Open 714: Tit for Tat [Game Over]

[pinturicchio]

Not gonna lie, this lynch feels wrong
But I just don't see other viable lynches right now with 3 days on the deadline
I guess A50 could be scum but we're not d1 lynching him
I'm pretty low on townreads :/

Why are "WE" not D1 lynching A50???? Because you say so? Because he's not expendable like me or Aneninen?? That's what's going on this game's D1 tbh. Just kill us already without trying to be sweet with us, if you want to play only with experienced players, don't let us in in the first place.

[pinturicchio]

"Lynching Aneninen feels wrong, but whatever, we're doing it anyway"

[Mathdino]

What?

A50 is a player I have a good record of sorting given time and flips. I can generally tell which players fall under that category. It has nothing to do with experience. I'd just as quickly say we're not d1 lynching Paradox.

[Mathdino]

I'm stuck. I don't believe I'm in a position to canvas votes on players outside the current lynchpool. I especially don't think going after someone like Luca is really going to help anything. All I know is I play better with flips, and I'm working to do that.

End of the day, I'm willing to straight up sheep Creature on this one in absence of solid reads of my own.

[Luca Blight]

Actually, upon re-reading I no longer find Mutant's recent posts Townie: His vote on Anen really reads as though he's trying to distance himself from a mislynch.

His reasoning for suddenly being happy with his vote when initially he wasn't seems jumbled as well, for example; pointing out that Pin hasn't particularly scumread Anen yet voted him, but that's stripping away the context that people were being encouraged to sheep - which is why Mutant himself reluctantly voted Anen in the first place.

How was my vote on Anen distancing myself from a mislynch? Gamma was definitely not getting lynched at that point. Unless you mean my uncertainty in the vote was forged so I wouldn't be criticised for playing a part in an Anen mislynch?

Yes, I was referring more to the latter point, but don't you see the simlarity behind your's and Pintu's vote? Pintu was voting you, which wasn't a viable lynch at the time, so sheeped his town read into voting Anen, as did you.

As for Pintu, I don't think sheeping is acceptable. Ever. Not even when encouraged to and I hate doing it myself. It gives scum a free pass in not having to say their opinion. If you can't give a genuine personal reason as to why you are on a wagon or you are purely piggybacking off of someone else's then, in my eyes, that makes you likely to be scum. If you're going to sheep something like math's plan, then at least say a few words about how you agree with such a plan and why. Don't just walk through a door without a care just because someone is holding it open for you.

Sheeping isn't acceptable, yet you did it yourself? It's also wrong theory-wise, imo; basically 'sheeping' in this context is 'compromising' - there is no way Town can reach a lynch without this, unless there is a ridiculously obvious lynch candidate. Yeah, I guess people could say a few words about Anen while sheeping, but all you said is he's a bit scummy tonally which doesn't massively put you above the others, imo.

[Luca Blight]

End of the day, I'm willing to straight up sheep Creature on this one in absence of solid reads of my own.

...but Creature's voting jmo?

[Mathdino]

I think mutant is town, but whatever.

mutantdevle(3): Aneninen, Gamma, Jay

Looks like a scum counterwagon.

Given that my read on mutant was basically null, that dented my confidence, so back to anen

Creature's jmo vote was made before jmo actually did shit

I await reads on his return

[Luca Blight]

Anen's vote was made ages ago, so obviously not due to countering. Jay has been sheeping anything and everything. Gamma has scumread Mutant for ages. Creature's comment is baseless.

It also ignores that you and A50 basically reignited that wagon.

[Luca Blight]

Like, just because Creature has been right before, it doesn't justify such blind faith in his reads.

I just played a game where he single-handedly lost town the game from a winning position, so I'll be taking his views with a pinch of salt.

[Mathdino]

i've also seen town-him be fairly wrong
but then there's always surreptitious

do you have any better ideas here though
i guess NSG could be scum (and the test actually worked)
also feels like a wrong D1 lynch but she's barely providing any content so idk what's up with that

[pinturicchio]

What?

A50 is a player I have a good record of sorting given time and flips. I can generally tell which players fall under that category. It has nothing to do with experience. I'd just as quickly say we're not d1 lynching Paradox.

Again, WE'RE not d1 lynching Paradox? Good for you if you can sort A50, I don't trust you and your reads as me being in this position is partly because of you. The possibility of you being scum with A50 and winning the game just by saying "hey trust me we are not lynching this guy on D1" is getting more and more plausible. What's going to happen tomorrow? What changes between D1 and D2 for A50? He automatically get's his role pasted on his forehead and it becomes obvious what his alignment is?

I'm tired of your leadership, it's full of manipulation and making the game go the way YOU want, but not the rest. Tired of "I know the best for town" vibe

[Luca Blight]

I'd say if anything was a counter-wagon then it was Pin's, started by NSG based on little or nothing. Her reasons for not wanting an Anen lynch also weren't up to much.

I'm also lacking townreads; I feel Gamma, Creature and Paradox are Town, and that's all I'm comfortable with at the moment. I've also paranoid of a Math/Paradox scumteam, but I'll leave that theory until a later date.

[JaydragonKing]

Anen, it makes little sense to me how you went from "I don't care anymore, you won't listen to me anyway" too "I'll accuse Dino of treason when he has become the face of the town", even with me saying I wanted you to post a readlist. Not really gonna comment on the scumread you have on me. Or that it was me who was the prime advocate of a serious Mutant Lynch early today.

Not gonna lie, this lynch feels wrong
But I just don't see other viable lynches right now with 3 days on the deadline
I guess A50 could be scum but we're not d1 lynching him
I'm pretty low on townreads :/

Why are "WE" not D1 lynching A50???? Because you say so? Because he's not expendable like me or Aneninen?? That's what's going on this game's D1 tbh. Just kill us already without trying to be sweet with us, if you want to play only with experienced players, don't let us in in the first place.

For the final sentence, that part is up to the individual Mods most of the time. But more importantly, the experience part clearly isnt an issue, but clashing personalities from Luca, Dino and such. You've said stuff about your language barrier already, so consider this another barrier you have to break through. The barrier of Loudness, Lurkers, and Lucky Lynches.

[Mathdino]

shit i think i just found a scumtell for NSG

crunching some numbers brb

[Gamma Emerald]

I'd say if anything was a counter-wagon then it was Pin's, started by NSG based on little or nothing. Her reasons for not wanting an Anen lynch also weren't up to much.

I'm also lacking townreads; I feel Gamma, Creature and Paradox are Town, and that's all I'm comfortable with at the moment. I've also paranoid of a Math/Paradox scumteam, but I'll leave that theory until a later date.

What are you seeing between those two?

[Luca Blight]

I feel if Math is Town then Paradox is Town, but if Math is scum then my suspicion of Paradox goes up.

The reason being that it could have been a strategy pre-game for Paradox to heavily scumread Math throughout to justify Math's locktown read of him. I ganced through one of Math's scum pt's from a past game and the first thing he said to his partner was '

should we bus each other or locktown each other

', so I believe this would be within his scum range.

[Aneninen]

Not gonna lie, this lynch feels wrong
But I just don't see other viable lynches right now with 3 days on the deadline
I guess A50 could be scum but we're not d1 lynching him
I'm pretty low on townreads :/

Every single line is scummy here.

No other viable lynches? As if you hadn't pushed those wagons!
Almost50 could be scum but we're not lynching him? A preemptive post in case of Almost50 gets caught earlier than you.
Pretty low on townreads? And I was a PoE read and you even tried to search for partners for me!
Frankly,

why is anyone townreading him?

Actually, the more I read his posts the surer I am that he knows the alignment of all of us clearly.

it's not as if you're going to agree with my scumread of you.

Regardless of what I answer...

I was aware your vote was sitting on Mutant, but that seemed pretty inconsequential to the recent wagon that formed on him.

Inconsequential? Yeah. I actually had (and have) a case on him. Oh wait, I know! It's not the way how this game goes!

Why are "WE" not D1 lynching A50???? Because you say so? Because he's not expendable like me or Aneninen?? That's what's going on this game's D1 tbh. Just kill us already without trying to be sweet with us, if you want to play only with experienced players, don't let us in in the first place.

Now I'm 99% that he's town.

I did the SAME f-cking terrible thing in my very first Newbie. (I'm not proud of it but it happened.) I got a lot of scumread on me, "managed" to mislynch Thor on Day1 (who was town, obviously), on Day3 I found the remaining scum and at LyLo I explained the whole f-cking game... but noone believed me. Why? Because on Day1 I kept shouting (and later wallposting too) that the experienced players are scum and want to get rid of all the newbies.
Pinturicchio. Do not be the same aßhole that I was in that game!

Anen, it makes little sense to me how you went from "I don't care anymore, you won't listen to me anyway" too "I'll accuse Dino of treason when he has become the face of the town", even with me saying I wanted you to post a readlist. Not really gonna comment on the scumread you have on me. Or that it was me who was the prime advocate of a serious Mutant Lynch early today.

Why does it make little sense?
Your problem was that I wasn't doing anything. Now I'm doing something and it makes no sense. Need I repeat myself: regardless of what I post...

If you wanted a readlist, I missed it. As I said, I hadn't read the game thoroughly, partly because of in-game reasons, partly because of IRL reasons. That'swhy I said: point it out if there's something I need to reflect to.
Why did you worry about that scumread? You weren't even in the Top3? That sounded weird.

[Aneninen]

Jaydragonking, if you still want a readlist, I'll post that tomorrow. (Not capital T)

[Luca Blight]

it's not as if you're going to agree with my scumread of you.

Regardless of what I answer...

What?

Don't knowingly ignore points against you and then complain about being ignored.

I was aware your vote was sitting on Mutant, but that seemed pretty inconsequential to the recent wagon that formed on him.

Inconsequential? Yeah. I actually had (and have) a case on him. Oh wait, I know! It's not the way how this game goes!

...You asked me why the wagons formed and I answered you. The Mutant wagon was nothing to do with your case. You're being petulant.

[Aneninen]

I might have misunderstood you but if I answered your post about me which took place a couple of days ago, would it change anything?

Also, call me pelutant if you wish, but at least I had a CASE against Mutantdevle. (As for this, NSG and Gamma had cases against me. Don't you find it strange that neither Almost50 nor Mathdino referred to them? Nor those who were sheeping him?)

[Luca Blight]

I would say I'm more likely to get a read on you based on your real-time interactions now; my scumread on you based on my ISO'ing wasn't strong or set in stone by any stretch - I just considered you a decent lynch option.

Btw I mentioned your case in my ISO'ing; I don't believe it's strong as 'scumreading everything in someone's ISO' is something that is easily done as Town; often when you ISO someone you do it from the mindset that they are scum.

I don't particularly trust either Math or A50, but I'm willing to give them another day and see how things pan out.

[JaydragonKing]

I trust Almost the least out of Dino-Almost-Luca, if that helps. Again, going by Meta (oh so flawed as it is), he's always had a strong opinion as Town, yet this is the most amount of time he's just Sheeping people when I thought he would be up there with Dino and Luca in terms of content.

[Luca Blight]

I also find the notion that 'a case is needed to lynch someone' outdated; good players won't give you a chance to make a case on them as they naturally won't do many scummy things, and if you do make a case they'll be equipped to refute everything.

Scum actually like cases as it gives them something to logically deny/twist; the fact a wagon can build up on them based on stuff like PoE is something that they fear.

[Aneninen]

I would say I'm more likely to get a read on you based on your real-time interactions now; my scumread on you based on my ISO'ing wasn't strong or set in stone by any stretch - I just considered you a decent lynch option.

It's 1:35 am here and I've indeed had a lot to do IRL. Maybe at the weekend.
However, if I'm merely a "decent option", who would be a "good option" from your PoV?

I trust Almost the least out of Dino-Almost-Luca, if that helps. Again, going by Meta (oh so flawed as it is), he's always had a strong opinion as Town, yet this is the most amount of time he's just Sheeping people when I thought he would be up there with Dino and Luca in terms of content.

It does help.
Why do you trust Mathdino and Luca?
Do you think Almost is sheeping others more times than others?

I also find the notion that 'a case is needed to lynch someone' outdated; good players won't give you a chance to make a case on them as they naturally won't do many scummy things, and if you do make a case they'll be equipped to refute everything.

I seriously disagree with this.
(1) Even good players make mistakes
(2) Even the best player can not be prepared for every possible thing could be brought up in a case.
(3) Reactions matter too. (Especially in connection with (2), like the good old "scumreading the right one, but because of wrong reasons")
(4) Other things, like timing, phrasing, etc. matter too.
But I don't think we have time for this discussion right now.

Scum actually like cases as it gives them something to logically deny/twist; the fact a wagon can build up on them based on stuff like PoE is something that they fear.

So, do you think it's scummy if I'm getting annoyed by a PoE read?
If so, that's pigeon poop.
As a townie, what do I have to do after getting a PoE scumread? (Especially after a sheer PoE had been sheeped by others too!) Something like "oh my, it's okay, just let's lynch me, thanks, bye"? Don't you think it's possible that it's just as annoying for a townie?
Besides, read my posts back. I'm not upset because of the caselesss scumread. I'm upset because I've been feeling that most of my reads and thoughts are getting ignored just because they're coming from my slot. (Hence the tense; if it's about to change my attitude will change, too.) I'd care shyt about getting lynched if I knew that my posts mattered later. (If you don't believe this, just check my Team Mafia game, linked before.)

[Mathdino]

page bottom

update: searching for NSG tells is not going well