Open 717: C9++ [GAME OVER:TOWN WINS]

[Judge Joseph Dredd]

why do we have such long pre-game?

-- A couple of reasons; I'm still waiting on two players to confirm and one player is having alt activation problems. Once those are fixed we can carry on with d1.

[Judge Joseph Dredd]

HOLD YOUR HORSES!

Let's first make a strategic move. I think the best move for town now is for the masons to claim if there are any.

Note that

only the masons should claim

and not any other roles.

[Judge Joseph Dredd]

Can you pretend I'm an idiot and explain the logic here?

Cutting the road on scum to fake masons later on + gaming the setup for the exact formation of the scum.

[Judge Joseph Dredd]

Why do you think that the value of doing this so obviously outweighs the cost of outing two Town PRs on D1?

Masons have no powers. Just like IC. It is good to have 3 confirmed town on D1 already + narrows down pool for cop/rolebrock/vig

if we have 3 town + 10 unknown and we mislynch and have 2 town flips from the night one from mafia and one from vig or sk then we have 3 town and 7 unknown on d2 and if there's a cop then we have 4 town and 6 unknown with 3 or 4 of them guaranteed to be scum so we lynch in those

[Judge Joseph Dredd]

That moment when you open the activity overview to do some ISOs and you see that the mod has the 2nd highest post count.

OK, why is there a wagon on Gamma? I think he's town

The two people voting me are both scummy, but not because they're voting me. It's because neither has done anything else other than voting me.

I have good feelings about Laser Guy, UnaBombaH & Kop.

@Una: you didn't start the wagon on Gamma. Hoopla did, then you then Sesq

VOTE: Myloninja13

Again, not because he's voting me but because he did nothing else and also because 3 of the 4 I TR aside from the IC are voting there

[Judge Joseph Dredd]

Why do you think he is town?

gut and activity

[Judge Joseph Dredd]

If I wasn't already voting you, I would because of this post.

I couldn't care less tbh

[Judge Joseph Dredd]

I don't care about being voted in general, but I also don't put much weight on your read on me

[Judge Joseph Dredd]

I have a feeling that there's something weird going on between the "votecircle" of Judge J.D. - UglyDuck - OK Nyeo - Myloninja13.
Ok Nyeo has been acting strangely, and seems to avoid direct confrontation. Hiding behind a "funny answer" such as "spy-stuff" or whatnot can't be neglected for long. Very non-committal and evasive posting. Their vote is on UglyDuck.

UglyDuck voted Judge Dredd very early, based on Dredd suggesting that masons should claim. Duck ASKS A LOT OF QUESTIONS, BUT OFFERS VERY LITTLE IN TERMS OF OPEN READS/ANALYSIS. Feels like a scum posing activity in scumhunting.. Their vote is still on Judge Dredd.

Judge Dredd opened with the idea for a Masonry-claim. Got an immediate town-feel from it, but obviously the action in itself should be considered NAI (easy for scum to take the initiative and hide behind it) Posting hasn't been very informative after that, but not straight-up scummy either. Their vote is on Myloninja13, and not with much of a reason yet, I think.

Myloninja13...hasn't been able to say much ANYTHING yet. Their vote is currently still on Judge Dredd, apparently based on his suggestion for the Mason-claim.

Short version: you have 4 suspects grouped into 2 opposite sides. I'm voting one and Neyo's voting the other (me/Meyo are one side) while the other side (Ugly/Mylo) are both on me.

I hence suggest we lynching in these 4 should be more informative.

[Judge Joseph Dredd]

I'm of 2 minds
I think lynching the VT claim is the safe choice as we don't want to out the PRs
But since my call for the Masons to claim was met by general objection I can see this one too to be viewed as advocating a mislynch on purpose

fwiw I buy the claim from Kop and I think if lynched he will flip a villager just like he said, but I don't know if lynching him is good or bad so I'm staying put

[Judge Joseph Dredd]

I'm of 2 minds
I think lynching the VT claim is the safe choice as we don't want to out the PRs
But since my call for the Masons to claim was met by general objection I can see this one too to be viewed as advocating a mislynch on purpose

fwiw I buy the claim from Kop and I think if lynched he will flip a villager just like he said, but I don't know if lynching him is good or bad so I'm staying put

What do you mean by the last line here? If you think he's going to flip Town, what value do you think there is in lynching him?

It's explained in the top paragraph. I don't know if it's safer to lynch a claimed VT or to wagon someone else who might turn to be a PR and we force them to out

[Judge Joseph Dredd]

But who should the doctor protect tonight?

How do we know there is a doctor again?

[Judge Joseph Dredd]

Interesting. Everybody left pin to chat with himself. At least that makes him very likely town to me.

This means the wagon was started by town and is put to L-1 by town, so I'm going to save you all the trouble and take the blame for this mislynch (IF it's a mislynch).

VOTE: Sesq

I believe this should end the day.

[Judge Joseph Dredd]

Any one else?

[Judge Joseph Dredd]

By the way if you don't want someone to be lynched don't put them at l-1. It's that simple. We're not going to put everyone to l-1 and get a claim the move on until all PRs are outed. I said to lynch the first vt claim but nobody listened. Then you put Sesq to l-1 an wanted a claim. She would have claimed vt. So? Would you have lynched her? That would be hypocritical because you didn't lynch Kop for the same claim. Would you have let her go and wagoned someone else? How many wagons did you guys need to help scum find the PRs? If anyone really did understand why I called for the masons to claim they should have understood why I didn't like wagoning people to l-1 and getting them to claim then moving on.

And yes, of course there was scum on both Kop and Sesq's wagon, That's what scum do. They push wagons to get claims and shoot the PRs.

[Judge Joseph Dredd]

yes. Kop is a town read

[Judge Joseph Dredd]

Anyone with a brain would know scum will always claim vt on D1, btw. It doesn't matter that I town read Kop. It's a given that scum not yet being able to analyze the setup to any degree of certainty will have to go for the safest claim on D1.

After you guys refused to lynch Kop, any sane PR should have also claimed vt if run to l-1. So we would have ended up with a bunch of vt claims or we would have ended up with a not-so-sharp PR claiming and getting night killed.

Today we have wagons to analyze though. It is 100% that there was scum on the Sesq wagon, It's also 95% that there was scum on Kop regardless of his alignment, and it's 100% there is scum on my wagon as we speak. The problem is 3 out of the 4 voting me were on Sesq, and also 3 were on the Kop wagon. 2 were on both wagons and are currently on mine. These are Fredrick A Campbell and Hoopla.

I say we lynch the former as he lead the wagon on Kop and is leading the wagon on me. That's the most likely mafioso playing spearhead for his team (also most likely to flip the goon for this very reason)

VOTE: Fredrick A Campbell

[Judge Joseph Dredd]

I should have added "or Godfather". Playing spearhead requires you either are expendable or you're not afraid of getting investigated.

[Judge Joseph Dredd]

Being the IC doesn't make them a better player. The Korina head is well known to self-hammer at l-1 regardless of alignment and have done it more than once as town, which makes it even worse play fro them indeed to put someone else at l-1 if they didn't want them lynched.

[Judge Joseph Dredd]

let me ask you all a hypothetical question. If you were a cop in this game who would you have checked tonight? I of course don't want you to answer in thread but only to yourself in your mind, If the answer is JJD for that hammer then are limiting yourself to me being a Godfather, an investigation immune SK, or a townie. Said another way the chances of me being scum have dropped down by 50% for that hammer and it has nothing to do with being too scummy to be scum bs but more to do with the fact that I simply cannot be a goon or RB knowing there might be a cop in the game and draw attention to myself like that.

Now comes the tricky part. Would a lone scum play this way? I myself would say not a chance but you're not me so you're entitled to have your own view. Those who agree I can't be the SK though are now at 25% chance of me being scum compared to the initial chance at the start of the game.

Stay with me please as this is going to get interesting. A Godfather is supposed to be immune to investigations. That's the whole advantage of them being a Godfather. So they go on and stick their neck this far that if they don't get lynched they'd be vigged or killed by the SK?

If you have any real logic you would deduce there is literally no chance of me being scum here, and precisely for that hammer. On any other setup it might be something for scum to get away with, but not in this setup.

You may think there is no vig in the game and probably no SK either because we only had one NK. But did I know that yesterday when I placed the hammer?

Food for thought

[Judge Joseph Dredd]

where is your logic coming from of "putting someone at L-1, they claim VT and we lynch them"? That literally exactly happened earlier in this game and we did not lynch that person.

Exactly. So who would we lynch then? You don't think scum were going to claim scum, do you?

[Judge Joseph Dredd]

The point is every single player is going to either claim vt or a PR and if we're not lynching vt claims we'll keep on running people up and our all the PRs.

[Judge Joseph Dredd]

By lynching the vt claim you are forcing the scum to fake claim a OR rather than just go for the safest refuge in a vt claim. If scum claim PRs they're either countered on the spot or left for later flips to expose them.

[Judge Joseph Dredd]

fake claim a PR*

[Judge Joseph Dredd]

And how confident can I be with only 2 games under my belt? This is my 3rd game on the site.

But you are also forgetting the mechanical part. Confidence is good but it won't help me if a Cop returned a guilty on me, would it?

[Judge Joseph Dredd]

Vig and SK shots could have been blocked, you know...

Good point. So we still don't know they do not exist for sure, and much less so yesterday. Thank you.

[Judge Joseph Dredd]

By lynching the vt claim you are forcing the scum to fake claim a OR rather than just go for the safest refuge in a vt claim. If scum claim PRs they're either countered on the spot or left for later flips to expose them.

This is also not true in this setup. PRs can't counter on the spot, and later flips could be too late.

Really! OK then, I'm a Cop and I have a guilty on Fredrick A Campbell.

[Judge Joseph Dredd]

@Hoopla: I fully concur with your 461, but I also seem to recall you describing my hammer on Sesq as hot garbage. Care to make up your mind? Am I good scum who would "extract a little bit of value from a bad situation". or am I bad enough to place a "hot garbage" hammer? Or did I just happen to improve in 2 pages??

[Judge Joseph Dredd]

Ok, new strategy: assuming there's no doctors because the IC died, claiming cop is getting nightkilled no matter what. We lynch JJD; if he's telling the truth, we will lose a VT or PR on the nightkill and we lynch Fredrick tomorrow. If he's lying, good for us, right? Or you guys are unvoting JJD because there's a better way to do this?

We can do this, but I would bet on Town losing this game because you guys are hilarious at WIFOMing a guilty.

And you know what would be even better? Scum having a RB so they block me, kill someone else and then I get lynched tomorrow and Fred is still alive in LyLo. Well, the good thing is he will be lynched by then and then good luck for Town getting 2 more back-to-back lynches correctly, and that's even assuming there is no SK. Really impressive play.

[Judge Joseph Dredd]

You know what would be even more funny? You finally lynch Fred and he flip RB.

[Judge Joseph Dredd]

See you all tomorrow

P-edit: What doubts?

[Judge Joseph Dredd]

OK, I'll respond tomorrow. I really need to go to sleep now. Night

[Judge Joseph Dredd]

@JJD

If you were a cop with a guilty result, then why you didn't claim immediately? It was obvious that we were going to vote you for that hammer.

Real cop please don't out


And also, we can do hypoclaims

For someone who pretends to know how to play Cop this seems to be a really odd questions. A Cop with a guilty never outs at the start if the day unless it was the last Scum they caught. They push the guilty player w/o outing the guilty to see how everyone reacts and try to catch the other scum through VCA.

[Judge Joseph Dredd]

@JJD: Why did you pick Campbell as your target? Also, any chance you crumbed your role or target?

I didn't crumb unless you count my strategy for Masons to out (gives more info about the setup) and my proposition to lynch the vt claim (not outing more PRs).

As for the target I was suspicious of him but I couldn't find much to push based on content. It was him or Mylo

[Judge Joseph Dredd]

First thing when he gets back, JJD needs to specify if he's 1-shot or full Cop.

I'm not specifying shit! We need only give the info the own needs to win. Any additional info only benefits Scum.

So, I could be a 1-shot Cop with one C (and thus I'm baiting the NK because they don't know that). I could be full Cop and we are in CC. I could be either 1-shot of full Cop and we are in CCC, or I could be full Cop with another full Cop in existence and we are in CCCC. Hell theoretically we could be in CCCCC and there are 2 full Cops and a 1-shot Cop and I could be either.

However, realistically we are in either C, CC or CCC. Now why give them the info when we don't need to?

[Judge Joseph Dredd]

What made you check Fred? I looked through your ISO, and you never made any mention of Fred on day one.

There has been nothing to mention in his posts, and you don't crumb your target as a Cop.

[Judge Joseph Dredd]

It's careless play if we lynch before a claim, because you can easily lynch a PR before a claim.

It's also careless play not to have lynched you and instead wagon others until we get a PR claim for the Scum to shoot at night.

[Judge Joseph Dredd]

Trust me, I've seen similar plays like this before, and from experienced mafia players. It wasn't on this site, but I have seen scum who know they aren't going to make it, make one last big play that delays there death but lowering the town numbers to help there partners survive.

And I ask again: Have you seen those same experienced mafia players hammer someone on D1 without a claim? You first have to decide of I'm an experienced/good player or not and then build on it. You can't have it both ways.

[Judge Joseph Dredd]

I think I'd buy into it 100% as truthful if he came out straight away with a vote on Fred, or even a mention of Fred, but he didn't, he waffled on defending himself, then comes out with the claim a page later.

That would be dumb for 3 reasons:
1- I'd be drawing a big red mark on my back that I am a Cop and have a guilty
2- That would not have given me what little chance I had to catch another scum through association
3- What makes you think you or any other would not have still doubted the claim and called it scum knowing they are going to be pushed so preemptively pushing someone else with a fake claim? Same same, my friend.

[Judge Joseph Dredd]

Why did you say you'd take responsibility for the lynch?

Why do you ask? (silly question in response to a silly question)

[Judge Joseph Dredd]

I fully agree that Mylo needs rope, but Fred is the lynch of the day. As I said it was between her and him I wanted to check anyway.

[Judge Joseph Dredd]

No one has questions for me?

I have a question for you: Why would I fake a guilty on you as either alignment? I mean, seriously .. you are not even active in the game and you aren't reading (or you would have know I did answer your question in the next post before you even asked it).

[Judge Joseph Dredd]

Also the "I dunno who his partners are" is a no go. If I'm scum and faking a result on you I must be Mafia. SK would never do that because it's basically game throwing and they will get lynched tomorrow.

So, not trying to find my partners is actually you keeping association tells to a minimum.

[Judge Joseph Dredd]

Pinturicchio,

Town Roleblocker

, was nuked and hoist by his own petard Night 2.

lolololololol

No comment! I guess I'll take the blame for that too. NP.

As for yesterday, well, that didn't help at all I suppose. It was worth a shot though. You guys were running me up like maniacs and I figured I'd try and get my strongest scum read lynched anyway, and it backfired. *Sigh*

Obviously, there is no SK here, so the Town may still stand a chance if you all drink your milk and eat your vegetables.

Feel free to run up everyone you want until they claim though.

Lynch away

. I humbly accept my fate.

[Judge Joseph Dredd]

Oh, yes we do. When town plays bad and guns for it's own PRs someone has to be crazy enough to try and stop it.

[Judge Joseph Dredd]

My advice is to lynch Mylo, Ugly Duck & good luck with their third.

The Scum are 2 goons and a Roleblocker.

I'm the Town Doctor, and Pintu RB'd ME last night (hence dying "by his own petard") and also why I said I take the blame for it.

Now what was the alternative? I would have had to claim my true role and then I would be NK'd anyway. Only you guys would've probably ran Pintu out of the bunch still and exposed him anyway, in which case scum would have RB'd me (rather than him doing it) and shot him still.

TL;DR stop being lazy and do NOT run people unless you intend to lynch them. A VT claim is no reason to pass on lynching someone in this setup.

[Judge Joseph Dredd]

You shouldn't. The right play here is to lynch me. That's what I'm saying.

HOWEVER, since you asked nicely.. I'll give you a hint. This is an alt of someone who knows how to read you well

Now DO NO OUT ME. I just want to have a little more fun with this account before it's exposed, but yeah. This is that someone you know too well and WOULD expect such crap from too

[Judge Joseph Dredd]

I guess it's time for me to go create another alt now. After all, it's only a matter of a few weeks before I have to quit my main... or maybe not.

[Judge Joseph Dredd]

@Mod: I know.. I know. Maybe I phrased it poorly, so allow me to rephrase:

hence why I found the flavour mentioning "by his own petard" so hilariously funny, and I said I'll take the blame for that.

Better??

[Judge Joseph Dredd]

He blocked me LAST NIGHT, Einstein. I was protecting him last night (and the night before) but after Fred flipped Town he thought the "traditional way" of "he lied thus he's scum" and blocked my protection on him.

The thing is I already have shown how this can't be the SK play because it's suicidal. Claiming Cop = NK'd by Mafia, and EVEN if I was SK and picked a 1-shot BP I was still getting shot the following night. It also helps that there's no 2nd kill for 2 nights, but some genius is going to assume I was blocked by Mafia on N1 and by Pintu on N2.

Anyway, claiming Cop as a Mafioso is more feasible, but it's still way beneath me (if you HAVE managed to recognize me, that is). So, I'm either the Doctor as per my last claim or I'm a lunatic VT who's playing it too risky. I mean, I could be CC'd now and could have been yesterday, so.. *Shrug*

VOTE: Mylo

or stay at me. Either way I'm good.

[Judge Joseph Dredd]

I can't be sure. I just assumed he did because I would have if I was him.

[Judge Joseph Dredd]

And besides, why would scum RB me when they know I was lying, unless -of course- they were stupid enough to think I was the SK. I mean, scum have to be really really stupid.. like dumb and dumber kind of stupid to thin that.

[Judge Joseph Dredd]

Gamma, are you paying attention? I would not have protected Korina if we were in LyLo, bro. The guy self-hammers himself for lols.

[Judge Joseph Dredd]

He DID hammer himself once IN LYLO... AS TOWN!

[Judge Joseph Dredd]

OFF SITE. But he admits doing it, so you can PM him about it if you like.

[Judge Joseph Dredd]

Oe you can ask Redfalvor.. Mathdino.. and a couple others

[Judge Joseph Dredd]

I did NOT. KORINA did. Redflavor knows about it (probably was in it, but I'm not sure), so he told Mathdino. Mathdino told me .. and told a few more people about it.

[Judge Joseph Dredd]

Plus, that isn't the main issue here.. I thought Pintu was a better town player than Korina and wanted him to stay alive over Korina regardless.

[Judge Joseph Dredd]

At this point, I'm just going to assume JJD is scum trolling now, because the alternative makes me want to throw up. For real, if you somehow are town here, you've probably just single-handedly cost us the game.

VOTE: JJD

And I'll do it all over again any given day if you fools keep running up town to claim.

[Judge Joseph Dredd]

OK.. congrats for winning, but don't be too proud of it. YOU yourself said I handed you the win. It wasn't because you were any good.

[Judge Joseph Dredd]

I can't believe town won after the clusterfuck JJD began, thanks for that! Ugly did a great job on D4, absolute carry of this game.

I roleblocked OK Nyeo twice thinking that he was the SK

It was bc of me the game got that easy. Think of me as a Town Vig who took care of all the questionable slots, leaving you guys to pick between black & white.

[Judge Joseph Dredd]

I can't believe town won after the clusterfuck JJD began, thanks for that! Ugly did a great job on D4, absolute carry of this game.

I roleblocked OK Nyeo twice thinking that he was the SK

It was bc of me the game got that easy. Think of me as a Town Vig who took care of all the questionable slots, leaving you guys to pick between black & white.

But... you only got rid of two questionable slots, yourself and Frederick. Every town member aside from possibly Laser had significant suspicion going into day 4.

I also hammered Sesq and didn't protect the crazy IC, and I kept the Mafia off UglyDuck to get his result. Ugly's play though won the game for real. Once he got the guilty he worked out the partners and drove the lynch on the one he didn't actually have a guilty on. UD certainly the hero here.

[Judge Joseph Dredd]

@Pintu: You're a bitter "winner". If I did fuck up, then how come the Mafia clowns (who kept calling me stupid and a clown myself) still lost? They thought I did them a favour, and were pretty sure they won the game and even "felt sorry for the Town".

@Mafia: How does it feel to have lost to a clown? Or rather, to a team that had a clown in it?

I can't believe people are whining instead of celebrating their win. If you don't understand just shut up and cheer for victory.

P.S. And NOBODY is talking about the most obvious mistakes you all did on D1: NOT FUCKING LYNCHING KOP WHEN HE CLAIMED A VT.

This was actually what triggered all subsequent incidents by me. I argued we should be lynching Kop still, and that would have flipped him as the GF, which would have given us more info as well as given UG certainty about his results from then on (not that he needed it, but it was THE RIGHT PLAY).

Bottom line: we won. If you like it, great. If you don't, suck it.

[Judge Joseph Dredd]

UD + MyLo played well after I got rid of the distractions.

[Judge Joseph Dredd]

And yes, that includes myself.

[Judge Joseph Dredd]

Despite the crazy jester shot, you mean?