Team Mafia 2018: White Flag — Day Six

[Thestatusquo]

Scum desperation, boys.

[Gamma Emerald]

Excuse me what the fuck? Check who you're quoting

[Thestatusquo]

Actually lets do this point by point:

1)

In general, Shea pushes Gamma without trying to understand his argument.

Show me where this happened please. Show me where I "pushed gamma without trying to understand his argument."

2)

His defense to not considering Gamma was that he was just holding that in to see reactions, but I don't think it's a valid defense.

I'm not even sure what this is referring to. Not considering gamma as scum? Not considering gammas reactions? When and where are you saying this happened?

3)

Shea tends to push people for ignoring him, yet he does the same to me when I ask about his Davsto read.

Show me where this happened. Where do I "push people for ignoring me." I don't think I've done it once. In fact, this is describing your play. Your whole reason for scum reading me earlier was that I "wasn't working with you enough." Please show the quotes where I am "pushing people because they ignore me."

He responds to his catch up as 'town' yet oddly takes a while to respond to me when I address him.

lol. its almost as if you're describing yourself not me.

4)

His vote on CES is actually suspect to me. I think people can see it, they are just blinded by the wagon I created to counter CES. It makes sense for Shea to vote his

null town

read after he sees a ton of pressure going in CES's way.

As already mentioned, he wasn't any longer a null town read. My reason for null-town reading ces was based on my meta of having played with him quite a bit back in the day. His response to the case did not fit into that meta. Additionally, we were 3 days from deadline, so my threshold for voting goes down. You are acting like I was just "lol vote ces" with no explanation but I fully explained multiple times how and why my read on his changed. You can't just pretend this didn't happen.

5)

Shea doesn't really do much with his 'town leader' status, he simply pushes for [Dunn, NSG, Marquis] one of which already flipped town.

The concept of "town leader" is bullshit. I vote for my reads. I try to get town to vote my reads. I have been right on one of my reads and wrong on two. It's hard to say what you've been right or wrong on because you've literally called the entire player base scum.

6)

He also has confidence in Dunn being scum yet he can't even case him.

Yes, gut reads exist. In fact, if I were scum trying to mislynch Dunn I can fucking promise you I would have been able to make a fake case and it would have been at least ok. I didn't because I concluded that my read was mostly gut and that wasn't a reasonable thing to ask people to follow me onto. You are taking all of these things and ignoring the town motivations behind them is scummy. Your analysis here is based on trying to make me look bad "LOL SHEA COULDN'T CASE A SCUM READ" while ignoring the fact that I would absolutely make a case as scum and wouldn't as town. Ignoring completely my motivation for WHY I didn't make a case.

7)

Also note that Shea yells at Davsto for not reading the thread, but never cares to mention this to Shadoweh. Shea is getting lazy.

You're right. I was caught up in other things and I didn't interact with shadoweh the same way I did with davsto. I'm not really sure why, maybe its because davsto kept saying he wasn't going to read the thread and then didn't for a while, and shadoweh never said she was going to do that? Or actually said the opposite. Obviously I would prefer she read the thread, but I can't make her if she says shes not going to. However, I wanted davstos input on the game. We're also in a much different part of the game. I honestly don't know.

Actually, if your contention is that me and davsto were scum together because of this and I was coaching him wouldn't I just yell at him about it in the PT?

Anyway, laziness is not alignment indicative. I put less effort into this game day 2 then 1, but thats because almost all of my posting takes place at work and I got really busy at work day 2.

Would you describe my play today as lazy, even if you do think laziness is a scum tell, which lol....

[Thestatusquo]

Excuse me what the fuck? Check who you're quoting

Yeah the quote is off. I'm responding to ranmarus post that you're quoting, not you.

[Thestatusquo]

*davsto kept saying he WAS going to read the thread is what that should say.

[Gamma Emerald]

Since I have been asked to explain my townreads myself here's where I'm at:
Shea: Doesn't feel like he's submitting his play under any care of being examined, basically he's not trying to please anyone with his play.
Ranmaru: honestly it comes down to why. I feel like he'd be smarter with his scumplay than to so evidently flip his reads at the drop of a hat.
Shadoweh: Besides being CES' pet ML he's also shown a serious desire to solve today.
Everyone else is pretty much a suspect.
Also I just thought of something to look at, one second

[Thestatusquo]

Like I really want to delve deeper on 6) here.

I have made several cases on scum reads this game. I have made one on ranmaru himself. I have made one on a player that flipped town. Why are you just ignoring this. What is your argument for what you think my motivation was for not casing him? It can't be because you think I don't make cases as scum, because I've done that. It can't be that you think I was trying to get him mislynched as scum, because if thats the case I definitely would have made the case. It can't be because you think we're scum together, because you think my scum partner would be davsto? It can't be because you think I was hoping he would get lynched and that I would be off the wagon because I have continued to vote and push him.

WHY exactly do you think this is scummy? Because I literally can't think of any scum motivation for a scum player not casing a scum read that is under heavy suspicion. The motivations are all town. They are that I didn't want to distract the town with pushing a lynch I couldn't bring people on board for and because I didn't think my gut reasons for scum reading him as opposed to marquis were particularly convincing.

These kinds of arguments look good on paper. You can shout over and over again that I did something that doesn't make perfect sense. I.e. I had a strong scum read on someone I tried to write a case on but couldn't. But its all surface level. You don't seem to care AT ALL about WHY a player might do that. You don't seem to care at all that there isn't really plausible scum motivation to do that. You don't care at all about the fact that you have to ignore multiple stated posts to make this argument. You don't care at all about the fact that my other actions don't fit even a little bit into your narrative.

All of your points are like this. They're attacks that are surface level "here is a thing shea did which I don't understand....SHEA IS SCUM."

That's just not a town mindset. Town wants to dig down and find the motivations behind why people are doing things. Town doesn't look at an action and say "this is weird must be scum." Scum does that because scum wants to push the town to mislynch people, and they don't need to be right, they only need to sound convincing and plausible. You seem way more concerned with sounding good than being right.

[Thestatusquo]

Since I have been asked to explain my townreads myself here's where I'm at:
Shea: Doesn't feel like he's submitting his play under any care of being examined, basically he's not trying to please anyone with his play.
Ranmaru: honestly it comes down to why. I feel like he'd be smarter with his scumplay than to so evidently flip his reads at the drop of a hat.
Shadoweh: Besides being CES' pet ML he's also shown a serious desire to solve today.
Everyone else is pretty much a suspect.
Also I just thought of something to look at, one second

Don't look at whether something people are doing is smart, look at who it benefits. The argument "why would x player do y its too obvious" is very often wrong, because it causes people to doubt themselves exactly like you're doing here. Plus, some people are just bad. Ranmaru has played poorly this game regardless of he's scum or town. It's not like his play is good for town to do either, and if we look at the motivation for why a player would play in the way that he has, i.e. read my case and my response to his response, we can see that the most likely motivations are all scum ones and not town ones. Same way he picks hyper specific things to ask people questions about that are ultimately irrelevant and frequently have been completely answered multiple times already. Why would town do that? I can't think of a motivation for it. Why would scum do it? There are tons of motivations there.

[LicketyQuickety]

Since I have been asked to explain my townreads myself here's where I'm at:
Shea: Doesn't feel like he's submitting his play under any care of being examined, basically he's not trying to please anyone with his play.
Ranmaru: honestly it comes down to why. I feel like he'd be smarter with his scumplay than to so evidently flip his reads at the drop of a hat.
Shadoweh: Besides being CES' pet ML he's also shown a serious desire to solve today.
Everyone else is pretty much a suspect.
Also I just thought of something to look at, one second

Don't look at whether something people are doing is smart, look at who it benefits. The argument "why would x player do y its too obvious" is very often wrong, because it causes people to doubt themselves exactly like you're doing here. Plus, some people are just bad. Ranmaru has played poorly this game regardless of he's scum or town. It's not like his play is good for town to do either, and if we look at the motivation for why a player would play in the way that he has, i.e. read my case and my response to his response, we can see that the most likely motivations are all scum ones and not town ones. Same way he picks hyper specific things to ask people questions about that are ultimately irrelevant and frequently have been completely answered multiple times already. Why would town do that? I can't think of a motivation for it. Why would scum do it? There are tons of motivations there.

Why do you say I am Town for Tunneling on you when I ask you things that have been answered, but Ranmaru is Scum for those same things?

[Gamma Emerald]

Since I have been asked to explain my townreads myself here's where I'm at:
Shea: Doesn't feel like he's submitting his play under any care of being examined, basically he's not trying to please anyone with his play.
Ranmaru: honestly it comes down to why. I feel like he'd be smarter with his scumplay than to so evidently flip his reads at the drop of a hat.
Shadoweh: Besides being CES' pet ML he's also shown a serious desire to solve today.
Everyone else is pretty much a suspect.
Also I just thought of something to look at, one second

Don't look at whether something people are doing is smart, look at who it benefits. The argument "why would x player do y its too obvious" is very often wrong, because it causes people to doubt themselves exactly like you're doing here. Plus, some people are just bad. Ranmaru has played poorly this game regardless of he's scum or town. It's not like his play is good for town to do either, and if we look at the motivation for why a player would play in the way that he has, i.e. read my case and my response to his response, we can see that the most likely motivations are all scum ones and not town ones. Same way he picks hyper specific things to ask people questions about that are ultimately irrelevant and frequently have been completely answered multiple times already. Why would town do that? I can't think of a motivation for it. Why would scum do it? There are tons of motivations there.

Why do you say I am Town for Tunneling on you when I ask you things that have been answered, but Ranmaru is Scum for those same things?

That's not what he's say at alllllll?

[Thestatusquo]

Since I have been asked to explain my townreads myself here's where I'm at:
Shea: Doesn't feel like he's submitting his play under any care of being examined, basically he's not trying to please anyone with his play.
Ranmaru: honestly it comes down to why. I feel like he'd be smarter with his scumplay than to so evidently flip his reads at the drop of a hat.
Shadoweh: Besides being CES' pet ML he's also shown a serious desire to solve today.
Everyone else is pretty much a suspect.
Also I just thought of something to look at, one second

Don't look at whether something people are doing is smart, look at who it benefits. The argument "why would x player do y its too obvious" is very often wrong, because it causes people to doubt themselves exactly like you're doing here. Plus, some people are just bad. Ranmaru has played poorly this game regardless of he's scum or town. It's not like his play is good for town to do either, and if we look at the motivation for why a player would play in the way that he has, i.e. read my case and my response to his response, we can see that the most likely motivations are all scum ones and not town ones. Same way he picks hyper specific things to ask people questions about that are ultimately irrelevant and frequently have been completely answered multiple times already. Why would town do that? I can't think of a motivation for it. Why would scum do it? There are tons of motivations there.

Why do you say I am Town for Tunneling on you when I ask you things that have been answered, but Ranmaru is Scum for those same things?

For one thing, I DID scum read you for that. I spent a large part of this game scum reading you for that. It was a huge part of why I thought you were scum.

I eventually had to move off of you because my scum read based on those things was eventually outweighed in my mind by other things, which I've discussed at length, most recently in my answer to gamma about my town reads.

For another, that's not actually what I'm accusing Ranmaru of. I'm accusing him of asking questions for the purpose of fake scum hunting and I'm accusing him of using those questions to set up attacks that are surface level at best.

For another, I don't think "tunneling" is a reasonable thing to call ranmaru's play. It's been the opposite of tunneling. I also think that the way in which the questions was asked and the way in which it was used shows different motivation. Your questions seemed like genuine lack of understanding at the beginning. At the end, I feel like they ended up being confirmation bias and tunneling, because you really believed I was scum. The purpose of your questions, though, as far as I could tell, felt like you were trying to catch me in contradictions. The fact that I didn't see them as contradictions made you scum read me, because you really truly felt they were.

Contrast that with ranmarus play, where the questions seem designed to make it look like hes scum hunting when he's not. They seem designed to generate content which doesn't actually have any positive effects on game solving. They seem designed to, as gamma pointed out, send people out on wild goose chases which distract the town.

I've also noticed that a lot of ranmarus questions are attempts to set up some attack he wants to make. They are premeditated. His last question asked me for a bizarre piece of trivia about one small post I made about davsto days ago, which had been explained at least 3 times, and then immediately he jumped on me and started positing me and davsto were scum together. It's like hes trying to use his questions to get people to look bad, not to determine their alignment.

[Thestatusquo]

(my argument also wasn't that you were town for tunneling. I think tunneling is NAI. My argument is that the way you went after me and gamma and the arguments you used are just not going to come from scum. Scum just isn't going to make that push on one of the stronger players in the game using arguments that bad. They're going to go after an easier lynch target and they're going to do it with better arguments.)

[Ranmaru]

LQ is it weird that I responded to a thought you had and then you stated you were caught up and that you were open for questions but completely ignored that like the LAST POST had been a thought directed at you?

Or is it just me that I think that's weird.

Asking for four friends.

what were your motivations for that conversation with me? it felt like you were trying to see if you could poke around and find traction to start getting a wagon on me, but no one jumped on it so you abandoned it and moved on. you've thrown a lot of shade my way but have avoided attacking me directly. I think that's kind of what lycan was getting at, and I think its pretty clearly true.

so I'll ask you this: are you scum reading me, and if so: why arent you voting me?

I consider what people say about their play, but I don't let people tell me why they're doing the things they do because people lie. You know damn well I know you're quick and I believe I've told you that I've read your wiki, but I also recall you have something of a poor memory, so I forgive you for not remembering that.

The problem with your actions is that the things you're doing also have significant scum motivations. Regardless of if you think you're doing them for other reasons, I'm not in your head, and I can't just trust you.

And I also am starting to be pretty sure you're scum because you're poking and drawing almost no reasonable conclusions. You start long discussions with me about nonsense about how reck is using different tools to find reads, and then disengage as soon as I try to explain. That's the biggest problem here. You're poking, but you don't seem to care about the responses to your pokes. At least not from the people you're poking. You seem to be singularly interested in the responses of other players, which makes me think you're more interested in finding where you can find an easy lynch, and not concerned about finding the correct lynch. This squares quite nicely with your vote on marquis also, which you have not fully explained after naked voting. It's nice to be on the highest vote getter who happens to not be posting much.

Actually, literally all the votes on marquis right now are atrocious.

Here is the quote for you pushing those ignoring you shea. I ask questions to clarify an earlier thought, while already having the case made. I do it when I have less time, and can get who I am suspecting to talk more. Can't respond in depth right now, sorry.

[Thestatusquo]

None of those are pushing him for ignoring me.

The first one is pointing out that its weird that he was doing a catchup and then somehow missed a post directed at him. The point wasn't YOU DIDN'T RESPOND TO ME. It was "Why did you miss this if you were actually giving the game attention."

The second and third one isn't even about ignoring at all. Nowhere in any of those quotes do I even mention being ignored, nor was I talking about it in the slightest.

It's about his process and how he was approaching the game. My attack was that he didn't have reasonable conclusions and that he was poking not to discern alignment but rather to determine who the town would go after.

What. Just. What?

[LicketyQuickety]

The resistance to lynching Dunn is unreal. That is a weak reason to SR Dunn all in itself.

[Thestatusquo]

I'm not resistant to lynching dunn at all.

I just want to see if I can get my #1 read instead of my #2.

If we get closer to deadline and no one is feeling ran I'll switch over, don't worry.

[Gamma Emerald]

The resistance to lynching Dunn is unreal. That is a weak reason to SR Dunn all in itself.

Maybe
if you explained why everyone else is town
you might convince me

[LicketyQuickety]

The resistance to lynching Dunn is unreal. That is a weak reason to SR Dunn all in itself.

Maybe
if you explained why everyone else is town
you might convince me

Irrelevant. Correct play here is to lynch Dunn.

[Thestatusquo]

The resistance to lynching Dunn is unreal. That is a weak reason to SR Dunn all in itself.

Maybe
if you explained why everyone else is town
you might convince me

I already made what I think was a pretty compelling post about why everyone but ran/dunn is town to me.

[Gamma Emerald]

The resistance to lynching Dunn is unreal. That is a weak reason to SR Dunn all in itself.

Maybe
if you explained why everyone else is town
you might convince me

Irrelevant. Correct play here is to lynch Dunn.

You see
the more you post that
the more I want to votepark on you for mindlessly pushing a lynch

[Thestatusquo]

Don't do that, he's town.

God dammit.

[Thestatusquo]

LQ, I'd like your town reads too, if you don't mind.

If not for today, for tomorrow in case of night kill.

[Shadoweh]

Don't do that, he's town.

God dammit.

Fake news!

His read is that Dunn needs to die as evidenced by the fact that Dunn is playing very badly for town or something.

[LicketyQuickety]

Don't do that, he's town.

God dammit.

Fake news!

His read is that Dunn needs to die as evidenced by the fact that Dunn is playing very badly for town or something.

More like there is Scum motive based on Dunn's votes, but sure! practically the same thing! /s

[Thestatusquo]

Perhaps you'd like to explain why using something a little more concrete than "he said I'm more pro town than you!"

Perhaps iso him and tell me what makes him scum. Or, you know, ISO him and check out my posts about him which explain why I think hes town. Just ISO him at the very least.