Team Mafia 2018: White Flag — Day Six

[Thestatusquo]

Lycan your case is kind of awful. You are saying its a proof of LQ scum, but you spend more time talking about CES than you do about LQ.

I don't see a single point that makes LQ more likely to be scum in there, just a whole bunch of CES Wifom and confirmation bias.

Like I don't even understand what the vote history point is supposed to mean.

[LicketyQuickety]

NONE of that makes me Scum Though.. Like you just said I did certain things.. How does that mean I am Scum?

Why am I a better vote than Dunn?

[Shadoweh]

Vote onto CES wasn't meant to be, LQ vs Shea is shit, and LQ has no business with his vote on Shea with how little sense he is making. Marquis and LQ aren't wolves because of how they talk to each other see 456-458, 1505 all being the easy examples. Sprinkle in vote data (marquis and gamma must die, ces too, just kidding! also, a wild shea) and I don't think they're on the same team. LQ's votes are very reactionary, and the Gamma one in particular is aimed because I said they couldn't be aligned based on interactions, and I imagine he was more worried about Llamarble's D1 post than any of us when he opened day with that can of worms. I read LQ as having a hitlist of people he can't get along with endgame, and this Shea argument just reads like he's muddying the waters.

says it more eloquently

Sleepy agrees with the muddying the waters parts, that's basically what we've been arguing about for a few days. Does LQ scum have a reason to kill the other dead townie rather then stop you from tunneling on them some more?

[Gamma Emerald]

Here's why scum kills someone other than Lycan: it puts town at a numbers disadvantage. Not saying this is anything against LQ being scum but the logic here should be clear as crystal.

[Thestatusquo]

Here's why scum kills someone other than Lycan: it puts town at a numbers disadvantage. Not saying this is anything against LQ being scum but the logic here should be clear as crystal.

What?

[Gamma Emerald]

Think about it: Lycan is already pretty much dead. By killing someone else yes that voice remains but when the next dayphase hits, that voice is gone and we're in evens. Why wouldn't scum let a conftown remain if it meant completely fucking up the main boon town got this game, which was an increase to the amount of mislynches before we lost?

[LicketyQuickety]

North was killed to minimise collateral damage to the Scum team. Not only was North's read on CES correct, but they also have way better solving ability than Lycan.

[Thestatusquo]

I'm just pretty unsure what you're saying, gamma.

Like, obviously the scum team wouldn't kill the player that is about to be modkilled. Is that the point you were making?

Because it seems like a pretty self evident one.

[Shadoweh]

Yeah obviously scum is not going to kill someone about to die. It still matters who the person who died was.

[Ranmaru]

Shea #3635:

1. I was wrong when it mattered. That is true. Yet how does that make me scum? Does that go alongside the rest of my play?

2. I do vote a lot, I like to use my vote as a tool. I do care who is lynched, I just change my mind, a lot. I have always tunneled in the past, and being a player with inaccurate reads, I note myself town reading scum. So, I try to pick up a whimsical style similar to Vi. That was indeed 24 hours apart. My reads have been influenced by A50's, and when I see Lycanfire respond to me, it just vibes town to me. Therefore I stop the push. Note that, I was not voting Lycan, but you.

3. Yes, everywhere except Dunn, true. I ignore players like Dunn, accepting that they'd be lynched on a day like today anyway, while prioritizing others that may have scum intent. I was never convinced by your argument he was scum simply for doing nothing.

4. I think you said it yourself, a team of Shea, Quick, and Gamma make sense to my Town point of view, if I think CES is town. There wasn't anything blaringly scummy about CES, only a smidge. I think your point here isn't valid since you yourself hadn't wanted CES before your pool. If I couldn't see the scumminess of CES from that case, I'm not sure why you did. In a skim of NSG's case, I thought 'this is mostly things I have already thought of myself' as some of her points did mention questions I asked to CES.

5. I'll tell you that a few times I purposely tried to swing people I was publicly scumreading onto wagons, like Quick at the time I was pushing CES. Other times, I simply reconsidered the player. I do understand the use of buddying as a tool, and I use it. Usually, I use it with town reads. In this game, this is a game where I only have one strong town read, and that is Gamma. The only other person I could and would have loved working with is Shea/Quick. Quick never really worked with me when I tried. You took a while.

6. I'm not generally cautious, no. I would like you to give an example of how you think I should have played. Generally, I will push for my scum reads to be lynched. You are right, I don't do the 'I don't think it's Dan anymore... I think it's Shea'. Although you quoted a post of me doing that with Lycanfire... Do you mean that I don't publish that in thread? As in, my thought process when I switched gears? I do agree that I do switch gears at the snap of a hat.

---

In general, this is just my playstyle as town. I care more about leading and finding scum, I've just had plenty of trouble actually finding them. It's more of my reads not being accurate, and I'm constantly flip flopping. Also, Quick is the #1 reason for my confusion as well. This is the first time I have flip flopped this much, most especially on Quick. I do like to buddy, I don't think buddying in and of it self is a scumtell. I do like to lead the town in doing what I want, though. This is true. I have already explained this though, this is me coping with the fact I'm not right, so I try to get it right. Then in the end, I get it wrong anyway. I've noticed that being obviously townie, is not the only skill one should have in mafia, and my reads definetly need polishing. I have scum reads that I want to lynch, that I always change my mind on due to my play style of being whimsical, so I can avoid tunneling and being wrong. Saying this in-game undermines my own credibility in game, but it's already shot due to missing the CES wagon.

Self-Meta:

Family Mafia
Crossover Mafia

[Ranmaru]

Also,

Happy Scum day Ranmaru!

Thanks dude.

[Ranmaru]

Ran you're kind of a riot to read. The way you present your argument ("I ask the town") sounds like a lawyer presenting their case.
The posts you're using as proof Davsto was seem to paint someone who was low on time which is a good reason not to reconsider what he's doing? Actually going back and looking, Davsto spends the entire rest of his posts that day after what you posted speaking with CES and solidifying why CES should be his vote. Why would CES be begging his scum partner in thread to look at other people, does this game not have daytalk? (Checking, scum role pm says daytalk). I can't imagine a universe I would hold it against someone for being told by scum they should be lynching me and the Davsto whispering, 'No'.

It seems like people think these two make sense as scum together but not really with other people? I hate lurking but even with posts like this Dunn triggers me a little less.

The reason I asked him to expand on his Gamma read, was because I highly disagreed with it. So, I wanted to talk to him about it. Yet he couldn't really do it. If I feel I may die at night, then I'd rather argue reads with people I town read at the time so that they can be more 'right'. Davsto wasn't really a 'presence' and seemed to be more like 'beetlejuice' when he has become present. 'Why would CES interact with Davsto if they are both scum?' To seem like they aren't in the first place? Also, you never actually talk about his reasoning for voting CES. What do you think of that?

This is basically rewriting history. :/

Unless Davsto is the worst scum in history I'm sure he could have come up with a reason to attack Gamma

. It seemed like he decided a 250 page iso wasn't worth it compared to what was happening in the now with CES. It's exactly what I would have done and your attempts to get him to iso Gamma are more like what you're saying CES was doing in trying to get him to iso Marqmeis as a distraction. Like I am reading these posts and other then saying a vague scumread at Gamma there's no push from him there. It's like you made a case on why he's a townie.

I disagree, Gamma is obviously town. I've also explained my reasoning for asking him to expand on Gamma. Shadoweh, all this response from you is coming from a mindset that I'm scum before you even consider my analysis, instead of coming from a mindset that I'm neutral and then consider my analysis. I'm saying you are coming from a confirmation bias on myself right now.

[Ranmaru]

Shadoweh, I want you to catch up on the game and give a full reads list, with reasoning.

[Shadoweh]

That is 100% not happening. I'm reading snippets since this game is being slow and boring but I'm not going to waste a week reading 100 pages.
I was hoping to link to wherever you said Gamma was scum but your narrative that he's obvtown is consistent going back at least 1500 posts. Huh.
I think you're seeing him from your own perspective but tbh I should stop responding to someone else's argument.

I will give you my current impressions though. Despite being a little self-defensive I do think Gamma is town, I think Davsto's insistence on staying on CES makes more sense as town then scum and his voting reason seemed completely reasonable to me (so basically the opposite of what you think ) . TSQ's posts just make the most sense to me (helps that we're thinking the same things.)

I guess LQ gets to be null since I find him inoffensive but my team thinks he's scum. That's someone I might actually do a full iso read on since you're making me doubt. Dan basically isn't here, no his fault but I dislike anytime someone tries to pair me with a likely lynch. If he's scum it won't matter and it could just be worrying for nothing.

Which leaves you and Dunnstral, unless I'm forgetting someone else in this game and it is 5am so it wouldn't be the first time. You're right that it'd be easier if you were scum and I didn't have to rethink anything. I think it makes more sense to vote Dunn right now and this could just be wasting time. I do think the double agent 'that tell was actually a FAKE' thing you do often is ridiculous though.

[Dunnstral]

Which leaves you and Dunnstral

Jog my memory, why isn't actiondan scum from your point of view?

[LicketyQuickety]

Which leaves you and Dunnstral

Jog my memory, why isn't actiondan scum from your point of view?

You only say this because you know you have no defense for your actions. It's called a strawman.

[Gamma Emerald]

Shadoweh I can find the posts where Ran said I was scum if you like

[LicketyQuickety]

God, what is the hold up? Dunn is so obviously Scum it's painful.

[Gamma Emerald]

btw I'm having my team focus this game down now so expect a lot more from me soon

[Shadoweh]

Shadoweh I can find the posts where Ran said I was scum if you like

Sure, that would be helpful. If it's further back then Day 2 I don't think it affects what I said about consistency.

[Lycanfire]

btw I want to discuss this now: should we no lynch for 5p if we mislynch today?

Yes, no lynching at 6 is a good idea. EV wise it is always better. The problem begins and ends with the scum choice. Nothing compels the scumteam to kill in this setup. Repetition will result in rocks falling and killing everyone up to Mathblade's discretion. If the other game were to magically be completed before then, it might be possible to reach a consensus of repetition depending on who drew scum in this game assuming a town win in the other ongoing.

It may even be possible to test who scum are by daring them into a draw, but I suspect trying with the state of Team Mafia at the moment would create blowback and intentional slowdown to prevent solving of other game in the time necessary to make that work. I would say it's more pro-town not to go with this route so as to not stifle discussion. If all other games were magically completed or about to be, it would be very viable as a strategy.

Personally I would not support a forced draw under other circumstances.

It's unlikely that scum actually allow the 5:2 lylo. Realistically there are 4 towns going into it.

[Lycanfire]

4:2 vs 3:2 math is hard

[Davsto]

hhh I've been really out of the mood for playing mafia but I'll try my best to make a post tonight

[ActionDan]

Powers back. I've had some thing to think about this game when it was off and will post those thoughts today

[Davsto]

well I just got kicked off the computer by my brother and my phone is rly bad for phoneposting so I guess I'm not gonna be posting unless I'm let back on later yay