Micro 789 - Alternating 9p - Mafia wins

[BuJaber]

Not chris.. I meant Major

So 1 scum in {ico, NM and maybe major}

[BuJaber]

Let's try the 2nd group VOTE: NM

[Kmd4390]

Vote Count

Not_Mafia - 3 - Raskolnikov, christopher, BuJaber
Iconeum - 2 - Lovebird, major minor
Raskolnikov - 1 - ZZZX
Christopher - 1 - Greenliquid
BuJaber - 1 - Iconeum

Not Voting - Not_Mafia

With 9 alive, it takes 5 to lynch

Deadline is April 2 at 1pm EST

[BuJaber]

NM @L-2

[ZZZX]

VLA for 48 hours

Noted.

[GreenLiquid]

It seems inconsistent to me in what you attribute to playstyle and what you attribute to alignment.

Before I started playing again late last year, I read through a few recent games to get an idea of how people are playing the game these days. In the games I read, a trend stood out to me: there were a lot of day 1/day 2 mislynches on the basis of some player adopting a playstyle that was generally annoying to other players. For example, being aggressive, multi-posting all over the place, tunneling, etc. Since these ended up being mislynches most of the time, I'm wary of scumreading a player just because of aspects of their playstyle. The relevant question to ask would be: if you think the way a player is posting/acting is something they would plausibly do as scum, why is it

not

something they would plausibly do as town? If you don't have a good answer to that question, you should reconsider your read.

I consider insincerity in posts to have much more direct bearing on alignment because scum cannot be sincere by nature (they're not in the game to hunt scum). That's why, for instance, I question your really early townread, because I feel it's more natural for a townie to start a game feeling suspicious and looking for scummy behavior from other players (at least from my own experience) than to start off by townreading people. That, and there's a scum motive in throwing out an early townread that seems stronger than the likelihood that a townie would do the same. But you gave a reasonable explanation for it and that mostly mollified my initial scumread.

What do you think of ico and chris?

Ico is null/leantown to me. I don't agree with your push on him -- his early posts don't seem empty to me, or at least not empty relative to what we've been dealing with this game. The only thing odd in my eyes is his 95 but I could be misunderstanding it.
Christopher didn't make much of an impression on me. Looking at his ISO I'd like more engagement with players and less commentary / stating reads but his posting doesn't read insincere or detached from me.

Your vote is still on chris?

Fair point. That was an RVS vote and we're out of RVS.

Unvote: Christopher

Still no real leads, so I haven't felt much of a reason to vote. I'm going to re-read and see if there's anything I've missed.

[GreenLiquid]

Good point.

As of now:
1 scum in {GL, Rask, Love}
1 scum in {NM, Icon} maybe chris.

I know it's a big pool but one of them flips scum it makes it less likely that there's another scum in the same group imo.

OK, this is really starting to bug me. I thought this might have been a playstyle quirk but now it feels like something else.

You're saying that there's likely 1 scum in {me, Raskie, Lovebird}.

In 62 you said that you townlean Lovebird, so presumably if you believe there's 1 scum in {me, Raskie, Lovebird}, that really just comes down to 1 scum in {me, Raskie}.

Then, in 65 you say that you neither scumread or townread Raskie, so he's presumably null to you. Then in 96 you say that upon a re-read, Raskie's opening no longer pings you. If you were null on Raskie with something actively pinging you, I would think you now lean town on him (if that's not the case, why?). So 1 scum in {me, Raskie} really just comes down to 1 scum in {me}. You haven't specifically stated any reason that you think I'm scummy yet, so either 1) you're scumreading me but going above and beyond to avoid taking any direct stances, or 2) this entire exercise is pointless at best and actively obfuscatory at worst.

What is your current read on me? If it's a scumread, why? If it's not a scumread, why are you sticking to this "1 scum in {me, Raskie, Lovebird}" thing when you don't scumread anyone in that group? It seems like this approach is not evolving in a natural way with your reads.
Also, you implied that this POE technique is something you've used before as town. Would you mind linking to a completed town game where you did this?

Finally, why are you pooling {Not_Mafia, Iconeum, Major Minor} together? The reason you originally stated to pool me, Raskie, and Lovebird together was our early-game activity. I don't see anything that {Not_Mafia, Iconeum, Major Minor} have in common.

VOTE: BuJaber

[Raskolnikov]

Not chris.. I meant Major

So 1 scum in {ico, NM and maybe major}

Do you like townread chris or he just doesn't go either pool?

[Raskolnikov]

After iconman majorminor and bujaber answers I guess we can start looking to end the day... am serious about willing to lynch n_m (even if it's at least partially policy) if nothing is more appealing by then.

[Christopher]

@Raskolnikov: Is your vote switch to Not_Mafia on the basis of anything other than lack of content?

gucci, my dude.

VOTE: Not_Mafia

Same question @Christopher.

Both. The lack of content is one side of the coin, and the substantive (lack of) help provided by Not_Mafia causes me to scumread.

[BuJaber]

Not chris.. I meant Major

So 1 scum in {ico, NM and maybe major}

Do you like townread chris or he just doesn't go either pool?

He doesn't go in either pool. He's town by PoE unless I'm wrong on both pools.

@GL - your pool has nothing to do with scumreads. None of you are specifically pinging me but I'm confident that three way convo you guys had was unnatural for TvTvT. One of you was playing along to keep the other 2 distracted and to inflate the thread. I made that pretty clear.
I do a lot of this if x then y sort of stuff and making hypothesies regarding 2 or three players at the same time. I wouldn't know a specific example to quote or link off the top of my head but if you really think that would be helpful I'll go search through my posts. It seems like a waste of time though because even if I showed you the examples how would that help you townread me? You're better off asking someone I've played with before. (NM, Lovebird, christopher, Icon) not all them might agree they've each played different games than me but they're a more believable source than I would be talking about myself. I think chris hasn't seen my town game at all we were scum together once and that's it as far as I recall.

[GreenLiquid]

He doesn't go in either pool. He's town by PoE unless I'm wrong on both pools.

@GL - your pool has nothing to do with scumreads. None of you are specifically pinging me but I'm confident that three way convo you guys had was unnatural for TvTvT. One of you was playing along to keep the other 2 distracted and to inflate the thread. I made that pretty clear.
I do a lot of this if x then y sort of stuff and making hypothesies regarding 2 or three players at the same time. I wouldn't know a specific example to quote or link off the top of my head but if you really think that would be helpful I'll go search through my posts. It seems like a waste of time though because even if I showed you the examples how would that help you townread me? You're better off asking someone I've played with before. (NM, Lovebird, christopher, Icon) not all them might agree they've each played different games than me but they're a more believable source than I would be talking about myself. I think chris hasn't seen my town game at all we were scum together once and that's it as far as I recall.

If you showed me an example from a town game, that would make it easier for me to chalk this up as a playstyle quirk instead of a scum tactic.

You didn't answer my question about the {Not_Mafia, Iconeum, Major Minor} pool. What do they have in common?
ZZZX also isn't in either of your pools. What do you think of him?

[Iconeum]

Hi. Who’re the goons?

VOTE: Christopher for not having an avatar. You're the goons!

Obvious townslip by Christopher, GL fell for it.
GGEZ

VOTE: GreenLiquid

Can you elaborate on this? I don't know why knowing the setup is a town slip.

Rask seems town for the way he's engaging with the game. The poking & prodding to dig out even the tiniest morsel of content from someone screams town this early. The way he also threw his vote around onto Not_Mafia just felt really town in my gut? I hate gut reads, it's hard to explain, but it was the lack of pretense that pinged me as town. There's no show to put on, nobody to impress with his vote switch, it's just what it is.

Iconeum's push on BuJaber seems weak and phony. It basically comes down to "you didn't stop and rewrite your post to avoid possibly being read as scum for the contradiction" -- which, IMO, is a reason to point to Bu being TOWN, not mafia. Town doesn't have to go through that extra layer of thought because they aren't trying to hide who they are -- Mafia do. Would love to hear a response to this. The rest of Iconeum's stuff feels null at worst.

I dislike Lovebird's empty push on Iconeum, though. No reasons or anything? Feels opportunistic.

ZZZX's push on Rask is out of left field. He's voting Rask for pointing out the number of lurkers... while completely ignoring all the rest of Rask's content? And there's a LOT there to be ignoring.

VOTE: Iconeum

i'm not sure what you mean here. You are quoting my opening post, where I made a joke about 'knowing the goons'?
Also, Buj put a scumread of a slot in the same post he's townreading it. That's enough for me.

If lovebird is pushing me opportunistically, what does that tell you?

[Iconeum]

Let me clarify the read on Buj here:

42 he puts lovebird in a lynchpool, but immediately brings forth a point why lovebird is likely town.
60 he defends how his reads was a natural progression, which i don't mind but...
62 here he repeats his townread on lovebird
96 still putting lovebird in his lynchpool

meanwhile he is voting for NM, which is weaksauce. He does this shit all the time and it's NAI. It's the perfect place for scum to place votes.

He's not pushing his scumreads. Why is Buj not trying to sort Rask out? I read that slot as town, and he is not putting any effort in engaging to sort it out. He could easily be asking where the town!rask reads are coming from. Only scum would be desinterested in this.

NM is really the easy way to follow for BuJ.

[BuJaber]

He doesn't go in either pool. He's town by PoE unless I'm wrong on both pools.

@GL - your pool has nothing to do with scumreads. None of you are specifically pinging me but I'm confident that three way convo you guys had was unnatural for TvTvT. One of you was playing along to keep the other 2 distracted and to inflate the thread. I made that pretty clear.
I do a lot of this if x then y sort of stuff and making hypothesies regarding 2 or three players at the same time. I wouldn't know a specific example to quote or link off the top of my head but if you really think that would be helpful I'll go search through my posts. It seems like a waste of time though because even if I showed you the examples how would that help you townread me? You're better off asking someone I've played with before. (NM, Lovebird, christopher, Icon) not all them might agree they've each played different games than me but they're a more believable source than I would be talking about myself. I think chris hasn't seen my town game at all we were scum together once and that's it as far as I recall.

If you showed me an example from a town game, that would make it easier for me to chalk this up as a playstyle quirk instead of a scum tactic.

You didn't answer my question about the {Not_Mafia, Iconeum, Major Minor} pool. What do they have in common?
ZZZX also isn't in either of your pools. What do you think of him?

ZZZX is a nullread.

The thing they have in common is I am scumreading them all. But I am more sure that there is scum in the first group than I am of my scumreads on them so there is no way the 2nd group can all be scum. That is why I can only be right about one of them.

[BuJaber]

There is no scum motivation for me to do the things you are scumreading me for Icon.

This is how I think. Every game is a little different but all I've done is describe in full detail my process in this game so far and you're punishing me for it.

You want me to sort rask how? It's not my style to manufacture conversation to get a read. If things come up naturally I will. If something in particular he posts I want to respond to or argue against I will.

At best your problem is simply with my playstyle. And at worst you're scum.

[Raskolnikov]

zzz massprod boys

[Raskolnikov]

@Iconman

I agree that putting Lovebird in a scumpool, but in the same post mentioning that is has no reason to act like that if scum, is just weird.
Still like how he tries to steer conversation away, because that was leading us nowhere.

Out of curiosity, you didn't notice this when you made 43 right?

[Raskolnikov]

bujaber is moonlogicing but low scum motivation in it atm imo, i'd lynch n_m or zzzx over him

[Lovebird]

Sorry. One second.

[Lovebird]

I consider insincerity in posts to have much more direct bearing on alignment because scum cannot be sincere by nature (they're not in the game to hunt scum). That's why, for instance, I question your really early townread, because I feel it's more natural for a townie to start a game feeling suspicious and looking for scummy behavior from other players (at least from my own experience) than to start off by townreading people. That, and there's a scum motive in throwing out an early townread that seems stronger than the likelihood that a townie would do the same. But you gave a reasonable explanation for it and that mostly mollified my initial scumread.

But, couldn't making early townreads be someone's style too? Besides, not like it was a choice, I just noticed something towny I thought, so said it.

[Lovebird]

Ico is null/leantown to me. I don't agree with your push on him -- his early posts don't seem empty to me, or at least not empty relative to what we've been dealing with this game. The only thing odd in my eyes is his 95 but I could be misunderstanding it.

What makes him leantown here? You only mentioned reasons for him not to be scum. And, I still think they're empty, though I guess that's lots of people. His stood out, though. Didn't think they were saying much.

[Lovebird]

Lazy reads in 59, townreading people for effort. Questions he doesn't seem to care about or follow up on later.

[Lovebird]

Totally empty slots really annoying.

[BuJaber]

One day I'm going to make a wiki section for my page where I link everytime someone made fun of my logic and I was right 100%.

People seem to forget that if they read something as townie and someone else reads the same thing as scummy somehow their opinion is more correct and it's bullshit. People don't always play the same way every game.

I think I'm fucking right and if you want to lynch me for that do so but I'm gonna rub it in your face when we lose and you decided to let your ego rule the game.

I'm sick of people on MS belittling my thought process.