Micro 1059: Micro & Normal Stuff | GAME OVER

[scamper]

okay, busy day, have time to actually post now, going to get to things in a bit

[scamper]

so on pondering i *think* megs role is townie, because otherwise the complex cop would only be able to get results on ausuka and maybe the other mafia member which seems not great for a 9p

Can you explain your thought process here a little bit more? I don't quite follow you.

don flipped complex cop, which only gets results on non-vanilla roles. so far the only other flipped roles are VTs and a mafia goon. the cop needs to be able to get results on someone. so far the only claimed roles that can do that are ausuka and meg.

i think ausuka is probably town because scum-ausuka likely doesnt know theres a cop in the setup to fakeclaim miller against (unless shes informed but thats the mother of all tinfpil theories and shes never scum with phoenix anyway)

if meg is mafia: the only 2 roles in the setup the invest can get a result on are a false positive and one of the mafia. that feels a bit weak for an investigative given their results are rarely ever going to be useful. i think it makes sense if meg is the backup to a mafia neighborizer

of course the claim is probably real regardless of alignment but people in my last game know role does not indicate alignment

i just think town is weak otherwise

maybe this changes if ausuka is a miller neighborizer but idk

i still think in general meg doesnt get up in arms/1v1 me like that day 1 as scum

[scamper]

Oh I knew that I was just asking like, your reasoning and stuff

Coral

I see her point for not wanting to put Don at E-1 but I do think it's also an easy excuse for not wanting to take a stance, as Don implied. I really don't like the reasoning behind the 180 on Aristeia. The tone in her posts seems genuine, though, and I don't thing she's faking it. Still, I tend to read people by their actions more than by their tone, so:

again, i think this is a >rand partnery thing for a newbscum to say and fits precisely with the pattern of how phoenix played in his other gamess. i wanna reiterate this because i think its important and newbie scum are less good at hiding their associations than more experienced players

Phoenix's persistence is slightly towny, I think. As scum he would probably recognize that he isn't really getting townread for his approach and may change tactics. I do agree that he sounds a little stiff, but that may just be a personality or writing style trait.

Phoenix's persistence is slightly towny, I think. As scum he would probably recognize that he isn't really getting townread for his approach and may change tactics. I do agree that he sounds a little stiff, but that may just be a personality or writing style trait.

Do you think such a change would happen when we're only 100 posts in? The game is quite short right now so quickly changing your styles seems...unneeded. I think Phoenix is

fine

(now do they deserve the amount of TR's they have that's another topic) but I disagree with this being a reason to TR them

He's gotten more scumreads than townreads, no? I only see scamper having mentioned a townread. He got scum leanings from Meg, Ausuka, and Datisi, and was questioned by Don in a way that seemed to indicate suspicion.

And yes, I think that it feels like if he is scum then he is making the choice to double down on his approach. It's possible he's decided that he talked his way into where he is and he can talk his way out of it, but to me the barreling forward without regard for how he is perceived seems like it comes from someone who isn't self-conscious. It's easy and often tempting to step back and simply not post as much as scum. It's not a full playstyle change that I'm expecting.

again: this read on phoenix really doesn make sense at all. the idea that scum have perfect awareness and turn on a dime to change it is ridiculous.

it also over-emphasizes how scumread phoenix was at the time, and i think scum are more likely to be self-conscious about how the thread perceives them/their partners, typically this manifests in compulsive bussing but an experienced scum player might attempt deflection/damage control and thats what this looks like to me

Phoenix's persistence is slightly towny, I think. As scum he would probably recognize that he isn't really getting townread for his approach and may change tactics. I do agree that he sounds a little stiff, but that may just be a personality or writing style trait.

persistence in doing what, exactly?

He's moving things forward but only along one path. If he were trying to look towny by having a lot of content, I'd expect him to be tackling different subjects and angles. His continued arguing what is basically the same point with Ausuka isn't really doing anything to make him look better on a surface level. To me it comes across as a tunneled townie.

this also really makes no sense. i called it out at the time. phoenix wasnt acting tunneled and coral is going out of her way to make excuses for him

This feels like, entirely based on self projection based meta on "I would expect X to do Y but because they're doing Z they're town." If you're always in this kind of mindset it doesn't help you catch mafia it helps people know how to play around you and I can't tell if this kind of thinking is good or not.

We're 8 pages into the game. With competent players (and I think everyone here is at least a step or two above competent), figuring out how to catch people as scum at this point in the game is kind of a crapshoot. My early reads may not stick around forever, but we have to start somewhere. I would be excited to hear if you have a better method of catching scum than looking at the actions people take and trying to predict if they are more likely to be taken as scum or as town!

I find that my methods are the most fun for me, and they work well enough for me to believe in them

What's wrong with hedge?

It's not that there's anything inherently wrong, but the manner in which you did it feels awkward. In one sentence you express 3 different opinions on Phoenix:

"I think Phoenix is fine (now do they deserve the amount of TR's they have that's another topic) but I disagree with this being a reason to TR them"

. It feels like you are defending Phoenix, while also scrutinizing reasons for TRing them, while also misreading the gamestate as overly townreading them, while also vaguely criticizing all of those TRs (which don't exist) without going into why.

In the second post:

Hm, alright I'm willing to go along with this read for now. I didn't really catch on how much Pho was becoming a common wolfread. But they're not really in my "I would vote today" tier anyway."

, you accept my townread, accept that they are being scumread more than you realized, and then for some reason feel the need to emphasize that you don't actually want to vote them?

It feels over-explained, I guess. Like you feel some need to make sure you have the right thoughts put out there on this slot even if they don't quite fit into the context of what's being discussed.

My instinctive reaction is actually that it feels partnered, but I'm not really sure if I buy into that, so for now I'll just stick with thinking that it feels off.

noting the language here - she is suggesting phoenix could maybe be mafia but is pushing xayah as her primary target instead, this is the sort of thing scum do to tie town players to their partner in case that player goes down. admittedly those posts were weird but i sort of expect scum to zone in on townies saying weird things in order to push them for elimination. (i let myswelf get talked into it but tbh i didnt want meg to get wagoned which is why i voted xayah)

galron kinda feels better than he did in that meme exploder game

VOTE: coral

coral!! what are your current thoughts on the gamestate, apart from the xayah read?

datisi!!

My current thought is that most people feel pretty towny, actually. I'm surprised that scamper says he has a lot of scumreads (and im really not sure what to think of him yet but i think i want to leave him alone for now). I think that even Xayah and Don's more recent posts feel at least a little townier. All that really means is that the game is probably not trivially easy. Looking over everyone else, though, I still am leaning towards Xayah and/or Don being scum. Probably my second tier would be Ari/scamper...

and maybe Galron?

maybe you? I don't know, the middle section of my reads has been moving around a lot. I'm most confident in Ausuka town. I agree with whoever mentioned a vibe townread on Meg, but that's a bit weak due to the low amount of posts.

Why are you in particular looking for people who are making easy pushes? Is that something you always do, or is it specific to this game? The way you called it out made it sound like it's something you came into this game with the idea of doing.

this is maybe a little bit of a me-read but saying "most people feel pretty towny" is more common from scum because from an informed perspective u tend to see the towniness in everyone where townies get oaranoid and latch onto small things and lash out. this is kinda like my last game where people were paranoid of alexcellent but to me he was just so tpownie he was basically impossible to case

notably at that point galron hadnt really dont anything, coral slots him in her poe but its behinf 4 other names, and i know all of those are town. i dont really think at that point he merited being put there

its also a really dissonant statement to make - she thinks most people are towny but she has a tier of suspects that is 6 deep? like, i acknowledge that in general when the game seems hard on day 1 it leads to paranoid thoughts but if so many people seem towny shouldnt she have fewer suspects? it would just be "everyone is towny except xyz"

this is gettign a bit long so ill do the rest in the next ost

[Irrelephant11]

Official Vote Count 3.01

this baby is completely uneducated, and could probably benefit from having more friends

elimination

With 5 votes in play, it takes 3 to close without saving.

Coral

(1): scamper

Not Voting

(4): Ausuka, Coral, Datisi, MegAzumarill

Deadline:

(expired on 2022-08-14 04:59:26).

Mod notes:

This is a reminder that each game day is shorter than the last.

[scamper]

when someone is correctly scumreading me, the thing i love to do is just continuously ask them what feels off and what do they not like about it and etc etc, and when they give a response continue arguing why they're Wrong, Actually

I didn't continue arguing why he was Wrong, Actually, though, so how does it fit? It was intentional though, I wanted to see how he would respond to that tone. I liked the response, because he didn't feel a need to overjustify himself and directly respond to every question I asked in order to win the argument. The way that he simply restated his point with a little more clarity felt like a response from town who is still trying to sort things out

this is an aside from the phoenix stuff but i want to make an aside: when coral was suspected she played the part of the calm and reasonable "oh why do you suspect me? we'll that's fair" in response. this might be a personality trait but i think this type of approach is scummy in nature because its a lot easier to remain calm and rational when you *know* the person pushing you is town and has good reasons you can try to talk them out of. townies get emotional, they get paranoid, they get po'ed, theyre way more likely to get suspicious of the people voting them but i dont get that same sense of paranoia from coral. i knowthis personally because i react a *lot* more rationlly to pressure as scum

[scamper]

Hi! Checking in to say that I won't be around much at all tomorrow. I don't think I have any new opinions right now. I guess the only thing would be that I'm more and more thinking that it could just be Galron, as nearly everyone else seems to be achieving some level of towntelling.

My guess would be that it's one of Galron or Xayah but not both, alongside... Don or Datisi? I haven't thought about that too much but it feels reasonable

these posts edge toward galron being scum without directly pushing him, right as datisi is moving toward pressuring galron and the thread is starting to turn against him. it looks like your classic progression toward being willing to bus. 765 and 909 follow up on that.

but it feels very inorganic? the idea that he suddenly leapfrogged ahead of don/xayah in her eads and that *everyone* else is towntelling isnt really expanded upon, she just says it. its like she realized that was the only wagon likely to go through and had to position herself for it

[Datisi]

scamper, what do you think about massclaiming?

[Ausuka]

Ok my mentality here is that I wanted to wait for massclaim

As a claimed miller I do not really have anything to contribute to said massclaim, but if my input matters, I would like it to happen

[Ausuka]

The claims thing is like... Again I will wait for massclaim, I think until then we can't really comment on them. Although I will say I don't think miller really makes complex cop any more useful. It's the kind of thing that looks like a cool interaction until you think about it and realise it's not actually interesting at all

I do agree that my instinct is that Meg would be more reluctant to fight with scamper like that as scum but I guess that could be wrong

[MegAzumarill]

I've been going back and forth between sharing something now or after massclaim and am leaning toward the latter.

Right now I'm waiting for something to happen.

[Datisi]

what's stopping you from sharing it now?

[MegAzumarill]

I think it gives scum more information to work with before they finalize their claim.

[Ausuka]

I mean, from our perspective, you're the prime suspect right now

[MegAzumarill]

Probably harmless but I don't see any reason NOT to wait until afterward.

[Datisi]

i mean

i feel like you can adjust your ~thoughts~ based on claims?

[MegAzumarill]

Yes thoughts do tend to change as either alignment when there's more information abailable.

I don't see your point though.

[Datisi]

you don't see a point why scum!you wouldn't want to present reads that could age awkwardly if claims go down a certain way amd force you into awkward re-evals or just straight up make you die?

[Coral]

this is maybe a little bit of a me-read but saying "most people feel pretty towny" is more common from scum because from an informed perspective u tend to see the towniness in everyone where townies get oaranoid and latch onto small things and lash out. this is kinda like my last game where people were paranoid of alexcellent but to me he was just so tpownie he was basically impossible to case

notably at that point galron hadnt really dont anything, coral slots him in her poe but its behinf 4 other names, and i know all of those are town. i dont really think at that point he merited being put there

its also a really dissonant statement to make - she thinks most people are towny but she has a tier of suspects that is 6 deep? like, i acknowledge that in general when the game seems hard on day 1 it leads to paranoid thoughts but if so many people seem towny shouldnt she have fewer suspects? it would just be "everyone is towny except xyz"

Most of your other points are at least

fine

-- I don't have much to say about them, although I can respond if you'd like me to (I'd expect you don't care much, which is alright) -- but this one I'd like to talk about a little bit.

Mostly the final paragraph. Everyone in the game is a suspect, on some level. If most people are being towny then that leads me to suspect that scum are being towny. Perhaps my phrasing was unclear. Me saying that most people are being towny means that most people are doing surface level towny things. It doesn't mean that I hard townread everyone. It means that on an individual level, when I look at each slot, they feel town. And in that gamestate, when I step back and look at the game as a whole, that means I'm really not sure where scum could be. That makes my reads weaker and means there's less separation between them. That was what I was trying to express by listing my reads in that manner. I don't think there's a dissonance.

I do have a tendency to believe that scum are being very clever, and focus on the places where I feel like that could be happening. Especially because in that situation, Galron is probably going to die regardless. Those sort of slots rarely interest me, even though they probably should more than they do.

[Coral]

scamper, I too would like to know what you think about a massclaim.

I'd also like to hear what your thoughts are currently on Datisi, if you don't mind.

[MegAzumarill]

you don't see a point why scum!you wouldn't want to present reads that could age awkwardly if claims go down a certain way amd force you into awkward re-evals or just straight up make you die?

No I get that concept, but where are you going with this?

i mean

i feel like you can adjust your ~thoughts~ based on claims?

This is true regardless of my alignment. So?

[Datisi]

yeah, obviously it is? but hiding some of your thoughts in the name of "don't want to give scum info for their fakeclaim!!" has a very clear scum-motive behind it, while the town-motive is much more of a stretch? especially as you have already claimed your role, and i don't see how your thoughts on the game would even affect scum's claim if you're town

[MegAzumarill]

I'm getting the impression scum is currently probing players trying to figure their plan to moving forward.

[Coral]

Why do you think it's scum-motivated, rather than town trying to probe scum to see what they're planning before moving forward?

[MegAzumarill]

It's less I think that people are scum for doing it, rather that the people I think are scum ARE doing it.

[Coral]

Are you referring to me or Datisi? I think we're both doing it.