Micro 794: Miss List II (Game Over)

[Mathdino]

I really don't think magna is scum

Why is cult town from your pov

[Chickadee]

Magna I'm paranoid about. But I don't like his idea of the rest of the group picking the list.

Cult is weirdly fixated on me, and I am town reading them for it. I like their refusal to give it up. Cult has had some really good posts.

[Mathdino]

OHHHHH
OK yeah cult is town, I completely forgot that tunneling used to be a factor in their playstyle

In that case yeah i don't have many better ideas for scum from your pov

Maybe Panther?

[Chickadee]

I thought about it. It came down to Magna or Panther for me.

[MagnaofIllusion]

And yeah although math already mentioned this.

I want to know *exactly* what line of reasoning led to this. Because the lynched player not being the one to determine the list has problems both with the fact that scum will inevitably bias the list, and with the fact that a lynched player is less likely to actually be willing to follow through on a plan if it's not a list they came up with.

And one of my big worries in this is some townie potentially deciding to go yolo for one reason or another after we construct a plan and just feeding us false information that we treat as sacrosanct.

Frankly because the cares of the lynched player are much less important than getting information useful to those living Town players left alive. The role of the lynched player (assuming Town) is 100% to communicate to the living players whether the list of 4 is all represented on the Miss List or not. That's all. Remember - the living players are those who have to go forward. Getting a consensus (even if some input is from scum ... it is going to have to be) of what list of 4 to send also provides information going forward as to what players wanted what names on the list. Heck you could even have every non-lynch target player name the 4 they want and do a straight point tally. The point is to either lock in that at least 2 of the 3 names on the list are scum (with Creature being dead) or provide "Can't all be scum together" information for endgame.

As to scum being able to skew the input - um ... that's really irrelevant. Either they make a strong push to make sure Creature their boat anchor slot gets killed and damn at least 2/3 of their other members to PoE very early or give Town information that at least 1 of the 3 (and possibly more) are not scum and give good POE data for the end. Reminds me of how I set up the breaking strategy in the first Cyclical Experiment Large that assured scum got PoEd by endgame (not that it went that long, scum basically folded after it got going).

Remember - a dead Townie today gets 4 scum 1 Town as a list regardless of what checklist Town provides to guide Shoot Creature versus Shoot Carefully Elsewhere.

Of course all of this goes out the window if either

A. Creature is Town (which is unlikely)
B. Stupid Town goes all "YOLO I know better than the rest despite having a great strategy to PoE scum to death"

B seems to be the biggest threat as it stands now. Not sure what can be done to mitigate that.

[BuJaber]

NM's flip sorts Dino as far as I'm concerned.

If he doesn't agree to sacrifice I want to lynch there. But sacrifice is best because it also avoids having to rely on him for the shot.

If Dino is town he then has to sacrifice before LYLO, and then we use his reads to shoot scum at LYLO.


Chick/cult is best lynch if NM refuses to sacrifice.

[BuJaber]

If NM agrees to sacrifice*

[Not_Mafia]

I’ll only sacrifice after MOI does

[BuJaber]

What's the point of 2 people sacrificing again? Wouldn't that mean 2 people die (if both town)?

[Mathdino]

How much of your scumread is based on me being scum with Not_Mafia?

Because if that's literally the extent of it, I could just say "all townies who see both me and Not_Mafia on the list can go ahead and shoot N_M." laden with WIFOM, but it does test your idea.

[BuJaber]

I don't have a solid read on NM. I'm flipping a coin on him to get what I think would be a solid read on you.

I don't get it how would that clear you?

[Mathdino]

Because if we both live through the night, it means we're both town. Magnas scumread on me seems to be entirely based around the idea that I'm bussing Not_Mafia.

[BuJaber]

It still doesn't make sense to me. If you posted that and I got lynched and saw both of you I would sure as shit not risk shooting either of you because one of you could be town and scum put the other's name to fool me.

[Mathdino]

It would also ensure one of us is for sure scum tho
And given that magna is so obsessed with Not_Mafia/me scumteam, I'm saying it would be optimal fmpov to just say "shoot Not_Mafia if you see us both"

If Not_Mafia flips scum, I'll lynch myself tomorrow

[BuJaber]

That wouldn't solve anything if you're town lol

Anyway I suggested we go with your suggestion and having NM sacrifice. In that case we can lynch elsewhere D1.

[Mathdino]

I'm actually kind of disappointed that no one else who's played with Not_Mafia before is realising he's town

[Mathdino]

Frankly because the cares of the lynched player are much less important than getting information useful to those living Town players left alive. The role of the lynched player (assuming Town) is 100% to communicate to the living players whether the list of 4 is all represented on the Miss List or not. That's all. Remember - the living players are those who have to go forward. Getting a consensus (even if some input is from scum ... it is going to have to be) of what list of 4 to send also provides information going forward as to what players wanted what names on the list. Heck you could even have every non-lynch target player name the 4 they want and do a straight point tally. The point is to either lock in that at least 2 of the 3 names on the list are scum (with Creature being dead) or provide "Can't all be scum together" information for endgame.

As to scum being able to skew the input - um ... that's really irrelevant.

That's ridiculous. You're just doing the "YOLO I'm better than everyone else" in reverse.

1. The cares of the lynched player are all that matter, because LITERALLY HALF THE REST OF THE GAME IS SCUM FROM THEIR POV. The lynched player and any dead townies are ALL they can trust. What if the player isn't townreading you?

2. Say I get lynched. The fact that me and my top townread are your top scumreads already proves to me that my reads are significantly better than yours this game. I also have more experience with most of this playerlist, and the fact that you're still not lockscum on Creature REALLY shows how little you know of Creature's scumgame.
So why the fuck should I listen to you?

3. A point tally is going to be won by scum. Town never agrees on anything. Scum have an inherent day advantage here.

You're dangerously naive. If I got you lynched and then tried to force you to use my proposed scumteam, would you do it?

[MagnaofIllusion]

That's ridiculous. You're just doing the "YOLO I'm better than everyone else" in reverse.

1. The cares of the lynched player are all that matter, because LITERALLY HALF THE REST OF THE GAME IS SCUM FROM THEIR POV. The lynched player and any dead townies are ALL they can trust. What if the player isn't townreading you?

2. Say I get lynched. The fact that me and my top townread are your top scumreads already proves to me that my reads are significantly better than yours this game. I also have more experience with most of this playerlist, and the fact that you're still not lockscum on Creature REALLY shows how little you know of Creature's scumgame.
So why the fuck should I listen to you?

3. A point tally is going to be won by scum. Town never agrees on anything. Scum have an inherent day advantage here.

You're dangerously naive. If I got you lynched and then tried to force you to use my proposed scumteam, would you do it?

1. No, they don’t. They are dead. Of course to their perspective half the game is Mafia – that’s the setup. Derp. The point (that you seem incapable of grasping) is that the living players are the ones who are going to have to take the information provided and use it going forward. If you are in a position to be lynched Day 1 your reads and views probably aren’t going to carry any weight for remaining Town on Day 2. That’s how players on this site operate. And you are a prime example of why. You keep spouting off garbage about how good your reads are and how terrible other players are. I’m guessing if I was lynched today and put my reads list down you’d do your derp best to ignore the information provided because “you are good”. Nevermind that you only think you have good reads since actually have no clue since the only card you have confirmed is your own (or everyones if you are scum but then everything you are posting is from a strategic point of view so that eventuality isn’t important in this discussion). Giving clarity to the remaining Town players after the lynch and death tonight (either by list operation or by who the lynched Mafia chose to nominate and which Town died) is much more important than your need to be “right”. I broke a much more complex Large Game set-up than this by providing strong PoE information to Town each day.

2. I’d love for you to get lynched. I don’t particular give a hoot if you think you are god-Mafia Player Supreeme because your attitude this game is “I’m the best you had best listen to me I’m smarter than you”. Again I’ve seen much better players (like Fate for example) with that attitude than you probably are. So feel free to try to protect your ego by thinking I’m not worth listening to. But don’t pretend you are trying to work with your “Townblock” with the piss poor attitude you are showing here.

3. Again you totally miss the point. It doesn’t matter if scum “win” the point tally or not in who gets chosen of the list of 4. Because regardless that list gives Town strong POE information NO MATTER WHO IS ON IT. Take your ego, set it on the shelf and actually put on your thinking cap. Alive Town players get a strong set of PoE information no matter what the makeup of the list going into Night is. And that information starting Day 2 can be used to get a good choice for lynch and sacrifice and a list of three that provides even more information the next day.

[MagnaofIllusion]

I’ll only sacrifice after MOI does

[Mathdino]

Again. You're gonna have a real hard time convincing me your reads are worth following over my own when you're

1. Trying to lynch me

2. Trying to lynch my next top townread

3. Not even lockscumreading Creature

4. Hardtownreading implosion who FMPOV must be scum

Your reads are literally equivalent to rolling the fucking dice FMPOV.

I never said my reads are ZOMGAMAZING. I've played with Not_Mafia, Creature, and CultOfAthena more than you have, and I'm currently townreading you, which is accurate from your POV. Note that those are the only reads that I've displayed a great deal of confidence in. implosion, Bujaber, Panther and Chickadee are all basically "take it or leave it" reads.

The ONLY benefit to the Creature plan is that the lynched player gets to call the scumteam and test their hypothesis. If the scumteam is wrong, the guess was useless. PoEing out a single FOUR PERSON SCUMTEAM is utterly useless given how unlikely those calls are anyway.

Chrissake you're arguing with me over my own fucking strategy here and telling me you have more of a right to tell me how to operate than I do. What if I were scumreading you? Should I still listen to you?

You've shown 0 effort in working with me despite my experience with others, and you've assumed that any indication of confidence in my reads must be either
A. scum who is alignment informed
or
B. a "piss poor attitude" that thinks I'm "god-Mafia Player Supreme" when I can recognise that my reads are, in general, SLIGHTLY better than random, and when I've played with and successfully read half this playerlist more than you have.

[implosion]

implosion who FMPOV must be scum

I never said my reads are ZOMGAMAZING.

implosion, Bujaber, Panther and Chickadee are all basically "take it or leave it" reads

????

[Mathdino]

Cult town
Magna town
Not_Mafia town
Me town
I literally need one town in the 4 of you and I don't choose you, Pikachu
Could be wrong but there's like a 18% chance I'm wrong

[Not_Mafia]

Creature
Implosion
Chickadee
Bujaber 80% Panther 20%

[Mathdino]

Hey Not_Mafia can you sacrifice tonight so I can sheep your reads tomorrow and not be called scum with you repeatedly

[Mathdino]

Wait are we just not going to acknowledge that that was the hammer