Micro 708: H4rdcore Mafia (Game Over)

[Infinity 324]

VOTE: LQ

What's up

[Infinity 324]

Lolol

[Infinity 324]

Ok, I like that you're trying to get an early read, even though I would probably do that as scum too.

[Infinity 324]

So do you think that's scummy?

[Infinity 324]

Why would you expect town to say something else there?

[Infinity 324]

Meaning what?

[Infinity 324]

@LQ, do you expect scum to be overly hyper on the first page??? I will try not to mislynch you this game though.

What does this mean?

[Infinity 324]

I

think

this is town v town, but I want to see how it plays out.

[Infinity 324]

I don't understand LQ but I'm pretty sure he's town so that's fine.

Moonbird, thoughts on duppin?

[Infinity 324]

UNVOTE:

Don't have a scumread

[Infinity 324]

I know you are quite a strong town player, but can you tell me any game you're scum in? Thanks!

What was the point of this question?

[Infinity 324]

I don't understand LQ but I'm pretty sure he's town so that's fine.

Could you explain this read?

Actually several players have called him town now but no one has bothered to explain why. I'd like to know if I am missing something or if it's just a character read.

Essentially, I find it much more likely for town to put themselves out there this early on. I also think his thought process makes a lot of sense as town but I don't see why he would be so convoluted as scum.

[Infinity 324]

You explained pretty well why I don't understand LQ, but I'm not seeing the tryhardiness and the tone coming from scum here.

[Infinity 324]

But good point about scum maybe feeling like they have to townread him.. I would like the other people who townread LQ to explain their reasoning.

[Infinity 324]

Elaborate, how does he play as town vs scum as far as you know?

[Infinity 324]

Well people who were lynched are mathematically more likely to be town than scum, I think we should take their opinions into account at least a little bit.

[Infinity 324]

Why does their opinion barely matter if they were town?

Of course we're not just going to sheep the dead people but we shouldn't ignore their views either.

[Infinity 324]

I already said I'm not sheeping dead people. I'm taking their opinions into account. Just like living people.

[Infinity 324]

And I'm not doing unflipped associations assuming someone is scum obviously, that would be beyond dumb

[Infinity 324]

I know you are quite a strong town player, but can you tell me any game you're scum in? Thanks!

What was the point of this question?

Also, didn't you townread LQ? Why did you?

[Infinity 324]

...did you read the game and have conclusions?

[Infinity 324]

VOTE: n_m

Policy lynch ho

[Infinity 324]

VOTE: n_m

Policy lynch ho

do you have any actual scumreads?

No

[Infinity 324]

I'm giving lalight BotD cause of v/la

[Infinity 324]

VOTE: lalight

[Infinity 324]

for?

There so little depth in your reads, you don't seem to be trying to scumhunt.

You also never followed up on that LQ game you asked for, which makes me think you didn't really care about it.

[Infinity 324]

for?

There so little depth in your reads, you don't seem to be trying to scumhunt.

You also never followed up on that LQ game you asked for, which makes me think you didn't really care about it.

I am sorry, but 144 pages and 365 LQ's posts? From what I saw by skimming LQ's posts there were contentless and short, which is definitely not the case here.

Depth? I have no idea what depth do you want given 7 pages of the game in which nothing really happened. Sorry, I really don't have anything bright to put my claws in.

I feel like you could give a lot more than "these people aren't scumhunting". Like I think duppin has given a lot that could be intepreted as scumhunting, same with ZZZX. I was expecting an analysis of that rather than just dismissal. I also think that zzzx's aggressive tone and policy opinions are pretty NAI. Like why do you think scum would do that and not town?

n_m plays the same as town and scum pretty much. Exactly like this.

[Infinity 324]

Intent to hammer

[Infinity 324]

n_m plays the same as town and scum pretty much. Exactly like this.

let's all take a hard look at comment because this is meant to move the N_M wagon along without actually committing to any kind of read on him

...

But it's true

[Infinity 324]

I was asleep, I should've thought of that before I went to bed sorry :/

[Infinity 324]

This will prob raise some questions but VOTE: infinity

In his iso, he compliments someone, but never fully sticks on it. Like buddying to get called out on buddying.

He has voted for both N_M and LaLight, the two biggest wagons of the day.

He took away an rvs vote on LQ just because he does not scumread him, I have only seen scum flip flop on rvs vote. Generall what I have seen is town is that the rvs vote stays UNTIL you scum read someone and that is when it change. Unvoting an rvs vote seems like bullying.

This is scum.

Pedit: LQ: trust this

Whats the first sentence about?

The two biggest wagons are the biggest wagons for a reason.

Unvoting my RVS vote is something I do when I explicitly townread someone. It just didn't make sense for me to be voting my top townread at that point.

As much as I hate to say this, this looks pretty town to me. It's going against the flow and picking up on things that aren't obvious. Scum!momo could just vote lalight or n_m or even, like, duppin.

[Infinity 324]

You claimed cop in a mountainous setup.

Did you not read this.

VOTE: Not_Mafia

Lynch this someone.

Pedit: Your play is a joke. We are lynching you.

...lol

To be fair I support this wagon and still think the originality in voting me is pretty towny

[Infinity 324]

I need to reread. I'm not sure where to go from here.

Normally I trust VCA a lot more than my normal reads. But here, n_m or momo would have to be scum for lalight to be a counterwagon (unless guilty was bussing duppin and then decided to CW his own wagon??)

Nonetheless, the votes are still making me doubt my lalight scumread. Especially since my d1 scumreads aren't usually very accurate.

Duppin...honestly I don't remember what he posted. That bothers me.

Guilty feels town to me but I remember him being such obvious town in every other towngame I've seen of his. So I'm waiting for that, I guess.

ZZZX I still don't have a read on. Moonbird looked town but where is he?

LQ is town, momo tentative town.

That's it.

[Infinity 324]

Momo looked really scummy when I replaced him in jungle oligarchy as scum

[Infinity 324]

Cause I thought it was a scummy read. Not because I thought it was a wrong read.

[Infinity 324]

So you thought I had given a lot that could be intepreted as scumhunting yet you did not know what?

Yes, I read your posts but I don't remember them that well.

[Infinity 324]

Not a fan of what he is doing today at all though, it seems very opportunistic

What?

[Infinity 324]

I haven't had a lot of time to focus this game, but you're probably right that I should've paid more attention to your posts and gotten a read on you. Early on the read was basically null, and then I started focusing on other stuff so I kinda forgot about you. (sorry!)

But I feel like since lalight did have a stated read on you, it should've been one with a little depth. Also, I hold scumreads to a higher standard than other reads. When you think someone is scum you should be focusing on that read more and really trying to get in that person's head to see if you might be wrong.

[Infinity 324]

Why didn't you elaborate here when you elaborated on everyone else? It makes the read look fake and like you are trying to make Town!moonbird a gimme when it isn't.

Because I've explained the read several times. I think he is town for his push/read on momo d1, while I did not agree with the read itself I thought it was very townie for him to have a read there and then give it later on when he engaged me when he had no reason to do so.

I Town read momo for pretty much the exact opposite concept. I like momo's read on Infinity which is why I am Town reading momo. All the interactions from momo with NM can be faked pretty easily.

I know, you and Infinity already said so but that's not the read I got. I thought the way momo engaged NM was super town. The way he reacted to the cop claim etc, I just can't see a scum legitimately trying to push on that. I mean unless momo likes to do dumb tells but meh. I liked it.

this one def needs more elaboration at the very least. For one, you never said once you were Scum reading me so I don't know how you could "feel better about LQ" when you said this earlier

True, I never directly said I scumread you but I called your play out several times d1 and questioned the town reads on you as I did not understand them at all, because I thought what you did was suspicious and I disliked your reads.

The reason I feel better about you now comes down to the fact that I believe you are approaching the game the correct way like I said earlier (as in trying to force town to play town) + I really liked GL's read on you and I have sort of been sheeping it. You're still not really a hard town read but I feel okay about you.

So how can you both agree with everything I have said but disagree with things I have said? It makes no sense.

I agreed with everything you said regarding NM, not everything you've said all game, and I believe the same thing you called NM out for pretty much applied to momo as well (at the time).

This is right BS right here. You never talk about your Town read on GL once before this. You never talk about GL before this at all. So it looks like you are just making up a read to make yourself sound good.

Uh what, is it bs before I haven't brought it up before? Really? I hadn't commented on several players until now. I also fail to see how bringing up the read makes me sound good.

You can't both agree with me about me saying you need to provide reasons for your reads and then Town read someone for not providing reads for stuff. You say you liked what Infinity did D1. What did you like about Infinity? You haven't said what you have liked about infinity, just that you liked him D1 and that is with the conundrum that Infinity doesn't provide reasons for his reads. There is only one reason to Town read Infinity and I'm leaving that up to you to tell me what that is.

I absolutely can. I thought Infinity was fairly town based on his play, the fact that he didn't throw out a readlist doesn't change anything. Stop trying to apply your self meta to me, we obviously do not read the game the same way. I agree with the approach taht we should get players to contribute to the game, but that does not mean I'm only townreading players who throw out all kind of reads. Also he did in fact throw out reads, which was pretty much the main reason I actually townread him, like I just said so. I thought the way he went at LaLight was townie and I also admitted that it's probably a bit biased but I still felt good about it.
I couldn't care less about your "only one reason" to town read infinity.

You are Scum reading LaLight for NAI reasons.

It is possible yes, but I thought what he did was super suspicious no matter what NM's alignment was.

Why no explanation here? Nothing just leaving it blank? Why?

Because I have absolutely nothing at all. He has mainly been discussing game mechanics, but has also called out a couple of players including you. Ultimately he hasn't really done enough for me to warrant a townread but I don't think he has said anything suspicious either. I'd like to see him do something more, but honestly at the moment my focus is elsewhere.

Hmm

I think the reason why I was forgetting him was that he put a lot of his time into defending himself, but I don't really consider that a strong scumtell. Town can be overdefensive too. The LQ read looks suspicious, I don't like the progression of shade into quietly dropping the suspicion and townreading him. Duppin could've been trying to generate paranoia but then seeing it just wasn't going to work. Duppin is also quite waffly on his reads, but I don't consider that a strong scumtell.

But the thing is, duppin' stone here feels so genuine and I can't ignore that.

I went into this post thinking my read on duppin leaned town, but I think it's null now. The LQ read bothers me quite a bit tbh.

I'm going to try to figure out what exactly I like about the tone and see if that helps.

[Infinity 324]

Reads can change...

This one has not.

I read the post as manipulative. Town would address my concerns and try to turn this into something that could move the game along. Scum would just say that our scum read based of multiple points makes no sense and try to manipulate us without any real evidence as seen in 278.

I think you're tunneling dude

[Infinity 324]

I think part of the reason duppin' stone feels town to me is that it seems like he genuinely doesn't understand why he's being scumread. This isn't only possible from town, but it's much more likely to be town.

[Infinity 324]

Good responses GL, everything above was pretty much BS concocted by me to get reads on a slot I had no reads out. Give what looks like a reasonable reason to scum read someone and judge their response. You passed the test.

Lol, this is town

[Infinity 324]

I have Town reads on GL, momo. Reason for this is that they are thinking about the game critically and generally have a Town narrative and are game solving.

I have as somewhat less of a Town read on ZZZX and Lalight. ZZZX seems to have a Town perspective and is thinking about the game, same with LaLight. The reason these two are not as high of Town reads as the other two is because they are not playing as game solvay in an active way.

Next we have Infinity 324 and moonbird. These players are doing some things that Town players do, but they are not quite doing enough to show they are Town. Consider these very slight Town reads or Null reads.

Lastly, duppin, who has seemed to have given up which is not a Town mentality to have. I expect Town to want to fight their lynch to the bitter end.

This Reads list is a reaction test, just so you're all aware. I'm not going to say what I am looking for, I expect others to be able to figure it out if they are Town.

The reads have no depth to them.

But idk why town would find that and not scum

[Infinity 324]

Good stuff @LaLight, I like you for Town now.

Why?

[Infinity 324]

by the way. As far as I hate townreading people and never do this, this particular game might be an exception, otherwise it would be too crazy. But! I am not townreading momo just yet

Why do you usually not townread people and why would you this game?

[Infinity 324]

Duppin, i think it might help if you said something whenever one of your reads changed.

[Infinity 324]

But no one had claimed to have a scumread at him, people were calling his play anti town. LaLight apparently had another read on him at that point, which then immediately changed after he looked at his ISO. I think if LaLight was interested in evaluating the wagon he would've checked NM's ISO before commenting on it.

Why not lazy town who just remember n_m's play in a certain way and was wrong

[Infinity 324]

But how do you determine the difference between a lazy town and scum just trying to lay low and fake contribution? I think he fits in either world, I'm not really getting any townvibes from his posts. The only post I really liked was his response to my question (regarding NM), but that's not really enough.

Good question, I think you have to look at the places where they actually do put in effort.

[Infinity 324]

Ok

VOTE: lalight

Sorry gl, but that case is just so stretchy and lalight is focusing way too much on small aspects of duppin's posting.

[Infinity 324]

Ooh, and duppin didn't even post between 107 and 149. That's pretty scummy to change that read without additional clarification then.

[Infinity 324]

Actually, your responses are somewhat townie, but can be easily faked. But okay, UNVOTE: .

This line is so scummy...why are the responses towny? Why do you unvote if they can be easily faked? Why not vote zzzx, your other scumread, here?

Use [post= and ] and [/post] to link btw.

If there would be strong scummy aspects of someone's posting, we would all just vote for the guy and lynch him. And win. Looking at the smallest aspects is the thing I love this whole game for. I am sorry, but do you really always look for huge scummy narrative? Don't think so.

Missing the point. I'm not saying all scum are obvious and everyone uses the same things as scumtells. I'm saying I don't believe you really think duppin is scummy because he brought up the fact that LQ's reasoning for n_m being scum also applied to his previous scumread. Like I can kinda get where you're coming from that it's a tiny bit off to say that and then vote n_m but there's no way you can reliably say someone would do that as scum and not town.

About 107-149, look above for clarification. i haven't read anyone back then and only then I reread the whole game.

This is fair enough though.

I want to see more scumhunting from you though. I don't think you're trying to get inside people's heads, prove me wrong. My push on you would be a good place to start. Do you think it's scum-motivated or not? Why?

I also want you to go through your read on duppin and come to a more solid conclusion.

PEdit: ok

[Infinity 324]

Ok

You said in 300 you townread a bunch of people, can you explain your townread on LQ and your position on guilty once you've reread him? And do you just think me and zzzx are scum by PoE now that you like duppin more? Are there any townread that are stronger than others or what?

[Infinity 324]

That's everyone.

See I don't really understand how much changed between 300 and now. You explained duppin, but apparently you're suspicious of momo where you townread him before. You also are null on moon and guilty where you apparently townread them before. Can you explain why you townread those 3 people before and what changed?

Why are me and momo scummy for you.

PEdit: @lalight

[Infinity 324]

And lets be clear, you were not specific at all when you quoted my interaction with duppin. Why is what I did in this reads list worse than what you are doing with your response to my conversation with duppin?

I pointed out specific things with duppin's play, like the read on you and the overdefensiveness and I was thinking about how they could come from town or scum. You didn't do that.

But you've shown in other posts that your reads do have depth to them. Just not that one.

[Infinity 324]

Because I like his stream of consciousness. I like that he was doing that when the thread was dead. It looked very natural and didn't look like he was hiding anything, just straight stream of consciousness when nothing was happening in the thread, and he didn't make bad points either.

I'm a sucker for a good stream of consciouness, but that one seemed pretty fakeable. There was nothing special about it to me. Yes scum are less likely to post when the thread is dead but they do need to post at some point or people will wonder where they are. Maybe lalight thought taking the initiative would make him look town.

[Infinity 324]

That's everyone.

See I don't really understand how much changed between 300 and now. You explained duppin, but apparently you're suspicious of momo where you townread him before. You also are null on moon and guilty where you apparently townread them before. Can you explain why you townread those 3 people before and what changed?

Why are me and momo scummy for you.

PEdit: @lalight

Apparently I started to put more suspicion in the game. momo plays townie - but is it a towntell for him? I hope you know what I mean. I don't like it when the person who always plays scummy suddenly starts playing very townie. Something's always wrong there: either they's a pr or scum. Former is not the case.

Told already about moon: TRed by me D1, then disappeared, then I reread those posts and yeah, for the beginning of D1 they're pretty townie, but it's a Golden Age of townie posts. In the last game I've played, Normal 1903, I was scum and earned quite a lot of towncred solely based on D1. As it turned out, I won this game at 3-person LyLo.

I need to reread GL, that's what I am gonna do next.

Your playstyle is cautious and calculated. May be your meta, but your posts look like you reread them after writing to make them more neutral. scumtell imo.

Also, god it's freaking hard to play with 8 people knowing nothing about them (except that momo is usually mislynched )

I like this explanation better.

tbf I've seen scum!momo in 2 games and he was widely scumread in both.

Did you have a townread on gl and need to look back to verify it, or did you just not have a read on him?

As for my playstyle: I'm playing differently than I usually do on purpose. I'm usually more active and spammy as town but I think my reads are better and people appreciate it when I'm still active but don't spam the thread. Rereading my posts is part of this, I want to make sure everything I say is important so people don't have to read useless shit.

You responses are good but the read progressions are still weird to me and the gut feeling you're scum won't go away. So idk what to do.

I could vote zzzx but I don't think what's he's doing is scummy. Even though he needs to post more game-relevant content.

[Infinity 324]

@360: My point is not that lalight must be scum because he looks town, my point is that it's not a hard thing for scum to do and not a reason for much of a townread imo. Also I pointed out the issues I have with lalight, do you disagree with them?

[Infinity 324]

I could vote zzzx but I don't think what's he's doing is scummy. Even though he needs to post more game-relevant content.

This is kinda of a weird stance to take on a read, Are you trying to distance yourself from the lynch while being ready to join in on it?

This pinged my scumdar for some reason. Anyway will take note.

No?

I don't see how this is different from just stating a null read.

[Infinity 324]

@360: My point is not that lalight must be scum because he looks town, my point is that it's not a hard thing for scum to do and not a reason for much of a townread imo. Also I pointed out the issues I have with lalight, do you disagree with them?

Your reasons for Scum reading LaLight are unrealistic and not grounded in what is typical in the slightest. I don't think you are making up reasons, but it sure looks like your points miss the mark. That's why they don't count for much. You also don't articulate your points well enough considering they are largely unconventional methods to read people.

Huh, can you take one of my points and explain why? I didn't think my points were too off the wall but maybe you're right that I'm having trouble articulating them.

[Infinity 324]

Ok

VOTE: lalight

Sorry gl, but that case is just so stretchy and lalight is focusing way too much on small aspects of duppin's posting.

Ooh, and duppin didn't even post between 107 and 149. That's pretty scummy to change that read without additional clarification then.

This kind of post sequence doesn't come from a town thought process

If town!Infinity had thought LaLight's read change without clarification was bad and possibly scummy, he would have looked into whether duppin had posted in between LaLight's posts of his own accord. He would have tried to see if he could find an explanation for LaLight's read switch, evidence that would fit in town!LaLight world or scum!LaLight world, and double-check himself and investigate to strengthen his beliefs/opinions before casting his vote.

However, what happened here is Infinity wrote that he thought LaLight is scum and voted accordingly, then

went back and found more evidence afterwards

to support his case. That reads much more like a scum mindset. Infinity wasn't even finished looking for what happened in the thread before he started trying to sell a conclusion.

...

did I say the read change was the reason for my vote?

[Infinity 324]

You definitely implied it. How does it matter whether I read back before or after if I'm going to vote anyway?

[Infinity 324]

No. That's a playstyle thing and has absolutely nothing to do with alignment. I voted because the post was scummy, then I thought duppin may have brought up a good point so I went back and checked that. If you think that's scummy I don't know what to tell you.

Do you usually consider whimsy scummy and thoroughness towny, or what? I really have no idea where you're getting a scumtell from this.

And yes I missed the way the read changed the first time around.

[Infinity 324]

The sudden townread is a point in lalight's favor I think, but I could definitely imagine reason for scum to do that too.

GL is pretty nitpicky as town so I wouldn't scumread him for that but there's still something missing from when I've played with him as town before. I'll have to do a meta check.

Besides meta, the things that he's focusing on to get reads I like. The wagon analysis is one example of that actually. I don't agree with it in this case, but it seems like a weird thing for scum to focus on.

[Infinity 324]

Fair enough, but I'm not so much scumreading GL as I am questioning my town read on him. It's becoming increasingly difficult to keep trusting my town read when I feel like he is tunneling me really badly. I'm pretty sure I could just say hi at this point and he'd find a way to call me scum for it.

Why did you townread GL before? Tunneling shouldn't be a reason to doubt a townread. Town do that all the time.

[Infinity 324]

Town tunnels with bad reasoning ALL THE TIME

[Infinity 324]

Right, that's why I think it's NAI.

[Infinity 324]

Fair enough.

[Infinity 324]

He didn't think he could continue to justify the push

He thought you would be lynched so he didn't want to be on the wagon

He thought people would townread him for that reason

[Infinity 324]

Eh I meant, seeing as he was the first one to back off and call me town just isn't really what I'd expected from a scum if he thought he couldn't justify the push. He could've just stopped posting and waited until the other pushers showed up and even then I don't think he needed to call me town.

Idk. Sometimes as scum I feel like I can't come up with enough BS to justify my scumread even though other people actually have the same read. It's much different when you know who is town and who isn't. It may have been just paranoia on lalight's part and a bad move, but I feel like that is a possibility.

Momo, have you seen scum actually say that before?

[Infinity 324]

I was actually just thinking duppin was town. The thought process evaluating lalight and the bias against GL for tunneling on him look very town to me.

[Infinity 324]

I was actually just thinking duppin was town. The thought process evaluating lalight and the bias against GL for tunneling on him look very town to me.

What makes you think Scum don't do that?

Also, did you even read my read on duppin? My is based on duppin's emotions. So what about my emotion based read on duppin is off?

I think the way he did both of those things looks genuine.

I don't think squirming under pressure/being uncomfortable is unlikely from town at all. Especially for someone just coming back, as you said.

[Infinity 324]

LaLight I would like to know what your read on me is, you said several times you would reread me but that hasn't seemed to have gone anywhere

Infinity if we're both town and duppin is town and LQ and momo are town, do you really think it's just LaLight and moonbird? I'm trying to re-evaluate where I'm wrong if I'm wrong about duppin being scum and/or LaLight being town but it doesn't leave me with many remaining potential scum

Yeah it worries me too. ZZZX is another possibility, but it still makes me worried that my scumpool is lalight and 2 lurkers. That happens way too often for me.

I'm thinking since we have so many mislynches though we could win this by PoE. If we get 2 correct townreads collectively we win. LQ is one, I think momo might be another.

[Infinity 324]

I think the thing with 333 and 334 was that I posted 333 before I read 331 and 332. So I voted lalight for 330, then I saw duppin's point, checked back, and made 334. If that makes any sense at all.

Can we talk more about duppin and lalight tomorrow?

[Infinity 324]

Can we not

[Infinity 324]

I can't explain it for the life of me but I swear duppin is town

Maybe it's that I think scum would read over that kind of wall before posting it and it doesn't look read over

But I think it's just the tone. It feels so genuine to me.

:/

[Infinity 324]

Why am I scum :/

[Infinity 324]

Where is my analysis off? How does that make me scum?

And don't tell me you're doing associations like that in a flipless game.

[Infinity 324]

I want to see why zzzx says he hammered so early. I'm not sure town wouldn't do that.

But I'm not too opposed to his lynch since he's one of the few people I don't townread.

[Infinity 324]

I want to see why zzzx says he hammered so early. I'm not sure town wouldn't do that.

But I'm not too opposed to his lynch since he's one of the few people I don't townread.

this is why I am Scum reading you. Your analysis is off. It doesn't matter if you think Town wouldn't do that. Its impossible to tell because there are no flips in this game. So while it would def matter if we got a flip on Duppin, we didn't so it doesn't matter because its impossible to tell if Scum or Town is more likely to do that. That's why the basics matter so much in this game. Hammering without a reason given is Scummy, period.

LQ you're making no sense. The fact that the game is flipless has nothing to do with whether scum are more or less likely to hammer.

[Infinity 324]

I think the thing with 333 and 334 was that I posted 333 before I read 331 and 332. So I voted lalight for 330, then I saw duppin's point, checked back, and made 334. If that makes any sense at all.

Can we talk more about duppin and lalight tomorrow?

Way too unsure and fency on Duppin. Question to ZZX coming to the day is meh.

Out of curosity, Infinity, who you do think the remaining scum/scum team is?

It's lalight and one of you/zzzx and if not, guilty

[Infinity 324]

Way too unsure and fency on Duppin.

Why can't town be unsure for a little bit before deciding on a read?

[Infinity 324]

Also, LQ what do you think of me thinking that Infinity being against duppin lynch is actually towny

The way I see it, Infinity has been against all lynches so far.

I was on the n_m lynch.

I was pretty sure you were town LQ but this feels like you're coming up with excuses to scumread me

[Infinity 324]

I was on the n_m lynch.

Ok I wasn't on it but I wasn't opposed to it either.

[Infinity 324]

That's a pretty weakly reasoned reads list but I can't argue with someone scumreading my other 2 suspects.

VOTE: lalight

This is way overdue

[Infinity 324]

V/LA until friday

[Infinity 324]

I'm here and I'll try to catch up tonight

[Infinity 324]

just remember that in my head you may not be scum but I am not. I have nothing to be afraid of.

I don't see why town would need to say this

[Infinity 324]

This, this are scummy as I have told already. Mostly because you don't take into account that Infinity wanted not to blindly believe dead people, but to have their reads noted. You spent 5 posts to say we won't have anything from dead. It didnt look like scumhunting and it didn't looklike anything of any usefulness.

Here I saw your reasons, they are u s e l e s s. Of course no one will vote because the dead said so, but nio one would ignore them completely. I just don't see anything useful in those dead men posts, I still don't.

Here you ignored me. So don't tell only I don't want to participate in this dance

I highlighted the fact. I am not saying we should or we must, I am saying We Have 4 Mislynches. I am not dumb newbie, I understand it's better to win without mislynches or such, why have you sterted hating this phrase? Was a simple fucking fact.

Sure. you think you're unlynchable and you want others to believe in it. You're not tho. And also you're trying to throw shade on me for scumreading you even given that this is a flipless game. You won't flip town, and you can't convince others to lynch me because I scumread you, because we won't see whether you're town.

Are you trying to catch scum or just lynch as many people as you can?

Meta means nothing. If you are aware of your meta you an as well imitate it. I don't buy meta stuff.

Why is this post even here? Why have you remembered it? You haven't scumread me before, why now?

Out of the nowhere. This is your way to play game you mentioned? Look at those reads, have you put a single slice of effort there? Feeling so empty.

What the fuck is wrong with wagon analysis? Or are you 100% sure NM or duppin is scum? How can you be sure? Why don't we look into how votes go? I admit I might be wrong about the usefulness of the process, but come on! I wanted to try!

This case feels a lot more like trying to find reasons to call zzzx scum than actually sort him. From town I would expect fewer but better points (like the readslist point is a good one-- it's just that town do lazy readslists sometimes). It just doesn't feel to me like lalight has an idea in his head of what scum!zzzx is trying to accomplish. Again, it looks like lalight is finding things he can question and call bad and calling that a scumread.

[Infinity 324]

I highlighted the fact. I am not saying we should or we must, I am saying We Have 4 Mislynches. I am not dumb newbie, I understand it's better to win without mislynches or such, why have you sterted hating this phrase? Was a simple fucking fact.

Because it came out in a way of "okey we can waste a lynch or two now on policy and whats so not. Lets not feel bad about it" from how it lead up to it

When I lynched NM i never gave an excuse and how we shouldn't feel bad. It was a NECESSITY for a game like this without any flips or PRs. I had seen no way to get anything out of NM so him dying was the only way. For you it felt more like "whatever lynch anyone" kind of post

But I didn't mean it that way. In fact, 4 mislynches is not so many.

Well many people sure will confirm that it appeared you did. It ain't only me

Yep

[Infinity 324]

Why is this post even here? Why have you remembered it? You haven't scumread me before, why now?

Wait so I am not allowed to start scum reading you for a post YOU admit as "being looking like you are doing it" yet because "you were not" I can't scum read you for it?

Please move out of the way.

Yeah I like zzzx here. He's looking into lalight's attack and seeing if they hold up (which they don't) instead of just repeating the same points.

[Infinity 324]

Okay. you're convincible.

I think you're scum less now. I am still town tho, even with a weak reasoning.

Yeah at this point lalight is probably just defeated scum and not waffly town. His mindset earlier seemed so locked in.

[Infinity 324]

Don't want to waste time talking about why my townread's read reasoning was weak in one post while I have catching up to do. Once I'm caught up remind me if it's that important.

I think duppin and n_m were probably both town. Maybe n_m was scum.

[Infinity 324]

I have no idea why scum would bus in flipless. Especially when they're not under a ton of pressure.

Just because town makes one weak post doesn't mean they're scum.

Do you think you can obvtown to redeem your terrible reads math?

PEdit: please read the thread I was vla for a few days

[Infinity 324]

Again you're using flipful mafia rules, in a flipless game. Where if you actually bothered to address my question and answer it you would have said ZZX from your POV is scum based on where your vote is.

Any player who is categorically proven wrong yet doesn't change their reads or provide analysis into doing so is scum.

Infinity is scum for being off both wagons and sheeping/working with ZZX despite calling him a scumread. This makes LaLight Town by that virtue alone. I still notice you say I didn't give reasons when this is literally what I said above too.

You are scum when despite being shown ZZX is a scum pocket and despite being shown evidence you were wrong somewhere before in prior days you keep trucking along as if nothing changed. You attack Infinity yet never Vote him and yet you say Duppin was likely town and so then defending Town would not be stupid.

Join me on Infinity or scum claim more. Your choice.

Again, there is literally no reason to bus whatsoever in flipless. Partners will be townreads of each other, no questions asked.

I was off both wagons since I didn't scumread them. I was probably right. That makes me scum?

I never called zzzx scum. In a game where scum don't bus and someone agrees with the rest of your scumpool, it makes perfect sense to work with that player.

[Infinity 324]

Don't want to waste time talking about why my townread's read reasoning was weak in one post while I have catching up to do. Once I'm caught up remind me if it's that important.

I didn't answer the question CAUSE I WAS VLA

THAT makes me scum?

Jesus math even you are better than this

I can't re-evaluate when there's no new info. I'm just going to re-read the thread the same way I read it the first time.

[Infinity 324]

LQ even distancing doesn't make sense because there's no way of knowing the first scum unless you do unflipped associations.

[Infinity 324]

Don't want to waste time talking about why my townread's read reasoning was weak in one post while I have catching up to do. Once I'm caught up remind me if it's that important.

Read my posts LQ pleasssse

[Infinity 324]

Yep I pocketed zzzx by calling his reads bad

Done with this for tonight

[Infinity 324]

Unflipped associations have a pretty high chance of being wrong given that games are balanced around random lynches.

[Infinity 324]

Unflipped associations have a pretty high chance of being wrong given that games are balanced around random lynches.

Ubflipped associations is the entirety of flipless mafia.

We have no "proof" of anything except one or more of Not Mafia and duppin are Town.

Everything else is based on unflipped associations. Stop saying that shit in flipless.

Nope. You just don't use associations.

[Infinity 324]

Unflipped associations have a pretty high chance of being wrong given that games are balanced around random lynches.

Ubflipped associations is the entirety of flipless mafia.

We have no "proof" of anything except one or more of Not Mafia and duppin are Town.

Everything else is based on unflipped associations. Stop saying that shit in flipless.

Nope. You just don't use associations.

Then you literally have no reason to scumread anyone.

Even the objective fact ZZX hammered is an association because you are assuming associations about ZZX if you wish to use that to scumread him. Any scumread and reasons in flipless is rooted in associations. I am just transparent about it. It takes a different type of play in flipless.

Whatever your definition of association is, you should not be assuming people's alignments for your reads in flipless.

[Infinity 324]

two wagons are on L-1.

This is false

[Infinity 324]

I would like to make a distinction for everyone's sanity between reads and unflipped associations, the latter of which is between two players, assumes the alignment of one player, and should not be done. Thank you.

[Infinity 324]

I am trying to take common flipless arguments and translate them into flipful for everyone.

So yes I see what you did.

I am going to shut up so people don't have mountains to read but then I expect you to show me thoughts LQ as if Not Mafia is town. And how that changes things.

Using the metric you use, it only makes sense from my angle, using your metric that ZZZX is Scum here. Reason for this is that he was the first on the wagon of NM. I was the second, but I was Scum hunting other people (duppin, moonbird) rather that simply just staying on NM like ZZZX did. If duppin is Town, it makes ZZZX look really really bad and I'm not willing to rule out that duppin was Town. Also, the fact that ZZZX could have been on duppin while I was on duppin with others in D1 implies that if Duppin was Scum, there is room for ZZZX to bus hime there. Reason for this is that ZZZX didn't provide much reason for hammering other than "we need a hammer"

Thoughts?

Can we talk this over tomorrow? I think you're confbiased on zzzx

[Infinity 324]

I would like to make a distinction for everyone's sanity between reads and unflipped associations, the latter of which is between two players, assumes the alignment of one player, and should not be done. Thank you.

There isn't. Especially in flipless mafia.

You read someone for saying "blah blah blah" that is an association. If that blah blah blah has a name it is an unflipped association per everyone's standards.

I am just honest I do it.

There's a VERY BIG DIFFERENCE between:
x did blah x is scum
and
y did blah, y is scum, y and x are associated because blah so x is scum.

[Infinity 324]

Every case IS an unflipped association.

I think Player X is scum because post 274747 is scummy. In it their attack of player Y is bad. This is a unflipped association between X and Y and the speaker Z. Mafia is unflipped associations.

Unless you assume y is town to make the point, it's acceptable.

[Infinity 324]

Every case IS an unflipped association.

I think Player X is scum because post 274747 is scummy. In it their attack of player Y is bad. This is a unflipped association between X and Y and the speaker Z. Mafia is unflipped associations.

Unless you assume y is town to make the point, it's acceptable.

An attack isn't bad if they're scum.
Again it is the same fucking thing.

Any case is an unflipped association and the more you hold to what you believe to be right the more we will see clean sweeps like the one I gave.

As long as you consider both sides. If the attack is bad regardless of y's alignment (which is possible) then it's a bad attack. If it's a kind of bad attack if y is town and it's a really good attack if y is scum, then you should reconsider whether it's really bad. If it's the latter and you townread y for other reasons and then decide that it's a bad attack because you townread y, then that's a unflipped association and shakier logic.

[Infinity 324]

132, 142, 143, 152. How exactly did your thought process work in this case? Also, naked vote until this, only after my question.

I forgave your lack of content due to V/LA and didn't consider it a scumread. When you caught up, I didn't like the content you had.

Sometimes I find I can get interesting reactions from naked votes-- not in this case, but I do it once in a while early on just in case.

[Infinity 324]

Distancing from the wagon but Kaboom (161, 180)

Saying n_m is the same as town and scum isn't distancing from the wagon, because it was a policy wagon.

Calling everyone town is a scumtell actually. I mean, I tended to do it a lot in my earlier games.

Just because it's a tell for you doesn't mean it works for other people. Alisae can attest to the fact that I often have too many townreads as town. (hi alisae!)

This is really interesting. Especially "You responses are good but the read progressions are still weird to me and the gut feeling you're scum won't go away. So idk what to do.". The same unsurity about me just as about everyone else.

Again more townreading and more

A lot of townreading. A lot of doubts. Not a lot of confidence in what he's posting. Eiter unsure town or scum. LeanScum here.

You're probably right that I'm doubting myself too much, but again that doesn't make me scum. I struggle on d1 a lot because I don't find scum tend to do a lot of scummy things so early. I'm also just naturally not very confident in my reads. It's something I'm working on, for sure.

Now your turn. You call me scum for things like townreading everyone and doubting myself, which I guess could be scum traits but could also easily come from town. My question is why in this particular case are they more likely to be scum traits? Do you think in this game scum are more likely to not find people to push? Or not have very strong reads? Do you think town would have more solid scumreads? Why?

It doesn't feel like you're really trying to solve me, but just looking at my behavior on the surface.

[Infinity 324]

Can you tell us how you get reads? There is not an awful lot of explanation here.

LQ why did you care so much about me not explaining why the readslist was poorly justified when you agreed with me? It's not like scum!me is not going to be able to come up with an explanation why I don't like a readslist when it's obviously not very in-depth.

Sigh. I guess it doesn't matter so much but I was really annoyed by you and math continuing to push on that.

PEdit: Because ZZZX looks very town in this exchange and lalight looks very scum. I could try to reread the thread, but that would just put me back where I started most likely. ZZZX was never a scumread of mine anyway, just a PoE suspect. Him being town and lalight being scum makes a hell of a lot more sense that the other way around.

[Infinity 324]

Why must it be either or? Why can't both be Town?

Because who is scum in that case? Momo looked very towny to me. Duppin looked very towny to me. LQ is obvious town. Guilty I have a few doubts on but I think he's more likely to be town.

It's possible n_m was scum but other than that I don't know who it would be.

PEdit: Where did I mention VCA?

Do you think tunneling is scummy for me? How am I tunneling to the exclusion of everything else when I've mentioned my read on every slot multiple times?

How am I "barely responding anything substantial"?

[Infinity 324]

Normally I trust VCA a lot more than my normal reads.

Oh, here lol

This is not exactly true. If there is good VCA-based evidence that someone is scum, I will trust it over my reads. In this game there hasn't really been that.

[Infinity 324]

LQ, talk to me about ZZZX. I don't remember why you scumread him

[Infinity 324]

Because all of 432 was a townread on Duppin with a serious fence?

If you think that's me being unsure I don't know what to tell you. That's me being 100% sure duppin is town but being unable to explain it.

I'm flipping my vote to you, actually. I don't get the LaLight push, and it still feels too disjointed and unfounded as a main push which has persisted for two days. Most of what I understand is that you've been scumreading Lalight based upon playlist and nuances, and the inital read stems off LaLight's shallowness in the thread even considering other players in general? You pounce upon LaLight in 153 after BotD 143 because of a lack of followup and depth of reads on their first post returning from V/LA (156)

Yes, I don't get the issue with this or why it's "disjointed and unfounded". Normally when someone comes back from V/LA and catches up I expect good content.

[Infinity 324]

Also I would like anyone who townreads lalight to engage me on it. Whenenver I bring up a point on lalight you guys just say he's town and move on to something else. I really don't see lalight genuine trying to sort people.

[Infinity 324]

@Infinity, you could have found this easy enough on your own:

ZZZX's content has bee pretty bad. Like its just not Townie. I expect Town to have good points on this instead of talking about peripherals all game, which is what ZZZX is doing. I even told them they need to step up their game and I see no change, still talking about other things other than why people are Town or Scum.

VOTE: ZZZX

So much has changed since then, does it really still hold? He made a case on lalight, do you think he hasn't been sorting everyone else enough or what? What do you think about his flippancy/"I do what I want" attitude when people scumread him?

[Infinity 324]

Also I would like anyone who townreads lalight to engage me on it. Whenenver I bring up a point on lalight you guys just say he's town and move on to something else. I really don't see lalight genuine trying to sort people.

You are too hung up on his early game. He had some good stuff from about his post 30 of his ISO on is what I saw when I ISOed him.

I disagree and I've explained why in my catchup posts.

Talk this through with me.

[Infinity 324]

Alisae, I'll make a readslist when I catch up but for now look at 777

Math, I'm not saying it's not a tunnel, I'm saying it's not "to the exclusion of everything else".

I think lalight is partnered with you, GL, or n_m.

[Infinity 324]

Would really like you to explain your townread on lalight, though, math.

[Infinity 324]

Spoiler:

If we get 2 correct townreads collectively we win. LQ is one, I think momo might be another.

also I think this is worth discussing

From a neutral perspective, the correct number of collective townreads is

three

. If we have 2 correct collective townreads, we can still mislynch a 3rd person in 5p LYLO to a scumteam of 2.

I see the following scenarios where Infinity gets this wrong:

1) Infinity is town and he included himself in hypothetical 5 person LYLO and assumed he wasn't going to get lynched, he only needs 2 correct townreads
^ I find this somewhat likely, but the problem is he should still be worrying about whether he would be mislynched or not

2) Infinity is town and he assumed we lynched scum already
^ I don't think this is likely at all, Infinity wasn't particularly scumreading either of the lynches and I don't see a reason to be so confident that we lynched scum yet

3) Infinity is scum and we lynched his partner and he slipped in assuming LYLO happens with 3p left
^ I'm not really inclined to buy this though it's loosely possible

4) Infinity is scum and he had a perspective slip here because he's thinking from the perspective of him (scum) + 2 townreads (town) + his partner being a scenario where they "lynch scum" (but actually mislynch a townie and win).
^ This is the most likely explanation outside of 1), I guess

I'm kinda in a coinflip between 1 and 4. Are there other explanations I'm missing here? I've been trying to think from this perspective the whole game, but I've been focused on identifying three correct townreads, so the disconnect here is something I want to call out. What do you guys think?

Oh right

I was thinking in terms of 3p lylo since I'm used to games going to 3p lylo I guess.

Thinking GL is town for this.

[Infinity 324]

Hmm.....
So you're saying it's a PoE read.
tbh, I don't know how to respond or refute that. =(
In that post though you said you had some doubts about Guilty.
Can you go more indepth about your GL read?

The main doubt I have about guilty is that he was more obvious town in the other games I played with him before. Here I could see a scum!GL faking his posting here if he took the right angle, mixing nitpicking with big-picture thinking.

But I don't really have any "PoE reads" per se. Lalight is an actual scumread and I'm not sure who the other scum is yet.

[Infinity 324]

Spoiler:

If we get 2 correct townreads collectively we win. LQ is one, I think momo might be another.

also I think this is worth discussing

From a neutral perspective, the correct number of collective townreads is

three

. If we have 2 correct collective townreads, we can still mislynch a 3rd person in 5p LYLO to a scumteam of 2.

I see the following scenarios where Infinity gets this wrong:

1) Infinity is town and he included himself in hypothetical 5 person LYLO and assumed he wasn't going to get lynched, he only needs 2 correct townreads
^ I find this somewhat likely, but the problem is he should still be worrying about whether he would be mislynched or not

2) Infinity is town and he assumed we lynched scum already
^ I don't think this is likely at all, Infinity wasn't particularly scumreading either of the lynches and I don't see a reason to be so confident that we lynched scum yet

3) Infinity is scum and we lynched his partner and he slipped in assuming LYLO happens with 3p left
^ I'm not really inclined to buy this though it's loosely possible

4) Infinity is scum and he had a perspective slip here because he's thinking from the perspective of him (scum) + 2 townreads (town) + his partner being a scenario where they "lynch scum" (but actually mislynch a townie and win).
^ This is the most likely explanation outside of 1), I guess

I'm kinda in a coinflip between 1 and 4. Are there other explanations I'm missing here? I've been trying to think from this perspective the whole game, but I've been focused on identifying three correct townreads, so the disconnect here is something I want to call out. What do you guys think?

Oh right

I was thinking in terms of 3p lylo since I'm used to games going to 3p lylo I guess.

Thinking GL is town for this.

Inf, can you be more transparent with me?
Because right now you're just giving me "It's a read" and nothing more.
If you're going to do it in your readlist, fine. I can wait.
I just want that readlist though

Right, I just prefer to get caught up first and go in depth later.

Bottom line is that what guilty focuses on is more likely for town to focus on. He's nitpicking but he does that as town and the things he nitpicks on seem like what town!GL would find important. This post for example, I could definitely see town finding that comment possibly AI and I find it unlikely scum would go in so much depth there.

PEdit @alisae: yeah I worded that badly. First of all there's the fact that lalight is scummy, which is obviously a big part of it. But even if I somehow knew lalight was town, I'd reconsider my zzzx townread because I just don't see who else would be scum. So that's why I told mathblade I doubt both are town.

[Infinity 324]

He never actually interacted with Not Mafia and Duppin's reads despite saying they should be considered even after I poked him for who is Town and why. Instead he continues his LaLight charge.

I am not a fan of 156 either. He doesn't follow up on his own shit either? Second of all LaLight could have easily looked up a LQ scum meta post. This looks like picking on for the sake of picking on. I attack and drop numerous things in a game. It is a matter of A) That thought could have been addressed in some other way and B) if someone genuinely is still evaluating that person.

How was my whole conversation with duppin about his reads when he was alive not interacting with his reads? I didn't take into account n_m's reads because there was no reasoning there.

Where did I not follow up on something? Also lalight told me he didn't have time, which was ok, but if he did I'd expect town!him to remember and follow up because he'd really care about what he asked about.

PEdit: mathblade I'm still catching up lolol

[Infinity 324]

How am I caught up in 654

[Infinity 324]

Because I took into consideration duppin's reads when he was alive, and that's enough. Nothing has changed with his reads since then, so...

PEdit: Why are you assuming "at this point" means "right now" as opposed to "at this point in the catchup"? How could you possibly think I was caught up when I was quoting a post from multiple pages ago?

[Infinity 324]

Honestly I think the most interesting thing in this whole deal is how he [Infinity] is putting momo higher than you in his Town list. That doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me... momo has fell off. They made like one good post and nothing since then, that's why I have LaLight higher in my list than momo currently. I admit, after you it drops substantially. We need to find another Town read and I haven't read LaLights ISO yet (will do tonight). I was kinda Town reading LaLight based on the arguments against them being garbage, but I should prolly take a close look.

I just put a lot of weight into how towny I thought 289 was. It's a town mindset to come up with reasons to try to push someone to get reactions, and I think scum would be deathly scared of admitting they BS'ed a push.

Also I'm a sucker for a good case on me.

[Infinity 324]

In short, LaLights tone is unreal if they are Scum here. They have made good points along the way and have generally just been playing a solid game. Consider this my solid second highest Town read. So as long as we don't lynch between myself, GL and LaLight, I think we win this one.

whyyyy

[Infinity 324]

ZZZX, don't get salty. The fact you defended under all my accusations doesn't tell you're town. You're now null. You don't do townie things as GL or LQ do, that's why you're a good lynch. A hint: if you want us to townread you, do town stuff.

Grosss

ZZZX has done town things, this is just an excuse for a vote.

PEdit @LQ: Why are the points good, how has he been playing a solid game

Math I went V/LA for 4 days in 3 different games, one of which I was already catching up in. This is also a very active game. If you read my posts, you'd be able to tell that I'm still actively catching up and exactly where I am in my catchup.

[Infinity 324]

so you're saying that if I'm lynched you'll start doing town stuff?

If you are town, your aim in this game is not trying to prove we are all dumb and stuff but play the way town will win, do you understand that? Or are you personally offended?

because that would be too bad

1 day before the deadline. Why isn't here anyone. Moonbird? Momo?

aaaa what if lalight is town

Ok but I think this is fakeable by scum.

[Infinity 324]

If you're saying something is doable by the other alignment it means you yourself are not as sure of it either way.

It is okay to townread LaLight. Give yourself permission.

Ok let me expand on this. The sentiment in 586 is one I've felt before as town. I hate it when people get frustrated and give up instead of trying to work with me. So naturally I'm going have some doubts when I see that. But I can definitely see that from scum too who's pretending to be cooperative. Scum!lalight just dropped a whole case on zzzx, presumably to avoid the argument. I think lalight would at least want to keep open the option of getting zzzx on his side.

I also like that he was paying attention to the deadline, but it's a relatively easy thing to fake all things considered. You just have to stop for a sec and think what town would do in that case

I just think that all of this is small compared to lalight just not trying to sort people.

PEdit: ok I'll check that out LQ

[Infinity 324]

Way to work with Town...

I can only remember playing with ZZZX once before but he was wayyyy less militant and aggressive in that game and he was town, even when he was 1v1ing a scum in LYLO. I get the sense he's fighting extremely hard here because he's scum and he needs to drive for mislynches and survive. And the re-vote back onto LaLight looks extremely bad given the unvote earlier - he says LaLight did a "180" but LaLight was consistently scumreading ZZZX throughout

Link?

[Infinity 324]

"Omg ZZZX has not done much scum hunting but responded well to pressure.. FUCK HIM HES MY #1 Scum read"
"LALight has not really scum read ... but he responded well to pressure... TOP TOWN READ"

I wont lie. I am starting to suspect my initial read on you. I don't believe town can say things so... dumb

Why is what I said dumb?

Very simple, Its just dumb. Read my post its freaking self explinatory.

M8, it makes no sense considering I haven't had LaLight as a Scum read anywhere in the game.

He actually bring up a good point. Lalight and zzzx both haven't done much scumhunting in your opinion, and they both reacted well to pressure. Why is one a townread and one a scumread.

I definitely still think you're town, but yeah. I like how zzzx is questioning the universal townread.

[Infinity 324]

Spoiler: Wow. I never an actual catchup before. Pgs 1-5

Am I hardcore enough for this thread? Experts say no

I'm gunna push you pretty hard this game. In fact, I'm going to be pushing a few people pretty hard this game.

This game is vanilla and there are no flips. That means I don't want to see a single naked vote unless its obvious beyond belief why you are voting there.

Um yeah...I'd imagine in this setup you have to push your reads with absolute certainty. Otherwise you give away that you don't fully believe that they're scum. This post is scummy.

--

VOTE: LQ

What's up

Lolol

You don't seem concerned about me pushing you. Consider yourself a weak Town read at this point.

I don't know how you got this conclusion, especially it's considering, well, idunno, page 1 maybe? What is this reach. This is also really scummy.

--

VOTE: LQ

What's up

Lolol

You don't seem concerned about me pushing you. Consider yourself a weak Town read at this point.

n m you're attempting to establish yourself as an early authority figure, and I'm reading Infinity's reaction as more personality based in response to that then necessarily AI

second quote also is taken out of context; moreso a response to my post than your establishment imo; not sure how it factors into your reads

I quoted the second post because it shows Infinity is relaxed as opposed to being nervous. I view being relaxed as more of a Town thing unless that play is pretty competent as Scum.

OH MY GOD IT'S PAGE 1. NO ONE SHOULD BE HARDPUSHING ANYONE HERE UNLESS THE PERSON PUSHING IS SCUM. WHY WOULD INFINITY EVEN BE NERVOUS ON PAGE 1 DUDE. I DO NOT GET IT.

--

What if I have sigs turned off? What if I attempt to play without meta, which actually seems to support the logic in your sig? I don't aim to read anything but the thread, m8, and assuming that I would otherwise is kinda shitty without precedent.

Holy shit I love this guy. I don't see this line being written by scum mostly because here it seems like Moonbird is genuinely trying to solve the game.

--

hai guys

I've never played this setup before but thought it looked interesting. I'm guessing its going to be a WIFOM fest?

hai guys

I've never played this setup before but thought it looked interesting. I'm guessing its going to be a WIFOM fest?

best way to deal with wifom in this kind of game:

Throw it out of the fuckign window

don't even try to..

I'd love to but given the flipless aspect I'd be surprised if there isn't going to be a lot of WIFOM later. But oh well, doesn't really matter at least not for now.

VOTE: momo

definitely a not a naked vote guys

So you would rather talk about WIFOM than actually Scum hunt? Also your vote is on lynch bait. Also its a naked vote. Also you are not playing Pro-Town. Also, why shouldn't I vote you for all this?

VOTE: duppin

Holy shit LQ is obvscum in these early pages. Duppin's 26 reads to me as "I'm genuinely interested in trying to figure out how to play the setup." It's not awkward. It's genuine. The fact that LQ is essentially attacking Duppin for voting my slot is scummy as all hell. It's like he knows I'm town.

--

Being an early authority figure? No. Reminds me of Kill's general play. Construing reads based upon kinda weird logic? It pings me, but no solid read from that on my end atm.

Get used to the "weird logic" because you'll prolly be seeing it a lot this game. I don't read people as traditionally as some and the reasons I give for my reads reflect that. Also, go ahead a check out my sig since you haven't yet. Also, it slightly pings me that you make a comment on how my reason for a read is NAI and not really saying anything else besides that. You could have said a number of things and instead were just content to throw out how I was playing leader for no reason (since you consider that NAI by your own standard) and say I am throwing out an NAI read.

Why no comment on what I said to NM?

What if I have sigs turned off? What if I attempt to play without meta, which actually seems to support the logic in your sig? I don't aim to read anything but the thread, m8, and assuming that I would otherwise is kinda shitty without precedent.

I don't consider early leadership to be AI? Unsure as to why you would want me to focus on something I consider NAI.

I'm not saying that your read is NAI. I don't understand how you pull town from it; I continue to believe that it's a behavioral choice over an alignment associated reaction.

Didn't really regard you comment towards NM as anything in particular since you use it as a springboard to establish overall leadership, rather than just pressure on NM. Furtherest I could go looking into it would be to contrive some sort of early distancing.

Well, you don't have sigs turned off, so that hypothetical has no basis in reality.

You DID focus on something you consider NAI, and that is my whole point. You said taking leadership role is NAI. Why say I am taking town leadership status unless it leads to a read?

I already explained my read. If you don't get my reasons, then you are either playing dumb or you just don't get it. And you can't say my read is both NAI and leave a possibility for it to be AI. Behavioral choice is something that you can read as AI so I don't understand this argument at all.

No, my initial comment to NM was not that I am taking leadership status, but instad that I wanted to set a precedent that naked votes in a mountainous flipless game hurt Town in extreme ways.

Meaning what?

Meaning I was the first one to do something Pro-Town and a player is saying I "ping" them for this.

Reads? That's the only fleetingly 'pro-town' thing I could pick out you doing, and that read, again, weird, which is not necessarily 'pro-town'. I understand that you are townleaning Infinity due to their overall tone, but really everyone else has been relaxed so far, if we're going off that thought train rather than purely their reaction to you was relaxed.

No, its not pro-Town just to have a read on someone. Its Pro-Town to have a read on someone backed up by reasoning. My read on Infinity is not based only on Tone. Its based on him Going in direct opposition to what I had earlier said about naked votes and then showing that he is not worried about me pressuring him through his post of saying "lolol". This posts implies that he is not worried about getting Scum read right off the bat, so you can make one of two deductions about him:

1) He is Town so has no reason to fear because he knows given time he will look Town.
2) He is very confident in his Scum game and his ability to look Town.

Based on these two options I think the former is much more likely.

And, as Infinity points out:

Ok, I like that you're trying to get an early read, even though I would probably do that as scum too.

Yeah, and I think its more Townie to point this out than just accepting the Town read, so my read on Infinity stands. Also, I have heard a lot of people use the argument "I would do this as either alignment" without actually knowing this about themselves. There have been several games where I caught Scum and they fought against the read even post game because they think they would do that as either alignment, but they actually wouldn't considering it was the reason I caught them. I have also seen Infinity use this argument several times and so I think it loses its worth when he says this.

[quote="In post 21,

@LQ, do you expect scum to be overly hyper on the first page??? I will try not to mislynch you this game though.

This game will be more interesting, Everyone wants to keep thier presence , not many will try too dumb things without the flip. Or maybe the opposite? Idk

But the flipless aspect is interesting to how we should read people

More interested in the fact that there's no night kill, tbh.

Why is this more interesting? You gave no reasons for why you think this.

VOTE: momo

definitely a not a naked vote guys

i can see it
VOTE: Momo

What can you see? This is even Scummier than the original naked vote because its just a naked vote on someone based on a naked vote. Also, if you are going to argue that my reasons for saying Infinity is Town is NAI, then why should I believe that your reasons (that are not given) are AI for your vote on momo?

In short this is a perspective slip. On the one hand you argue against my Town read on Infinity, on the other, you vote someone without any reason given and this assumes that you are Scum reading someone based on NAI reasons. In short, you are making a contradiction of character here. You can't both fight against a reason for a read and then vote for someone without any reasons given.

VOTE: moonbird

Alright, so LQ basicly discredits Moon's point here about the signature. Moon was basicly saying "What if I try to solve the game without attempting to use meta and reading people for their play." And that's good! Like, really good! It seems like they are genuinely trying to solve the game! LQ is like "Nah, no you don't." It basicly throws that whole thing out of the window.

Also, scum like to find these "Slips" that aren't actually slips, and try to use those "slips" to push lynches, because scum!LQ doesn't have to worry about pushing a read. They're pushing a fact. Now, let's say LQ is scum and Moon is town. If they were to push Moon and Moon were to be lynched, LQ doesn't even have to defend his read or their push. It's a scummy as fuck way to attempt to justify vote.

--

oh cool I missed RVS

This is fake as fuck.

--

I think you're town and I think 26 was awkward

No it wasn't, as I said earlier, 26 reads to me as "I'm genuinely interested in trying to figure out how to play the setup." It's not awkward. It is a genuine attempt to get into the game. That is just a very easy as fuck post to jump on.

--

I think you're town and I think 26 was awkward

Elaborate please.

Like what was the point of this question:

I'm guessing its going to be a WIFOM fest?

What kind of answers were you expecting from this? It reads a lot more like an awkward joke to fit in

It's okay. You rolled scum. I get it. Maybe you should just put your hands in the air.

--

GL prolly Town. Bringing up legit points and playing Pro-Town. Also like their response to the TvT argument between myself and moonbird.

GL is your buddy, so I'm not surprised you're townreading them here

--

LQ just out of curiousity, why did you instantly call me scum for the naked vote but then immediately after when GL does it you ask him about the vote instead?

This is a good question. It shows duppin is genuinely trying to solve the game!

--

Also could you explain your read on momo? You seemed to imply momo was town, so I'd like to know why.

Nowhere did I imply momo was Town. My read on momo is Null atm since he has a single fucking post.

YOU LITTERALLY SAID MY SLOT WAS LYNCHBAIT.
DUDE.
YOU LITTERALLY SAID "MOMO IS LYNCHBAIT, GET OFF OF HIM" WITHOUT EVEN ATTEMPTING TO SORT HIM.
THIS IS OBVSCUM. THIS IS OBVSCUM. THIS IS OBVSCUM. THIS IS OBVSCUM. THIS IS OBVSCUM. THIS IS OBVSCUM. THIS IS OBVSCUM. THIS IS OBVSCUM. THIS IS OBVSCUM. THIS IS OBVSCUM. THIS IS OBVSCUM. THIS IS OBVSCUM.

--

Also could you explain your read on momo? You seemed to imply momo was town, so I'd like to know why.

Nowhere did I imply momo was Town. My read on momo is Null atm since he has a single fucking post.

You called me out for voting on mislynch bait.

THIS GUY GETS IT!
I DON'T GET WHY HE ISN'T HARDPUSHING IT.
BUT HE GETS IT!
If anything, the fact that Duppin is probably trying to understand LQ right away instead of hardpushing it makes me want to give Duppin town points.

--

Also could you explain your read on momo? You seemed to imply momo was town, so I'd like to know why.

Nowhere did I imply momo was Town. My read on momo is Null atm since he has a single fucking post.

You called me out for voting on mislynch bait.

Correct. How does that imply I Town read him? It implies I am careful about my read on momo, not that I Town read him.

No it doesn't. It implies you know he's town, because you were litterally attacking Duppin for voting momo. That implies you think my slot is town.

--

I mean I am personally tempted to lynch NM/Liquity just because I know they can influence my reads hard if they are scum later on

but then again...

now one thing I want all of us to agree on is this:

dead men tell no tales

anyone who is lynch has his opinion null'd for all we know. best way to avoid wifom

This shit can be scum too.
"SILENCE ALL OF THE DEAD."
Yeah, only scum would want to do this.

Also, I like Inf's response to this shit. Inf seems like he cares and is trying to evaluate the game. It seems like he's interested in looking back if he ever needs to. Just saying "Dead people don't matter" and sheeping that train of thought would be scummy. He doesn't do this. So he's probably town.

--

I am surprised liquity didn't try to interact with me at all. Might be thinking of voting him for that alone...

Liq what do you say about it? Were you avoiding me intentionally or just has nothing to say about my last few posts?

On second thought...I like this. It seems he's genuinely evaluating the game. If ZZZX is scum, I don't think he's buddies with LQ. I don't think scum would attempt to shift this attention to LQ here.

Nooo alisae

[Infinity 324]

Okay, I change my mind. Maybe ZZZX could be LQ's buddy. This post is basicly retracting the town points I gave them for pointing something out that LQ did. Now that looks like "WOOPS, I MADE A BAD PLAY, LET'S TAKE IT BACK."

Ali I don't see how this re-evaluation affects your reads. You say this and go back to calling guilty obvscum. Why?

[Infinity 324]

I'm really not getting anything out of continuing to read these ali catchups. Sorry. It's impossible to even get anything relating ali's alignment when he just keeps tunneling on the same people.

Ali I hope you're town and I hope you're open to re-evaluating.

[Infinity 324]

I love this post and it's tone imo. This post makes me feel a lot better about ZZZX.

Ok, this is a pretty good point

[Infinity 324]

Okay ZZZX vs LaLight is a TvT.

{ZZZX, LaLight, Moon}
{Inf}
{GL}
{VOTE: LQ}

Why is lalight town?

[Infinity 324]

You realize me stopping and thinking about town would do in those cases has me pointing to LQ and you right?

That comment was in reference to scum!lalight trying to fake a town mindset.

Depth is a requirement for having good reads, but depth doesn't necessarily mean your reads are good.

Reads list and explaining why I didn't like zzzx's reads list because for some reason you guys find that crucial will come tonight or tomorrow.

[Infinity 324]

I'm gonna catch up from my last posts, but apologize if I comment on something and then it's been covered already

just remember that in my head you may not be scum but I am not. I have nothing to be afraid of.

I don't see why town would need to say this

This is a scumpost. I can see plenty of reasons why town or scum would say what LaLight said in 490. Infinity just wants to keep the push going but isn't actually manufacturing a case here.

Infinity, explain why town would never post 490

Why

would

town say that? I don't know how else to explain it, but I can't think of a purpose behind town posting that. I'd expect scum to say that to look more town and town to just act with that in mind but not say it.

[Infinity 324]

I didn't answer the question CAUSE I WAS VLA

THAT makes me scum?

well why didn't you answer it when you came back though

Infinity is more concerned with attacking the attack on him here than he is concerned with providing his thought process

As I said before multiple times, I didn't think it was particularly useful to go into why I didn't like my townread's reads. I thought continuing to catch up was more important.

[Infinity 324]

It's pretty unlikely, but I'm not putting a lot of stock in associations (for mathblade: associations that assume someone's alignment)

[Infinity 324]

I don't see how that's a townslip @883

[Infinity 324]

I don't see how that's a townslip @883

Mathblade assumed it was 3 to lynch when it was actually 4, either because he miscounted the number of players in the game or the number required to lynch. Do you think scum would not know those numbers?

Why would town not know if scum would?

[Infinity 324]

I don't see how that's a townslip @883

Mathblade assumed it was 3 to lynch when it was actually 4, either because he miscounted the number of players in the game or the number required to lynch. Do you think scum would not know those numbers?

Why would town not know if scum would?

Scum will be more aware of how many "lynches to win" since they know how many members they have and they usually keep more attention to it.

As scum the first thing I would do if I replaced into a game is to find out how many days I need to end the game in certain cases

Fair, but I think this depends on the person more than the alignment. It's also quite important for town to know what is L-1.

[Infinity 324]

I feel like its likely to just not get brought up. But idk.

[Infinity 324]

I guess I should give my reads just so I can talk them over with people and see if they makes sense cause I may have to re-evaluated a couple of them. Tomorrow.

[Infinity 324]

Yes. I held Infinity to those high standards as he said those were his vocal point. If you said your strength cornering scum through gifs and you didn't have any gifs I would raise an eyebrow. Infinity said he is good at it so let's see it.

I never said VCA was my focal point or that I'm any good at it. I said when there's good VCA-based evidence I tend to trust it over my other reads. It's just normally I'm too lazy/VCA won't give me anything/I'm not sure how to approach it. The last two especially have been true this game.

You've played in quite a few games with me and I don't think I did VCA in any of them. Why did you expect it here?

[Infinity 324]

Like.
Every single fucking game of mafia I play in nowadays.
What happens is
"Alisae finds scum."
"Alisae attempts to catch scum."
"Everyone scumreads Alisae because he's catching scum who is townread."
"Everyone lynches Alisae when he catches scum."
"Because Alisae can't get his reads lynched, scum then proceeds to win the game."

Maybe I should just use sheer force and will to get my reads lynched now when I know I caught scum :[

Don't start my bad habits Alisae. As Town I feel this way sometimes. You saw what happened in Civ. Come back and talk.

It's because I put my foot way too far forward, and then when people don't fall me I crawl up into a ball and cry and feel like I'm just shit at mafia because I can't get my reads lynched.

Ok I'm pretty sure this is out of range for scum!alisae. Scum!alisae has fooled me before but just because of his tone which is the same no matter his alignment. I don't see him faking emotion like this as scum though.

[Infinity 324]

/me hugs

Now if you want LQ lynched (as I do as I scumread) start from a case. Ask me questions about where I am at since you townread me. Let's work on some of your other reads here. Who do you townread (besides me)?

I am going to bed as I am tired as fuck.

I like the appeal to work together. When things like that are well-placed I usually townread them.

But in this post it almost seems forced. Idk.

I know I'm doubting my reads too much but I'm just not getting enough solid evidence or even enough solid gut feels.

Fuck, this sucks.

[Infinity 324]

[quote="In [url=viewtopic.php?p=9236883#p9236883]post 960[/url], Alisae"]I don't think I even want to make a case anymore.
I stated my points in thread, and if I do that, LQ will just refute it and will make himself look town again =(

{ZZZX, Math}
{GL, Inf, LaLight}
{LQ}

I'm starting to like GL's posts about LQ. GL, Inf, and LaLight are leans btw. Now that I think about it, I sorta don't really like how LaLight basicly said I could be scum for not following along with their "plan."
My stance on Inf is still the same.[/quote]

Ok well here's a start.

Let's talk this out alisae. I really think LQ is town, can you summarize the 1-2 biggest point you have against him?

And also GL I guess. It's possible I'm wrong on one and if so I want you to convince me.

I also really think lalight is scum. So yeah.

[Infinity 324]

guys have fundamental "differences" like these where you both say contradictory points yet reach the same conclusion yet don't attack each other for it.

The thing with me is that I don't give a shit as long as we reach the same conclusion.

[Infinity 324]

I'm not sure why math and alisae are not talking about their read on me when they're mutual townreads and it's a read they disagree on (I think)

[Infinity 324]

Mathblade being wrong on a tunnel doesn't make them scum

Trust me.

[Infinity 324]

Yes. Mathblade tunnels basically every game and they are right sometimes and wrong quite a bit.

[Infinity 324]

They think they know better since they've played flipless a lot.

Which is fair, but it doesn't mean their reads are right.

But being wrong on a tunnel is not a scumtell anyway imo.

[Infinity 324]

Mathblade is actually legitimately good as scum though.

[Infinity 324]

Well they would still probably win as scum against people that don't know their meta.

But we're getting off topic.

[Infinity 324]

Yes. Mathblade tunnels basically every game and they are right sometimes and wrong quite a bit.

If that's the case, he really needs to get off his high horse.

This is actually false. I have been NK'd for NOT tunneling before and accurately CCing a scum claim.
I also have games where I lurk a lot.
I have a game I recently finished that infinity knows I didn't tunnel in. I was just loud and vocal.

Do not dare confuse a "loud" personality which I will always have for a "tunnel".

Which game?

You may not tunnel every game but most of the time you do.

[Infinity 324]

Infinity -- Who do you TOWN read?

LQ, GL, ali, and zzzx

[Infinity 324]

Yeah I townread both you and ZZZX.
I think LQ might also be town now because in retrospect, all LQ is really doing is just yelling and saying everyone who's voting him is shit at mafia, and I think scum!LQ would try out a different tactic once he noticed that one wasn't working?

Yay!

Let's talk?

[Infinity 324]

I'm really tired but GL is town

VOTE: lalight

[Infinity 324]

I need to look at LQ harder cause I haven't been. GL brought that up. Other people have brought up the idea LQ could be scum but I kinda dismissed them as dumb tunneling. He also brought up a good point that probably one wagon is on scum. Didn't think of that.

I really just hope we lynched a scum already but I need to look at LQ, alisae, and mathblade slots tomorrow.

Or maybe it's just as easy as math/lalight. Idk.

Why is math town GL?

[Infinity 324]

MathBlade:
Lets begin this from the very beginning before Mathblade joined, His predecessor , moonbird , didn't do much. The only thing a quick ISO of his showed was him not liking my "Ignore dead people's calls" which apparently many people hate (I guess its understandable? ehh) and a few random comments here and there. So we can say that MathBlade replaced into an "empty sheet". Note that this actually DOES matter. If a replaced player is townier than the guy he replaced it might just mean that the replacement is a good player. It doesn't change the slot. However here Math is replacing into... nothingness which means I can read him independently.

With that out of the way lets start at Math's early posts.

Math's entry was basically textbook. He took a quick conclusion from the fastest method he can get before reading the game which is the vote-counts. Expressed that he knows about the flip-less mafia and basically talked about general issues. For a while it kind-off derailed for a few posts before he started his "catch up"

I have been thinking about one important question that is bugging me. Is MathBlade white-knighting me? I will tell you that it IS bugging me a lot for a few simple reasons:

1- The very first post where Math checks the votes he expresses that there is a possible scum in 3 people , me included , however a few posts later he moves to defend me.
I just found that weird because if he was planning on defending me from the beginning he wouldn't have done the first post. Yet again his read on me not only came quickly but was also TOO decisive. This is one of the biggest reasons that MathBlade is town and not Conf Town in my read list. That quick re-read gave me some suspicions. However it stands that those are minor WIFOM-like situations so I wouldn't stress it too much. His constant attacks on LQ were interesting. His arguments have a lot of Meta-Discussion which I honestly can't really discus without that knowledge. I have a few more thoughts but this should be enough about Math

None of this actually explains why mathblade is town

[Infinity 324]

The differences between you and LaLight can be summed up as LaLight Town telling in a way that isn't easily fakeable, or rather, there is little to gain from trying to get Town read that way, which makes me believe that he is Town. Its one of the key things I look for when looking for Town reads. There are just too many instances where I think to myself "WTF does LaLight have to gain by making this post as Scum?" They are like water marks on a piece of paper from a book that has been read a lot.

Can you quote some posts and explain why they fit this?

[Infinity 324]

VOTE: Inf
Stop pushing my mason buddy.

Nooo alisae

I want to talk to you about stuff and you keep ignoring me, and now a naked vote because I disagree with your townread? What's going on?

[Infinity 324]

Alisae I need more than that. What do you mean I'm just "sorta there"? I'm really trying to find scum.

Is tone the only reason you townread lalight? I can't argue with that but I just don't see it.

[Infinity 324]

Why is math town GL?

If you're going to ask me this question, I'd like to hear whether you have an opinion on why they

aren't

town first

PoE

I know it's boring but I really don't have anything for that slot

[Infinity 324]

My gap year program is ending today but I'll try to find time to give my readslist.

[Infinity 324]

You know what fuck it. I'm getting lynched

[Infinity 324]

Please please reconsider lalight next. Scum can fake a towny tone but they often can't fake real sorting. Also never lynch GL. Thanks.

[Infinity 324]

Sorry I let you down alisae

[Infinity 324]

Sorry I let you down alisae

Nice new avvy.

You were actually pretty UTR til I replaced in.

Thanks! And what's UTR