ooba wrote:I do not totally agree with giving Mizzy a free pass just cause of Mafiaplayer's Townsperson confirmation way back in the first few pages , so wanted to know what she felt.
You could have just
asked
me, you know.
Warning, you are about to be textwalled.
I really don't like his vote of yours, ooba, and I don't like that you have given so little content before voting, just utilizing your predecessor's words as given without adding anything to them. I may not have done such a good job so far, but at least I haven't put anyone at -1L while using someone else's post as justification. Let me go through the points of that post and say why I don't like the case:
XReyoX wrote:He voted himself, twice. The first one, I take it as a joke vote, regardless of whether he has rolled his dice or not. He might have lie, which I believe so, but that is not the point. His self-vote at the beginning shows nothing. His second vote #200 is an appeal to pity. Non-productive. Not a major scumtell but I can see that as something that is only-beneficial to the scums.
Firstly, I hate all the talk about "lying about a dice roll." Who cares? Townies lie all the time, just as much as scum do. I think the question as to whether or not he did roll the dice is a mechanism for an opportunistic wagon.
Secondly, his second self-vote I don't feel is an appeal to pity but a sarcastic gesture meant to point out the foolishness in XReyoX's worrying about whether or not he ACTUALLY rolled the dice.
Self-voting is NOT just something that benefits scum, but can serve as a sarcastic and sometimes drastic means of daring others to vote for them too, which townies are shown to do when under pressure sometimes. It's a null-tell, at best.
XReyoX wrote:This is the only view on other people amongst all his posts. He is even wishy washying his FoS. I feel that it can be flipped both ways depending on how it goes.
I think we can all agree, at this point, that Sammich was not the best player in the game. I can understand wanting him to give more scumhunting content, but the lack of scumhunting is not always a scumtell.
XReyoX wrote:Firstly, he couldn’t have been called a townie in his role pm. Secondly, it wasn’t the right time. Thridly, he hasn’t got a right reason to do so, imo. He can believe Mafiaplayer is a townie for many other reasons, but “because he is a townie too” seems weird. And claiming at that point can only cause damage to the town. Saying he has deleted his PM, thus not getting the rolename right, seems very convenient as ripley has pointed out, plus he can remember when he did it as well.
Firstly, the use of semantics-bending here bothers me. Okay, so, Sammich said he got called a townie. So? He wasn't a total noob, so one
could
assume that he understood that the role "Townsperson" = townie. I don't see how his lack of calling it "Townsperson" helps the case against him.
As for right time, I can kind of see that argument, I suppose, except it doesn't really help or hurt the case against him one way or the other, as I see it. People post late all time time, whether from having missed posts or having been sidetracked, or whatever. Timing in these games is seldom everything.
As for the stupid, bullshit claims going on, I agree. They don't help town, and in fact, they HURT town, because it narrows down NK choices for the scum. I don't, however, see how claiming makes anyone scummy. We all hint, at the very least, at our alignment, and while if I had been here, I'd have jumped down his throat for claiming at all, I'd have done it as a teaching tool, not as an accusatory statement.
I don't delete my role PMs until the games are over, so I can't speak on that, but I know a LOT of people delete their role PMs. Okay, so it was "convenient" but still...it's an unprovable, circumstantial case-point at best.
XReyoX wrote:It wasn’t impossible, but is very highly unlikely. The list is disjointed. He remembered what he has rolled, who was on which dice, which side the coin came up with. Every single step, every single detail was described, like a cam recorder was there. Provided that it was 11 days after the event, I think it is unlikely. I believe he is using misleading vividness to convince us that he rolled the dice as I’ve pointed out before. While on the same posts with his diceroll, he said “Believe this story or not, there's not enough proof I rigged it.”, he is using both burden of proof and negative proof in the same sentence to persuade us. The next, he said “Anybody can simply go offline and fabricate a story like this but who would really vote for themselves anyway?”. To me, he is using appeal to ridicule to further reinforce his case.
#203“If its a joke vote, admit that it's a joke vote. Don't try do make something up later on in the game so that you seem innocent…” I asked. “Fine it was a joke vote.” Sammich answered. This post, to me, looks like he has given up his story and admitted that he was making things up. If he, indeed, rolled the dice, it is more natural for him to stand by his story and said it was a dicevote. Imat think that this post is a joke itself. I’ll discuss below.
Oh for heaven's sake, not THIS again. So what if he maybe (unprovably) lied about a friggin dice roll? The fact that this keeps coming up makes me want to chew nails. It's an EXCUSE to put suspicion on someone. Use evidence that can be proven to make your cases, folks, not some bullshit assumptions and anal nit-picking. My random votes in the random stage aren't purely random; of course not. But as for having all the tools around and ready for a random IRL roll? I have a bowl of dice on my desk and a stack of assorted coins. I also have several versions of the list of players at my handy one-click disposal in the form of vote counts, player listings, etc. So yes, it is possible he could have done it randomly, but even if he didn't, who cares?
XReyoX wrote:There is no doubt Sammich was evading questions, not only mine, but many else as well. Other than the description of his diceroll, everything else was not clear. An example would be his claim for his vote being a jokevote. Most people didn’t pick up the exact meaning of his post, thus causing again a lot of confusion. After people had started questioning him about his vote again (which is an indication of our uncertainty), it seems to me that he decided to stick with his story again. This is what I feel.
He did not answer the questions addressed to him properly. And no, “Yes, yes, no, short term memory, facepalm” are not satisfactory answers to me. Refusing to answer questions openly is not something I’d considered protown either. ->Near, “Why the heck isn't Sammich answering my questions? Why is he not answering anyone else's questions?”. Sammich, “Maybe because I have other things to do than sit at the computer and speculate about some user rolling a dice?”
Question evasion is something that does bother me, but I can also tell from Sammich's posting that he wasn't really paying all that much attention. I can see this as a case-point against him, but not a huge one, because he wasn't, well, all there? I was hoping we would see better from his replacement, but we really haven't. I don't think that's necessarily indicative of scum, though, because it could be indicative of feeling like you're fighting a losing battle, regardless of what side you are on. I don't like his answers either, but again, townies can be just as stupid in that respect as scum are.
XReyoX wrote:This, I believe, is the main reason I’m suspecting sammich at the moment. Firstly, I’ve never played in a game with a night start before and I don’t see how it is different from other games with a day start. I fail to see why sammich is so excited or overwhelmed by this.
It's actually very different, because those who have night actions often times (but not ALL the time) get to use them. Forgive me for this, I'm not a fan of bringing up power roles but I think it needs to be said...An eagerness to get to night or to start in night is not always a scumtell and can sometimes be a power role-tell. For that reason, lynching someone who has shown a harmless eagerness for night phase is not always a good idea until you have a clear picture of who they might be buddied with if scum, and if you are sure they are not or cannot be a power role. If you don't believe that he is a vanilla townie, you must also consider that he is pro-town, regardless. Just a small point to keep in mind for later.
XReyoX wrote:Avoiding his questions, not contributing, potential lying, the night start comment, roleclaiming and vouching for mafiaplayer, etc…I mean, if he is a target of the scum, he would have been lynched by now I believe. Two votes were what he had got once. I just don’t feel right about this. Perhaps everyone can see through this better than I do. Perhaps I’m too focused and taking those posts the wrong way. There seems to be some apparent reasons I’m missing.
Well, firstly, only one of the list he gives here is an actual case-point and the rest is all circumstantial. I'm just not comfortable with how easily this whole thing ramped up on him, and I am NOT happy that Niv has not done a better job at being a replacement for him. I know Niv can't answer for Sammich, but he could have tried harder.
Conclusion:
I could easily be wrong about Sammich, but he comes off as VI more than scum to me from his posting. If he comes up scum, awesome, I was terribly wrong about him...but if he comes up town, I HIGHLY suggest we look at XReyoX and his replacement come D2.
I just wanted you all to know why I don't like the Sammich wagon. I don't like cases that feel empty to me. Granted, I read everything after it had happened, but still...I just don't feel comfortable with the lynch. There are a couple points that I can agree with on it, but on the whole, I just don't think there's enough for a full out lynch.
