House of the Dragon Spec Chat

[Lukewarm]

I...

Cant believe that I was the night kill lol

[Lukewarm]

It's kind of funny that I went from alive in 4 games at the start of Day 1 to alive in 0 games at the start of day 2 tho lol

[Lukewarm]

Maria, I think I am the reason tsq shot you

He asked the council who to kill, and I said that of the people who had been talked about killing, I was against furtive

But would be okay with any of Dwlee, Guilty Lion, or you, but in Dwlee>Gl>Maria order.

But I think tsq wanted to shoot you and was just looking for someone you say it was okay, and since you made my list he went for it. (Despite you being the lowest of my list)

But no one else in the council said your name at all lol

[Lukewarm]

Also, I feel like the power of my role was to police the council.

Like, everyone else kept saying "tracker trying to find the person doing the night kill is SO unlikely"

But that is not how I would have used it at all. The point, I think, is to check council members to see if they are using any of their sneaky sneaky bonus scum abilities.

I said that I would have like datisi+junko+ me to get paid, and my plan was to track datisi or junko

But also, I never said that out loud, and also did not get funded, and also got night killed, so... lol

[Lukewarm]

Maria, I think I am the reason tsq shot you

He asked the council who to kill, and I said that of the people who had been talked about killing, I was against furtive

But would be okay with any of Dwlee, Guilty Lion, or you, but in Dwlee>Gl>Maria order.

But I think tsq wanted to shoot you and was just looking for someone you say it was okay, and since you made my list he went for it. (Despite you being the lowest of my list)

But no one else in the council said your name at all lol

I can't believe you let your paranoia of me sink in deep. i was able to find you so easily, boohoo luke why don't you trust me~

To be clear. You were not my first OR second choice.

Like, I looked at a list of "the people who got wagoned" and said dwlee>gl>maria>>>furtive

[Lukewarm]

Also, I feel like the power of my role was to police the council.

Like, everyone else kept saying "tracker trying to find the person doing the night kill is SO unlikely"

But that is not how I would have used it at all. The point, I think, is to check council members to see if they are using any of their sneaky sneaky bonus scum abilities.

I said that I would have like datisi+junko+ me to get paid, and my plan was to track datisi or junko

But also, I never said that out loud, and also did not get funded, and also got night killed, so... lol

Just got to the main thread, and see that gl also came to this conclusion lol

[Lukewarm]

Hello beautiful people

:waves:

[Lukewarm]

It's kind of funny that I went from alive in 4 games at the start of Day 1 to alive in 0 games at the start of day 2 tho lol

Wait is this true?

Yeah lol

When this game started on Nov 13th, I was alive in The House of Dragons, Mini 2284, Community, and Normal 242.

Mini 2284 ended Nov 18, where I won as town, alive at end game.

Community was declared compromised by a list mod Nov 19

Normal 242 ended Nov 22 where I won as the endgame scum.

The House of Dragons I was night killed on Nov 24th

[Lukewarm]

So, I think if "scum killed because tracker" then it points most to Datisi, I feel like it was pretty easy to put together that if I was funded the same day he was funded, I was tracking him. And presumably, what ever PR he gained as scum, the ideal target would not be an ideal cop target too.

But also, I feel like any tracker could figure out that that was the best use of it? So it seems pointless to kill me to stop that unless there was actually a good chance the tracker would then go to scum. This feels like it points to Andres, because him getting the PR of the first concil death seems the natural answer.

But I also think that Andres is town.

So, makes me think that I was not killed on the basis of being a tracker.

[Lukewarm]

Drapion wildly does not understand the mechanics of this game lmao

[Lukewarm]

Drapion wildly does not understand the mechanics of this game lmao

Tbf si not easy to remember every detail

It is less that he doesn't understand, as much as he is confidently declaring that everyone should follow his plan

While his plan is... not remotely valid at any step lmao

[Lukewarm]

Drapion wildly does not understand the mechanics of this game lmao

Tbf si not easy to remember every detail

It is less that he doesn't understand, as much as he is confidently declaring that everyone should follow his plan

While his plan is... not remotely valid at any step lmao

That sounds inline from what I remember of his usual play.

True.

I was actually going back to thinking he was scum, until he presented his Full Proof Plan™ on what to do with the council positions, where I question if scum would actually take the time to make it make a little sense lol

[Lukewarm]

Drapion wildly does not understand the mechanics of this game lmao

Tbf si not easy to remember every detail

About your games lol, well i guess you can't have it all

I had games in other site's with statistics where people instatargeted people with high win rate

I am actually pretty happy with my performance in all four of those tbh.

Like, better then my normal performance with the three that ended.

And this game, the scum team decided to kill me night 1, which I'll count as a sign that I was doing something right lmao

[Lukewarm]

@Luke for obvious reasons I can't answer but do you think my slot was Town or scum?

Same question for RH9

I was leaning pretty hard to you being town at the time I flipped, but some of your posts today actually had me second guessing it.

Uncertain would be my real answer.

If I had to do a definitive answer, I would probably default back to town because the posts that bothered me could have been frustration given your rep out

[Lukewarm]

Lukewarm didn't acknowledge that I have basically a 100% read on him

I seem to remember you scum reading me pretty hard day 1 of Bloodstained, and i had to WORK to turn that read around lol

Also, you are what, 3/3 calling with me town? (with one being the aforementioned Bloodstained)

And 0/0 games with me as scum

Will need more data points.

[Lukewarm]

Lukewarm didn't acknowledge that I have basically a 100% read on him

*Look at me senpai vibes*

I'm the senpai here actually

Just extending my authority

unwnd was in my very first ever game on site, so I think that *does* default him to senpai

[Lukewarm]

Wow, you sure were attacking your senpai this game, smh

[Lukewarm]

From 3: 'The Master of Coin is responsible for managing the financial affairs of the Kingdom.

They hold the following abilities:

Keeper of the Purse

Each day you may make investment decisions on behalf of the Crown

You alone will know the contents of the Treasury and the incomes and debts of the Crown.

During each day you may distribute gold to members of the small council for their activities on the following night.'

This says nothing of a stock-market style minigame for the Master of Coin to play, it sounds like a lie to me. Yes, you make 'investment decisions', but this is surely just referring to the the last quoted line - giving various roles money.

Does he not see that is says

You alone will know the contents of the Treasury and the incomes and debts of the Crown.

Because, that sure does look to me like it could entail a secret "stock-market style minigame for the Master of Coin to play"

[Lukewarm]

From 3: 'The Master of Coin is responsible for managing the financial affairs of the Kingdom.

They hold the following abilities:

Keeper of the Purse

Each day you may make investment decisions on behalf of the Crown

You alone will know the contents of the Treasury and the incomes and debts of the Crown.

During each day you may distribute gold to members of the small council for their activities on the following night.'

This says nothing of a stock-market style minigame for the Master of Coin to play, it sounds like a lie to me. Yes, you make 'investment decisions', but this is surely just referring to the the last quoted line - giving various roles money.

Does he not see that is says

You alone will know the contents of the Treasury and the incomes and debts of the Crown.

Because, that sure does look to me like it could entail a secret "stock-market style minigame for the Master of Coin to play"

I was lowkey expecting secret ways for the master of coin to spend money, not included in the role pm, because of that line. It was the main reason that I said that it was one of the most important roles to ensure landed in the hands of town

[Lukewarm]

Maybe I'm just tunneled, but 2707 feels very performative to me

[Lukewarm]

Oh, I meant 2705. Not the one about me lol

[Lukewarm]

It seems really performative, because it seems really hard to swallow him being upset that "I did not get the king or council I wanted" seeing as how, it was largely all his town reads... Like..

town

: {

Andres

, VPB,

TSQ

, mastina,

FB

}

prob town? wouldn't lim today, maybe a deep wolf in here that I don't think I'd catch with no info and no flips

: {

Andante

,

Datisi

, Dann, LLD}

That is the King + 4/7 of the council.

And after that reads list, he changed his mind on unwnd and on me

And he quite literally approved this entire council sans junko

Prince - heir - Unwnd
Hand - cop - Datisi
Lord Commander - kingsguard selector - Andresvmb
Master of coin - gives money - firebringer
Master of laws - JK - Andante
Master of whispers - Tracker - Lukewarm
Grand Maester - Doctor/possible poisoner - Junkochan

why Junkochan

I am not sure she is town. I would replace her with VPB (or myself)

rest of it is good with me

[Lukewarm]

And he quite literally approved this entire council

sans

except junko

[Lukewarm]

in a world where shea is scum, that could be awful

I seem to remember andres saying that it would be randomized if he did not submit a list prior to EoD

[Lukewarm]

And yes, I have submitted some provisional appointments to the Kingsguard. They are not final, and it wasn’t easy, but they at least won’t be randomized.

[Lukewarm]

I am also going to say town, for a similar reason. It just seems like if Dwlee is scum, then the scum team is wholly ineffective, given there are currently 5 scum alive, if they cannot get a single other wagon to take off past the "lurker = scum" wagon.

(I also feel like I am less likely to be shot in a scum!dwlee world ? Maybe ? )

Dwlee has also been stubbornly committed to that Datisi vote in a way that feels more like it is believed then like they believe it rather then they think it has a chance at saving them .

Like *maybe* this is just antispew, but if that is the case then it feels like scum are just pissing away the advantage they gained with the TSQ execute.

Basically, in order for dwlee to be scum, I just have to admit that the entire scum team is all kind of bad at influencing game states.

On their own, dwlee's day 1 play had me at a scum lean, but it does not feel like they have a team around them.

[Lukewarm]

That being said, if I was in the game I would not be too mad at a dwlee elim. IF they are scum, great. But even if they are town, the suspicions on their slot were not going to just go away, and people will be forced to reevaluate on the flip. It will stop letting Datisi/GL/Baltar hide behind that read.

[Lukewarm]

But I would be advocating for a GL elim right now, and I regret backing of Day 1

[Lukewarm]

There is a lot of what math is saying that I don't agree with, but like

What stops day three from being a repeat of day two which was a repeat of day one.

Yeah. If dwlee is not killed, regardless if their alignment, it seems like this is going to just keep happening because dwlee is not suddenly lying becoming townier

[Lukewarm]

it's not simply that she's wrong, it's that she's obstinately stuck to pro-scum beliefs and reads in the face of multiple different players trying to engage with her on virtually every front, past the point of plausibility

Somebody needs to read her day 1 in The Thing lol

[Lukewarm]

it was protown despite being completely unhinged lol

I mean, her final conclusion was : we don't kill this scum player, and instead everyone should town lock them, and also I am going to "mechanically" "clear" them

So like, the final answer seemed pretty pro scum to me lol

[Lukewarm]

it's not simply that she's wrong, it's that she's obstinately stuck to pro-scum beliefs and reads in the face of multiple different players trying to engage with her on virtually every front, past the point of plausibility

Somebody needs to read her day 1 in The Thing lol

Why are you allowed to read that and I can't sadge

Pooky likes me more <3

Serious answer, but also a wild guess, is because I died and you repped out? Idk

[Lukewarm]

Not a secret one, not.

Everyone is in either supporters of the king OR non-supporters of the king

I was also in the council pt

[Lukewarm]

It's kind of funny that I went from alive in 4 games at the start of Day 1 to alive in 0 games at the start of day 2 tho lol

Did you have money when you died?

And lol at caffeine since not allowed to have caffeine or possible major heart issues.

No, I was not given money on night 1.

That was a joke made by firebringer, and also something that I think that entire idea of him putting "extra gold" could have fairly easily been dismissed by the fact that we get gold at the start of the night. If I had gotten more then the base amount for a track, then I would have outed it during the night.

So, like, at most he could have buried 500 gold with me, by funding my track.

But even then, if you go back and look at what Firebringer said to do wrt to the gold, he actually said that we should confirm our gold amounts 5 secs before the night ended. I just... didn't do that lmao.

[Lukewarm]

Okay, but regardless of what Firebringer joked about, there was a 0% chance that I was given more then 500 gold.

And even giving me 500 gold would have been dangerous, because if I had confirmed 500 gold just before the night ended, then he would have been facing questions about funding me over the cop.

[Lukewarm]

Math, unwnd = johnny slot, so he *knows* johnny alignment lmao

[Lukewarm]

Just saw that Datisi copped Mastina, and I lowkey want to call it a scum claim

(Also, killing tracker points to scum!tisi)

[Lukewarm]

Math, unwnd = johnny slot, so he *knows* johnny alignment lmao

So unwd is trolling too probably. Johnny is replicating his meta from the 1 shot loyal bodyguard game.

I had rhea and unwnd as town.

Johnny is LHF has a scummy playstyle. So, I was kind of defaulting back to my read on the prior owners.

(then got to the dead thread, and unwnd looks townie in here too lol)

[Lukewarm]

Just gonna say again, that Datisis cop check feels like a scum claim.

Checking mastina, instead of making sure that the master of coin (man controlling all the prs) is town feels pretty ???

Checking mastina, instead of LLD who is both a bigger threat (if scum) and a better potential leader (if town) is ???

And like. Even if we assume these are real reads

1. town: me, baltar, guiltylion, andresvmb - i will not be spending time explaining this.

2. probably town: firebringer, titus, mathblade, enchant, shea, andante

3. uhhhh: lady lambdadelta, dannflor

4. scummy vibes: furtiveglance, drapion

5. scum: roden, unowen, mastina, johnny

Checking mastina instead of Johnny, The Crowned Prince of Westeros is pretty ???

[Lukewarm]

Meh I can buy town Datisi doing Mastina.

I was railing hard against the Mastina scum assumption and when the council should be overthrown on my death that’s not as viable.

I suspect investments is code for “give scum team tons of shit”

Okay, but I don't think that that makes her a first priority cop check. Like, he was in the council chat where *he* was the one who vrought up the fact that tsq is acetic right now, and people were discussing the possibility of a dead tsq over the night phase via overthrow. And he didn't think it worth getting a check on the next in line to be king? When that very person is in his strongest scum reads?

Mastin feels much more like the platonic ideal for scum to choose to clear. Just scum read enough for it to be plausible, while not someone you fear giving leader ship reigns too.

[Lukewarm]

I am in favor of VP's plan.

We lim Johnny. Appoint the scummiest based on his flip and overthrow. The plothole is, what incentive does Shea have to comply?

But also, if a single scum gets into the kings guard they just... do a hidden vote to not over thrown.

"The scummiest" player is now king. Congrats.

[Lukewarm]

They can do public votes and hidden votes. Which ever is submitted last is used.

So scum can easily lie about their votes

[Lukewarm]

Meh I can buy town Datisi doing Mastina.

I was railing hard against the Mastina scum assumption and when the council should be overthrown on my death that’s not as viable.

I suspect investments is code for “give scum team tons of shit”

Okay, but I don't think that that makes her a first priority cop check. Like, he was in the council chat where *he* was the one who vrought up the fact that tsq is acetic right now, and people were discussing the possibility of a dead tsq over the night phase via overthrow. And he didn't think it worth getting a check on the next in line to be king? When that very person is in his strongest scum reads?

Mastin feels much more like the platonic ideal for scum to choose to clear. Just scum read enough for it to be plausible, while not someone you fear giving leader ship reigns too.

Noted but I think not fearing townMastina in charge is a mistake scum make…a lot.

Start of game her reads usually well suck.

But after that it’s like eventually when that trigger is found that caused her to be wrong she gets right of town.

Obviously if you are comparing clearing mastina vs not clearing mastina, not clearing mastina is worse.

But if you are scum in Datisis position, you basically have to clear *someone*

[Lukewarm]

They can do public votes and hidden votes. Which ever is submitted last is used.

So scum can easily lie about their votes

Oh that sucks…

I think it is what makes the most sense designwise, if scum have to true claim their overthrow vote every night, then there is not even that much incentive for the commander to aim for a town guard

[Lukewarm]

Oh my slot died, that means fire is mafia probably

Connect the two please?

Fire insisted in my slot to receive the extra power role

Did You receive money Math?

500 which I used to protect Datisi.

My guess is that since doc shot has to be used within first 24 hours it’s possible scum have a boost that tells them who if they spend money.

I called out fire for wanting to bury money as a theory.

I would have done that as scum.

If his goal is to bury money, why not give you 1000?

[Lukewarm]

Math, it feels like you latched onto the idea of burying money, and have not reconsidered based on the new evidence

Namely: Me saying that no money was buried with me.

Like, fire may be scum, but he never buried money with anyone. It was just a theory, and it was wrong lol

[Lukewarm]

I might be wrong on where but there should be an audit. Fire was against claiming past actions with money.

This part literally isn't true.

Furtive said this was the case.

But fire immediately claimed all money expenditures at the start if day 2. He just did it in the council thread instead of the main thread (so furtive did not see it).

With the thread access I have, I feel like he has been pretty direct with where he has put money each night.

The funny thing is that I have been lightly leaning scum on fire this whole game, but this entire angle was invented by furtive taking a joke post by fire as 100% serious, and then being mad that fire claimed the info in the council vs the main thread.

[Lukewarm]

well, i failed in posting what i did last night. But better late than never:
I only gave night action to junko.
Spent almost everything else on investments.

Good news is, we will have more actions tonight.

Before anyone asks, i considered giving cop to dats but i thought cop results are better in later game than early game. So wanted to build a war chest for us now and hopefully junko gets a save to buy more time.

I think this was his first post in any thread after day 2 started

And he then explained his choices too

what changed your mind about the doc?

i thought scum if in here would go for dats thinking i wouldn't pay for the doc because i said this.

for ref i could not afford investments + dats power. I could do investments + either junko/andante/luke. Andante never said how much her ability costs but i suspect it was 500

[Lukewarm]

He repeatedly refused to answer... to furtiveglance... in the main thread.

That is not the same as refusing to be upfront with his gold choices. It was right there, in a thread you had access to lol

[Lukewarm]

Oh, I also am not sold on one of fire+datisi having to be town.

Not sure I follow that logic

I can see a world where the investments thing was fake, and actually that money just went to datisi night 1 but they did not want to clear anyone

[Lukewarm]

Side note:

I think the decision to give the tracker to the doc was a pretty dumb choice.

Like, maybe second worst choice after giving it to the cop x.x

[Lukewarm]

He repeatedly refused to answer... to furtiveglance... in the main thread.

That is not the same as refusing to be upfront with his gold choices. It was right there, in a thread you had access to lol

He refused to answer when I asked in council thread though.

Like?.

The answers were right there in the council thread. Like I just quoted his first post of day 2 stating clearly what his actions were lol

[Lukewarm]

@pooky

Does a nat 20 or a nat 1 result in a death?

[Lukewarm]

I just realised that scum has been NKing every single Town Tracker.
One would think that they're trying to get a scum Tracker.

Maybe.

I thought it meant that they did not want the tracker to be able to track a scum pr on the council. But trying to get the tracker in the hands of a scum on the council would male sense too.

[Lukewarm]

ok wait, TSQ is allowed to go "enchant is town cause towny vibes" but I replace out and that instantly made me a SR in TSQ's books? he was calling me town all game... yet I wasn't allowed to be King... This HAS to be a scum king, like, why hasn't he been overthrown if he's town? these people are wild

He was starting to scum read you right before your rep out, because it seemed (?) like he misread one of your posts.

[Lukewarm]

You were pretty obviously town tho, tbh

[Lukewarm]

We have 2260 right now in the bank.

Now that a number has been said, I think fire should claim all gold numbers. Starting numbers, how much spent on investments each night, how much of a return they got.

Like, now that a hard number has been said, the big secret it kind if out imo, and he should out the whole accounting log to be scrutinized

[Lukewarm]

Imagine if there were no investments and he just made it all up to deny this town cop checks

you are evil bear

i mean he claimed n1 that he bought some brothels and night two that he bought some hookers. and now hes saying theres a wizard with a magic box. its p lit.

Seeing as how this is *not* what fire claimed, it does feel like what the mod gave fire as options and what options fire has told us do not align

(He claimed he got animals AND brothels both night 1, and claimed he was offered horse shoes for those horses and/or slaves for the brothels on night 2 (and he bought neither))

[Lukewarm]

JohnnyFarrar is aligned with the

Town

[Lukewarm]

@pooky

Can I request a reveal of what the scum team gets out of each council role in here? Am curious, but also aware it doesn't flip, and don't *really* want to wait til the end of the entire game?

Maybe let us vote for one each phase in here?

[Lukewarm]

VOTE: hand of the king

[Lukewarm]

Poor Johnny.
I think that Shea is probably scum.

Maybe.

I would not be shocked if he was, but I am not sold.

Lots of things that I still feel would be odd to have come from scum!tsq this game.

[Lukewarm]

There seems to be a decent chance we will find out soon, regardless of his alignment though.

[Lukewarm]

I am a bit sad though because I put Johnny in my scumpool and Firebringer in the Townblock.
And I don't TR Firebringer anymore and I ended up being wrong on Johnny.

Not surprised if it’s just Shea and FB and Shea put someone unable to not hyperpost as Prince.

But more just praying for an overthrow here.

When TSQ appointed the Johnny slot as Prince, it was piloted by Unwnd.

I don't think that town!Unwnd would have been my first choice as prince if I was scum tbh

[Lukewarm]

That was actually in the list of things that I thought would have been weird to come from scum!tsq in the earlier post

[Lukewarm]

Titus has read like 10% of this game prove me wrong

I think that is just an objectively true fact lol

[Lukewarm]

I still feel good about Baltat from this interaction

[Lukewarm]

Supporters thread is saying that firbringer has a past reputation of leaving dance games with their partner. Which would make the hesitancy to duel surprising

[Lukewarm]

Supporters thread is saying that firbringer has a past reputation of leaving dance games with their partner. Which would make the hesitancy to duel surprising

Are they talking about town!Firebringer's reputation?

Yeah

It is almost always against win con for a scum to leave a dance game

[Lukewarm]

Go on then

Accept Firebringer's challenge

FINALLY SOME ACTION

Where is pooky!

[Lukewarm]

tbh, I was always of the opinion that you were definitely town and that GL could be scum.

Although there were a few people that were refusing to read you two independently from one another (*subtweets Mastina and Drapion*)

[Lukewarm]

My scum read on GL has softened somewhat since I have died though. Moved from "he is scum" to "uncertain"

[Lukewarm]

Yeah, my datisi suspicions have passed my GL suspicions as well.

So, I think if "scum killed because tracker" then it points most to Datisi, I feel like it was pretty easy to put together that if I was funded the same day he was funded, I was tracking him. And presumably, what ever PR he gained as scum, the ideal target would not be an ideal cop target too.

Just saw that Datisi copped Mastina, and I lowkey want to call it a scum claim

(Also, killing tracker points to scum!tisi)

Just gonna say again, that Datisis cop check feels like a scum claim.

Checking mastina, instead of making sure that the master of coin (man controlling all the prs) is town feels pretty ???

Checking mastina, instead of LLD who is both a bigger threat (if scum) and a better potential leader (if town) is ???

And like. Even if we assume these are real reads

1. town: me, baltar, guiltylion, andresvmb - i will not be spending time explaining this.

2. probably town: firebringer, titus, mathblade, enchant, shea, andante

3. uhhhh: lady lambdadelta, dannflor

4. scummy vibes: furtiveglance, drapion

5. scum: roden, unowen, mastina, johnny

Checking mastina instead of Johnny, The Crowned Prince of Westeros is pretty ???

Meh I can buy town Datisi doing Mastina.

I was railing hard against the Mastina scum assumption and when the council should be overthrown on my death that’s not as viable.

I suspect investments is code for “give scum team tons of shit”

Okay, but I don't think that that makes her a first priority cop check. Like, he was in the council chat where *he* was the one who vrought up the fact that tsq is acetic right now, and people were discussing the possibility of a dead tsq over the night phase via overthrow. And he didn't think it worth getting a check on the next in line to be king? When that very person is in his strongest scum reads?

Mastin feels much more like the platonic ideal for scum to choose to clear. Just scum read enough for it to be plausible, while not someone you fear giving leader ship reigns too.

[Lukewarm]

Baltar was my number 1 choice for King day 1, so seeing his flip makes me feel better a little lol

[Lukewarm]

If GL is scum here, he is doing a very good job. There are many posts from him I would not expect from scum. I think my hare brained datisi scum world is more likely than that.

Also, I think that on a scum!firebringer flip, GL's recent push there would be enough for me to go from uncertain to town on GL. And I do think that firebringer is scum atm. So, I am already kind of prepared to say that I was wrong lol

[Lukewarm]

we all as town failed to trust eachother and come to the boring conclution that in fact we were rolling the scum team

I have to stop thinking that mafia players are capable I guess

I currently think it is FireB + Datisi

So they were both doing pretty well for themselves, so I am not really sure that this is necessarily the right conclusion to draw from the game lol

[Lukewarm]

If it really is Datisi + Fire, then my day 1 reads reads list would make me happy

Spoiler:

4.Andresvmb
6. Andante
8. VPBaltar
17. Junkochan
18. Lady Lambdadelta

7. Thestatusquo
20. Bellaphant

2. Titus
3. PenguinPower
9. Dannflor
10. Unowen
11. GuiltyLion
14. Charloux
16. mastina
21. Enchant

1. Rhaenyra
12.

Firebringer

13.

Dwlee99

15.

Datisi

19. ProfessorDrapion

[Lukewarm]

I think that Datisi is scum if he doesn't get NKed soon.

Literally can’t be NK’d whatever his alignment without funding the doc.
Not funding doc and cop = scum claim

From my understanding we did not have a doc last night, and the cop still was not killed

[Lukewarm]

From with the timing for when Johnny died, I thought Mastina would not be able to doctor since she was not made Grand Maester until after Firebringer would have submitted his action to distribute gold.

Did gold offered to Johnny pass on to mastina, or?

[Lukewarm]

I feel like you are judging it a little prematurely since we don't know what scum PR abilities do, so they totally could have counterplay in there.

And that is on top of the counter play of Being the Cop, or Being the Doc, or Being the Accountant, or Being the King that we do know

[Lukewarm]

I think that Datisi is scum if he doesn't get NKed soon.

Literally can’t be NK’d whatever his alignment without funding the doc.
Not funding doc and cop = scum claim

From my understanding we did not have a doc last night, and the cop still was not killed

Doesn’t matter.

If scum kill the cop on day not protected then it’s revealed scum in council, council gets overthrown.

Nominate cop doctor and money and problem repeats.

My assumption that the doc could not protect the cop was based on public knowledge in the main thread, and so it would not mean anything wrt the council

[Lukewarm]

I feel like you are judging it a little prematurely since we don't know what scum PR abilities do, so they totally could have counterplay in there.

And that is on top of the counter play of Being the Cop, or Being the Doc, or Being the Accountant, or Being the King that we do know

Setup is open in the OP? So no scum PRs unless on council though. If I follow correctly

Mod said there was hidden scum roles if they got into the council

[Lukewarm]

Small council positions in the hands of the mafia faction may unlock special "bonus" abilities that are not known to you but will be known to the mafia faction - a king must choose his advisors wisely.

[Lukewarm]

@Pooky, how was mastina able to be funded if she was not made Grand Maester until after the end of the day, when the Master of Coin has to choose who to fund prior to the end of the day?

[Lukewarm]

Small council positions in the hands of the mafia faction may unlock special "bonus" abilities that are not known to you but will be known to the mafia faction - a king must choose his advisors wisely.

Again so what? This doesn’t matter to town.

The optimal strategy is to just check out until Elo like LLD is doing.

You were arguing that scum did not have counter play, similar to the disloyal vig game that you and I were both in.

I was saying that we don't know what counter play options are available to them.

[Lukewarm]

@Pooky, how was mastina able to be funded if she was not made Grand Maester until after the end of the day, when the Master of Coin has to choose who to fund prior to the end of the day?

funding is tied to the role not the player

ohhhhh

If someone has both tracker and doctor, do they get to choose which they are using, or are the funds locked into the role by the master of coin?

[Lukewarm]

they'd get to pick which role to use

If the funding is tied to the role, and not the player, then if a player was the doc and the tracker, and had 1,000 gold when they died.

Then the king names 2 different people tracker and doc, then how do you determine which role the funds follow?

[Lukewarm]

one cop is not that powerful in a 21p game especially when it isn't even alignment locked

One good cop is 5-6 clears in elo.

Elim on second to last day. Then boom 90% of game solved

It feels like you are ignoring all possible ways that scum have to counter this, and then saying that it is unbalanced.

Scum!Cop is faking results
Scum!King choses the cop to begin with
Scum!Master of coin claims they cannot fund the cop and doc every day. (or conversely, a town!master of coin really can't fund both every single day, and so they cannot get the number of results you are thinking they can get)
Scum!Doc gives a poison vial to the cop, and claims that scum must have a strongman ability now
Scum!Jailkeeper targets the cop and claims they targetted someone else.

And that is before you get to possible secret scum abilities that might exist, like roleblocker, strongman, or redirector. (redirector actually seems like a pretty thematically correct role for a scum!master of whispers tbh)

I personally feel like not knowing the scum abilities nor the actually gold amounts from the master of coins leaves me unable to make a judgement call on it.

[Lukewarm]

they'd get to pick which role to use

If the funding is tied to the role, and not the player, then if a player was the doc and the tracker, and had 1,000 gold when they died.

Then the king names 2 different people tracker and doc, then how do you determine which role the funds follow?

gold gets distributed at the eod after the execution in like a cleanup phase

Wait, I am dumb.

I was thinking about banked gold, but now I seem to remember reading that the gold has to be spent the night it is received.

It makes sense now lol

[Lukewarm]

today might be elo

Wild

I am trying to wrap my head around how it could be elo with us at 14 alive, and 4 scum lol

Like. Miselim + night kill + Kingsguard overthrow of a town king and town prince is 4 deaths max, right?

That would be 10 alive, with 4 scum

[Lukewarm]

poisoned potion is 5 kills

Because Mastina has both the Prince role and the Doc role, we cannot count both a town!Prince death and a poison kill.

So, lets see. Scum Mastina with doc and prince.

Miselim.
Night kill
Poison kill.
Town!Shea overthown by kingsguard.


Tomorrow is 10 alive with 4 scum, scum mastina king.

she instashoots to end the day.
Night kill.
Parity.

So if this is scum!doc!prince!mastina, we could actually be in elo

(does require the kingsguard to overthrow, but still)

[Lukewarm]

if shea is scum you don't really need to overthrow anyone :3

I am not tracking where enough kills come from in that scenario

[Lukewarm]

Datisi chainsawing for firebringer is doing nothing to stop me from thinking it's the two of them

[Lukewarm]

Think LLD suggesting to kill Datisi is town, but not sure now is the time to be thinking of that. In theory mastina should be getting killed tonight and Datisi gets another cop check tomorrow.

By the way. Was going to lay this out here before. But we aint having this happen.
Fireisred might want to jailkeep Mastina to protect her and or mastina give Titus the potion.
No protection for dats tonight. I don't think scum are going to have incentive to kill dats just because they are going to hyper latch onto this last bit paranoia on dats to hope for a mislim.

Therefore we go for protecting the confirmed town instead and wreck scum plans.

Everyone on board with that?

ooooooh, SPICY

yeah, i feel like scum ain't gonna shoot me either since either they'll think it's a protect, or i'm a possible misyeet

i'm not able to mechanically think it through completely rn but i do like the sound of it

Scum firebringer +datisi+ mastina CONFIRMED.

Trying to set up that poison kill they need to just win lmao

[Lukewarm]

I think people default him to town the same way they default me to scum

I default him to unsortable, and hope that if he is scum his partners spew him x.x

[Lukewarm]

The lack of

"Maybe we should not say this definitively out loud in a thread with 3 people whose alignments are not confirmed to me"

From datisi is incredibly suspicious imo

[Lukewarm]

Just opened the council again, and lmao

Everyone on board with that?

I do think that the scum aren't going to try and kill the cop as long as they can't get the doctor position and as long as they have no scum on the council. As long as both of those are true, they're probably gonna kill every council position

except

the cop. So, yes. It has a fairly high chance of stopping the scum kill.

I am really shocked that they are all 3 going in on this plan, instead of even one of them showing hesitancy

[Lukewarm]

Like, "the doc aiming at people other then the cop" is for sure a decent strategy to consider, but like.

For the doc. Alone. Without saying. To consider lol


And if you ARE going to say it out loud, you said "hey doc, if you get funded flip a coin to aim between datisi or another memeber of the council "

And don't say "we are for sure not protecting the cop today lole"

[Lukewarm]

well he makes a good point that if the scum shoot him then they would be conftowning two players so what even is the utility of protecting him atp

Not a single one of the three of them made this argument in the council thread.

I think you might be mixing it up with what they are saying in the scum chat lol

[Lukewarm]

I think enchant got bored with the day dragging on lol

[Lukewarm]

I kind of think scum enchant would have hammered the first time tbh

[Lukewarm]

fireisred, feel free to jailkeep me.
Maybe we have fireisred jailkeep me and mastina heals fireisred?

Sure thing!

Hmmm

[Lukewarm]

(Inb4 I am just wrong and getting completely confirmation biased by this)

[Lukewarm]

It just will blow my mind if all three of fire, dats, and mastina are town who all individually came to the decision that definitively aiming both protectives of the night in the council pt is a Good Plan, with none of them thinking maybe it should be done a little more subtly, just in case.

[Lukewarm]

I mean, demotivated mafia hoping the replacement actually plays and then doesn't show. Awkward spot for mafia.

Pedit:about enchant

I think, that enchant thinks, that not hammering a partner when able would out him as mafia.

I don't think that it is a true statement, but I kind of think he thinks that it is.

[Lukewarm]

Challenge: Drapion

Accept

.....


I don't know if I would rather Pooky say this is not an acceptable challenge, or to read pooky's flavor of drapion fighting himself.

[Lukewarm]

do we want to kill datisi today?

I'm very interested in killing Datisi today actually...I just had a thought

Save us cop!cleared!lld!

Frankly, with 3 clears under his belt, datisi should probably die even if town, just to prove his clears. We don't even lose the cop, since it can be reassigned.

Imo, datisi should challenge his top 2 scum reads today, and then go from there

[Lukewarm]

If we assume we live in a world where dats is town, and therefore all of his clears town, killing dats today still seems pretty good tbh.

Titus is currently on the council with only one role.

So they can literally just hand the cop to a confirmed town, plant the doc protect on her, and trust all of dats clears AND all of Titus's clears.

[Lukewarm]

I would like to say that my day 1 strat of "we should just make LLD an IC, because she will be super motivated to just carry this whole game for us" feels like it is being proven true

I am a master of strategy

[Lukewarm]

So, I think if "scum killed because tracker" then it points most to Datisi, I feel like it was pretty easy to put together that if I was funded the same day he was funded, I was tracking him. And presumably, what ever PR he gained as scum, the ideal target would not be an ideal cop target too.

[Lukewarm]

I feel like

"Scum!cop is scared that a tracker will plant themselves on them" is a pretty self contained explanation for most of this games kills lol

[Lukewarm]

"Scum!cop is scared that a tracker will plant themselves on them" is a pretty self contained explanation for most of this games kills lol

this was literally never our worry lmao

Did you actually visit mastina, Titus, and lld?

[Lukewarm]

obv not, i wasn't visiting there during the nights when we knew a tracker *could* be a problem. it just so happened that we were oftentimes killing the tracker, and then realized that hey, the tracker is dying, i don't have to visit my target.

the super sekrit scum powers have been a disappointment, though

I feel like the asking you if you wanted to drink the doctors potions was pretty strong for scum tbh.

The doctor could never fake you out and protect the tracker without you knowing the protection was off of you.

[Lukewarm]

obv not, i wasn't visiting there during the nights when we knew a tracker *could* be a problem. it just so happened that we were oftentimes killing the tracker, and then realized that hey, the tracker is dying, i don't have to visit my target.

the super sekrit scum powers have been a disappointment, though

Multiple scum on council confirmed

I think pooky said that the scum knew all of the secret powers in advance ?

But yeah, it does look that way

[Lukewarm]

d have to do the math, but I wonder if town should overthrow tonight to lim Shea and mastina.

The issue with this plan, is that if a single scum exists in the kingsguard, then this plan instead results in a king!mastina, instead of a dead mastina

[Lukewarm]

There's only two in kingsguard tonight I think? That'd be a scum claim.

I didn't realize it was down to that small!

[Lukewarm]

I would almost feel bad for the scum team if they end up losing just because mastina was not able to log on in time to just instant execute

[Lukewarm]

I would almost feel bad for the scum team if they end up losing just because mastina was not able to log on in time to just instant execute

Feel like scums spot was pretty bad even if she does get one off.

I don't think that they were in an excellent spot, but I think the scum in the kingsguard just accepting mastinas death for town cred would have been infinitely better then then narrowing the pool onto "the people in the kingsguard" and mastina dying without the bonus kill anyways.

I kind of assume if they did save mastina, then they did some kind of math wrt the kills

[Lukewarm]

That is now defunct

[Lukewarm]

one more thing.

Mafia is genuinely destroying my life. I've been late for work, skipped workouts, missed out on meals, missed out on hygiene, skipped out on doing things with friends and communities to play...it's not worth it.

I already knew about that from my townplay.
But this game is proving it true for my scumplay too.

So like. mastina just needs to go away. For how long, I dunno.
But I need to not be around.

Mastina, I have over all enjoyed my interactions with you on site.

Seeing this made me want to share an except of something I sent to someone else when they were debating retireing from mafia games.

"Hobbies should be fun, and you should have fun doing them. Of course, everything will have less then fun moments, but if there are not more positive, fun times in the experience, then the frustrating, anti-fun times in the experience, then that is a problem.

For me personally, the Positive Experiences are more frequent then the Negative Experiences, which is why I am still signing up for games

But I also know several people who don't feel that way. The frustrations, whether is be from getting misread/miselimed, not listened to, or when games can get toxic, end up being a sum-total more then the sum-total positives feeling of trying to solving the puzzle as town or fighting for the scum win or just being online with people you like.

While I someone who does enjoy playing Forum Mafia, I am of the opinion that if the frustrations are more then the positives, then I think that not playing can be the right decision on a personal level. Hobbies should be fun, and should be over all positive experiences!"

If you are feeling like the negatives are more then the positives, while it would feel odd to not see you on site, on a personal level I hope that you prioritize spending time on things that generate an overall positive experience for you in your life.

If that means stopping signing up for mafia games, I would fully support you making that decision. And if you ever think that your situation or perspecitve has changed enough that mafia games would be a net positive for you again, I would be happy to see you back then too

<3

[Lukewarm]

So you'd need to select an unconfirmed player with Datisi dead (and role assigned to existing council) + council member killed.

At the time that datisi was killed, Titus only had the lord commander role. So, it was the perfect time to hand the reigns of the cop over to her.

Titus being "cleared" by Datisi with only one council role, was a pretty big factor in my mind on the calculus of killing Datisi.

I think that killing Datisi was the right play, even if it turned out that Datisi was town tbh.

[Lukewarm]

{snip}

I get that losing Datisi there was frustrating, but I fundamentally disagree with most of what you are saying here.

I think that there was solid reason to think that Datisi could be scum, enough that he was still in the PoE for a lot of players. If everyone town read Datisi, I think that they would have been disinclined to actually kill him there. But a lot of people had him in a scum lean to null range, and therefore were open to the option of this plan (Also, Enchant very explicitly scum read Datisi, so your note about him is not accurate at all)

Also, comparing it to a vig yolo shooting a cop claim is disingenuous, because the town KNEW that they were not going to lose the cop PR either way.

The

worst case scenario

was not very bad at all for the town.

Yes, you did a miselim, but in doing so you move the cop PR from "slot that is in the POE" to a "slot that is confirmed town" -- while also confirming all of their prior results.

You lose ZERO cop results in this scenario, because the new cop can fire the same night after you kill the current cop, and the protectives can skill keep the new cop safe. --- This is a huge factor in this game that is absent in your yolo vig comparison.

The worst case scenario was not punishing to town, and therefore the risk-reward was skewd towards the kill making tactical sense.

[Lukewarm]

Enchant didn't (he just did what Enchant does).

Like, I know he was not out casing him, but Enchant was scum reading Datisi specifically for a lot of this game.

Spoiler:

Subject: House of the Dragon - Day Six

Datisi is scum

Subject: House of the Dragon - Day Six

VOTE: Datisi

I just do it actually

Subject: House of the Dragon - Day Six

I don't believe in Datisi

Subject: House of the Dragon - Day Six

Datisi, i challenge you to Trial of Combat

Subject: House of the Dragon - Day Six

I could institute my own trial by combat where i make two people play a game and then execute the one who loses.

That sounds way more fun than this mechanic.

I agree.

Execute Datisi if he refuses again.

Subject: House of the Dragon - Day Six

VOTE: Datisi

Subject: House of the Dragon - Day Six

Challenge: Datisi

Subject: House of the Dragon - Day Six

Eh, i kinda want to kill datisi, but i am really reluctant, like what if he IS town somehow

Subject: House of the Dragon - Day Six

I BELIEVE KING IS TOWN BUT I DON'T THINK HE IS RELIABLE DAMNIT

Enchant, can we do a trust trade?

Trust me on this vote, and tomorrow, whatever vote you want to achieve I will support it within reason.

I am that certain this is the correct play.

I want to exe Datisi. But i want to also do some damage control in case he IS town. Somehow.

Let's be blunt, i don't believe Datisi is town. Yet it's still possible.

[Lukewarm]

You seem to place a lot more value in having an all town council then I do.

Like, if Datisi flipped town then the likelihood of an all town council DOES go up dramatically, making Fire1, Fire2 and TSQ all more likely to be town (on top of you and titus being confirmed).

But like, if someone else is added to the council, the council just... doesn't plan their targets in the council thread until after Titus has checked that person

[Lukewarm]

Scum overthrow the king + kill one of the double-council players, say the doctor/prince.
That leads to no king, no prince, with only 3 conftown alive (Titus+LLD+the cop check), and an entire new council to select:
New King (chance for scum), new Prince (chance for scum), new doctor (chance for scum).

People are not added to the council every time that council members die.

In the scenario that you just described, I believe only 2 people would be added to the council, not 3. 1 new king, and 1 new prince.

That would be king LLD and prince!who ever Titus checked that night

But regardless, an over thrown would out 2 out of the 3 members of the kings guard as scum. And since confirmed town Titus is the lord commander, she would know exactly who they were.

This is not the argument you think it is.

[Lukewarm]

Like, the scum could possibly Not Protect the King, and then kill there. But that would just move Confirmed Town Mastina to be the king, because they cannot kill BOTH the king AND the Prince on the same day, without literally outing two of their members.

[Lukewarm]

Double powers death + king = 3 powers, not two.

At not point have I seen it said that a "double powers death" results in an extra person being added to the council.

The only way that I know that people get added to the council are:

-The king dies, a new prince is added
-The prince dies, a new prince is added
-The Lord Commander dies, a new lord commander is added.

A 100% over throw happens (which can not happen with confirmed town titus as the lord commander)

The doctor dying does not add another person to the council.

[Lukewarm]

If you are assuming a world of all town council, then the scum have 2 paths.

1) killing one person at a time, and the new opening is repeatedly filled with the newest clear from Titus

2) outing themselves by over throwing the king. This kills 2 council members, but we have 2 new clears at that point (LLD + the newest clear from Titus). This OUTS BOTH SCUM and does not get scum onto the council.

Pedit: No. If the council gets to small, then we end up with PRs that we cannot use.

[Lukewarm]

the King

may

give their duties to another member of the small council

This says to me that the king always had the choice to not assign a role to someone, because otherwise this would say must

[Lukewarm]

MAD PRINCE

Enchant is great

[Lukewarm]

Assigning council positions to those already ON the council is optional.

I do see that the may/must give out roles is not consistent, but I am really unsure how you get that ^^ from this

King Shea must

pick a small council member

to take over Lukewarm's duties

There is no ambiguity in this that would allow for him to have been able to choose someone off council.

[Lukewarm]

Mastina, I disagree that the kingsguard mechanics would offer the double kill regularly (since it requires a majority, and once they have been in once during an over thrown they would not be let back in unless they reached the point of being literally no other choices)

But lets assume that you are right, and the scum team get 2 kills every single night guranteed.

Datisi has died, it is now night 6, 12 alive, 9v3

-Scum kill twice : 7v3
-Town kills scum: 7v2
-scum kill twice: 5v2
-town kills scum: 5v1
-scum kills twice: 3v1
-town kills scum: TOWN WINS.

Town wins the race, and they have aim assist on thanks to the many clears from the Dats flip + all of the future results from Titus + scum outing their presence in the kingsguard.

And this ignores any potential doctor saves, and ignores any potential jailkeeper saves, both of which would become higher priority PRs to fund the further into the game you get.


You seem to think that the town should have been so scared of this exact scenario, that they would be afraid of killing Datisi?

[Lukewarm]

Enchant didn't (he just did what Enchant does).

Like, I know he was not out casing him, but Enchant was scum reading Datisi specifically for a lot of this game.

Spoiler:

Subject: House of the Dragon - Day Six

Datisi is scum

Subject: House of the Dragon - Day Six

VOTE: Datisi

I just do it actually

Subject: House of the Dragon - Day Six

I don't believe in Datisi

Subject: House of the Dragon - Day Six

Datisi, i challenge you to Trial of Combat

Subject: House of the Dragon - Day Six

I could institute my own trial by combat where i make two people play a game and then execute the one who loses.

That sounds way more fun than this mechanic.

I agree.

Execute Datisi if he refuses again.

Subject: House of the Dragon - Day Six

VOTE: Datisi

Subject: House of the Dragon - Day Six

Challenge: Datisi

Subject: House of the Dragon - Day Six

Eh, i kinda want to kill datisi, but i am really reluctant, like what if he IS town somehow

Subject: House of the Dragon - Day Six

I BELIEVE KING IS TOWN BUT I DON'T THINK HE IS RELIABLE DAMNIT

Enchant, can we do a trust trade?

Trust me on this vote, and tomorrow, whatever vote you want to achieve I will support it within reason.

I am that certain this is the correct play.

I want to exe Datisi. But i want to also do some damage control in case he IS town. Somehow.

Let's be blunt, i don't believe Datisi is town. Yet it's still possible.

enchant scumread me in the recent large where i was a mason too. highly doubt his scumread of me is actually indicative of anything.

I felt like mastina was discrediting the votes on you based on them being all mech/survival based. Instead of reads/ dayplay based.

I was saying that that was very untrue for enchant.

(I also am not ignoring people's correct reads I'm one game, because of an incorrect read in another, since then I would not be able to feel good about scum reading you this game since I scum read you incorrectly in The Thing lol)

[Lukewarm]

I was not saying that enchant was some kind of datisi whisperer lol