but I need to see more from you.
Noted. But when you can:Creature wrote:Sorry, won't be able to do anything today.
Is this you deliberately playing your cards close to the chest or is this you just not really having any? Or something else?Creature wrote:idk, I can't really explain my reads rn.-
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Hi Mulch!
You started out so promising. Chick is a better vote than Sparkles right now.
@Creature:
This is the best question ever though it doesn't do wonders for you looking more proactive. Thoughts on Chick please. We have less than a day left and she is my favouritest lynch. AlsoCreature wrote:How can I help?In post 200, Keychain wrote:
Is this you deliberately playing your cards close to the chest or is this you just not really having any? Or something else?Creature wrote:idk, I can't really explain my reads rn.
@WhyMafia:
That back-and-forth ended more amicably than I expected. What did you reread and why did it change your mind so much? Seems suspicious that you'd just drop it after I switched my read on you.In post 205, WhyMafia wrote:I TR you rn though after I just re-read some stuff
@vonflare
her*vonflare wrote: hmmmm maybe the reason I 'shaded' it was the fact that I found his post scummy
And your case on me is rubbish and you need to explain it but I'd much rather lynch Chick than you right now, so it's up to you whether you do that.
@Srceenplay: I see you hiding under the radar.-
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I'm not referring to here, I know what you're capable of and I'm actually scared.In post 235, Mulch wrote: I posted six times, mate. I've gone over 1700 in a game. Your lucky I'm getting negative feedback
I replaced out of mini normal 1923 because I couldn't keep up.-
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Gone through your post now Mulch. Your link to post 20 is broken but I managed.
That wasn't drawing much attention at all, that early on. Also I don't trust your meta read unless you explain it.In post 228, Mulch wrote: Whymafia is drawing too much attention to himself in 10 to be scum also I can easily meta read him and he is town.
If you're not confident in your reads you might not want a vig role because you can screw over town so easily with bad choices, making vonflare's confident statement false. I've already said this in 63.In post 228, Mulch wrote: 31 makes no sense because the confident statement is TRUE, so even if it dosen't "sit right" with you I don't understand why
It's not the fact that he put me at L-1, it's that he knew it was L-1 and didn't say it, leaving the wagon open to a real/faked quickhammer. I've mostly changed my mind since then - the act was scummy, but the honesty afterwards was not.In post 228, Mulch wrote: I think 116 comes from a town mindset but I disagree. Town and scum are equally likely to put someone at L-1.
...
Keychain can be scum. Gut.
Also how did you go from "town mindset" to gut scum on me in no time flat?
@Sparkles: Sorry about your week, I hope things improve.
You're not voting right now. Who is your strongest scumread?-
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Keychain she/herMafia Scumshe/her
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Given the randomised setup, I'm not going to be enormously convinced by any claim that can't be proven since it's trivial for someone to pick a possible role that matches their discard. I think she's still our best bet for hitting scum based on how she's been acting.
In post 267, Vaxkiller wrote: I say we keep her alive and see what kind of NK's we got. Do NK's have flavor attached to them? If wolves are out there they will want her dead, if shes alive and there is wolf NK flavor then kill her.
Plus Vax's sudden attempt to save her is fascinating and I want to see her flip because of it.In post 289, Vaxkiller wrote:I want to wait on chickadee and lynch someone who is not actively participating in the conversation here.
I'm not going to be able to participate too much, deadline is an awkward time for me.
@Vax: why aren't you along the mod about flavour?-
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Keychain she/herMafia Scumshe/her
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Please become surer in the next 7 hours if you can
Could be seer and no wolves yeah. Means there's no way to check if her claim is legit though, like Mulch (I think) said - she can just claim anyone is not a wolf and she's pretty likely to be correct.
It's barely a clear at all. Like a tracker no visit - just because they didn't carry out the kill doesn't mean they're not scum. It's only really useful if it gets a guilty.In post 276, Chickadee wrote:If I do live, I can at least find out if someone is a wolf or not. It will either be a guilty or a semi-clear on someone.
I think the chance of her being scum is high, and the potential loss of a seer is not dealbreaking enough to prefer a different lynch.-
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So... if you hypothetically had the choice... you would discard a town role in preference of a scum role?In post 313, Chickadee wrote:I just have a hard time getting into the swing of things as town.
I can relate to not being able to get into the swing of things, as a general rule. I'm pretty fecking awkward. But it's not a good reason not to lynch you. Sorry.
We've less than five hours left. If you're around, do you mind giving your thoughts on each of the eight players that aren't you? Can be as long or short as you like. What has stood out about their play? Which way are you leaning on them?
Also
people
Deadline is rapidly approaching and a no lynch would be really bad-
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Keychain she/herMafia Scumshe/her
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Always useful to have, since I can't exactly ask after you're dead. Thank you. Everyone is leaning gut scum on me, sigh.
If you could go further into your Creature and Vax reads in particular, I'd be interested, but I've only got five minutes before I'm occupied for the next four hours.
I like this lynch but yeah, not great to be trapped at deadline. I'm more worried about a no lynch tbhvonflare wrote:If we had more time I think chick would live but deadline lynches suck
Pretty sure chick is L2 rn-
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Vonflare I'm a she and I despise being defaulted to male, please stop.
Also stop with your AtE mate, what are you going to do when I flip town?
If Chick was town why would she suddenly be able to magic up content under pressure?
I'm a nurse. Only useful if there's a doc in game but I really really didn't want to play scum this game.-
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I'm at L-1 and I'm probably going to be deadline lynched - needed to get it out first.In post 511, Mulch wrote:Bad claim.-
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Wat
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Fuck!In post 556, Mulch wrote:
I'm shooting Chicadee in the night, if I die and there is no kill lynch her 10000%
Do this-
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What does this mean thoughIn post 565, Mulch wrote:WOAT game-
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