Open 716: Making Friends and Enemies [Game Over]

[Mathdino]

FIRST

calling the mafia team as NSG/GuiltyLion/KMD/davesaz

VOTE: Kmd

and fkin lol at that week long deadline

[Mathdino]

Kmd is much more likely to take scum than GuiltyLion. Terrible wagon.

Also:

2. We are not to make any indications that we are a mason or that we have a partner. Don't imply anything. You don't need to breadcrumb when you're a mason. In fact, feel free to actively muddy the waters by nullreading your buddy, or nullscumreading them, or even hard-defending them if that's what you'd normally do. Unfortunately the masons might have to play a little scummier. That's okay. VTs can help by implying they might be a mason (that said don't clear someone because they're doing this).

3. We are not to association-hunt or VT-hunt. Don't call out 2 players as the scumteam. Don't call someone out and be like "well it looks like they're not a mason". Do not help scum.

If everyone agrees on this, then there won't be any problem with limiting scum's knowledge.

^Adapted from Masons & Monks because I'm too lazy to type this out again.

Basically

Mason setups are absolutely ruined when town does the scum's job of association hunting. Do not hunt for associations. Thx <3

[Mathdino]

ok but does gamma like playing scum tho

only scum would disagree with that kind of flawless logic

FoS: Gamma

[Mathdino]

STOP PUBLICLY MASON HUNTING

[Mathdino]

Honestly I think he's just as likely to say something like that as a VT. Scumslips don't happen.

The alignment choice thing is a joke reference to Team Mafia.

[Mathdino]

Townslips happen all the time! Scumslips don't happen in that way.

I admit scumslips do happen lategame but never on page 1.

I feel sufficiently pocketed by KMD that I'm even willing to wagon people for him!
VOTE: Verydark

Also whoever's voting pops for masonhunting is bad. Scum has no motivation to PUBLICLY masonhunt. It's just anti-town.

[Mathdino]

VOTE: Vote: Gamma Emerald

Saying "I have not the liberty of selecting anything about my alignment" instead of saying "I have not the liberty of selecting my alignment" suggests his alignment has two components - a side, and a set of people who share that alignment. A VT would be more likely to naturally construct the latter statement.

Doesn't really rule out a masonslip, but the quality of lynching someone who is mason/scum is significantly better than random lynching, so this is where my vote should go for now.

The more I look at this the more I feel like it's scum blatantly masonhunting hoping for refuge in audacity
VOTE: popsocftown

this doesn't read fake honestly

i don't really believe scum goes into the thread and thinks "how about i make everyone think i'm town by doing an obviously anti-town thing"

at least not a 2008er

mulch would obviously do that lol

[Mathdino]

NSG why the flying fuck are you not on this wagon

it can be a historic moment

we can show this wagon is some Serious Fucking Business

[Mathdino]

NSG is already town, but YOU KNOW IT MY FRIEND

[Mathdino]

honestly i was just about to say that guiltylion is probably the scum of the serious business team

[Mathdino]

honestly game is broken wide open if we just make NSG take the scum PM

no one will ever suspect us mwahahaha

[Mathdino]

if Kmd is scum I don't expect him to live to endgame for ~reasons~
on top of the fact that i'm townreading him

so yeah if there's scum on serious business my gut says it's GL with that spicy 2nd vote

[Mathdino]

i trust your townreads more than i trust your scumreads sorry

[Mathdino]

@GL: that kind of crazy twisty logic with no apparent point until many wallposts later is just something I expect from having looked at Sandos playstyle.

@Kmd: Is Dave ever townish? Null.

[Mathdino]

Request vote count.

This is gonna be one for the ages

Edit: ok both GL and NSG are harping on this shit
Gonna go metadive Sandos to see if anything can be AI

Vote Count of the Ages

Votee	Voters
verydark (5)	Kmd4390 (22), GuiltyLion (40), Mathdino (41), davesaz (47), northsidegal (54)
popsofctown (2)	BuJaber (30), Gamma Emerald (35)
Agent Sparkles (1)	verydark (6)
Gamma Emerald (1)	popsofctown (49)
GuiltyLion (1)	Sando (73)
Mathdino (1)	Agent Sparkles (16)

Not voting:

Kop, Myloninja13

[Mathdino]

Explain?

[Mathdino]

If anyone on serious business unvotes before we get this glorious votecount I'm vigging you

[Mathdino]

I too was gonna hop off immediately after the mod gave us a votecount
But now I'm definitely staying on lol

It's hard for me to see GLs vote as anything other than a test tbh

[Mathdino]

Thank you Sando

A wagon test

I've only skimmed but I don't believe you genuinely believe your own point and I doubt you scumclaim like that in front of all of us lol

I will read in depth in a sec

[Mathdino]

Never

[Mathdino]

VOTE: Mathdino

you're absolutely right that his "meta" point on you was weak and his "GL most likely to be scum" posts seem more like they're meant to discredit me and my reads rather than something he genuinely feels about my alignment

ah ok i misinterpreted

Sando, as I've seen, is the kind of player that is going to naturally produce a lot of content, most of which will be unreadable. I don't feel comfortable reading him either way without a solid background; if anything, moon logic is a standard towntell in my book. I think in the long run he can be motivation-read, but that's useless for early D1.

I don't know how to respond to the "GL most likely scum on the team" point. I think you misinterpreted me saying "i trust your townreads more than your scumreads" as me saying "i don't trust your alignment", when I really mean "if you're town, i will sheep you on your townreads but not necessarily your scumreads, and in this case i don't think you're onto something".

If it looks like I'm being lazy communicating, you're right. We're in a weird position of having a few players that are likely to post less than once a day. So far the gamestate reads to me as almost all the active players being town too (something I've seen happen). I want to see more people weigh in.

Re: Verydark: I was hard townreading his reaction but I really can't get past the self-vote. People on MS self-vote way too much nowadays and it's gotten to the point of making scum-AtE incredibly viable because no one's willing to lynch that shit.

@Verydark:

What the fuck was the town motivation in leaving yourself open to a scumhammer?

[Mathdino]

You were already voting for me, so pretty minimal risk, I suppose.

You think all 3 scum were on your wagon?

[Mathdino]

What wagon test do you think I'm doing?

[Mathdino]

...the fuck?

When you self-voted, you put yourself at L-1. Unless all 3 scum were on your wagon, scum could hammer. So I'm asking you, did you think all 3 scum were on your wagon?

And in what post do you think I advocated for an expedited lynch?

[Mathdino]

you have a very strange interpretation of the game of forum mafia

and of my posts

go quote the posts where it appears as if i advocated lynching you and highlight the parts that you think my reasoning was

[Mathdino]

Why use anyone for a wagon? Gets the game going. Kmd seemed town and I figured sheeping him would be a fine place to start.

I don't kid-glove people just because I think they have the chance of reacting immaturely or gamethrowy. Early wagons are good for the gamestate.

I think verydark dropped a strong towntell prior to the self-vote but I also vowed to not let self-voters live due to getting utterly fucked by a super townish scum self-vote in Not_Mafia's game (and getting fucked by Gamma's horribad self-hammer). Call it policy. People who are willing to go so far as to say "LOOK AT ME, JUST GET IT OVER WITH AND HAMMER ME" are very VERY capable of faking those kinds of reactions as scum. It's a disgusting meta.

[Mathdino]

NSG why the flying fuck are you not on this wagon

it can be a historic moment

we can show this wagon is some Serious Fucking Business

...this work for you?

Hello everybody! Let’s get some scum!

VOTE: Agent Sparkles

...the post that caused you to want to create a "historical moment"

NSG is not typically someone that votes unless she's definitely scumreading someone. I in no way actually believed NSG would scumread you for that post or just because Kmd and I both approved of it.

Kmd, GL, davesaz, NSG and I are all on the same team in Team Mafia ("Serious Business"), and when the mod posted the votecount I realised the entire verydark wagon was 4/5 of our team. I asked NSG to jump on for the meme of having a 100% team approved wagon. She obliged. I had no expectation of actually bringing your wagon to a lynch.

[Mathdino]

You certainly had no problem getting me to L-2, so what's the difference? Can we just call your "wagon test" a part of RVS and keep it moving? Only 5 people have even posted in the last few hours.

And yes, wagoning people is literally what RVS is about. The other wagon option was pops, who I was townreading, and Gamma, who made a bad vote but isn't scum for it. You I was nullreading.

[Mathdino]

I think verydark dropped a strong towntell prior to the self-vote but I also vowed to not let self-voters live due to getting utterly fucked by a super townish scum self-vote in Not_Mafia's game (and getting fucked by Gamma's horribad self-hammer). Call it policy. People who are willing to go so far as to say "LOOK AT ME, JUST GET IT OVER WITH AND HAMMER ME" are very VERY capable of faking those kinds of reactions as scum. It's a disgusting meta.

So can we just chalk this up to newbie? you can look at the last game I played, I didn't even know self-voting was an allowable game mechanic. I'm still getting my "mafia voice". I don't endorse a quick lynch ever though, so let's get it right on D1.

Your quicklynch becomes more likely when you self-vote. That's why I'm trying to figure out the town motivation from it.

Here's the idea:
As town, you should (rightfully) be afraid of a scumhammer on you.

As scum, you know for sure that scum won't just lolhammer you, and most town would avoid doing that.

So you should be much more afraid of being at L-1 as town than scum.

When you freaked the fuck out at your wagon initially, I hard-townread that. Because scum wouldn't really have reason to be afraid.

But then you self-voted, which completely negated your whole "NO DONT LYNCH ME I DONT WANNA DIE" persona.

[Mathdino]

Kmd, GL, davesaz, NSG and I are all on the same team in Team Mafia ("Serious Business"), and when the mod posted the votecount I realised the entire verydark wagon was 4/5 of our team.

Urgh, really, the entire wagon was a reaction test for verydark and a meme-wagon?

I was willing to give benefit of doubt with some reasoning on the wagon itself, but combined with the vacillating on the townreads that does not seem to be your playstyle, yeah I think a lot of this was dodgy as hell.

It's a disgusting meta.

Agreed, but you've never actually said why it's a scum meta, and you're tunnelling him now, and you've stated your vote is 'for realsies'. Your reads don't feel like normal Mathdino reads this game.

Early wagons are reaction tests on everyone. See who jumps on it (and why), see how people react to it (as people are doing). I don't think I need to lecture people here on RVS mafia theory. There was explicitly 0 reasoning on the wagon. So what about it was alignment indicative for me?

See the above post for the uncertainty on verydark.

I'm curious what games specifically you're using as a baseline for my playstyle, since a lot of your read on me is based on it.

[Mathdino]

We're in an ongoing game. I've done very VERY basic meta on him (skimmed ISOs in other games) and basically determined that crazy twisty wallposting is just his playstyle, and isn't scum-indicative. Hence immediate disapproval of GL's scumread on him.

I haven't done extensive meta to actually be able to pick apart his scumgame, but I plan to do so when things calm down a bit. Late-night metadives are relaxing.

[Mathdino]

UNVOTE:

aaand I'll jump off (but leave my vote there in spirit).

[Mathdino]

My reads on people go haywire when people self-vote. It's like I shortcircuit. If you asked me pointblank to give a definitive read there, I don't think I could tell you. I do think it objectively deserves rope.

I think the self-vote nullified what was originally going to be the decisive towntell. Read 127. The towntell was specifically him freaking out at being on the brink of dying (because oh no scum could hammer me). This is completely nullified to hell and back with the self-vote, which is a clear indication of apathy as to what happens to him (and an indication that I don't really want him in the game).

It's inconsistent. Anyone who goes far enough to AtE the game up by self-voting is capable of faking that as scum. If it was just the "stop voting me guys" shit, I'd be townreading that (and assuming that he wouldn't fake that as scum).

So I guess I scumlean him due to the inconsistency. But I'm also mad policythirsty right now.

[Mathdino]

Kmd started it (and is town). NSG is town for other reasons. dave isn't really easy to read. I'm still developing my read on GL. And no one else jumped on it.

Gamma is reacting to it still. verydark produced an inconsistent reaction. And you're sitting here talking to me.

I don't have all my reads ready yet but the fact that you don't see results from me fucking around early game doesn't mean what I do lacks purpose.

Consider that not everyone would get the Team Mafia in-jokes (which I was completely aware of), and reactions to THAT could also be potentially AI.

[Mathdino]

I already think pops is town so just gonna take dave's word on it until pops reposts it to be something actually readable

[Mathdino]

I come back here, there's some new abbreviation called NIA, and it looks too similar to IIoA which makes me worry that acronym perished, and then somehow there is a majority sentiment against "hypocrisy is a scumtell". Time to go watch Robin Williams perform in Jumanji again.

I mean NSG following The Way of the Dinosaur makes me happy and all, but if you have evidence that hypocrisy more often comes from scum than town, I'll modify my toolbox.

As it is I'm a pretty Bayesian type. I see town being raging hypocrites more often than I see scum doing it. I have a whole list of "things people think are scumtells that are not scumtells". Most of them WERE scumtells like 5 years ago but have faded with changing site meta.

[Mathdino]

Information Instead of Analysis. A fantastic scumtell, but not one that people fall into very often because of how obvious it is.

[Mathdino]

but if you have evidence that hypocrisy more often comes from scum than town, I'll modify my toolbox.

Do you mean hypocrisy as in "

you did the same thing as me, it's scummy from you but not from me

", or "

person A and person B did the same thing, I read person A as scummy and person B as town

". There's a town motivation for the first, since they know they're alignment, so yeah they tend to be hypocritical there. But if you think something is scummy, to selectively apply it between two people you ostensibly don't have alignment info about, that doesn't have a town motivation.

Or are you just saying townies are idiots and cause this not to be a useful tell?

The former. The latter is definitionally not hypocrisy. It's inconsistency/selective application of reasoning.

But townies are also idiots

[Mathdino]

@Mod:

The nature of this playerlist and this site is such that you're going to have multiple players who are unlikely to post daily.

Hard-request deadline extension of at least few days.

The short nature of the deadline was not advertised in the queue and without stricter activity requirements, a deadline this short is near unplayable.

I'd appreciate if anyone else could get on board with this. A week deadline makes sense for, say, 7p, but not at all for 13p imo.

[Mathdino]

Where I'm at:

Agent Sparkles: Earnest town.
BuJaber: Has done nothing to make me think he's town.
davesaz: Can be townbinned pending meta review. Wouldn't lynch him today ever.
Gamma Emerald: Whenever I think I can read him, I'm proven wrong. I literally haven't seen him play scum lately so I'm on edge here.
GuiltyLion: I don't know wtf is up with his push but will evaluate when he gets back. Still scumreading but mostly off gut.
kmd4390: Town. Won't survive if scum; bad lynch candidate today.
Kop: Literally hasn't posted.
Myloninja13: Literally hasn't posted.
northsidegal: HARD TOWN.
popsofctown: Highly likely town.
Sando: A bucketload of NAI things. Need to metadive.
verydark: Lynchable.

Lynchpool: {Bujaber, GL, Kop, Mylo, verydark}
Neverlynchpool: {NSG, pops, Kmd, Agent}

[Mathdino]

We're not getting that deadline extension.

davesaz is now locktown btw.

Verydark wagon: Town on the wagon is Kmd, davesaz, NSG, Gamma (if scumflip), Agent. Scum on the wagon is GL (formerly), Gamma (if townflip).

Mathdino wagon: Agent vote doesn't count. Either of these could be scum IMO. And to preempt verydark calling this OMGUS (I know GL wouldn't), I was scumreading both of these players before they voted me.

Gamma vs pops: TvT

GL vote: Goodvote I guess?

pops vote: Badvote.

What's inevitably gonna happen here is people will come in, check the thread, and go "wow there's like no resistance to the verydark wagon, fuckin weird". Except the only possible scum currently willing to lynch verydark is Gamma, while I'm explicitly being counterwagoned.

So to preempt that bad logic, consider that if the scumteam is literally something like, say, verydark/Bujaber/Kop, scum doesn't have the activity or the presence to stop the verydark lynch at all. The "this wagon has no resistance" metric only applies if enough people are actually active for everyone to affirm that they're okay with the lynch.

FMPOV, there's a 46% chance there's scum in Kop/Mylo already. Add in a scumbuddy of GL, Sando, or Bujaber, and verydark-scum works just fine.

So yeah I'll be voting there once NSG or davesaz pulls their RVS vote off.

[Mathdino]

*shrug*... I never really thought of him as someone with a scummy style until he told us he sees himself that way. I'd have to go back and look, but I feel like I've usually townread him in the past. If our verydark wagon turns out to be on town, dave's vote was the one that stood out to me as possible opportunism.

I once mislynched him and I see him get scumread a lot so.

Regardless, I heavily disagree with the opportunism read, and think Gamma's vote is much fishier.

[Mathdino]

11 days is fantastic. Personally I do 14 days for fairness' sake but I also selfishly believe 11 days is better for town.

[Mathdino]

oh wow i didn't notice 131

i'm dayvigging anyone who talks about masons thanks

masonhunting is literally role-indicative, please no

[Mathdino]

stop quote walling

b) I think he might have still not gotten it as scum, but it's more the combo of over-reaction + selfvote that points to him being scum.
c) why? I know some idiots self-vote as PR but I don't think anyone would self-vote as mason, they already have their alignment proven to one person. Honestly what I'd do as mason under those circumstances is try make use of the recruit to try and show Mathdino I was town.

While I agree with (B), (C) is an awful point. There are no protectives in this setup. I don't see any avenue for me making it to endgame here. If you were verydark, and you were a mason, recruiting me would literally be the worst decision.

Still pretty confident in arguing Gamma is the scum on the verydark wagon. This doesn't say anything about verydark's alignment, to be clear. Tit for Tat reminds me that I need to be more wary of bussing; I thought site meta had shifted against it, but alas, scumteams are still self-destructive.

My townbloc at this point is something I'm fairly convinced on.
Town = NSG/dave
Likely town = Kmd/Agent/pops
"To-read list" = Sando, GuiltyLion
Fucking post = Kop/Mylo
Scumlean = BuJaber, Gamma (mfw GL sheeping-without-sheeping my scumreads)
Lynch pls = verydark

I want more commentary on this. Gamma, I specifically wanna know who you think other scum would be.

[Mathdino]

So ya'll think scum is on my wagon or nah?

i mean are you reading the game

many of us have given reads on the people on your wagon, do you have any commentary

@Gamma: Fair. Bujaber is probably the token busbuddy then if verydark is scum.

[Mathdino]

STANDARD REMINDER TO NOT TALK ABOUT MASONS OR WHETHER SOMEONE MIGHT CLAIM MASON

seriously guys you have no idea how easy it is to PR hunt, especially in setups like this

also i have to kick myself for making the occasional association when we should definitely still not be pointing out any associatives

[Mathdino]

Nom northsidegal for Rising Star.

Will have to do a proper meta dive, but North types with clarity and insight with nearly every post they make.

North only votes Scum in this game.

[Mathdino]

fuck wrong thread sorry

VOTE: verydark

L-1, let's get our claim

[Mathdino]

UNVOTE:

that's actually unfair, not sure if dave or Kmd are okay with this wagon still

carry on

Gamma wagon is good

[Mathdino]

STANDARD REMINDER TO NOT TALK ABOUT MASONS OR WHETHER SOMEONE MIGHT CLAIM MASON

Put up or shut up dude. I'm literally voting him for his terrible talk about masons, and I figured I'd actually give reasoning. Your constant "I'm dayvigging masontalk" is getting old and tired and you've shown absolutely no intention to actually follow through with it. Either do what you said you're gonna do and actually go after the mason talkers, or shut the hell up about it, it's starting to look like you're just trying for towncred.

Why should I follow through with it? It's NAI. Town does anti-town things.

Mason setups that town loses are losses 80% of the time because town does all the masonhunting for scum. Last mason game I played, someone literally called the masonry as the scumteam.

I don't think you realise the extent to which some things can be role indicative. PR hunting on this site is easy. I'm on a campaign to make it harder.

[Mathdino]

Gamma, the point here is that it would be insane for the masonry to recruit me to prove themselves as town when I'm by far the most likely NK.

[Mathdino]

*When KMD, GL or I am by far among the most likely NKs

[Mathdino]

That's L-1

[Mathdino]

davesaz is now locktown btw.

Gamma vs pops: TvT

Huh? Why?

Re: davesaz: Feel free to do your own research on him. Obviously if he does things that are blatantly pro-scum over the course of the game, my read is invalidated, but I'm comfortable putting him as "neverlynch unless flips incriminate him".

Re: Gamma/pops: I no longer agree with that read. pops is town for the "openly masonhunting in the thread drawing attention" thing. Gamma I thought was town for the "pushing rolefishers being entirely what I'd expect from Gamma-town-meta".
His response to some things with the verydark wagon were actually pretty townish, so at this point if I had to call scum on-wagon it'd be Bujaber.

[Mathdino]

I'm not locking him as town because I like him. Dave's interpretation was correct. I'm locking him as town because I know him (and I spent 20 minutes metadiving him when I made that post).

[Mathdino]

I hardtownread NSG and dave. Kmd has done a metric shitton of pro-town things and so I'm townbinning him until we get some spicy flips. GuiltyLion... NSG has good logic there. The way he misinterpreted me, pushed me, and backed off I guess seems genuine. Granted, Thor665 literally just did that to me as scum when I was tunneling him sooooo

If scum's on the Meme Team, I still think it's GL. But there's not even any case there (it's legit just a "if you put a gun to my head" gutread). I just know Kmd and GL are good at scum and maybe could've faked all the pro-town behaviour.

[Mathdino]

hoo boy do i have to respond to this train-heading-over-a-cliff post
does scum-verydark seriously try to push me here

From post 161 and earlier, davesaz had contributed very little of value, incorrectly named a player, and his last post before Mathdino confirmed him as "locktown" was 8 hours prior, which was:
[snip]
He just commented on the BBcode gore and called out a single post as town motivated.

How does this make davesaz locktown?

dave's interpretation was correct. I'd rather not explain this read.
That said, how is me doing a bunch of research on someone and coming back and calling a non-influential player locktown something scum indicative to you?

FMPOV, there's a 46% chance there's scum in Kop/Mylo already. Add in a scumbuddy of GL, Sando, or Bujaber, and verydark-scum works just fine.

So yeah I'll be voting there once NSG or davesaz pulls their RVS vote off.

I also don't understand your math here, I'm sure 46% was a joke, but you're indicated that 2 lurkers out of 13 players, give a 50% chance of scum.

...ummmm, doubtful.

No, that wasn't a joke, that was literally me doing the math. There is actually a 46% chance one of them is scum. If you lock NSG as obvtown, it increases to 49% and locking dave as town puts it at 54%. Add in a few other townies and...
It has 0 to do with their content (they always lurk). Just has to do with how I'm townreading a bunch of other slots and it's just mathematically likely one of them is scum.

I'm going on my gut here, but in my last game, it wasn't the lurkers that were scum...it was the person incessantly posting meaningless content, quote walls, and general "clutter" to the game. I had scum leaned that person on D1, and low and behold, they were. I get that there's a variety of game methodology and playstyles, but I just get huge scum vibes from Mathdino, and it's not even an OMGUS thing anymore.

- Meaningless content: I've posted reads on every player who's posted and done wagon analysis on your wagon (in the case of your townflip) and the me wagon. You don't seem to have any commentary on the your-wagon commentary.

- Quote walls: Would you prefer I not respond to people? YOUR POST WAS JUST A QUOTE WALL

- Clutter: Calculate the percentage of my posts that have advanced the gamestate, and then calculate yours. I'll begrudgingly accept 243 as a gamestate advancing post. But to call my posts clutter from your position is really

[Mathdino]

Please quote all the posts in which you think I'm doing so.

NSG townslipped AND is locktown by meta. Dave is the only player who's locktown solely by meta (although I'd be townreading him without the meta anyway).

[Mathdino]

Don't worry about it then, as long as you remember not to lynch her (with the usual caveat of "unless she's blatantly pro-scum").

I disagree with 253 although I realise Kop might legitimately believe it. Just a very very quick skim of his other games (his newbie games in particular) indicate that he often doesn't really know what to say even after a lot of content has been generated.

I agree the "good play" thing to do is that, but asking for suggestions on things to look at is totally NAI.

[Mathdino]

Kmd4390 tears me apart in several subsequent posts, but sprinkles in some other players to make it not feel like an outright tunnel/attack on me. Also says

he's townreading northsidegal, which I agree with, and makes him more likely scum

.

what the absolute fuck is this reads list

[Mathdino]

thank you, i've been called very helpful in almost every one of my games, i appreciate that

[Mathdino]

yes, please do

[Mathdino]

yes

could you please make a reads list with reads that make sense?

[Mathdino]

Town or Town-Leaning Reads

Myloninja

lurked and posted infrequently in my last game, so if we are giving meta reads, I'd say he's town.

You realise that my meta reads are based on knowledge of players' towngames AND scumgames? Do you have any meta on Mylo that shows that he's not playing he's scumgame? He's literally done absolutely nothing. That's totally NAI.

Sando

is at least trying to dig deeper into peoples posts and I think is town.

That's Sando's playstyle, but okay whatever.

northsidegal

even though she's on my wagon, she has made some consistently good points. Especially post 272 where she disagrees with voting for a lurker over your confirm scum tell.

This is a towntell for NSG, so yeah, okay, you lucked out.

Agent Sparkles

is demonstrating a more slow and methodical method of gameplay which I identify with (sans my incident earlier)

You're townreading him for his PLAYSTYLE?

GuiltyLion

made some valid points about BuJaber I wouldn't have noticed otherwise. I also generally agree with everything he's posted.

I mean he's fantastic as scum but I can see where this is coming from.

Scum or Scum-Leaning Reads

Mathdino

(for the reasons I've already mentioned)

Reasons that have been completely unbacked up.

BuJaber

(see above)

Sure.

Kmd4390

tears me apart in several subsequent posts, but sprinkles in some other players to make it not feel like an outright tunnel/attack on me. Also says he's townreading northsidegal, which I agree with, and makes him more likely scum.

What? Do you think he SHOULD be 100% tunneling you? Do you think Kmd-town 100% tunnels you?
And how the fuck is townreading NSG a scummy thing to do???

Neutral Reads

davesaz

seems experienced and I appreciated the gut meta reads comment (which is towny) I still can't shake how weird it is that Mathdino considered him "locktown" so early.

So just so we're clear.
You're nullreading davesaz.
Because I, a scumread, considers him locktown.
And you think I would hard-defend my scumbuddy off meta.
Is that accurate?

kop

has 4 posts, no opinion

SO DOES MYLONINJA. KOP HAS ACTUALLY PROVIDED READABLE CONTENT.

GammaEmerald

posts quote walls and follows up with a single sentence or question, I can't get a read yet

What? What's wrong or unreadable about that? This is IIoA.

popsofctown

hasn't posted too much, I liked the follow up questions to me, but also disagree with his most recent post about questioning my wagon being anti-town.

So literally you just like him when he's nice to you and you don't like him when he's not.

Got it.

[Mathdino]

STANDARD REMINDER TO NOT TALK ABOUT MASONS OR WHETHER SOMEONE MIGHT CLAIM MASON

seriously guys you have no idea how easy it is to PR hunt, especially in setups like this

also i have to kick myself for making the occasional association when we should definitely still not be pointing out any associatives

[Mathdino]

Gamma, I would prefer you stop defending yourself, yes.

Gamma's town IMO. He's not getting lynched today.

[Mathdino]

I think it would help if you went through my ISO and Ctrl+F'd mentions of "Sando".

If you still think I've "scumread, townread, and now null-read" you at varying points, quote the posts and let me know.

[Mathdino]

If you think I'm at all impressed with Gamma's play this game, you've got me very wrong

Bunch of posts I don't think scum would make, basically.

[Mathdino]

I think it's infinitely entertaining that everyone who's in team mafia or have inside jokes make these brazen "NOT HAPPENING TODAY" posts. It's lame as fuck and so "internet" it hurts.

I'm sufficiently annoyed with this at this point.
VOTE: verydark

It has nothing to do with team mafia, inside jokes, or the internet. I literally mean "I do not want Gamma to be lynched today, as he's easier to read as the game goes on".

[Mathdino]

I'm sufficiently annoyed with this at this point.

Likewise.

Not like I made an entire post asking you tons of questions about your reads and you instead spend your time fucking complaining about my fucking wording.

[Mathdino]

Like I seriously don't know what you expect actively antagonising me at this point while I'm off your wagon.

[Mathdino]

the fuck?

are you harping on me for my use of the word "literally" right now?

i "literally" said that i MEAN that sentence

if people on this forum say "we're not lynching [x] today" that is almost universally what they mean

[Mathdino]

You were off my wagon because you wanted to convince everyone that you're going to be the NK.

i can't even begin to understand this argument honestly

[Mathdino]

The "I can read him so we should let him live despite the fact that I will die" is very weak in isolation, I agree.

But he says Gamma is town, is asked why he's impressed (ie why is he reading town), and responds with "what, I don't read town". That's the utter bullshit.

gamma is OBJECTIVELY easier to read as the game goes on

most of his towngames consist of people getting pissed off at his D1 play and then locking him as town in lategame

like you guys are trying to create inconsistencies out of my ISO

which, like, if you're trying really hard and have a sufficiently large number of posts to work with, is relatively easy

but it's also not a reason i'm scum

[Mathdino]

Math got mad because I "antagonized" him.

1) This is mafia
2) What the actual fuck have you been doing to me this whole game?

antagonising your PLAY

- antagonising the fact that you self-voted despite being afraid of a scumhammer

- antagonising the fact that all you seemed to do afterward is go after me for bad reasons

- antagonising the fact that you contained, in your reads list, "Kmd agrees NSG is town, which makes him more likely to be scum"

you on the other hand, instead of responding to ANYTHING GAME RELEVANT

ARE BITCHING ABOUT MY WORDING AND HOW INTERNET IT IS

[Mathdino]

My main thrust is the utter bullshit he's spouting about his own reads. He says Gamma is town, is asked to justify, claims he doesn't actually think he's town, just an easy-read lategamer.

when the fuck did i say that i don't actually think gamma is town

i feel like you're just hipfiring all your statements about my ISO tbh

you still haven't gotten back to me about those posts where i allegedly townread/scumread/nullread you

[Mathdino]

If you think I'm at all impressed with Gamma's play this game, you've got me very wrong

Bunch of posts I don't think scum would make, basically.

I meant to quote your whole 319

are you reading?

if i say gamma has made a bunch of posts that i don't think scum would make

i am saying that gamma is town

[Mathdino]

@GL: that kind of crazy twisty logic with no apparent point until many wallposts later is just something I expect from having looked at Sandos playstyle.

Null

Sando, as I've seen, is the kind of player that is going to naturally produce a lot of content, most of which will be unreadable. I don't feel comfortable reading him either way without a solid background;

if anything, moon logic is a standard towntell in my book.

Townish

Sando: A bucketload of NAI things. Need to metadive.

Back to null

FMPOV, there's a 46% chance there's scum in Kop/Mylo already. Add in a scumbuddy of GL, Sando, or Bujaber, and verydark-scum works just fine.

Happy to lynch, literally your next post.

Where have you done any reading of me that ISN'T playstyle?

109: moon logic being a standard towntell doesn't mean that i think you're town, it means that moon logic is not a scumtell, and is a standard towntell that i like to use
if i said i thought you were town, i would've said so

154: this is consistent with every mention of you in my ISO, the "i think a lot of elements of Sando's playstyle are NAI"

161: HOW CAN YOU POSSIBLY READ THAT AND THINK THAT I'M HAPPY TO LYNCH YOU TODAY

[Mathdino]

and i apologise for not seeing that post, as that was at the bottom of a page and i did not realise that post was even made

[Mathdino]

can we just point out by the way that i was actually accused of lurking this game despite having over 50% more posts than the 2nd highest poster

[Mathdino]

hey sando

how come you're willing to lynch verydark right away

yet i seem to be your strongest scumread (unless i'm misinterpreting some things)

and i'm one of the biggest proponents of verydark's wagon/he's hardscumreading me

[Mathdino]

NO PLEASE STOP DEFENDING YOURSELF

DO LITERALLY ANYTHING ELSE GAMMA

[Mathdino]

probably wait a bit, i just like you being at L-1

don't claim yet

[Mathdino]

sure

VOTE: Bujaber

NGL i still think there are/have been scum on your wagon even in the case that you're scum

[Mathdino]

We know...we want you to claim or gtfo. You've got one who's already said they have intent to hammer and are waiting on claim, so that's already above half, and feel free to add me to that list. So no, we're not waiting on people who don't know what's happening.

This is worded as if you're also on the list of people who have intent to hammer.

[Mathdino]

But where are you getting the thought on me wanting to kill verydark right away? Because of my 'intent to lynch' parrot on pops? I'm trying to emphasise that verydark is verywrong (lolpun) about the idea that half the players don't even know what's going on.

"Intent to hammer" literally means "I intend to hammer if you do not claim or if you claim VT". I don't see how that's anything but being willing to kill him right away.

[Mathdino]

can one of you guys figure out if scum-verydark decides the best thing he can be doing with his time is shitting on my wording while my vote was off him

like is he that bad at scumplay

[Mathdino]

Hey dave, how often are the "people who scumread davesaz for his playstyle" actually scum?

Cuz IIRC in Masons and Monks it was basically all town that went after you.

[Mathdino]

i don't think you're tainting anything, FWIW, and would prefer you stay in

but i understand where you're coming from and if you think the risk is that high, i get it

[Mathdino]

I'm pretty sure Sando is town for this now that I think about it.

[Mathdino]

I'd like davesaz to corroborate that lead as well.

Kind of angleshooty but w/e.

[Mathdino]

it's a good thing i wasn't scumreading sando in the first place then
smart is easier to read i think so this is probably good

i'm starting to PoE myself out of possible scumteams though

like i think scum has to be in {Kop, Mylo}

and then probably scum in {verydark, Bujaber}

but then what

are we to lynch in the meme team

[Mathdino]

Hello!

This game is too Serious... I think it needs to get a little more Relaxed

[Mathdino]

GL who the fuck is the scumteam

we can't all be town

[Mathdino]

If BuJaber is scum, he's not scum for his wording functionally claiming survivor

And Smart is certainly not scum with BuJaber lol

[Mathdino]

Oh, thanks too, Math.

I know I'm not out of the crosshairs. We'll reconvene tomorrow.

My next moves are basically waiting on this, which was promised 4 days ago.

[Mathdino]

While I do attack people dramatically and hyperbolically (on purpose, despite how some call it misrep), my comments on your reads list were genuine. I don't understand at all your view of the gamestate.

Welp I'm going to go have a smoke, check back in, then go to bed.

If ya'll wanna do this tonight, fine. But I think the PRO TOWN thing to do would be hear from the other half dozen players that don't even know this is happening right now.

See you in 5.

We've now heard from the other half dozen players. Any updates?

[Mathdino]

Do you have more on your Kmd read?

[Mathdino]

Myloninja13 (2)

Kop (253), davesaz (266)

This is one of the most ironic votecounts I've ever seen.

Request prod on Myloninja and davesaz

.

I'm good with basically policy lynching a lurker if this is how it's gonna be. Letting this game sputter out when it hits 5p or 3p is not my cup of tea.

[Mathdino]

i've kinda been taking a backseat trying to see what people are gonna do in the meantime

FWIW i do agree with the bujaber scumread, just not the specific tell you're using

idk i'm not really sure how to move the gamestate forward here

lowkey itching for a policy lynch on kop/mylo knowing they won't be active

[Mathdino]

He asked us nicely to take our votes off to give him breathing room and we did so with the implicit agreement that he wasn't off the hook.

This Bujaber wagon kinda just came outta nowhere.

[Mathdino]

I thought you were already voting him

I was surprised and confused you are not

[Mathdino]

No I'm just floored by this conversation happening right now

If there was ever a situation for too scummy to be scum, it's this one

[Mathdino]

He asked us nicely to take our votes off to give him breathing room and we did so with the implicit agreement that he wasn't off the hook.

This Bujaber wagon kinda just came outta nowhere.

I figured there was at least 2 scum on my wagon, I think you and Gamma demonstrated town motivation by giving me that breathing room, and I originally had you both as scum-leaning. After re-reading I think you've both also added valuable insight to the game.

UNVOTE: Gamma

I'm thinking there's still scum on my wagon though, it's pretty obvious you both would quickly switch your vote back to me. Scum moving their vote around would probably be more suspicious.

I had kmd and Bujaber on my scum list and sparkles as town.

I don't know if I want to vote for Bujaber at the moment though, because that would be perceived as opportunistic.

Bolding mine. If he thinks this way as town, he's unreadable at best.

[Mathdino]

Yeah it's only townish in a too scummy to be scum way

Literally "i don't want to be perceived as optimistic so I'm not voting a scumread in self preservation"

[Mathdino]

the bolded line is towny, what are you talking about?

I mean if you want my blessing you can vote me I take it as a compliment when scumreads vote me.

can you post a basic reads list

smart is town, i have very little understanding of where your head's at

[Mathdino]

...there are 3 scum and 10 town

isn't it good that you have 2 scumreads and 2 scumleans

[Mathdino]

And S_S doesn't see how not voting a scumread is maybe something scum is more likely to do than town. There is just such a broad and massive refusal to approach mafia in a Bayesian way in this playerbase that everything is pointless. You guys do whatever you want.

oi read the article in my signature

[Mathdino]

hey kmd (and GL when you're caught up)

say/ask something to get me interested in this game again? it doesn't feel like there's much to analyse or push right now

like i'm hella nervous about verydark here

[Mathdino]

verydark I did play with briefly and spectated the rest of the game when I had to replace out, he was town, he's posting the same way here. He's another lynchbait target. I could find the link upon request of the previous game. (I'm just lazy and not going to right now)

alright this is very good to know

so it looks like your only scumread is BuJaber, and you're townreading/nullreading basically everyone else

does that mean you've PoE'd yourself out of a scumteam?

i'm kind of in the same boat tbh, if bujaber flips town here then i'm gonna have to take a pickaxe to my ever expanding townbloc

[Mathdino]

egehgehhgehghhhhhh

i buy it

i think we're gonna need a flip to really spice things up

[Mathdino]

Verydark still looks like a good lynch.

I'm suspicious of how trusting of each other the meme team seem to be. I think at least one of them is likely to be scum and is/are under pressure to look townie in front of them. I'm gonna do a reread tomorrow night and see if I can narrow it down.

I think it's Dave.
He said TR'd guilty for 2 posts looking like town without saying what about them looks town.
His only real scumread is on mylonnia which is an easy read to make at the moment.
His posts seems rather detached and passive like he doesn't want to create waves. Several of which are about wording and general things like that that don't require sorting people.

Good job identifying my playstyle.

was referring specifically to this post

i guess i'm more asking for the general trend so i can then apply it to bujaber

but i wasn't asking you whether or not you were scumreading bujaber, no, was more asking for info that would help me read bujaber

[Mathdino]

feels like there's dangerously low resistance to both the bujaber and verydark wagons tbh

i mean i've seen that with scum lynches but mostly with lurksack teammates

and i'm townreading Smart and LUV/NSG :/

[Mathdino]

thing is i'm also townreading agent sparkles's slot, and brassherald seems like an awful D1 lynch

i just have little motivation to try to rile the town onto a whole new wagon when
- i could just be shitting myself, maybe there's scum in verydark/bujaber and the scumteam is bussing/distancing/halfassing a push
- more wagons is not necessarily good in this setup
- it's hard to do pre-flip associatives here

so i'm really not opposed to a flip here even if i'm paranoid (i'm always paranoid)

Edit: doubt scumteam goes full D1 bussing here, only bussing option is a half-assed one

[Mathdino]

thing is i'm also townreading agent sparkles's slot

why?

Alright here we go

[snip]

Would like to see a follow-up on this, even if it's late. Although I wasn't swayed by pop's post either, the lack of any obvious thought in this vote is off-putting.

GL's naked wagon vote in 40 looks slightly scummy/opportunistic with the way it came out of the blue, the main difference from the others being the serious tone in it (most of the others are obviously messing around0).

My early impression of pop is that he's chasing what's almost a non-point with Gamma but not necessarily scum for it. The whole mindset about masons is obviously bad and anti-town, but I'm actually kind of leaning green with his follow-up on it. Openly acknowledges the cost of saying too much, but still doesn't back down or make a concession despite the backlash. And really, I just don't see the scum motivation behind it. It could come just as easily from town.

Okay, first strong read.

Verydark played the newbie and frustration cards

way

too hard when he came back and it's not believable.

[snip]

You'd most newer players to get frustrated at being wagoned, but this kind of reaction from his first 20 minutes in the spotlight...? Everything I bolded on here looks like either forcing as much frustration as possible (I especially cringed at the "chill out, good grief") or cheaply guilt-tripping everyone on his wagon. Then this happens:

[snip]

....he just selfvotes and resigns himself to the lynch before most of us can even respond. 95% of the time I've seen an emotional self-vote like this it's been completely manufactured and a clumsy attempt to gain towncred, because there's just no reason for town to actually do this. It also makes it harder to believe his later claim that he thought he was in immediate danger of a scum hammer (which no reasonable scum would do, but that's another discussion).

Reading ahead, some of this stuff has already been pretty well explained by other people. I would try to interact with the last couple of pages like I'd planned, but it's super late and I've already had to force myself to read and understand all of it. I'll be back in the morning.

General thoughts: Consider my vote on verydark. I won't officially put it there until I know for sure how many votes he has. I also have a considerably weaker scumlean on Sando and slight townlean on GL.

this kind of complex reasoning is difficult to fake by scum

these posts are overflowing with nuance

and not "oh i don't know what i think of anything" nuance

it actually ends up settling on some forceful points

[Mathdino]

if i had to start cutting into my townreads, pops would be the place to start

where i'm at:

Town: {brassheraldslot, Smart, davesaz}
Probtown: {LUV/NSGslot, Kmd, Mylo}

To sort:
GL - probably sortable by how wrong he ends up being
pops - I haven't reevaluated this read since like page 2
Gamma - is being Gamma

Lynchable:
BuJaber - solid arguments, we kinda just need a flip at this point
verydark - would be pretty sad if this lived to endgame and was scum
Kop - my first choice for a policy lurkerlynch since Mylo is clearly town

[Mathdino]

Mathdino, without saying why, does post 51 give you any kind of read?

North, I think I get what pops is saying there but I don't agree that he's applying it correctly. I think it's just gamma looking for a place to vote early in the game.

This was a very pro town thing to say

[Mathdino]

I have read through all of this, and feel thoroughly empty of opinions.

I'm finally back, apologies for being completely absent so far.
[snip]
Pretty much everyone else left no notable impression on me so far.

Hi, lurker coming from out of the shadows!

...And I'm still just as useless as I've been before. I'm sorry, but I just don't know what to say. I think after this game is over I'm going to have to stick to smaller games, because I'm struggling to tell people apart and analysis behaviors or anything.

But. I am going to actually make use of this game, and post at least some actual thoughts or analysis on this game later tonight, and then hopefully I'll have an idea going forward.

To LUV, I would consider replacing if I wouldn't get blacklisted from other games from that. I'll just make sure I don't go in any future big games.

To Kmd, The only people I'd give light scum reads to is BuJaber and dave, both for awkward dialogue.

do you really think scum doubles down on this "i don't know what the fuck i'm doing shtick" for the entirety of his ISO

[Mathdino]

GC is great
this is kinda terrible though given that the slot was more than likely scum

also i'm so fuckin tempted right now to wagon verydark again

[Mathdino]

PoE, mostly

in addition to badvote on myloninja

[Mathdino]

Step 2) Gets called out for broadly throwing shade at a townblock (per GuiltyLion) in Post 246. (Note I don't have an opinion about whether this is actually a townbloc or not because I'm not quite sure who the "meme team" is because I haven't kept track.) There's some back and forth (e.g., BuJaber's Post 257). What gets me though is then BuJaber waits a beat and then revisits his "meme team" post to vote dave (Post 380 and Post 409).

green crayons serious business 2019

[Mathdino]

northsidegal, Kmd, GuiltyLion, davesaz and I are all on the same team called Serious Business for Team Mafia 2018. We signed up together on purpose

I have no idea why NSG flaked out, but I think we're generally in strong agreement that she's played her towngame so far, and thus LUV is locktown.

I personally think davesaz is locktown by meta.

Kmd and GL are good scum players and while they've done a bunch of pro-town things, I'm uncomfortable putting them under "neverlynch". They haven't exactly completely towntold yet (Kmd lightly did early game).

The RVS jokes were all a reference to the fact that TM 2018 allowed an alignment choice mechanic. It was mostly jokes on who on our team would prefer to roll town or scum.

The wagon leading up to 75 was a meme wagon comprised solely of the team that turned into a "who the fuck is this guy and why is he self-voting" wagon.

I'm pretty sure verydark coined us "the meme team" in frustration for our valiant efforts

[Mathdino]

Let's move this game along....a counterwagon isn't going anywhere in 1 day.

VOTE: Bujaber

Seems like this is the consensus anyway.

I disagree with Mathdino that he'll be the NK, it's most likely going to be me, so at least we aren't wasting a lynch on me because I'm town

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

the fuck makes you think you're going to be the nightkill

[Mathdino]

hahahahaha

NGL that's the first time i've ever seen a "meh whatever" lynch flip scum

also that was a godawful kill, i'm practically clear from that alone (pops spewed himself as VT multiple times, i'm not THAT bad at PR hunting)

anyway i have a proposal

[Mathdino]

He was already locked my dude

[Mathdino]

okay here's the deal

1. "Meh" wagons are like never scum unless scum is bussing. On-wagon kill implies off-wagon scum though. If I had to guess at the distribution, I'd say one on and one off. That word is not law.

2. D1 scum lynches ironically tend to lower winrates for a lot of games. Why? Beats me.

We should be suspicious of that Bujaber flip. That should not have happened.

As such, I think we should avoid hunting for associations and instead just look at who's independently scummy/townish on D1, accounting for the possibility of being completely locked by associations.

Town: brassherald, Mylo, davesaz, LUV, Smart
Need sorting: GL, Gamma, verydark, Kmd
VOTE: verydark
let's see where this goes

3. gonna go see if pops had any sheepable reads btw

[Mathdino]

VOTE: Vote: Gamma Emerald

Saying "I have not the liberty of selecting anything about my alignment" instead of saying "I have not the liberty of selecting my alignment" suggests his alignment has two components - a side, and a set of people who share that alignment. A VT would be more likely to naturally construct the latter statement.

Doesn't really rule out a masonslip, but the quality of lynching someone who is mason/scum is significantly better than random lynching, so this is where my vote should go for now.

this post should've been your first indication

actual masons are awful at WIFOM most of the time

if he were a mason, he wouldn't go and show his work by being like WELL I GUESS HE COULD IN THEORY BE A MASON

he would just say that this shit is scum indicative

i'm not going to help scum PR hunt any more but the point is pops would potentially be one of the worst kills if i were scum

not to mention because i wasn't even townreading the slot; that kill massively helps my PoE pool narrow

[Mathdino]

sure

unfortunately some of us are not clear from that

the fact that over half the wagon didn't even seem to be sure why they were on the wagon in the first place (remember us unceremoniously jumping off verydark just because he asked) should've made bujaber insanely suspiciously town by VCA

i just didn't give a fuck because of the prospect of a flip

[Mathdino]

Yeah one of GL and Kmd is probably scum tbh
Still, the reason I said Kmd wouldn't live to endgame as scum is because he's 80% of the time the optimal Mason recruit
He's known on site for being a great neighbour
So unless someone comes up with a guilty on him, Kmd is the wrong lynch today, since I was townreading that slot more than my other 3 nulls

We very well might have to lynch verydark anyway tbh

[Mathdino]

Yo if GL didn't have a 25% chance of being scum himself then I'd absolutely sheep a 50% confident read

I just hate to lynch Kmd for being wrong when he easily could've not put himself in that position as scum

[Mathdino]

Brass, can you be more specific on what exactly verydark is doing here that he did as town? Have you also seen his scum game?

___________

Ugh. 590 may actually be swaying me here...

It's a blatant AtE post. It doesn't have true value.

Verydark is Verymuch at the tooscummytobescum VI-dash-scum threshhold, where you kind of can't do much. It's critical mass state where new data can't really change your read. You always feel bad because they're not slamdunkscum. There's a real nonzero number of players that just outright have play that ugly as town, virtually all of them early in career. But there's an even larger number of players that openly beg not to be lynched and refuse to do work and chug all the wine right in front of them until they're wasted the very first time they draw scum.

At this point I think you just lynch him at whatever point no slamdunk scum is available and/or wait for associations to clear him -not- his AtE. Fortunately, or unfortunately, glass half full or half empty, BuJaber's play has been pretty crimson so he meets the former criteria.

It would imply verydarks push on pops was retaliatory
Plus counterwagons to scum are town

[Mathdino]

BuJaber was a counterwagon to verydark, doesn't count

[Mathdino]

Pops potentially conftowned himself from a scumdarks pov because verydark was counterwagoning BuJaber

Also can someone take a look at verydarks excuses for not helping lynch scum until literally the end
Because that shit is problematic

[Mathdino]

@Agent - my vote was semi-serious RVS vote. It doesn't need an explantion. It sounded scummy and "reachy" to me but honestly I didn't understand it fully at the time. Hence the question.

Pops' subsequent posts give a much better impression. Particularly post 139 which gave me a very townie vibe.

I hate verydark's reactions. I hate his self vote. While I agree that it does come from both alignments the timing of the self-vote is just as important as the vote itself. There really is very little motivation for town to put themselves at L-1. Frustrated town who give up self-hammer. Frustrated town who want to make a point self-vote earlier. Self-voting so close to a wagon is terrible.
VOTE: verydark

you mean like here

[Mathdino]

I forgot he existed (was he not in the end of day vote count?)

I now kinda wanna lynch him so thanks for reminding me

[Mathdino]

Gamma and Kmd are both townier than he is
Plus lurksack scum jives pretty well with the trajectory of yesterday gamestate

Do I need a better reason xD
Kopscum isn't exactly forthcoming with readable content

[Mathdino]

Plus lurksack scum jives pretty well with the trajectory of yesterday gamestate

Didn't you just get done saying that that lynch shouldn't have happened, which would imply that it happened because of heavy scum involvement?

It shouldn't have happened assuming active scum and inactive town without bussing.

However, if scum is inactive, then yeah its perfectly reasonable they don't have the political capital to drive away the lynch

Verydark also works as scum under the narrative of initial resistance turned towncred grabbing hammer

[Mathdino]

meh fine

VOTE: Green Crayons

[Mathdino]

yep

complete overview of his game history shows absolutely 0 bussing

except when he was guiltied and his partner voted him (which is kind of obvious since he claimed scum that day)

i see no reason to think he'd suddenly change his mind there

[Mathdino]

Sando =/= pops
Townlean for sando, probably closer to solid townread for SS

GL

, Agent - town

Gamma

- townlean

LUV,

KMD

,

Kop

- null

Dino, Mylon - scumlean
Dave - scum (But if one of those 3 flips scum the other 2 would look better because I don't think it's likely more than 1 scum is hiding within the meme bloc)

Verydark

- scum

my lynchpool in bold

i highly doubt bujaber goes into this hardtownreading his scumbuddy and hardbussing the other

dave is spewed town by bujaber's ISO. if anyone doubts me on the dave read, go ctrl+F bujaber for "dave"

"i don't know what to do with so many townreads" is an indication that most of his townreads are actually just correct. therefore we should be lynching between {Gamma, Kmd, Green Crayons} (near the middle).

just repeating that if anyone has a guilty now might be a good time to claim it

[Mathdino]

my lynchpool is something like {KMD, verydark, Mylo, GC}. If the townies in that group could start towntelling that'd be good

{Math, Gamma, Smart} is the hard townbloc.

explain why i'm wrong about townreading myloninja

and explain why gamma is town

i could maybe sheep that assuming the scumteam is not literally GL/Gamma

[Mathdino]

okay cool so

my current narrative:

Assuming verydark is town, inactive scumteam was unable to stop the slow creep toward the Bujaber lynch. Scumteam didn't ALL bus because they definitely had the manpower to get away with a verydark lynch easily.

Onwagon kill implies offwagon scum. Scum clearly thought pops was townish due to the Bujaber push for some reason. They're threatened by the wagon.

verydark hammer technically counts as offwagon for my VCA.

So I think we'll basically be good if we just lynch everyone offwagon until we hit scum. We're basically guaranteed to hit 1 scum given all the hilariously townish players that parked the Buj wagon.

My order:
GC --> Kmd --> verydark
Smart and dave are obviously exempt. Associations and play hardclear them.
I don't think LUV kills his scumread, so also exempt.

[Mathdino]

i'm a complex guy

[Mathdino]

It's pretty lol

[Mathdino]

the site went down yesterday for maintenance and to shut down the marathon forum

have you been having issues today?

seems to be a common issue regardless

FWIW i'm not voting you for anything you have or haven't posted

[Mathdino]

1. I did not. Sando's replace-out nullifies my need to. He's town.

2. I'd been waffling on verydark in my mind (and my heart wanted to policy his ass). He requested space, and I trust GL's reads in general, so I swapped to Bujaber, my second highest scumread.

Re: NSG: I've played in shittons of games with her. It's hard to describe my metaread there.

I also have a spreadsheet documenting her meta trends in her town vs scumgames. I can run her posts through that and let you know what it comes up with if you like.

[Mathdino]

@Kmd:

1.

How often do you see people referring to you as, simply, "Md"?

2.

What are your thoughts on dave?

MD is Mathdino

[Mathdino]

I also have a spreadsheet documenting her meta trends in her town vs scumgames. I can run her posts through that and let you know what it comes up with if you like.

Please do.

fuck the spreadsheet says she's scum or a PR

i'll get back to you on this one; flaking out is definitely super problematic for NSG's alignment

the last time i incorrectly scumread her she was in fact a PR so at the very least i can tell you in the scenario of Mathdino-scum NSG-town i would've just shot her on that read alone (also so i wouldn't have to townread her all game)

i just completed a game serving as an extension to the rule that i've never not shot a PR when given the opportunity to as scum

2. I'd been waffling on verydark in my mind (and my heart wanted to policy his ass). He requested space, and I trust GL's reads in general, so I swapped to Bujaber,

my second highest scumread

.

Where did that read come from, when you made that vote?

tbh i don't think i could tell you

the best i got from reading through my ISO is that he'd done nothing to make me think he was town

i'm pretty into PoE. everyone else in my D1 lynchpool had done townier things so my general goal is to not vote town and pray for the best

i didn't really expect him to flip scum but i figured it was a decent lynch nonetheless especially with him going inactive up to the deadline

[Mathdino]

i will concede that there's nothing particularly townish about LUV's ISO

checking bujaber's in a second

[Mathdino]

LUV - I remembered him having more questions. A lot of his good posts aren't questions. More accurate to call them investigative. He is questioning logic and statements others have made to a point where it reads like an interrogation. He's wrong about sando imo but this kind of questionong and dragging out an argument to force the other player to explain more clearly leads to better reads for everyone in the game. Typically anyway. And while there elements of playstyle here (not everyone plays like that) I feel like scum!gamma would have to stop sooner in fear of locktowning his 'target' for everyone else or exposing his partner if he's distancing for show.

oh god

[Mathdino]

This is the reason you're townreading me so heavily?

sorry did you want me to actually try to read your posts

[Mathdino]

as much effort as i put into games i try not to do way more effort than it seems like i have to

i just skimmed your ISO and it doesn't really seem inconsistent with what i know of town-you so yeah i'm sticking to my locktownread

NSG i'm unfortunately going to have to put more effort in. she dropped a meta towntell at some point but if my spreadsheet is NAI that might also be NAI. i really just feel like her ISO is town :/

Edit: you're free to park a vote on me until i get nightkilled then

[Mathdino]

we can also wait a few weeks to a month and i'll explain the entirety of that read if i'm still alive since i'm like 90% sure based on your reaction that you have no idea what i'm talking about

if you're worried about me just nightkilling you or something then you can make people promise to make me explain it

[Mathdino]

if you're worried about me just nightkilling you or something then you can make people promise to make me explain it

I'm sure this was meant as hyperbole, but at first glance it read as a scum slip, lmao.

he's worried i'm scum

if i say "oh don't worry i'll explain it in a few weeks"

the natural thought is gonna be "well okay what if Mathdino just NKs me and i don't get the chance to force him to explain"

so i'm trying to ease that by saying literally anyone else can force me to explain it too

do you have any gamestate-relevant thoughts rn? you're not placing a vote

[Mathdino]

i'm not outing my turn-of-phrase tells sorry

but sure here are some posts

i'm not actually convinced that there's a better place for my vote right now, honestly. verydark – since self-voting you have done almost no scumhunting at all, and the "please hammer me" reads as either an attempt at AtE or scum upset at getting wagoned for seemingly nothing. you're also playing fairly differently than to your last town game that just finished recently.

why did you self-vote? did you not realize that your wagon wasn't really a lynch wagon in the first place?

NSG generally believes that "policy lynches are scum garbage". I don't believe she sticks to her guns on the verydark wagon here as scum. Hell, I think she's more policythirsty as town without really knowing it.

She also seems to have done some unnecessary work behind the scenes that she's not even really using for towncred.

snip

if you're not disagreeing with the reasons for verydark being scum this rings pretty hollow. if you think there are good reasons for the verydark wagon, what's scummy about agreeing with them? if you don't think so, why not?

(chainsaw, anyone?)

snip

In what way? i think town is very decently more likely to make a post like that than scum – scum are forced to come up with false pushes eventually anyways, so i'd think scum would just start out by doing so and either come up with a false push or follow a push already happening. outside of a deliberate play for getting towncred, there's not a lot of benefit as scum to saying that you don't really have reads.

what about that is "forced"?

This is a supertownNSG type of post. It's not agenda driven; defending the total lurker Mylo while going after the other lurker Kop doesn't really benefit scum here.

[Mathdino]

I'm uncomfortable with this explanation in light of your Post 161, listing GL, Sando, or Bujaber as POE scumbuddies, but then shouting down Sando in Post 348 for having the audacity to think your 161 was suggesting you'd be happy with a Sando lynch. By implication, you weren't advocating for either of the other two POE scumbuddies' lynches either.

GL and Sando are riskier to mislynch; I wouldn't really have been upset about mislynching Bujaber, especially with his activity levels.

You're doing fine picking apart my progression-as-written, but there's a lot unsaid. I hold town-GL in high regard (along with scum-GL tbh) and thought that the points made against Bujaber were good ones. I didn't have much more to say on Buj that hadn't already been said, and being like "HMMM, I'M STARTING TO FEEL SWAYED ON BUJABER-SCUM" is just unnecessary posturing that I don't do anymore.

Also, keep in mind that GL/Sando are specifically PoE scumbuddies with verydark, not general PoE scum.

So: I agreed with your Post 348 stating that your 161's POE scumbuddy list (GL, Sando, BuJaber) was not advocating a lynch out of the POE trio. But then in 360 you switch to a vote out of the POE trio to give verydark some breathing room. And your vote just happens to land on a scum who had only mild pressure (GL vote). And then your vote just sort of lingered on BuJaber, sort of like a buddy who didn't know when to unvote.

Yep. I got lucky (go sheeping?). I expected more D2 blowback from lazily voting a Bujaber-townflip than I expected to get towncred from a Bujaber-scumflip.

You know me. I'm a prolific player and I can drive lynches. I drove the verydark wagon in the first place while Kmd wasn't here by pointing out those inconsistencies.

Why do I softer-than-feathers-bus Bujaber instead of just staying put on verydark?
Why not switch back to verydark upon realising that he wasn't going to follow through on providing content? (something I pointed out many times)
Why not just drive a wagon on anyone else that I have a meta for not being able to read? (Gamma)
Or just try to policy lynch someone? (also within my meta)

I don't believe in unnecessary bussing. I'll do it when I'm backed into a corner, but if I'm gonna be an early vote on a scumbuddy, I obviously need more spectacle to get any towncred. Feel free to check my ISO in RC's Anything uPick for me almost-bussing Creature and soft-bussing Torn Up (who kinda started bussing me first tbh).

Basically I'm paranoid that you're scum with two relatively inactive buddies.

Happy to policy lynch relatively-inactives tbh.

[Mathdino]

I'll elaborate.

The more I look at this the more I feel like it's scum blatantly masonhunting hoping for refuge in audacity
VOTE: popsocftown

masonhunting in what way? why would he make that public in the main thread rather than just keep it to himself / share it in the scum pt?

NSG hardtownslipped here in not realising that daytalk doesn't exist in this setup. She unfortunately also VT-slipped, which scum almost definitely picked up on at this point, so I don't mind just saying so.

The fact that my spreadsheet says she's scum or PR (wrong) probably just means her unconscious meta is shifting, which is whatever. She's still lock-town.

But yeah I forgot about the slip, thanks for reminding me.

NSG back to locktown.

[Mathdino]

Something smart, I have you as a strong town read for the same reason as Mathdino. Does that make the scum team me/math?

No, because I'm assuming you're still reading my posts.

i see my "say things as hyperbolically as possible for comedic effect" strategy wasn't working

of course i'm reading your posts, i'm just not reading

into

them critically to determine your alignment

i'm basically treating you as a 95% innocent child. if i picked up on something glaring, that'd change, but i basically don't see you posting anything to change that today

[Mathdino]

Green Crayons, I've used this name on multiple sites over the course of about 18 years and I don't recall ever being referred to as "md", although someone has been calling me just "k" lately which is new.

Yeah. It doesn't make sense to me for anyone to refer to you as Md either. Which is why this interaction caught my eye:

Spoiler:

TRing MD but not for the mason warning. For the prediction in the first post. I've seen day 1 predictions. I've seen page 1 predictions. This is my first post 1 prediction. He's thinking about bragging rights before ANYTHING else. Townie.

Or scum being very very very 'calculating'?

*leaves the building before the boos*

Don't town read me for that. I'd do it as scum too.

Noted

MD is mathdino ftr.. I should probably say dino in this game to avoid confusion.

It looks like you were overly conscious of what BuJaber was posting to the point of thinking he was referring to you. In response, he went along with it, but then realized he hadn't actually referred to you and corrected himself. It's just weird.

ohhhh i didn't know what that was about ok

yeah i could probably lynch KMD for that now that i think about it

[Mathdino]

Green Crayons, I've used this name on multiple sites over the course of about 18 years and I don't recall ever being referred to as "md", although someone has been calling me just "k" lately which is new.

Yeah. It doesn't make sense to me for anyone to refer to you as Md either. Which is why this interaction caught my eye:

Spoiler:

TRing MD but not for the mason warning. For the prediction in the first post. I've seen day 1 predictions. I've seen page 1 predictions. This is my first post 1 prediction. He's thinking about bragging rights before ANYTHING else. Townie.

Or scum being very very very 'calculating'?

*leaves the building before the boos*

Don't town read me for that. I'd do it as scum too.

Noted

MD is mathdino ftr.. I should probably say dino in this game to avoid confusion.

It looks like you were overly conscious of what BuJaber was posting to the point of thinking he was referring to you. In response, he went along with it, but then realized he hadn't actually referred to you and corrected himself. It's just weird.

ohhhh i didn't know what that was about ok

yeah i could probably lynch KMD for that now that i think about it

Why would I be overly concerned about a scum buddy's read on me?

i didn't read concern at all?

it's just weirdposting really

combined with GC being probably town for even pointing that out, you're also just next on my lynch order

sorry if you were just wrong town

but also the mylo vote doesn't make sense outside of policy IMO. there's literally nothing scum indicative in that ISO

[Mathdino]

okay fuck it

mylo, we're lynching Kmd, put your vote there unless you have any better ideas

if you don't like that idea, i hope you have good reasons why

dave, i (presumably, if i'm talking to you-as-town) got my meta townread on you correct

i'm better at meta-townreading players than meta-scumreading them

what would it take for you to trust my read on mylo? (in that vein, i'm double checking his meta to make sure i'm not talking out of my ass)

also i need reads on GC from people thanks

[Mathdino]

there are some votes that the mod didn't catch in the votecounts, i'm pulling those

Spoiler: VoteCount Settings

priorVCNumber=0
url=viewtopic.php?f=23&t=75418
playerList=Agent Sparkles,BuJaber,davesaz,Gamma Emerald,Kop,GuiltyLion,Kmd4390,northsidegal{NSG},Mathdino,Myloninja13,Sando,popsofctown,verydark
replacementList=Agent Sparkles:brassherald,northsidegal:Lil Uzi Vert,Sando:Something_Smart
moderatorNames=Aster
dayStartNumbers=0,723
cleanDay=true
deadline=2018-04-14 17:15:00
deadList=popsofctown-1
voteOverrides=

Code: Select all

[spoiler=Day 1][/spoiler]

[Mathdino]

i goofed

Spoiler: VoteCount Settings

priorVCNumber=0
url=viewtopic.php?f=51&t=75460
playerList=Agent Sparkles,BuJaber,davesaz,Gamma Emerald,Kop,GuiltyLion,Kmd4390,northsidegal{NSG},Mathdino,Myloninja13,Sando,popsofctown,verydark
replacementList=Agent Sparkles:brassherald,northsidegal:Lil Uzi Vert,Sando:Something_Smart
moderatorNames=Aster
dayStartNumbers=0,723
cleanDay=true
deadline=2018-04-14 17:15:00
deadList=popsofctown-1
voteOverrides=

Code: Select all

[spoiler=Day 1][/spoiler]

[Mathdino]

WAGONS(Sort By: Alphabetical Data Type: Simple LSort: On)

Note from vote counter. These votes include any vote on or off that impacted said wagon.

Spoiler: Day 1

brassherald (1)

~ verydark 6

brassherald (1)

~ Mathdino 75(89)

brassherald (1)

~ Something_Smart 618

BuJaber (1)

~ davesaz 11

BuJaber (1)

~ GuiltyLion 177

davesaz (1)

~ popsofctown 12

davesaz (1)

~ davesaz 47

davesaz (1)

~ BuJaber 409

davesaz (1)

~ Myloninja13 689

Gamma Emerald (1)

~ brassherald 5

Gamma Emerald (1)

~ popsofctown 18

Gamma Emerald (1)

~ Something_Smart 193(228)

Gamma Emerald (1)

~ verydark 300

GuiltyLion (1)

~ Lil Uzi Vert 8

GuiltyLion (1)

~ Something_Smart 73

Kmd4390 (1)

~ Mathdino 4

Kop (1)

~ Something_Smart 230

Mathdino (1)

~ Something_Smart 10

Mathdino (1)

~ brassherald 16(73)

Mathdino (1)

~ verydark 101(172)

Myloninja13 (1)

~ Kop 253

Myloninja13 (1)

~ davesaz 266(577)

popsofctown (1)

~ BuJaber 30

popsofctown (1)

~ Lil Uzi Vert 499

Something_Smart (1)

~ Gamma Emerald 7

Something_Smart (1)

~ popsofctown 228

verydark (1)

~ Kmd4390 22

brassherald (2)

~ verydark, Mathdino 75

BuJaber (2)

~ GuiltyLion, Mathdino 360

Gamma Emerald (2)

~ popsofctown, Something_Smart 193

Gamma Emerald (2)

~ verydark, Something_Smart 364

Mathdino (2)

~ Something_Smart, brassherald 16

Mathdino (2)

~ brassherald, verydark 89

Mathdino (2)

~ brassherald, GuiltyLion 97

Mathdino (2)

~ GuiltyLion, verydark 101(168)

Myloninja13 (2)

~ Kop, davesaz 266

popsofctown (2)

~ BuJaber, Gamma Emerald 35

popsofctown (2)

~ Lil Uzi Vert, verydark 675

Something_Smart (2)

~ popsofctown, Gamma Emerald 359

verydark (2)

~ Kmd4390, GuiltyLion 40

verydark (2)

~ Kmd4390, Lil Uzi Vert 54(101)

verydark (2)

~ Kmd4390, BuJaber 479(569)

BuJaber (3)

~ GuiltyLion, Mathdino, popsofctown 415

Mathdino (3)

~ brassherald, GuiltyLion, verydark 101

verydark (3)

~ Kmd4390, GuiltyLion, Mathdino 41

verydark (3)

~ Kmd4390, GuiltyLion, Lil Uzi Vert 54(75)

verydark (3)

~ Kmd4390, Lil Uzi Vert, verydark 96(97)

verydark (3)

~ Kmd4390, Lil Uzi Vert, Gamma Emerald 131

verydark (3)

~ Kmd4390, Lil Uzi Vert, brassherald 233(409)

verydark (3)

~ Kmd4390, brassherald, BuJaber 479(499)

BuJaber (4)

~ GuiltyLion, Mathdino, popsofctown, Gamma Emerald 422

verydark (4)

~ Kmd4390, GuiltyLion, Mathdino, Lil Uzi Vert 54

verydark (4)

~ Kmd4390, GuiltyLion, Lil Uzi Vert, verydark 96

verydark (4)

~ Kmd4390, Lil Uzi Vert, Gamma Emerald, BuJaber 171

verydark (4)

~ Kmd4390, Lil Uzi Vert, BuJaber, brassherald 233(360)

BuJaber (5)

~ GuiltyLion, Mathdino, popsofctown, Gamma Emerald, brassherald 569

verydark (5)

~ Kmd4390, Lil Uzi Vert, Gamma Emerald, BuJaber, Mathdino 198

verydark (5)

~ Kmd4390, Lil Uzi Vert, Gamma Emerald, BuJaber, brassherald 233

verydark (5)

~ Kmd4390, Lil Uzi Vert, BuJaber, brassherald, Mathdino 319(359)

BuJaber (6)

~ GuiltyLion, Mathdino, popsofctown, Gamma Emerald, brassherald, Myloninja13 693

verydark (6)

~ Kmd4390, Lil Uzi Vert, Gamma Emerald, BuJaber, brassherald, Mathdino 319

BuJaber (7)

~ GuiltyLion, Mathdino, popsofctown, Gamma Emerald, brassherald, Myloninja13, verydark 714

Spoiler: Day 2

GuiltyLion (1)

~ verydark 785

Kmd4390 (1)

~ GuiltyLion 734

Myloninja13 (1)

~ Kmd4390 863

verydark (1)

~ Mathdino 730

Kmd4390 (2)

~ GuiltyLion, Gamma Emerald 740

verydark (2)

~ Mathdino, Gamma Emerald 771

Removed modcolor usage.

[Mathdino]

Upon quick review, your Newbie Game ICs were Mulch, UC Voyager, and wilky.

Suddenly, this explains so damn much.

You have much to learn, young padawan.

[Mathdino]

i goofed again actually

Spoiler: VoteCount Settings

priorVCNumber=0
url=viewtopic.php?f=51&t=75460
playerList=Agent Sparkles,BuJaber,davesaz,Gamma Emerald,Kop,GuiltyLion,Kmd4390,northsidegal{NSG},Mathdino,Myloninja13,Sando,popsofctown,verydark
replacementList=Agent Sparkles:brassherald,northsidegal:Lil Uzi Vert,Sando:Something_Smart,Kop:Green Crayons
moderatorNames=Aster
dayStartNumbers=0,723
cleanDay=true
deadline=2018-04-14 17:15:00
deadList=popsofctown-1
voteOverrides=

Code: Select all

[spoiler=Day 1][/spoiler]

[/quote]

doesn't change anything about D1 though

BuJaber wagon: GuiltyLion, Mathdino, pops, Gamma, brass, Mylo, verydark
verydark wagon: Kmd, LUV, Gamma, BuJaber, brass, Mathdino
Offwagons: davesaz, GC, Smart

Scumwagon: Assume GL didn't just hardbus here. pops flips town; onwagon kill implies town motivated wagon. Gamma and brass seem to be the only viable bus votes. Agent's vote was kind of lackluster.
darkwagon: Kmd is the obvious candidate for counterwagoning scum. LUV is locktown. The others (Gamma and brass) were on the scumwagon and jumped off.
Offwagons: davesaz is still town, Smart is still town, GC is very viably town.

Optimal play if we're going by votes (and taking into account locktownies) is something like:
Kmd --> Gamma --> brass --> verydark --> GC --> GL --> davesaz

Obviously removing anyone who's a mason in this order. We get a maximum of 3 mislynches in this setup. So unless the scumteam is literally people at the ass end of this order, I think this is a winning strategy.

[Mathdino]

On second thought

mylo you're posting in other games, and going through your meta, you have actually fairly substantial ISOs in your newbie games

so what is it about this game that's the problem

i'm not letting you ride the "i'm a newbie" and the "i made a townish L-1 vote" thing forever

[Mathdino]

What's it gonna take to get you talking before the players who can reliably read you are all killed?

[Mathdino]

Math, what happened to Kmd being the likely mason recruit?

I mean I was trying to hypoclaim a mason recruit on him but does it look like anyone is actually masons with him?

I'm fine with being a claimed VT. Scum have a tradeoff between killing conftown or letting me drive lynches til endgame.

Thoughts on VCA/lynch order?

[Mathdino]

VCA on a day one scumlynch is a huge red flag.

no it's not

talk to me about the flaws in my assumptions

you know i can do good VCA on D1 scum lynches my dude

[Mathdino]

talk to me about the flaws in my assumptions

They are both assumptions that scum could know townies would make. (Especially you if you're town.) I can easily see a GL hardbus especially since BuJaber knew his commitment to the game was about to go way down. And I can also see bussing scum killing onwagon to create that exact effect.

The onwagon/offwagon rule is really mainly something that GL and KMD would know I'd dig into tbh. I don't see anyone else fucking with me in that way. Maybe Gamma. Very maybe Gamma.

Still, GL is in the lynch order. Where would you put him?

I mean you get nightkilled as soon as you start talking so like that tells me you do something to be uber-towny when you post, maybe learn to harness that?

More often it's a lynch that gets me lol, a NK only happened once and that was because I called out the scum team day 2 and got one of them lynched the next day.

yeah do this thanks

[Mathdino]

hope things go okay, LUV

fucking lol if NSG takes her slot back, i unironically want that to happen

hey GC hit me up with some spicy thoughts on that lynch order

[Mathdino]

it sounds like we're at a MAJOR impasse tbh

Kmd - ok

Gamma - I'm unconvinced on your unconvincedness. I don't see much TOWNISH about him.

brass - That's fair.

verydark - Yeah that's basically the idea. verydark living to LyLo is just not a good idea.

GL - He's good at scum...? D1 early hardbussing is super viable nowadays.

Like I'm getting the sense now that your lynchpool is literally my neverlynchpool:

NSG - I can't budge on this anymore. This was outside her scumrange, fullstop.

davesaz - Strong meta-based townread, although I guess I can do a onceover and check? Obviously a lot of his posts are bad but that's literally why he's lynchbait in a bunch of games.

Smart - Already discussed this.

Mylo - I'm not seeing anything scum indicative knowing his meta. I don't think scum plays this way tbh.

[Mathdino]

Looks like I hated Gamma's vote progression (still do), saw a bunch of posts that scum wouldn't make (fuck me now I gotta go find those), and then dropped him in the "what the fuck do I know about this player" pile.

I don't think I argued anything about his early townplay but correct me if I'm wrong.

Explain, re: dave. Because I had that exact read on him before and it got to the point where he was the most hilariously obvious partner to flipped scum, AND was paranoid of me for no reason, AND was calling me out while not really helping lynch scum... and then he flipped town.

[Mathdino]

Recent posts by Green Crayon are pretty okay. Also, Math, in regards to your list of lynches, I really dislike lining up all the lynches beforehand in any order. We need to be able to adjust to new information. I will not be following some preset list of lynches for you.

I'm also a bit curious as to why Mylo came in, said he talks more day 2 and says nothing else other than go with the idea that never gets him hanged. My vote looks good there while I drink my coffee this morning.

VOTE: Mylo

what new information do you see yourself needing to adjust to

scum's entire job is to, over the course of the game, dismantle correct townreads and push incorrect scumreads

they get better at this the longer the game goes on, as scum density increases and as they figure out what the playerlist scumhunts/townhunts based on

the lynch order is primarily shit if i'm scum
but my alignment probably gets sorted by the nightkill anyway

That's a lot of buddy-buddy banter with Bujaber, and a LOT of questioning and challenging people's votes on him. Then after the lynch, it's a pretty obvious switch to damage control and being more loose and conversational.

It's such a damning revelation for me that I'm torn between it being too obvious, or just obvious enough.

why in the fresh hell are you not placing a vote then

[Mathdino]

but my alignment probably gets sorted by the nightkill anyway

Stop saying this shit

no

stop not voting

[Mathdino]

Most interactions people think are TvS are TvT

[Mathdino]

Like if any of those posts to BuJaber were scum coaching, why wouldn't it be in the scum PT? And why attack everyone else's votes on him if he was a buddy clearly going g down? That would be much worse scum play than I'm capable of. I just had a bad read which happens plenty.

Because scum don't have daytalk?

You know this, you townlocked NSG for it...

[Mathdino]

i feel like aster is purposefully trying to emphasise that i'm arguing for kmd's lynch while not being on his wagon lol

=====[]

[]=====

[Mathdino]

i never even voted kmd lol

i honestly forgot to

but now if we do end up lynching there i'm saving the hammer

(i'm joking that aster keeps posting VCs after i try to strongarm people into voting Kmd)

[Mathdino]

Mathdino please explain your current vote.

it's meaningless, i just wanted to be the deciding vote on Kmd later

VOTE: Myloninja

voting here in protest of utter lack of content

on kmd in spirit though

[Mathdino]

Going back and looking into it. Did anyone else have any thoughts on why he was NK'd?

stop your NKA

i read pops's ISO, it was literally just tunneling bujaber

there were 2 reasons he was NK'd

1. He was cleared town (or someone on the scumteam thought he was cleared town) by Bujaber's flip.

2. He literally said "I'm scumreading Gamma, and I recognise that what he said could mean he's a mason, but I think there's a low risk of outing a mason".

Scum was shit and thought that the reason that he was "okay with outing masons" is because he was, himself, a mason, and knew that Gamma wasn't a mason already.

That is why he was NK'd. Scum tried to take a risk and utterly failed. They succeeded in killing someone not in the lynchpool (apparently more people were townreading pops than I thought?), so that's that.

And the kill doesn't actually point to anyone.

[Mathdino]

dave you do understand that posts like that are exactly what gets you mislynched all the time

[Mathdino]

Sando (Something_Smart): Light Scumread.

this read is incorrect but your reads are otherwise accurate

something_smart is something of a lynchbaity player as town

[Mathdino]

Math

I have never seen scum coach their partner in-thread.

Does that actually happen?

honestly i've been holding off on answering this because

1. fairly sure it does happen. coaching is usually more subconscious though. i caught a scumteam based on constant coaching associatives before the newbie setup had daytalk

2. but to fairly answer this, i'd have to actually dive into Kmd's scum meta, the prospect of which makes me want to die

i'll do it eventually and definitely before we get close to ending the day

[Mathdino]

i will fully admit that if i find that kmd-scum has never treated his partners like he's treated bujaber, i'll back the fuck off

obviously i'm incentivised to cherrypick but yeah i'll check when i can

[Mathdino]

I think the word you're looking for is "policy"

he gets a pass since he loves policy lynching

Ftfy

I should review Dave's iso soon

[Mathdino]

idk believe it or not i'm townreading him

[Mathdino]

so who's up for lynching gamma instead?

[Mathdino]

oh no sorry that question has nothing to do with your recent behaviour

i didn't mean to imply that

[Mathdino]

cuz mylo is town and i'm really not sure who to fucking lynch if kmd comes up town from metadive

[Mathdino]

yeah i guess i could lynch davesaz through meta

i'm still working on my metareading tbh

i'm not sure how successful it is compared to just PoE towntelling and i'm pretty sure my reads have gone down a bit but you gotta try different things

i'll ISO dave after i metadive Kmd

[Mathdino]

i mean there's a fair argument that whoever is scum is just awful at high level strategy

allowing bujaber to die D1 combined with the shit-tier nightkill

[Mathdino]

dude my buddy GL and i made bad nightkills fucking lol

team mafia is not indicative of skill

[Mathdino]

tbh i completely thought that inventions mafia was all vanilla due to how much alignment choice was swinging all 5 games in favour of town at the time

so i was not PR hunting in that game at all

but yeah i generally agree

[Mathdino]

WHAT THE FUCK DID YOU GUYS DO WHILE I WAS GONE JESUS FUCK GUYS

[Mathdino]

WHAT THE FUCK DID I TELL YOU RE: DAVESAZ BEING OBVTOWN

also terrible recruit guys that read was a lock

[Mathdino]

okay NGL if we don't get scum today we're almost certainly fucked

mylo is never getting nightkilled now because spewed not-mason

dave don't post reads ever thanks

[Mathdino]

dave don't post reads ever thanks

sorry i don't mean to be vitriolic

i should probably also not be posting reads

- i'm basically gonna figure out who the masons are today sorrynotsorry

- if we don't get scum today, the mafia are probably gonna figure out who the masons are if they're not terrible (and if you guys failed to WIFOM your roles properly like i did whoops)

- so with an 8p lynchpool assuming mafia kill a mason every night our odds aren't like amazing since we get 3 mislynches total

that said if we can lock 3 non-masons as town this game is essentially solved

mylo is probably the mechanically optimal lynch if we want to just pray mafia hits a VT but i gotta check up on that one