Open 714: Tit for Tat [Game Over]

[Mathdino]

Look us talking into the wind doesn't help anyone
What matters is influencing each other to get our reads across and improve them
Which also reveals agenda

I feel like you purposefully don't take others reads into account when generating your own, but also expect others to take stock in your ISOs

Two way street
Just feels like you're talking just to talk
I'll take a look though

Edit: man we're literally talking about my 2 examples of this, I'm not handholding you through my entire process

[Luca Blight]

No, we talked through two examples of you talking out of your arse.

You made out I was scumreading NSG when I wasn't.

You made out my Pin read was bad, I explained it was based on his Gamma stance.

Tell me what's unfounded exactly.

[Mathdino]

K yeah I'm intentionally cutting off this conversation sorrynotsorry

Lemme go look at pintus Gamma stance

[Luca Blight]

You just proved you're even reading the ISO's you're slating so much, otherwise you'd have seen the Gamma stance already.

[Luca Blight]

You just proved you're not even reading the ISO's you're slating so much, otherwise you'd have seen the Gamma stance already.

EBWOP

[Mathdino]

Dude I also iso'd pintu not long ago, stop being an ass about everything

Sorry for the late reply, busy weekend. My problem with you is that I really have problems reading you! In our last game together was the same thing, I got you as a null/scumlean since I replaced in. No, I don't see any of your post as townie, but that clearly is my problem. The thing is, in this game I do have posts from you that makes me believe this time you are indeed scum, especially your interactions with others trying to defend me when I've given enough reasons to make the others believe I'm scum (I explained this in my wall post).

Let me explain my reasoning: I said at the begining of the game that the only two people I know before this game are TGP and you; knowing this, you could exploit this information to make me trust you as I would have difficulties trusting anyone else. But a better way to put it:
If you were scum: two options, you try to build a wagon on me as I'm playing in a different way I played in our game together and say things like "newb!scum, doesn't interact directly, posts too little, etc"; the second option would be the one I'm saying, trying to pocket me to win my trust and "get an easy townread from the newbie"
If you were town: two options, you try to build a wagon on me... you know were this is going: the second option would be... none. Why defending me as town if I really didn't give reasons to be defended?

So my conclusion is: if you were town, I would've expected you pushing me and nothing else from you. You didn't, I scumread you. But yes, I do really have trouble reading you, but I have to follow my instinct and reasoning even if I'm not completely sure

This is just a long-winded explanation of a simple "i think you're scum pocketing me"
And "you shouldn't have reasons to townread me so why defend me"
It just feels overjustified
There's nothing particularly complex or nuanced here

[Luca Blight]

You're the one being a dick continuously making out my play is bad.

Anyway, I will explain why I townread that post in a bit, have to take care of my son atm.

[Luca Blight]

Pin is justified in his feeling of being pocketed. The fact he's pushing this point seems townie to me, especially from a newer player, and I like the thought-process he describes.

Math's just dismissing it without even acknowledging the

reasons

for why he feels he's being pocketed, which seems scummy to me.


Anyway I'm sick of this guy twisting my words and generally dismissing everything I say, so yeah...

VOTE: Math

[Aneninen]

Mobepost.
I saw NSG asking things. When I have time I'll answer them.
Also Luca's questions if it's still needed.

[Luca Blight]

A parody of Math from that argument, in his own style:


Luca:

*iso's NSG*

Math: WAIT THAT'S NOT SCUMMY, NOTHING YOU THINK IS SCUMMY IS SCUMMY

Luca: Hold on, I'm not actually scumreading her-

MATH: YOU THROW SHADE ON EVERYONE YOUR CONTENT IS BAD

Luca: But I just townread Pin-

Math: THAT WAS BAD AS WELL EVERYTHING YOU DO IS BAD

Luca: But I liked his stance on Gamm-

Math: YOU'RE WRONG IT WAS BAD

[Gamma Emerald]

anyway do you not feel the same way about gamma?

I guess I'm townreading Gamma most because of his activity rn.

Why my activity specifically?

How does asking this question benefit town?

Because it was such a weird tell I wondered where it came from

[Mathdino]

That was good, I lol'd

[jmo16mla]

Reading now.

[Aneninen]

@Northsidegal

.

There's a general answer for everything you asked.

In early-game, my reads are usually based upon small things. Gut, meta (no matter how old it is), general tells, my tells explained on the Wiki, reactions, phrasing, whatever.
These reads are generally flexible and I tend to reconsider them later. I still post them, not only to keep the game going, but also because the reactions I get. Sometimes a half-baked reason for a vote provocates a scummy reaction (which confirms my read) or a very town reaction (which makes me drop my scumread).
As the game progresses, there will be more information. More content, flips, associations, PR-actions. Reads based upon these are obviously stronger.

These boil down to the fact, that there are things which I consider important or "big" tell eg. early-Day1, but not informative eg. on Day3. Sometimes even my early- and late gameplay are entirely different. In other words, I'm typically a slow player who gains momentum later. I know it sounds lame

now

, but my early-gameplay is weak, whereas my late-gameplay is strong. (Which makes me an average player, regardless of my alignment.)

This, and many other things can be found in my Team Mafia game (already linked once). You needn't read my whole ISO there to see how different my Day1 and my Day2 were.

And now, the specific answers.

No, it's not impossible, but yet again, I've seen scum saying such things with the same meaning: "I'm not scummy, it's just my playstyle". (This is especially common whenever scum get too many scumreads very early. When there are no real cases to respond to and no low-hanging fruit townies to push yet.)

you didn't actually answer the more important part:

if not, do you think it's more likely to come from scum than town? if so, why? if not, then why treat it as a scumtell?

This was about Mutant, as far as I can remember.
It was scummy, because I've seen this kind of reasoning from scum many times before.
Now, apply the part above for this. I haven't played with Mutantdevle yet, so I don't know what sort of player he is. I've seen posts like those of him from scum. Therefore, this is scummy.

But

, it was a "relatively big" tell only because it was on early-Day1. Not because it would sound differently on eg. Day3. But, by that time we'd have much more content from Mutant. Most probably, I would have a read on him based upon bigger things. I don't think such a post would mean a lot compared to those "bigger things".

I'm not sure if I can comprehend this question well.

basically, why does their argument being about playstyle differences actually make them town?

Yet again, early-Day1.
I saw a wall-war between Luca and Mathdino. The parts I checked were about playstyle, eg. "is meta useful", "L–1 claiming", etc. I thought it was town-vs-town partly because of the content I'd checked, partly gut. And partly something else: I doubted players like them would get involved in such fights as scum. Either of them could have moved on easily.
Also, the "see above" part in practice.

I find Mathdino much scummier now. Most importantly because of something I've already expressed: (1) he had a

PoE

scumread on me, (2) he

didn't even try

to talk to me (and he didn't ask questions either), (3) and he asked others to find

my partners

. If anyone else had done so, a player like Mathdino would

definitely

pointed it out how bad their gameplay had been! So, this gameplay from him was either bad-town or scum, and I don't think Mathdino's usual townplay is bad...
This read now trumps my earlier read based upon that Luca–Mathdino war. (Which might be trumped by something more important later.)
The sad part of this case that it would have been

much more

credible if someone else had posted about it first.

do you make this point about players often? if so, could you just list some games where you remember doing this? you don't have to link me to the post itself or anything.

Definitely.
In the game linked above I had similar "read" on RadiantCowbells. (TL;DR: I don't think I'd be able to sort them on Day1. Let's give him a free pass, if he's town he'll help a lot later, if he's scum we'll catch him later.) He flipped scum anyway.

I guess you'll find more examples in my meta if needed.

[Mathdino]

You think PoE scumhunting is scummy? It's not like I can just read you straight up normally.

I find it difficult to interact with your walls, since I'm not a serial wallposter anymore.

Because I'm hunting by PoE, it makes it all the more important to ensure that any potential scumread has possible partners. If no one really works as a partner, then something about my/Creature's/A50's view of the gamestate is flawed.

[Aneninen]

You think PoE scumhunting is scummy? It's not like I can just read you straight up normally.

I find it difficult to interact with your walls, since I'm not a serial wallposter anymore.

Because I'm hunting by PoE, it makes it all the more important to ensure that any potential scumread has possible partners. If no one really works as a partner, then something about my/Creature's/A50's view of the gamestate is flawed.

1. Do not misrepresent me. PoE-scumhunting, not interacting with your scumread, trying to find a PoE-scumread's partners and getting others to do so are scummy

together

.

2. It might have been better to ignore the next part. But still... whenever I'm nearby anyone can have "semi real time" interaction with me. Without walls. And I don't think you're a player who should complain about wallposts.

3/1.

"Because I'm hunting by PoE, it makes it all the more important to ensure that any potential scumread has possible partners."

=/=

"Find Aneninen partners for me? He just ended a scumgame, PT shows high willingness to bus."

3/2. If you're talking about this game, you were cherry-picking as well. You've completely ignored the fact eg. that I was away from the Day1 scumlynch. In the PT, it was Rb who wanted to bus a lot, not me.

3/3. I don't think there has

ever

been a single game with players with

no

possible scum partners. (Minus PR-confirmed townies.)

4. If those who are scumreading you can find a possible partner for you, will that mean that their view of the gamestate is

correct

? Frankly, what you're saying is pigeon poop.

[Luca Blight]

Anen, vote Math with me.

@mod

- a VC would be appreciated.

[Gamma Emerald]

Honestly I'm kinda tempted to do so myself
to hell with it
VOTE: Mathdino

[Mathdino]

see the thing is when i engage people it tends to start filling up pages with walls
i play by a very "shoot from the hip" mentality

1. Do not misrepresent me. PoE-scumhunting, not interacting with your scumread, trying to find a PoE-scumread's partners and getting others to do so are scummy together.

2. It might have been better to ignore the next part. But still... whenever I'm nearby anyone can have "semi real time" interaction with me. Without walls. And I don't think you're a player who should complain about wallposts.

3/1. "Because I'm hunting by PoE, it makes it all the more important to ensure that any potential scumread has possible partners." =/= "Find Aneninen partners for me? He just ended a scumgame, PT shows high willingness to bus."

3/2. If you're talking about this game, you were cherry-picking as well. You've completely ignored the fact eg. that I was away from the Day1 scumlynch. In the PT, it was Rb who wanted to bus a lot, not me.

3/3. I don't think there has ever been a single game with players with no possible scum partners. (Minus PR-confirmed townies.)

4. If those who are scumreading you can find a possible partner for you, will that mean that their view of the gamestate is correct? Frankly, what you're saying is pigeon poop.

1. PoE scumhunting is a tool I use above literally anything else. You also underestimate the metareading I've been doing behind the scenes (just didn't present that, not really any point).
I didn't really have anything to say to you? You're pretty upfront. Nothing really unclear.
Don't think you're understanding my process, but "getting others to do so" was specifically "getting Creature to do so". I wanted to watch him be gamesolving-Creature, and also make sure that Aneninen-scum would still be consistent with the gamestate.

2. Okay. Is there something you'd like to talk about? I can't participate in the mutant conversation until I've done that metadive. Hell, without having done that, I'm not even sure this is the wagon I'm gonna end the day on. But votes create pressure and reactions.

3/1. I think you're picking apart what I'm saying for inconsistencies here. I wanted to see what kind of gamestate I was looking at in the world of Aneninen-scum. Also wanted to see Creature talk.

3/2. I didn't do any VCA on you that game, nor did I comb through your ISO. I read the mafia PT, and I ctrl+F'd some phrases to check for tells. Thanks for correcting me then.

3/3. See I just disagree with you on that. Sometimes "no possible partners" is exactly how I can tell when a wagon is shit. For example, Gamma-scum doesn't really make much sense with most of the playerlist. Call it an environmental read. The game hasn't progressed in a way I'd expect if Gamma were scum.

4. That's a different logical statement. I'm literally testing for argument by contradiction; I townhunt more than I scumhunt. If you have no possible partners, you're probably not scum, and thus anyone scumreading you has a flawed view of the gamestate. If you DO have possible partners, then it's POSSIBLE you're scum, and people scumreading you have a POSSIBLY correct view of the gamestate.

Like, you're going way out of your way to try to prove me voting you is disingenuous, when my process is basically "jump from wagon to wagon until I find enough town to solve the game".

Creature was a pseudo-wagon, cleared him. NSG wagon got reactions which may confirm her as town pending a thing happening. Gamma wagon gave us valuable VCA. All 3 are likely town. I guess I was part of the jmo-wagon (not really though) and I think his reaction to that early on was fairly town.

Luca-wagon picked up like no steam, neither did Anen-wagon. Reactions weren't exactly townclearing. Hence, scumreads.

[Luca Blight]

Judging people's alignment based on possible partners is a terrible way to play, particularly on D1. Basically any decent scum player is going to slip through your grasp using that method.

You accuse my method of attaining reads of being unfounded, but yours seems absurd to me.

[Mathdino]

*shrugs*
Maybe it's how I'm communicating it then. Works for me. If I know which wagons are bad, I can find which ones might not be.

Like if you're not a PoE townhunting type then obviously you're not gonna get it. I'm not finding scum by possible partners, I'm finding town by lack of possible partners.

I guess the more important question is:
What's my scum motivation in going through this process?

[Luca Blight]

I use PoE as well, but I don't clear players for having no possible partners unless there's real concrete evidence to do so. I just played a game where scum bussed so convincingly D1, no-one would have guessed who the partner was if they weren't watched making the kill.

The scum motivation is obviously to convince people you're genuinely scumhunting, or 'townhunting' as you say. You might really adopt this method, I don't know, but I'm scumreading you regardless. Tbh pretty much from the start of the game, even when I was doing my first skim-through, your tone pinged me and I felt you were trying to powerwolf proceedings. I don't like how you try to dictate where discussion goes, while maintaining the facade of being the 'pro-town' player who wants to hear from everyone. I don't like how you continually twist the words of people who oppose you. I don't believe you're being genuine at all - you hid most of the game behind ill-conceived gambits, meaning your inconsistencies couldn't be held against you. I just think you're scum.

[Luca Blight]

You also have no direction - what have you done recently, apart from argue with me while I was trying to sort the game?

Given you adopted the role of 'town leader', you're pretty much doing f*ck all.

[Mathdino]

And I've got nothing other than telling you that I've gotten that same speech from at least one player in almost every game I play. UnaBombaH, Dunkerdoodles, etc.

Thing is, it's easy to fake that standard vanity scumread on me.
- My tone is manipulative (I'm manipulative as town)
- I try to control the game (what else is new)
- Twisting words (I interpret things the way I do, and given how much I talk, there's always some issue with those interpretations)

I don't think I've done the "guy that wants to hear from everyone" at all this game. I know whose reads I trust. Everyone else I'm kinda just watching and reacting.

Like, your argument (if that's the summarised version of your case) seems to basically be "Mathdino's scum motivation is doing all the things he'd do as town to gain control and look town, but his tone is scummy and not-genuine".

That's just not a good argument though, unless you think you can toneread me (and feel free to check my scumgames vs towngames; I believe I can be read off tone with meta familiarity), or unless you think I'm specifically pushing a scum agenda.

But from your POV, all I've really pushed that you "know" is anti-town is continually discrediting you. Which pisses you off, fine. But that raises all sorts of questions. Why start doing it when it was literally just in reaction to you going after jmo? Why half-ass a case on you? Why keep discrediting you when I'm not pushing you, and that would clearly taunt you into voting me?

Hence my dismissal of scumreads on me based on the idea that people scumreading me are either scum, or are being irrational for one reason or another.

[Luca Blight]

If you get in these 1v1's every game perhaps that says something about you?

Quite clearly you've been twisting my words - earlier you made out pretty much every post I made was 'victimisation', which is complete and utter bollocks. You strip away the context to make it suit your agenda.

It's not just about tone, as you well know. You have been misrepping me and twisting my words for most of the game, and since your 'gambits' you've done jack shit, despite posting a lot of words. You're just existing in the thread - you're not particularly pushing anything.

You want to discredit me presumably because I'm scumreading you, or perhaps just to look busy. You said how bad 1v1's are for town but you needlessly started another by discrediting and misrepping me yet again.