Open 712: Elemental Large (Mafia win)

[profii]

I believe havingfitz is a mislynch and there's scum on it.

Do you town read Fitz? Why do you believe it's a mislynch?

- Kop

The way the wagon suddenly built up, basically just because he's been inactive, is really gross.

If Taly is scum I'd practically lock town HavingFitz I think. Good point

[Taly]

What the hell, so I vote to get

Havingfitz's

attention - the second vote by the way, he gets pushed to L-2, and now I'm being pushed?

...OK.

Damn, I've never had a townread get destroyed so quickly in a game before. 1049 and 1050

I'm breaking this up into several posts.

Taly

, Profii, HavingFitz,

JimmyUrquanwhatzit

may be scum.

Where's Creature?
The LilUzi slot is confusing with all those replacements.

This was

Aneninen's

last post.

Profii

was on neither mislynch wagon.

Havingfitz

was on

Flavor Leaf's

mislynch wagon.

Let's start here
VOTE: havingfitz

actually i really dont like this. the self colouring is very LAMIST and also confused me as i glanced through which might have been the point.

OK, first off:

1)

Never use the word LAMIST again. It's just a buzzword that doesn't catch scum or actively detail what you think of someone's view.

2)

I'm "trying to look town" because I am town and I'm looking at people aside from myself to game solve?

Like, are you disliking this because I didn't scumclaim or something? Or are you just trying to find a reason to nitpick at it to provide more for your case?

3)

The point of coloring was to evaluate

Aneninen's

reads, and begin pushing people based off them since he was the NK. I also looked more exclusively at Aneninen because I was unsure about several reads, and I still am, so I looked at that to start generating discussion.

How about, you ask me for explanations and motivations instead of writing off my posts as scum-oriented and pushing me off little value like you did D2?

You are apparently town reading Creature on the sole premise he is posting, which seems weak

After looking at other games of

Creature

, I think the meta on him is usually correct. Plus, his activity is not the FULL reason I townread him, but it's good you make that assumption, discrediting one of my few townreads while you try to find reasons to push me.

_Creature, in this game, has shown that he's not susceptible to pushing someone endlessly, and that he's evaluating multiple people at once to gauge how to approach the given situation. His very thought process strikes me as town.

You are also voting for HF on the basis that I wasnt on mislynchs which again doesn't seem thorough.

Seriously, what is your point? I was doing a Vote-Count Analysis on who was on the mislynch wagons to deduce who was more possibly scum pushing for them. It was based on Aneninen's reads, so I was going to push in a small pool of people to help provide perspective on my view of this game.

You weren't my first push because I was townreading, and that you weren't on a mislynch wagon at the end of the days.

I'm going to re-ISO you and here is what I get...

So, you finally ISO me, in the same post you seemed to have designated where I'm scum or scummy? OK.

1004 - this pinged me, i know this isn't a read per se, but why didnt you just fix your post before you posted, the hammer will have been in your PEdit, so why mention this. Seems contrived.

Looking at those ISO Maps things, I can't really be too critical of anything there, I can see the reasons for the Jimmy lynch.

Try looking at post numbers for 2 hours, and then when you're almost done, you see a BS hammer happen out of nowhere.

I wasn't going to let all the information go to waste for the dayphase in the event I was NKed, so I posted what information was properly created, without fully looking back at the editing mistakes.

Why are you painting this as if it were planned? -_- I made it

ABUNDANTLY

clear that I wanted

INTENT TO BE EXPRESSED

prior to any final vote.

998 ok so you've picked up that KopHerald is meta reading here HavingFitz and you are now voting HF. Let's note that for later.

Thanks for misrepping me and completely confusing my reasons for voting

Havingfitz

as

Kopherald's

reasoning.

I haven't had a strong read on

havingfitz

for the entirety of this game, my vote was to get a reaction from him to help over his wagon to help me with that.

Please, note my vote for later, I've literally pushed all game to try and have my thoughts put out in the open for clarity, but apparently, that's not working right now.

973 is mostly questions and no reads, but you do again make a point about KopHeralds read on HF. Again, noting.

Um... I ask questions to HELP get reads? I think it's a much more valid approach than compiling a weak case against someone solely because you did something that someone said could be a scum thing. -_-

I've also stated in just about every other post my read development, if you have a question,

ASK.

952 interesting bit at the end of this post where you want people to interact with you

LOL! OMG, I'm scummy because I WANT to communicate and work together with people in this game, because that will make solving it much easier?

That's really funny.

Ok, so I feel like Taly, you are the sort of player who sorts people by talking directly to them rather than just assessing the game in general as it rolls on.

Again, this is false. If you looked at any of my votes, or ISO maps, or readslist, I don't JUST talk directly to people, I make my own judgments on top of that, which are BASED around interactions.

Plus, why is it weird that I do talk directly to people? Why is unclear or muddled communication helpful at all in this game?

I also feel like you've jumped on HavingFitz without a real interaction with him so that seems incongruent to me and it makes me think that's a better place for my vote to be right now

So....

1)

You don't ask why I voted for

havingfitz

.

2)

You jumped on

havingfitz's

wagon yourself WITHOUT reasoning, and you admittedly sheeped. 1042]1042

3)

You jumped off the moment

Ausuka

said she thought it was a mislynch wagon, and that scum could be on it.

VOTE: Taly

4)

And you make this post SOLELY to scumpaint me, misconstrue my point, and then vote me.

This... If this is town, it needs to know that this is not helping game progress at all. I VOTED for

havingfitz

to gain more meaningful interaction with him.

The day just started, tell me about the scum motivation.

[Taly]

I believe havingfitz is a mislynch and there's scum on it.

Do you town read Fitz? Why do you believe it's a mislynch?

- Kop

The way the wagon suddenly built up, basically just because he's been inactive, is really gross.

If Taly is scum I'd practically lock town HavingFitz I think. Good point

Thanks for yet ANOTHER dichotomy, I thought you believed

havingfitz

was a good vote? I mean, you sheeped

Kopherald

in 1042

VOTE: profii

I believe havingfitz is a mislynch and there's scum on it.

This was all it took for you to jump off a wagon,

((after pushing it to L-2 without stating it))

- and to go after someone voting on it, without trying to get gauge for thoughts.

This is opportunistic.
This is what distancing is.
This is trying to make yourself look less 'bad', due to an opinion of one person.
This is backtracking on a push.

[Taly]

Also, pro-damn-tip to the playerlist:

If your vote pushes someone to L-2, and specially L-1; ANNOUNCE IT!

If someone can be hammered, EXPRESS INTENT! Seriously, IT IS NOT HARD PEOPLE.

IT IS NOT.

WE HAVE HAD TWO MISLYNCHES BECAUSE PEOPLE WERE TRIGGER HAPPY AND HAMMERED PRIOR TO A STATED TIME.

[profii]

you seem to take this personally based on flicking through that wall post but I'll respond to the key points now...

[Taly]

you seem to take this personally based on flicking through that wall post but I'll respond to the key points now...

No, I actually seldom, if ever take things personally in Mafia. I don't get angry.

I get passionate. I get indignant. I bold, underline, and do caps sometimes to emphasize my biggest points.

But I don't take things personally, if you feel like I'm being too intense, then please let me know and I'll quickly change my tune.

[profii]

ok well let's call it passionate then. I am the opposite of you, I am cool as a cucumber at all times. If that helps you take tone from my posts, the great.

Let's go:

1) Never use the word LAMIST again. It's just a buzzword that doesn't catch scum or actively detail what you think of someone's view.
2) I'm "trying to look town" because I am town and I'm looking at people aside from myself to game solve?

Like, are you disliking this because I didn't scumclaim or something? Or are you just trying to find a reason to nitpick at it to provide more for your case?

3) The point of coloring was to evaluate Aneninen's reads, and begin pushing people based off them since he was the NK. I also looked more exclusively at Aneninen because I was unsure about several reads, and I still am, so I looked at that to start generating discussion.

How about, you ask me for explanations and motivations instead of writing off my posts as scum-oriented and pushing me off little value like you did D2?

I flicked through the thread initially and saw a HF wagon. I saw your colour coding thing and saw me and him in white. I obviously know I'm town so that made me think well HF seems like a good wagon. Sometimes I can't be bothered making an entire extra case because it's pointless if it's already been done so I just sheeped and put the vote down to put a reaction in from HF.

When I actually read your post properly I realised you coloured yourself in and you are not conf town at all. We are all here to try and appear town - that is literally the point of this game - but colouring yourself in the same as a flip was a bit iffy. LAMIST one could say. Buzzword or not, it's true.

And, if I think you are scum and I acknowledge that you like to interact directly with people, I'm not going to interact directly with you. I'm going to vote you and get a reaction out of you. Annoying scum makes them slip. Annoying town makes them slip, either way it helps everyone read people.
I seem to have achieved that without a great deal of effort I think, so I'm going to re-read you (and probably avoid asking you too many questions, you'd like that...)

Seriously, what is your point?

[In response to me saying: You are also voting for HF on the basis that I wasnt on mislynchs which again doesn't seem thorough.]

I would say a town thing to do is to go make a case on everything someone is doing, you have picked on elements of my play which seems shoehorning where you want your vote to be.

Try looking at post numbers for 2 hours, and then when you're almost done, you see a BS hammer happen out of nowhere

it was a relatively minor point in the grand scheme of things, it just irritated me. If you go to the effort of doing everything you did, surely you'd go to the effort of making it perfecto. Your post, your call.

I haven't had a strong read on havingfitz for the entirety of this game, my vote was to get a reaction from him to help over his wagon to help me with that.

as above, so was my vote.

if you have a question, ASK.

as above, I'll do me, you do you. Sorry.

LOL! OMG, I'm scummy because I WANT to communicate and work together with people in this game, because that will make solving it much easier?

That's really funny.

[In response to me posting: 952 interesting bit at the end of this post where you want people to interact with you]

Apologies on this one - I suppose I could have elaborated further- we've obviously established you like direct interactions, but my point in that post was you didnt delve into dealing with HF directly and you ended up voting him. I still think voting on VCA only without really going into the HF ISO and finding a case is a bit suspect so I'm not being convinced to remove my vote rn but if you want to OMGUS now, that's ok, as i said, you do you.

So....
1) You don't ask why I voted for havingfitz.
2) You jumped on havingfitz's wagon yourself WITHOUT reasoning, and you admittedly sheeped. 1042]1042
3) You jumped off the moment Ausuka said she thought it was a mislynch wagon, and that scum could be on it.

1) by voting and saying you haven't given a reason, is basically the same as asking, you've not answered which makes me think you dont really have a good case.
2) Partly based on your dodgy colouring in - my bad i should have read more carefully
3) She made a good point that there is likely scum in the wagon, i seem to have a case on someone in the wagon, so seems like a better place to vote than HF

Just for clarity, if your wagon doesn't take off and the HF wagon wavers, I'll put my vote back to get a reaction out of him to sort him, so neither of you are in the clear for me.

4) I'd call it making a case, but I expect you to try and discredit it. I'd give you a 5/10 for trying.

[Taly]

ok well let's call it passionate then. I am the opposite of you, I am cool as a cucumber at all times. If that helps you take tone from my posts, the great.

Let's go:

1) Never use the word LAMIST again. It's just a buzzword that doesn't catch scum or actively detail what you think of someone's view.
2) I'm "trying to look town" because I am town and I'm looking at people aside from myself to game solve?

Like, are you disliking this because I didn't scumclaim or something? Or are you just trying to find a reason to nitpick at it to provide more for your case?

3) The point of coloring was to evaluate Aneninen's reads, and begin pushing people based off them since he was the NK. I also looked more exclusively at Aneninen because I was unsure about several reads, and I still am, so I looked at that to start generating discussion.

How about, you ask me for explanations and motivations instead of writing off my posts as scum-oriented and pushing me off little value like you did D2?

I flicked through the thread initially and saw a HF wagon. I saw your colour coding thing and saw me and him in white. I obviously know I'm town so that made me think well HF seems like a good wagon. Sometimes I can't be bothered making an entire extra case because it's pointless if it's already been done so I just sheeped and put the vote down to put a reaction in from HF.

Well, I obviously know I'm town too. The point of the post wasn't to say

"YAY, I'M TOWN GUYS, BYE."

I was looking at data in the thread and establishing a discussion from that. And so far, your response to me looking at

havingfitz,

and wondering about you, has merely reaffirmed the suspicions of your mentality in this game early D2.

You, seemingly deliberately, ignored the point of my post to find an excuse to discredit or scumread me. I mean, why else would you hop on a wagon and then jump off the second it gets the slightest amount of pushback?

Why else would you NOT provide thoughts over your sheep-vote 1042, but devalue someone else's valid reasoning behind a vote not even a page later?

And plus, I made my thoughts clear on my vote towards

havingfitz

, why did you just throw a vote on him, pushing him to L-2, without even trying to ask questions or discuss things yourself?

When I actually read your post properly I realised you coloured yourself in and you are not conf town at all.

This makes no sense, you're pushing me because I'm looking for discussion about people outside of myself? What?

I never just said

"hey guys, don't bother interacting with me!"

Are you telling me I'm scum because I didn't admit to be scum? ....What the hell?

We are all here to try and appear town - that is literally the point of this game - but colouring yourself in the same as a flip was a bit iffy. LAMIST one could say. Buzzword or not, it's true.

Um... Because I'm pretty sure when I die, you are going to see nothing but green? If you tell me you wouldn't do the same, I wouldn't believe it, regardless of alignment.

But it's also good to know that that is the ONLY thing you like at, ignoring my reasoning, and my vote. -_-

And, if I think you are scum and I acknowledge that you like to interact directly with people, I'm not going to interact directly with you. I'm going to vote you and get a reaction out of you. Annoying scum makes them slip. Annoying town makes them slip, either way it helps everyone read people.
I seem to have achieved that without a great deal of effort I think, so I'm going to re-read you (and probably avoid asking you too many questions, you'd like that...)

Wow... Do I have to explain to you, how unhelpful that approach to this game is? You're literally pushing valuable discussion away, in favor of YOUR own reads and agenda.

Communication prevents scum from maneuvering against town. The fact that you're going to ignore pieces of conversation, despite the importance you deem it, is nothing but scum-motivated in my eyes.

You're openly trying to derail conversation.

Seriously, what is your point?

[In response to me saying: You are also voting for HF on the basis that I wasnt on mislynchs which again doesn't seem thorough.]

I would say a town thing to do is to go make a case on everything someone is doing, you have picked on elements of my play which seems shoehorning where you want your vote to be.

OK, you're intentionally mixing 2 different things at once.

1)

When it came to

havingfitz

, I didn't have a defined case, I used basic reasoning, and I voted to apply pressure for him to engage with me, since that hasn't really happened much yet.

2)

When it came to

YOU

, I've made my thoughts and view of you

EXPLICITLY

clear for literally the past 2 dayphases. I've responded to you, I've voted you, I've line-by-lined you, I've ISOed, I've given reads on you...

There is no other conceivable way I can justify a vote on you beyond what I've already stated.

And don't come for me about not building cases on my scumreads, I've done that for all my votes in this game, and when I haven't, I did it to push my reads. That's a lot more than what I can say for your vote on

havingfitz

.

Try looking at post numbers for 2 hours, and then when you're almost done, you see a BS hammer happen out of nowhere

it was a relatively minor point in the grand scheme of things, it just irritated me. If you go to the effort of doing everything you did, surely you'd go to the effort of making it perfecto. Your post, your call.

>_> I had no idea when twilight would end, that's why I didn't take much time to edit it. Plus, I didn't think the linking was that terrible until after I posted it.

It was human error.

I haven't had a strong read on havingfitz for the entirety of this game, my vote was to get a reaction from him to help over his wagon to help me with that.

as above, so was my vote.

if you have a question, ASK.

as above, I'll do me, you do you. Sorry.

LOL! OMG, I'm scummy because I WANT to communicate and work together with people in this game, because that will make solving it much easier?

That's really funny.

[In response to me posting: 952 interesting bit at the end of this post where you want people to interact with you]

Apologies on this one - I suppose I could have elaborated further- we've obviously established you like direct interactions, but my point in that post was you didnt delve into dealing with HF directly and you ended up voting him. I still think voting on VCA only without really going into the HF ISO and finding a case is a bit suspect so I'm not being convinced to remove my vote rn but if you want to OMGUS now, that's ok, as i said, you do you.

...Don't say OMGUS again either. That's a term solely meant to minimize someone's point.

And why were you digging into my vote and finding reasons to suspect my posts instead of engaging with them? ....This cannot be scummier in my eyes, genuinely.

But while we're on this topic again, why did you sheep-vote

Havingfitz

? Where was your ISO on him? Why did you jump off the wagon?

So....
1) You don't ask why I voted for havingfitz.
2) You jumped on havingfitz's wagon yourself WITHOUT reasoning, and you admittedly sheeped. 1042]1042
3) You jumped off the moment Ausuka said she thought it was a mislynch wagon, and that scum could be on it.

1) by voting and saying you haven't given a reason, is basically the same as asking, you've not answered which makes me think you dont really have a good case.
2) Partly based on your dodgy colouring in - my bad i should have read more carefully
3) She made a good point that there is likely scum in the wagon, i seem to have a case on someone in the wagon, so seems like a better place to vote than HF

Just for clarity, if your wagon doesn't take off and the HF wagon wavers, I'll put my vote back to get a reaction out of him to sort him, so neither of you are in the clear for me.

4) I'd call it making a case, but I expect you to try and discredit it. I'd give you a 5/10 for trying.

1) BECAUSE IT WASN'T A CASE, IT WAS A PUSH.

If you took more time to read 1051, you might have realized that.

2)

Yes, because I'm conftown and nobody should ever bother with me in this game.

Yup.... I've been caught.

3)

That's a bad reason to just flip off a wagon and come for the people on it. Before a wagon discussion happened, you derailed it.

And no, this post DOES NOT entail that you think both of us are unclear:

I believe havingfitz is a mislynch and there's scum on it.

Do you town read Fitz? Why do you believe it's a mislynch?

- Kop

The way the wagon suddenly built up, basically just because he's been inactive, is really gross.

If Taly is scum I'd practically lock town HavingFitz I think. Good point

You literally set-up a dichotomy to where, upon one of us flipping, that means the other is definitely the other alignment. If you were town, and had ANY lack of confidence in your reads on both of us... WHY would you make this statement?

And why would you hop off my wagon if it doesn't get traction? So, someone might not be lynched, then you stop trying to voice your opinions?

This tells me you're waiting for a wagon strong enough in pull to where you can just flip someone. It's opportunistic because it doesn't sound like your reasons are genuine.

4)

Thanks again

Profii

, I needed yet another person in this game to tell me, that my responses, pushes, and opinions, meant nothing. Yay! I don't think I've ever mindlessly been discredited this much in Mafia before.

[texcat]

Taly, can you explain your town read of Profii late in the day yesterday? I'm confused. You were hard scum reading him all day yesterday and then at the 10th or 11th hour you suddenly moved to town reading him. I can understand that perhaps the Jimmy lynch looked marginally better than the Profii lynch, but you said that Profii was town.

[Taly]

Taly, can you explain your town read of Profii late in the day yesterday? I'm confused. You were hard scum reading him all day yesterday and then at the 10th or 11th hour you suddenly moved to town reading him. I can understand that perhaps the Jimmy lynch looked marginally better than the Profii lynch, but you said that Profii was town.

I stated that

profii

was town, but I wasn't confident at the point of the hammer. I ISO mapped

profii

and it helped me understand his view of the game at the time.

Also, I wasn't sure about

Sando

or

Lil Uzi Vert's

votes, and I asked about them to gain a better understanding, but I don't recall getting a full response. Correct me if I'm wrong.

Ausuka

and

Almost50

also already stated that they weren't willing to push

profii

, and I figured I should reread to see what they saw.

But right now, after recent posts, I'm beginning to realize that I may have been correct in my original D2 read on him. :/

[profii]

Hmmmm ok

UNVOTE: Taly

You can be town

[Sando]

Also, I wasn't sure about Sando or Lil Uzi Vert's votes, and I asked about them to gain a better understanding, but I don't recall getting a full response. Correct me if I'm wrong.

I typically go out of my way to talk through at least my initial vote on someone, this was no exception. You asked "assuming I was gauging for reaction", and I wasn't gauging for reaction, I felt he was a good person to focus mine and towns attention on while we waited for Jimmy to respond to his wagon.

If I provide reasoning in my vote post and people subsequently ask for reasoning without referencing what's already there, I'm probably going to ignore them, or sarcastically link them to my initial post.

[texcat]

Hmmmm ok

UNVOTE: Taly

You can be town

Can you tell us what specifically changed your mind?

[Lil Uzi Vert]

Only one doc left. So we could have a counterclaim now. And either the doc got really lucky or scum and SK both killed Aneninen.

SCUM CLAIM!

Wanting to either confirm me as Doctor or our the real one for them to kill.

NOBODY COUNTER TODAY!

VOTE: texcat

Not following this and I don’t understand why your latest posts seem really lazy. tex was just saying the obvious. There’s only one doc left and someone could counterclaim.

Can you start actually engaging with the game and not just mindlessly tunneling?

[Lil Uzi Vert]

And there is zero way I am getting into the debate about A50. There is no way that he should be considered for todays lynch.

- Kop

Indeed. Still think he’s town.

[Lil Uzi Vert]

VOTE: profii

Asuka, talk to me. Wagon speed isn’t alignment indicative. How a fast a wagon grows doesn’t tell you anything about the player being wagoned. There are solid reasons out there to vote Fitz that aren’t activity in my opinion.

[Ausuka]

It wouldn't be AI if Fitz was a wagon on a real scummy player. But he's a boring lurker wagon and on those progress is generally very slow, especially on scum lurkers. I think he's been identified as a possible mislynch for today.

[Ausuka]

What do you think of kopherald?

[profii]

Hmmmm ok

UNVOTE: Taly

You can be town

Can you tell us what specifically changed your mind?

Despite the conflict I feel like we were both voting HF for the same reason (pressure push to see what he comes up with)
And I also think we were making similar cases against each other (sort of quite picky at each other’s posts)

I am guessing if I kept going at him he would keep coming back and my experience is big 1v1s like that tends to be TvT so I am cutting it short and calling it that rather than waste everyone’s time over the next 3 pages of us bickering

[Sando]

I am guessing if I kept going at him he would keep coming back and my experience is big 1v1s like that tends to be TvT so I am cutting it short and calling it that rather than waste everyone’s time over the next 3 pages of us bickering

Not sure I buy this, you commented yesterday about how me and Taly were very likely to be TvT, and then you pulled the same manoeuvre I did and want to pass it off as TvT again?

What do you think of kopherald?

See Kopherald in the context of the Fitz wagon, you've got a person who it feels like they've been identified as the ML target, which Kopherald jumps into. End of yesterday puts a person who hasn't posted at L-1, which achieves nothing more than him being quickhammered. As I've said before, you don't throw a L-1 on someone who has basically stopped posting on the site for pressure, that makes no sense. The more I think about the end of yesterday and today the worse Kopherald looks to me.

[profii]

So I consistently read fractious 1v1s as TvT

I’ve never seen a SvT bitch fight on this forum

So shoot me




No wait that’s a bad pun for this game

[profii]

While I’m here we still have nothing from HF

VOTE: HavingFitz


That’s 4/6 so L-2 I believe

[Sando]

No I'm saying you had this same information yesterday and you even commented on it, so your little tete-a-tete with Taly seems manufactured and insincere.

You read him Town for getting into a massive 1v1 yesterday, so you get into a massive 1v1 with him today before deciding to read him town again. Yeah I don't believe the sincerity of that.

[profii]

Oh right gotcha

Well I referenced the things I felt could be scummy at the time and you can call it manufactured if you want so I’m not going to reiterate it - you’re scum reading me so it’s kinda expected

[Sando]

Yes, I'm pointing it out for others benefit mostly.